Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2020-03-11 | 2020-03-13 → ↓
01:45 dorion just gave the latest article a second read. seems like he's saying, "you all could be men, but for whatever reason you're not and I've had enough of the retardation to interact with it further. perhaps me walking away is what's needed to wake you up."
01:45 ossabot (trilema) 2020-03-12 feedbot: http://trilema.com/2020/closure/ << Trilema -- Closure.
01:58 jfw To echo what I said in private: my read is further that it's not even our own failing : we're the hermit crabs that don't stand a chance because the environment is too poisoned; the vines after phyloxera; the sex after syphilis
02:00 dorion the deepest part of me doesn't want to accept that.
02:13 jfw dorion: sounds healthy to me. I'm not sure what to make of it as yet, gonna take time.
~ 1 hours 43 minutes ~
03:57 diana_coman dorion jfw the situation is what it is; what you make of it though, going further is your choice entirely
03:58 diana_coman and in that, there is no "don't stand a chance" that matters really
04:00 dorion diana_coman thanks. though it sucks, there's a lot to learn and I'm not giving up nor going away.
04:02 diana_coman fwiw and for as long as there is a use to it that I can see, I'll still be here.
04:03 diana_coman perhaps one way to see this is that here's a mighty wall, after all.
04:10 * diana_coman will bbl
04:10 dorion diana_coman thanks, it's worth a lot and I'll endeavor to make it useful for you. I know it's been useful for me to date and it's my responsibility to outgrow the retardation that I let make it less useful then it could've been.
~ 8 hours 41 minutes ~
12:51 diana_coman jfw: is it clear what I'm saying there re test-run?
12:51 ossabot (trilema) 2020-03-12 diana_coman: jfw: listen, you do a full test-run of everything so that you can properly guide someone step by step and you know 200% what is required and at what point.
12:53 jfw diana_coman: hmm I thought so: going through the exact process, ideally in a fresh environment, to make sure it works
12:54 diana_coman jfw: certainly in a fresh environment, taking note of what is required and what the concrete steps are; obv, you are talking to a literate (and computer literate too) person so you will adjust your *guidance* accordingly, but that comes *after* having done the test run fully so that you can *pick* any level of detail needed (and even adjust higher/lower on the fly, as/if needed)
12:58 diana_coman it's not just about "make sure it works" but also having in detail the *explicit* knowledge of what the process is *in practice*.
12:59 diana_coman there's a big gap between implicit ("I know I'm able to do it and it will work") and explicit ("here are the steps and I can tell you at which why and how and what are prerequisites + results & where to look if something goes wrong)
12:59 diana_coman at each*
13:00 jfw I see.
13:01 diana_coman but you see, stuff like this comes out of interactions only; and the fact that it was lacking betrays precisely "been working only alone and/or with close/same-mind friends"...
13:02 diana_coman I kind of have an inkling that if I attended one of those events in Panama, I'd be laughing a *lot*.
13:03 diana_coman anyways, I'll be back at 7pm as usual.
13:03 jfw here I thought it betrayed only v-sloppiness
~ 1 hours 59 minutes ~
15:02 jfw diana_coman: I may be thinking myself into knots here so I'll try to express. With the "explicit knowledge" point in mind, it occurs to me there's more trouble waiting than just V or even GNAT:
15:02 diana_coman jfw: not only v-sloppiness, no; because it's obviously not limited to that (it's not even all that clear that it *can* be limited that narrowly, ever)
15:02 diana_coman jfw: go ahead
15:03 diana_coman BingoBoingo: what's your plan re Qntra now?
15:04 jfw suppose MP says "how do I use this v.pl of yours, what is perl ?" Onto the previously assumed dependencies list it goes, and then, "what version / how do I get it"? To which I'd say, "idk, it was just the one on my machine, here's a link but no idea if/how it'll build in your environment"
15:05 jfw and I begin to see (more clearly) how S.MG ended up trying to capture ubuntu...
15:05 diana_coman jfw: you *can* have a list of pre-requisites, you know? just like you said e.g. http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959149
15:05 ossabot (trilema) 2020-03-07 jfw: Can I assume you have an x86_64 unixlike with gcc for the install?
15:06 diana_coman but yes, that's basically the missing complete republican computer
15:06 ossabot (trilema) 2020-03-12 mp_en_viaje: jfw, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959149 << was this more a "can i assume you have a complete republican computer, as per the [not yet written, let alone become part of common culutre] recipe" ?
15:06 diana_coman jfw: fwiw, CS itself pretty much ends up an OS and for similar reasons, yes
15:08 jfw aha. I realize though that I have no idea what versions of perl v.pl works with (kinda doubt anyone else does either but maybe I should ask around?) so as to specify the prereq
15:09 jfw oh hey, it says in the v_quick_start.txt, how about that.
15:09 diana_coman jfw: the first step is to gather the list of what is needed, anyway; hm, I think for starters there was a list of pre-requisites (from trb perhaps?) and re v.pl I don't recall it having a problem on any perl version; you can say "tested on this and that", it's not the absurd "I can now point to the full list of versions of the software (and combinations since environment!!) and say on which it works and on which it doesn't"
15:10 diana_coman jfw: heh, see?
15:11 diana_coman jfw: for that matter mod6 documented v.pl extremely well and it's *that* the reason I stuck with it (even though I am no fan of perl, at all)
15:12 diana_coman jfw: any further questions re that test-run/preparing?
15:13 jfw well, re gnat: I could tweak v.pl as whaack did to use keksum and avoid that whole dependency - except there's reasons it was used, the vdiff works better and such. Still vacillating on that.
15:14 jfw in question form: do you see a downside to my using keksum to bypass gnat for this application?
15:16 diana_coman jfw: heh, the trouble is really in how you use it ie ...I can't answer that as stated really; on one hand, being able to drop gnat entirely can be a huge plus; otoh you are moving at the last minute from a known-to-work solution to an ad-hoc put-together so ...
15:17 diana_coman jfw: sanely, you should talk to MP and agree on a deadline for next attempt really; then plan your way accordingly.
15:17 diana_coman and for that matter, if it were me, I'd probably have *both* options on the table.
15:17 jfw diana_coman: yeah that sounds much better than how I'm going about it.
15:17 diana_coman obv, you should have at least some idea as to what you can have ready by when
15:18 jfw also ack on the v.pl docs point and thanks mod6 for that.
15:19 diana_coman thanks are one thing, learning from it is even better :P
15:23 diana_coman moving on to the end of tmsr - hopefully it is clear that moving forwards is possible but not without significant changes, since it can't be "the same thing" by any definition
15:26 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020643 - it makes sense it will take time indeed; it'll probably take less if there is some conversation
15:26 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 03:31:32 jfw: dorion: sounds healthy to me. I'm not sure what to make of it as yet, gonna take time.
15:26 diana_coman and atm the silence on this is rather ...loud.
15:26 jfw diana_coman: it's not clear to me yet what the forwards or changes might be, though perhaps this is so for everyone
15:26 jfw certainly clear it doesn't go forward as before.
15:27 diana_coman ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack - do you care to say your mind on this, at all?
15:27 dorion hi diana_coman
15:27 diana_coman hi there
15:28 dorion I don't know if this is being overly hard on myself, but I can help but think that the tmsr os article from yest and subsequent conversation with trinque was the straw that broke the camels' back resulting in the closure.
15:28 diana_coman dorion: I can set your mind at rest on that score - no, it was not.
15:28 dorion perhaps if it was published in december or januaury or even february in that state it'd have been a different story.
15:28 jfw diana_coman: what does going further refer to - simply the meaning I was taking from the text or what to do about it or what?
15:28 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 05:14:56 diana_coman: dorion jfw the situation is what it is; what you make of it though, going further is your choice entirely
15:29 diana_coman dorion: and for starters, it's unclear if you are being too hard on yourself or too full of yourself to really think *you broke* the whole thing; but even beyond this, I'll tell you: no, it's not your doing as such.
15:29 diana_coman jfw: what's the meaning you took from the text?
15:30 dorion diana_coman I said straw because I've inferred from what I've read that the chances of this happening have been increasing as time has passed.
15:32 jfw diana_coman: that MP was saying we don't stand a chance at (his definition of) being men because the toxic environment prevents it.
15:32 diana_coman dorion: the collection of evidence accumulates as time passes; what's that to do with it though?
15:33 BingoBoingo diana_coman: I'm in on moving forward, and working the Qntra plan. I have today a very picky crawler that goes from a starting url to a targets list. Still have to work on the filters to catch more good commentable targets, but it is going. http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=6LPR
15:33 diana_coman jfw: right; so for starters, what's your understanding of the "closure" anyway?
15:34 jfw That he's reached closure (except for the "maybe we'll see"s at the end) on the question of whether his envisioned republic is possible to build now
15:34 diana_coman BingoBoingo: that's not answering at all what's your plan for qntra; for one thing, may I remind you that you have a board for qntra and I'm not even on it, right? for the other, may I also remind you that Qntra is even now branded as ~"tmsr herald"- which is hardly a fit *after tmsr*, yes?
15:36 diana_coman jfw: ok, what was his envisioned republic?
15:37 jfw diana_coman: that, I don't have a good definition for.
15:37 dorion diana_coman I'm not sure what it has to do with it. my instinct is to look at what I could've done first and I know I could've done better even before registering with deedbot and talking and that's where I'm at now.
15:38 diana_coman jfw: well, what *do* you have for it? you know, you can't set reality on hold until you come up with definitions for it, it's not how things work in practice ever.
15:40 diana_coman dorion: yes, you could have certainly done better; not only you for that matter; and yes, it's worth learning from it ALL you can and fast, esp since it sucks that much that possibly you really don't want similar suck in the future; there is *also* the important fact that what you failed to do NEVER invalidates what you DID do well, despite a very common tendency to think/feel that way
15:41 dorion diana_coman my concept of the envisioned republic was independent agents that could/would implement the culture he's exhaustively made the case for being superior.
15:41 diana_coman jfw: yours?
15:41 jfw diana_coman: indeed. well, it focused on elitism, or rather, focused explicitly and honestly on that, rejecting socialist notions of human equality; it involved building relationships between capable people and strengthening them, based on strong cryptographic tools, and maintaining the tools to keep it working
15:43 dorion jfw what's your concept of elitism ?
15:44 diana_coman jfw: do those include any of the horrific bits you mentioned?
15:45 diana_coman dorion: what is that culture to be implemented?
15:45 jfw the phrase "the lord can get away with bloody murder, though that doesn't mean it's not bloody or not murder" comes to mind
15:45 diana_coman jfw: why does that come to mind or how?
15:48 dorion diana_coman a blend of scholarship, trade where it makes sense, war when necessary (or desired), patriachy and harem.
15:49 dorion patriarchy*
15:49 BingoBoingo diana_coman: Alright. At some point I'm going to have to talk to mircea_popescu to see what he wants to do with Qntra. Post-TMSR, I'm inclined to rebrand around an anti-socialist/anti-USG line. I want to keep working the plan for growth and continue using Qntra as a vehicle for WoT growth, and as a vehicle for myself to mature and break my dependence on ad-hoc'ing everything.
15:51 diana_coman BingoBoingo: well vehicle and all that, the question though is whether it's going to be a business or a hobby or what exactly?
15:52 jfw diana_coman: it relates to the earlier question if not quite answering it in that, if the lord may do as he pleases, then that includes rape, murder, torture or whatever else; I also see his point as being there are necessarily such people in the world whether called lords or not so what of it.
15:53 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020716 - btw, this footnote possibly sheds more light on this.
15:53 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 16:58:11 diana_coman: dorion: yes, you could have certainly done better; not only you for that matter; and yes, it's worth learning from it ALL you can and fast, esp since it sucks that much that possibly you really don't want similar suck in the future; there is *also* the important fact that what you failed to do NEVER invalidates what you DID do well, despite a very common tendency to think/feel that way
15:53 jfw dorion: elitism means orienting toward / focusing resources on the most capable few in a group
15:55 diana_coman dorion: one important bit in there is that nobody just "implements" a culture like that; it's never the case that anything works by means of applying a set of recipes to whatever is out there.
15:56 BingoBoingo diana_coman: I am inclined to pursue it as a business, if possible. I want to make this thing live and make the changes to myself and my tools necessary for that to happen.
15:57 diana_coman the trouble with that enforce this and make the problems go away is that the very core aka the approach itself is nonsense, not that one set of rules/recipes are worse than another.
15:57 ossabot Logged on 2019-10-16 17:15:07 dorion: he doesn't exactly live in reality. he lives in a fantasy, in part, that if the US consitution were enforced usia's problems would in large part be resolved.
15:58 diana_coman (well, some can be argued to be worse than others too, sure, but that's not all that significant compared to the deeper and bigger problem)
15:59 diana_coman BingoBoingo: it's not a matter of inclination but one of decisive action (to say perhaps more than decision+action); and one that requires a certain approach + resources; at any rate, if you want to make it a business, you are certainly best off retaining MP as manager if at all possible; and so perhaps start from making sure *that* is possible, I have no idea.
16:00 lobbes http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020680 << I mean, if the Republic is to actually stand the test of time then it will need to be able to stand sans-MP. I wish he weren't closing up shop of course, but that's his call. The man sure gave a lot of himself and his experience (for free, I might add) for almost a decade and not too much came of it. I can understand his decision.
16:00 ericbot Logged on 2020-03-12 19:35:19 diana_coman: ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack - do you care to say your mind on this, at all?
16:00 lobbes Only thing to do now is the same thing we did yesterday: keep trying to do meaningful work so that actual humans can continue to find and work with other actual humans. Maybe we do good and he returns, but in any case our path is the same
16:01 lobbes anyways, I've been glued to the logs/blogs most of today. I need a break. I'll be back later tonight most likely to get that final historical dump ready for MP
16:01 diana_coman lobbes: do you mean the republic without mp?
16:02 diana_coman lobbes: at the grass roots life goes on the same, sure.
16:02 diana_coman at any rate, laters, no worries.
16:02 lobbes diana_coman: well, we'd need single authority yeah. Definitely can't end up like the cat-v channels of the world sure
16:02 lobbes or whatever that chan was called
16:03 lobbes I just meant more like http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-14#1936229
16:03 ericbot (trilema) 2019-09-14 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-14#1936160 << verily. Furthermore, the inescapable truth is that one day mircea_popescu will shuffle off this mortal coil. Why anyone would not want to eat as much of his brain while he is around is completely unfathomable to me, especially since he is willingly offering it to eat! The Republic will one day need to stand on its own feet and produce
16:03 diana_coman lobbes: it's deeper than that even.
16:04 lobbes well, I'll continue to follow diana_coman at any rate
16:04 diana_coman well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".
16:05 lobbes yeah, I see what you mean. If we couldn't stand with MP how are we to stand without
16:05 jfw it would be like saying "well MP concluded it didn't work, and we thought he knew things, but this time we're sure he's wrong so we'll try anyway" right?
16:05 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020729 - jfw , quite a significant part of the closure is precisely the conclusion that ...no, there aren't really anymore such people in the world, nor likely there will be as such.
16:05 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 17:10:06 jfw: diana_coman: it relates to the earlier question if not quite answering it in that, if the lord may do as he pleases, then that includes rape, murder, torture or whatever else; I also see his point as being there are necessarily such people in the world whether called lords or not so what of it.
16:06 diana_coman jfw: it's not even about saying that though I can see how/why you could package it that way.
16:07 jfw diana_coman: the raep and pillage is authorized by committee exclusively now?
16:07 diana_coman jfw: lolz, no
16:07 diana_coman jfw: but you touch on the point in that you got in there the "authorized"already
16:08 jfw ah, "nobody meant it, it just sorta happened"?
16:08 diana_coman jfw: does it seem to you happening as in focused/aimed/meaningful somewhere?
16:09 diana_coman you do realise that there's a difference between that madman ringing at your door and your earlier lord who can get away with bloody murder
16:09 diana_coman right?
16:09 diana_coman nobody said that madness is extinct or something, sure
16:12 dorion ttp://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020733 - how does culture come to be ? is that even the right question ?
16:12 jfw diana_coman: the madman is a figurative device isn't he? to illustrate the silliness of certain worries.
16:13 dorion http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020733
16:13 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 17:13:21 diana_coman: dorion: one important bit in there is that nobody just "implements" a culture like that; it's never the case that anything works by means of applying a set of recipes to whatever is out there.
16:13 diana_coman jfw: well, there are also mad people in the world and at times you can literally meet them, right? not like it didn't or can't happen.
16:14 jfw whereas, GW Bush and friends got away with war crimes no problem, probably believed their own narratives too
16:14 diana_coman dorion: it's certainly a better question indeed.
16:15 jfw diana_coman: sure, and I'd agree a raving madman is not a lord irrespective of whether he happens to carry bloody axe
16:18 diana_coman dorion: in short, culture is essentially a sum-result; sure, it can be transmitted but within the environment that grew it basically, not transplanted (and the transplating approach has been tried over and over again with the same fail each and every time)
16:20 diana_coman transplanting* (though trans-splatting might give some idea as to how it works in practice, lolz)
16:25 diana_coman logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020729a - note also that what it includes is anyway indicative of the lord's *limitations* rather than of "what he can get away with"
16:26 diana_coman not sure what do you get exactly out of that because the way you say it, it doesn't seem to be something you are all that clear on.
16:27 BingoBoingo diana_coman: I will pursue Qntra as a business, if mircea_popescu will let me. Qntra is listed on MPEx and mircea_popescu does have more of the reserved block and likely more of the total equity than I. What happens depends on what he want to do: whether he wants to wait and see if my working the plan makes Qntra live, or if he wants to close out s.qntr in which case... what happens depends on what he wants and it sounds at present
16:27 BingoBoingo what he want is out.
16:28 dorion diana_coman does it then follow that mp was running an experiment to test the environment and understand to whom his culture / mode of being could be transmitted to ? any the closure is, "as far as I can tell, there's no one out there. and to those I'd been attempting to transmit to I've realized they came from an environment which retards them such that they'll die prior to having a chance to
16:28 dorion grow the culture I'm transmitting."
16:29 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020706 - tying this back in (because it does tie back in and we only took the detour to have it all in sight precisely to be able finally to put it together): jfw, do you understand MP's definition of man and do you actually want to fully fit that?
16:29 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 16:49:57 jfw: diana_coman: that MP was saying we don't stand a chance at (his definition of) being men because the toxic environment prevents it.
16:31 diana_coman dorion: I guess it would help you to have a think at the question above ^ too
16:32 diana_coman key words in the question above being *fully fit*
16:33 diana_coman and note that the point is to look exactly at what is; there's no "should be/should not be" answer there.
16:33 jfw diana_coman: you're right that I'm not all that clear on http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020729 , and I'm pretty sure I don't understand his definition and so do not know whether I want to fully fit it.
16:33 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 17:10:06 jfw: diana_coman: it relates to the earlier question if not quite answering it in that, if the lord may do as he pleases, then that includes rape, murder, torture or whatever else; I also see his point as being there are necessarily such people in the world whether called lords or not so what of it.
16:35 diana_coman if the answer given there matches *reality*, regardless of which of the two possible answers it is, you can go ahead and build on it and you stand a chance to succeed at the direction thus chosen precisely because it fits reality; if however the answer given does not match, you'll go the way that is ~guaranteed to result in failure as it's hallucinated rather than real.
16:37 diana_coman jfw: well, the full definition might not even be needed, since the "fully fit" hard test comes with the convenience of being very easy to reject at least; so take some of the most uneasy/horrifying parts and check first on those.
16:44 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020778 - that may very well be; understand that as long as you can't find *any* sort of drive of your own and no focus on what you *can* control as opposed to what you can't, you won't be able to run a business because how and on what is it exactly supposed to run? on its own power and drive, are you aiming to prove yet again that perpetuum mobile can somehow be made or what?
16:44 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 17:45:27 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will pursue Qntra as a business, if mircea_popescu will let me. Qntra is listed on MPEx and mircea_popescu does have more of the reserved block and likely more of the total equity than I. What happens depends on what he want to do: whether he wants to wait and see if my working the plan makes Qntra live, or if he wants to close out s.qntr in which case... what happens depends on what he wants and
16:46 diana_coman BingoBoingo: it's not about "mp will let me" ffs; for that matter, do you have the impression that he's either a toddler who just wants to throw toys out of the pram or an idiot who makes decisions randomly and therefore can't be convinced of anything, or what?
16:47 diana_coman jfw, dorion did I block you there?
16:47 jfw diana_coman: dorion just called to say his power went out, and he acks the question & is thinking on it.
16:47 diana_coman ah, ok
16:49 jfw I seem a bit blocked though, heh.
16:49 diana_coman well, the tough questions that need to be asked & answered though; such is the very meaning of significant changes, after all.
16:53 jfw diana_coman: do you know his definition of man or have references on it? I have a notion it's something I know but part of me doesn't want to see. Then again, half the stuff I said in this thread came back "that's not it" so... not feeling too confident.
16:53 BingoBoingo diana_coman: I do not have that impression of him. He is very clearly taking a reasoned approach to his withdrawal. I have to admit, what has gotten me into trouble is trying to predict where reason will lead him when I am so far behind.
16:55 diana_coman BingoBoingo: why the fuck would you focus on *prediction* of other peoples' reasoning instead of focusing on what you are trying to *do*, ffs
16:56 diana_coman ofc it will backfire and not even because of "so far behind" but precisely because of being an idiotic approach to start with; it IS the very essence of exam-taking after all.
16:57 BingoBoingo diana_coman: I've learned that and now find myself unfamiliar with the alternative.
16:57 diana_coman jfw: so take him as best example (and well documented, at that) of his definition, what's wrong with that?
16:58 diana_coman jfw: and take some of the more "outrageous" acts, whichever seem that way to you.
16:59 diana_coman jfw: the reason I'm not providing you with "the definition" is that I doubt it will be any help if the detailed, documented and interacted-with live example can't help.
17:01 diana_coman jfw: dunno, beating women?
17:03 diana_coman BingoBoingo: are you telling me that 30+ years you practiced ~exclusively the...prediction mode?
17:03 * diana_coman is ready to believe that, if stated.
17:03 BingoBoingo diana_coman: Nearly exclusively.
17:03 whaack diana_coman: It's a lot to digest upon return to my terminal, especially while standing on thin ice. I am not fully caught up on the logs that lead to MP's decision. Anyways, here are my first thoughts: My understanding is that evidence MP has collected over the years has led him to conclude that the potential of tmsr is too low to be worth his time. This means that everyone who interacted in #t
17:03 whaack has lost a valuable resource, and whatever is built in the ruins of tmsr will only be a fraction of what-could-have-been. As far as I can tell, building that fraction of tmsr is still worth doing. I plan to continue to work under you as before, provided I am able to make that worth your time.
17:04 jfw diana_coman: if beating's consensual I don't see a problem, but it doesn't really appeal to me. Then again it also seems used metaphorically as giving appropriate correction, which I would wish to emulate.
17:05 jfw Also I like & respect the living interacted example, or I wouldn't have taken him up on the veuve cliquot invite. But then there's http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-be-a-pimp-the-simple-comprehensible-and-exhaustive-guide/?b=So%20then.&e=:#select for example (and he sez all the stories are true!)
17:06 diana_coman jfw: the question is not that; the question is quite simple though admiteddly difficult to answer without actual practice: can you do X? (and note that no, can do does not mean one will always do it but it does mean that one has the option to do it and *exercises a choice* each time when does/doesn't do it)
17:07 diana_coman a consensual beating as in what, a signed statement/recorded message/what exactly?
17:07 diana_coman whaack: what's the "thin ice"?
17:08 whaack diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-03#1019854
17:08 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-03 04:34:08 diana_coman: whaack: if I end up asking you a question about the point of the previous question that was on why an even earlier question was needed, I'll just as soon go get my key and negrate, save some time; seriously now, do you want to *do* something or do you enjoy my conversation only?
17:08 diana_coman jfw: and appeal has nothing to do with it really; again, not like being able to do something means you have to do it all the time or even frequently or whatever.
17:10 diana_coman jfw: now I wonder if you even glimpsed anywhere near *how much* there is to the example in terms of "can & did", huh.
17:12 jfw diana_coman: consensual as in, i dunno, free to go as he indeed says his women are, not trying to be the state of california here lol
17:13 jfw I think I start to see what you're getting at though
17:13 * dorion is plugged in at friends office and catching up
17:14 jfw (that's confident-jfw right there huh!)
17:14 diana_coman dorion: but what, literally blackouts in panama now?
17:15 jfw transformers seem to blow from time to time indeed.
17:15 jfw they get fixed, like my stuff apparently, once on fire
17:16 dorion diana_coman not sure exactly. there was a truck on my block, but I didn't stop to ask.
17:16 diana_coman ah, it's not the old-ro-commie version of industry-first but the more modern version of maintenance-what-maintenance?
17:17 diana_coman dorion: no worries, I just didn't have any idea those happened there, that's all.
17:18 jfw diana_coman: I don't know what the industry-first was like but that sounds about right.
17:18 jfw oh I see waht you mean, factories taking priority over residences and such.
17:24 diana_coman jfw: yes, that's exactly what it was; my hometown is/was an industrial town (petrol refineries, plural as in 4+) so lots of experience with residences being disconnected because unimportant.
17:25 diana_coman jfw: getting back to the "fully fit", how about this?
17:29 dorion diana_coman re fully fit to his definition of man, while I'm not ready to given what the definition is, the "horrifying" parts don't scare me and in fact seem to resonate with the younger version of me that was poisoned by usia.
17:31 diana_coman dorion: each picks their own "horrifying" - are there any horrifying for you?
17:33 dorion diana_coman not that come to mind now and to the extent there were, confronting them made me stronger.
17:33 BingoBoingo http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020808 << Upon reflection I can't recall any clear exceptions in 30+ years. Growing up it seemed to work, and when it stopped working, I never managed to replace it. I'd just been trying to tweak the prediction approach without ever actually trying anything else.
17:33 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 18:20:45 diana_coman: BingoBoingo: are you telling me that 30+ years you practiced ~exclusively the...prediction mode?
17:33 jfw diana_coman: still working on le cercle rouge, but - this kind of can & did are you talking about?
17:36 diana_coman jfw: that's surely one sort of can&did, yes; not the only sort, but works as one example, certainly.
17:38 jfw or - apparently I'm starting to have fun with the horrors - there's the HLP still afaik in the "can" category; or http://trilema.com/2016/how-i-convinced-some-jailbirds-im-more-demented-than-they-could-ever-hope-to-be/ reportedly in the "did"
17:39 diana_coman dorion: well, resonate is one thing, esp when with past version of self; the question is -and can only be- re current & future.
17:40 diana_coman jfw: there's fun in everything!
17:40 dorion diana_coman before it gets too late today, jfw and I haven't talked about it yet, but I would prefer to continue with "tmsr os" rather than pile on what he's done with gales. what are your thoughts ?
17:40 diana_coman dorion: what does it mean "to continue with tmsr os"?
17:42 jfw diana_coman: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mikado/There_is_beauty_in_the_bellow_of_the_blast
17:42 dorion it means to continue to find people to commit to owning the parts under V to support the implicit clients established on schedules.
17:44 diana_coman dorion: to the extent that you want to do that, it can be, why not; but do realise that there's as always a whole context to it and as such, it will still need some re-think and some discussion and some wider planning.
17:45 dorion diana_coman right and won't be a continuation of what was with mp.
17:45 diana_coman dorion: indeed, not quite the same thing, since the tmsr- part of it is no more as such.
17:46 dorion diana_coman will s.mg be continuing eulora ?
17:46 diana_coman but this is part of what I was saying at the very start today, that what you make of it moving forwards is entirely your choice.
17:47 diana_coman dorion: yes, s.mg is a business on mpex, so why wouldn't it?
17:47 diana_coman and eulora is the flagship game, not a tmsr-something anyway
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17:47 dorion diana_coman I expected it would, but would rather ask plainly.
17:48 diana_coman dorion: sure; and as you very well know, questions are better asked, yes.
17:48 dorion http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020844 - I think so, but I accept I have to prove it to myself to understand it can.
17:48 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 18:57:17 diana_coman: dorion: well, resonate is one thing, esp when with past version of self; the question is -and can only be- re current & future.
17:54 dorion diana_coman, do you think that's ^^^ an unneccessary hedge in my speech that's holding me back ?
17:57 diana_coman dorion: I can't quite tell as such; it can be either that or exactly true as stated; it will take some time to tell.
17:58 diana_coman dorion: one thing to get fully at this point though is that *nothing good will happen in a hurry*
17:59 diana_coman despite what it might seem, it's *not* an emergency.
18:00 dorion diana_coman ok, thank you. I think I can patient.
18:00 dorion be patient
18:00 diana_coman it's way past that point in a sense so there is now at least the obligation (and luxury, all in one) of taking the time to figure out what is and moreover what lasts past the initial rush.
18:04 jfw diana_coman: so with http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020835 does the fitting mean: to be the sort who's willing to hunt or be hunted down to the death?
18:04 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 18:43:16 diana_coman: jfw: getting back to the "fully fit", how about this?
18:06 diana_coman jfw: among other things, yes; for starters even to be one even not all that concerned about dieing; not in the suicidal sense but in the very simple sense that "if it gets there, so be it"
18:07 jfw aha, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959141 I was just recounting over dinner last night.
18:07 ossabot (trilema) 2020-03-07 mp_en_viaje: for as long as you live, your death does not exist, and therefore is no concern of yours; once your death exists or whatever actualizes itself there's necessarily nobody any longer there to fret about it.
18:12 diana_coman jfw: it's a very...practical thing, let's say; because how/whether you are concerned or not does decide in the end what you do and esp what you don't do.
18:13 diana_coman jfw: if you want, it's yet another version of that "get over yourself" - funnily enough getting over yourself is actually ...helping precisely yourself.
18:17 * BingoBoingo eating this food for the thinking.
18:20 jfw diana_coman: it sure does decide.
18:24 jfw diana_coman: thanks much for the conversation today. My brain is about cooked and needs a proper break for now.
18:25 diana_coman jfw: sure; and as previously said - there is time that *has to* be taken properly, none of this will get sorted in a day.
18:30 * BingoBoingo to put some news on Qntra, get back into regex to make the crawler less picky, and look for the defensible lines
~ 4 hours 13 minutes ~
22:43 * BingoBoingo presented the "What to do about Qntra?" question to MP http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147790
~ 56 minutes ~
23:39 dorion http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020660 - it wouldn't surprise me if you did. in part because where we're at and in part because I see you laughing a lot.
23:39 ossabot Logged on 2020-03-12 14:19:42 diana_coman: I kind of have an inkling that if I attended one of those events in Panama, I'd be laughing a *lot*.
23:42 dorion jfw, BingoBoingo, lobbes, whaack thanks for speaking up today. I'm glad we're all continuing to look for a way forward here despite the uncertainty at present.
23:43 dorion bvt, spyked, ave1, trinque, billymg I'm definitely curious to hear what each of you has to say.
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