Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-02-03 | 2019-02-05 → ↓
00:43 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo anthropologist ; disservice.
~ 56 minutes ~
01:40 BingoBoingo ty, fxd
~ 6 hours 9 minutes ~
07:49 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892214 <-- o hey, ty!
07:49 a111 Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: spyked nice article! it might even end up the current linkpoint for the various http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-25#1889920 lost souls, "here, we know the future" item.
07:52 spyked re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892216 , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892221 : a) do you mean the alt "title=..." text? I'll add it to the list of things to look into; b) pingback delivery is for now a manual process. will also have to add automation to thetarpit feature list
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07:52 a111 Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: but i must protest re your blogotron that a) whay do footnote anchors not load the footnote in a hoover overlay! and b) whay does it send no pingbacks ? (or does it, did trilema eat them ?)
07:52 a111 Logged on 2019-02-03 22:33 diana_coman: spyked, fwiw I did not get the pingback from your blog either
07:54 spyked more generally: although I've been tempted to switch to mp-wp, I'm still hoping to grow the current thetarpit code base into a minimal cl-based mp-wp-like blogotron. I'ma also put a genesis on the todo list.
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07:56 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892217 <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org
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07:56 a111 Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: an' also, what writings predating no longer online you mean ?
~ 3 hours 7 minutes ~
11:03 * asciilifeform back inbiz
11:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892238 << possibly oughta include the tidbit re arithmetical part of ffa being 100% built (can gen rsa primez nao, can do so easily after ch17, where looping is introduced)
11:04 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 03:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anything we want ot include in this month's s.nsa report ?
11:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: also can include the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-30#1890719 lul, if there's space.
11:05 a111 Logged on 2019-01-30 16:46 asciilifeform: diana_coman: '0.61 seconds per iteration of M-R' is also lulzy , in context of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-24#1889742
11:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892248 << 1st i hear of the name, seems to be at least coupla diff people. tho dug up a https://archive.is/WnZJY , which reads almost trilema-like...
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11:12 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 12:56 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892217 <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org
11:21 asciilifeform https://archive.is/7Pvov << moar from same fossilized www. whether in fact ancient mircea_popescu engl. practice or not, it's pretty good imho.
11:22 asciilifeform ( ftr nuffin asciilifeform wrote in that period is imho worth the electrons. the only own item i even bothered pickling & preserving from that time, is http://www.loper-os.org/vintage/parallelsid/parasid.html )
11:24 * asciilifeform took 1 single 'day off' and nao buried in tall pile of various chores. will slowly eat log buffer later today.
11:35 spyked asciilifeform, also related to "zeno" http://trilema.com/2009/am-scris-o-carte/
11:35 asciilifeform spyked: i have that b00k, and liked
11:35 mircea_popescu spyked that's what i mean. it\s very convenient when reading short footnotes
11:37 asciilifeform 'To sane humans, such a character is bewildering, but let's not forget an important piece of the puzzle. Jim Blow isn't there for sane humans. He's there for a very specific category of defective human minds. They call themselves "hackers" or something like that, and the rest of the world calls them nerds. ' << a++ imho
11:38 mircea_popescu incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete gutenberg.org copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627828 there's no way they'll stay online all that long.
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11:38 a111 Logged on 2017-03-15 23:50 mircea_popescu: which incidentally - has been read TODAY by more people than read ALL of marcel proust's works since the making of gutenberg.org
11:39 mircea_popescu should prolly also salvage http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ but that's going to be more work than a straight download & strip headers job.
11:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: apparently gutenberg is rsync'able ( https://archive.is/PWeNA ) , tho i haven't tried
11:40 mircea_popescu aha. not much work.
11:40 mircea_popescu totally must-be-done tho, lest the BingoBoingo 's of the future end up missing out on their soulfood.
11:40 asciilifeform would suck to have it end up like 'dejanews' et al.
11:41 mircea_popescu there's no doubt in my mind it will.
11:41 mircea_popescu never take pantsuit useful sites for granted ; they're always useful momentarily and coincidentally, because pantsuit is always more pantsuit than anything else, and the only thing pantsuit is is stupid, thus therefore useless and annoying.
11:41 asciilifeform http://flibusta.is is asciilifeform's routine 'gutenberg', been a while since i looked at the actual one
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11:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform can't be helped, you write in english.
11:42 asciilifeform yea won't dispute that oughta back up the shakespear etc
11:43 asciilifeform cuz it's headed to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=752#selection-99.0-217.84 .
11:43 mircea_popescu shakespeare isn't even the major problem ; the major problem are the english greats pantsuit ~deliberately~ ain't talking about, because very much http://trilema.com/2014/in-which-you-become-grain/ sorta reasons
11:44 asciilifeform verily.
11:44 mircea_popescu there's ALWAYS a denied middle in everything pantsuit does. shakespeare, it perceives it has no choice but to talk about, because a) "too big to fail" and b) whatever, "we'll '''antibody it away anyway".
11:44 mircea_popescu but lardner, who ever talked of the most important american writer in the us ? and WHY NOT ?
11:45 mircea_popescu very much exactly http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-311.0-311.469 reasons, yes ?
11:45 asciilifeform yarvin's original claim to fame (of a kind) was a short and abortive attempt at this, he dug up a buncha confederate/slavery/etc texts and mirrored/commented
11:46 mircea_popescu "we'd much rather not all be jack keefe, and you know what ? if we never ever mention it it's just as good as if we actually weren't. also, don't say king coon, nigger or cripple."
11:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform problem being, those are shockingly fucking stupid.
11:46 mircea_popescu but yes, if one was aiming to alt-pantsuit jirinovski status, that's the right play.
11:46 asciilifeform good % was ( i admit, did not eat the whole collection, was snoar )
11:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892244 << manual how ? i have a script somewhere doing it for trilema, want me to dig it out ?
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11:48 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 12:52 spyked: re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892216 , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892221 : a) do you mean the alt "title=..." text? I'll add it to the list of things to look into; b) pingback delivery is for now a manual process. will also have to add automation to thetarpit feature list
11:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892247 << see how comms trip you up ? had you ~said~ this much i'd have said very different things, because i entirely don't see the problem with a cl blogotron.
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11:49 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 12:54 spyked: more generally: although I've been tempted to switch to mp-wp, I'm still hoping to grow the current thetarpit code base into a minimal cl-based mp-wp-like blogotron. I'ma also put a genesis on the todo list.
11:50 * asciilifeform has at various times attempted cl blogotron, but broke teeth on acct of insufficient wwwfu. if spyked decides to genesis his, would seriously consider converting
11:51 asciilifeform mp-wp seems to work great , but asciilifeform hobbles when tryin' to modify it, php feels inescapably like cobol when i work with it
11:53 mircea_popescu you will be nonplussed to hear that my only mental model for php is this "lisp" thing they had for "especially bright kids to learn how to computer" bla bla back when i was a teen.
11:53 mircea_popescu i dunno why specifically it was called lisp, but it was stupid and verbose and i fucking hated it.
11:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there's 3 generations of maffs students to whom 'lisp' means precisely this
11:53 mircea_popescu the annoying part is, i hated it so much i don't even have any distinct memory sufficient to identify wtf it even was.
11:54 asciilifeform most victims of this type of 'education' carry only 1 or 2 nervous ticks, e.g. paren-phobia , into adulthood
11:54 asciilifeform ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=295 oblig )
11:54 mircea_popescu it didn't even have paranthesises!
11:54 mircea_popescu besides, derive was half-parens by weight, or more, and i liked derive fine.
11:54 asciilifeform neither did mccarthy's orig lisp btw
11:55 * asciilifeform ~still uses~ 'derive' on occasion.
11:55 mircea_popescu i dunno what it was, but the only fucking time i threatened a wanna-be teacher with shooting in my life. dork was derealized enough to think i was kidding.
11:55 * asciilifeform also has a ~decade-long on&off proj to reverse the thing properly. but not much movement on that front since tuning into tmsr.
11:56 asciilifeform 'derive' actually contains an ultra-optimised, hand-asmed msdos lisp.
11:57 mircea_popescu you know asciilifeform ... just cutting out the asm lisp compiler and putting it on loper may be a huge boon.
11:57 asciilifeform hmm do i not have it mirrored ?
11:57 asciilifeform gotta fix this, brb
11:59 mircea_popescu im sure eg spyked would love ot give it a gander -- maybe he thereby learns asm and becomes as smart as ave1 for one, and maybe it helps his adalisp for the other.
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11:59 asciilifeform http://loper-os.org/pub/mu/DERIVE.EXE , http://loper-os.org/pub/mu/mulisp.com << the latter is 'mulisp-87', there is also a '-90' that i was never able to track down.
12:00 mircea_popescu i thought it was 86.
12:01 asciilifeform have that 1 somewhere also, but will have to be pulled from optical disk if someone wants it specifically
12:01 mircea_popescu so there's actually 3 ? ha.
12:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: sadly 'mu' aint all that helpful for writing a hand-carved lisp -- it's in 16bit asm and has the segmentation bullshit intimately baked into it
12:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: at least 4, there was a '-83' also
12:01 asciilifeform ( this one also existed for cp/m and z80 )
12:02 mircea_popescu was the 90s thing that mulisp-xt or w/e, on the palm ?
12:02 asciilifeform i dunno re palm, but there was (and remains sold!) a 68k thing that runs on the ti calculator
12:03 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-13#1272527 << subj
12:03 a111 Logged on 2015-09-13 08:26 BingoBoingo: Oh, TI-92 arrived yesterday. Much larger than I imagined
12:03 mircea_popescu hp made this tiny, "can't decide if laptop or pocket calculartor" item\
12:03 mircea_popescu and the derive people announced it has a lisp also.
12:03 BingoBoingo AHA
12:03 asciilifeform hp-200lx
12:03 asciilifeform i have 1
12:03 asciilifeform it's an ordinary dos box, with the dos in rom
12:03 mircea_popescu https://www.cbronline.com/news/soft_warehouse_says_mulisp_90_is_up_on_h_ps_95lx_palmtop/ <<
12:03 asciilifeform runs 'derive' just fine if you write it to the sram
12:03 asciilifeform 95lx was the 1st model of same
12:04 mircea_popescu so is this the mulisp 90 then ?
12:04 asciilifeform i haven't yet encountered a version with 'derive' in the rom out of the box, but entirely possib that they sold one
12:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the ver of derive.exe that i have, has the runtime from -87 baked in
12:04 asciilifeform i vaguely recall seeing one somewhere with a '-90', but possibly memory fails me or i dreamed it.
12:05 mircea_popescu hm.
12:05 asciilifeform (aficionados - plox to write in if find this)
12:05 mircea_popescu "DERMATOL está programado en muLISP-90 Version 7.00 (03/06/91) para IBM . PC MS-DOS de Soft Warehouse, Inc. Las funciones están definidas en base a la estructura y algoritmo de la red neuronal ." << no, item evidently DID exist.
12:05 asciilifeform quite interesting item, btw, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606321
12:05 a111 Logged on 2017-01-24 01:51 asciilifeform: i'll point out that mulisp (47kB) included bignum (again, in asm)
12:06 asciilifeform i'ma de-pdfize the 1 and only piece of archaeology known to have been written on subj , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-07#1265693 , brb
12:06 a111 Logged on 2015-09-07 21:39 ascii_field: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel http://www.sigsam.org/bulletin/articles/178/stoutemyer.pdf << some actual implementation details re: 'derive' & 'mulisp'
12:07 asciilifeform (orig link , unsurprisingly, dead )
12:07 mircea_popescu you know ?
12:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892248 << wtf is a walterschen.de ?
12:10 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 12:56 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892217 <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org
12:11 mircea_popescu https://web.archive.org/web/*/zenofeller << /me went an' searched
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12:11 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/stoutemyer/index.html << for the l0gz, and for all 'derive' aficionados.
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12:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform re report, ima put in the amateurships yea
12:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: apparently i looked for '90' prior, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606671 , never found.
12:14 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 17:57 asciilifeform: unrelatedly, if phf or anybody else has a copy of mulisp-90, plz to post.
12:14 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892255 << and besides, has book references.
12:14 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 16:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892248 << 1st i hear of the name, seems to be at least coupla diff people. tho dug up a https://archive.is/WnZJY , which reads almost trilema-like...
12:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you think $item is at level of 'amateurship', dun put in
12:15 mircea_popescu no no not what i meant
12:16 mircea_popescu the amateurship ~lulz~, ie, look what we discovered and how usgtards ended up renamed.
12:16 asciilifeform aa a.
12:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ftr i quite like the ancient pre-trilema, if you still have whole thing somewhere would be pretty great to read it off proper www, rather than usg's archive
12:18 hanbot spyked: (snip) <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org << oh sweet, i'ma happily wade knee-deep in these again awhile.
12:18 mircea_popescu lmao. back when hanbot was chitlins and things ?
12:18 hanbot practically miniature
12:18 asciilifeform back when asciilifeform was spending his days putting robot arm through glass doors etc
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12:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it grew to at some point include a forum also, and i put a buncha cr pics from first trip there, which was teh ~only reason i considered over the years digging up archives, but was too lazy.
12:19 asciilifeform i dun imagine the colibri & ocelots changed much since then
12:19 mircea_popescu imagine you, they have!
12:19 mircea_popescu there's this place we visited then, that can not be found now anymore.
12:19 mircea_popescu though perhaps there's a lead.
12:19 asciilifeform a in ~that~ way , heh
12:21 mircea_popescu though in fairness, current crop entirely unsurpassed. much better camera, much better operator, mo' money...
12:21 mircea_popescu kinda goes for the whole thing, tbh.
12:22 asciilifeform perhaps swallowed by later material, but imho still pretty great read.
12:23 asciilifeform i like the formatting also.
12:23 asciilifeform very al-schwartz-ian formatting.
12:24 mircea_popescu actually rather evident http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-04#1839388 calc.
12:24 a111 Logged on 2018-08-04 13:57 mircea_popescu: exactly the same substance as the "artwork" basis of http://maddox.xmission.com/irule_.html
12:24 asciilifeform to round off stoutemyer item , http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kXgko/?raw=true << ocr txt from same.
12:25 asciilifeform 'Implementing muLisp for the Intel 8086 was more challenging because the 1-megabyte address space was segmented into 64-kilobyte segments. The MS-DOS operating system reserved 360 kilobytes of that address space for its purposes, leaving 640 kilobytes for implementing and using muLisp. Awkward segmented architecture is becoming less common as memory costs decline. However, techniques for overcoming the limitations of short pointers a
12:25 asciilifeform re still relevant for implementing linked programs and data compactly....'
12:25 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892055 << entirely sensible to rerun, sounds good.
12:25 a111 Logged on 2019-02-03 17:24 diana_coman: trinque, it's possibly best to run your latest script and then hand over everything you need, fresh and clear? not a big issue otherwise to rummage and pack that dir but I don't even recall if I did not touch it further after that point when I sent the genesis patch so I'd rather not introduce artefacts
12:28 hanbot http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892053 << there's an hp clunker willing to guineapig, but it's an i686, will that do?
12:28 a111 Logged on 2019-02-03 17:20 mircea_popescu: hanbot pick a laptop, bake the man's cuntoo. (principal issue, that gentoo->cuntoo "bridge", see if his sig matches).
12:29 mircea_popescu can't see why not.
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12:30 hanbot kk. scheduled for tomorrow evening.
12:33 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/02/pantsuit-government-in-virginia-getting-boiled-by-national-pantsuits-over-having-once-been-young/ << Qntra -- Pantsuit Government In Virginia Getting Boiled By National Pantsuits Over Having Once Been Young
~ 26 minutes ~
12:59 * asciilifeform was aboutta say 'hah, i threw out my last i686' but turns out nope, here's 1 runnin' still
~ 1 hours 23 minutes ~
14:22 asciilifeform re ancient-mircea_popescu thrd : https://archive.is/pMyw2 << also pretty interesting.
14:24 feedbot http://bimbo.club/2019/02/in-memoriam-giuseppe/ << Bimbo.Club -- In memoriam Giuseppe
~ 31 minutes ~
14:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not like the femstate's bankruptcy were discovered last tuesday.
14:57 mircea_popescu http://www.notmilk.com/ however no longer in business, apparently.
14:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: not noose, but i simply like the flavour. just read 'guide to psychopathic rape', for instance, a+++
15:00 mircea_popescu i guess ima put this in the report, "lost cto to binge reading ancient html site"
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15:00 asciilifeform lol
15:01 asciilifeform i managed to fit it into timeslot of a meat chore, ftr!111
15:01 mircea_popescu win-win as they say.
15:01 asciilifeform yea tending heathens with headset, meanwhile primordial trilema..
15:02 mircea_popescu must actually be a pretty grand experience.
15:02 asciilifeform it is, highly a++ recc'd to anybody who still finds himself tending heathens
15:04 asciilifeform in other lulz, swampistan went from -16 to +16 c in <day .
15:04 mircea_popescu global warming.
15:04 asciilifeform global worming.
15:04 mircea_popescu btw, how's global warming been faring with the mini freeze they got last week ?
15:05 asciilifeform iirc it got renamed to 'climate instability', nao airtight
15:05 mircea_popescu keks.
15:05 mircea_popescu CRUSADE AGAINST BROWNIAN MOTION!!!!
15:05 mircea_popescu because ultimately... leads to instability.
15:06 mircea_popescu if everything were painted-on fixed, even women could be engineers. and immigrants.
15:06 asciilifeform they oughta try mars, i hear pretty stable.
15:14 mircea_popescu i must say, it's pretty weird to read 13year old stuff and not find something to object to.
~ 21 minutes ~
15:35 * asciilifeform also liked https://archive.is/B9jL1 , with the heat engine.
15:36 asciilifeform 'They're sucking the blood out of the fiction, at 3$ an hour, and there wasn't enough fiction to go around to begin with. And since you are paying today for tomorrow's fiction, darn straight you want your rightful slice of it. '
15:45 mircea_popescu not even that bad, huh.
15:46 mircea_popescu "You will lose the right to bear arms, not because they hate you, but because you aren't worth it, and you will lose the right to speak freely, not because they're affraid of it, but because you wouldn't know what to do with it if you had it. "
15:46 mircea_popescu and all that.
15:46 asciilifeform !#s debeaking
15:46 a111 6 results for "debeaking", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=debeaking
15:47 asciilifeform ^ see also.
15:47 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu had these ultra-compact pieces that i suspect would penetrate the biofilm of all sortsa thick heathens today, if they were still on the main pg
15:48 mircea_popescu feel free to quote it at them, why not.
15:48 asciilifeform sad thing is that most of'em never got snapshotted.
15:48 asciilifeform i found a handful of random.
15:48 mircea_popescu how do you figure ?
15:49 asciilifeform most of the a.org links lead to null
15:49 mircea_popescu hm
16:00 mircea_popescu and then if i were to leak eg http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Se2eN/?raw=true ie, historical forum bits of travels ~as thery happened~ alf's gonna also want that and so on.
16:01 asciilifeform i'ma deliberately not eat moar until i catch up with chores this wk, but otherwise yes
16:02 mircea_popescu and then when he gets to romanian he's gonna want fain backups, and conceivably, wtf was http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22dtng%22 and also, that one time when i sat down to read my collection of pif, what was in those large year-bound things, and could i perhaps dig up the "casino" roulette thing i made by hand to get all the other kids's turbo chewing gum "surprise" dollars, dms an' turk lyrasi
16:03 mircea_popescu and so on. wtf, i can't dedicate my life to documenting my past life because then who's gonna produce the future.
16:03 asciilifeform i'ma eat these if/when mircea_popescu bothers to dig'em up.
16:04 mircea_popescu well, let's put it this way : no later than at the chestnut tree cafe i shall.
16:04 asciilifeform lolk
16:07 hanbot inb4 this becomes the "whisperers" thread all over again
16:07 asciilifeform lol
16:08 asciilifeform i dun presume that errybody oughta burn cycles to post erry possible oldies. but mircea_popescu's i simply happen to like.
16:12 mircea_popescu hahaha there's some of that isn't there.
16:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes but what if there's some secret sauce in there!
16:13 asciilifeform presumably not so seekrit that it being perma-hosted by usg loc blows it
16:13 asciilifeform but whichever, post, or not, as feel like, how else.
16:13 * asciilifeform bbl,meat
~ 30 minutes ~
16:43 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892287 <-- yes pl0x, it would be much help. my biggest issue atm is having to do manual greps after <link rel="pingback" href="..." />, haven't been able yet to get something reliable that doesn't require parsing html
16:43 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 16:48 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892244 << manual how ? i have a script somewhere doing it for trilema, want me to dig it out ?
16:44 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892289 <-- post updated with some more context re. lisp blogotron http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-177.0-179.1 the scope might still prolly not be 100% clear, it seems to require a separate post
16:44 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 16:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892247 << see how comms trip you up ? had you ~said~ this much i'd have said very different things, because i entirely don't see the problem with a cl blogotron.
16:46 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892345 <-- neato! I'll give this a reread myself
16:46 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 17:11 mircea_popescu: https://web.archive.org/web/*/zenofeller << /me went an' searched
16:48 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892309 <-- funfact: /me reads plenty of asm on his saecular assignments, mostly to maintain & debug shit software stacks that crash in weird ways. haven't written any asm in a while tho, and dos asm especially has been a challenge last time I looked at it
16:48 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 16:59 mircea_popescu: im sure eg spyked would love ot give it a gander -- maybe he thereby learns asm and becomes as smart as ave1 for one, and maybe it helps his adalisp for the other.
16:48 * spyked bbl, sleep
16:49 mircea_popescu spyked http://trilema.com/2015/how-to-fix-your-local-trackbacks/ << turns out i already had.
↖
~ 22 minutes ~
17:12 mircea_popescu "most people, when faced with a problem, will not investigate the cause of the problem, but will instead want to solve it because the problem is actually in the way of something more important than figuring out why something suddenly got in their way out of nowhere. if you are a programmer, you may reach for perl at this point, and perl can remove your problem. happy, you go on, but find another problem blocking your way, r
↖
17:12 mircea_popescu equiring more perl -- the perl programmer who veers off the road into the forest will get out of his car and cut down each and every tree that blocks his progress, then drive a few meters and repeat the whole process. whether he gets where he wanted to go or not is immaterial -- a perl programmer will happily keep moving forward and look busy. getting a perl programmer back on the road is a managerial responsibility, and it
↖
17:12 mircea_popescu can be very hard: the perl programmer is very good at solving his own problems and assure you that he's on the right track -- he looks like any other programmer who is stuck, and this happens to all of us, but the perl programmer is very different in one crucial capacity: the tool is causing the problems, and unlike other programmers who discover the cause of the problem sooner or later and try something else, perl is reward
17:12 mircea_popescu ing the programmer with a very strong sense of control and accomplishment that a perl programmer does _not_ try something else."
17:12 mircea_popescu this is remarkably fucking true about, you've guessed it, ~social media~.
17:13 mircea_popescu much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
↖ ↖ ↖
17:19 mircea_popescu hence,
17:19 mircea_popescu "a person's behavior is shaped by the rewards and the punishment he has received while not thinking about his own actions. few people habitually engage in the introspection necessary to break out of this "social programming" or decide to ignore the signals that other people send them, so this is a powerful mechanism for programming the unthinking masses. rewarding idiotic behavior and punishing smart behavior effectively bra
17:19 mircea_popescu inwashes people, destroying their value systems and their trust in their own understanding and appreciation of the world they live in, but if you're very good at it, you can create a new world for them in which all of this makes sense.
17:19 mircea_popescu "
17:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892453 << today 'mythical', but in '98 or when it was he wrote , was in fact troo specifically starring perl. (today other crapola, and moar fragmented so not immediately pointable to as 'hey, perl' )
17:34 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 22:13 mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
17:34 mircea_popescu myeah.
17:37 * asciilifeform at one pt actually ~was~ 1 of the people naggum wrote about, who 'reached for perl like goebbels for pistol when heard word 'culture'' . then one day realized what it was doing to his brain and ~quit~ , like BingoBoingo quit drink, and never touched since
17:38 asciilifeform i dunno whether organism ever fully recovers from perl. but been 'dry' for decade nao...
17:42 mircea_popescu is perl here distinct from bash ?
17:42 asciilifeform only in same way as whiskey distinct from beer
17:42 asciilifeform 'get to rock bottom' faster.
17:43 asciilifeform arguably there was 'perlism' prior to perl, just as there was surely alcoholism prior to cheap gin.
17:43 asciilifeform but quite diff scale.
17:44 mircea_popescu except i don't drink beer, but drink spirits. not whiskey, nor any other stoolbrandy, but nevertheless.
17:44 asciilifeform rright but you dun do it as central focus of all life.
17:44 mircea_popescu what about http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-29#1890575 ?
17:44 a111 Logged on 2019-01-29 17:34 asciilifeform: comments ( grep -P '^\s*--' ) turn out to be 1835 ln in libffa and 390 in ffacalc.
17:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i also drink spirits, note.
17:44 asciilifeform occasionally.
17:45 asciilifeform and bash.
17:45 mircea_popescu this "structured data" argument is good enough in the general, but consider what it'd have cost you to actually have all that pre-structured, rather than bash-prototype
17:45 asciilifeform i even own a vise-grip.
17:45 asciilifeform 'the wrong tool for erry job'(tm)(r)
17:45 mircea_popescu "i can't do any ffa work because i'm working on a manner in which to do it that wouldn't produce the idle inquiry of loc 6 months in"
17:45 asciilifeform but erry so often, you gotta.
17:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's the perfect tool for ONE job, as my recent header illustrates.
17:45 mircea_popescu it will pinch girly skin most painfully.
17:46 asciilifeform also unlike e.g. rms, asciilifeform even washes, even tho washing dun even directly bake any ffa...
17:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in asciilifeform's planet vise-grip is used for exactly 1 thing ( when working on ancient auto engine, to clamp the old dead hood lift piston in place... )
17:47 asciilifeform i suspect errybody else also has 'that 1 use..'
17:47 mircea_popescu no wonder it sunk.
17:47 mircea_popescu im telling you, it's for augmented pinching
17:48 asciilifeform i thought that's what haemostat is for!111
17:48 asciilifeform ( dun errybody own bag of classic surgical toolz ?? )
17:49 mircea_popescu no way, you're liable to tear skin with that thing.
17:49 mircea_popescu vise grip, nice square cm flat surfaces.
17:50 asciilifeform you dun have those rubber-coated haemostats ?
17:50 asciilifeform ( they come in 9000 variant )
17:58 asciilifeform hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
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17:59 asciilifeform it was 'put to yourself the question' but in ro iirc
17:59 asciilifeform about ideal objects
18:01 asciilifeform was in the http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-02#1260148 flavour
18:01 a111 Logged on 2015-09-02 22:09 mircea_popescu: there is clearly a problem here. ideal objects (such as software) are not comensurate with physical objects. this attempt to "engineer programs like screws" was a reasonable first hack at the novel an dunexpected problem,
18:02 asciilifeform grr can't find in o(1). but the unifying thread is, when tools of the 'soft' variety appears, all sortsa folx, not even necessarily stupid, became afflicted with the erroneous notion that they have '0 cost' because coad dun have mass and can be cribbed gratis
18:03 asciilifeform very rarely anyone goes 'perl' with actual physical bulldozer as in naggum's gedanken exp because actual bulldozer costs actual dough, and eats fuel which ditto, and produces immediately palpable mess
18:03 asciilifeform but with imaginary bulldozer, many succumbed to 'hey what could it cost'
18:05 asciilifeform ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480723 , http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-10#866949 , elsewhere )
18:05 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:34 asciilifeform: imagine if programmers actually had to answer for their pollutants.
18:05 a111 Logged on 2014-10-10 00:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 10k line/250kb limit. if you overrun it you get shot << chuck moore (of 'forth' fame) seems kinda in favour of this. as am i. a kind of 'environmentalism' i've been advocating for many years (intellectual pollution doesn't blacken mere lungs. it makes everybody - stupider. measurably.)
18:07 diana_coman trinque, I'll add it to the list; what should I pack and send exactly, once it's done?
18:08 * diana_coman will check back on this tomorrow
~ 30 minutes ~
18:38 feedbot http://bimbo.club/2019/02/a-few-things-to-remember/ << Bimbo.Club -- A few things to remember.
18:43 asciilifeform apropos of nuffin at all, asciilifeform observes that on the street where he lives , + weather inescapably means the background sounds of the day are ~hourly 'ding' of dropped wrenches
18:44 asciilifeform ( ~99% south amer folx here )
18:45 asciilifeform ( on ~actually warm~ day -- wrench ding + samba )
18:46 asciilifeform !!up Would_you_mind_v
18:46 deedbot Would_you_mind_v voiced for 30 minutes.
18:46 verisimilitude I appreciate it.
18:46 asciilifeform !!help
18:46 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
18:46 verisimilitude Alright.
18:46 asciilifeform verisimilitude ^
18:47 trinque http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Averisimilitude
18:48 asciilifeform trinque: loper-os reader & chronic lurker, seems ready to get in wot
18:50 verisimilitude Alright; my key is registered. I suppose I'll just !!up myself next time, then.
18:50 asciilifeform !!key verisimilitude
18:50 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/9E4BBC83BE16BC928638D2D0C0E5AA2256C2126B.asc
18:50 asciilifeform lessee
18:50 trinque verisimilitude: no reason not to give it a go now
18:50 verisimilitude I was told by deedbot I couldn't $up myself.
18:51 asciilifeform !!rate verisimilitude 1 commonlisp & cpu design fella, http://verisimilitudes.net , loper-os reader .
18:51 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/uaVpB/?raw=true
18:51 asciilifeform !!v 4D28ECC26EACAD809DB36903FC8222D2E66A8F24E1BF6193B341CBA68723078E
18:51 deedbot asciilifeform rated verisimilitude 1 << commonlisp & cpu design fella, http://verisimilitudes.net , loper-os reader .
18:51 asciilifeform verisimilitude: try nao.
18:52 asciilifeform !!down verisimilitude
18:52 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you can privmsg deedbot nao an' light up on own steam
~ 30 minutes ~
19:23 verisimilitude Alright, I got that working now.
19:24 asciilifeform willkommen verisimilitude
19:24 verisimilitude My current PGP setup is horrible, as you can guess.
19:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: if/when you want to swap the key, ask (politely) trinque , it's a manual process
19:25 verisimilitude I'll keep that in mind.
19:25 asciilifeform for nao, simply avoid losing it.
19:26 asciilifeform seems like verisimilitude has visited previously, but nao is getting into adaism via ffa ( http://logs.bvulpes.com/asciilifeform?d=2019-2-5#458157 )
19:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: incidentally diana_coman ( http://ossasepia.com/ ) has quite large set of published ada ( & articles re same ), i highly recommend to read.
19:27 verisimilitude I like the idea of writing software that handles all failure modes correctly, as awful as modern systems make doing so.
19:28 verisimilitude Common Lisp is nice, but I want to handle memory exhaustion well and also avoid using megabytes for programs that shouldn't need that much.
19:28 verisimilitude I'll do so, asciilifeform.
19:28 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you will find that most of the win from adaism is in the approach of thought that it encourages, rather than any mechanical aspect of the lang per se.
19:29 asciilifeform http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/ << also recc'd read.
19:30 verisimilitude There's the saying one shouldn't learn a language that doesn't change the way one thinks; I figured if I would learn at least one language with keyword-based syntax, strong static typing, a lack of advanced metaprogramming, among other qualities, that I should learn Ada.
19:31 verisimilitude It's a nice language, so far, but I've yet to even finish learning all of it.
19:32 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there are other langs with strong typing, but afaik ada is the only 1 where a) with actual standard b) doesn't drag along a gargantuan runtime that won't sit down in small single-chip boxes etc
19:32 asciilifeform see Mocky's review in particular, he actually summarized the whole path that led to the thing
19:33 verisimilitude As a Lisp programmer, what drew you to Ada, asciilifeform?
19:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in 2016 i found that i gotta write a safety-critical arithmetic system (nao known as ffa) and found that i cannot in good conscience do it in anyffin but ada.
19:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in particular , any system with gc is ruled out right off the bat, as you cannot plug timing sidechannel leak if you got gc in the mix.
19:35 asciilifeform the discussion is also summarized in ch1, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913 .
19:37 asciilifeform i explored various alts (e.g. standard-ml sans gc) but found that if the lang produces a binary that cannot be cleanly disasmed and shown to functionally correspond with the source , also cannot in good conscience use such a thing.
19:38 asciilifeform eventually cracked open some bookz and determined, over course of a year+, a subset of ada which roughly corresponds to 'c without the pointeristic retardation', and used this.
19:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you will find that the ada used by asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al, is quite distinct flavour from what you see in barnes & in various corners of the net where published ada proggies (not so many) are found
19:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: for instance, i do not use the secondary stack, or any mechanisms which demand it; or any form of heaps ; or classes; etc
19:44 asciilifeform this means no array concatenation, for instance; or any string ops that do not sit down in apriori known space.
19:44 asciilifeform and no 'access variable', except when required to bake os glue
19:45 asciilifeform there is not presently a paper book that will teach you ~this~ lang, if you're ready to learn it you can do so from asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al. published works.
19:46 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp << example of os glue.
19:46 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/patches/adalisp_genesis << spyked's small lisp in ada.
19:48 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch16/ffa_calc__adb.htm << ffa as of ch. 16.
19:49 asciilifeform there is plenty of other material in the log, to study from.
19:50 verisimilitude Alright; I'll keep that in mind when I am finally able to study your FFA.
19:50 asciilifeform plenty of ongoing work, too. diana_coman for instance is determining a safely usable subset of ada tasking system.
19:50 asciilifeform ave1 is baking a gnat that can build for 'bare irons'.
19:50 asciilifeform ( and already produced a self-contained, glibc-free retargetable gnat, works a++ for e.g. arm64 )
19:51 verisimilitude The Ada program I have planned is in a similar way unconcerned with some of the more advanced features, because much of it is very concrete by now; it shouldn't even need to allocate memory until I have an undo and redo system in it.
19:51 asciilifeform verisimilitude: imho it is a quite fine lang for building systems where 'surprises' are utterly impermissible. but it does take work.
19:52 asciilifeform most folx find that it takes them a coupla days to even get 'hello world' to ~compile~.
19:53 verisimilitude I'll get to have extra fun, because the system with my editor is different from the system with the GNAT.
19:53 asciilifeform this is not in general a problem, e.g. ave1's gnat works just fine as cross-compiler.
19:53 verisimilitude I'm currently using GuixSD and GNAT isn't available at all, is what I mean.
19:53 asciilifeform i intend to port ffa to msdos, for instance, and don't expect that gnat will be building it ~on~ dos box.
19:54 asciilifeform verisimilitude: try building ave1's , unless your iron is quite exotic you will probably find that you can build a cross-gnat that outputs bins for it.
19:56 asciilifeform incidentally if you're on a x86/x64 box, ave1's gnat will run right as-is, it is built statically and outputs strictly static bins.
19:56 asciilifeform so in principle it doesn't particularly matter what flavour of linux you're on (unless want to ~rebuild~ it, then will take a bit of sweat)
19:57 asciilifeform verisimilitude: tell us a bit re what you're building ?
19:57 verisimilitude When I did look into building GNAT from source, I was told in the documentation I'd already need a working GNAT; does ave1's avoid this? Then again, I suppose I could just use the GNAT I alread have on this other machine for that, if it became too inconvenient to use both.
19:57 verisimilitude It's that tool I showed you earlier, asciilifeform.
19:57 asciilifeform verisimilitude: sadly ~all~ gnats require a working , existing gnat, to build
19:57 asciilifeform this is consequence of the fact that gnat is written in ada.
19:58 asciilifeform theoretically it may be possible to build it with a diff adatron, but gnat is the only openly published one
19:58 asciilifeform and therefore the only one we presently use.
19:58 verisimilitude I'll be using Ada to build the practical, robust, simpler, and easy-to-distribute implementation of my machine code development tool, perhaps ironically enough.
19:59 trinque asciilifeform: the lack of a binary-reproducible gcc really puckers when considering how to write an ebuild for ave1's gcc
19:59 asciilifeform trinque: iirc finding & killing whatever piece in gcc outputs variant turd and makes bins unreproducible is on ave1's conveyor
19:59 trinque considering a process that involves "bolt your hand-built gcc here" and then it rebuilds
20:00 trinque asciilifeform: yep, I eagerly await it
20:00 asciilifeform right, this is a must-have
20:00 asciilifeform the ultimate win would be to get something other than gnat ( say, an adatron implemented in cl... ) that can build something resembling a working gnat. but sadly i suspect this is yrs away.
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20:01 asciilifeform ( as it is, we have an active unresolved 'thompsonism' in the mix )
20:03 asciilifeform trinque: possibly at some pt i'ma start to pillage the bolix adatron, for this .
20:03 asciilifeform ( whether this wins over starting from empty, remains to be seen )
20:04 asciilifeform trinque: seems to me that for nao, a working binary build of ave1-gnat gotta be included in standard cuntoo, same as working kernel etc
20:05 asciilifeform ( it does in fact build own self , once built, so can relight the fire indefinitely )
20:05 trinque yep, already need working vtools to run the bootstrapper, so it's not as if there isn't a list of requirements for build env
20:05 asciilifeform aha
20:07 asciilifeform trinque: fwiw i routinely disasm what my gnat shits forth, and haven't yet found any 'surprises', so if ye olde gnat is indeed thompsonistic, it is quite subtle , rather than hammer-in-yer-face 'here's a MB of ??? that phones home to mars'
20:08 asciilifeform ( if yer using a heathen gnat, and a gcc5+istic one, it will output the familiar gcc5isms; but we aint using one )
20:09 asciilifeform i'd still like to ~categorically~ abolish thompsonism at some pt tho.
20:09 trinque indeed
20:10 * asciilifeform described, in the past, the general shape of the recipe for this -- you write e.g. small lisp in coupla kb of asm, and large 1 on that, and an adatron on the latter... etc
↖ ↖
20:10 asciilifeform 'ladder'.
20:11 verisimilitude That's exactly the approach I've been wanting to bring about, asciilifeform.
20:11 asciilifeform and ideally on iron that we bake, rather than x86.
20:11 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ever fpgaize your experimental archs ?
20:11 verisimilitude I've not.
20:11 asciilifeform !#s ice40
20:11 a111 105 results for "ice40", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ice40
20:11 asciilifeform ^ starting pt.
20:12 verisimilitude It's nice to even imagine having something that simply is and doesn't require building at all.
20:12 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ideally would have this for entire stack, transistor & up.
20:13 asciilifeform but first must 'clean kitchen' so it even makes sense to discuss such thing.
20:14 verisimilitude Sure; even though it's only a thought I've made little progress towards at the moment, care for a light description of how I'd do it for a Common Lisp?
20:14 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you may find interesting to study the 1 example where someone actually ~did~ it for common lisp
20:14 asciilifeform !#s bolix
20:14 a111 256 results for "bolix", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bolix
20:15 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=24 << ongoing archaeological dig.
20:15 asciilifeform 1980s usa; they built machine (and using vertical integration of own tooling, for not only os dev but pcb & ic cad etc) precisely for this.
20:17 asciilifeform entirely extinct, casualty of politics and jawdroppingly-inept management; but item to some extent is still available as a fossilized specimen for archaeology.
20:18 asciilifeform much of the complexity in the bolix system is, in light of modern tech, unnecessary, it was muchly constrained by the limitations of the period tech
20:18 asciilifeform (in particular , the cost of storage)
20:19 asciilifeform the basic approach is not only sound, however, but the only ~possible~ sound approach -- you bake a cpu that 'understands types', as discussed in e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 , and go up from there.
20:20 verisimilitude Unfortunately for me, I don't own a Lisp Machine.
20:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 80% of what there is to be learned from the thing, can be learned without access to working unit
20:22 asciilifeform for instance, the vendor docs are widely mirrored, e.g. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/
20:22 asciilifeform on top of this, there's a coupla kilometer of thread in the #t logs re what made the thing interesting.
20:22 verisimilitude I've had or seen a number of discussions concerning such high-level machines with C programmers and whatnot. It's comedic. A C programmer will be the first to prove how type-checking in hardware and other things most assuredly result in some minute loss of efficiency or power or this or that and so is bad, but then turn around and discuss how brilliant the zero-terminated string is and how it's not that inefficient.
20:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: see also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-110.0-125.164 , http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-79.0-85.510 .
20:24 feedbot http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-june-july-and-august-1715-account-of-books-ii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Account of Books - II.
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20:25 asciilifeform 'devout' c programmer is moar or less synonymous with 'brain damage'. these are the people who think 'typed words are expensive' but think nothing of billion+ transistor in current pentium for tlb cache (so winblows can run 5% faster) .
20:25 asciilifeform or, say , the spectacular idiocy of 'branch prediction', currently racking up cost comparable to chernobyl
20:26 asciilifeform ( and with no sign of the inteltards 'waking up' to abandon it )
20:28 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the zero-terminated string more or less single-handedly created the 'comp security' pseudo-industry
20:28 asciilifeform and naturally the idiot camp splits into the 'useful idiots', who are physiologically incapable of having a clue, and the purposefully-mendacious charlatans, who know exactly where 'exploitable' comes from and ~like~.
20:31 asciilifeform fact is, even long before lispm, on the old cdc mainframes, buffer overflow was impossible.
20:31 asciilifeform folx knew how to do this in ~1960s~.
20:39 asciilifeform it was 'forgotten' for what, near as i can tell, consists ~100% of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-307.0-313.492 reason.
20:40 verisimilitude Let's seque to a related topic: What do you think of the Suckless crowd, asciilifeform? I read their mailing list and it's interesting to see how everything UNIX already provides is good and natural and how anything that violates the sacred tenants whatsoever is evil and bloat.
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20:40 asciilifeform !#s catv
20:40 a111 13 results for "catv", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=catv
20:41 asciilifeform !#s suckless
20:41 a111 54 results for "suckless", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=suckless
20:42 asciilifeform !#s cat-v
20:42 a111 52 results for "cat-v", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cat-v
20:42 asciilifeform ^ there we go
20:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/ << summary of mircea_popescu's expedition to cat-v planet.
20:43 asciilifeform ( at one time, they had a fella with a working brain involved, then he vanished, and what remained grew over with fungus. )
20:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there are other 'old unix' cargo cults in the historic record, also; all are quite similar to cat-v , near as i can tell.
20:44 verisimilitude I'll give credit to st, which is a decent terminal emulator, but I'm not impressed with Suckless in general. They're recently combating a bug with some X font nonsense caused by stupid Unicode glyphs; their solution is to stop using the X font nonsense entirely, which will apparently cause its own issues.
20:45 asciilifeform 'stop using' is generally the correct solution to all sortsa problem. trick is that you gotta 1) ~actually stop~ 2) not immediately replace the excised idjicy with a new one
20:46 asciilifeform and 3) not create a vacuum that gets immediately filled by similar or even dumber
20:49 asciilifeform outside of unix planet, typical example of type 3 failure is r5rs scheme (which is ~impossible to write nontrivial program in without reintroducing good % of what makes it seem 'light' vs commonlisp )
↖
20:50 asciilifeform typical 'type 2' failure is, e.g., 'wayland'
20:51 asciilifeform typical 'type 1' fail is the various 'safety' bolt-ons to c/cpp, where yes you can use 'smart pointer' kludge but old barbaric 'dumb' is still permitted (and if you want nontrivial proggy, ~mandatory)
20:51 asciilifeform otherwise you , yes, 'quit drinking' but started instead heroin.
20:52 verisimilitude I've long thought it's reasonable to exert great effort to make a system perfect, where possible; it's the ideal, but maybe not practical. Perhaps the more interesting question is when to stop when you exert so much effort, but have something that can never be made perfect, by design.
20:52 verisimilitude That's what all of these C ``security'' features are.
20:53 verisimilitude It shows no sign of stopping, though.
20:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: field is not at the 'let's discover immortality' stage; but at the 'start fucking washing hands and not drilling well right next to latrine' stage.
20:53 asciilifeform and 'perfect' is red herring
20:54 asciilifeform rather, you want first a :
20:54 asciilifeform !#s fits-in-head
20:54 a111 74 results for "fits-in-head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits-in-head
20:54 verisimilitude We all have different ideas of perfection; you could just have it include this.
20:54 asciilifeform if system does not 'fit in head', it does not even make sense to ~pose the question~ re whether it is bug-free.
20:55 verisimilitude Sure; my system I have in mind to make as perfect as I can certainly fits in a normal-sized head, or should.
20:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: see, for instance, thread http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876186
20:55 a111 Logged on 2018-11-30 02:43 asciilifeform: if you need a 'proof system' to prove $assertion, you have NOT proven it. not to me.
20:56 asciilifeform re what means 'fit in head'.
20:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 1st step is to actually impose on yerself the constraint, 'what i am writing ~is to fit in my head~. then can proceed to help other folx fit into ~theirs~.
20:57 asciilifeform but if author failed to consciously commit to this constraint, in general the resulting work will ~never~ fit-in-head.
20:57 verisimilitude That's reasonable; I've done that much.
20:57 asciilifeform he will use 'libraries' and 'legacy' crapola and autoconf and etc.
20:58 asciilifeform ffa in particular is intended as , among other things, a didactic demonstration of what means 'fits-in-head'.
20:59 asciilifeform a student who reads & understood the thing, oughta be able to 'compile' with bare hands, using nothing but hex editor, for any iron he is given.
20:59 asciilifeform and explain why every single byte he wrote, needs to be where it is.
20:59 asciilifeform because he understands the arithmetic.
21:10 asciilifeform verisimilitude: as a concrete example : you will find that ffa uses an unmoving hinge for karatsuba multiplication. consequently all numbers are required to occupy a space that is a power-of-two bits wide. but from this you get a 3-4x simpler mechanism.
21:11 asciilifeform this is merely 1 example of 'this program MUST fit-in-head, above all else.'
21:11 mircea_popescu holy batlog.
21:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i was massaging a n00b, tends to take space.
21:12 asciilifeform verisimilitude meet mircea_popescu .
21:12 * mircea_popescu shall actually write that report, get to log in a minute.
21:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: d00d lurked for yrs, i dun think he will suffer from waiting a min.
21:13 * asciilifeform shall bbl, has meat to attend to
21:19 mircea_popescu meanwhile some serious fucking breakage occured over here wtf.
21:30 verisimilitude Hello, mircea_popescu, although we've met before.
21:30 verisimilitude Well, as much as one can on IRC over a short time, anyway.
21:37 verisimilitude I'm not certain just reading loper-os.org over a few years counts as lurking, but alright.
~ 19 minutes ~
21:56 mircea_popescu suppose you move over to #asciilifeform then ? because EXACTLY as the topic says, if you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.
22:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: he lives there orig, seemed ready to be introduced to other folx, as adaist. i expect will mostly lurk for the foreseeable fyootur.
22:02 mircea_popescu i guess.
22:04 mircea_popescu meanwhile in other lulz, "Medical uses Varenicline is used for smoking cessation. A meta-analysis found that less than 20% of people treated with varenicline remain abstinent from smoking at one year."
22:04 asciilifeform oughta become apparent soon enuff, whether fella's hands grow from right organ.
22:04 mircea_popescu for the same money could treat them with cocaine.
22:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lol is there a pill for 'abstinent' from nail-biting also
22:05 mircea_popescu funny thing is, 20% "success rate" drug is FDA approved, "only effective treatment"
22:05 asciilifeform iirc freud prescribed cocaine 'against errything', and... worked, after a fashion
22:05 mircea_popescu this fashion lol.
22:06 mircea_popescu anyway, cocaine much better p. universalis than say radithor.
22:08 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892264 << looks like spyked is going to take care of it (though, I dun mind rsyncing it as well) >> http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-201.0-213.84
↖
22:08 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete gutenberg.org copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627828 there's no way they'll stay online all that long.
22:08 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891494 << as of now, no. I would like to see this built, but I have other items to get to first (http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/01/hopper-update-january-2019/)
22:08 a111 Logged on 2019-02-02 03:49 mats: i wonder if lobbes has a portal where i can feed, say, 2k urls for archival?
22:09 * lobbes is a day or so behind on logs, goes to continue catching up
22:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: bonus re varenicline, вареник ~= dumpling
22:09 asciilifeform wonder if the marketwizards knew.
22:10 asciilifeform !#s dip them
22:10 a111 16 results for "dip them", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dip%20them
22:10 mircea_popescu who even knows lol.
22:17 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/no-such-labs-snsa-january-2019-statement/ << Trilema -- No Such lAbs (S.NSA), January 2019 Statement
22:18 asciilifeform neat, compact.
~ 22 minutes ~
22:40 mircea_popescu *thumbsup*
~ 20 minutes ~
23:01 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892493 >> http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-21#886386
23:01 a111 Logged on 2019-02-04 22:58 asciilifeform: hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
23:01 a111 Logged on 2014-10-21 19:27 mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/inchipuiti-va/ << this is incidentally great reading on the topic, albeit in languages.
23:08 BingoBoingo !Xbuy 610mn 82 2k Wired Filthy Fiats (WU esta bien)
23:08 auctionbot Buy order # 1037 created by BingoBoingo: 2k Wired Filthy Fiats (WU esta bien) Opening: 610mn ecu Ending: 2019-02-08 02:11:49.889189 UTC (81 hours)
~ 22 minutes ~
23:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that was the one ! ty
23:34 mircea_popescu mp
~ 15 minutes ~
23:49 mircea_popescu !!down verisimilitude
23:50 mircea_popescu srsly, circumventing voice model ?
23:50 mircea_popescu next clever dork gets the ban.
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