#ossasepia | 2020-03-13

lobbes: that "or something like that" is quite the hedging.

~ 6 hours 52 minutes ~

10:34

diana_coman: Mircea Popescu will be publishing a closing statement for S.QNTR http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147793

~ 2 hours 30 minutes ~

13:05

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020695 << apologies for only adding my thoughts now, i was running around all of yesterday doing errands/shopping for the property and by the time i got home i was too tired to do much more than catch up on the discussion and process internally

13:05

Logged on 2020-03-12 16:45:15 diana_coman: ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack - do you care to say your mind on this, at all?

13:05

the night before i woke up at 4:30 in the morning because i couldn't sleep. i checked the logs and that's when i saw mp's article. it was a weird feeling, a lot seemed to be happening at once. in fiat news the coronavirus hysteria continued and appeared to be escalating, fiat markets were crashing, and even btc had dropped another 1k against the usd (which, as BingoBoingo later pointed out on [http://qntra.net/20

13:05

20/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/][Qntra], i immediately correlated with mp's announcement)

13:06

http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ < link in complete form

13:06

on top of that, all this was happening in my first week in a new country, in my new life without a steady fiat income. it felt a bit like the sky was falling but it also made me feel damn lucky for getting out of the US when i did (before who knows what kind of travel ban might have prevented or postponed by escape), and for selling a large chunk of my fiat stocks to buy the property and set aside a nest egg befo

13:06

re the market crash, etc.

13:06

after reassuring myself that i have what's needed for basic survival my thoughts quickly turned to what i would *do*, and what would become of the republic, this thing for which i have rearranged my life to become a part of

13:06

mp was like the father all of us orphans never had, and since finding trilema and the logs i have grown more than i ever could have expected, or even knew was possible (and from the age of 30 onwards no less). i don't know what my life would be like without mp as the living example but it's not something i even want to think about

13:06

Logged on 2020-03-12 18:17:36 diana_coman: jfw: the reason I'm not providing you with "the definition" is that I doubt it will be any help if the detailed, documented and interacted-with live example can't help.

13:07

in general i agree with the sentiment already expressed. that there's no reason for operations to not continue, but that things will be different

13:07

my interpretation is also not that the man has retired completely, but that he feels that if there's any hope of any of us becoming men he needs to cut us loose. throw the kid in the pool so he'll learn to swim

13:07

and he has left us with a tremendous amount of support (trilema and the logs, including personal interactions with each of us). if at this point we can't continue to republic in his absence then we don't deserve the republic and it is indeed true that it cannot be constructed

13:08

for myself, i plan to continue to republic, which i understand as, stop working for the enemy, stop collecting your paycheck from a pantsuit HR department, stop half-assing and waiting around to be told what to do like a wage slave, and find your own way, with others like you

13:08

(trilema) 2019-08-24 mircea_popescu: nor is that any kind of an exhaustive list. build a 3d art studio if you fucking feel like it, hire two or twelve dozen +ev animators to make things. buy some real estate for rental/airbnb-ing and run the damned thing as your castle, buy a buncha cab medallions do that, pretty much ~anything~ can be it.

13:08

(trilema) 2019-08-24 mircea_popescu: if you'd be interested in helping out on that front, it'll prolly be best if you actually get involved in the partnership outright. none of this "fix the website copy" "helping", erryone wants to do the "helping" of employees whereas republic needs independent men not wage slave wannabe's.

13:08

as for mp-wp, i plan to continue to work on it only if mp or others want me to. up until now mp was the primary client and so the roadmap was shaped by his input and requirements. (although the recent embedded vpatch plugin and code shelf ideas came from diana_coman)

13:08

i will comment on trilema to see what he would like me to do, and if he's no longer interested then i will survey everyone here. perhaps i'll see about using it to stand up a website for my bnb business, maybe write a calendar plugin for it to handle bookings/reservations

13:10

<billymg> http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ < link in complete form << Sorry, but this error message doesn't parse for me.

13:11

BingoBoingo: my previous line got cut in two, and so the link was split into two lines

13:11

i.e. not "clickable" for those reading the logs

13:12

billymg: Ah, ty. The connection to my desk did it's change ip dance and your the start of your speaking didn't make it to my irc client's display

13:15

BingoBoingo: yup, np

13:18

as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)

13:18

feedbot

http://younghands.club/2020/03/13/rmd-week-19-review-mar-7-13th-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- RMD week 19 review, Mar 7-13th, 2020

13:19

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020648 - is there a literary reference in there I'm missing ?

13:19

Logged on 2020-03-12 05:20:57 diana_coman: perhaps one way to see this is that here's a mighty wall, after all.

13:19

hi billymg! I'm getting caught up on your lines now.

13:21

and i will continue to keep my ears open for outreach in this way, since currently i don't think there's any other way i can support the OS project without getting in the way of the heavy hitters already working on it, outside perhaps testing candidate builds once it's at that point

13:22

hola dorian, sounds good

13:36

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020894 - I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I

13:36

have to say something.

13:36

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:23:17 billymg: the night before i woke up at 4:30 in the morning because i couldn't sleep. i checked the logs and that's when i saw mp's article. it was a weird feeling, a lot seemed to be happening at once. in fiat news the coronavirus hysteria continued and appeared to be escalating, fiat markets were crashing, and even btc had dropped another 1k against the usd (which, as BingoBoingo later pointed out on [http://qntra.net/20

13:37

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020897 - good for you for getting out indeed.

13:37

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:24:05 billymg: on top of that, all this was happening in my first week in a new country, in my new life without a steady fiat income. it felt a bit like the sky was falling but it also made me feel damn lucky for getting out of the US when i did (before who knows what kind of travel ban might have prevented or postponed by escape), and for selling a large chunk of my fiat stocks to buy the property and set aside a nest egg befo

13:39

billymg, I don't see where I disagree with you, glad to hear it.

13:42

billymg, as far as mp-wp the roadmap looks good and the time you've estimated to get it done isn't so burdensome so fwiw I say keep at it.

13:44

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020915 - cool++, let me know when is good for you to talk about JWRD.

13:44

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:06 billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)

13:45

*

dorion will be back at 19 utc.

13:47

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020928 << thank you, good to hear

13:47

Logged on 2020-03-13 15:00:17 dorion: billymg, as far as mp-wp the roadmap looks good and the time you've estimated to get it done isn't so burdensome so fwiw I say keep at it.

13:48

dorion: will do

13:48

*

billymg will bbl, teaching pet how to drive a manual

~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~

15:00

bvt

dorion: i intend to finish the currently outstanding tasks, including 2.6.32 fgrng kernel port. i also don't see a reason to stop the operation, at least in the area of Gales/TMSR-OS (i dunno if it should be called TMSR-OS given the current situation).

15:02

hey bvt, very glad to hear! and agree with coming up with a new name.

15:04

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020881 - true, it's the healthier option I learnt with time.

15:04

Logged on 2020-03-13 00:57:31 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020660 - it wouldn't surprise me if you did. in part because where we're at and in part because I see you laughing a lot.

15:05

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020891 - there's a bit more he says in there; what do you make of the reason?

15:05

Logged on 2020-03-13 11:52:14 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Mircea Popescu will be publishing a closing statement for S.QNTR http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147793

15:06

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020892 - no worries; and reading.

15:06

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:23:04 billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020695 << apologies for only adding my thoughts now, i was running around all of yesterday doing errands/shopping for the property and by the time i got home i was too tired to do much more than catch up on the discussion and process internally

15:08

fwiw the lot happening seamingly at the same time/all at once tends to be how things go; the unsaid part being though that ~none of what "happens" just appears out of nowhere and so it's not mandatory to end up totally surprised by everything.

15:11

billymg: I appreciated those comments, and second the weird coincidence; the previous day El Salvador goes quarantine and people here are avoiding shaking hands; then this happens. (and not out of nowhere, sure)

15:14

dorion: from some of your words you seem to be taking it pretty hard. Is it that much of a shock, after the shakeups already going on even as we joined? Could be I'm feeling a bit ...too stoical about it though

15:14

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020902 - I would add that operations should continue *in a different way*; not just the passive "things will be different"; and I'd be quite interested in hearing what each of you thinks on this "different how" , too

15:14

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:24:57 billymg: in general i agree with the sentiment already expressed. that there's no reason for operations to not continue, but that things will be different

15:15

hi jfw, how's the bellow of the blast & growling of the gale looking today?

15:16

billymg: re OS, definitely don't underestimate the value of outside testing for turning up bad assumptions, unrecognized environmental differences, inadequate documentation etc. as my recent examples perhaps illustrate

15:18

diana_coman: thoughtful words aren't coming to mind just yet there but I'm doing alright

15:18

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020915 - to my mind, each has a vested interest in *others'* work&struggle to succeed and on wider grounds really but I don't know if this even makes any sense or to whom - unless each speaks their mind, on this as on anything else.

15:18

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:06 billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)

15:19

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020917 - dorion , it was just a direct reference to that wall.

15:19

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:50 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020648 - is there a literary reference in there I'm missing ?

15:20

jfw, I don't think I'm shocked since the current situation was a long time in development and from diana_coman's words yesterday I'm not beating myself up about it.

15:21

dorion: cool. what do you mean by "said I have to say something" - I'm not recalling this?

15:24

jfw, and now I'm drawing a blank on that quote. link ?

15:24

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020936 - bvt, glad to hear this; what do you make/think of the situation otherwise?

15:24

Logged on 2020-03-13 16:18:32 bvt: dorion: i intend to finish the currently outstanding tasks, including 2.6.32 fgrng kernel port. i also don't see a reason to stop the operation, at least in the area of Gales/TMSR-OS (i dunno if it should be called TMSR-OS given the current situation).

15:24

dorion: in your review on yh

15:25

this btw was at least as surprising to me as asking me to explain him V earlier

15:25

(trilema) 2020-03-13 mp_en_viaje: what i'll do is, come the 15th ima sweep the address into one of the web wallets and pay the fellows from there (at their own risk).

15:25

maybe he uses 'web wallet' figuratively.

15:25

jfw: surprises are where learning happens - IF you pester those surprises with questions!

15:25

dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020922

15:25

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:53:47 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020894 - I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I

15:26

jfw: what is the surprise in there?

15:30

today I'll need to go away from keyboard in about half an hour from now, so if there's something that is better discussed today than tomorrow, the sooner the better.

15:31

diana_coman: given all the volume of btc he's dealt in and the depth of his resources and processes, and that mpex withdrawals aren't a new process for him at all, why would he be counting on a brand-new thing plus perfect preparation from me as only alternative to a worst-possible transaction tool?

↖

15:32

jfw, I misspoke there. I meant I said to myself I need to speak what's on my mind rather than whatever the alternative would've been.

15:32

jfw: you are conflating there *his options* with *his decision* (and possibly with your own role in all of it, huh)

15:32

not that you told me to.

15:32

diana_coman: perhaps he just says it to get an itch under my skin

15:33

diana_coman: well my surprise is with my role being presented as bigger than expected

15:33

jfw: that's a very silly way of looking at it and moreover, if you also use it (as it sounds) so that you basically ignore the feedback, it falls further than silly on that side.

15:34

dorion: ah ok.

15:35

jfw: perhaps leave to the side for a moment the attempt to evaluate MP's capabilities -since mhm, perhaps you don't quite have enough data there, you know?- and focus on the situation itself and what it meant/could mean for you, how about that? after all, it's your own position in any given situation that is possibly both best known to you and of most interest, right?

15:36

diana_coman: right; happy to leave aside

15:37

jfw: so that first step done, the next: what does/did the situation mean for you?

15:40

diana_coman regarding the different way, I don't have anything at present.

15:40

(not implying you were asking for it *now*)

15:41

diana_coman: still here but struggling on how to answer that.

15:42

dorion: your review aims for the most important differences you can make right now on your side, so no worries there at all.

15:42

jfw in your words, it was an honor.

15:42

(trilema) 2020-03-07 jfw: Moving on though: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959066 - I'm honored; was spinning a bit on "but what if it fucks up and zaps more coin than I've ever laid hands on??" but yeah, can't wait for another life, it's about time

15:43

jfw: heh, how come I keep coming with questions to struggle with?

15:43

dorion: tsk, let him struggle, what; it's good for him; and he knows anyway that he won't get away with just that for an answer :P

15:43

I was given a chance; I'd spent a lot of time preparing but didn't end up good enough to fit his needs, though it was still positive as a learning experience

15:44

diana_coman: you keep coming with 'em because growth comes from struggle

15:44

diana_coman ok on both :)

15:44

jfw: a chance to what? and were those specific-MP needs?

15:45

a chance to interact and get his feedback for one

15:45

jfw: there's more than one .

15:46

dorion: were there some follow-up questions you had?

15:48

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020990 - now I curse in Russian for lack of proper whatfor vs whyfrom; your answer looks at my "how come" as a "to what end"; my question asked "where from" - with a view to help you figure out also how to come with better questions at all times.

15:48

Logged on 2020-03-13 17:02:04 jfw: diana_coman: you keep coming with 'em because growth comes from struggle

15:48

well, a chance for publicity I recall he said; then, for demonstrating what I was or wasn't ready for - well that's just another way of saying feedback it seems.

15:49

diana_coman: ah, ty for point that out.

15:49

*pointing

15:50

and no it's not specific-MP needs - but I've found I'm still a bit confused on what happened:

15:51

jfw: so what sort of needs then? and ask to clarify then

15:52

specifically I can't expand for myself on what was the problem at hand, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020922

15:52

Logged on 2020-03-13 14:53:47 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020894 - I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I

15:54

jfw: sticking to what you know most on, namely your own stuff: you had just published/promised an offline wallet of your own making on top of previously published software that is the very core of your business; is this correct so far?

15:55

hm do you mean the OS by previously published or what?

15:55

the OS for sure; the scheme interpreter I'd gather; you tell me specifically what/if anything else

15:56

diana_coman one was what directions forward you see ? but I accept if you prefer to see if people continuing here can I identify what you see without you saying it.

15:56

Logged on 2020-03-12 17:22:24 diana_coman: well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".

15:57

sure, the OS wasn't to be a part of the wallet exercise as I took it, I think I mistook your question. So, it's correct so far.

15:58

The scheme interpreter was not previously published though, I was getting all that out.

15:58

dorion: it's not that I'm looking for anyone to guess/match/identify, at all; it's simply that the *viability* of at least some directions depend a lot on what people want to do and which ways they want (or don't) to go; so for this reason, I really want to hear everyone who cares to go forwards in any way, really.

16:00

diana_coman, makes sense.

16:00

jfw: ok; MP gave you this opportunity of a *live test with useful audience* essentially; and in this I suspect is the first point to take home - by the sounds of it you really focused more on guessing/aiming for MP's needs than on the basic task(s) at hand first and foremost.

16:02

My confusion is, he asked which v I was using; I had fully tested a dependency-light manual process for the single-patch trees, but assumed that if he preferred an automated V then he'd know which and how to use it

16:03

(I've certainly used them before, but didn't test this time around, as admitted.)

16:03

and in being a live test of what you aim for business, you should have approached exactly like a business prospect in the end; because the 2nd point is that an opportunity (with the right people) is not pre-bounded ie how much comes out of it/as a result of it is limited only by your performance really, not by whatever you might initially perceive as "the purpose" or anything of the sort.

16:04

jfw: is that something you'd do to a business prospect?

16:05

does it make more sense to you if I call the opportunity one to "showcase your offline wallet as a working business tool"?

16:06

...I suppose I wouldn't.

16:06

fwiw I do have a sneaking suspicion that your "business prospects" there are a very...interesting sort, let's say, but that'll be for another day; nevertheless, ^^^

16:08

they don't seem to push back much on anything but price, if that's what you mean, which certainly doesn't help figure out what hangups are happening internally because of me or whatever else.

16:09

which suggests to me again more practice with finding better questions to ask.

16:09

jfw: and to wrap it up, as you might notice even in the wording above, it all comes back to the old and oft-repeated points of don't exam take in ANY form, no matter how light and focus on causes, never on purposes because you can NOT know the future.

16:09

Logged on 2020-03-12 18:12:59 diana_coman: BingoBoingo: why the fuck would you focus on *prediction* of other peoples' reasoning instead of focusing on what you are trying to *do*, ffs

16:10

jfw: that "don't seem to push back much on anything but price" is one the very obvious clues (and otherwise very much what I guessed without being there, because it's an effect not a cause)

16:11

huh, thanks for tying the exam-taking. I was thinking in terms of "what was I supposed to do differently?" rather than... hm.

16:11

aha; plenty of huhs and hms and mhms to ponder :P

16:12

"what is the best/correct way to do it?" but that can't often be known, can it?

16:13

jfw: the correct way to do it can be known - it stems from the task so why wouldn't it be possible to know? and note that it's not some mathematically proved absolute best we are talking about, yes?

16:14

I'm also reminded of trinque's arguments re OS (bvt's too?) but... how do we know what to build if we don't know for what purpose

16:15

jfw: o.O how do you jump now to that? an offline wallet is rather clearly defined (though now I recall one of the issues coming to light as a result of the attempt with MP was precisely that you didn't have quite a clear definition there to start with ...)

16:16

maybe that's why I hesitated to say "correct" because yeah the OS is a much foggier thing

16:17

jfw: maybe start from there really; try to figure out proper definitions for what you are trying to do (recall, a definition serves basically to neatly separate the thing out of the huge soup of ~everything, in the end) and then work from them - it might make for more self-assurance too for that matter.

16:19

diana_coman: an offline signer is a program that signs transactions and runs on a machine disconnected from the network, with data transferred by some other more controlled means. I could have stated that before, too, so quite seeing where that's my problem

16:20

*not quite

16:23

jfw: for one thing now it's offline signer rather than offline wallet and any change of words should be at least justified explicitly; for another thing, your problem seems to be that you don't use the definition when you get to bigger/fuzzier questions eg at "what is an attack vector relevant for this and what isn't"; all of a sudden on those you forget the boundaries the definition provides and go as wide as you can see, or so it ...

16:23

... looks.

16:24

anyways, I need to go away from keyboard for now; I might be able to check in briefly in a few hours if that's of any help; in any case, I'll surely be back tomorrow.

16:25

diana_coman: alright I've got stuff to chew on certainly.

16:26

thanks diana_coman, take care.

16:28

Not recalling quite where "offline wallet" was introduced as the term, "split wallet" is more correct, containing signer and node parts; I see the point on how switching implicitly to more formal terminology could confuse things unnecessarily.

~ 1 hours 9 minutes ~

17:37

diana_coman: The reason as I read it is that for my failure to cover all the edges S.QNTR, like S.NSA has come to be a pile of dodecahedron, a thing in which there's no trade and for its isolation has it sitting outside of economic activity. It has no book value. Further, it has no value at market that could not, in principle, be swamped by some sort of demand of compensation for work done on my part. He ends the comment bidding me

17:37