#trilema | 2018-01-04

pest - 25m
trilema - 1022d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2018-01-03 | 2018-01-05 → ↓

00:16	ReadErr	hello
00:16	mircea_popescu	hey
00:19	ReadErr	woke up late, cold weather does that to me
		~ 15 minutes ~
00:34	phf	asciilifeform: https://www.geopolitica.ru/article/gorizont-idealnoy-imperii
00:42	asciilifeform	phf: strooong lsd...
00:42	phf	:D
00:45	ReadErr	I need some LSD to be able to read this
00:47	phf	"doctor, will i be able to play violin after surgery?" "i don't see why not" "are you sure?" "i'm certain" "that's odd, i couldn't play violin before"
		~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~
02:00	mircea_popescu	o look, ssl_error_no_cypher_overlap on that geopolitica."ru" item. don't tell me it's 100% more of the same old http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623380 / http://trilema.com/2017/datamarylandgov/#footnote_0_76632 !
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02:00	a111	Logged on 2017-03-08 22:29 mircea_popescu: in other lulz : femen, the "ukrainian" organisation is selling shit priced in dollars via 2checkout.com, the columbus ohio us corp.
02:01	mircea_popescu	or are we rather going with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759970
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02:01	a111	Logged on 2017-12-28 23:42 phf: zavalashin is another old timer, the piece in question is his only contribution to forbse
02:15	deedbot	http://deedbot.org/bundle-502494.txt
02:19	ReadErr	whats the trigger
02:19	ReadErr	of those msgs
02:19	ReadErr	just sync'ing data?
02:19	mircea_popescu	if bot sees a log line it reads it out
02:20	ReadErr	ohh I see
02:21	lobbes	!!invoice Birdman 0.00224535 http://deedbot.org/deed-487885-1.txt
02:21	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/NO3wI/?raw=true
02:21	lobbes	!!v FC8021469BE8CD2A3781D12B6ACE04ADC5BF3E9AC9A844C08B0FE15A825D2F74
02:26	trinque	lobbes: somehow he's in both deedbot and wallet as lowercase.
02:27	lobbes	odd..
02:27	lobbes	!!key birdman
02:27	deedbot	http://wot.deedbot.org/2B2DC64A8C3DBD14024A610343C14A4124F48195.asc
02:27	trinque	deedbot is case insensitive; wallet ought to be but isn't.
02:27	trinque	one sec.
02:28	trinque	lobbes: give it another crank; I've updated him to the casing he uses
02:29	lobbes	k. should I set up a new invoice or just resend the !!v ?
02:29	trinque	whole thing again please
02:29	lobbes	!!invoice Birdman 0.00224535 http://deedbot.org/deed-487885-1.txt
02:29	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1DdSu/?raw=true
02:30	lobbes	!!v 11FA4EE5663EAB921AF1AE7B246BA6310B86BFD7E077B70F06A6F77A013AAA2E
02:30	deedbot	Invoiced Birdman 0.00224535 << http://deedbot.org/deed-487885-1.txt
02:30	lobbes	nice
02:31	mircea_popescu	!~ticker --market all
02:31	jhvh1	mircea_popescu: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 14853.01, vol: 12958.33787145 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 14832.0, vol: 40432.6221283 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 14961.3, vol: 2740.43955485 \| Volume-weighted last average: 14843.1629768
02:31	mircea_popescu	!~calc 0.00224535 * 14843.1629768
02:31	jhvh1	mircea_popescu: 0.00224535 * 14843.1629768 = 33.32809598995788
02:32	trinque	there's a cheap meal down there in the decimals
02:33	mircea_popescu	aha
02:34	lobbes	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-12#1749770 << the improbability grins again
02:34	a111	Logged on 2017-12-12 03:46 mircea_popescu: seems so improbable.
02:34	mircea_popescu	word
02:35	lobbes	!!deed http://lobbesblog.com/billing/2017/q4/diana_coman_payment_receipt.txt
02:35	deedbot	accepted: 1
02:35	lobbes	!!deed http://lobbesblog.com/billing/2017/q4/mircea_popescu_payment_receipt.txt
02:35	deedbot	accepted: 1
02:42	ReadErr	lol neat, receipts
02:43	ReadErr	what kind of things do yall auction ?
02:44	lobbes	mostly is items found in the game Eulora. But just recently this was auctioned: http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-12-18.log.html#t20:44:22
02:44	lobbesbot	Logged on 2017-12-18 20:44:22: <lobbesbot> AUCTION # 163 has ENDED: The very notebook displayed in http://trilema.com/2017/of-ducks-and-lameness/ ! Free shipping anywhere in the world included. SOLD to danielpbarron for 1mn coppers. Attn: mircea_popescu
02:45	lobbes	I think that may have been the first non-game item auctioned with an actual sale
02:45	lobbes	no takers on danielpbarron's FG
02:45	lobbes	(I figure this is because most here, already own one or more)
02:46	ReadErr	FG ?
02:47	lobbes	!#s FUCKGOATS
02:47	a111	249 results for "FUCKGOATS", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=FUCKGOATS
02:50	lobbes	see also: https://archive.is/CwtVn
02:50	ReadErr	ohhh the board that asciilifeform made
02:51	ReadErr	gotcha
		~ 5 hours 49 minutes ~
08:40	asciilifeform	dafuq, lobbes , why linked a 2016 prerelease fg www snapshot ?
08:41	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1762790 << the last copy before destruction of dulap-II
08:41	a111	Logged on 2018-01-03 05:10 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1762753 << >> https://archive.is/CGQkR
		~ 51 minutes ~
09:33	BingoBoingo	In other discoveries, the little ice cream cones filled with dulce de leche. Very decadent
09:37	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763550 << ftr, it's high time for gabriel_laddel to grasp that his item has less to do with actual lispm than a stuffed dog has with a live one
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09:37	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 02:12 gabriel_laddel: FTR: what I bring to the table is the closest thing to LISPM available, and direction + productive discussion for those already down the rabbit hole. Non-alices need not apply.
09:39	asciilifeform	the funny bit is that gabriel_laddel came pretty close to building something like cuntoo (i.e. a sanely depythonized gentoo) ; which would've been useful and respectable
09:40	asciilifeform	but instead veered into... what, exactly.
09:41	asciilifeform	not, certainly, a lispm. any moar than old rusty toyota with the holes caulked, and oars fitted, is a boat .
09:44	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
09:44	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 14589.0, vol: 13413.26748573 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 14501.0, vol: 43217.36599313 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 14700.5, vol: 3141.77712317 \| Volume-weighted last average: 14531.2338831
09:46	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763607 << nope. better even. it was dugin, and crossed auto-parody horizon
		↖
09:46	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 07:00 mircea_popescu: o look, ssl_error_no_cypher_overlap on that geopolitica."ru" item. don't tell me it's 100% more of the same old http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623380 / http://trilema.com/2017/datamarylandgov/#footnote_0_76632 !
09:49	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> not, certainly, a lispm. any moar than old rusty toyota with the holes caulked, and oars fitted, is a boat . << Well, hazard of desyncing is ending up on the caulk chain
09:49	ReadErr	is there anywhere one could read about this overthrowing the gov plan
		↖
09:50	ReadErr	that danielpbarron spoke of
09:50	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763557 << at this point i'm quite convinced that you can't 'fix clim'. any more than 'fix' winblowz
09:50	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 02:18 gabriel_laddel: In my mind, lispm, or interlisp editor + fixed clim comes first. hence, have been following that route
09:50	asciilifeform	it's a multilayered clusterfuck.
09:51	danielpbarron	ReadErr, this channel's logs, trilema.com, or any other the other blogs by lords
09:51	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: the hazard is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-31#1761834
09:51	a111	Logged on 2017-12-31 16:39 mircea_popescu: don't lie, because if you do you form a sort of mental habit that will prevent you from ever inventing anything.
09:52	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: that's what did him in.
09:52	asciilifeform	he was willing to lie to self re 'clim on linux is a lispm'
09:52	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: AHA, caulk chain!
09:52	BingoBoingo	Where the lie that the filler is the structure!
09:52	ReadErr	danielpbarron: ?
09:53	asciilifeform	'hardware isn't easy to build therefore couldn't possibly be necessary, the gods would not have made this level so hard, for me, the hero' or similar.
		↖ ↖ ↖
09:53	danielpbarron	ReadErr, i don't know that we want to "overthrow" the usg. more like, do our own thing in opposition to them, and eventually hang the bureaucrats
09:54	ReadErr	like your own sovereign nation ?
09:54	danielpbarron	yeah don't you see the topic
09:54	ReadErr	oh lol
09:54	ReadErr	nah i didnt until now
09:57	asciilifeform	ReadErr: are you familiar with the relationship between bitcoin and the empire ?
09:57	ReadErr	i am not yet, no
09:57	ReadErr	was curious to see more
09:57	asciilifeform	ReadErr: it's not wholly unlike the one between mercury and airplane .
09:57	ReadErr	amalgamations
09:59	asciilifeform	the effect of understanding exactly why this is so, is not unlike the effect on child of learning arithmetic
10:00	ReadErr	apparently adults need to relearn arithmetic these days, with the 'new math' they are using
10:01	asciilifeform	!~google lehrer new math
10:01	jhvh1	asciilifeform: new math by tom lehrer - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DwIWaJ0sy03g>; Tom Lehrer - New Math Lyrics \| MetroLyrics: <http://www.metrolyrics.com/new-math-lyrics-tom-lehrer.html>; Tom Lehrer - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lehrer>
10:01	asciilifeform	^ obligatory
10:02	ReadErr	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIWaJ0sy03g
10:02	asciilifeform	anyway, some starting points : there are two types of money. bitcoin, and printolade
10:03	asciilifeform	!#s printolade
10:03	a111	55 results for "printolade", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=printolade
10:04	ReadErr	hmm so a printing medium
10:06	ReadErr	not gonna lie, im lost as to what printolade is
10:07	asciilifeform	!#s fiatola
10:07	a111	57 results for "fiatola", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fiatola
10:07	asciilifeform	^ aka.
10:09	danielpbarron	ReadErr, "money" that is printed. nothing to back it (not that money must be backed)
10:10	ReadErr	gotcha
10:10	danielpbarron	i can see a world in which local banks print notes backed by bitcoin, but the bitcoin itself is not backed
10:10	ReadErr	well that wouldnt be any different than today
		↖
10:10	ReadErr	with usd
10:10	asciilifeform	'backing' is a red herring.
10:10	danielpbarron	yeah i don't know how else to put it
10:11	asciilifeform	the sole hinge is the question of whether somebody can arbitrarily create the item out of thin air at no cost to himself.
10:11	danielpbarron	ReadErr, it's a lot different. there is no limit to how many dollars get printed
10:11	ReadErr	printolade is a finite resource then ?
10:12	danielpbarron	it's finite in the sense that they eventually print so much it isn't worth anything anymore
10:12	asciilifeform	printolade is a device for 'bloodless', quiet remote theft.
10:13	ReadErr	theft of immaterial things ?
10:13	asciilifeform	theft of everything.
10:14	asciilifeform	when you sell something for, e.g., dollar, you are in effect giving it away to the folks with the printing press.
		↖
10:15	ReadErr	i would have thought it would be a redistribution
10:15	asciilifeform	in exactly same sense that a hood rat stealing your car will say he 'was effecting redistribution'.
10:16	ReadErr	but if i sell you a loaf of bread for a dollar
10:16	ReadErr	and you arent printing the currency
10:16	ReadErr	how does that go back to the printers
10:16	ReadErr	theres still the same amount in the system
10:18	ReadErr	hmm
		↖
10:18	asciilifeform	~they~ print. and use the printolade to organize massive pyramid-building projects (e.g. the infamous 'battleship' that clogged the panama canal last year) and breed armies of idiots.
10:18	ReadErr	something just kinda clicked in my head
		↖
10:18	asciilifeform	the existence of the printing press is quite analogous to a short circuit, or memory leak, or other undesirable non-closures of systems in engineering.
10:19	ReadErr	that people have to expend energy/effort to get a dollar, but nothing is required to put that dollar into circulation
10:19	asciilifeform	aaha.
10:20	shinohai	Congratulations, you now understand PoW
10:20	ReadErr	PoW?
10:20	shinohai	Proof of work
10:20	ReadErr	ohh gotcha
10:22	ReadErr	so by your design how would this work
10:32	asciilifeform	ReadErr: bitcoin already exists, and works. and it is worth learning how.
10:33	asciilifeform	!~later tell spyked http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2026&cpage=1#comment-18564
		↖
10:33	jhvh1	asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
10:35	ReadErr	but how would that work in a closed loop system
10:41	BingoBoingo	BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/01/04/professor-learns-student-reading-book-he-finds-reprehensible-opinion << "So Al had read the Bible at my suggestion and also, I remembered, my bible, Anna Karenina, and now he was reading Mein Kampf. Our happy reunion had gone down the sewer."
10:50	phf	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763607 << it's the "let's encrypt" registrar, it started in 2016 so the certs are missing on old deployments
10:50	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 07:00 mircea_popescu: o look, ssl_error_no_cypher_overlap on that geopolitica."ru" item. don't tell me it's 100% more of the same old http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623380 / http://trilema.com/2017/datamarylandgov/#footnote_0_76632 !
10:53	phf	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763609 << not sure Dugin falls into either category, he's one of the "national bolshevik party" leaders, and wikipedia is eager to point out that he's a "fascist!11" and calls to hasten "end of times" with "all-out war", but linked piece is just lulzy in its Vladimir Sorokin slavic nationalist futurism
10:53	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 07:01 mircea_popescu: or are we rather going with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759970
10:55	phf	heh "Classification of Dugin as a fascist is justified, regardless of the fact that today the MGU professor frequently speaks not as a primitive ethnocentrist or biological racist. (...) By «fascist» we understand the «generic» meaning of the concept, used in comparatory research of contemporary right-wing extremism by such well-known historians-comparativists [etc.]
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11:03	mircea_popescu	aand in other items of no particular interest, https://archive.nyafuu.org/bant/thread/3590513/
11:04	mircea_popescu	phf im not sure what you're saying.
11:04	ReadErr	asciilifeform: well lmk later if you get time im curious to hear more
11:05	mircea_popescu	but menawhile in bimbo, http://78.media.tumblr.com/fd77583d87dfb0ee9fb6051ba2875ec9/tumblr_n8pvn8gvg21r4ql18o1_1280.jpg
11:07	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763664 << i dunno man ; stuffed slut has a lot more to do with real woman than the unstuffed pantsuit version.
11:07	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 14:37 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763550 << ftr, it's high time for gabriel_laddel to grasp that his item has less to do with actual lispm than a stuffed dog has with a live one
11:07	mircea_popescu	some things just need stuffin'.
11:08	ReadErr	stacked
11:10	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763671 <<->> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-16#1752094 or something.
11:10	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 14:46 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763607 << nope. better even. it was dugin, and crossed auto-parody horizon
11:10	a111	Logged on 2017-12-16 02:31 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-15#1752059 << hey, assets gotta ass-et.
11:12	ReadErr	she could have it.
11:14	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: dugin is a limonov-like figure, except with moar 'book-larnin''-flavour. if he's an asset, somebody's burning dough for naught.
11:14	asciilifeform	iirc d00d is a court jester for putin.
11:15	ReadErr	wild stuff happening in the news today
11:15	mircea_popescu	well, there's two kinds of identities in this world : keys and brands.
11:15	mircea_popescu	and brands are always someone's asset ; no corporation yet owned itself, now did it ?
11:16	asciilifeform	re news, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-02#1762316 >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763152 >> culmination , https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/04/intel_amd_arm_cpu_vulnerability << embargo leaked
11:16	a111	Logged on 2018-01-02 15:37 asciilifeform: 'With the page table splitting patches merged, it becomes necessary for the kernel to flush these caches every time the kernel begins executing, and every time user code resumes executing. For some workloads, the effective total loss of the TLB lead around every system call leads to highly visible slowdowns: @grsecurity measured a simple case where Linux “du -s” suffered a 50% slowdown on a
11:16	a111	Logged on 2018-01-03 16:03 asciilifeform: in other lulz, intel ceo sells 100% of the stock his contract permitted him to sell ( and even filed the mandatory usg report to hitler, hence how it came out )
11:17	ReadErr	lol 50% slowdown
11:17	ReadErr	jfc
11:17	mircea_popescu	i thought it leaked days ago, "keep open drm bank via one address at max cycle" ?
11:18	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: was disinfo
11:18	asciilifeform	turns out, speculative branching fail.
11:18	mircea_popescu	ah the predictive cache bs ?
11:18	asciilifeform	aha
11:19	ReadErr	https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948934683408072704 The attorney general will scrap Obama-era rules that mandated hands-off approach to states' marijuana-friendly laws, source says http://cnn.it/2AozLtv
11:19	ReadErr	about to be a big state
11:19	ReadErr	states right issue
11:21	asciilifeform	https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-responds-to-security-research-findings << intel immediately rolls out snowjob
11:21	mircea_popescu	ReadErr hey, make laws about how niggers don't need to make the grade to qualify, end up with worst president of worlds' history, confirm bias in they biased against all blacks and have to undo all his idiotic "reforms" at considerable cost.
11:21	asciilifeform	'However, Intel is making this statement today because of the current inaccurate media reports.' << didjaknow.
11:21	mircea_popescu	nobody said "affirmative action" is free.
11:22	ReadErr	mircea_popescu: i wasnt thinking about it like that, more so how much overreach does the current bighand have over the little hand
11:23	ReadErr	for other issues
11:23	mircea_popescu	considering the states attempts to print money work as well as california's at best...
11:23	mircea_popescu	0.
11:24	ReadErr	money will play a huge part for sure
11:24	mircea_popescu	what else plays parts ?
11:25	ReadErr	hmm well in regards to other issues it may not be based on money
11:25	ReadErr	but it could be moral/faith
11:25	mircea_popescu	dude...
11:26	ReadErr	im just thinking like abortion & religion
11:26	mircea_popescu	there is no such thing as "morals" or "faith". you got a population of caged rats -- if the mysterious feeder person shows up in the morning they eat ; if not, they starve. they've been caged long enough for the the incredible productive assets and unlimited human ingenuity existing in America" to consist of 1001 ways to navelgraze.
11:28	mircea_popescu	in this competition, inept foreigners (as in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-02#1745682 ) credit a certain item, which happens to be the fed trade account ; usg controls that -- the stated of * does not. that is the whole and complete story -- whatever usg says state, corporation, individual does.
11:28	a111	Logged on 2017-12-02 22:32 mircea_popescu: BECAUSE http://trilema.com/2014/la-florida-and-other-places/#selection-103.0-103.28 THEREFORE "us empire"
11:28	mircea_popescu	that is why it is the evil empire in the first fucking place.
11:29	ReadErr	curious to see how it plays out
11:29	mircea_popescu	(because unearned "income" corrupts, fundamentally. notice the torrents of "let's make sure we're worthy of manna from heavens" supposed "legislation" in the past decades.)
11:31	ReadErr	thats why i was curious how an ideal world would work
11:31	ReadErr	or system rather
11:31	mircea_popescu	ReadErr the funniest bit, to me, is that this lets-call-it-challenge to empire comes from the exact area fallout predicted, "drugs and slavetrade" (to not say i predicted, mexican cartels finally strong enough to take usg apart). the reason this is funny is because the collapsing roman empire was challenged over -- "the right to counterfit"!
11:31	ReadErr	how is work and money introduced
11:32	mircea_popescu	ie, romans were ~trying~ to build the exact system roosevelt built! but lacking in comms and banking, they didn't manage. usg -- did manage, what comes now down the road is...
11:33	ReadErr	so do you see things getting better or worse
11:33	ReadErr	in the current climate
11:33	mircea_popescu	what's better, what's worse, and for whom ?
11:33	ReadErr	better/worse being an opinion
11:33	ReadErr	or closer/further from your ideal system
11:33	mircea_popescu	i expect things are going to only get better, for us. for everyone else -- http://trilema.com/2016/i-am-firmly-against-universal-franchise/
11:34	mircea_popescu	and, of course, http://trilema.com/2016/an-immodest-proposal/
11:36	ReadErr	interesting you say sell the bottom 1/3rd
11:36	ReadErr	i figured it would be become/sell/dispose
11:36	mircea_popescu	well, if there's no buyers...
11:37	ReadErr	that would be the only way to drive the equilibrium in the direction you want
11:37	mircea_popescu	there's also http://trilema.com/2014/the-battlefield-of-the-future/#selection-125.0-133.670 and so on.
11:38	mircea_popescu	but since we're doing retrospective trilemas, here's an item by way of example : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SXexf/?raw=true
		↖ ↖ ↖ ↖
11:38	mircea_popescu	towards the end i wanted to link a primer, much in the vein of "here's how to eulora" or gentoo or etcetera : "here's why you are intolerably dumb and how to stop being intolerably dumb ; a guide for pantsuit chickies".
11:38	mircea_popescu	anyone wanna write it ?
11:39	ReadErr	"not to mention the slavegirls at home."
11:39	ReadErr	lol
11:39	mircea_popescu	hm ?
11:39	ReadErr	in your link
11:39	mircea_popescu	yes ?
11:40	ReadErr	they asked what you do
11:40	ReadErr	"the slavegirls at home"
11:40	mircea_popescu	i know what's in the paste lol.
11:40	ReadErr	just thought it was funny
11:40	ReadErr	is all
11:40	mircea_popescu	oic!
11:41	ReadErr	this is a lot to take in, depth wise
11:41	mircea_popescu	that's what she said!
11:41	ReadErr	lol
11:45	ReadErr	im honestly surprised no country as started farming humans yet
11:45	ReadErr	publicly
11:47	BingoBoingo	!!up ag3nt_zer0
11:47	deedbot	ag3nt_zer0 voiced for 30 minutes.
11:47	ReadErr	just came up while reading
11:47	phf	mircea_popescu: i was trying to do a quick likbez on why the linked article might be funny, i believe we used to do a disclaimer, for expert entomologist only
11:47	BingoBoingo	ReadErr: What do you think the history of China is?
11:47	BingoBoingo	The uniform consistency etc, it's like other agrobiz
11:47	ag3nt_zer0	thx BingoBoingo... good morning and happy new year TMSR
11:48	mircea_popescu	same to you
11:48	BingoBoingo	de nada ag3nt_zer0
11:49	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763674 <<->> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758470
11:49	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 14:49 ReadErr: is there anywhere one could read about this overthrowing the gov plan
11:49	a111	Logged on 2017-12-25 18:07 mircea_popescu: so, to get on the same page here, the general strategy is, 1. construct undisruptable comms ; 2. disrupt usg&friends comms ; 3. disrupt usg&friends physical presence.
11:49	ReadErr	BingoBoingo: I mean in the sense that
11:49	ReadErr	if I wanted a kidney tomorrow
11:50	BingoBoingo	Dude, China
11:50	ReadErr	I could send them $ and it would be here
11:50	ReadErr	they do this out in the open?
11:50	mircea_popescu	ReadErr don't break up your logical sentences, it's unseemly. people read whole lines, you don[t have to make a saladpoem out of your thoughts.
		↖
11:50	BingoBoingo	Well no, nobody outside TMST does anything out in the open
11:50	ReadErr	ah sorry yea its an old chat habit
11:50	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo fireworks! definitionally in the open!
11:51	mircea_popescu	ReadErr you know who has the same habit ?
11:51	*	BingoBoingo rereading La Florida and lolling
11:51	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo DID YOU EVER IMAGINE WHEN FIRST READING THAT SOON ENOUGH!!!1...!11!! ???
11:52	BingoBoingo	4SRS!!!!! Who could have predicted I'd move to ALTgentina
11:52	ReadErr	BingoBoingo: but why wouldnt they
11:52	mircea_popescu	trilema is like that thing from the matrix, one minute you're swallowing something, the next minute you're fucking a bulky black dude with shaved head AND ENJOYING IT!!!1
11:53	BingoBoingo	ReadErr: Why are so called houses in the US built like movie sets, unlike houses in rich countries liek Uruguay that use Concrete?
11:53	mircea_popescu	ReadErr if you want the use of a twat, you can go to your local twatspensary, it's 20 bux or w/e. if you want organs (to eat, to transplant, whatever) it's like 50k a pop or so, they do it in most countries ; if you want... what exactly do you want ?
11:53	mircea_popescu	humans have been for rent, sale, wholesale etcetera since the dawn of civilisation ; in no small part because THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT ; and what civilisation even means.
11:53	ReadErr	mircea_popescu: I dont deny that it happens but rather wonder why its not advertised and sold
11:54	ReadErr	it seems like it would be a very profitable venture
11:54	mircea_popescu	ReadErr when's the last time a veyron/fighter jet etc was advertised TO YOU ?
11:54	ReadErr	with the current market anyways
11:54	ReadErr	mircea_popescu: fair point
11:54	mircea_popescu	you're not in the right vertical ; are you going to deduce by this "hey, fighters are not sold -- nobody spams me offers for them" ?
11:54	mircea_popescu	there were a lotta muppets with the whole "who buys mpex seats" issue back in the day also ; it's a poor people's limited universe problem.
11:55	BingoBoingo	<mircea_popescu> ReadErr when's the last time a veyron/fighter jet etc was advertised TO YOU ? << The last time a Buggatti was marketed to me was about ~45 minutes ago when I went to Tienda Inglesa for Chocolate milk. Here Bugatti markets... High end asado tools.
11:55	ReadErr	I suppose money does open any door at some point
11:55	mircea_popescu	ReadErr and ironically enough, take an item such as say http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-04#1514478 -- it's right there, begging to be bought. but...
11:55	a111	Logged on 2016-08-04 14:47 mircea_popescu: well, by far the cheapest masquerade of a solution is spending the 45mn or so to buy a junky old tanker and be happy.
11:56	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo which, believe it or not, is why i said veyron!
11:56	ReadErr	but I wonder why an enterprising individual hasnt come along and made it more accessible, or rather go for the volume game
11:57	mircea_popescu	ReadErr because we don't believe in the mass market.
11:57	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: AHA.
11:57	ReadErr	since the demand far exceeds the supply with the conventional routes
11:57	mircea_popescu	absolutely not.
11:57	BingoBoingo	Montevideo has dispelled much of the appeal of Big ships for me. The whole watching them lumber about in the Rio de Plata... They don't look very fun to drive.
11:57	mircea_popescu	demand from plebs is a) entirely imaginary and b) fucking poisonous. fuck them, let them eat their plastic and thank their incagod.
11:58	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo nobody drives busses recreationally...
11:58	BingoBoingo	Sure some people do
11:58	phf	the noise exceeds the supply
11:59	mircea_popescu	^
11:59	mircea_popescu	which is what the "here's capital good selling under book price -- go, buy" link was all about! there's not going to be any "SALE!!!" better than this, ever, no matter what.
12:00	mircea_popescu	but... there's no demand. there's just noise shaped-to-look-like-demand by the sort of cocksuckers who made their life be about making noises shaped-to-look-like-a-constitutional-law-professor-while-being-this-dumb-fuck: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763229
12:00	a111	Logged on 2018-01-03 17:58 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763108 << i had to google the name, ran across principally the picture of an ugly orc thug in one of those university bonnets. why the fuck is a 18yo monkey wearing collegiate apparel, not nearly old enough ?
12:00	ReadErr	mircea_popescu: ohhh it highlighted the first line i didnt think to keep reading
12:00	mircea_popescu	ReadErr always read context.
12:00	ReadErr	since it looks similar to the search page
12:00	asciilifeform	timisoara was a valhalla of these. 'stadium-sized factory, ONLY 1mil $!11'
12:00	ReadErr	which doesnt have the context
12:01	ReadErr	my fault for not paying attention, busy day at work cant think straight
12:02	mircea_popescu	for instance when i linked you to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-31#1761560 i specifically meant you to read the whole thing lol. it explains why "why an enterprising individual hasnt come along and made it more accessible, or rather go for the volume game".
12:02	a111	Logged on 2017-12-31 00:05 mircea_popescu: ah, re plebs problems something like http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/#comment-92015 may interest you
12:03	ReadErr	planet3 ?
12:03	mircea_popescu	in other news, veyrons on sale starting around 1mn fiats.
12:03	mircea_popescu	some people paid 600 bitcoinz for a car before!
12:04	ReadErr	i would love 20/20 foresight lol
12:04	mircea_popescu	lol
12:04	*	asciilifeform had to look up what even is a 'veyron'
12:04	mircea_popescu	here's an item : https://archive.is/g9gAt pantsuit.org explains to the noisy plebs why they dun wanna the item
12:04	mircea_popescu	"you can't work on it yourself!!!".
12:05	mircea_popescu	i'd like to meet this esl tard who reads jezbel and works on his car himself.
12:05	ReadErr	or someone who buys with with the expectation of doing that
12:05	ReadErr	buys it with*
12:06	mircea_popescu	"this car is great -- every 50 miles you gotta pop the hood"
12:06	asciilifeform	iirc mthreat works on his mig, himself. ( but dun read jizzbel.. )
12:06	mircea_popescu	compare/contrast with "this wife is great -- every night..."
12:06	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not THAT much you can do on that sorta engine "yourself". it's really the simplest thing
12:07	asciilifeform	not unless yer also a hobby machinist, and said hobby also includes cutting pyrophoric metals under noble gas etc
12:08	mircea_popescu	right.
12:08	mircea_popescu	~precision~ cutting.
12:08	asciilifeform	naturally not hacksaw-cutting, lol
12:08	ag3nt_zer0	ok in my attempts to set up trb node I encountered a snag trying to install gpg keychain to verify sigs... tried a bunch of troubleshooting tips but no luck. i'm using ubuntu 14.04 - thinking of starting fresh. what is best linux dist for trb node?
12:08	mircea_popescu	ag3nt_zer0 be specific about "a snag"
12:10	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'целый день пилили и рубили -- не смогли компьютер починить...' (tm)(r)( asciilifeform's brother )
		↖
12:10	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this "i gots to see what goes on in engine" thing is very present, though. /me watched a half hour of "mad max, the version with the crazy south african hottie who got black gangraped so much in that beautifully democratic country, she's all about cutting out her tits and painting her face into wall-like appearances, EXACTLY like the native girls of the accursed africa -- and just like them, will NOT think of ty
12:10	mircea_popescu	he whys and wherefores involved".
12:11	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: recall your toilet chix ?
12:11	asciilifeform	from the article re when the mains current gave out
12:11	mircea_popescu	they had all sorts of (utterly nonsensical) "cars of the future", their features being that they were "warlike" (in a dysfunctional, anti-mechanicistic, looks-are-everything-and-hot-beats-cute girl pov) and that they had mechanisms exposed
		↖
12:11	mircea_popescu	TO SAND! mechanisms, out of the fucking hood, in the desert.
12:11	mircea_popescu	this made sense to them -- and if it makes sense to you, the whole rest of that dumb shit probably also will.
12:11	asciilifeform	kabuki
12:12	mircea_popescu	(pro tip -- there's chastity cages, and girl slavery. because there's all these unemployed http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759156 who'd do screentime cheaply)
12:12	a111	Logged on 2017-12-27 07:13 mircea_popescu: aaand in other humanities : a. j. ayer was once in the livingroom of one fernando sanchez on west 57th st, hanging out with a buncha young hussies/models when one girl came arunnin' complaining that her friend was being assaulted in the bedroom. ayer went in, where he found mike tyson atop an obscure south london model. when the (at the time 70yo) oxford professor asked him to quit it, mike tyson wanted to know if he knows wh
12:13	ag3nt_zer0	it was a month ago so don't have the specifics anymore but system was telling me that i needed a number of libs... I dl'ed and installed but the libs later in sequence were telling me they needed the earlier libs which were already supposedly installed. I tried the process several times and am happy to do it again if you think this is the best way but I was thinking maybe ubuntu isn't the most pragmatic for this?
12:13	mircea_popescu	ag3nt_zer0 do it again, a) write down the specifics and b) don't wait a month.
12:13	ag3nt_zer0	ok
12:13	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "whole day slashed and burned -- fucking with computor" ?
12:14	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: whole day sawed, chopped -- but could not fix the comp !
12:14	mircea_popescu	hm, better that way
12:14	asciilifeform	( in re 'user-serviceable parts' )
12:14	phf	ag3nt_zer0: there's a general lean against ubuntu here (i mean it's a piece of shit), but it should work, though you're going to run into pointless library conflicts and such, that an expert can resolve on sight. need sight though
12:15	mircea_popescu	phf i can't understand why this would be, after all ubuntu came about as an attempt to bring linux to the masses.
12:15	mircea_popescu	little did we know that whatsoever you bring to the masses, the masses also bring themselves to.
12:15	asciilifeform	^
12:16	phf	did you know that the name comes from a sacred african word, that means love and care for your fellow human being?
12:16	mircea_popescu	you know ?
12:16	BingoBoingo	That's bullshit of the same vein as the t-shirts that say "Keep East Saint Louis Beautiful"
12:16	ReadErr	and the domain name was probably available
12:17	mircea_popescu	phf i thought it meant "toxoplasmosis is a kind of meeting of the minds also!" tbh.
12:17	mircea_popescu	admittedly my orclangfu is weak.
12:17	mircea_popescu	hmn, should orclangfu be in the thesaurus ?
12:18	ReadErr	ive noticed everyone here has very large vocabularies
12:18	mircea_popescu	shit, there's no orc, there's no fu, i gotta ediut this
12:18	mircea_popescu	ReadErr not to mention speaks multiple languages. "esl" is a thing even.
12:20	ReadErr	I dont doubt that either, ive seen many esl speakers out perform americans/brits
12:21	asciilifeform	ReadErr: 'single', here, not 'second'
12:21	asciilifeform	( iirc this is already in mircea_popescu's glossary )
12:22	ReadErr	i only know english, was never motivated to learn another
12:22	asciilifeform	~that~ esl.
12:23	asciilifeform	it's a type of illiteracy, and curable.
12:23	BingoBoingo	ReadErr: Why not? You got a thing for humping hamplanets or something?
12:23	mircea_popescu	ReadErr hey, asciilifeform learned romanian, BingoBoingo learned spanish, nothing bad happens.
12:23	asciilifeform	ro as 5th lol
12:23	BingoBoingo	Learned is a charitable description of my spanish
12:23	ReadErr	mircea_popescu: yea but ive just never been in a position where it was desirable to learn that over something else
12:24	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i dun even know if it is 'good sportsmanship' to count individual langs. oughta count families, perhaps ? slavic, germanic , roman
12:25	shinohai	imho Ubuntu is is simply another nigger word for Ebola
12:26	ReadErr	they already have their own distribution
12:28	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2016/republican-thesaurus-with-vocabulary-and-dictionary/ << added orc and -fu ; comments welcome as always.
12:28	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform aha.
12:29	mircea_popescu	but hey, baby-did-its-first-travel folk think going from france to spain travel! similarily to how "i crossed state lines! went from upstate ny back to city THROUGH VERMONT!!!11)
12:31	esthlos	please critique: http://www.esthlos.com/files/v.scm . no posix/gnupg or vpatch parsing yet, just the basic logic
12:31	mircea_popescu	esthlos please let your paragraphs flow. please.
		↖
12:32	esthlos	what's the reasoning?
12:33	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-17#1752560
12:33	a111	Logged on 2017-12-17 03:52 mircea_popescu does his usual s%\n\n%\r\r% s%\n% % s%\r\r%\n\n% while muttering underbreath about the idiocy of fucktards who STILL DON'T UNDERTAND NEWLINE STANDS FOR NEW PARAGRAPH!!11
12:33	mircea_popescu	esthlos so you don't attempt to control my viewport ?
12:34	asciilifeform	does scheme even have multiline comments ?
12:34	asciilifeform	afaik it doesn't
12:34	asciilifeform	( nor does ada )
12:34	mircea_popescu	maybe your wrap(60) or whatevert it is makes text take up 40% of my screen and bs like that.
12:34	esthlos	asciilifeform: nah
12:34	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform he added the ;; each line
12:34	mircea_popescu	also breaking my automation in the process, because THIS it didn't see before.
12:34	asciilifeform	this forces a fixed line length
12:34	asciilifeform	( same as -- in ada )
12:34	esthlos	in emacs: fill-region, comment-region
12:34	mircea_popescu	i don't get it, if your ;; is followed by 8kb of text this breaks something ?
12:34	*	asciilifeform standardizes on traditional, ancestral 80col
12:35	asciilifeform	it breaks my panasonic 9-pin matrix printer!111
12:36	esthlos	could just have ;; with long line if it helps
12:36	mircea_popescu	http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/nvmHd/?raw=true << what is the problem with 1st rather than 2nd ?
12:36	asciilifeform	makes phf's viewer unusable too
12:36	asciilifeform	( results in kilometer of horizontal scroll )
12:36	mircea_popescu	esthlos seems to me very much a case of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763857
12:36	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 16:50 mircea_popescu: ReadErr don't break up your logical sentences, it's unseemly. people read whole lines, you don[t have to make a saladpoem out of your thoughts.
12:37	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform at some point phf will implement a wordwrap ; which can be done for browser window.
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12:37	asciilifeform	www browsers dun reflow any better than printer.
12:37	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: afaik without js , cannot be
12:37	mircea_popescu	i never had a problem with trilema!!11
12:37	mircea_popescu	of course it can jeez. it's a object property.
12:38	mircea_popescu	anyway, absent this logical rule, we'll do what, add "wordwrap(magicnumber" in the unloved v style manual ?
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12:38	asciilifeform	80!!
12:38	mircea_popescu	what happens when two dudes with diff magicnumbers comment on the same bit of code ?
12:38	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform he's not even using 80!
12:38	asciilifeform	the non-80 one gets clubbed
12:38	mircea_popescu	he's using 60minus2 for ;;
12:38	asciilifeform	<=80 obviously
12:38	esthlos	haha i used 55
12:38	asciilifeform	60 is merely ugly. but it doesn't break anything
12:38	mircea_popescu	breaks my fucking process is what it breaks.
12:38	esthlos	have to impose my shit laptop on everyone
12:39	mircea_popescu	why the fuck am i scrolling 2.5x
12:39	asciilifeform	it eats vertical space wastefully, but what does mircea_popescu have that it breaks ?
12:39	*	mircea_popescu would settle for 120!
12:39	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform many things i use are deliberately set up so either it works or it fails. in thsi case "couldn't make text flow sanely - aborting".
12:40	mircea_popescu	because yes, normally i have the above linked mask applied on the inanity the world produces.
12:40	esthlos	but firefox doesn't implement knuths algo!!11
12:40	esthlos	got knows what emacs uses
12:40	esthlos	god
12:41	asciilifeform	emacs auto-fill is deeply braindamaged yes
12:41	phf	emacs auto-fill actually implements knuth's algo..
12:41	esthlos	phf: no fucking way
12:42	asciilifeform	hey esthlos , what's 'srfi', 'srfi-1', 'ice9' ?
12:42	asciilifeform	and what are they doing in your proggy
12:43	esthlos	asciilifeform: https://srfi.schemers.org/
12:44	shinohai	For making lists?
12:44	mircea_popescu	;; It's simple to determine which vpatches have parents;;; just scan linearly. Performance is O(n^2). << this hurt me painfully.
12:44	esthlos	https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2010-07/msg00046.html
12:44	mircea_popescu	am i the only one who doesn't deem n>1k improbable ?
12:44	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: we had a lengthy thread re subj
12:44	esthlos	they could be removed, but are helpful
12:44	mircea_popescu	don't tell me it came out as "blockchain never had 1mn blocks so why should we care"
12:45	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-18#1375225
12:45	a111	Logged on 2016-01-18 15:58 ascii_butugychag: the O(N^2) instrinsic runtime of unknown-patch-bag+unknown-sig-bag is something i realized from the start
12:45	phf	asciilifeform: i'm not sure you can even scheme without a bunch of srfi's, the first dozen establish a subset of common lisp standard
12:45	asciilifeform	phf: this is 1) true 2) still a war crime
12:45	mircea_popescu	poor esthlos, he was just looking for comments, not for insanity from bearded hell.
		↖
12:45	esthlos	mircea_popescu: :)
12:46	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: nope. it was resolved in the correct way ('give the vtron the obvious hint , i.e. sanely named files , that turns the problem from o(n^2) into o(n)' )
12:46	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform question is, on the practical score why not rule out unacceptable sigs first ; and more in the general... well...
12:46	phf	well, i for one love his sicp-ish captured context lambda classes!
12:46	asciilifeform	what means 'rule out'
12:47	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform when building a tree, first load up the sig folder, then apply it as a mask on the patch folder, then proceed building with only the patches that passed.
12:47	asciilifeform	turning a dump truck full of ???!?$$??? that you found on the street, that contains some parts valid v-sigs, patches, and some parts chicken shit -- into a purely valid v-tree , is o(n^2). but q is why to permit the dump truck situation to begin with.
12:47	asciilifeform	there's no practical reason to.
12:47	mircea_popescu	nevermind that, i'm asking about his algo
12:48	asciilifeform	right, his algo follows 'dump truck' model. my orig one -- did not, it did exactly as mircea_popescu describes.
12:48	mircea_popescu	(not a great lisper myself, but it seems to me here he got caught in the "since i won't be implementing the posix and gnupg bs yet, im not going to put the thing dependent on tyhem at its right place either, because i wanna fuck myself over")
12:51	phf	the way btcbase does it is first pairs all patches by name (following our convention, but next by subst distance), processes those and what's left over is brute forced. algo though was implemented back when naming convention was in flux, so in practice it's o(n), but in reality it could approach o(n^2) if patch bucket is full of shit
12:52	esthlos	ah I realized a fucked up the seal handling, thanks mircea_popescu
12:52	mircea_popescu	you know, not a great graphs mind myself, but it seems to me our problem may admit better solutions eventually.
12:52	asciilifeform	1 better-solution was already discussed : negrate bozo who signs a cycle-closing patch
12:52	mircea_popescu	ah, cycles outta the question from the get go
12:52	asciilifeform	( it is pointedly NOT an item that can be produced accidentally )
12:53	asciilifeform	this abolishes the o(n^2) cyclicity detector. which is not wholly unlike 'running marathon in gas mask'
12:53	mircea_popescu	consider the greater problem here asciilifeform : i give you a set of 1mn units of blockchain. you are to reconstruct their order.
12:53	mircea_popescu	seriously, you're going to try n(n-1)/2 ?
12:53	phf	wait, are we talking about the same thing? i thought conversation is about pairing patches with seals, how did cycles come into the picture?
12:54	asciilifeform	phf: separate item, but ended up in same thread. it's the 1 quadratic algo left in proper-v
12:54	mircea_popescu	phf he's the proverbial fox hunting dog that the fox ~doesn't even have to bat its tail~ for him to fork off.
12:55	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the fortunate thing is that -- supposing it were an actual, rather than 'alien' ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-26#934853 ) problem -- it parallelizes.
12:55	a111	Logged on 2014-11-26 01:11 asciilifeform: 'Id like to see one expression coined by the poker writer Matt Matros become common parlance, since it applies far more widely than only to poker. An alien problem means some problem that might be fun, interesting and educational to analyze, and it would be really important to know the solution if you ever found yourself in that situation, but the point is that you shouldn't even be having that problem in the first pl
12:55	mircea_popescu	well since you squeeze me, here it is : i suspect the notion of "shouldn't even be having" is 100% pantsuit wank.
12:55	mircea_popescu	there is no such thing in nature.
12:56	asciilifeform	sure there is. it means that the builder made a wrong cut. e.g. edison's dc resistive losses.
12:56	asciilifeform	'i gotta pay people to stand and hold this wall up'
12:56	mircea_popescu	i understand how the ideal model is supposed to work.
12:56	mircea_popescu	but the statement is that this is an in-universe, ie, fictive model. it dun work except as such.
12:57	asciilifeform	plox to expand ?
12:57	mircea_popescu	i will.
12:57	phf	i thought kahn topo sort is trivially extendable with cycle detection? you just put another flag on the node for which you check
12:57	BingoBoingo	Or wins lotto, gets Buggatti, injures your wall. People gotta stand and hold it up nao.
12:57	mircea_popescu	consider the case of a doctor. guy comes into office, outputs a string ; doctor responds with some activity and some instruction ; problem gets better or doesn't.
12:58	mircea_popescu	now consider the case of witch doctor. guy comes into office, outputs a string ; witch doctor responds with some activity and some instruction ; problem does not get better.
12:58	mircea_popescu	witch doctor has gotten "99% of the way there" -- the only problem is the tail.
12:58	mircea_popescu	so entrepreneurial witch doctor applies self to inventing problems he could actually solve, so as to flip "doesn't" into "does or doesn't".
12:59	mircea_popescu	here it goes : "did you know, women, that before pantsuited hilarity clinton was invented, you had problems XYZ ? and that afterwards, these were resolved ?" "nope" "we'll... it's all recorded for all enternity-till-year-end on jezbel" "Where is this wonder ?" "oh, DO WE REALLY STILL HAVE TO ?!?! IN 2018 ?!?! WE'VE ALL MOVED PAST THAT!!!"
		↖
13:00	asciilifeform	iirc original term of art was sumthinglike barnum's elephant-repellent
13:01	BingoBoingo	!!up mircea_popescu
13:01	deedbot	mircea_popescu voiced for 30 minutes.
13:01	mircea_popescu	check it out... somehow dc'd but the protected name still avail.
13:01	mircea_popescu	nuts.
13:01	BingoBoingo	AHA, crazy speed
13:01	mircea_popescu	anyway -- an alien problem is a problem with a banal retrospective solution that doesn't exist. it works well for fiction, where one can say "and on planet x, people all walked with their nose in a clothespin, then our hero came in, told them to ditch the clothespins, AND THEREFORE WAS A HERO. AND IS!" ie, establishing shot.
13:01	BingoBoingo	Perhaps the histamine overload is finally getting to fleanode
13:01	mircea_popescu	but the fact that such a planet could never exist is left unadressed -- the needs of fiction are fictive.
13:02	mircea_popescu	that make sense asciilifeform ?
13:02	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it makes sense. nevertheless, epicycles were abolished. the gymnastiscs of roman arithmetic are no longer here. and so on.
13:03	mircea_popescu	"if you're watching it-- it's fior you" means, also, "if you have this problem, it's not an alien problem", or otherwise put "a study of alien problems is necessarily useless ; other than to prepare one for a life spent trying to write for jezbel"
13:03	asciilifeform	the clothespin scenario unfortunately exists in life. see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759556
13:03	a111	Logged on 2017-12-28 14:20 mircea_popescu: nah. cleverness in humans is simply equivalent of what drunks call "a moment of lucidity", ie, stopped being indescribably fucking stupid for one god damned moment.
13:04	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform but now merge these factual observations, which are correct BUT SUPERFICIAL, with your own knowledge on and around the scheuristic point of "coffin liners".
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13:04	mircea_popescu	something was abolished, yes, but not THAT, and more important NOT LIKE THAT!
13:04	mircea_popescu	and newton didn't sit down to abolish them, either.
13:04	asciilifeform	what, say, is 'v', other than 'hey whydontcha take off the clothespin'
13:04	mircea_popescu	this is ~unclear~.
13:04	mircea_popescu	that's the major point here, that a categorical split ("oh, either problem or aproblem!") is based on no equivalent phenomenological split.
13:05	asciilifeform	i can't speak for the good doctor newton. but asciilifeform specifically ~did~ target , for extermination, 'git' & related idiocies.
		↖
13:05	mircea_popescu	far be it from me to impugn fiction as the primary driver of engineering effort.
13:05	asciilifeform	they do all of the good of smallpox.
13:05	mircea_popescu	nevertheless...
13:06	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2015-10-07#1294036 << moar oldthread re subj
13:06	a111	Logged on 2015-10-07 13:46 mircea_popescu: once newton/leibniz fixed notation, for instance, to take a very easy historical example,
13:07	asciilifeform	correct mechanics of model ( aka notation ) for a problem , has the same effect as levers do in mechanical work
13:07	asciilifeform	whether we're speaking of v, or of the introduction of polar coords, or lagrange's mechanics, etc
13:09	shinohai	My how nuclear war has changed in just over half-century: http://archive.is/dDmZ9
13:09	asciilifeform	to borrow BingoBoingo circa 2014 -- the correct solution to fat is... not to become fat; rather than 'reach implements' and double-wide train seats
13:11	BingoBoingo	Speaking of lunch today was a liter of chocolate milk and a tiny sandwich
13:12	shinohai	Such Lordly fare.
13:12	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that many problems admit retrospective solutions is not at issue here ; the whole content of "i suspect the notion of "shouldn't even be having" is 100% pantsuit wank." is that "alien problems" are an artefact of the retelling of history (esp if with a purpose) rarther than of the making of history.
13:13	asciilifeform	inescapably the shit-model is only revealed to be such, ~after~ the epicycles removed
13:13	asciilifeform	how else.
13:13	mircea_popescu	right.
13:13	mircea_popescu	well, i thought it was being proposed as a forward looking heuristic.
13:14	asciilifeform	it is only to very limited extent forward . ( recall the 'physicists have a duty to press for clean unification' asciilifeform thread )
13:14	mircea_popescu	shinohai so apparently trump is aware neither button works wortha shit ?
13:15	asciilifeform	'if the model is ugly, it's epicyclic even if we don't have the reduction yet' is an ideological, yes, position
13:15	mircea_popescu	quite. nothing wrong with it, as such. but AS SUCH.
13:16	mircea_popescu	consider as a fine applicaiton of recursion just how "ugly" (from a purely complexity-boundedness pov) this discussion of, let's recall, originally http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764040 got. and within a short time.
13:16	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 17:45 mircea_popescu: poor esthlos, he was just looking for comments, not for insanity from bearded hell.
13:16	shinohai	Ah but Best Korea no longer has just a switch, but a KEYBOARD
13:16	mircea_popescu	also, "ugly because broken" ?
13:16	mircea_popescu	shinohai http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-02#1762491
13:16	a111	Logged on 2018-01-02 16:49 mircea_popescu: consider this major point : in ancient greece, people were depicted with small penii ; large ones were considered bestial, comedic and insulting.
13:17	shinohai	lolz
13:17	mircea_popescu	maybe one of these days they build a... TOWER.
13:17	shinohai	Now I am left wondering if there were ads all over ancient Greece selling dick-shrinking pills.
13:18	mircea_popescu	indeed.
13:18	mircea_popescu	astringents!
13:19	asciilifeform	notice how most drawn human figures even today -- unless, i suppose, drawn by streicher -- have smaller, than in life, nose. but nobody thinks this is odd.
13:20	asciilifeform	details proclaimed uninteresting -- get de-emphasized
13:20	mircea_popescu	no, i know girl that thinks this is odd.
13:20	mircea_popescu	and we're discussing here things such as athletic events (which yes, naked boys).
13:21	mircea_popescu	(in fact -- in ancient greece clothing quite unmanly, for women and old folks)
13:22	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763687 << the example used notwithstanding, i suspect this is a large portion of what goes on in, eg, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 "minds".
13:22	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 14:53 asciilifeform: 'hardware isn't easy to build therefore couldn't possibly be necessary, the gods would not have made this level so hard, for me, the hero' or similar.
13:22	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: but since we're doing retrospective trilemas, here's an item by way of example : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SXexf/?raw=true
13:22	asciilifeform	howsthat
13:23	mircea_popescu	well, suppose under-30 chickie runs into problem. what avenues of resolution are open to her ?
13:23	asciilifeform	well:
13:23	mircea_popescu	go to teacher/boss/great inca and say "this is an alien problem" meaning, "you gods shouldn';t have made the maze so long for me, the rat"
13:23	mircea_popescu	this eventually gets baked in.
13:23	asciilifeform	'programs make use of recursion, iteration, and... uteration' -- asciilifeform's pet
13:24	asciilifeform	that last one , refers to 'HULP, i'ma gurl, fix this..'
13:24	mircea_popescu	"i shouldn't have to strip to get an A, i shouldn't have to suck cock to get a job, i shouldn't have to fuck the customer to keep it, i shouldn't have to..."
13:24	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lmao!
13:24	asciilifeform	( in the spirit of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-20#1672530 )
13:24	a111	Logged on 2017-06-20 17:19 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: stalin, supposedly, once said to his friends, 'history divides into three eras, matriarchate, patriarchate, and secretariate'
13:24	mircea_popescu	problem with uteration is that it depends on castration.h
13:25	asciilifeform	not necessarily. can also come in 'come back with yer shield, or on it' variant
13:25	mircea_popescu	now THAT is a fine fucking example of a problem you don't want to ever have : when your problems are resolvable by whining it's not unlike when your washing is resolved by the ocean : you're fucked.
13:26	asciilifeform	or in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-27#1743266 variant.
13:26	a111	Logged on 2017-11-27 01:57 asciilifeform: 'Inainte baieti, nu va lasati, sunteti cu mine! Inainte! Razbunati-ma!'
13:26	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform notice the "baieti", "boys"
13:27	asciilifeform	in mircea_popescu's cosmography, the folx who banzai'd to avenge the chix , castrato ?
13:28	mircea_popescu	this is a subtle matter. did they banzai "because such world as it is not worth my time" or did they "because her world must be defended!"
13:28	phf	esthlos: i was wrong, i remember looking at knuth&plass implementation in elisp a decade ago, but it's not in mainline. incidentally you could wire own k&p into normal-auto-fill-function..
13:28	mircea_popescu	ie, were they nazi or weren't they ?
13:28	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: unfortunately i can't answer this, my ouijatron is broken...
13:29	mircea_popescu	and in turn neither can i.
13:29	asciilifeform	based on the type of man that at the time existed, and ~came out~ of the war -- i would conjecture : the former. rather than 'for her demoocracy'
13:30	mircea_popescu	well, judging by the fact that it was socialist war not imperial (as the historical term) war, i would conjecture the latter.
13:30	mircea_popescu	i expect most didn't even know why the fuck they're there.
13:30	asciilifeform	dunno that 'isms' play into it. it's a firmware call, 'pet chix dismembered in front of you ? banzai'
13:30	mircea_popescu	certainly previously they didn't, as per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCLh51FhpA
13:31	asciilifeform	!!up mircea_popescu
13:31	deedbot	mircea_popescu voiced for 30 minutes.
13:31	asciilifeform	see also other banzais, e.g. '... Если немца убил твой брат, / Если немца убил сосед, — / Это брат и сосед твой мстят, / А тебе оправданья нет. / За чужой спиной не сидят,/ Из чужой винтовки не мстят ...'
13:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it IS the fundamental behaviour of male seeking though ; since sexuate species only has any use for some males...
13:32	mircea_popescu	it's drone behaviour, what.
13:32	asciilifeform	like all other fw calls, it's built into ~all~ of'em. like nipple.
13:33	asciilifeform	the father of 4, will also banzai.
13:33	mircea_popescu	i have my doubts.
13:34	mircea_popescu	but certainly a possibility.
13:35	asciilifeform	phenotype is not unlike 'qbasic', in that http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-10#614261
13:35	a111	Logged on 2014-04-10 21:08 asciilifeform: phun phact. msdos 'edit' is actually 'qbasic', with the basic ineptly commented out - in such a way that the code is still buried in the binary.
13:35	esthlos	phf: hmm
13:38	esthlos	mircea_popescu: wrt the alien problem, you're saying the complexity is actual?
13:40	esthlos	I've spent the last year or so trying to figure wtf happened to computing post-symbolics. still can't see the complexity which lead to the current disaster
13:41	esthlos	guys like alan kay push a certain political narrative, but it doesnt add up
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13:42	mircea_popescu	esthlos im saying it's not clear. it might well be.
13:42	asciilifeform	esthlos: sanity, esp when it has a short-term cost, is not the default. your null hypothesis is broken.
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13:43	esthlos	oh fun, the blog of the guile lead: http://wingolog.org/
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13:44	asciilifeform	why am i reading about e.g. '...ignorance about the lived experience of women compiler writers, say, can lead to hurtful behavior...' ?
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13:44	phf	esthlos: reflecting on it a bit, tricky part of k&p for plain text is de-hyphenating for reflow
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13:45	asciilifeform	'trying to get them closer to a justice-affirming perspective'
13:45	asciilifeform	'the extent to which men's-rights-activist and racist talking points had made it into their discourse, and the way the individualist edifice of their world-view enabled their pre-fascist ideas'
		↖
13:45	esthlos	for lulz
13:45	asciilifeform	'My conclusion from the interaction is that, now more than ever, when it comes to future collaborators, in any context, it is important for anyone for whom justice matters to probe candidates deeply for fascist tendencies. If they show a sign, pass. Anti-immigrant, anti-woman, anti-queer, and anti-black behaviors and actions often correlate: if you see one sign, often there are more underneath. Even if the person claims to value egal
13:45	asciilifeform	itarianism, the perspectives that guide their actions may not favor justice in your organization. '
13:46	asciilifeform	http://wingolog.org/photos/photos/4051 << author.
13:47	BingoBoingo	#Guessthegendar
13:48	phf	that's my favorite photo http://wingolog.org/photos/photos/3482
13:48	esthlos	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764185 << bah, let me keep my youthful naviete a little longer
13:48	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:42 asciilifeform: esthlos: sanity, esp when it has a short-term cost, is not the default. your null hypothesis is broken.
13:49	phf	"Oh, good evening my hackfriends! I am just chuffed to share a thing with yall: tomorrow we release Guile 2.2.0. Yaaaay!"
13:50	phf	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-20#1436658 relevant thread
13:50	a111	Logged on 2016-03-20 15:27 phf: guile is the old warhorse of the "scheme in emacs!!" agenda, pretty sure even naggum ranted about it
13:51	asciilifeform	was massive, cancerous ball of autoconf and ???? even decade ago, aha.
13:51	BingoBoingo	"This industry has a race problem, how do we fix it?"
13:51	phf	well, it died from disinterest at some point, before the recent upswing of concerned citizens revived it as an excellent platform for cancer
13:53	BingoBoingo	Well, could also demechanize agriculture...
13:54	phf	riastradh and his type stuck to scheme48 and other sane, pre-eternal-sept implementations, professionals moved to plt scheme, so guile was looking to finally die. no such luck.
13:55	phf	how does it go, wgah'nagl fhtagn
13:56	asciilifeform	phf: naggum had a perl rant , re how it typifies fungus-growth media by supplying young cocklets with inexhaustible fountain of trivial breakages to 'cleverly' work around
13:56	asciilifeform	guile appears to fit this pattern
13:58	esthlos	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 << "Oh really? I never guessed he was an actor. Touche." if only tlp was around...
		↖
13:58	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: but since we're doing retrospective trilemas, here's an item by way of example : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SXexf/?raw=true
14:06	mircea_popescu	consider, incidentally, re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764101 the impact of the whole "how many ring binders" discussion ; obviously the "resistence of the medium" threads also appropos
14:06	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:05 asciilifeform: i can't speak for the good doctor newton. but asciilifeform specifically ~did~ target , for extermination, 'git' & related idiocies.
14:06	*	mircea_popescu realises that tmsr is principally an imperative programming language for actual intelligence (as opposed to the artificial kind) build around the "consider" statement.
14:07	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763715 << quite exactly.
14:07	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 15:10 ReadErr: well that wouldnt be any different than today
14:08	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763726 << also quit exactly ; which is why "dollar MUST be accepted in payment" is important enough to print on the damned things. without that...
14:08	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 15:14 asciilifeform: when you sell something for, e.g., dollar, you are in effect giving it away to the folks with the printing press.
14:09	BingoBoingo	Relatit to an earlier point http://trilema.com/2015/varia-varietatis-or-your-all-about-the-mollusc-guide/#footnote_4_62816
14:09	mircea_popescu	well, basically without that you end up with the femstate, as the next stop on the stupid tree. "can expropriate anything for public interest but cunt" results in the bizarro alt-world in usgstan.
14:10	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763735 << hey i never heard that before.
14:10	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 15:18 ReadErr: something just kinda clicked in my head
14:10	mircea_popescu	anyway, shall hafta town ; bbl!
14:13	phf	i was going to quote some choice naggum on guile, but it's 3 pages on xach's site, and it's very very unkind. interested parties are welcome to https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=guile
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14:18	BingoBoingo	http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/periplus-1.jpg
14:23	ben_vulpes	> i haven't tried this test yet << and you don't know that it only works on the feeble minded, literally anyone else is going to see exactly what you're doing and give the canned response that you want: "the patriarchy keeps women down and what is really called for is demoting and docking mens wages, and promoting science education for little girls, and generally eradicating the constructed gender binary so
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14:23	ben_vulpes	that we can all be treated truly equally at last long last"
14:24	ben_vulpes	>> Unfortunately, one participant was stuck on free speech side of the debate. << kawaiiiiiii neh
14:25	ben_vulpes	free speech fundamentalism is facism, because we sat around and wanked to the tune of logical programs and term equivalence, but skipped history of governmental organization 101
14:29	asciilifeform	haskellism isn't particularly different from other pseudosciences pushed by socialistoid scum
14:30	phf	ben_vulpes: oblig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hP6nOB1dc
14:33	ben_vulpes	phf: lol
14:33	ben_vulpes	k i guess i gotta see or read this now
14:37	asciilifeform	!!up rdfbdfg
14:37	deedbot	rdfbdfg voiced for 30 minutes.
14:39	phf	ben_vulpes: you've not seen american psycho? :o
14:39	phf	or read for that matter, though i'm not sure if i prefer the book in this case.
14:41	ben_vulpes	phf: i haven't watched much television or many movies full stop
14:51	ben_vulpes	trilema reviews better use of time mostly anyways
14:57	phf	ben_vulpes: there's actually an american pyscho trilema review!
14:58	ben_vulpes	yes i know, in ro
		↖
15:06	asciilifeform	in other 'news', it is apparently impossible to fit even ONE 4096-bit adder into an ice40-8k ( the largest in the series )
		↖ ↖ ↖ ↖
15:06	asciilifeform	sad.
15:07	asciilifeform	essentially, 'yes we put srams in the fabric but they can't shift, fuckyou'
15:10	asciilifeform	( likbez : all you need for the mythical holy grail, 'fast iron rsa', is a very large-bitnessed adder-cum-barrelshifter and a few storage registers that can be programmatically shuffled between. )
		↖
15:10	BingoBoingo	In other news from the price is right department: "The personal information of more than a billion Indians stored in the world's largest biometric database can be bought online for less than $8, according to an investigation by an Indian newspaper."
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15:11	asciilifeform	~all ffa ops can be reduced to 'add-with-possible-2scomplement' and 'shift'.
15:11	asciilifeform	( or rather, some finite sequence of these )
15:11	ReadErr	asciilifeform: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/I5HQ0yxC/templedongOSxxx.png
15:11	ReadErr	re: git
15:15	shinohai	Well he's right about the cripple programming part
15:15	asciilifeform	https://archive.is/FrBep << in other noose re intel crapola , in re the snowjob in particular
15:18	asciilifeform	ReadErr: forget 'programming'. cripples ~thinking~.
15:19	asciilifeform	ReadErr: when you 'download proggy from shithub', it is exactly same act as if you could, in a restaurant, order '1 cubic litre from public dump' as a dish. complete with whatever happens to be scopped out, used condoms, syringes, rotten vegetables, dead rats
15:19	asciilifeform	*scooped
15:19	ben_vulpes	btw how come nobody in the "stop rape culture!!11" world has done an indiestarter to build the vagina dentata from neal stephenson's snow crash?
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15:20	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: happened. is in the logs.
15:20	asciilifeform	2014 iirc
15:20	asciilifeform	( luckily for the idjits, was cynical scam, no actual teeth involved )
15:21	ReadErr	lol
15:22	ben_vulpes	hm i cannot find this wonder in the logs
15:30	phf	ben_vulpes: http://rense.com/general6/ouch.htm, https://rape-axe.com/, http://www.sapiensbryan.com/femdefence-a-protection-against-rape/
15:30	phf	i think the second one was in the logs
15:31	phf	yw
15:31	ben_vulpes	ty
15:31	ben_vulpes	http://www.femdefence.info/
15:31	ben_vulpes	free bible software download!
15:31	ben_vulpes	really going for the big tent there
15:34	trinque	https://rapeaxe.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/ra-large-3.jpg?w=1024 << lol what is this
15:34	trinque	"oh deary me, please don't rape me sir"
15:36	ben_vulpes	nearly tumblr rape gimpwork grade
15:37	ben_vulpes	https://rapeaxe.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/cropped-21.jpg also
15:41	trinque	clearly the definition of rape has by now expanded to "woman, shut the hell up!"
15:42	shinohai	You don't even have to speak, trinque .... telepathic rape occurs if you masturbate while thinking of her without her consent.
15:44	trinque	by that logic all of reddit just lost its virginity
15:44	shinohai	lel
15:46	ben_vulpes	eye contact also offensive
15:47	ben_vulpes	that is one of the nicest things about this little town that i've moved to, all of the girls make eye contact and act feminine
15:52	danielpbarron	!!up jpxe
15:52	deedbot	jpxe voiced for 30 minutes.
15:52	danielpbarron	use this one https://ghostbin.com/paste/v6ut9/raw
15:53	danielpbarron	!!rate jpxe 1 aspiring ADA coder i found in the l0de chan
15:53	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vvqhq/?raw=true
15:57	danielpbarron	jpxe, ok you can voice yourself by typing /msg deedbot !!up
15:57	danielpbarron	and it'll last till you disconnect rather than 30 mins
15:58	jpxe	understood
15:58	danielpbarron	there's a bunch of ongoing projects in here, and ADA is a prefered language
15:59	danielpbarron	you can search the logs for all sorts of references
15:59	ben_vulpes	so jpxe what sorta adastuffs are you working on
16:01	danielpbarron	he was asking for a job so i asked if he had tits, he didn't, so i said do you know lisp or ada
16:02	danielpbarron	i guess he's gonna learn himself some ada, or lisp if anyone wants. feel free to instruct him
16:02	asciilifeform	start him with the obvious starting point ?
16:02	ben_vulpes	jpxe: start at http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913
16:03	ben_vulpes	and familiarize yourself with v ( http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system ), read logs for six months...
16:07	jpxe	ben_vulpes: There a reason the first site doesn't use SSL?
16:08	danielpbarron	we don't do https here
16:08	danielpbarron	if you need something secure, do RSA
16:08	asciilifeform	!#s ssl
16:08	a111	589 results for "ssl", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ssl
16:08	asciilifeform	jpxe ^ see also.
16:10	asciilifeform	and, more generally speaking, jhvh1 ,
16:10	asciilifeform	!#s pki
16:10	a111	90 results for "pki", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pki
16:13	asciilifeform	err, jpxe ^
16:14	ben_vulpes	jpxe: ssl is shitty shit from commie joo empire
16:14	asciilifeform	( this is almost possibly the first litmus for a n00b : will he read logs when told to ? show symptoms of actually having done so, and learne d? )
16:15	asciilifeform	jpxe: see also trilema, e.g. http://trilema.com/2017/lets-revisit-the-google-is-irrelevant-discussion/#comment-123791 .
16:15	phf	speaking of ssl everywhere, discovered this lulzy wontfix today, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436200
16:16	phf	a forced popup that warns you that you're sending to http from https, but there's no about:config to disable the popup. 9 years of "ffs put a boolean in configs, you fucks"
		↖
16:25	ben_vulpes	in other lols, my 1933 babar reprint just arrived and it is a delightful paen to colonialism
16:25	ben_vulpes	2017's "a is for activist" -- b&. 1933's french colonial propaganda -- celebrated.
16:34	phf	a is for aparheid, old boy, fancy a cop of tea?
16:35	ben_vulpes	wot wot
16:44	deedbot	http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/04/eucrypt-chapter-4-random-prime-number-generator/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 4: Random Prime Number Generator
16:57	phf	^ http://btcbase.org/patches/eucrypt_ch4_rpng
16:59	diana_coman	yay, thank you phf ! that was super-quick
17:05	phf	yw, the process is becoming streamlined. next i need to make it pick up just new patches, rather than refresh the whole lot
		~ 24 minutes ~
17:29	asciilifeform	oh hey neato
17:30	asciilifeform	'top 2 bits and bottom bit are ALWAYS 1!' << asciilifeform still doesn't get why to weld the next-to-highest
		↖
17:36	ben_vulpes	!up vap0r
17:36	ben_vulpes	!!up vap0r
17:36	deedbot	vap0r voiced for 30 minutes.
17:36	vap0r	////// [ HOLY ASS FUCKIN THANKS FOR THE VOICE deedbot !! ] \\\
17:36	vap0r	o>
17:36	vap0r	thx
17:36	ben_vulpes	np who are you
17:37	vap0r	saw dpbs msg on my youtube link
17:37	vap0r	im vap0r came here bcuz of dpb
17:37	danielpbarron	oh are you efnet news guy?
17:37	vap0r	ya
17:37	danielpbarron	hahah cool
17:37	danielpbarron	got a RSA key?
17:37	vap0r	bandy here
17:37	vap0r	im on phone but gimme a bit and ill get u one
17:37	danielpbarron	well get it to deedbot
17:39	vap0r	cool
17:41	danielpbarron	https://youtu.be/tNXyichewJw << the link btw. i'm mentioned a little past half way
		~ 17 minutes ~
17:59	asciilifeform	btw diana_coman , http://www.loper-os.org/pub/longlines.jpg << esp in light of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763999
17:59	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 17:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at some point phf will implement a wordwrap ; which can be done for browser window.
18:00	asciilifeform	some of diana_coman's lines are even longer than 120col
18:00	asciilifeform	comments, i suppose, can be reflowed. but CODE DOES NOT REFLOW, it destroys indentation
18:01	asciilifeform	why not stick to the ancestral 80col, folx??
		↖
18:07	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764224 >> some very pertinent material, e.g. https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3071377465763593@naggum.no.html ,
18:07	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 19:13 phf: i was going to quote some choice naggum on guile, but it's 3 pages on xach's site, and it's very very unkind. interested parties are welcome to https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=guile
18:08	asciilifeform	>> '...when I look at Scheme programs that try to do more than trivial tasks, or at Scheme systems that try to give people a framework to work in, I get the "perl experience" -- heaps of ugly but useful hacks to get some short-term job done. seems to me that the flip side of the "only the most elegant are admitted" argument is that there is no lower bound on the ugliness of what is _not_ admitted, yet necessary to get there in pract
18:08	asciilifeform	ice, and so anything goes.'
18:12	asciilifeform	https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129441516179845@naggum.no.html << relatedly. >> 'the problem with retrofitting a Lisp or Scheme onto Unix is that Unix really is a C programming environment, and using the C mindset when building Lisp or Scheme applications or systems on top of it loses. the same is true of any other programming language with an environment that takes the role of Unix for C.'
18:13	asciilifeform	( the latter discussion was about , approx, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678490 )
18:13	a111	Logged on 2017-07-02 12:50 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678460 << how about we roll the boot time ( to shell!! ) of your cmachinekernel, how about?
18:16	asciilifeform	and, to round off the archaeological dig, https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129467830883882@naggum.no.html >> 'the programming environment model in Unix is an imitation of the Lisp machine, and the way it is implemented is through processes and inter-process communication instead of function calls. functions in the Lisp heap are programs on disk in the Unix model. the optimizations that made Unix able to survive this incredible
18:16	asciilifeform	inefficiency are bad for Lisp, which would have done it a lot better had it been in control, but GUILE doesn't do it any better. GUILE combines the worst of both worlds, in an attempt to bring the best of one world to a world where it doesn't really belong. on top of this, it's Scheme, and it's expensive to run, there's so much wrong with it that nobody can use it without fixing some part of it. so, it's going to be a winner, but
18:16	asciilifeform	a real Lisp world would be so much better. however, a real Lisp world cannot win as long as GUILE is the image people have of a Lisp environment, just like Lisp has suffered tremendously from the Scheme people's insistence that Scheme as taught to college students is what they should expect from Lisp.'
18:29	diana_coman	asciilifeform, tbh lines chopped tend to bother me; I repeatedly tried (years/ages ago) the whole thing with 80cols, quick to read etc but... it still bothers me, what can I do; that being said, I see there long comments line not code; possibly some printfs in the tests that might be long I suppose
18:31	asciilifeform	more or less all prog langs give a clean way to multilineize strings
18:32	asciilifeform	( rather than arbitrary 'chop' )
18:33	diana_coman	multi-line is still chop the way my brain reads
18:33	diana_coman	I do try to keep otherwise lines relatively short mainly because no reason for very long but that in code not in comments, admitted; and certainly not with some strict 80 char limit per se, true
18:33	*	asciilifeform as you can see from the pic, uses vertical displays. and when reading serious proggy , tends to send it to printer ! which - guesswhat - doesn't know how to reflow ( and if it did, would mangle indent and create unreadable soup )
18:36	diana_coman	hm
18:37	asciilifeform	diana_coman: i am one of those weirdos who still does a large amt of his programming -- and the bulk of his code-reading -- on paper.
18:38	diana_coman	I do a lot of code-reading WITH paper + pencil; but that means more writing than printing really
18:38	asciilifeform	writing yes
18:39	asciilifeform	generally my page will in the end have ~equal area of pencilmark and printerola
		↖
18:39	asciilifeform	(at least.)
18:41	diana_coman	and paper+writing a lot before any need for keyboard, but I still get annoyed at multi-line stuff that is ... one thing otherwise, ugh
18:41	*	diana_coman has just cleared desk again getting rid of a pile of papers used for this ch4
18:42	asciilifeform	and speaking of this, asciilifeform is almost certainly doomed to properly texize ffa in the end. there are so few things more loathesome than reading MECHANICALLY REFLOWED code. whether line flow or page breaks.
18:42	diana_coman	basically this would make some sense only if writing code in columns pretty much newspaper style I suppose
18:43	asciilifeform	publishers used to pay professionals to do this. and it ~needed~ doing. whereas today one will routinely find 'technical' b00kz that look exactly like microshit-'word' printouts bound and covered, with line and page breaks scattered entirely arbitrarily
18:44	asciilifeform	it is very grating on the nerves, to read such crapola
18:45	phf	in a proper program 80 col is an indicator of s/n, density and all kinds of lateral properties, that can be communicated between professionals, because you can know ahead of time, what you're dealing with by shape, and have a rough estimate for the token count
		↖ ↖
18:46	asciilifeform	^^^
18:46	asciilifeform	it makes the 'loc' metric meaningful AT ALL to begin with, for starters !
18:47	diana_coman	I suspect all of it, one way or the other IS a matter of habit really; it might even be that I simply programmed overall too little compared to reading non-programming (programmed at school+uni+few years after that and then ran for the hills until I got drawn back because eulora)
18:47	asciilifeform	iirc diana_coman started as a mathematician , neh ?
18:47	asciilifeform	!!up Matthew
18:47	deedbot	Matthew voiced for 30 minutes.
18:47	Matthew	tyvm
18:48	asciilifeform	who might you be, Matthew ?
18:48	Matthew	im Matthew from efnet news
18:48	phf	it is habit, and convention and all kinds of easily iconoclastible things. for example i can usually recognize a proper lisp program by its shape, but those are usually written by people who have established those conventions to begin with
18:48	Matthew	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNXyichewJw
18:49	asciilifeform	phf: aha, i can always and immediately spot somebody who did not use slime or equivalent autoindenter
18:49	Matthew	thank for allowing me to spam this podcast
18:49	diana_coman	asciilifeform, no, not really; studied at polytechnic uni Bucharest, automation and computers i.e. electrical engineer; followed with data mining and that got totally fed up after "software engineering"
18:49	Matthew	is daniel around
18:49	Matthew	i wantd to talk to him
18:49	asciilifeform	danielpbarron ?
18:49	Matthew	yes
18:50	asciilifeform	Matthew: hang around for a few hrs, he will probably come back
18:50	Matthew	ill hang around forever
18:50	Matthew	you are stuck with me now
18:50	asciilifeform	Matthew: if you are looking for something danielpbarron said some time earlier, there is the log , http://btcbase.org/log
18:51	danielpbarron	Matthew, what's up
18:51	asciilifeform	diana_coman: neato.
18:59	asciilifeform	from what asciilifeform has seen, life is often quite hard for actual-engineers who end up in programmerdom. sorta like shalamov's observation re folx from baltics, not only better-nutritioned and taller to begin with ( by itself gives higher 'idle rpm' ) but whose daily life was 'farther from gulag' , starved sooner than ru folx ( in particular rural )
19:02	asciilifeform	( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
		↖
19:06	Matthew	danielpbarron: i was just trying to get some free cyrpto
19:06	Matthew	and hear about a church
19:06	diana_coman	heh, add to that the fact that I specifically got interested in computers initially for the very promise (to my mind at the time at least) that they are... reliable; because programmable, see? such silly 17-yo mea
19:06	asciilifeform	the free cyrpto is three doors down, Matthew
19:06	danielpbarron	Matthew, register your RSA key with deedbot
19:06	Matthew	idk how
19:06	Matthew	forget the free coin
19:06	danielpbarron	"tsk"
19:06	Matthew	tell me about the church
19:07	Matthew	i heard about u on EfnetNews 47
19:07	Matthew	also spoke to u for a second the other night
19:07	Matthew	in #efnetnews
19:07	danielpbarron	well i don't wanna bore the channel with stuff you can easily learn from atruechurch.info
19:07	danielpbarron	i was never in that channel, btw
19:07	asciilifeform	diana_coman: picture, if su survived, you might be designing votingcircuit cpu for e.g. 'buran'
19:07	phf	wut, half the horrible code i've seen is from actual engineers. usually unstructructured reams of potato code like they were taught to write matlab or fortran
19:07	Matthew	'dpb
19:07	Matthew	'dpb' was an imposter ?
19:08	danielpbarron	i'm dpb on efnet, but i was never in that channel
19:08	asciilifeform	phf: lemme guess, their beards, were not white ?
19:08	Matthew	where did i speak to u at
19:08	danielpbarron	lrh chan prolly
19:09	Matthew	no
19:09	Matthew	i dont go there
19:09	Matthew	oh well it dont matter
19:09	diana_coman	phf might be onto something in that functional programming was not mandatory for instance; I took the course because I wanted to but I could have had no idea of it at all even, easily
19:09	shinohai	From the dept. of Intel related lulzfest: http://archive.is/wvW7m
19:09	asciilifeform	diana_coman: consider, not only 'programmable' but theoretically the only 'indestructible' machine yet built, where you can (at least in principle) replace ALL of the wear parts without stopping
19:10	phf	their beards (and lack of) were of wide wariety. sure there are hypothetical ee's from 70s who switched to programming micros in the 80s who write god tier C, but bulk of them is not it
19:10	asciilifeform	shinohai: prettygreat
19:10	diana_coman	fwiw I take asciilifeform to mean the engineering approach vs current "programming" approach; that has little to do with "engineer" diploma or not,sadly
19:12	asciilifeform	right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
		↖
19:13	Matthew	http://trilema.com/2016/cia-factbook-the-most-serene-republic/
19:13	Matthew	you guys wrote this yourself right
		↖
19:14	asciilifeform	Matthew: that's mircea_popescu's www.
19:14	Matthew	oh
19:14	diana_coman	where his very self tends to write too, yes
19:15	Matthew	ok fair enough
19:17	diana_coman	asciilifeform, theoretically yes; at that time though I did not even go that far and it still proved to be wishful thinking
19:18	diana_coman	shinohai, lol!
19:19	shinohai	"We did it reddit!" in 3...
		~ 16 minutes ~
19:35	mircea_popescu	dun dun dun!
19:40	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763733 << consider the concept of "turkey dollars" ; http://trilema.com/2012/lets-dig-a-little-deeper-into-this-entire-deflation-problem/
19:40	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 15:18 ReadErr: hmm
19:44	mircea_popescu	i don't get it, what else is there ? usg wrote its fanfic itself too.
19:45	mircea_popescu	imagine the lulz, "circumspect" reporter going into white house alt-reality distortion field festival, "hmm... you guys came up with this shit yourselves, right ?"
19:45	mircea_popescu	yeah, i expect so. certainly they didn't go about collecting best-kim-ung's oppinions.
19:50	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763745 << /me dutifully follows, and duly falls upon "2) What was not implemented until recently was functions returning unconstrained arrays. This is a very tricky thing to do, as I'll describe in a moment. The week before Tri-Ada, I added a temporary, kludgy implementation to GNAT. About the only thing it had to say for itself is that it worked, but it creates serious memory leaks. It
19:50	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 15:33 asciilifeform: !~later tell spyked http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2026&cpage=1#comment-18564
19:50	mircea_popescu	is not intended as a final implementation." (the original 80wrap braindamage has been fixed). I CAN SCARCELY APPREHEND ETC
19:52	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763753 << right, "fascist" is "what pantsuit calls non-pantsuit". ye olde http://trilema.com/2013/racists-and-socialists/ story.
19:52	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 15:55 phf: heh "Classification of Dugin as a fascist is justified, regardless of the fact that today the MGU professor frequently speaks not as a primitive ethnocentrist or biological racist. (...) By «fascist» we understand the «generic» meaning of the concept, used in comparatory research of contemporary right-wing extremism by such well-known historians-comparativists [etc.]
19:53	mircea_popescu	aaand in other "ugly teeth run in the family" news, http://78.media.tumblr.com/2620b35ac849769e1e1c6e8b9ad7416e/tumblr_my5xgeZoPf1rmux9jo1_1280.jpg
20:03	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the secondary stack thing worx correctly in modern-day gnat. but i banned it. ( because it makes reading disasmed binariolade harder; reasoning about the semantics of the latter -- also harder; and consumes very scarce, on small embedded chips, memory , imho needlessly )
		↖
20:04	mircea_popescu	but WHY would someone involved DO THIS. it's like dentist going "and here's a squirrel i put wooden teeth into. they were plywood and didn't work very well, it's not intended for geriatric care"
20:04	mircea_popescu	motherfucker, why the pointless animal cruelty! not like you didn't know plywood dun work for this application.
20:04	mircea_popescu	WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR BRAIN
20:04	asciilifeform	presumably was done to implement 100% of the standard.
20:05	mircea_popescu	standard had memorly leaks in it ?
20:05	asciilifeform	which , as written , requires secondarystackism
20:05	asciilifeform	it isn't a leak, as such, isn't a heap
20:05	shinohai	Comedy that ben_vulpes might enjoy: http://archive.is/9gkfT "If we see more female figures on traffic lights that might also have a positive impact on changing the way we view the world."
20:05	mircea_popescu	now THAT is an example of "item you should not have to fix, you should not make in first place". no memory leak ever was naturally occuring. it's not like indigestion, it's like nails hammered into skull.
20:06	ben_vulpes	> memorly << prett good coinage
20:06	mircea_popescu	shinohai maybe if young and topless.
20:06	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes :p
20:06	asciilifeform	again secondarystack is not implemented as an open-ended (unboundedly growing) item
20:06	mircea_popescu	so ?
20:06	asciilifeform	in any adatron that i know of
20:06	asciilifeform	so it is incorrect to say 'memory leak'.
20:06	mircea_popescu	man's own words.
20:06	mircea_popescu	i quoed.
20:06	asciilifeform	just like it isn't ebola, or tin pest.
20:07	ben_vulpes	shinohai: i'll put it on the budget lolz shelf
20:07	asciilifeform	oh hah he does describe how his managed to leak.
20:07	mircea_popescu	"it worked, but it created serious memory leaks" is, of and by itself, diagnosable string. not even indicative, dispositive outright!
20:07	asciilifeform	( failed to unwind the stack )
20:07	asciilifeform	so mircea_popescu has it
20:08	asciilifeform	( though will point out, consequences of this type of leak, is early death of the proggy, rather than 'ballons into red dwarf' a la prb or firefox )
20:08	mircea_popescu	it's not even "i wrote something that DIDNT WORK". that, is one thing. here, he wrote something, he evaluated it as "works", BUT.
20:08	ben_vulpes	what is with these retards and their untestable hypotheses anyways, "this might blablabla the whateverwhatever". nigga can you not design an experiment? or might it be that the necessary experiments are actually impossible given the impossibility of baking metrics and disambiguating confounding factors?
20:08	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: ~whole field consists of 'it works, BUT...'
20:08	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform what concerns me is the man's self-evaluator. "i went to battle with the electric fence ; i won, but..."
20:08	ben_vulpes	in other news, lowtax state of wa remarkably efficient in stark comparison to hightax state of or.
20:09	asciilifeform	and i find it especially infuriating when they slither into islands of sanity like ada
20:09	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform mostly because nobody says ~above.
20:09	asciilifeform	and see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764397 .
20:09	a111	Logged on 2018-01-05 00:02 asciilifeform: ( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
20:09	mircea_popescu	hang on i'm working through them monsterlogs.
20:11	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes it could also be that there's so much metrage of dead air to fill and so very little to fill it with. "this may be an entertaining talkshow ; it isn't, of course, but... WSOD!!!"
20:17	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764095 << scheuristic, ie, the schelling heuristic. like a point, except a heuristic. btw, is the point clear there ? not that "epicycles weren't abolished", but that "the substantial difference between the real item, ie, epicycles, which were so abolished, and the pantsuitology item, ie clothespin, which never existed, is exactly of the nature of defeated-enemy vs defeated-strawman" ?
20:17	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but now merge these factual observations, which are correct BUT SUPERFICIAL, with your own knowledge on and around the scheuristic point of "coffin liners".
20:18	mircea_popescu	it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
		↖
20:18	mircea_popescu	whereas nobody can argue for clothespins.
20:18	asciilifeform	the pantsuit picture is then presumably that somebody 'sat down to impose epicycles' ( in the spirit of 'newton sat down to...' ) ?
20:18	mircea_popescu	no, but rather than talking of the genuine item, ie, epicycles, they talk of entirely fictitious item, ie, "human rights".
20:19	mircea_popescu	here's a point of discussion : in the palace of versailles, the desicated excrement in the corners of the hallways was swept away once a week.
20:19	mircea_popescu	this is uninteresting until you stop to consider that the "fascist" ancien regime (that's the word you'd use today, right ?) did NOT have the fucking ability to deny people taking a shit when they felt like taking a shit.
20:19	mircea_popescu	seems to me a fucking human right, this. neh ?
20:19	asciilifeform	not that it's a bad example, but 'human rights' is 'easy' bunkum , unlikely to be confused with a physically-existing item except by the deliberately mendacious folks and their useful idiots
20:20	mircea_popescu	or is it the case that we pick and choose, and who "we" is matters, and so on etcetera.
20:20	mircea_popescu	what fucking human rights. they're not a kind of epicycles, they're a kind of jokicicles.
20:20	asciilifeform	more dangerous is the gabriel_laddel-style confusion, 'i dun need no book-larnin', classical mechanics is for squares, i'ma straight to genius and discovery'
20:20	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform now find "alien idea" device applied to physically existing item.
20:21	mircea_popescu	(ftr, "epicycles" here is a categorical term to describe an array of fixes attempted to bring ptolemaic system astrology in line with observable reality)
20:21	asciilifeform	here's a trivial corpse of an epicycle straight from asciilifeform's desk : normalization in bignummery
20:21	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i wish to see text where this item is called "alien problem".
20:22	asciilifeform	the memory gymnastics in mpi. and 'for your convenience, we will package the defective transistors separately!11' , i'll call it here
20:22	asciilifeform	'alien problem'. done?
20:22	mircea_popescu	what, ex post facto like that ?
20:22	asciilifeform	the shoe fits, neh ?
20:22	mircea_popescu	fine, you rescued what was previously 100% pantsuit wank into a 99.(9)% item.
20:22	asciilifeform	none of those problems exist when you fix the bitness.
20:22	mircea_popescu	ARE YOU HAPPY NAO
20:22	asciilifeform	lolk
20:23	asciilifeform	and i'll point out that orig term was not coined in pantsuitistan, but by ilkka k, a surprisingly sane mathematics d00d
20:23	mircea_popescu	anyway, this is EXACTLY what drives the "toxic fax" wank : that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764490
20:23	a111	Logged on 2018-01-05 01:18 mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
20:23	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> diana_coman: picture, if su survived, you might be designing votingcircuit cpu for e.g. 'buran' << In veintenary switches!
20:23	asciilifeform	lol
20:24	mircea_popescu	so following recursively down the rabbit hole (see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-31#1761834 ) it then follows that this being a problem "they shouldn't have to have" etcetera.
20:24	a111	Logged on 2017-12-31 16:39 mircea_popescu: don't lie, because if you do you form a sort of mental habit that will prevent you from ever inventing anything.
20:24	asciilifeform	pretty much every boy thinks that the maths he hasn't learned yet, 'is epicycle'
20:24	asciilifeform	!#s fermat crackpots
20:24	a111	0 results for "fermat crackpots", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fermat%20crackpots
20:24	asciilifeform	hmm
20:24	asciilifeform	!#s elementary fermat
20:24	a111	5 results for "elementary fermat", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=elementary%20fermat
20:24	asciilifeform	^ see also.
20:25	mircea_popescu	it'd also be RATHER FUCKING SHOCKING just how much intelligence is needed to merely maintain the border between "tru science" and "discredited paradigm".
20:25	asciilifeform	( e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1679837 )
20:25	a111	Logged on 2017-07-07 01:17 asciilifeform: wiles, see, 'doesn't count' because 'too long and uses things not taught in kindergarten and wtf is this'
20:25	mircea_popescu	exactly because "technology helps the theives too, is policework-neutral overall" phenomenon.
20:26	mircea_popescu	"oh, DO WE STILL HAVE TO DO THIS ?!?!?! IN 2018 ?!?! EPICYCLES ?!?!?". gimme a break, you can't light a fucking lightbulb.
		↖
20:27	asciilifeform	the saving grace is that it is not , in practice, usually difficult to distinguish the folx who are at least earnestly shooting for maxwellization ( and prepared to acknowledge failure ; THEIR ~personal~ failure ) from the gabriel_laddels
20:28	mircea_popescu	im not even sure about that much.
20:28	mircea_popescu	it is easy to come up with a partition one can live with himself.
20:28	mircea_popescu	it is notoriously difficult for fathers to pick competent sons for daughters / stalins to pick competent successors etc.
20:28	mircea_popescu	s/sons/husbands/ w/e.
20:29	asciilifeform	the litmus asciilifeform lives with is, roughly: show him a pertinent item made of 'maths he hasn't learned'; is response 'hmm, lemme disappear for a week into my study and come back' or ... 'I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO !111'
20:29	mircea_popescu	maybe.
20:29	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it is especially difficult for fathers with... nothing to pick from
20:30	mircea_popescu	this is the case at least 50% of the time throughout history.
20:30	asciilifeform	'to pull rabbit from a hat, he must be actually in the hat'
20:30	mircea_popescu	consider the case of "evil" scientists that were WRONG
20:30	mircea_popescu	such as you know, "please wash your hands" doctor.
20:30	asciilifeform	pretty good example
20:30	mircea_popescu	no shortage.
20:30	asciilifeform	aha
20:31	mircea_popescu	yes, heuristics exist, and can be used. that's about it.
20:31	asciilifeform	that's the only it.
20:31	asciilifeform	the gods only dropped heuristics, not revelations.
20:32	mircea_popescu	now then, back to the issue : i suspect "alien problem" is a worse than useless heuristic, in the exact sense "web metric" are a worse than useless management aid.
20:32	mircea_popescu	in that it does little more than veneer bias into some kind of dysfunctional reification.
20:33	asciilifeform	what's the dysfunctional veneering in saying to the fat-tard 'stop having become fat' rather than 'here is how to rework train seats everywhere' ?
20:33	mircea_popescu	the epicycles, before removal, a) had a history whcih b) was understood by the removers. the "alien problem" is how lazy jwz say "i don't want to read", by and large.
20:34	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there's a difference between poet ignoring language convention and junior high "innocent bystander who happens to be black" ignoring same.
20:35	asciilifeform	'alien problem' is how one says to the folx who maneuver themselves into a dead end, and who very much were architects of their own misfortune, that their problems are NOT 'the problem of all mankind' and that to construct for them 'solutions', such as they would accept, is harmful to the sane
20:35	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the train seats issue is particularly iffy, considering how japanese did rework in 70s.
20:35	mircea_popescu	60s, w/e.
20:36	asciilifeform	this is again the 'i can tell gabriel_laddel from maxwell' . asciilifeform , and mircea_popescu , and any sane folx can trivially distinguish 'less malnutrited japanese' from 'mcfood-eater' transformations
20:36	asciilifeform	this is the wine-with-chickenshit-subtracted from yesterday's thread.
20:37	mircea_popescu	you just restated http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704268
20:37	a111	Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
20:37	asciilifeform	it's true, whether or not i restate it, lol
20:38	mircea_popescu	well, so then, "alien problem is how an authority may choose to communicate the excommunication of a class of activity" lel.
20:39	mircea_popescu	but in any case, i'm satisfied this ass was well beaten to pulp.
20:39	asciilifeform	it is that. but also imho a reasonable engineering term. it describes the engineering equivalent of obesity
20:39	asciilifeform	aite
20:40	BingoBoingo	You know who loves making fun of the Obese: Latinos
20:40	mircea_popescu	btw, you ever read tiganiada ? did i ask this before ?
20:40	mircea_popescu	i suspect at level where might well enjoy it
20:40	asciilifeform	it's on the list, from old thread
20:40	asciilifeform	not yet eaten by asciilifeform , nope
20:41	mircea_popescu	ah yes, cool.
20:41	asciilifeform	asciilifeform currently reading various fairytales.
20:42	mircea_popescu	some good stuff there.
20:42	asciilifeform	oohyea
20:43	*	asciilifeform just had quite interesting conv with pet re the harsh 'cold equations' light of 'fefeleaga' vs the socialisto-gunk of 'les miserables'
20:43	mircea_popescu	ikr ?
20:44	mircea_popescu	"human rights" hurr. nobody reading that thought "o hey, how great, old woman gets ground into the dirt". HOWEVER, the difference between sane person and moderntard is that they also didn't go "HEY, PIXIE DUST!!! MAKE ALL BETTER!!!"
20:44	mircea_popescu	what fucking better.
20:44	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
20:44	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15114.99, vol: 14781.61107198 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15077.0, vol: 44836.08867496 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 15209.0, vol: 3536.72083144 \| Volume-weighted last average: 15093.2839045
20:46	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764183 << alan kay is actually not so greatly regarded here ; or at least by me. certainly not his later meta stuff.
20:46	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:41 esthlos: guys like alan kay push a certain political narrative, but it doesnt add up
20:49	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764186 << so i dutifully follow, and i duly end up on " I have a new interview question, and you can have it too: "The industry has a gender balance problem. Why is this?" [ed: see postscript]"
20:49	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:43 esthlos: oh fun, the blog of the guile lead: http://wingolog.org/
20:50	mircea_popescu	motherfucker... NOBODY CARES. seriouyslty now. it makes exactly zero difference for any practical purpose "in the industry" whether you chain up all the women and sell them off to martians.
20:50	mircea_popescu	all these fucktards "being involved" in various topics through insistently discussing what they read in hustler. jacking off doesn't make you a beautician/car mechanic/architect/dentist/etcetera. it may make you blind, apparently, to the world around, but whatevs.
20:51	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764187 << yeah, like http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/privilege-linguists.jpg
20:51	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 asciilifeform: why am i reading about e.g. '...ignorance about the lived experience of women compiler writers, say, can lead to hurtful behavior...' ?
20:53	mircea_popescu	http://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-question#cd7ce15868f2195baa8586069393901a4b2e182e for the record.
20:54	mircea_popescu	!#s andy wingo
20:54	a111	0 results for "andy wingo", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=andy%20wingo
20:54	mircea_popescu	shocking.
20:55	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764188 << why dehyphenate at all ?
20:55	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 phf: esthlos: reflecting on it a bit, tricky part of k&p for plain text is de-hyphenating for reflow
20:55	mircea_popescu	i do not wish to see de-hyphenate or chumpa-tron split up.
20:59	mircea_popescu	!~google wgah'nagl fhtagn
20:59	jhvh1	mircea_popescu: Citations:ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah ' nagl fhtagn ...: <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:ph%2527nglui_mglw%2527nafh_Cthulhu_R%2527lyeh_wgah%2527nagl_fhtagn>; ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah ' nagl fhtagn - Wiktionary: <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ph%2527nglui_mglw%2527nafh_Cthulhu_R%2527lyeh_wgah%2527nagl_fhtagn>; Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah ' nagl fhtagn - (1 more message)
21:02	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764210 << kinda unfortunate he disappeared yeah.
21:02	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 18:58 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 << "Oh really? I never guessed he was an actor. Touche." if only tlp was around...
21:07	hanbot	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 << lol "what did you run into?" "an article about rape." oh, THAT one.... about as useful a criterion for a trilema article by now as "has sentences" and "occasionally punctuated"
21:07	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: but since we're doing retrospective trilemas, here's an item by way of example : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SXexf/?raw=true
21:08	mircea_popescu	yeah, trilema not a very good field for the "oh, ima be vague" approach. it's called trilema because it has at least three of everything!
21:10	mircea_popescu	"intelligence is only a labor-saving device. less intelligent people can in principle create just as elegant solutions, but it would normally take them more effort to get there." <<< ajhaha NO! FUCKING! WAY!
21:10	phf	why hyphenate or why dehyphenate? the first is not necessary but reduces the value of k&s since basically there's very little play available with monospaced spaces
21:11	mircea_popescu	phf but hyphens are fundamentally different from spaces. the two are not semantically equivalent.
21:11	mircea_popescu	this is like starting a new paragraph on double \n and also on double l.
21:12	phf	no no, the reason why i bring up space is that you basically have two things that k&s can play with: hyphenation and elastic spaces. the two are balanced in some magical way
21:13	mircea_popescu	anyway, re the naggum quote above : a better statement would be to say that every problem comes with an iq functional which could be approximated as a (x-fiq)^3 + b(x-fiq) ; the a, b and fiq are parameters of the problem, the x is where the solver's iq goes. if his iq is lower than the fiq required by the problem, his "work" comes out negative.
21:13	mircea_popescu	the rules for adding multiple xn together are more complex than straight addition, but not complex enough to manage a positive out of negatives.
21:14	phf	when you eliminate hyphenation as a concern, you're just left with elastic spaces, but you don't have those in monospace plain text. you just have full sized spaces, but their granularity is so high as to be almost useless
21:15	mircea_popescu	phf a 120 col line will contain a number of words distriburted around 23.7 ; this means your spaces being elastic works to some degree. i will hold up trilema as an example of this, would you say elastic spaces are not working for it ?
21:18	phf	elastic spaces in this case means variable width spaces. you can't have that in plain text. you can either have foo_bar or foo__bar or ...
21:19	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764226 << either that or "either you produce a naked female employee on her knees right this second, or else your fucktarded shenanigans just cost you a 580% salary increase for being a bunch of repugnant scum"
21:19	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 19:23 ben_vulpes: > i haven't tried this test yet << and you don't know that it only works on the feeble minded, literally anyone else is going to see exactly what you're doing and give the canned response that you want: "the patriarchy keeps women down and what is really called for is demoting and docking mens wages, and promoting science education for little girls, and generally eradicating the constructed gender binary so
21:19	mircea_popescu	phf do i have to screenshot this ?
21:19	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2017/time-to-get-out-by-the-way/ << third paragraph, 1st line space is 160% of 2nd line
21:22	phf	might need a screenshot, i'm not seeing that on my machine (or possibly also being dense)
21:22	mircea_popescu	(upon actual measurement, notrly, 1st 368 to 381 vs 2nd 186 to 197 vs 3rd 232 to 242 ; so 13, 11, 10 etc. )
21:23	mircea_popescu	phf http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/trilema-spaces.png ?
21:24	mircea_popescu	(last line 661 to 669, so 8 ; from 13 to 8 the variation indeed is 160% so hah!
21:27	phf	right, but you can't do that in plain text file
21:27	mircea_popescu	phf incidentally, which 3 pages did you mean ? xach search returns like 50
21:27	mircea_popescu	phf who the fuck sez ?
21:27	mircea_popescu	(+if my articles aren't plaintext what are they bonus)
21:28	*	asciilifeform ended up reading all 3 pgs ( of results, plural ! )
21:28	asciilifeform	much goodstuff
21:28	mircea_popescu	it is, but i was curious re what he meant.
21:28	phf	oh oh, algo (and the machinery) being discussed is for hard line reflow. (you run M-q in emacs and it'll reflow the paragraph for you with newlines introduced)
21:29	mircea_popescu	ah
21:29	mircea_popescu	bs.
21:29	phf	:D
21:29	mircea_popescu	the day i want the machine to write text for me ima just buy all the girls strapons and they can fuck each other too
21:29	phf	write text?
21:30	mircea_popescu	while i watch mad max the future or whatever the fuck i'd do in this weird crapsack world
21:30	mircea_popescu	phf yes.
21:30	phf	whyyyyy
21:30	mircea_popescu	i dunno, you want it to stuff \n in there for you.
21:30	mircea_popescu	why not also the interjection "you know ?" or i guess "mon"
21:30	asciilifeform	fwiw i linebreakulate by hand
21:31	mircea_popescu	me too. ONCE PER FUCKING PARAGRAPH.
21:31	mircea_popescu	but i guess if emacs feels the sentence needs more random gibberish instilled who am i to not permit it.
21:31	asciilifeform	( to 80col. when writing proggy. to mircea_popescutronic 1 per para, when writing human. )
21:31	asciilifeform	proggy ain't reflowable.
21:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you seriously \ out oo-cpp gnarl to 80 ?
21:32	mircea_popescu	like, 40 line procedure calls and shit ?
21:32	asciilifeform	i dun write those, wtf
21:32	asciilifeform	alienproblem!11
21:32	mircea_popescu	oh oh oh I SEE HOW IT IS
21:32	asciilifeform	srsly why
21:32	mircea_popescu	what if one dayu you have to read cpp videocard stuff ? what THEN ?
21:32	mircea_popescu	special pleading city over here.
21:33	asciilifeform	where is this, why not show
21:33	mircea_popescu	i tell you if the shit was multiple lines per line i would just exudate my lungs through the skinpores on my back out of sheer fury.
21:34	asciilifeform	whereas if i find myself EVER horizontalscrolling, insta-barf
21:34	asciilifeform	and if i can't print it without indent-destroying reflow, or use of tiny letters, ditto
21:35	phf	well, luckily mp doesn't produce v patches, so this a non-issue
21:35	*	phf ducks
21:35	asciilifeform	lol
21:35	asciilifeform	srsly non80col proggy has burden of justifying the 'wtf, why', just like nonstandard railroad gauge
21:36	mircea_popescu	so you want "\t\t\t\t\tcsRef<iMeshWrapperIterator> objectIter = engine->GetNearbyMeshes(mesh->GetMovable()->GetSectors()->Get(0), oldpos + boundingBox.GetCenter(), boundingBox.GetSize().Norm() * 2);" to be instead
21:36	mircea_popescu	\t\t\t\t\tcsRef<iMeshWrapperIterator> objectIter = engine->\
21:36	mircea_popescu	GetNearbyMeshes(mesh->GetMovable()->GetSectors()->Get(0), oldpos + boundingBox.\
21:36	mircea_popescu	GetCenter(), boundingBox.GetSize().Norm() * 2);
21:36	mircea_popescu	?
21:36	asciilifeform	this dun render unambiguously on me terminal
21:36	asciilifeform	paste plox ?
21:37	asciilifeform	meanwhile observe asciilifeform's formatting in ffa
21:37	mircea_popescu	http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XJQ6d/?raw=true
21:38	asciilifeform	i.e. if function call simple, i.e. fits on 1 line -- then 1line; if not -- then 1 arg per line.
21:38	mircea_popescu	phf omfg is that phfatry opressing me ?!
21:38	asciilifeform	leaves room for comments also.
21:38	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yeah, this lispier way is much better.
21:38	asciilifeform	so answer to mircea_popescu's q is, neither !
21:39	mircea_popescu	heh.
21:39	phf	mircea_popescu: you don't necessarily need to introduce a break, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764371
21:39	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 23:45 phf: in a proper program 80 col is an indicator of s/n, density and all kinds of lateral properties, that can be communicated between professionals, because you can know ahead of time, what you're dealing with by shape, and have a rough estimate for the token count
21:39	mircea_popescu	but at issue here aere the comments ; and make no mistake about it -- since we're doing the whole literate thing this is very important.
21:40	phf	so a dangle like that is an indicator. in fact a dangle like that usually exists in programs that don't 80 column. but sometimes a dangle like that might just be necessary
21:40	mircea_popescu	phf i've little problem with people writing code in whatever line lengths they want to. but comments of arbitrary cut are infuriating (though admittedly 80col not nearly so much as 50whatever)
21:41	asciilifeform	if your cut is substantially below 80, it is merely annoying and wasteful of vertical. however if ~above~ 80, it makes yer code unprintable without substantial rework
21:42	asciilifeform	( can do ~120 on a4 if pressed. but leaves little margin room to write in )
21:42	*	mircea_popescu will link here http://trilema.com/2017/how-the-beastforumcom-private-messaging-function-became-a-paid-user-only-item/#selection-83.0-83.18 because heh.
21:42	mircea_popescu	ONE LINE!
21:43	asciilifeform	lol why not link obfuscatedccontest also
21:43	mircea_popescu	only a coupla kb.
21:43	asciilifeform	with the cock-shaped codes
21:43	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform unlike said contest, this snipped had real world impact!
21:44	ben_vulpes	now that we've done indentation, how about aligning variables on the right side of = operators
21:44	mircea_popescu	are we even done ? ;/
21:44	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: observe again style in ffa
21:44	ben_vulpes	or even aligning the = operators themselves
21:44	asciilifeform	declarations ditto
21:45	asciilifeform	align, imho, all that can be aligned. does wonders for reading.
21:45	mircea_popescu	hm.
21:45	phf	c had a somewhat right idea with ident :p you feed a proggy in, it force formats it for you
21:45	mircea_popescu	this is not even a bad argument. fixwidth speeds scan for code for sure.
21:46	asciilifeform	e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch4_ffacalc#L205
21:46	mircea_popescu	is the conclusion of this standards board discussion that "fu mp, live with 80col comments, we're not gonna reflow shit for you" then ?
21:46	asciilifeform	phf: i force-format my ada. this only affects indents tho
21:46	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: imho 1 lf per para is The Right Thing ~in humanolade strictly~
21:47	asciilifeform	where autoreflow does therighthing ~100%
21:47	asciilifeform	but in proggy -- 80col ideal.
21:47	mircea_popescu	i can't come up with any good counters.
21:48	ben_vulpes	http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#1848 << and fuck you if you want to make a command with a name more than 1char longer than "walletpassphrasechange"
21:49	mircea_popescu	oh btw -- variable names like that fucking suck.
21:49	mircea_popescu	we need a named item grammar.
21:49	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: make, why not. then it gets to be 2line
21:50	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: recall tigerfibel ?
21:50	asciilifeform	the germans had a grammar, for shorthand of orders
21:50	ben_vulpes	other lulzies in the same vein http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#2418 and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#0309
21:50	ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: entirely sensible!
21:50	asciilifeform	so loading of cannon was sumthing like 'fa-la-ma-fo'
21:51	*	asciilifeform recently reread 'tigerfibel', really a megaclassic of technical writing for all time
		↖
21:57	phf	mircea_popescu: 80col is such an old holiwar you're risking myself or ascii moving in a backyard and building defensive possitions, like those boys they bring from iraq do. "son, you can come out now, we showed those no break somsabeaches"
21:58	asciilifeform	'if i can't use my drum printer, i dun want yer revolution' or how did emma goldman put it..
22:05	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform aha.
22:05	mircea_popescu	on both cvounts.
22:05	mircea_popescu	phf fine!
22:06	mircea_popescu	can't even reform anything around here!
22:07	mircea_popescu	so to have closure, i suppose http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763975 should read "80 cols plox what is this"
		↖ ↖
22:07	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 17:31 mircea_popescu: esthlos please let your paragraphs flow. please.
22:11	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764241 << see ? three!!1 three secret retorts!!
22:11	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 19:58 ben_vulpes: yes i know, in ro
22:11	ben_vulpes	i'm still waiting on my three secret beakers
22:11	mircea_popescu	wait wut ?
22:11	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764245 << suspicious, isn't it ?
22:11	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 asciilifeform: ( likbez : all you need for the mythical holy grail, 'fast iron rsa', is a very large-bitnessed adder-cum-barrelshifter and a few storage registers that can be programmatically shuffled between. )
22:12	ben_vulpes	terribru pun on glassware
22:12	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: which ?
22:12	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764246 << this is a very apt commentary on the value of 1bn orcs piled up together.
22:12	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 BingoBoingo: In other news from the price is right department: "The personal information of more than a billion Indians stored in the world's largest biometric database can be bought online for less than $8, according to an investigation by an Indian newspaper."
22:12	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that -- yes, can have, but cripled like so
22:12	asciilifeform	oh it's simply a painfully small cpld is all
22:13	asciilifeform	was never meant for 'make own cpu'
22:13	asciilifeform	but for 'glue'
22:13	mircea_popescu	could have shifts!
22:14	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-02#1710096 << see also thread, re concretes
22:14	a111	Logged on 2017-09-02 19:42 asciilifeform: biggest ice part is the ICE40HX8K
22:16	mircea_popescu	now let's see here : "Meltdown breaks all security assumptions given by the CPUs memory isolation capabilities." vs "So given that there is in fact no secure memory implementation no matter how much it would be useful if there was one, EuCrypt takes instead the honest and practical approach of making it clear that it uses plain memory and nothing else."
22:16	mircea_popescu	who's ahead and who;s behind in the great technological race of 2010s ?
22:16	mircea_popescu	note to journahos of the future : include a plain statement of the above fact in your opening salvo or else.
22:17	asciilifeform	proofofconcept btw is pretty great, reads arbitrary pg of ram from wwwbrowser jsolade
22:18	mircea_popescu	aha
22:19	asciilifeform	( does 0 on pre-obummer amd, i will add )
22:19	mircea_popescu	i'm too lazy to dig up where mp says he uses old amds, but w/e.
22:20	asciilifeform	errybody literate, i suspect, uses
22:20	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764256 << let's leave it at that
22:20	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 20:19 ben_vulpes: btw how come nobody in the "stop rape culture!!11" world has done an indiestarter to build the vagina dentata from neal stephenson's snow crash?
22:20	mircea_popescu	btw, vafgina dentata is from freud not from john smith.
22:20	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: subj is a type of boobytrap, vs freud's
22:21	mircea_popescu	(and there was some idiot sheila from down below years ago ; i recall lulzing in the logs as to how this wonder will drive rapist to a) probe and b) beat into a squirming, faceless mess any bitch dumb enough to go around with it)
22:21	asciilifeform	never afaik used in life, for obvious reason
22:21	mircea_popescu	pretty sure we lulzed at this exact item, years ago.
22:21	asciilifeform	'mr.bayonet goes in first'
22:23	asciilifeform	'В комнату заходите вдвоем: сначала граната, потом - ты' (tm)(r)
22:24	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2012-10-15#-230312 << linked mostly for the bitcoin prices.
22:24	a111	Logged on 2012-10-15 05:01 BTC-Mining: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-rape_device#Rape-aXe
22:30	asciilifeform	http://fakty.ua/187680-esli-vo-vremya-zachistki-slyshish-v-pomecshenii-myaukane-iz-shkafa-ne-otkryvaj-vmeste-s-kotenkom-tam-mozhet-byt-spryatana-granata << collection of similar aphorisms, for dedicated archaeologist.
22:31	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764309 << but abstinence only is good for you.
22:31	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 21:16 phf: a forced popup that warns you that you're sending to http from https, but there's no about:config to disable the popup. 9 years of "ffs put a boolean in configs, you fucks"
22:34	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764319 << twas exhaustively discussed last time! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737379
22:34	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 22:30 asciilifeform: 'top 2 bits and bottom bit are ALWAYS 1!' << asciilifeform still doesn't get why to weld the next-to-highest
22:34	a111	Logged on 2017-11-14 01:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 11 x 11 = 1001 ; 10 x 10 = 0100
22:35	mircea_popescu	the ONLY way to make sure the top bit of a product is set, is to have BOTH top bits in BOTH factors set.
22:35	asciilifeform	so why not, then, 3 ?
22:35	mircea_popescu	because 3rd makes no difference.
22:35	mircea_popescu	110 x 110 and 111 x 111 BOTH result in a 1yyy
22:36	asciilifeform	hm.
22:36	asciilifeform	so does 11... x 10... tho
22:36	mircea_popescu	doesn't matter.
22:36	mircea_popescu	if you don't set it, it can always be worst case.
22:37	asciilifeform	throws away whole bit of entropy in each factor, for nuffin
22:37	mircea_popescu	for something.
22:37	mircea_popescu	fixlength N.
22:38	asciilifeform	wainot http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 pill ?
22:38	a111	Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
22:38	mircea_popescu	faster this way.
22:38	asciilifeform	rot13 fastest, lol
22:39	mircea_popescu	yes well, we're looking at ~10 second m-r run per item, so like half a day to produce a pair of primes.
22:39	mircea_popescu	im not throwing them away 93% of the time
22:41	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764342 << cuz i've been mostly the one guy reading her code to date i guess ?
22:41	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 23:01 asciilifeform: why not stick to the ancestral 80col, folx??
22:42	asciilifeform	1/4 not .93 lol
22:43	mircea_popescu	any of 6 bits not being set -> chucked item ; 2^6 = 64 so 1 in 64 ie 1.5% or so pass.
22:43	asciilifeform	why 6
22:44	asciilifeform	asciilifeform's algo was 'if top bit of p*q not set, get new p,q'
22:44	mircea_popescu	!!up kook00
22:44	deedbot	kook00 voiced for 30 minutes.
22:45	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so you ok with fixing bottom bit ?
22:45	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: gotta odd p,q
22:45	mircea_popescu	so ? test for parity! throw out!
22:45	asciilifeform	there's not an escape from bottom
22:45	mircea_popescu	i don't want the 1/4 bit of parity
22:45	asciilifeform	that wouldn't win anything tho
22:46	asciilifeform	whereas my algo preserves the entropy of the penultimate bit.
22:46	mircea_popescu	i dun want it.
22:46	asciilifeform	aite. so long as you know what yer buying.
22:47	mircea_popescu	i'm dealing with "four rounds of m-r and a 5th fixed with 2, so as to fix the cone of blindness" bs and you want me to care about the 2047th bit ?
22:47	mircea_popescu	dja understand motherfucking koch fixed one of the witnesses in mr ?
22:47	asciilifeform	aha
22:48	mircea_popescu	what nsa gains from being able to rely on 2 rather than 44444444444444444 is anyone's fucking guess
22:48	asciilifeform	( 'fixed' rng also.. )
22:48	mircea_popescu	"oh, 2 is a great witness for odd composites" "so would have been any other even number" "yes but... umm..."
22:49	asciilifeform	'can't pick witnesses trngistically because reasons'
22:50	asciilifeform	i mean ffs, koch dun even leave a knob to get ~key~ entropy trngistically.
22:50	asciilifeform	'what if running on toaster, with no rng'
22:50	mircea_popescu	what if running on his mother.
22:51	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764363 << possibly should auction the piles.
22:51	a111	Logged on 2018-01-04 23:39 asciilifeform: generally my page will in the end have ~equal area of pencilmark and printerola
22:51	asciilifeform	the sheer wtf, srsly, consider the folx who imagine they are somehow cryptoizing on a machine with no trng
22:54	asciilifeform	re prime gen -- i suspect that the problem can be finessed ,
22:54	mircea_popescu	holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs.
22:55	asciilifeform	specifically that a proof of uniformity for an apeloyee-style primeconstructor mechanism, is in nearer reach than a runnable-on-2048b-ints aks.
22:56	mircea_popescu	i'd read.
22:56	asciilifeform	( but not having it yet -- asciilifeform cannot say for a fact. )
22:56	mircea_popescu	tho i am deeply suspicious of constructed primes.
22:56	asciilifeform	rightfully.
22:56	asciilifeform	there is pointedly NOT a safe constructor known.
22:56	asciilifeform	( see the thread )
22:58	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733382 << subj.
22:58	a111	Logged on 2017-11-07 16:36 asciilifeform: let's model the ideal prime-shitter. it would be an item that takes integer N , of whatever bitness, and produce the Nth prime ( or eggog if the Nth prime is bigger than the register bitness permitted. )
23:00	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764429 << im impressed you're aware
23:00	a111	Logged on 2018-01-05 00:12 asciilifeform: right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
23:01	asciilifeform	lolwhy
23:01	mircea_popescu	im easily impressed, what.
23:03	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there is no method to produce nth prime.
23:06	asciilifeform	noshit
23:06	asciilifeform	one of the biggest unsolveds , since greeks
23:06	asciilifeform	nor do i expect to see a solution.
23:07	asciilifeform	then again i didn't expect 'primes is in p' either.
23:09	mircea_popescu	it'll be funny 5mn years from now, when we're all sitting around with whatever pools & eggnogs of the future and rsa still stands, undaunted, in preference of ~everything else.
23:09	mircea_popescu	"turns out primes isn't even in W!"
23:09	asciilifeform	and will add, that it is theoretically possible to satisfy asciilifeform's uniformity criterion ( 'avoids no primes' + 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' ) without creating the mythical n-th-prime-maker
23:09	asciilifeform	lol
23:11	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you have a different problem : even if "no bit of input is more influential than other" i STILL want to put in no less than 2045 bits of input ; AND get out no MORE! than 2048 bit long prime.
23:11	mircea_popescu	so you don't have much to work with.
23:11	asciilifeform	the described item is trivially impossible
23:11	mircea_popescu	quite my point.
23:11	mircea_popescu	but any other item is worse than what we have now.
23:11	asciilifeform	most 2048bitness state is composite
23:11	asciilifeform	i dun see how worse
23:11	mircea_popescu	if your magic maker uses say 2044 bits of input, therefore you have half as many possible states than i do!
23:12	mircea_popescu	so you're half as wide, so end of story.
23:12	asciilifeform	mno. you have same 2044 or whatnot. just takes you longer. and with m-r , also chance to step on a mine.
23:13	mircea_popescu	consider : mp-prime takes 2045 bits from trng, spits out after some wrangling 2048 bit prime number ; meanwhile alf-prime takes 45 bits from trng, spits out after some wrangling 2048 bit prime.
23:13	mircea_popescu	mp-prime is stronger than alf-prime.
23:13	asciilifeform	why 45 ?
23:13	mircea_popescu	anything other than 2045 loses.
23:14	asciilifeform	there aint 2045 bits of primespace under 2048b of integerspace.
23:15	mircea_popescu	about 1 in 2k numbers is prime there.
23:15	mircea_popescu	so say 2^11.
23:15	asciilifeform	so that's the actual keyspace available.
23:15	asciilifeform	under 2048.
23:15	mircea_popescu	even if i admit this objection, which i dunno i should but let's, for fellowship -- 2037 still not much room to work with
23:15	asciilifeform	can get to it the current way, or, hypothetically, some martian way.
23:16	asciilifeform	i dun have the martian one, ftr.
23:16	asciilifeform	all i got, is m-r
23:17	asciilifeform	would be neat to generate keys in bounded time. and know primality for a fact. BUT i dun have, yet, such a pill.
23:20	mircea_popescu	moreover! while there's just as many integers with the 1337th bit set as there are with it nul, nevertheless it's trivially not the case that there's just as many 2048 bit prime numbers with it set as there are with it null.
23:20	mircea_popescu	ie, prime numbers themselves do not follow this 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' rule.
23:20	mircea_popescu	(now go, predict things about how it falls)
23:20	asciilifeform	expand?
23:20	asciilifeform	( i can't see from where mircea_popescu extracts this )
23:22	mircea_popescu	you expect you have an even count of prime numbers ?
23:22	asciilifeform	afaik no known pattern
23:22	mircea_popescu	no known pattern ; but no homogenity either. there's always an even count of integers in a given bitsize ; but not necessarily an even count of primes.
23:23	asciilifeform	try it
23:23	*	asciilifeform brb,meat
23:23	mircea_popescu	try what ?
23:23	mircea_popescu	7 primes in 4 bits, for instance.
23:36	mircea_popescu	diana_coman "to unsure" -> ensure
23:39	mircea_popescu	"go and read some basic books" -> "read, re-read <em>and understand</em> TAOCP" ? or what, add K&R in there ? steele's 2002 thing ?
23:41	mircea_popescu	diana_coman technically it's incorrect to say "6 bits will always be 1" ; it's the case that the first and the last bits of N are always 1 ; and a further number of bits are subtly affected (ie, biased) by the p, q masks.
23:41	*	mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
		↖
23:50	mircea_popescu	!!up kook00
23:50	deedbot	kook00 voiced for 30 minutes.

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