09:08 |
unpx |
jonsykkel: I wonder how your editor will look like, was looking at the acme editor just for fun |
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~ 36 minutes ~ |
09:45 |
jonsykkel |
emac/vim/acme etc might be ok for word2003 replacment but thats not wat u need for code |
09:45 |
jonsykkel |
they al make the same mistake of giving u a mspaint to edit 3d models |
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↖ |
09:45 |
jonsykkel |
rather than a 3ds max where u can pull the vertexes and let computer do the rasterization |
09:45 |
jonsykkel |
in hypotetical ast editor u move expressions around and let computer do whitespace indenting formating etc |
09:45 |
jonsykkel |
0 valid reason to ever do that manualy |
09:46 |
jonsykkel |
also, have to move hand to mouse at any point = not peak performance. i simply dont have time for that shit |
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09:46 |
jonsykkel |
tho that introduces one tricky problem to solve, often u want tree-aware movement (next/prev elt, 1lvl in/out etc), but other times u want to "point at screen" to go to a specific place |
09:46 |
jonsykkel |
imo no good way to do without mouse |
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09:52 |
unpx |
I agree on the mouse and would prefer having the big rows like Space-cadet keyboard, what I liked of acme is that it is flat and not really specific. Instead you are looking for a specific editor that does exactly and maybe only that editing, and just editing sexp for what I understood. |
09:56 |
unpx |
Maybe it's just me trying to rethinking everything at once so everything is blended together instead of pieces spread around |
10:00 |
jonsykkel |
well, since existence of lisp makes it clear that any code (and a bunch of other stuf rly) is really a tre structure, u can use the same tool for any code/etc |
10:01 |
jonsykkel |
so "sexp" here has a wide definition |
10:01 |
jonsykkel |
if someone has a gun to ur head making u write js, just gota write the "renderer" for it, once. then u get the same exact interface |
10:01 |
jonsykkel |
which is trivial, maybe unless ur doing c++ or smth |
10:05 |
jonsykkel |
and the sexp editor needs som facilitys for editing stuf thats actualy text as well, inside strings and comments etc. so it can still be "1 piece", open .txt = same interface as editing a big string |
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~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~ |
11:11 |
jonsykkel |
http://zzz.st/up/EQhT2Gqy/oke.mp4 |
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~ 15 minutes ~ |
11:27 |
unpx |
:o |
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~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~ |
12:40 |
asciilifeform |
jonsykkel: very neat -- loox like you rediscovered xerox's structure editor |
12:40 |
dulapbot |
(asciilifeform) 2020-08-06 asciilifeform: theoretically interesting -- there were concepts in interlisp that never appeared in mit cadr + successors (bolix etc) -- e.g. the 'structure editor' |
12:41 |
asciilifeform |
moar screenshits for the curious. |
12:42 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026843 << mous imho entirely good for moving sexprs around (if we had w/ what) |
12:42 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2023-06-10 09:46:49 jonsykkel: imo no good way to do without mouse |
12:43 |
asciilifeform |
the 'text file paradigm' is utter shite for structure-editable lisp tho ( as noted in ancient thread, that asciilifeform for sumreason can't immed. find, by phf et al -- e.g. comments are spuriously bound to a line of txt, rather than properly 'attached' to a sexpr ) |
12:44 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026837 << quite accurate |
12:44 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2023-06-10 09:45:27 jonsykkel: they al make the same mistake of giving u a mspaint to edit 3d models |
12:46 |
jonsykkel |
indeed, exact conclusion i came to also, theres at least 3 diff use cases of comments: temporarily disabling code (seen in vid), attaching to a expression (rendered above or at end of line depending), and detached stand alone coment (license at top etc) |
12:46 |
jonsykkel |
wat is needed is simply to store this aditional info along with code |
12:48 |
jonsykkel |
1 simple way is when save file, "render" the s-expr that sbcl etc can eat, then put metadata in botom of file as a big comment |
12:48 |
asciilifeform |
the storing is arguably 'easy part' ( e.g. in place of (launch-missiles london) , (comment (launch-missiles london)) ) -- the rendering is the tricky bit |
12:51 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026841 << largely on account of inept programmers, mouse ended up 'good only for clicking hyperlinks'. dun have to be that way tho |
12:51 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2023-06-10 09:46:36 jonsykkel: also, have to move hand to mouse at any point = not peak performance. i simply dont have time for that shit |
12:52 |
jonsykkel |
mous alright when ur hand is already on it, but most often mine, at least, isnt (no, its on keybord!!) |
12:53 |
asciilifeform |
there's no getting away from the fact of people having only 2 hands |
12:53 |
jonsykkel |
maybe if could hav eyebal tracker that works |
12:53 |
* |
asciilifeform views mouse as 'reading' gadget, not touches it when writing |
12:54 |
asciilifeform |
jonsykkel: crapple reportedly is pushing eye trackers, imho quick path to discovering entirely new class of repetitive grunt injuries lol |
12:55 |
jonsykkel |
ye problem arises though when writing at line20 and need to jump to line57 col46 |
12:56 |
asciilifeform |
thing is, on a properly-programmed comp, one shouldn't ever ~want~ to explicitly 'go to ln 57' |
12:56 |
asciilifeform |
but rather 'lemme see the end of this sexpr' or 'let's see where launch-missiles is defined/used' etc |
12:57 |
* |
asciilifeform only ever 'go to ln 57' as result of idiot compile-pray-debug cycle tooling, e.g. compilers which shit out ln #s in eggogs |
12:57 |
jonsykkel |
sure, but thats another use case, i have key bound to move between instances of symbol under cursor etc, very useful |
12:57 |
asciilifeform |
ought be able to, somehow, do that, w/out losing context |
12:58 |
jonsykkel |
im not talking about explicitly typing in line numbers etc |
12:58 |
asciilifeform |
( y'know, the thing the concept of 'window' was ~originally~ for ) |
12:58 |
asciilifeform |
a |
12:58 |
jonsykkel |
just this thing were somtimes u want to go to an exact place u are looking at with eyes |
12:58 |
jonsykkel |
that is "far away" from cursor |
12:59 |
asciilifeform |
right, but almost always there's a moar intelligent way to describe the place than 'far away, right-there' |
12:59 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. one that'd req. fewer bits of input from hands |
12:59 |
jonsykkel |
probably true |
13:11 |
jonsykkel |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-06-10#1027281 << hold some key on kb, prog starts highlighting thing it thinks ur looking at, release key when happy, cursor jump there |
13:11 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2023-06-10 12:52:43 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: crapple reportedly is pushing eye trackers, imho quick path to discovering entirely new class of repetitive grunt injuries lol |
13:12 |
jonsykkel |
seems like RGI avoider delux, if could have tracker that works |