Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-09-23 | 2019-09-25 → ↓
05:13 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003638 - aka http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000508 - good to see you did ask him.
05:13 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 18:24:52 whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003628 << Well it is no longer a doubt after having spoken with asciilifeform. It may have been a protection/avoidance spew, but i can't recognize it as one myself.
05:13 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-23 16:28:43 diana_coman: whaack: good for you on admitting to it all; now, is http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003541 still an actual doubt or just yet another protection/avoidance spew?
05:13 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 11:24:17 whaack: asciilifeform: following from http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003544 I am considering submitting to training under diana_coman, but before I pulled the trigger I thought I should stop here and ask if you feel it would be wiser for me to submit to training under you. Is this something you are interested in, and if so what would be required of me for you to take me?
05:13 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-23 10:51:45 diana_coman: whaack: so ask them directly, why not ask? fwiw yes, I would send you to someone else if I think it's a better fit but I don't know if "transfer" is the word for it; for one thing, you're not a package to just transfer; for the other, you can't and shouldn't eschew choice; see http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/fog-of-war/#comment-43
05:13 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 11:01:46 whaack: diana_coman: Japan certainly will be blogged! Well I do feel already decided; I don't feel the need to think it over in Japan - I would rather just have guidance on how to make best use of that trip. The only doubt I would have would be that perhaps asciilifeform or another lord is looking for someone and i would be better off serving them... but it seems you are the lord interested in training with younghands et all
05:14 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003641 - good; I'll get you set up there in a bit.
05:14 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 18:32:00 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003520 << I cannot think of a reason to turn this offer down, so I will say 'yes'. Maybe at the one per month frequency.
05:14 ericbot Logged on 2019-09-23 09:21:05 diana_coman: lobbes: you are doing quite well there from what I see with planning and sticking to it on the mp-wp work but at any rate - would you find it useful to have also a more general plan+review for yourself on younghands.club? ie going beyond just this one mp-wp current task; maybe for 2 weeks/1 month stretches at a time?
05:16 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003658 - that was in 2014 though, back when one still thought DNS might have some use; meanwhile http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/
05:16 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 18:50:41 whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003635 << ztkfg.com was based on http://trilema.com/2014/why-everything-you-think-you-know-about-dns-is-entirely-wrong/ and grabbing a small character count. but i will consider switching to whaacked
05:16 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-23 17:32:28 diana_coman: whaack: fwiw, whaacked.com is an easier to remember domain than ztkfg.com
05:21 diana_coman whaack: overall re domain name, it's mainly a question of what's your target really - if you target mainly those searching you via google, it makes sense perhaps to keep as primary ztkfg (I'd have said something ~readable even if short+unusual combination of starting letters); if you target those coming to you via WoT, all that stuff is irrelevant really and you might want to make it easier instead to link it with your name as you build yo
05:22 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003662 - nice; I hope you have a decent camera with you too, yes?
05:22 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 18:55:56 whaack: lobbes: cool! I am going to Tokyo and Kyoto. I also am stopping in Seoul, Korea for a few days
~ 17 minutes ~
05:39 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511 - not a bad idea at all, go ahead and write it.
05:39 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 11:56:55 whaack: asciilifeform: Okay, I think that itself deserves a blog post. The short answer is: programming (i have enjoyed going through SICP quite a bit, although its on hold, I want to learn how to program faster to eat through lots of saltmine work quickly), cryptography (i want to have trb "fit in head"), learning 2nd language (Spanish) , playing the guitar
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
07:01 diana_coman lobbes: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o4pw
07:05 diana_coman whaack: I'll give you a chance, make the most of it; http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=TaQJ
07:11 diana_coman thimbronion: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=w2HC
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~
08:21 whaack diana_coman: thank you *bows*
08:23 whaack diana_coman: nice; I hope you have a decent camera with you too, yes? << Yes, I considered getting http://ossasepia.com/2019/08/12/camera-tests-of-a-sunday/ but a friend has a small Canon they are going to give me for the trip.
08:28 diana_coman whaack: well, you'll need a good camera in costa rica too
08:29 diana_coman you know your resources atm but that camera is worth its price.
08:30 diana_coman whaack: let me know when you got your return date.
~ 26 minutes ~
08:56 whaack whaack: let me know when you got your return date. << Okay. Do you have a task or init younghands post you would like me to do prior to Thursday when I leave for JP?
08:58 diana_coman whaack: atm you need to http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-23#1003633 ; the younghands posts will be weekly plans+reviews so best start on those when you get back.
08:58 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-23 17:45:27 diana_coman: whaack: re the 2 blogs - you can't run away from yourself; so do yourself a favour and stop trying to split: get the content in one single place, redirect the other domain so no links are broken and stick with it; it's fine to cringe at your own past-doings and it's even healthy because it IS a sign of growth.
09:00 diana_coman whaack: do you have some specific plan for the trip?
09:02 diana_coman it's very little time until Thursday and you have already the above + http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003682 to write on your blog so do those, it's fine.
09:02 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 05:55:31 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511 - not a bad idea at all, go ahead and write it.
09:03 diana_coman hm, interesting; let's test: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511
09:03 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-23 11:41:10 whaack: asciilifeform: Okay, I think that itself deserves a blog post. The short answer is: programming (i have enjoyed going through SICP quite a bit, although its on hold, I want to learn how to program faster to eat through lots of saltmine work quickly), cryptography (i want to have trb "fit in head"), learning 2nd language (Spanish) , playing the guitar
09:04 diana_coman and test part 2: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003698
09:04 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 09:19:32 diana_coman: hm, interesting; let's test: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-23#1000511
09:04 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-23 11:41:10 whaack: asciilifeform: Okay, I think that itself deserves a blog post. The short answer is: programming (i have enjoyed going through SICP quite a bit, although its on hold, I want to learn how to program faster to eat through lots of saltmine work quickly), cryptography (i want to have trb "fit in head"), learning 2nd language (Spanish) , playing the guitar
09:05 diana_coman ha; asciilifeform where was this bot-cites-stuff-from-other-bot specced? I can see the point, but it does create as above difference depending on the interplay of bots rather than anything else, not sure this specific aspect was intended, was it?
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09:11 whaack diana_coman: no i don't have a specific plan for the trip. there are three of us total, the third person is a friend-of-a-friend. he has been the one putting together the itinerary. alright, I will try to merge my blogs and create a what-am-i-interested-in post before i head out
09:13 whaack and setup a bouncer for a travel handle is a top priority as well.
09:13 diana_coman whaack: sounds like a good opportunity to try your hand at travel-logging really; esp since interactions can get... interesting with friends-of-friends with whom you haven't travelled before.
09:13 diana_coman aha.
~ 1 hours 58 minutes ~
11:12 shrysr diana_coman: re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/23/week-10-review/#comment-22 , yes I think it is atleast one core of my problems and recently slow progress. I've managed to do the 2-headed approach sometimes in short phases, which is probably why i can do something in data-hag today. In general I've been more successful with this at mine stuff. But i regress back to 'knowing it all' very ...naturally,
11:12 shrysr almost on 'automatic'. I think one way to tackle it is to write out a project goal + plan and stick to it, and just file away 'related /deeper tasks or desired knowledge'...and to review frequently, but still strictly control whether I plunge into anything 'else'.
11:15 shrysr diana_coman: also ack the comment on the bash script post. ty. I understand what you've said, but still assimilating.
11:25 shrysr Re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/23/week-11-plan/#comment-21, I think that approach makes more sense; tbh the priority+practice part has been bothering me as well. Will post an updated plan with this style, as a new post superceding previous, if thats ok? btw: whyddya call it 'dev-style'?
~ 19 minutes ~
11:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003704 << was in mp's orig spec .
11:44 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-24 09:05:38 diana_coman: ha; asciilifeform where was this bot-cites-stuff-from-other-bot specced? I can see the point, but it does create as above difference depending on the interplay of bots rather than anything else, not sure this specific aspect was intended, was it?
~ 51 minutes ~
12:36 lobbes http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003685 << tyvm. I will aim to get a general workplan out for Oct by the end of today, methinks
12:36 ericbot Logged on 2019-09-24 10:17:53 diana_coman: lobbes: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o4pw
~ 44 minutes ~
13:20 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003709- sounds sensible, try it and see how it goes.
13:20 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 11:27:50 shrysr: almost on 'automatic'. I think one way to tackle it is to write out a project goal + plan and stick to it, and just file away 'related /deeper tasks or desired knowledge'...and to review frequently, but still strictly control whether I plunge into anything 'else'.
13:21 diana_coman shrysr: fwiw, it may be that you don't feel comfortable working with uncertainty essentially; it is curable, mainly through practice.
13:22 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003711 - mainly because it's close to how requirements for a piece of software are sometimes classed ie "must-have, nice-to-have"
13:22 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 11:41:33 shrysr: Re: http://younghands.club/2019/09/23/week-11-plan/#comment-21, I think that approach makes more sense; tbh the priority+practice part has been bothering me as well. Will post an updated plan with this style, as a new post superceding previous, if thats ok? btw: whyddya call it 'dev-style'?
13:24 diana_coman asciilifeform: do you see the difference I mean there ? (ie final result/cited lines depending on which logs are used by each person rather than on what is referenced)
13:25 diana_coman I'll mull this over a bit.
13:25 asciilifeform diana_coman: indeed depends on which logs.
13:26 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003714 - you still have a few days until the end of the month but if you want to have time for 1-2 iterations it's best to publish a draft sooner rather than later, indeed.
13:26 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 12:51:45 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003685 << tyvm. I will aim to get a general workplan out for Oct by the end of today, methinks
13:26 ericbot Logged on 2019-09-24 10:17:53 diana_coman: lobbes: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o4pw
13:26 asciilifeform diana_coman: i was considering a knob to toggle off citing of other-bots entirely , but shelved it, as mp said he dun care atm
13:27 asciilifeform diana_coman: it isn't difficult to implement, as config already contains a list of known bots to check against
13:28 diana_coman asciilifeform: atm I can see it both ways (just one line or full tree) but what bothers me is this difference based on bot-preference - I can't quite see the meaning of it.
13:29 diana_coman I'll think it over a bit longer and then add to the discussion at the spec if I still have something to say on it.
13:29 asciilifeform diana_coman: in principle i agree -- it dun add anyffin useful. but i wrote orig bot for mp and so tried to implement his spec literally
13:29 diana_coman shrysr: how's it going with your mine work too?
13:30 diana_coman asciilifeform: sure; as it is, it's perfectly to spec and therefore absolutely correct.
13:31 asciilifeform diana_coman: tbf it aint entirely as pictured in his spec (e.g. i took the liberty of citing each link on own line, to reduce truncation)
13:31 thimbronion diana_coman: My first post to younghands.club will address http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-22#1003475. Is that what it's for or is there a more formal spec for it's use?
13:31 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-22 19:28:51 diana_coman: thimbronion: so write then first the fuckup thing; by Weds if you say that's enough time; think of what constraints would bring the WoT piece to something manageable over a 1-2 weeks term and state those/ask.
13:31 asciilifeform diana_coman: if you want to make the toggle, don't hesitate, i'ma read & sign patch
13:32 asciilifeform imho this really oughta be an operator knob
13:33 asciilifeform ( prolly best way to implement it, is e.g. cited_bots=...,..., and then if speaker is a bot, citation is enabled only if said bot is in cited_bots )
13:33 asciilifeform ... this way, it would be possible to, for instance, disable citation strictly for some bot that has fallen out of sync
13:35 diana_coman thimbronion: since you have your own blog, I'd say it serves you best to write your stuff on your own blog so you have it there at any time later and use younghands.club for weekly plans+reviews.
13:35 asciilifeform cited_bots = bots would give the current behaviour.
13:35 diana_coman you are always welcome to write other/more posts on younghands.club too, there is no limit and no problem
13:35 diana_coman but essentially since it's your content, you'd naturally want it on your own blog, no?
13:38 diana_coman younghands.club is meant to be helpful 1. for keeping track of progress & getting timely feedback as I follow it 2. when/if one doesn't have own blog
13:39 thimbronion diana_coman: ok makes sense. I will post planning only on younghands. First post will be my plan for tackling the WoT piece.
13:39 diana_coman thimbronion: sounds good.
13:42 asciilifeform diana_coman: at the risk of off-topic -- how has been your experience of that moldavian hoster ? asciilifeform has been hunting for some places outside of piz to park certain things ( incl. own www, which is presently on a moribund heathen thing ; additional trb ; and potentially a pilot irc noad for trying to make a go of mp's 'motherfuckers, why are we on fleanode' thrust )
13:45 asciilifeform while on subj, it seems odd to me that we have already 3 ( 4? ) independent logotrons but at same time all sit on fleanode. these boxes really oughta be relays , then the problem of 'sync logs' evaporates. and then can actually attempt the social engineering to link up with older irc nets ( mp raged that 'no one even tried' but atm there aint anyffin to link up, no one has relay )
13:53 lobbes diana_coman: hmm, I noticed that younghands.club doesn't show any of the "Visual" knobs when composing a post, at least not for me. I composed a chunk of it on my own blog with all the formatting and figured I could just paste the html in the "Html" window, but I can't seem to select that either. Is this a known bug or is this something wrong on my end?
13:53 asciilifeform lobbes: i was under the impression that mp-wp jettisoned the 'visual' knobs
13:54 diana_coman lobbes: let me see, I think I disabled it; 1 min
13:56 diana_coman lobbes: it's actually enabled; do you mean you don't see the bar with the buttons ? or just the buttons or what?
13:56 diana_coman if you have it html, you need anyway the html tab - is that not working or what?
13:57 lobbes diana_coman: I don't see the bar with the buttons at all. But yeah, more importantly the html tab dun seem to work
13:57 lobbes as in, I click it but it dun 'switch'
13:57 diana_coman lobbes: I just logged in with your user and it ..does work
13:58 lobbes odd.. I'll try to log out then log back in
13:59 diana_coman fwiw on "visual" the icons on the buttons don't show; but switching the tabs works and buttons in html mode do show the icons etc.
13:59 lobbes weird, still won't 'switch' to html tab for me
13:59 lobbes maybe just a browser failure. I'm using chromium fwiw
13:59 diana_coman asciilifeform: re moldavians, they have been reliable and *very prompt* so far; they have only Intel dedicated servers though but for what I need them I'm happy with them;
14:00 diana_coman they *need* to be told /corrected basic stuff at times
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14:00 diana_coman but they are happy to do once asked and without any weird airs or anything
14:00 diana_coman and I just paid for 1 year with btc straight to address given too, no problem so far
14:01 diana_coman asciilifeform: re multiple networks, I'm looking to help someone step up to that plate, but they need to be ready too; it will happen though.
14:02 diana_coman lobbes: I'm using firefox here.
14:02 asciilifeform diana_coman: i've actually yet to see heathens offer anyffin but intel boxen, in last decade or so
14:02 lobbes diana_coman: I just tried with "iceweasel" but still to no avail. odd
14:02 asciilifeform diana_coman: from my pov , moar concerned with quality of connectivity , and cost, in that order
14:03 lobbes In any case, I've got my working draft saved over on my personal blog for now. I guess we have time to figure it out before Oct
14:04 asciilifeform diana_coman: can plox elaborate re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003764 ?
14:04 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-24 14:00:10 diana_coman: they *need* to be told /corrected basic stuff at times
14:10 diana_coman lobbes: what does it mean exactly "won't switch"? what happens, what's the state of the thing?
14:10 diana_coman !o uptime
14:10 ossabot diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 3d 0h 2m
14:11 diana_coman asciilifeform: ossabot lost connection only once really (and that time iirc it was after a netsplit)
14:11 diana_coman so I'm really quite happy so far; cheapest dedicated machine is 49 euros/month iirc ;
14:12 asciilifeform diana_coman: notbad.
14:13 diana_coman re basic stuff: they initially sent credentials plain-text via email, no server fingerprint either; another time they messed up one invoice twice (first hilariously charging 1 month fees for a whole year of service, then upon me pointing out that yo, silly, they just did *12 instead of *10)
14:14 asciilifeform diana_coman: initially -- and then agreed to pgp ?
14:14 diana_coman asciilifeform: yep; I told them ahem, re-generate and encrypt, here's my public key and they simply did it, directly and without further fuss or anything.
14:14 asciilifeform neato.
14:15 lobbes diana_coman: here's a screencap https://i.imgur.com/Cg7pBkk.png (i.e. I click on "HTML" tab and it remains "greyed out")
14:15 asciilifeform this is 1st time i hear of a heathen vendor seeing reason re pgp
14:15 diana_coman asciilifeform: I don't know if they saw reason beyond "she's paying nicely and she asked this of us" but I'm happy with that
14:16 asciilifeform diana_coman: i'm still chaffing from the time when i flew to europistan and met mp's barrister fella , and for no amt of fresh 100 $ , nor in 3 languages, could i get him to pgp
14:17 diana_coman asciilifeform: I suppose I'll actually do a write-up post on them, why not advertise them for tmsr anyway
14:17 asciilifeform a++ idea, will read
14:17 * lobbes will also read
14:18 diana_coman lobbes: the weird thing is that shrysr initially had the same trouble iirc ; http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-07-24#999260
14:18 ossabot Logged on 2019-07-24 09:45:00 shrysr: yes I see both tabs. HTML is greyed out. presuming the visual mode is active - but there's just a text input box, with no formatting option.
14:18 lobbes I also wonder if I was dumb for *not* requesting the heathen vendor I deal with to encrypt, or also dumb because I paid in heathenbux instead of btc
14:18 diana_coman shrysr: how did the visual/html thing get sorted out for you on younghands.club in the end?
14:19 diana_coman lobbes: as a rule - always ask
14:19 lobbes makes sense
14:20 diana_coman lobbes: hm, let me actually disable the visual mode, maybe you get just the html and be done with it
14:20 lobbes roger that
14:21 diana_coman lobbes: try re-login now
14:24 lobbes diana_coman: seems to do the trick!
14:24 diana_coman lobbes: good then, I'll put it on the list to disable it on all new accounts.
14:24 lobbes tyvm for your help troubleshooting
14:25 diana_coman yw
14:30 shrysr http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003794 << you disabled visual editor ..that works for me since I write in org mode markup and export to html for younghands posts. Visual mode had no formatting options iirc.
14:30 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 14:34:44 diana_coman: shrysr: how did the visual/html thing get sorted out for you on younghands.club in the end?
14:30 ossabot Logged on 2019-07-24 09:47:00 diana_coman: I've deactivated the visual editor for you so hopefully you get only the html one
14:30 ossabot Logged on 2019-07-24 09:45:00 shrysr: yes I see both tabs. HTML is greyed out. presuming the visual mode is active - but there's just a text input box, with no formatting option.
14:30 shrysr ah ok
~ 34 minutes ~
15:05 shrysr http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003732 << lol. Okayish. The activity level/balance is still not as desired... but I've been making sure to have 'something decent' to show / explain for 'spot-whaddya-doing-questions'. I've also got the erp consultant doing some init work to jumpstart me into 'jinja' templating or whatever..to enable custom print formats of docs. I guess it will be useful
15:05 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 13:45:42 diana_coman: shrysr: how's it going with your mine work too?
15:05 shrysr as exposure... fwiw (considering volatility) had brief run in with head orcs yest, it would seem that despite their init stupid remarks - my message did get across and they appear kindda satisfied. I guess, i'm a little surprised. fwiw - i am expecting activity level to reach the desired level once the plan to address skill deficit becomes clear as well.
15:17 diana_coman shrysr: ok.
~ 20 minutes ~
15:37 diana_coman shrysr: just in case it wasn't clear - I asked you re work-at-mines just to make sure you are keeping on top of that too, that's all; from what you say, you are, hence ok.
15:49 shrysr diana_coman: yes I understood it as you just said, and totally appreciate you asking tbh. its definitely a danger point for me esp in current env, i.e neglecting it.. previous mines usually had somebody looking into things and better definitions of tasks... or lol, cd be said had some buffer against being shredded.. sure i align a reason for everything i do, but i guess I havent exp this extent of
15:49 shrysr mine-orcs-blindness perhaps.. its hard to keep up morale.
15:53 diana_coman shrysr: well, you need to keep an eye on it and not neglect it until you can move on.
15:55 shrysr yes. I will.
16:08 shrysr http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-24#1003718 << to some extent perhaps. I guess I've faced this particularly w.r.t data-hag - therez no 'standard' way of doing things.... and bucket-loads of hype.. It was terribly unsettling for a long time and thankfully much less so now. It's taken a long time to identify shit as shit and filter it and feel reassured that i'm not entirely on the wrong path
16:08 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-24 13:37:23 diana_coman: shrysr: fwiw, it may be that you don't feel comfortable working with uncertainty essentially; it is curable, mainly through practice.
16:08 shrysr in terms of prep/thinking. Good example of filtering, which is how I found Matt Dancho.. and got a jumpstart in R through his courses and interacting with him. I've literally seen that 80-20 package list work via the erp project.... helped as well that he has a mech engg bg like me and is quite honest in interactions.
~ 24 minutes ~
16:33 diana_coman shrysr: as a basic rule, the "our quest is to prove these theories" is ~= "we are idiots"
16:37 diana_coman shrysr: I know the appeal of "data-based approach" and "scientific analysis" but the substance is not at all solid just because "analysed data" or "it seems to work";
16:38 diana_coman basically the danger is that by the time you get to understand enough to even be able to see the ways in which the thing you bought from them is broken, it's way too late to not get hurt by it.
16:39 diana_coman this is why it's actually *safer* to ignore all of them *especially* when you don't know anything about the domain; it's counterintuitive and possibly depressing, I know; it still is what it is.
~ 39 minutes ~
17:19 shrysr i see your point. fwiw i don't think it is counter intuitive, if approached with sense ( and a great deal of it). However, it would also seem that not getting hurt/ being able to 'see as not solid' is largely abt keeping wits/open mind and not getting sucked into what is being bought right? You can ignore them all, but to learn - you need to find either a master, or a book or course.. or of course job.
17:19 shrysr Books /course are obv easiest to find... and even there it takes time to filter.
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