Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2023-06-09
09:08 unpx jonsykkel: I wonder how your editor will look like, was looking at the acme editor just for fun
~ 36 minutes ~
09:45 jonsykkel emac/vim/acme etc might be ok for word2003 replacment but thats not wat u need for code
09:45 jonsykkel they al make the same mistake of giving u a mspaint to edit 3d models
09:45 jonsykkel rather than a 3ds max where u can pull the vertexes and let computer do the rasterization
09:45 jonsykkel in hypotetical ast editor u move expressions around and let computer do whitespace indenting formating etc
09:45 jonsykkel 0 valid reason to ever do that manualy
09:46 jonsykkel also, have to move hand to mouse at any point = not peak performance. i simply dont have time for that shit
09:46 jonsykkel tho that introduces one tricky problem to solve, often u want tree-aware movement (next/prev elt, 1lvl in/out etc), but other times u want to "point at screen" to go to a specific place
09:46 jonsykkel imo no good way to do without mouse
09:52 unpx I agree on the mouse and would prefer having the big rows like Space-cadet keyboard, what I liked of acme is that it is flat and not really specific. Instead you are looking for a specific editor that does exactly and maybe only that editing, and just editing sexp for what I understood.
09:56 unpx Maybe it's just me trying to rethinking everything at once so everything is blended together instead of pieces spread around
10:00 jonsykkel well, since existence of lisp makes it clear that any code (and a bunch of other stuf rly) is really a tre structure, u can use the same tool for any code/etc
10:01 jonsykkel so "sexp" here has a wide definition
10:01 jonsykkel if someone has a gun to ur head making u write js, just gota write the "renderer" for it, once. then u get the same exact interface
10:01 jonsykkel which is trivial, maybe unless ur doing c++ or smth
10:05 jonsykkel and the sexp editor needs som facilitys for editing stuf thats actualy text as well, inside strings and comments etc. so it can still be "1 piece", open .txt = same interface as editing a big string
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
11:11 jonsykkel http://zzz.st/up/EQhT2Gqy/oke.mp4
~ 15 minutes ~
11:27 unpx :o
~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~
12:40 asciilifeform jonsykkel: very neat -- loox like you rediscovered xerox's structure editor
12:40 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2020-08-06 asciilifeform: theoretically interesting -- there were concepts in interlisp that never appeared in mit cadr + successors (bolix etc) -- e.g. the 'structure editor'
12:41 asciilifeform moar screenshits for the curious.
12:42 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026843 << mous imho entirely good for moving sexprs around (if we had w/ what)
12:42 bitbot Logged on 2023-06-10 09:46:49 jonsykkel: imo no good way to do without mouse
12:43 asciilifeform the 'text file paradigm' is utter shite for structure-editable lisp tho ( as noted in ancient thread, that asciilifeform for sumreason can't immed. find, by phf et al -- e.g. comments are spuriously bound to a line of txt, rather than properly 'attached' to a sexpr )
12:44 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026837 << quite accurate
12:44 bitbot Logged on 2023-06-10 09:45:27 jonsykkel: they al make the same mistake of giving u a mspaint to edit 3d models
12:46 jonsykkel indeed, exact conclusion i came to also, theres at least 3 diff use cases of comments: temporarily disabling code (seen in vid), attaching to a expression (rendered above or at end of line depending), and detached stand alone coment (license at top etc)
12:46 jonsykkel wat is needed is simply to store this aditional info along with code
12:48 jonsykkel 1 simple way is when save file, "render" the s-expr that sbcl etc can eat, then put metadata in botom of file as a big comment
12:48 asciilifeform the storing is arguably 'easy part' ( e.g. in place of (launch-missiles london) , (comment (launch-missiles london)) ) -- the rendering is the tricky bit
12:51 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026841 << largely on account of inept programmers, mouse ended up 'good only for clicking hyperlinks'. dun have to be that way tho
12:51 bitbot Logged on 2023-06-10 09:46:36 jonsykkel: also, have to move hand to mouse at any point = not peak performance. i simply dont have time for that shit
12:52 jonsykkel mous alright when ur hand is already on it, but most often mine, at least, isnt (no, its on keybord!!)
12:53 asciilifeform there's no getting away from the fact of people having only 2 hands
12:53 jonsykkel maybe if could hav eyebal tracker that works
12:53 * asciilifeform views mouse as 'reading' gadget, not touches it when writing
12:54 asciilifeform jonsykkel: crapple reportedly is pushing eye trackers, imho quick path to discovering entirely new class of repetitive grunt injuries lol
12:55 jonsykkel ye problem arises though when writing at line20 and need to jump to line57 col46
12:56 asciilifeform thing is, on a properly-programmed comp, one shouldn't ever ~want~ to explicitly 'go to ln 57'
12:56 asciilifeform but rather 'lemme see the end of this sexpr' or 'let's see where launch-missiles is defined/used' etc
12:57 * asciilifeform only ever 'go to ln 57' as result of idiot compile-pray-debug cycle tooling, e.g. compilers which shit out ln #s in eggogs
12:57 jonsykkel sure, but thats another use case, i have key bound to move between instances of symbol under cursor etc, very useful
12:57 asciilifeform ought be able to, somehow, do that, w/out losing context
12:58 jonsykkel im not talking about explicitly typing in line numbers etc
12:58 asciilifeform ( y'know, the thing the concept of 'window' was ~originally~ for )
12:58 asciilifeform a
12:58 jonsykkel just this thing were somtimes u want to go to an exact place u are looking at with eyes
12:58 jonsykkel that is "far away" from cursor
12:59 asciilifeform right, but almost always there's a moar intelligent way to describe the place than 'far away, right-there'
12:59 asciilifeform i.e. one that'd req. fewer bits of input from hands
12:59 jonsykkel probably true
13:11 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-06-10#1027281 << hold some key on kb, prog starts highlighting thing it thinks ur looking at, release key when happy, cursor jump there
13:11 dulapbot Logged on 2023-06-10 12:52:43 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: crapple reportedly is pushing eye trackers, imho quick path to discovering entirely new class of repetitive grunt injuries lol
13:12 jonsykkel seems like RGI avoider delux, if could have tracker that works
← 2023-06-09