#trilema | 2019-09-06

trinque: neato

~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~

01:18

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933845 << ah this is perfect, ty! Will use

01:18

Logged on 2019-09-05 11:29:06 asciilifeform: lobbes: you can also sync the way diana_coman did , using the raw dump knob and eater .

01:18

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933941 << I don't mind taking this on, though I warn that I will absolutely take longer than asciilifeform would!

01:18

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:12:54 asciilifeform: ty diana_coman . if lobbes also occupied, i'ma do it

01:18

I think, in general, it makes sense for me to chew through the logotron "todo" list right now. I would eventually like to get a php version of the reader.py written for purposes of comparison.

01:18

But, in order to do this I need to fully understand the "guts" of the logotron anyway, and eating the current todo list I think will help to achieve this. Plus the code is already fresh in my mind!

~ 2 hours 14 minutes ~

03:32

lobbes: ericbot overboard? lolz

~ 39 minutes ~

04:12

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-04#1933666 <-- was a great test for feedbot 'reliable failure', tho

04:12

Logged on 2019-09-04 11:35:45 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-04#1933645 << dead as of '16 iirc

04:12

Logged on 2019-09-04 08:57:46 spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-03#1933426 <-- speaking of which, I notice there's a feed in there, btcalpha.com, which consistently clogs up the bot. I'm guessing the site it points to is long dead, shall I remove it?

04:12

Logged on 2019-09-03 14:06:42 mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Ti4kZ/?raw=true << feedbot scrollback, keks

04:15

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-04#1933705 <-- imho his vtron is worth at least mirroring.

04:15

Logged on 2019-09-04 14:13:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did anyone ever find out where esthlos went ?

04:16

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-04#1933696 <-- ok, will take 'em (and the ones mentioned subsequently) off as soon as I get the free hands.

04:16

Logged on 2019-09-04 13:25:57 mircea_popescu: spyked, wow look at that. okay, so btcalpha, anco.is, esthlos.com can all come off.

04:21

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-04#1933694 <-- ftr, I'm pretty sure that the same coat can be applied to mp-wp without much effort. so if e.g. billymg is interested, I can provide him with everything he needs; tho the blog is online already, not especially difficult to see how the webpage is structured.

04:21

Logged on 2019-09-04 13:20:53 asciilifeform: spyked: 'I still haven't genesized The Tar Pit; by the way, is there anyone else out there interested in using it?' << me. i'ma be moving my www and quite interested in all approaches to de-php-izing . and you have imho a++ visual coat on yours.

04:25

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933930 <-- eh, when I first wrote the blog, I chose "markdown" as markup, so now would have to write some extra code to take the generated html content and add it to mp-wp db; problem is, there's the manual step of verifying that the resulting content looks okay, and e.g. the photoblog posts use thetarpit-specific css.

04:25

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:04:58 mircea_popescu: spyked, "the painstaking labour involved in moving every post to MP-WP (plus fixing the links) would take a yet-to-be-determined amount of time" << why is this to be a pain ?

04:26

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933944 <-- certainly a lot missing on this side of things

04:26

Logged on 2019-09-05 19:31:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, all but for comments which, once done, will expose all but for trackbacks and all but for antisspam

04:29

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933935 <-- not entirely. at this point, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933934 is in the phase where "let's use these pieces we've reviewed to do some useful X", where X can be blogotron comments, logotron frontend, etc. so say I illustrate Hunchentoot through these applications; are they to be just for didactic purpose? and if yes, then w

04:29

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:09:18 mircea_popescu: but imo it's folly to try and marry 1 to 2 because of what's, ultimately, merely a name coincidence.

04:29

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:08:22 mircea_popescu: 2. re lisp, i do believe finishing the hutch story is very useful.

04:29

hat's the usefulness in the end if I'm not gonna do anything productive with it?

04:34

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933956 <-- I can defo see the productivity advantage of integrated img resizer, but when /me wrote this, he took the opposite philosophical standpoint: text can be written using whatever text editor the user wishes; and uploaded to blog however he wishes. similarly, images can be processed using i

04:34

Logged on 2019-09-04 05:34:47 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-03#1933586 << in any case disintegration is probably the road towards manageability of software

04:34

Logged on 2019-09-05 20:07:40 mircea_popescu: what people don't realise is just HOW unlinear the returns are.

04:34

magemagick (what I believe mp-wp uses currently?) or gimp batch processer; regardless of what is to be used, the tools *are already there*, it's the user's problem how or what he uses. I for one don't wanna use web interface for photo processing, nor did I ever intend to add this to thetarpit, nor would I stop anyone from adding them if they wish

04:35

e.g. I never seriously considered adding comments before tmsr, because who else would comment? and similarly for trackbacks

04:37

anyway, I guess the q is in fact whether there's any use to this entire lisp-webstuff exercise. if not, I can go back to wp and work on other stuff, there's no shortage of that.

04:39

*

spyked is going to mull on this for the next week or so, meanwhile will prioritize vpatches he has in the queue

04:42

in other news, I'll be outta town this weekend and for a few days next week. should have a buncha photos to post afterwards

04:45

aaand bbl, putting gas mask on for dive into saecular liquishit

~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~

06:15

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1933996 << for all the whining re php, one thing mp-wp most definitely does right is that it separates the article from the mark-up

06:16

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:25:25 spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933930 <-- eh, when I first wrote the blog, I chose "markdown" as markup, so now would have to write some extra code to take the generated html content and add it to mp-wp db; problem is, there's the manual step of verifying that the resulting content looks okay, and e.g. the photoblog posts use thetarpit-specific css.

06:16

so technically, you'd have to clean up your articles, so they're actual articles before they can be put in the db ?

06:16

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:04:58 mircea_popescu: spyked, "the painstaking labour involved in moving every post to MP-WP (plus fixing the links) would take a yet-to-be-determined amount of time" << why is this to be a pain ?

~ 15 minutes ~

06:31

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934003 << i don't know if didactic's the word, rather evaluatory. we want to know what exact dragons lay there, in the general, and you declared yourself interested in lisp, so it seemed a very natural fit ; then you self-selected the task and i didnt have any objectiosn, for these reasons.\

06:31

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:29:58 spyked: hat's the usefulness in the end if I'm not gonna do anything productive with it?

06:33

consider the illustrative (is it didactic, nwo that's illustrative ?) case of alf's py logotron : NOW that he's done it, i can say things like depends what you count ; before, i couldn't very well have.

06:35

if you never put the work in to evaluate hutch, there'd never have been any basis for [][conclusions] << my comment re "this isn't lisp" should have gone in there, but i can't fucking find it because on your blog has no recent posts nor in the logsearch because thetarp hutch return nothing becuase your blog doesn't have title-urls.

06:36

title-urls are fucking important!

06:37

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934000 << i've yet to see lisp actually do anything useful, so this'd be a quindecennial first.

06:37

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:29:51 spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933935 <-- not entirely. at this point, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933934 is in the phase where "let's use these pieces we've reviewed to do some useful X", where X can be blogotron comments, logotron frontend, etc. so say I illustrate Hunchentoot through these applications; are they to be just for didactic purpose? and if yes, then w

06:37

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:09:18 mircea_popescu: but imo it's folly to try and marry 1 to 2 because of what's, ultimately, merely a name coincidence.

06:37

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:08:22 mircea_popescu: 2. re lisp, i do believe finishing the hutch story is very useful.

06:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934009 << i don't know yet ; superficially hutchentoot seems like it's python-in-lisp as a stotting exercise by the sort of sparsely-beareded / unemployable postdoc students that do this sort of dumb shit because they can (or can't get laid).

06:39

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:37:38 spyked: anyway, I guess the q is in fact whether there's any use to this entire lisp-webstuff exercise. if not, I can go back to wp and work on other stuff, there's no shortage of that.

06:41

i have no strong feeling either way, it's your toy as far as i'm concerned. if you judge it's worth pushing forward by all means, let's see what comes of it, and if you judge this is just a waste of time, by all means, it can stand like that, "spyked went on lisp expedition cca 2019, upon consideration it didn't seem worth bothering with"

06:41

i really can't atm tell the difference between gcc-in-php and hutchentoote, myself. but i am a sluggish intellect, takes me a while.

06:46

(as an aside, leaving be the situation where this is entirely obscure arcana, top results on "hutchentoot" searches include 2015 tmsr logs, consider http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/scripting-in-cl-please-comment/239090 as a fine illustration, the moneyshot being macro index,pager <F7> " <enter-command> set pipe_decode=yes<enter> <enter-command> set my_wait_key=\$wait_key wait_key=no<enter> <pipe-message>/home/tpapp/so

06:46

ftware/misc/savebody<enter> <enter-command> set wait_key=\$my_wait_key &my_wait_key<enter> <enter-command> set pipe_decode=no<enter> " "view message body in browser"

06:46

i expect it's needless to say moar.)

06:47

no, cl isn't the lang the fucktard knows best -- that's transparently excel/vb whatever. but whatevs.

06:50

(this, also, before we get into "Hunchentoot talks with its front-end or with the client over TCP/IP sockets and optionally uses multiprocessing to handle several requests at the same time. Therefore, it cannot be implemented completely in portable Common Lisp. It currently works with LispWorks and all Lisps which are supported by the compatibility layers usocket and Bordeaux Threads." discussions.)

06:51

"Hunchentoot is (or was) for example used by <a href="http://quickhoney.com/">QuickHoney</a>, <a href="http://www.city-farming.de/">City Farming</a>, <a href="http://heikestephan.de/">Heike Stephan</a>." << forgot to put that lulz in the log somehow.

06:51

fancy that, useful lisp!

06:54

also in the lulz, "Hunchentoot does not come with code to help with running it on a privileged port (i.e. port 80 or 443) on Unix-like operating systems. Modern Unix-like systems have specific, non-portable ways to allow non-root users to listen to privileged ports, so including such functionality in Hunchentoot was considered unnecessary. Please refer to online resources for help. At the time of this writing, [http://yaws

06:54

.hyber.org/privbind.yaws][the YAWS documentation] has a comprehensive writeup on the topic." << the link is something else, its spurious whie really bolsters the useless postdoc angle.

06:56

(different pos wanna-wanna-wanna be server.)

~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~

08:33

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934014 <-- more along the lines of: convert from thetarpit-format to mp-wp-format so that paragraphs, photos etc. display properly; it's not a big deal, but I expect there are a few unknowns that might require manually walking the article list. which isn't *that* big, but still.

08:33

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:31:19 mircea_popescu: so technically, you'd have to clean up your articles, so they're actual articles before they can be put in the db ?

08:35

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934020 <-- there's no "conclusion" post, but yeah, these oughta go somewhere. the closest thing to a conclusion is http://thetarpit.org/posts/y06/09d-hunchentoot-vib.html#selection-970.0-970.7

08:35

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:51:30 mircea_popescu: if you never put the work in to evaluate hutch, there'd never have been any basis for [][conclusions] << my comment re "this isn't lisp" should have gone in there, but i can't fucking find it because on your blog has no recent posts nor in the logsearch because thetarp hutch return nothing becuase your blog doesn't have title-urls.

08:36

other than that, I guess you meant "recent comments"? recent posts are on the main page; and as for title-urls, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=from%3Afeedbot+hunchentoot&chan=trilema works from what I see

08:38

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934022 <-- hm, that's a very strong point re. this decision whether to continue or not. well, #trilema has some IRC bots powered by Lisp, so that's something.

08:38

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:52:48 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934000 << i've yet to see lisp actually do anything useful, so this'd be a quindecennial first.

08:38

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:29:51 spyked: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933935 <-- not entirely. at this point, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933934 is in the phase where "let's use these pieces we've reviewed to do some useful X", where X can be blogotron comments, logotron frontend, etc. so say I illustrate Hunchentoot through these applications; are they to be just for didactic purpose? and if yes, then w

08:38

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:09:18 mircea_popescu: but imo it's folly to try and marry 1 to 2 because of what's, ultimately, merely a name coincidence.

08:38

Logged on 2019-09-05 18:08:22 mircea_popescu: 2. re lisp, i do believe finishing the hutch story is very useful.

08:40

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934030 <-- hm. who's that? can't seem to relate it to the subj. in any way (other than the post mentioning CL)

08:40

Logged on 2019-09-06 07:01:51 mircea_popescu: (as an aside, leaving be the situation where this is entirely obscure arcana, top results on "hutchentoot" searches include 2015 tmsr logs, consider http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/scripting-in-cl-please-comment/239090 as a fine illustration, the moneyshot being macro index,pager <F7> " <enter-command> set pipe_decode=yes<enter> <enter-command> set my_wait_key=\$wait_key wait_key=no<enter> <pipe-message>/h

08:45

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934029 <-- not sure thetarpit's current code is more than "php scripting in Lisp" either, it was written in my CL-noob years. the webpage generation bits are pretty nifty tho, on account of cl-who.

08:45

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:57:23 mircea_popescu: i really can't atm tell the difference between gcc-in-php and hutchentoote, myself. but i am a sluggish intellect, takes me a while.

08:50

hm, rereading http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934017 , I'm thinking I should really write a summary/post-mortem post. but more generally, I need to organize all the comments so far (and whatever's to come) and see what to make of this.

08:50

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:47:33 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934003 << i don't know if didactic's the word, rather evaluatory. we want to know what exact dragons lay there, in the general, and you declared yourself interested in lisp, so it seemed a very natural fit ; then you self-selected the task and i didnt have any objectiosn, for these reasons.\

08:50

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:29:58 spyked: hat's the usefulness in the end if I'm not gonna do anything productive with it?

08:51

in any case, I'll publish the hunchentoot genesis today, as promised. /me bbl again

~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~

09:59

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1933983 - fwiw this sounds like a good plan to me.

09:59

Logged on 2019-09-06 01:34:11 lobbes: I think, in general, it makes sense for me to chew through the logotron "todo" list right now. I would eventually like to get a php version of the reader.py written for purposes of comparison.

~ 51 minutes ~

10:51

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1933985 << ugh, looks like I lost ~2 hours of logs

10:51

Logged on 2019-09-06 03:32:53 diana_coman: lobbes: ericbot overboard? lolz

10:51

lobbesbot

Logged on 2019-09-06 05:55:02: *** Quits: ericbot (~ericbot@208.70.251.10) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)

10:51

^ incidentally, I love connectolade in logs for just such reasons

10:52

may make that a patch in logotron... eventually!

10:54

!!up ericbot

10:54

deedbot

ericbot voiced for 30 minutes.

10:54

!e uptime

10:54

ericbot

lobbes: time since my last reconnect : 1d 7h 30m

10:54

^ definitely some funkiness with the !e uptime reporting too (ty diana for pointing that out in #o)

10:55

I will dig later tonight / this weekend. Will see what I can figure out

~ 39 minutes ~

11:35

lobbes: what's in yer bot log ?

11:35

lobbes: i.e. what did it do for those 2h instead of reconnecting ? ( or didja have to cycle it manually..? )

11:41

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934022 << can't resist the bait -- neither the 3y of phf's logger, nor deedbot, 'useful' ? ( or does 'see' require that proggy is actually published ? or wat. )

11:41

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:37:14 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934000 << i've yet to see lisp actually do anything useful, so this'd be a quindecennial first.

11:42

asciilifeform, useful here is used to denote the situation where it ~actually forces environmental change around itself~. in this sense, apache is successful, but linux is unsuccessful.

11:43

byantines, successful, us about to become unsuccessful (ie, its fundamental unsuccessfulability preparing to become manifest)

11:43

*

diana_coman takes note of unsuccessfulability

11:43

:D

11:43

important concept of the cult!!!

11:44

apropos : http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934034 << this gripe is factual -- cl standard was written by 'tower of babel' and specifically excluded unix knobs. so all ~usable pc lisps in fact have nonstandard knobs for threads, sockets, etc. iirc this was detailed in prev. threads.

11:44

Logged on 2019-09-06 06:50:37 mircea_popescu: (this, also, before we get into "Hunchentoot talks with its front-end or with the client over TCP/IP sockets and optionally uses multiprocessing to handle several requests at the same time. Therefore, it cannot be implemented completely in portable Common Lisp. It currently works with LispWorks and all Lisps which are supported by the compatibility layers usocket and Bordeaux Threads." discussions.)

11:44

since I just walloped poor shrysr for misuse of "tragedy", might as well start compiling a "basic vocabulary for younghands graduation@

11:44

asciilifeform, un rasad uscat prolly interestinf precursor

11:49

mircea_popescu: illuminate plox ?

11:49

which ?

11:50

the linked piece. i dun know the cultural refs.

11:50

*

asciilifeform brb:teatime

11:50

ah. "rock music", right ? the culty group of the 90s ?

11:51

piece in short says that even the ridoinculous ufo-religions of the ustards / futurology produced things (eg, apple. or wikipedia)

11:51

but "rockers"...

~ 25 minutes ~

12:16

*

asciilifeform even as a child, was allergic, so prolly last 1 who should be asked. and in fact if could buy a martian radio that somehow tunes, back in space and time, in sovok circa 1984 -- ~would~ .

12:21

in fact ~this~ is largely for what asciilifeform uses his sound card.

12:21

*

asciilifeform cold, as a stone, to 'rock' and the other digestive enzymes of the octopus.

12:21

o.O asciilifeform's sound card tunes back in space and time to sovok circa 1984 ??

12:33

feedbot

http://thetarpit.org/posts/y06/09f-hunchentoot-genesis.html << The Tar Pit -- Hunchentoot genesis

12:42

so you mean like, the trololo guy ?! corina chiriac ?!

12:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L98RF213Kc << the martian radio service grants wishes

12:45

diana_coman: just about .

12:48

*

diana_coman sings macaraaaale / rad in soareee

12:48

argintii... macarale...

12:49

*

asciilifeform sadly not expert classicist in ro-sovok; from it knows only 'trei culori cunosc pe lume...'

12:49

for completeness @rotaku, [www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvNFrn2uLrs][macarale]

12:50

So local news. In the past 24 hours the local cops have been involved in 2 incidents which are very oppressive by Uruguay standards and unremarkable in most other parts of the world.

12:51

BingoBoingo: lemme guess, they ticketed a motoroller

12:51

for parking on sidewalk.

12:51

keks

12:52

1. Yesterday the cops put themselves in front of a farmers march. The folks with tractors and horses prevailed without anything notable byeond the confrontation.

12:52

diana_coman: square links only work if have the htt... prefix

12:52

did they start feeling up poor chicks on the side of road ?

12:52

2. Last night police stopped an anti-papermill march that had gone hooligan with the rubber bullets

12:53

BingoBoingo: what do the orcs have against paper ?

12:53

"trabajo" si, trabajo no

12:53

asciilifeform: They hate that the new paper mill will *EMPLOY* people

12:54

i expect this'll be the standard in socialism.

12:54

And that it'll eat the eucalyptus trees that don't belong here anyways

12:54

i still dunget it... is it american paper mill? or wat

12:54

a.

12:54

if kids in school can hate it / try and bully kids who learn in school

12:54

asciilifeform: UPM, Finish firm. THis will be their second here.

12:55

the "adults" come out of them will surely do the fucking same just as soon as they're 20% or so by social mass

12:55

lol, finns?!

12:55

Bigger anger may be that they'll export rather than making corrugated kraft board for their arts and crafts time

12:55

spyked: the "broken" vdiff is possibly the issue with "exploding" because of using the initial version of keccak that stores each bit on a full octet-space?

12:55

BingoBoingo: why would finns, whose ~sole export is timber, build a paper mill in BingoBoingostan?!

12:56

cuz they know about paper mills

12:56

asciilifeform: Because they are good at paper and Uruguay has artificial forests to pulp

12:56

i suppose makes sense -- finn forests are furniture-grade

12:57

Uruguay's are firewood and pulp grade seeing as the forests in Uruguay with few exceptions were put in due to the lack of ground sourced hydrocarbons

12:57

btw another things asciilifeform's ancestors had in sovok that asciilifeform can't buy for any amt of money in gringolandia -- the famous 'finnish wall'(tm) -- y'know (or maybe not know?) this thing, cabinets, glass-doored bookshelves, that fill a wall

12:58

sure, had a whole room decked in that

12:58

library.

12:58

aha!! these

12:58

asciilifeform: know that but not by the name of "finnish wall" at all

12:58

as mircea_popescu really: it's called library or maybe "study room" lol

12:58

aha

12:58

diana_coman: possibly yours wasn't finnish , but locally made, ro has out of what

12:58

early ikea, had modules with fold-in table, dozen+ types otherwise

12:59

and what, ussr didn't have timber??

12:59

lego for adults. well, "adults", like the woman in http://trilema.com/2017/the-goodbye-girl/

13:00

mircea_popescu: 'ikea' is mega-bestselling here. but, as you might expect, they sell such things as they can get away with to the locals, who can't tell actual wood from glue-an'-dust

13:00

There used to be a place in my hometown that specialized in bespoke woodwork. Pipe organs, aircraft, and cabinetry. Now: https://archive.is/flYlo "Celebrate your special event in style when you choose Olde Wicks Factory Special Event Center in Highland, IL. Our venues are located in a 100-year-old building, formerly the Pipe Organ Company, and feature stunning stained glass, exposed brick, chandeliers, and beautiful outdoor space. With

13:00

three distinct spaces to choose from, your wedding venue, event space, or reception hall will be everything you envisioned and more."

13:01

diana_coman: sovok didn't have the magick proximity of the folx who know how to make furniture, and the old-growth timber, aha

13:01

BingoBoingo: well, and e.g. howard hughes built the 'spruice goose', world's largest flying tub, also. i was speaking of mass products.

13:03

I dunno that propper cabinetry can be a mass product rather than build to suit

13:04

can. or , rather -- could.

13:06

In the US where the primary use of wood is structural all sorts of complications emerge that you gotta count during the site survey. How much is the floor sunk and where. How far off of plumb are the walls, etc, etc

13:07

BingoBoingo: dafuq, floor sunk, walls off plumb?! i'm in the most starvation-grade hovel here and my floor is level, and corners are 90 degree

13:07

is 'off plumb' a midwest thing, or wat

13:07

Back at the Orange Despot the kitchen cabinet girls were the most specialized, because their job involved breaking the news to customers that they can't just sum the cost of the cabinets because their home's structure sucks.

13:08

meanwhile in vintage oddball spam via mircea_popescu's link.

13:08

asciilifeform: Termites and age. There is a certain point arount the 1910s where in the Midwest they simply stopped demolishing and kept adding.

13:09

hm i vaguely recall a thread where lobbes , i think, exclaimed 'i just put my foot through the fucking floor'

13:09

So when there was a fad like dormers to increase upstairs space in the mid 20th century, structure be damned 40 year old stick structure gets dormers.

13:10

BingoBoingo, was, in hruscheba world. standard spaces -> standard furniture

13:11

mircea_popescu: we weren't even in hruscheba, but in the 19th-c-converted-to-kommunalka . still 100% square walls.

13:11

aha.

13:11

mircea_popescu: Just entering into the record the US insanity where residential spaces are never standard.

13:12

ustermites build out of woodpaste not stonepaste tho

13:12

13:12

Logged on 2019-01-16 10:41:11 BingoBoingo: The only reason mod6's sill plate problem is exceptional is someone looked at his sill plate. In USistan most people don't know they have the sill plate problem because they never look.

13:13

*

asciilifeform when moved into current woodpaste, went in it when it was empty and put ball bearing on the floor. it didn't move.

13:13

nice for the swamp

13:13

structure is circa 1960 , i think.

13:16

more interestingly, on subj, when put in 'ikea' desk, found that it is impossible to keep ball bearing still on it, no matter how legs are adjusted. the 'wood' gives under weight of displays etc.

13:17

well, glued woodpaste

13:17

aha. mostly -- glue.

13:19

mircea_popescu: these here swamp dwellings are built sorta like those huts in vietnam. there's a concrete plinth, and ~1m columns, on these -- the floor.

13:19

makes sense

13:21

some of the nearby folx, have actual cellars, and these have pumps going at all times, sorta like bilge pump in ship. they gurgle out to the street periodically.

13:21

occasionally 1 of these pumps gives out, and then truck shows up to repair the drowned furnace etc. for megabux.

13:23

<asciilifeform> some of the nearby folx, have actual cellars, and these have pumps going at all times, sorta like bilge pump in ship. they gurgle out to the street periodically. << This is the midwestern standard. On a long enough timeline every structure with a basement needs one.

13:25

!q uptime

13:25

asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 21d 3h 1m

13:25

three weeks (tm)

13:25

And the archive link loaded https://archive.is/t5IiJ "Mientras marchaban, hicieron pintadas y rompieron vidrios. Entre los edificios pintados se encuentra el de la Dirección Nacional de Medio Ambiente (Dinama). En determinado momento de la manifestación, vieron a un policía que estaba en una garita cumpliendo tareas de 222 y lo golpearon. Cinco patrulleros llegaron hasta el lugar y la policía detuvo a cinco personas, pero una

13:25

fue liberada por orden de la Fiscalía."

13:25

hey diana_coman , didja ever manually test the reconnector? i -- did; but from lobbes's bot i have dark suspicion that it doesn't 100% work !!

13:26

( and btw it will only ever work as well as the fleanode serv list given in config. ideally oughta give several hand-picked ip )

13:28

BingoBoingo: is 'dinama' the same busybodies who tried to confiscate the replacement rk i sent you, for 'enviro pollution' ??

13:28

doh

13:33

unrelatedly, to round off this subthread : toshiba's 'TLP3905' in fact gives 7+v out from ~1.7v in, w/out oscillation. and is ~1 $ in qty. ( so 7 of'em, + e.g. LT3014B micropower linear regulator, would in fact give noiseless +40 for that diode. )

13:33

Logged on 2019-09-05 14:02:30 asciilifeform: thinking again today about this , and dug, found in fact that toshiba & coupla others offer ~single~ cell led<->photovoltaic pieces. and that could prolly connect these in series for the desired effect...

13:33

pretty interestingly, imho, no such application is discussed anywhere on the public net. almost as if no one ever gave half a shit .

13:33

asciilifeform: They are

13:34

asciilifeform: But they did yield once the magic words were found. Their building has one of those old timey attended elevators.

13:35

( 'TLP3905' only gives 12uA, and the regulator eats ~7uA as heat, but diode eats only picoamp or so as leakage current when reverse-biased )

13:38

i.e. this old puzzler, is thereby solved.

13:38

Logged on 2019-06-07 16:36:15 asciilifeform: ( the 1 annoying aspect of lysotronic fg as currently drawn, is that it gets the +45v bias voltage for the detector, from batteries, as asciilifeform does not know of a 'rng safe' method to generate it from +5 without oscillators )

13:44

before putting the subj back on the shelf , will also note, you dun actually need the lyso crystal if you have one of those radwaste 'coin' such as comes with old geigers -- can put right on the diode, it is entirely passable detector by itself above 100kEv or so .

13:45

however there are some ultra-fascist locales where can't easily buy those (current day ru comes to mind)

13:49

asciilifeform, re-read that comment, still nfi wtf it's about. possibly civillian being clever in spare time.

13:50

mircea_popescu: when i 1st read, thought 'substance abuse'

13:50

by now, esl ~= substance abuse kinda like "true communist" ~= trotstky glasses cca 1919

13:52

btw in re 'countries where can't buy test button for geiger' -- is ridiculously impotent ban; all you gotta do is to (carefully!) collect dust from crt monitor screen for coupla wks, and mix into a coupla grams of epoxy. po-210, 214, 218 . (exercise for reader : how did it get there?)

13:59

Meanwhile in capital controls on the other side of the river https://imgur.com/a/m0IX6HM ;tldr they have to go to the bank location with forms before incoming SWIFT wires post to their accounts

13:59

cuz god forbid any money makes it in ?

14:00

Pesification!

14:00

exact above discussed crab mentality, aka the true core of socialism. "We might be fucked in the ass, but at least we all are, equally so'

14:00

Well, god forbid any incoming money make it to the intended recipient. God forbiding any money make it in comes later

14:00

'los dolares se pesifican automaticamente' lol!!!

14:02

wtf does that even mean

14:02

There's also been a lot of butthurt from Argentines that the banks in Uruguay don't want to deal with them.

14:02

they steal it, basically ?

14:03

They steal it, yes. It's Argentina.

14:03

i suspect 'go ahead send in us $, we'll give your zimbabwebux instead'

14:03

keks.

14:03

Macri claimed "free market, Argentine banks finally safe" and then he Christina'd

~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~

15:17

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934123 <-- huh, whaddaya know, that was the problem! ty, diana_coman! unfortunately baking a patch isn't as simple as "vdiff a b", because sbcl comes with binaries included. :| will get to this when I'm back home

15:17

Logged on 2019-09-06 12:55:45 diana_coman: spyked: the "broken" vdiff is possibly the issue with "exploding" because of using the initial version of keccak that stores each bit on a full octet-space?

15:22

spyked: there is a newer version of keccak that works on octet-sized input but iirc it's not yet in vdiff, might help to get it in anyway (and then see if it still fails)

15:23

spyked: I mean this patch on eucrypt http://ossasepia.com/2019/03/15/eucrypt-chapter-16-bytestream-inputoutput-keccak/

15:26

lobbes, diana_coman , et al : logotron page updated to include lobbes's piece !

15:27

meanwhile , ACHTUNG trinque & ben_vulpes : >>> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-09-06#1000253

15:27

Logged on 2019-09-06 15:25:52 bvt: hello. seems that dns/http of p.bvulpes.com fell off -> deedbot can't produce OTPs

15:27

!!up bvt

15:27

deedbot

bvt voiced for 30 minutes.

15:28

bvt

ty. spyked, diana_coman : i fixed the problem with keccaking large files in vdiff here http://bvt-trace.net/2019/07/vdiff-vpatch-blockwise-keccaking/

15:30

bvt

i did not switch to the newer keccak code, as this would not solve underlying issue: vdiff would still crash with large files, just the limit would be 8x larger

15:34

bvt: that is true

15:42

achtung, panzers! about to upgrade 'reader', expect ~10s of down time.

15:42

*

asciilifeform done

15:48

oook , e.g. this and other quoted-search nao worx from www form. still gotta find out why not worx from bot cmd.

15:48

once i do, will make vpatch .

15:48

lobbes , mircea_popescu , et al ^

15:52

tho possibly still isn't exactly what we traditionally want. e.g. this , possibly oughta match only space-bounded strings when quoted term ?

15:52

i'ma see what mircea_popescu says when wakes up.

~ 5 hours 25 minutes ~

21:17

asciilifeform: yep, I'm going to do something about this right away.

21:17

looks like paster is currently up.

21:20

oh hm ossabot dis/re-connected (apparently properly)

21:21

looks like deedbot's staying attached so far too

21:21

trinque: i was curious specifically re reconnector, in light of lobbes earlier

21:21

in all honesty I think I misunderstood IRC, pinging from client was implemented, responding to pings entirely not.

21:22

trinque: interesting -- so it worked 'by accident' ??

21:22

probably the situation was that most times server doesn't ping if client has already.

21:22

as in, if the pong so happened to be in-phase with last ping -- stayed on

21:22

somethinglikethat

21:22

trinque: i suspect the latter rather

21:23

then there's some threadism weird that I solved by lopping off, where an exception wasn't handled properly and the thread died, rest remained.

21:23

aa.

21:23

I was by no means a lisp expert when I wrote the item, so in re: languages thread, I don't think it should reflect on CL

21:23

reflects on me!

21:23

trinque: i recall sewing 'pehbot' from it, found it a little overengineered (e.g. oopized)

21:24

not even properly CL oopized. java-headed oop

21:25

but you know, learning is a thing. at any rate, I'm probably going to muntz a tad further and vpatch this weekend.

21:25

various nonthreadly parts of deedbot's stack are still bulletproof, and have been for years

21:25

e.g. wallet

21:25

(the various problems with it have been related to replication between pg instances, and not CL)

21:26

in other CLisms, esthlos' vtron works great. it's a shame he left.

21:26

meanwhile in entirely unrelated bizarre : i obtained from a junk seller, what appears to be an orcish serial port card made at РФЯЦ – ВНИИТФ . the famous fortified city. at some pt will make photo-reportage re internals. oughta be interesting from 'how did folx who actually Gave A Shit build their irons?' archaeological pov.

21:27

cast iron brick, sealed with what passes for governmental seal in current-day orcistan, it alone oughta be interesting in teardown.

21:29

*

asciilifeform in fact bothered to see whether it sets off the geigers. almost surprised that it did not.

21:29

trinque: indeed a shame that he left. esthlos was a+++ fella while alive.

21:30

i wonder whether in fact died. left without any goodbye -- and his www is frozen exactly as it was

21:33

trinque: the vtron may be buggy tho. ( i haven't tried personally however )

21:33

Logged on 2019-09-05 14:41:05 shinohai: Anyway, this morning's experiments show that esthlos V won't press trb correctly. Barfs on asciilifeform's numbered bitcoin vpatches, eg:

21:34

eh "this morning's experiments" don't appear to be on a blog or otherwise documented

21:34

tru

21:34

as I say to folks all the time BAD BUG REPORT

21:34

*

trinque will be back in a sec after eating logs

21:34

i wish folx would get into the habit of fucking posting their barf

21:35

otherwise one's doing what, "expressing himself" ?

21:36

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1933983 << I think this kind of comparison is exactly what's needed.

21:36

Logged on 2019-09-06 01:18:37 lobbes: I think, in general, it makes sense for me to chew through the logotron "todo" list right now. I would eventually like to get a php version of the reader.py written for purposes of comparison.

21:36

I was just thinking of doing a few pasters, in light of the current paster not looking so good.

21:37

trinque: maybe 1st try raising ben_vulpes from his grave ?

21:37

or is he completely totalled ?

21:37

bv wishes not to be raised, and I shan't press the issue further.

21:37

sad.

21:37

RIP.

21:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933879 << the fact of the matter is that there are very few folks pulling revenue from inside the republic.

21:39

Logged on 2019-09-05 12:28:25 diana_coman: mircea_popescu: do you remember by any chance *where* did you say explicitly that one's less by precisely their investment/time outside the republic?

21:39

obviously a circumstance I'd like to see remedied.

21:41

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934003 << this is I think the subcurrent here.

21:41

Logged on 2019-09-06 04:29:58 spyked: hat's the usefulness in the end if I'm not gonna do anything productive with it?

21:42

on the subj of CL webtrons, the approach I've used is to have the CL proggie write static html (from another place, even) to a toilet static www server.

21:42

trinque: on ramdisk ?

21:43

trinque: how do you keep the serv from serving it up before 100% written ?

21:43

or, for that matter, how do you process e.g. PUT? or url params ?

21:44

on wot.deedbot.org I don't. it's a cut-of-the-knot approach

21:44

aa there it naturally worx

21:44

but for anyffin moar complicated (e.g. having a search box)

21:44

the IRC-for-input and www-for-output split was contemplated in an old thread. I still like it

21:46

this obv. worx in some applications. but i dun grasp how one would implement e.g. searchable log, this way

21:46

!s search terms

21:46

http://link/to/written/result.html

21:47

my !!key method works precisely this way, actually

21:47

trinque: and then you gotta delete these ? what if you want the resulting link to remain clickable ?

21:47

trinque: this worx because keys are relatively static.

21:48

if running out of disk accumulating text is a concern, could keep last n

21:48

i like that search links from arbitrarily long ago are clickable and human-readable.

21:49

if no-js is a rip along one perforation, no dynamic html is another

21:49

and that can search from www, without cluttering chans ( my bot doesn't do PM and i intend to keep it that way )

21:49

sure, I'm not trying to take it away

21:49

right. was explaining why i did not see it as a workable cut when wrote mine.

21:50

iirc at one point also a block explorer was contemplated that'd shit static html

21:50

plenty of apps needn't more

21:50

that'd be perfect case for statics imho

21:50

blox dun change.

21:51

heh, does this become an even better case for apache+php. "you only need it for search/comments/etc"

21:51

lobbes iirc went to make one, lessee what he comes back with

21:52

been thinking of another angle on the question. these items are residue left by *money* flowing through them

21:52

trinque: which items ?

21:52

the webshitlangs

21:52

a

21:53

trinque: imho the moar printolade flowed 'through' $proggy, tends to be the moar of a turd it is

21:53

Logged on 2019-08-14 10:55:56 asciilifeform: 'lamp' and the influx of deskilled labour connected with its rise , is imho exactly basketball tumour, and succinctly summarized by naggum

21:54

the republic can do one of two things. it can eat a language including interpreter/compiler, or it can take the "tear-arms-off-and-beat-them-with" approach.

21:54

( e.g. java, and microshit, prolly the very usg gosplan & central bank run on'em. still liquishit. )

21:54

being simplistic; there's plenty of hybrid to be had

21:56

seems like the arms with least resistance to being torn off usefully are the ones with shortest dependency chain.

21:56

trinque: i went to look at what is php made from ( given all the prodding by mircea_popescu ) and seems to weigh at least as much as the python toolchain

21:56

I'm not arguing for php, feeling around for method

21:56

it's forth for all we know right now

21:56

well i was genuinely curious. for all i knew, lighter

21:59

the existence of mod_php isn't much of an argument either. there's mod_everything

21:59

trinque: for overall smallest mass of system + all needed for $problem ? afaik forth in fact is the unchallenged champ, wherever was historically tried.

22:00

i'm not about to ask folx to learn it tho ( asciilifeform in fact quite fond of forth, and used extensively. but i also recognize that to most people utterly 'martian' )

22:01

chuck moor had , famously , complete vlsi production plant in iirc 3k loc of forth .

22:01

complete w/ electromagnetic models etc

22:02

forth also has the afaik unique attribute where standing up a forth on bare iron is ~weekend's work for an adept

22:02

so 'bootstrap problem' evaporates.

22:02

'peh' is -- arguably -- a (very fascist) forth .

22:03

( moor, if he were in his grave, would be spinning like propeller )

22:03

lol

22:05

on e.g. x86, a forth complete enuff that you could comfortably live the rest of your life in it, weighs about 1kB.

22:05

what's next there? how far is it from being bolted to a network socket of some kind?

22:05

trinque: trivial if you know the magick inits for $nic.

22:05

I mean peh specifically

22:05

ugh

22:06

not asking "why haven't you given me x", just wondering.

22:06

rly you'd want to burn e.g. 4096bits when looping over a 1byte variable ?

22:06

and wait ~1s to multiply 1x1 ?

22:07

( or even 0x0 )

22:07

perhaps to establish session

22:07

iirc mircea_popescu called this 'use 50cal rifle as fishing pole'

22:08

tho imho in this case it is moar like using battalion howitzer as fishing pole.

22:09

trinque: an 'iron peh', where the ALU is actually e.g. 4096b-wide -- may be workable as general-purpose comp.

22:09

but on x86 ?

22:09

what's the iron peh cost

22:09

even as prosthetic, not whole comp

22:09

trinque: elaborate re 'as prosthetic' ?

22:10

i can maybe answer the q, if it is made very, very concrete.

22:11

can an item be built that functions at a network boundary quickly

22:12

( http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934333 is obv. exaggeration, if anyone doesn't grasp. but yer still talking about a 1ms op where normally x86 gives 1ns )

22:12

Logged on 2019-09-06 22:06:40 asciilifeform: and wait ~1s to multiply 1x1 ?

22:12

i.e. inside I have w/e, naked women, dancing bears, there's a membrane at the edge of my lair run by the ??? in question

22:13

trinque: so, actual honest iron ? 1-2mil transistors. i.e. coupla 100k $ for 1st tray, and afterwards a few cents ea. if baked in qty. as you might expect.

22:13

how fast is the iron?

22:15

this figure for e.g. 65nm . i.e. ~gz or so, realistically.

22:15

so that's the 1ns?

22:16

aha. tho presently i doubt that it's physically possible to make a 4096x4096b multiplier converge in <1ns

22:16

their physical size is ~cube of the bitness , and speed of light is finite.

22:17

so if you'll permit a dunce, imagine a device with a trusted and untrusted interface.

22:18

untrusted interface is w/e nic, running mystery meat, who cares

22:18

middle is your encrypter/decrypter.

22:18

trusted interface shits decrypted material, descripters of who said, and what was said. eats outbound material.

22:18

iirc we had thread about this.

22:19

this cuts the world enough to be useful, unless I'm stupid

22:19

'iron gossipd'.

22:19

entirely

22:19

i proposed it in '16 as a 'gateway' into gossipnet. ( eats packets at line rate, emits from 2nd nic hole the ones that were found edible. )

22:20

that thing has a market. everyone knows tls is a lie.

22:20

even them.

22:21

i'm inclined to agree. but possibly asciilifeform is that last one who oughta talk about 'what has market', asciilifeform also thought FG had mega-market waiting.

22:22

*the last one

22:22

I wouldn't propose building the thing without first identifying the market.

22:24

the republic can't live correctly and expect folks to line up. the world's too far gone. money has to whip around in republic-shaped loops long enough to retrain enough human heads.

22:24

trinque: it would indeed 'cut world', in the sense that gives you a gossiptronic net fully layered over the traditional one. and with dozen+ entrance boxen, suddenly impossible to effectively ddos anything on the inner (i.e. what comes out of the 2nd plug) world.

22:24

I have been enamored of this idea since the first mircea_popescu and asciilifeform threads on same.

22:25

imho it's the obv. Right Thing.

22:26

if you actually want to verify 4096bit rsa packets at line rate, tho, yer stuck baking silicon.

22:27

on ordinary x86 -- state-of-art today is bvt's inline asm where 0.25s per 4096bit modexp .

22:28

the slow prototype'd still be useful as that, no?

22:28

trinque: the slow prototype is what asciilifeform (is slowly getting back nao!) to working on .

22:29

if there is any other mundanity in the way feel free to throw it at me.

22:29

but important to remember that yer nic can still eat 512b shitograms roughly 10,000x faster than you can modexp on'em . even w/ bvt's asmisms.

22:30

you can parallelize the work, but the amt of effective diff it makes , is relatively small when compared to the absolute size of the above shortfall.

22:30

call that a positive, less risk of prototype standing up and running away from your desk

22:31

lol

22:31

i'ma get it to the point where does the job orig. promised. but 'unsinkable network battleship' will have to wait for actual irons , as i understand .

22:33

a gb nic can theoretically swallow 2**18 512b packets / sec .

22:34

maybe at that point a couple of us can muster a couple 100k to see it baked

22:34

I'd just want to know who we're selling to. ourselves isn't enough

22:35

i certainly wouldn't invite anyone to pay to build such space station until thoroughly familiar with working example 'in soft'

22:36

( btw , for thread-completeness -- you need 4096 modexp in < 3.8 ~microsecond~ to eat GB at line-rate. )

22:37

so potentially could go for bigger process than 65nm?

22:37

aaand this is counting whole interval, in which not only rsa but e.g. keccak padding calc. gotta happen.

22:38

trinque: opposite.

22:38

entirely possib. that it is only feasible in 35nm or better.

22:38

this is difficult to calculate 'on napkin' w/out an actual complete iron design, however.

22:39

1 of the reasons why iron is such a bitch is that ~very~ small differences in logical design can give gigantic diff in performance.

22:40

whole thread nearly borders on sin, given as almost anyffin i say on the subj is likely to be catastrophically wrong.

22:40

i.e. even answering the feasibility q is likely to be quite expensive.

22:40

I'm just glad to hear it's still on teh conveyor

22:41

trinque: it is. tho i lost more than month (not counting the entirely pointless expedition of 'M', then could say lost 3mo ! )

22:42

seems like erry summer asciilifeform does a jet-powered flight into brick wall. last time it was the cr50 thing.

22:43

heh, this place needs a cartoonist so bad

22:44

after http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934226 is put to rest, i'ma leave the logger alone, unless someone finds catastrophic problem .

22:44

Logged on 2019-09-06 15:52:02 asciilifeform: tho possibly still isn't exactly what we traditionally want. e.g. this , possibly oughta match only space-bounded strings when quoted term ?

22:44

would really like to get back to conveyor .

22:46

god, unrelatedly, it suddenly becomes clear that when I moved deedbot to singapore, I increased his ping.

22:47

ping to trinque's current chair ?

22:47