Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2020-04-07 | 2020-04-09 → ↓
03:19 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-07#1023870 - hopefully none other are missing then, lolz.
03:19 ossabot Logged on 2020-04-07 18:23:35 jfw: diana_coman: I got the missing tarballs from asciilifeform btw. (thread)
~ 7 hours 26 minutes ~
10:46 trinque http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-07#1023859 << incidentally I'm engaged in a decrufting of the gcc script ave1 found and modified to support musl.
10:46 ossabot Logged on 2020-04-07 16:55:08 billymg: diana_coman: ah, gotcha. i can't say for sure if i'm most familiar with the codebase, my changes/contributions so far have been targeted and the codebase is rather large, however...
10:46 trinque for the very same reason.
10:47 trinque the thing was in such a terrible state I'll write on just how terrible and why when I'm done, but the summary is yes, maximal optionality at the expense of... being civilized, really.
10:47 trinque that was not strictly speaking ave1's doing; it was in that state before him.
10:49 trinque but I spent about an hour trying to get the thing to spit out a static *gcc* (which it wasn't) rather than a dynamically linked gcc (which can only emit static build products)
10:49 trinque and then I said fuck it all, thanks for the list of dependencies, and started over.
10:51 trinque there's a psychological element of it, in that the original author *was not* making the thing "easier to use". he was autistically listing all the things he knew, because he's a very smart boy.
10:59 trinque billymg: if I'm reading correctly the idea is to put your item in an existing plugin, and later get rid of the plugin mechanism?
11:00 trinque seems a sane progression, sure
~ 52 minutes ~
11:53 feedbot http://trilema.com/2020/qntra-sqntr-closing-statement/ << Trilema -- Qntra (S.QNTR) Closing Statement
~ 2 hours 59 minutes ~
14:52 diana_coman http://younghands.club/2020/04/06/jfw-plan-week-of-6-apr-2020/#comment-625 - jfw, that's at least an interesting question; as usual though, I'd say the evaluation starts not from imagined benefits but from very real and concrete costs (of keeping it private); for one thing, if I understand correctly that you do make that available to your clients, then how exactly are you going to keep it private ?
14:52 diana_coman what, you make them sign papers and then chase the leak or what?
14:52 diana_coman dorion: the above is supposedly of equal interest to you too.
15:03 diana_coman whaack: did you figure out if all that data collection thing is of much interest to you or not?
15:04 diana_coman BingoBoingo: do I understand correctly that you'd rather drop that plan & review stuff as it's not of much use to you?
~ 18 minutes ~
15:22 jfw diana_coman: I don't fancy pushing NDAs and chasing leaks, no.
15:23 trinque ^ great way to buy your lawyer a boat
15:23 jfw seems like the kind of game that you have to be microsoft to play
15:24 trinque even them, the windows source code has leaked how many times
15:24 diana_coman jfw: I'd have thought it obvious too, but the question didn't seem to care about it, lolz.
15:25 jfw trinque: sure, I imagine the boat floats so long as you can bail faster than the leaks.
15:26 BingoBoingo diana_coman: I'm going to try to get back on the review and plan horse, but with the turn to the IRL Sunday has become the day I've been getting restless, putting miles on the shoes, and not coming up with much out of it.
15:27 * diana_coman still read that "so long as you can boil faster than the leeks"
15:27 diana_coman BingoBoingo: I'd have thought Sundays were supposedly the most nothing-happens-days even at best at times, no?
15:27 diana_coman I mean I get the restlessness but ...
15:29 BingoBoingo diana_coman: Well, now it's the day when there's some people on the street buying groceries at the feria. It was the boring day when everything was closed.
15:29 BingoBoingo Now most places are closed every day.
15:35 jfw diana_coman: what's less obvious to me is whether there's a middle ground between truly secret and actively published by us, that could work at some scale. Because there's value in ready access, which I figure is part of why a central dealer of a product can make a spread even if his counterparts could otherwise trade privately
15:37 jfw perhaps a closer analogy, sometimes people still buy music even if they can torrent it free, because there's more certainty / consistency
15:40 jfw one obvious cost of keeping private though is lack of feedback from people here (even if we don't go to the 'open source' notion of 'many eyeballs' materializing from the ether)
15:41 diana_coman jfw: more to the point the question is what are you selling there exactly? because if you imagine that you are selling the recipe aka the text, the "intellectual property" or similar, then a. you don't have anything worth selling b. you'll play that leeks-for-the-lawyer game.
15:43 jfw we're selling training, so focus on the active part of that rather than some imagined income from textbook royalties essentially?
15:44 diana_coman jfw: that's pretty much how it looks to me, yes.
15:47 diana_coman jfw: sure, you can also sell whatever printed copies/nicely set/certified-by-jwrd copies I suppose, not like it's forbidden or not possible (ie re your buying music even if available otherwise for free) but again, there as with the training, you are selling that additional part & guarantee, not the "recipe"
15:48 jfw diana_coman: alright thanks, would be nice to avoid "semi-private document" dances if indeed there's no benefit. I'll let it simmer and see if further objections come to mind.
15:49 diana_coman jfw: lol, you are still after the benefits, ok.
15:50 jfw d'oh.
15:53 diana_coman jfw: I don't know how well you get/are aware of eulora&smg otherwise but in any case, if you want to look at it for this sort of question, what you'd need to look at is ~what's the private part, what are the reasons given for keeping it private and how narrowly/widely is it cut out of the rest otherwise
15:54 diana_coman but other than that, ~any "must-be-kept-private" is a significant cost the way I see it and one that needs to be *justified* well to consider taking it on; sure, maybe that's just me, can be.
15:55 jfw my picture of eulora is that the server internals are kept private because part of the game is exploring to learn what's in the environment and how it responds
15:56 diana_coman quite, yes.
16:05 jfw where was it MP wrote that the thing with spam isn't that it pays, but that people imagine it pays because they see others doing it, and so goes the feedback loop. possibly why I imagine that quasi-secrecy can pay.
16:15 diana_coman jfw: tbh I'd say the benefit is first of all that you can point to it and clearly say "here it is, first time, made by JWRD"; which goes away the moment someone else publishes the paper they got from you, you know?
16:17 jfw that's a point.
16:17 diana_coman other than that sure, I can see the usual game with idiots going "oh, but it's public info"; in which case, sure let them see what they can do with the "public info" on their own, that sort of "clients" are going to keep being more trouble than it's worth it as far as I'm concerned; then again, if you want those...
16:18 diana_coman dorion: what's your view on this secret documentation anyway? (see the thread above)
~ 18 minutes ~
16:37 billymg http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-08#1023882 << that's the general outline, yeah
16:37 ossabot Logged on 2020-04-08 12:20:02 trinque: billymg: if I'm reading correctly the idea is to put your item in an existing plugin, and later get rid of the plugin mechanism?
16:43 billymg althoug a recent discussion with jfw has me wondering what level of customization should be available in a project like mp-wp, and how that customization should be handled
16:43 billymg although*
16:45 billymg for example: the footnotes plugin allows for the adjustment of some constants to change e.g. the markers from decimal numbres to roman numerals, or the code itself can be modified to alter the generated markup
16:45 billymg and then there's the example of spyked's use of a markdown plugin for his build
16:46 billymg i won't get into themes, those to me are 100% operator owned and meant to be customized wholesale
16:48 billymg but jfw brought up a good point, that if one needs/wants to customize parts of mp-wp (which seems entirely valid in th case of a blogging platform -- it's *your* site afterall) then it becomes more difficult to pull in new work from another branch
16:50 jfw the footnote identifier case seems simple: there's already code there for decimal or roman numerals, so unless you get rid of one, the optionality is there.
16:51 billymg jfw: as in what the constant is set to?
16:52 jfw however it's implemented, there's a switch that's meant to be operator-exposed.
16:54 jfw whereas in the case of the footnote delimiters, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957382
16:54 ossabot (trilema) 2020-01-27 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957358 << honestly, no. i think the "option" to "pick the special chars" was useful at the onset, when i was figuring out how the world should work, but double-parens is so well established by now, even etymologically! ("every time you go on a tanget, you have to decide -- is your paranthetical is simple or double?") that it needn't be misrepresented as an option anymo
16:57 billymg jfw: yes, and in that same thread i described removing the code that writes the options to the db (and exposes them to operator), with the idea that "operator" in this case can edit a constant and doesn't need checkboxes in UI to update db
16:58 jfw my 'simple' is a bit too simple above: it makes sense for the identifier style to be configurable because experience showed that both styles worked well in different themes.
16:59 jfw billymg: possibly he didn't realize this was among the db-configured options?
17:00 billymg yes, possibly
17:00 jfw personally I'd prefer more config through... config files, and leave the database for... data! hence my suggesting a wp-config.php variable. it'd be a question of whether one cares about admin GUIs.
17:01 billymg jfw: i agree, i would favor the flags in wp-config.php instead of the db (which then requires the extra db and gui code for adjusting them(
17:13 billymg jfw: it sounds like i had it wrong with my initial reasoning of "user can edit footnotes.php". yes, user can edit php file, but options/settings/config should be pulled as much as possible into wp-config.php so that when one presses a new patch only one file needs to be edited to restore their customizations
17:15 billymg and by that logic, this value should perhaps also be pulled into wp-config.php
17:16 billymg or not, and have users overwrite in theme css
17:17 billymg but if not that then maybe a flag for whether pre/post identifiers are inside/outside the <a> tag (referencing your tweak for the footnote markers)
17:26 billymg i'm curious what others think about this list of options from the footnotes plugin: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=XSi4
17:28 billymg it could be that this whole options map can be set in wp-config.php, and then the plugin would read from what's there and set defaults for missing keys (similar to what it did previously with the database)
17:34 billymg ^ diana_coman whaack trinque spyked BingoBoingo dorion lobbes
~ 1 hours 23 minutes ~
18:57 jfw billymg: could that 670px be done as a percentage of the parent element's width?
19:01 trinque billymg: I'd say first yes, pull all the optionality dorkitude into one place, but then aggressively prune said optionality.
19:02 jfw afaik I'm the only one using the pre/post identifier knob for my (i) footnotes, and I'd live without 'em
19:05 jfw what I like about them is that when pasting you don't end up with wordsi like thisii
19:06 trinque the roman numeral / digit distinction can just as well be custom css
19:06 trinque and probably ought
19:07 * jfw bbl
19:07 trinque I'm pretty skeptical that there's any need for theming other than custom css.
~ 18 minutes ~
19:25 * BingoBoingo finds the current footnote behavior acceptable
~ 2 hours 40 minutes ~
22:05 billymg http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-08#1023947 << good point, will set to 100% and users can always override if they want it something other than the width of their paragraphs
22:05 ossabot Logged on 2020-04-08 20:18:02 jfw: billymg: could that 670px be done as a percentage of the parent element's width?
22:07 billymg trinque: makes sense re: consolidate then prune strategy
22:12 billymg as for css roman numerals, the footnotes in the <ol> at the bottom of an article are set with css, but the footnotes interspersed in the article text are generated individually, not sure if those can be set via css
22:13 billymg http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-08#1023954 << i think this is what i'd like to get to eventually as well
22:13 ossabot Logged on 2020-04-08 20:27:37 trinque: I'm pretty skeptical that there's any need for theming other than custom css.
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