Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-10-19 | 2016-10-21 → ↓
00:08 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2016/10/19/is-so-unfair-cycle-2/ << Bingo Blog - Is So Unfair Cycle 2
~ 22 minutes ~
00:30 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo indeed. slowly percolating through my head :)
00:31 BingoBoingo Trump has hoardes, CLitler has "settlers" who can settle on other candidates.
00:32 mircea_popescu and in other afterparty news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/04467c1871a1103396d2ece8c0da251d/tumblr_nesv8r1BYD1tiy6qdo1_1280.jpg
00:35 ben_vulpes back up to 84 pete_dushenski
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00:35 ben_vulpes i'm going to have to start collecting statistics.
~ 59 minutes ~
01:35 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556881 << i must point out, much as i have 0 luvvv for these folx, that this was a forced move. clim is ugly and dog-slow for what i suspect are fundamental reasons .
01:35 a111 Logged on 2016-10-19 23:10 gabriel_laddel: This, when they already had a complete clim implementation.
01:35 asciilifeform and probably not fixable w/out making iron.
01:36 asciilifeform (consider, why did they not simply clim-for-winblowz ??)
~ 4 hours 40 minutes ~
06:17 Framedragger http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 << tbh i didn't check. does it re-enable after hw switch is toggled? what distro/OS do you run? i could check how it is on my end on that machine (prolly tomorrow, not today)
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06:17 Framedragger hmpf
06:19 Framedragger will check logs later. ridoinculous
06:19 Framedragger http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 ^
06:19 scriba Logged on 2016-10-19: [23:36:04] <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again?
06:21 Framedragger also iirc x220's come with either intel or realtek wifi adapters. mine is intel
~ 2 hours 3 minutes ~
08:25 mircea_popescu and in other "future britny spears" news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlU_wYK0YF4
08:28 mircea_popescu and here';s something for ben_vulpes specifically : http://www.kopana.net/september-15-2014/
08:28 diana_coman ahaha: ",operator imagine : Mircea Popescu"
08:31 mircea_popescu aha. it's how it ended up in my flux.
~ 1 hours 40 minutes ~
10:12 mod6 mornin'
10:15 mircea_popescu hola
10:27 trinque Framedragger: ah and here I thought he wanted the wifi to stay off!
~ 18 minutes ~
10:45 mircea_popescu and in today's installement of "i am a jew and an idiot, hear my butt tearflow", https://archive.is/tJj1I
10:56 trinque was pretty entertaining when that mickey mouse hosting the show asked them why neither of them care about increasing the national debt.
11:07 asciilifeform https://archive.is/wL0Ev << in other lelz
11:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1556998 << wtf is such a 'hardware' switch worth ?!
11:12 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 10:17 Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161019/#291 << tbh i didn't check. does it re-enable after hw switch is toggled? what distro/OS do you run? i could check how it is on my end on that machine (prolly tomorrow, not today)
11:12 scriba Logged on 2016-10-19: [23:36:04] <gabriel_laddel> Framedragger: have you managed to turn off the wifi on your x220 such that it won't re-enable when you toggle the hardware switch again?
~ 38 minutes ~
11:50 Framedragger asciilifeform: i don't know how it works internally in x220. if i wanted to make sure to not have wifi, i'd remove / physically disconnect the controller, of course..
11:54 asciilifeform Framedragger: it is trivial to pull the card. my point is that there is an abundance of mysteriously softwaretronic 'hardware switches' for write-protect, radio-toggle, etc.
11:54 Framedragger asciilifeform: hey no disagreement there!
11:54 Framedragger tbh i wouldn't expect anything truly shady out of x220. i just didn't try any switches yet
11:55 Framedragger ("truly shady" except for, you know, the whole shitty stack incl cpu, dma etc)
11:55 asciilifeform or the winblowz rootkit which still ships with the stock bios
11:55 asciilifeform etc
11:55 Framedragger the prime point of my conviction regarding shadiness comes from the fact that X220 has a legit hax0r backlight at top of monitor.
11:56 Framedragger asciilifeform: you mean uefi? yeah..
11:56 asciilifeform no, ordinary rootkit
11:56 Framedragger oh, uh
11:56 trinque wtf is a legit hax0r backlight
11:57 Framedragger trinque: it's a small LED which shines down upon the most awesome thinkpad keyboard before lenovo ruined (fuck chiclet)
11:58 Framedragger asciilifeform: you don't mean anything in cpu microcode but rather in bios? plox to enlighten uneducated naive mind
11:58 asciilifeform !#s lenovo rootkit
11:58 a111 1 result for "lenovo rootkit", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=lenovo%20rootkit
11:58 trinque presence of this backlight makes you think either of IBM or Lenovo wouldn't fuck you for their government masters?
11:58 asciilifeform !~google lenovo rootkit
11:58 jhvh1 asciilifeform: Lenovo used shady ' rootkit ' tactic to quietly reinstall unwanted ...: <http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-rootkit-ensured-its-software-could-not-be-deleted/>; Lenovo Caught Using Rootkit to Secretly Install Unremovable Software: <http://thehackernews.com/2015/08/lenovo-rootkit-malware.html>; Lenovo Statement on Lenovo Service Engine (LSE) BIOS | Lenovo ...: (1 more message)
12:00 Framedragger asciilifeform: heh. i think i recall. pity i didn't properly *read* about it. guess time to corebios the fuck out of that laptop anyway
12:00 asciilifeform https://archive.is/nnVrp << in other lulz, amerikanization!11111
12:00 Framedragger asciilifeform: oh no this is sth else - thanks!
12:01 asciilifeform ^ argentina mandates diebold voting machine and proclaims that publication of flaws is punishable
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12:02 Framedragger (still not sure if that rootkit is basically same as superfish. the latter is just in software as i take it; the former is a lenovo superduper software update solution which can download the latter(?) and resides in BIOS which is scary)
12:03 asciilifeform Framedragger: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=82d9b8ff7442a8e58f779a08c0d06494#p29497693
12:03 asciilifeform ( https://archive.is/QFIFw )
12:03 asciilifeform ^ archive.is seems to break anchors
12:03 Framedragger "More worrisome part of the feature is that it injects software that updates drivers, firmware, and other pre-installed apps onto Windows machine – even if you wiped the system clean." LOL
12:03 Framedragger kthx
12:05 Framedragger "a file called "wpbbin.exe" was placed in C:\windows\system32 and executed. That turns out to be a method Microsoft introduced with Windows 8 to allow the BIOS to execute code on boot up (!?!) called "Windows Platform Binary Table (WPBT)"." gotta love M$
12:06 thestringpuller !!s 150
12:07 Framedragger (and lenovo published their own 'Lenovo LSE Windows Disabler Tool'). [sorry i'm sure this is in the logz - i'm behind on stuff..]
12:07 thestringpuller !~s bip-150
12:07 jhvh1 thestringpuller: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
12:08 thestringpuller power rangers version of gossipd like stuff? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0150.mediawiki
12:10 Framedragger five back-and-forth messages, hmh. also "For privacy reasons, dropping the connection or aborting during the authentication process must not be allowed. " sounds stupid to me
12:10 thestringpuller unsurprising coming from the power rangers
12:10 asciilifeform 'Acknowledgements: Gregory Maxwell and Pieter Wuille for most of the ideas in this BIP. Bryan Bishop for editing.'
12:10 asciilifeform bishop == kanzure
12:11 asciilifeform self-admitted usg hilfswillige.
12:12 thestringpuller "A Hiwi was a foreigner who volunteered to serve the Nazis."
12:12 thestringpuller TIL
12:13 asciilifeform !!rated kanzure
12:13 deedbot asciilifeform rated kanzure -1 at 2014/06/21 22:40:29 << minor-league quisling; inquire within
12:13 * thestringpuller inquires about rating
12:13 asciilifeform it is in recent l0gz iirc.
12:13 asciilifeform folks ask regularly, because the d00d is 'everywhere'.
12:21 thestringpuller http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-04#1552372 << so d00d works for Hitler?
12:21 a111 Logged on 2016-10-04 02:17 asciilifeform: kid was cursed, at very young age, with being 'esr rich'
12:22 asciilifeform works, as far as i can tell, for the self-importance monkey riding on his back.
12:22 asciilifeform but possibly at this point also for bread.
12:23 thestringpuller hence why he types 20k word transcripts of lame meetings?
12:23 asciilifeform the sort of fella who wants to be, where 'it's at' by his dim lights.
12:26 asciilifeform y'know, folx like walter schellenberg, who joined ss simply because of the spiffy uniform and 'good career perspective'
12:29 thestringpuller albeit off topic. your WWII references genuinely used to make me think you were >70 y/o
12:29 asciilifeform lel
12:40 Framedragger trinque: here's a (very shitty) video of someone dem0nstrating said light https://youtu.be/WzfL3parOWM?t=12
12:40 Framedragger it's for the win.
12:41 asciilifeform i had several boxes with this lamp, imho it is monumentally useless.
12:41 asciilifeform why the fuck do you even need to see the keys.
12:42 asciilifeform .. 'hunt and peck' typing ??
12:42 Framedragger i actually like to have a sticky note near palm to scribble upon. in the dark
12:43 Framedragger i too learned to type in was it 3rd grade :p but the light is aw3some. seriously tho, yeah it's not powerful at all
12:43 asciilifeform i prefer working in a lit room
12:43 asciilifeform (better yet, in the daytime)
12:44 Framedragger but then how can you hax0r.
12:44 Framedragger (i'm in an energetic mood today, teenage mode = collateral damage)
12:46 thestringpuller you have a teenager?
12:47 Framedragger thestringpuller: no not in the sense that you mean..
12:47 Framedragger in unrelated news/queries, game audio has deteriorated in the last 10 years. used to be proper 3d positional audio. am trying to build a shitty 2d top-down thingie with proper HRTF etc for audio, don't suppose anyone has any recommendations? if worx on linux, enough in principle. linux + osx + windows = ideal
12:47 Framedragger (mandatory 'fuck creative labs and fuck microsoft for pulling back on soundcard APIs)
12:48 thestringpuller what are you using?
12:48 thestringpuller sdl?
12:50 Framedragger thestringpuller: pyglet for prototyping (yes yes python & graphics wtf), later - i do not know, i considered unity for prototyping, too (fat thing, that, yes). for ease of sake, very likely sdl for graphics and events, but not set.
12:50 thestringpuller ah
12:51 thestringpuller SDL with OpenAL is probably better suited, but more code writing.
12:51 Framedragger unity hsa this oculus audio sdk which does HRTF and everything, but no occlusion. openal-soft does the latter as well as HRTF
12:51 Framedragger thestringpuller: yeah fair enough
12:52 Framedragger the -soft fork of openal seems very decent enough. i was hoping for something high/lazy-level for graphics so i don't have to deal too much with it (it'd be just 2d shapes anyway, no textures etc, super simplistic), and lower-level for audio so i can mess around with it. openal-soft as of now best contender
12:52 Framedragger but man is audio a mess. so much middleware and layers
12:52 thestringpuller i think with openal (iirc) you can drop sound to emit from a location like a light source on 3d map
12:52 thestringpuller people used to love they could use the coords from OpenGL with OpenAL
12:54 thestringpuller oh wow this shit still exist. I did this tutorial in high school circa 2003/2004: http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/programming-3d-sound-with-openal-in-windows-r1958 << its for windows but I think you can translate to linux p. easily
12:56 thestringpuller Framedragger: yea its something like: alSource3f(alSource,AL_POSITION, xposition, yposition, zposition);
12:56 Framedragger (was afk.) (i guess it's unavoidable to a point because e.g. you need to somehow pass down complex scene info (not only sources and listeners but also obstacles for occlusion/reverb) into a low-level api)
12:57 thestringpuller I mean you don't have to use opengl for graphics just use openal's coordinate system on top of SDL
12:58 Framedragger thestringpuller: yeah you're totally right and i really like the api - it's nice! it does seem that to make sure everything incl hrtf works on a person's PC it needs to be installed to system dirs and then linked dynamically as folks had problems with static linking; and apparently for windows the 'proper' way to do it is to first install creative's openal version, and *then* install openal-soft on top
12:58 Framedragger which is something i'd like to avoid; but if i can't - then i guess it's still the best thing available
12:58 Framedragger yeah
13:00 Framedragger (in one of his talks karmack did complain that (something like) "it's still ridiculous that i can send a packet to another continent than i can send a click to my sound card!" - basically, multiple middlware layers are involved and it's a bit.. stinky. but at least one can stick to a good API and reduce the headache..)
13:01 Framedragger ^ send a packet *faster*
13:02 asciilifeform Framedragger: 'software mixers' are an evil.
13:03 Framedragger asciilifeform: asciilifeform: but if you want 3d soundspace with coordinates of sounds etc?
13:03 asciilifeform (audio buffers are also an idiocy, but it is a forced mistake, it comes from trying to do real-time operations on a multiprocess os full of shit)
13:03 Framedragger i guess that's not "mixing"
13:04 asciilifeform the 'msdos way' to do audio was the sane way - 'what i write to this-here-address comes out the DAC immediately.'
13:04 Framedragger yeah, linux audio folks have these suggestions to "run everything on a realtime kernel", which is probably akin to pouring a bit of water (which may or may not be mixed with gasoline) on a large fire.
13:04 Framedragger sure.
13:04 Framedragger i'd really like that
13:05 asciilifeform ever try to use a linux (or winblowz) box for cnc machining via naive 'parallel port to stepper motor' plug ?
13:05 asciilifeform you get soup.
13:05 asciilifeform because multiprocess.
13:05 asciilifeform worse yet if on a laptop, which has smm
13:05 Framedragger i can imagine. i mean.. laggy audio on 2ghz cpu because multiprocess OS
13:05 asciilifeform (and then you get interrupts serviced even under msdos with interrupt flag off)
13:06 Framedragger heh!
13:07 Framedragger s/karmack/carmack/ ^
13:10 thestringpuller asciilifeform: the ms-dos way is used on the gameboy
13:11 thestringpuller DMA to this address and out comes sound
13:11 asciilifeform thestringpuller: and on every sane piece of single-purpose hardware ever made.
13:11 thestringpuller writing a program for it felt a lot liek telling the computer to play a tape...
~ 50 minutes ~
14:02 trinque Framedragger: I had old school thinkpads; I was mocking your implication that it meant anything about whether the hardware was diddled
14:05 trinque looking back over recent history, maybe a guy asks himself why the government stopped pushing the clipper chip.
14:05 * trinque does not know how old Framedragger is
14:12 BingoBoingo re: lights >> http://www.27bslash6.com/halogen.html
14:15 asciilifeform in other vintage lulz, https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitiously.html#c1746484 << 'little birds' tell me that this actually happened. but no proof. anyone got electron microscope and too much free time ?
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~ 17 minutes ~
14:33 asciilifeform http://blog.jim.com << in quite other lulz.
14:35 asciilifeform 'As you know “the international community” is denouncing Russia’s use of bunker buster bombs as a war crime. There is a rebel video on you tube examining the hole made by a bunker buster. Looks like the bomb blast went through two meters of concrete to blow up inside a bunker. Somehow I doubt that you will find all that many civilians under two meters of concrete inside a bunker. But I rather suspect you might find a few memb
14:35 asciilifeform ers of “the international community” in there.'
14:35 asciilifeform etc.
14:36 asciilifeform http://blog.jim.com/uncategorized/nitrocellulose-illegalized << also of interest.
14:36 asciilifeform BingoBoingo ^ (belated) qntra ?
14:37 BingoBoingo Sure
14:47 asciilifeform http://blog.jim.com/war/now-four-sovereign-nations << re turks.
14:54 asciilifeform many lulz. (e.g., http://blog.jim.com/war/on-successful-revolution )
15:05 asciilifeform http://blog.jim.com/science/technological-decay-2 << aerial combat etc.
15:11 mircea_popescu lol electrospaces.blogspot mmkay
15:11 asciilifeform very mixed bag, this d00d.
15:11 asciilifeform but not wholly a snore, which is rare.
15:16 trinque where does he define this Cathedral thing
15:16 asciilifeform trinque: it's a moldbugism
15:17 mircea_popescu no it's not.
15:17 mircea_popescu "the cathedral and the bazaar", google it.
15:17 asciilifeform this is coincidental
15:17 asciilifeform mr mold was quite specific about which 'cathedral', 0 to do with esr's.
15:17 mircea_popescu not in the slightest. i daresay there is not one thing that originates with the curtis yarvin fellow.
15:17 trinque I'm aware of the latter
15:18 mircea_popescu what he does is the very americansky "i buy old books and rewrite them in my own hand, nobody'd ever know"
15:18 asciilifeform this, he did not try to hide. but his 'cathedral' is american (and, post-1945, 'internashiinnal komyooniti') academia/press.
15:19 mircea_popescu the difference from the other one being specifically that ?
15:19 asciilifeform iirc esr's referred to microshit
15:19 mircea_popescu ie, academia/press
15:20 mircea_popescu the whole "this is how the matriarchy does it, this is how it should be done - because the matriarchy in all times and places is so much frozen shit" is not liable to change over time.
15:21 asciilifeform imho it is useful to distinguish pickpocket from rustler, even if both are hanged with the same type of rope on the same tree on same day etc.
15:21 mircea_popescu but do distinguish.
15:22 mircea_popescu so how is microsoft different from democratic party supercap ?
15:22 mircea_popescu physically the same people, ideologically the same agenda, financially the exact same "money", wherein lies the distinguishing ?
15:22 asciilifeform esr's 'cathedral' is an imbecilic indictment of führerprinzip ;
15:22 asciilifeform mr mold's - of demooocracy.
15:22 mircea_popescu not in my read
15:23 asciilifeform if we're dabbling in telepsychiatry, then the subject is what the patient hallucinated, rather than the actual objects that were in front of him at the time.
15:23 asciilifeform esr hallucinated 'microshit is evil because monarchic'
15:23 mircea_popescu well i dunno about that. the point being, if two works purport to describe items that can not be distinguished, it then stands that the two works are about the same thing.
15:24 asciilifeform they describe the author's hallucinations, which are not difficult to distinguish.
15:24 mircea_popescu this is how metaphysics, or christianity, etc even became subjects in the first place
15:24 asciilifeform the actualities - correct, are quite similar, to sane eye.
15:24 mircea_popescu there is absolutely nothing but this to glue together eg t aquinas and jonas the prophet
15:25 mircea_popescu (and for bonus lulz - according to THEMSELVES, the pashtun are jews. unlike the people you and i know as jews, who are idiots, the good jews from afghanistan heard of the last prophet and sent envoys to muhammad.)
15:26 mircea_popescu and since it's been mentioned, let it be said i'm rather suspicious of this fuhrerprinzip business also. nazis WERE socialists, by their own lights, and the fact that they desired a matriarchy stylistically irreconcilable with the matriarchy in power in england does not make them men, or respectable.
15:27 asciilifeform that cargo cultists build 'airplane', does not show that airplane is a scam.
15:27 mircea_popescu sure.
15:28 asciilifeform 'tischgespräche im führerhauptquartier' and other sources strongly suggest that ~their~ airplane - was of straw.
15:28 asciilifeform or at least of very dubious cardboard.
15:28 mircea_popescu and since we're on it, let's define terms. matriarchy - an arrangement built among the worst in society, who are weak, inconsequential, ambitious and envious. they tend to spend a lot of time gossiping - which is speech without purpose - and dedicate themselves to a very pedestrian sort of magico-technology, aiming to protect, their worthless flesh as well as their miserable progeny. this necessarily decays into a quest for c
15:28 mircea_popescu onvenience, which is no sort of hedonism.
15:29 mircea_popescu meanwhile patriarchy is an arrangement among the best in society, who are strong, inconsequential, and careless. they tend to spend a lot of time doing, which is purpose without speech, and dedicate themselves to raping the women and tearing down anything taller than themselves.
15:29 asciilifeform afaik we all here went to kindergarten, read of herr nietzsche's slave morality, etc..
15:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sometimes i suspect you might have been the only one at your kindergarten :)
15:30 asciilifeform lel
15:30 asciilifeform http://blog.jim.com/crypto/against-urbit << poor heathens dance around the elephant
15:31 asciilifeform http://blog.jim.com/crypto/against-urbit/#comment-1241097 << handful of folx - get it.
15:32 asciilifeform ( apparently mr mold was ordered by handlers to counter-attack, http://urbit.org/posts/objections )
15:32 mircea_popescu anyway. that the matriarchy always builds some sort of reddit, which is to say the female hujra, pointless-blather-house is much of a historical necessity ; much like how the matriarchy's annoyance at ~what trump represents~ necessarily expressed itself in terms of fantastic "rape".
15:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hey, if they have a controversy it means they exist rite ?
15:33 asciilifeform the sop algo, aha.
15:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557039 << this was a major point of contention during previous elections. guy published (ridiculous, web based xss) flaw in their voting thing, everyone threw a hissy fit
15:34 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 16:01 asciilifeform: ^ argentina mandates diebold voting machine and proclaims that publication of flaws is punishable
15:34 asciilifeform i can picture some schmuck in casa rosada going, roughly, 'догоним и перегоним америку !'
15:35 asciilifeform i wonder, did they actually import american hardware, or contracted to have own, 'industria argentina' dieboldtrons birthed ?
15:36 mircea_popescu the schmuck in casa rosada is very much a dmitry ovsyannikov.
15:38 asciilifeform 'TLDR: all of computing is a hoax. You can't compare a hoax to nothing. You can only compare it to all the other hoaxes.'
15:38 asciilifeform wat.
15:39 deedbot http://thewhet.net/2016/the-best-things-in-eulora-are-grimy/ << The Whet - The Best Things in Eulora are Grimy
15:39 asciilifeform 'Urbit is a total scamcoin. It's 100% premined TLDR: yeah. But at least it's not the DAO.'
15:40 mircea_popescu the department of "here's words, they don't mean anything"
15:41 asciilifeform eh back to the pickpockets; there is a difference between crackpot and charlatan.
15:42 mircea_popescu there is a difference if and only if the difference can be shown.
15:42 trinque what does what he believes in "his true self" matter?
15:42 trinque is the timecube guy not lying?
15:43 asciilifeform 0 to do with 'inner selves'
15:43 asciilifeform but with the physical props of the chumpatron.
15:44 mircea_popescu how do you aim to extract difference between crackpot and charlatan from examination of physical reality ?
15:44 asciilifeform charlatan leaves behind corpses.
15:44 mircea_popescu i am very much interested in this method, because i guess it could be extended to distinguish malicious from stupid slavegirls
15:44 mircea_popescu ex post facto ? that's not much of a distinction.
15:45 asciilifeform it isn't an earth-shakingly useful distinction, except in situations where you have a finite length of rope and gotta decide who goes first.
15:53 asciilifeform in re thread from coupla days ago, i was somewhat surprised to discover that a recent homomorphatron scam, 'cryptoleq', is now promoted in a buncha places, incl. pediwikia, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer#Cryptoleq and probably elsewhere ) .
15:53 asciilifeform based on the most obvious scheme, that i toyed with as a student, paillier (see oooooold l0gz)
15:53 asciilifeform problem is that paillier dun multiply. or turingate at all.
15:53 asciilifeform now guess how author 'solves.'
15:54 asciilifeform (i was only able to see 'solution' from the shithub code, the paper is everywhere paywalled. and this somehow passes as a 'source' for pediwik et al..)
15:54 mircea_popescu does it add ?
15:55 asciilifeform nah, it 'solves' the same way all of the imbeciles in darpa's homomorphotron pig trough 'solved.'
15:55 asciilifeform by plain making shit up.
15:55 asciilifeform 'this multiplies, based on this-here conjecture, we suspect it to be strong...'
15:55 mircea_popescu but does paillier add ?
15:55 asciilifeform and the branches take place 'in plaintext'.
15:55 asciilifeform (which is to say, are actual branches, visible to the naked eye, based on the outcome of the magic box)
15:56 asciilifeform paillier adds, that's all it does.
15:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557132 << guess why "whitening" is so important for the imperials.
15:56 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 18:15 asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/surreptitiously.html#c1746484 << 'little birds' tell me that this actually happened. but no proof. anyone got electron microscope and too much free time ?
15:56 asciilifeform noshit.
15:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you could construct a multiply ints function out of add ints
15:56 mircea_popescu then you could construct all other math from this
15:56 mircea_popescu after all algebra is constructive.
15:56 asciilifeform except you need a crypto-branch.
15:56 asciilifeform and if you had one, you'd be done.
15:56 mircea_popescu explain this to me ?
15:58 asciilifeform homomorphic-under-addition just means that you can take C1, C2, encrypted ints P1, P2, and get C3, encrypted sum, that decrypts later to the correct sum of P1+P2
15:58 mircea_popescu right.
15:58 asciilifeform you cannot turingate with this, alone.
15:59 mircea_popescu if my job is to obtain C1 * C2 I will chain it : ask A to produce P1 + P1 ; ask B to add P1 to his result. ask C to add P1 to that result and so on.
15:59 asciilifeform instead, you would need something like F(C1, C2, C3) == P3 + max(P1, P2).
15:59 asciilifeform this does not exist.
15:59 asciilifeform and quite likely cannot exist.
15:59 mircea_popescu what's the problem though ?
15:59 asciilifeform make me a branch.
15:59 asciilifeform you gotta have a branch.
16:00 mircea_popescu i have nfi what you're on about. again : i want to multiply C1 by C2. I fire up the UCI, i ask C2 processes to add C1 to the result of the previous process adding C1 to the result of the...
16:01 asciilifeform ~how many times~ to 'add C1' ??
16:01 mircea_popescu C2
16:01 asciilifeform this dun work with paillier. or any other known scheme.
16:01 mircea_popescu ...
16:02 mircea_popescu are you actually reading what i say or should i just stop ?
16:02 asciilifeform read. several times.
16:02 mircea_popescu let's try once more. so, I want to multiply 3 by 3. suppose the encrypted form of 3 is fgh.
16:02 mircea_popescu i ask you to add fgh to fgh. you come back with qwe
16:03 mircea_popescu i ask trinque to add fgh to qwe
16:03 mircea_popescu he reports tty
16:03 mircea_popescu i decrypt tty and have my 9.
16:03 asciilifeform this is a card trick, not crypto.
16:03 mircea_popescu because ?
16:03 asciilifeform if you're locked in a room with'em, and see all of the steps, they know the 3.
16:03 mircea_popescu don't CALL THINGS THINGS. show. don't tell. this isn't bad fanfic hour.
16:04 mircea_popescu huh ?
16:04 asciilifeform well they know that there were 3 additions.
16:04 mircea_popescu maybe i ask a bunch of decoys
16:05 mircea_popescu in other words : paillier in UCI over gossipd seems capable of bignum.
16:05 asciilifeform this is rather like the 'send the new key and signature in one shot' thread. crypto that dun work if the enemy watches both of your hands, ain't crypto.
16:05 asciilifeform promise, not protocol.
16:05 mircea_popescu how is it like ?
16:06 asciilifeform would you still think that rsa were strong, if it sufficed to, say, collect 90% of the ciphertext that's left your house, to derive the privkey ?
16:07 mircea_popescu this is a very abstruse spoke off an interesting discussion. i dun really want to follow it. can we get back to the point ?
16:08 asciilifeform aite. (i dun even dispute that a scheme where multiple parties are used for obfuscatory/smoke purposes ~can be useful~ - but it is not crypto in the normal sense. stego, perhaps.)
16:08 mircea_popescu the scheme presented isn't in any sense what you describe.
16:08 asciilifeform how not ? if i know that you delegated a total of 3 ops, i know that your multiplicand is <= 3.
16:09 asciilifeform (and we still have not arrived at the question of how to branch)
16:09 mircea_popescu but you can't know that i'm multiplying
16:09 asciilifeform it isn't that i can say, with 100% certainty, that you multiplied; it is that i have != 0 bits of info re what you might be doing.
16:09 asciilifeform this is a problem.
16:10 mircea_popescu this is an illusion.
16:10 mircea_popescu you present to yourself that you do, because you wish to. but in practice, you do not.
16:11 mircea_popescu from the fact that A asks B to p-add P1 and P1 you can not distinguish whether P1 is being multiplied or added. that you can't distinguish between these two means you have 0 bits, not > 0 bits.
16:12 asciilifeform if you know the total set of A-asked-B, you can put bounds on what was done.
16:12 mircea_popescu except you can never know that total set.
16:12 mircea_popescu this is a stronger guarantee than what rsa offers, incidentally.
16:13 asciilifeform it is no guarantee of any kind.
16:13 asciilifeform (neither has, of course, rsa.)
16:13 asciilifeform crypto that dun work inside a 100% surrounded castle is not crypto.
16:13 mircea_popescu it is. in order for you to get the whole set you must a) break rsa keys as numerous as the whole set and b) magically intercept all communications, even those happening outside of any set that includes you.
16:14 mircea_popescu so its strength really is n*rsa + x
16:15 asciilifeform this gedankenexperiment strikes me as quite similar to the one where you 'defeat' 2nd law of thermo. by dumping heat into a black hole, and similar.
16:16 mircea_popescu i dun follow ?
16:17 mircea_popescu http://blog.jim.com/culture/why-women-get-tattooed/#comments << in other news, holy shit check out the ream of experts in women.
16:17 asciilifeform scheme that relies on a and b, in besieged castle, to communicate with a non-besieged C, is not crypto.
16:18 asciilifeform let's temporarily leave this part for later, and posit that mircea_popescu can both add and multiply homomorphically, via whatever means. i'd like to hear how he carries out the branching.
16:18 phf "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
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16:18 trinque mircea_popescu is afaik proposing the communication of these is encrypted; asciilifeform is seeing them transmitted in teh bare
16:18 mircea_popescu i'm not interested in the branching, will be happy to have a bignum machine that's securely separable via uci.
16:18 trinque if not I don't see how alf says every single comm between all peers gets intercepted readably
16:19 mircea_popescu trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the gossipd spec.
16:19 mircea_popescu for all i know the guy has a point ; but we've not to date managed to put it in terms i can read.
16:20 asciilifeform i would rather leave it as exercise to the patient reader, mircea_popescu et al, than press it
16:20 asciilifeform either it will make sense - or not
16:20 asciilifeform 'chewing scenery' - will not help.
16:20 trinque this metaphor fart fog is ridicuous
16:20 mircea_popescu anyway - we shall never again find ourselves "in a closed castle".
16:20 mircea_popescu this is a fundamental strategical choice, and it is not getting reviewed. which is why there isn't a geographical republic.
16:21 asciilifeform can't speak for other folx, but i personally sit in a kettle.
16:21 mircea_popescu this has no bearing. it was "all" not "one"
16:21 mircea_popescu every one is always going to be representable as "in a kettle".
16:21 asciilifeform how does this not reduce to 'all in a kettle'..?
16:21 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556932 << i started chipping at the code to get the old log support working, probably a couple of days worth of work
16:21 a111 Logged on 2016-10-19 23:51 mircea_popescu: btw phf did you load the old archives yet ?
16:22 mircea_popescu alrighty.
16:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform if one "reduced" to all then set theory would be a funny place indeed.
16:23 mircea_popescu incidentally, was this jim fellow ever invited over ?
16:24 asciilifeform i only today dug him up...
16:24 mircea_popescu ima leave him a comment
16:24 asciilifeform good idea.
16:24 asciilifeform btw i've been trying to come up with useful scheme standing on paillier, for >decade now, and if mircea_popescu writes one, i promise to read it.
16:25 mircea_popescu i jus' did, and best i can see it is sufficient, and how we'll do stuff like rsa encryption/decryption over uci once gossipd is here.
16:26 asciilifeform if it relies on my being able to send packet from my house without it being immediately logged, some fraction of the time, then i personally cannot much profit from the scheme.
16:26 asciilifeform (and if i could! wouldn't need crypto at all. just shamir's secret-splitting algo...)
16:28 asciilifeform other, unrelated observation, is that delegating computation with a homomorphotron is only +ev if you spend fewer cycles to encipher 'the question' and decipher 'the answer' than it would have taken you to carry out the entire computation in your own comp
16:28 asciilifeform which is you you need the branch
16:28 trinque hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes?
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16:29 asciilifeform if i have to do 6 bignum mults myself, to ask my partner to homomorphicate 1 bignum mult, i am losing.
16:29 mircea_popescu well, here's some lulz http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/vdlxv/?raw=true
16:30 mircea_popescu anyway, comment sent.
16:30 asciilifeform 'the game', in that case, 'isn't worth the candles'
16:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform packet may be logged, this dun matter.
16:30 asciilifeform wow, d00d nuked comments entirely?!
16:30 mircea_popescu notrly. just can't handle html.
16:30 asciilifeform prolly the usual overcompensation for spamolade.
16:30 mircea_popescu i think he'd greatly benefit from mp-wp, but anyway
16:34 asciilifeform (this might be in the l0gz, but asciilifeform's own private, abortive, and ~entirely pointless attempt to 'invent bitcoin' in 2005-6 involved 'homomorphotron' (did not at the time know the term, or of anyone else's work on subj) that simulates 'martian bank' as ordinary computer program but somehow executed 'crypto-blinded' by multitude of independent machines, with the aggregate behaving correctly so long as collusion is below lampo
16:34 asciilifeform rt's threshold)
16:37 asciilifeform ('martian bank' being simply a naive abstraction of 'idealizes swiss bank', where money supply is constant, and i can send from account a1 can send to a2 if and only if i have the privkey for a1, and double-spend - impossible, etc.)
↖ ↖ ↖
16:37 asciilifeform *idealized
16:38 mircea_popescu anyway. the main problem with the algo described being that if i want to multiply 2^2^7-1 with 2^2^11-1 i'm stuck requesting 340282366920938463463374607431768211455 discrete additions, which isn't worth doing in any possible universe.
16:38 mircea_popescu but these have ~nothing to do with the weird objections raised.
16:38 asciilifeform nah, this one is fixable
16:38 mircea_popescu maybe fixable
16:38 asciilifeform you shift-add.
16:38 asciilifeform how do you imagine your cpu mults.
16:38 mircea_popescu yes but even then
16:38 mircea_popescu it could in principle end up too much back and forth.
16:39 asciilifeform you only need log2(N) additions, to mult.
16:39 mircea_popescu sure. log2(340282366920938463463374607431768211455) = 128. which may still be too much
16:40 asciilifeform out of curiosity, why too much
16:40 asciilifeform 'how many bugs shall we tolerate!?' 'seven!'
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16:40 mircea_popescu the overhead is : i encrypt 1 number, and communicate 127 numbers to 127 people then their responses to 127 people.
16:41 asciilifeform this - gets painful, quickly.
16:42 * asciilifeform bbl - meat
16:42 mircea_popescu myeah.
~ 2 hours 7 minutes ~
18:49 asciilifeform unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt
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18:50 asciilifeform i.e. one where all of the coin is premined, but allocated into 'chests', published as privkeys enciphered in such a way as to be bruteforceable with reasonable effort
18:51 asciilifeform possibly this is analogous to eulora's 'copper' ?
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18:51 asciilifeform (i am almost wholly ignorant of how the latter mechanically works - so possibly not)
18:53 asciilifeform the cryptographic mega-puzzler would be re how 'ck coin' could be 'provably fair' (i.e. the ciphertexts provably represent privkeys containing the entire monetary base, in aggregate )
18:53 asciilifeform as i see it , this is not satisfactorily solvable, the author cannot prove that he did not retain a crib sheet to the keyz.
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18:53 asciilifeform (and incidentally this is a problem shared with bitcoin, which may conceivably have been authored by someone with a pill for sha2.)
19:08 asciilifeform in very other lulz, https://archive.is/n7lSx
19:08 asciilifeform ^ linux privesc since 2.6.22 (circa '07)
19:20 thestringpuller http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/RivestShamirWagner-timelock.pdf << is what I read back in 2012 on timelock puzzles
19:20 asciilifeform the basic concept is at least as old as ol' capt. kidd.
19:20 asciilifeform so no one should be excited.
19:21 thestringpuller well the paper is from 1996, it was just intriguing how familiar to PoW it was
19:22 asciilifeform the problem is demonstrably unsolvable in the general case.
19:22 asciilifeform because how the fuck do you show that you have not 'pre-solved' the puzzle.
19:22 asciilifeform whatever form it takes.
19:23 asciilifeform 'proof of work', like 'symmetric crypto', does not in fact have a protocolic (vs promisetronic) existence !
19:24 asciilifeform to put it in more familiar frame, there is no way to prove that the majority of the bitcoin hash rate is not in fact happening on a pocket comp.
19:24 asciilifeform in some closet.
19:25 thestringpuller iirc this was in 2012 logs, cause i remember you saying similar situation to "nLockTime" (altho we discovered more turds there upon further inspection)
19:25 asciilifeform there is no 'trapdoor problem' for which 'intrinsic hardness' has been demonstrated.
19:25 asciilifeform and quite likely there can be none.
19:25 asciilifeform (for one thing, the actual existence of trapdoors has not been demonstrated.)
19:25 thestringpuller you can't prove the trap door function doesn't exist cause you can't prove you don't know the keys to the puzzle
19:25 asciilifeform the burden of proof is on whoever asserts existence.
19:25 thestringpuller the only way to do that would be through some kinda consensus mechanism
19:26 thestringpuller everyone involved somehow consents the puzzle is legit...
19:26 asciilifeform ~appears~ to do so.
19:26 asciilifeform if i owned the closet hasher, i would also carry right along 'consenting', aha.
19:26 ben_vulpes but for how long?
19:27 thestringpuller well isn't solving a block the same as finding a time delay crypto puzzle?
19:27 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: until dead ?
19:27 asciilifeform thestringpuller: 'locktime' has 0 to do with crypto
19:27 ben_vulpes wait, misunderstood. hasher, not pill.
19:27 asciilifeform it was a feature that derps pretend is in bitcoin, but never made it in, made fools of themselves
19:28 thestringpuller i kno that. we discussed in 2012. 4 year discussion now eh?
19:28 asciilifeform because nobody reads the motherfucking code.
19:28 thestringpuller point being seems like solution to trap door is similar to distributed PoW
19:28 asciilifeform not even.
19:29 asciilifeform there exists no proof that finding, e.g., sha2 collision, MUST take ~C cycles per.
19:29 thestringpuller Ah. Atomically. Def. That's in the paper.
19:29 thestringpuller "We have also discussed a
19:29 thestringpuller way to use trusted agents to eciently enable timed release crypto "
19:29 asciilifeform snore.
19:30 asciilifeform aficionados of 'trusted agent' - straight to paypalschwitz.
19:30 asciilifeform into the ovens.
19:31 thestringpuller Yea. hence brokenness. all a snore indeed.
19:33 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the (very old) gedankenexperiment concerned 'what if solving hashes is substantially cheaper than we chumps believe it to be, and promulgator of the coin knows the pill'
19:34 asciilifeform it is a form of theoretically-undetectable 'premine'.
19:35 mircea_popescu http://blog.jim.com/culture/how-to-not-be-offensive/#comment-1442563 << dpood ever show up ?
19:35 asciilifeform notyet
19:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557293 << the question eschewed, of course, is why "modern". and what;s it supposed to mean. very strange sort of amateur anthropology.
19:37 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 20:18 phf: "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin with the first modern group of women to get tattoos [...]"
19:38 mircea_popescu anyway. when i was a kid, tattoos meant a thing and that thing only : she fucks. there exists no majority age in romania, a girl's a woman the moment she starts doing it, which can happen as early as 12, though as a rule it's more around 15.
19:39 mircea_popescu but in any case, no hymen = fair game. and as there was need for easy visual identification to know whom to invite to parties... the sluts got inked.
19:39 mircea_popescu this i suspect is the ancient, tribal, functional usage. "modern" my left foot.
19:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: was there a typical tat ?
19:40 asciilifeform (for this purpose)
19:40 mircea_popescu well some things were important, such as : did she get it somewhere her parents might see ?
19:40 phf sort of like notches on spitfires
19:40 mircea_popescu sort-of.
19:41 mircea_popescu but this is from a very insular culture, where for instance lesbos had it very easy : "does she wear anklet ? talk to her."
19:41 phf asciilifeform: do you have some of your very old logs, can you grep for "sawdust in the gearbox, apparently timeless." and let me know what timestamp on that is?
19:41 asciilifeform phf: 1sec
19:41 mircea_popescu also at a time and place where listening to depeche mode wasn't merely happenstance but more cultural identification and political statement than a trump tshirt
19:42 mircea_popescu and i'd have busted your face on the street.
19:42 asciilifeform phf: Apr 25 17:36:18
19:43 phf would you also happen to remember which timezone that would be? :D
19:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway, they never got semantic, a la ru prison tattoos. most girls got what today'd be called "tribal" shit
19:43 asciilifeform phf: EST
19:43 phf kk
19:43 mircea_popescu ie non-figurative stylisized pattern
19:43 asciilifeform (answering 'what year' is O(N) because idiocy)
19:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in so far as i can tell, modern american tatoo is ~always ~meaningless.
19:44 asciilifeform even among prisoners, there are only 2-3 usefully distinct types.
19:44 mircea_popescu not really. facedots get circles once you finally got the fucker, for isntance.
19:44 phf there's an hour disparity between mp's tmsr-logs and btcbase, so i need to figure that one out..
19:45 asciilifeform phf: they dun have dst in mircea_popesculandia
19:45 mircea_popescu i don't use summer right
19:46 phf oh right gmt uses daylight
19:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what was the face-busting cultural identification earlier ?
19:48 mod6 DM shirt
19:49 mod6 rightly so
19:49 asciilifeform well yes
19:49 asciilifeform but on whom
19:49 asciilifeform hungarians ?
19:49 asciilifeform communists ?
19:49 asciilifeform jewmasons ?
19:50 mircea_popescu also for the sake of humanity, "The teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" is a broken sentence. a teleology is any theory of purpose in realia. so you could say "any attempt if describing the teleology of this phenomena should probably begin" or "the teleology of this phenomena should be expressed in terms of" etc. it dun work like "description" or "philosophy", it works like for "substance" or "relevancy".
19:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform faggots.
19:51 asciilifeform aah
19:51 mircea_popescu see, pre 2000, romania had VERY strong antibodies against what jim&friends discuss in that turkey article.
19:51 mircea_popescu much as the muslim world also does.
19:51 asciilifeform in ru -- still
19:52 mircea_popescu actually i recall ru went through a very acute phase
19:52 asciilifeform much to the lament of jurov et al
19:52 mircea_popescu a sort of localbrew punk/skinhead of the 70s
19:52 mircea_popescu spooked the party even
19:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557323 << possibly the implication of wot not fully digested as of yet.
19:56 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 20:28 trinque: hm, perhaps the problem is one is thinking of completely untrustworthy flat topography of grey-goo nodes, and the other, in-wot nodes?
19:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557353 << well, it's sad, but i can't say i'm disappointed, because i had no expectation otherwise. the psychology of the alt-coin purveyor is very much as exemplified by that covertress chick : ambitious, mommy told her she's special which she believes, and "problems" "can always be overcome". preferably - by someone else. you know, what's washington gonna do about it.
19:58 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 22:49 asciilifeform: unrelated to any of this, i recently went on a dig re crackpot altcoins, and was again disappointed, much of the phase space was never explored. for instance, it does not appear that anyone ever tried a 'captain kidd' alt
19:58 mircea_popescu these aren't usually the same people as come up with anything worth reading.
20:00 asciilifeform eh i did not even say it would be necessarily worthwhile
20:00 asciilifeform just that it would be something other than the usual snore
20:00 Framedragger trinque: i know i know. (i'm young to answer q)
20:01 mircea_popescu the most symptomatic point being that they absolutely fucking never have any kind of reason to dislike anything. ever saw an altcoin head meaningfully discuss the drawbacks in alternatives ?
20:01 mircea_popescu Framedragger what are you, like 26 ?
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20:02 mircea_popescu they're on doge team or ripple team like other people support coventry or wolverhampton. it's to their dumb head immoral to switch teams because the others got better players. ON THE CONTRARY.
20:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557355 << yes. i very much claim that type for eulora. it's been done, turns out you just dunno where to look :)
20:03 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 22:51 asciilifeform: possibly this is analogous to eulora's 'copper' ?
20:05 asciilifeform it relies on a server, neh ?
20:05 mircea_popescu less so than eg ethereum.
20:06 asciilifeform well eulora afaik never claimed p2ptronicity
20:06 asciilifeform it is honest.
20:06 mircea_popescu aha.
20:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-20#1557358 << kinda what makes bothering with p2p in this particular subspace pointless.
20:12 a111 Logged on 2016-10-20 22:53 asciilifeform: as i see it , this is not satisfactorily solvable, the author cannot prove that he did not retain a crib sheet to the keyz.
20:12 asciilifeform aaand yet the alts where author simply pocketed the monetarybase and distributed by hand from own pocket - were laughed off.
20:13 asciilifeform (e.g., urbit!)
20:15 mircea_popescu you mean generally or here ? iirc urbit was eagerly followed for 3-4 weeks here, until it became obvious the author is technically inept and the following he has entirely disinterested in doing any useful work.
20:15 mircea_popescu then the mocking begun.
20:17 asciilifeform was interesting, when it was interesting, ~in spite of~, not because, of the premine.
20:17 mircea_popescu which ties right into the above discussion of altcoin heads (they can't meaningfully criticize means they can't think) and more generally in the difference between republican forum and imperial forum (eg, reddit). the latter exists specifically so no work is done.
20:17 asciilifeform (and was not merely premined, but the 'btcphobic' mr mold had 'coins', of which there are only 256, die ! after 9 moves.)
20:17 mircea_popescu heh. ~equal to us level inflation.
20:18 mircea_popescu incidentally - linux, also premined.
20:18 asciilifeform elaborate?
20:18 mircea_popescu the objection never was as far as i can discern that linus did it (unless of course one is to give voice to the "feminist" cows), but that he seems to have given the keys away
20:19 asciilifeform is 'linux' here the proggy, or the microphone+podium ?
20:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform "premined" generalized here to mean, "you can do any work you want - unless recognized by authority it dun exist".
20:19 mircea_popescu as opposed to you know, bitcoin, where if you do the hash you get the coin, anyone else be damned.
20:20 asciilifeform well, 'do the hash' + 'not get orphaned'
20:20 mircea_popescu yes, there's no such thing as perfect bitcoin wrt work functions.
20:21 asciilifeform the orbit of my personal inner altcrackpot is largely around 'mining is a bug'.
20:22 mircea_popescu i'm unconvinced.
20:22 asciilifeform there are, theoretically, schemes for mineless coin that do not resolve to any obviously idiotic or centralized thing.
20:23 asciilifeform hey if i were 'convinced' - would say.
20:23 mircea_popescu unless they "tattoo" so to speak, ie, burn perfectly fine fat, they can't work.
20:23 mircea_popescu teh gods demand their sacrifice.
20:23 asciilifeform it much depends on what is 'work'.
20:23 mircea_popescu heat waste, fo sho.
20:23 mircea_popescu same meaning here as in law 2.
20:24 asciilifeform it also depends on what is a 'coin' fundamentally.
20:24 asciilifeform recall the multiverse 'coin' ?
20:25 mircea_popescu a coin is a quanta, really. apparently for some reason quantization is mandatory.
20:25 asciilifeform well not only a quanta
20:25 asciilifeform but, in the customary picture, something scarce.
20:25 mircea_popescu no coin is scarce.
20:26 asciilifeform scarce in the 'nobody is obviously wielding an infinite hose of it' sense.
20:26 mircea_popescu the fact that the world existed before all of them should be sufficient proof.
20:26 mircea_popescu it's scarce like time is scarce - you can't make more, just squander what you got.
20:26 mircea_popescu but there's naught more abundant in nature than time.
20:26 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: mine is 'difficulty is nonsensical'
20:27 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes why ?
20:27 mircea_popescu difficulty is a proxy for "are we there yet ?" ; once half the energy available is burned to mine, we're there yet. the difficulty equiv of this can be calculated.
20:27 ben_vulpes because not tied to a finite amount.
20:27 ben_vulpes (since we're talking crackpot alts)
20:28 mircea_popescu of course it's tied ?
20:28 ben_vulpes totally different thing.
20:28 ben_vulpes the infinite to bitcoin's finite, if you will.
↖
20:28 mircea_popescu you'll have to go into proper detail i guess.
20:28 ben_vulpes crackpot alt orbit may not even be stable!
20:29 asciilifeform 'mining is a bug' because, as mircea_popescu even appeared to agree earlier, it is promisetronic.
20:29 asciilifeform accomplishes ~same result as author of coin personally handing out the monetary base, but messier and more expensively.
20:29 mircea_popescu anyway, my interest in alts is like my interest in orc-language "academia" and random gaggles of nubile sluts.
20:29 mircea_popescu who knows, maybe a person may be found, somehow, somewhere, in all this muck.
20:29 asciilifeform nah. afaik it is a dead field.
20:29 asciilifeform like the rest of crypto.
20:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's the other angle of it though. mining forces you to burn half your milk.
20:30 trinque how the hell is it the same result?!
20:30 trinque it costs something
20:30 mircea_popescu ^
20:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: which is moronic if there is any way to avoid it.
20:30 mircea_popescu the bug is the feature.
20:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nope, it's not. it's fundamental.
20:30 mircea_popescu happiness gotta hurt.
20:30 trinque how the fuck, economics does not work that way
20:30 trinque it's a *coin*
20:31 asciilifeform trinque: see thread. mining is not provably costing all of the participants anything.
↖ ↖ ↖
20:31 asciilifeform you - yes, me - yes ; fella with the sha2 pill - ~0.
↖
20:31 trinque yes and I can factor rsa in my head
20:31 trinque where is the evidence
20:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that part is the most dubious, but hey.
20:32 asciilifeform trinque: i suspect that our null hypotheses differ.
20:32 mircea_popescu besides, at some point we'll get rid of sha2 in trb, and then we'll know.
20:32 asciilifeform that'll simply reset the problem.
20:32 asciilifeform with new protagonist.
20:32 asciilifeform which is why nobody's pulled it off yet.
20:32 mircea_popescu kinda why it's not an imperative yet, or any hurry.
20:33 trinque I would have the greatest self control on earth if I found more gold tomorrow than had ever been mined and this did not soon become apparent to everyone.
20:33 trinque and it would have the same effect
20:33 trinque look how bitcoin rips through USG bureaucracies, but this sha2 pill yet hides?
20:34 mircea_popescu a lot can stay hidden.
20:34 asciilifeform no alt stands a remote change against 'grandfather's pistol' unless the author also discovers and demonstrates a 'proof of nonchiseling' .
20:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform unless something starts burning, at any rate.
20:34 asciilifeform aha.
20:34 asciilifeform trinque: 'joseki' and 'shillelagh' are also hidden.
20:34 trinque mircea_popescu: while it stays hidden how does it affect the value of gold?
20:35 asciilifeform trinque: ditto the amd signing key from last month's thread.
20:35 mircea_popescu subjective value, as judged by you ? it doesn't. objective value, as in, the ship of state is being sailed by idiots into the shoals ? 100%.
20:35 trinque the claim was that infinite gold/coin/etc shows itself through inflation
20:36 asciilifeform only if dumped
20:36 mircea_popescu it creates a disparity of power between two identified groups that is not backed by ontological superiority.
20:36 asciilifeform 'there are no alchemists because an alchemist could not POSSIBLY keep it in his pants' is no argument.
↖
20:37 trinque nor is "usg shall surely be able to increase interest rates to mop up the money it printed"
20:37 mircea_popescu if men are better and women worship men, the situation is stable and prosperous. if men are better but women discover they can fuck it all up by gathering together and engaging in the wail (term of art), then society collapses
20:37 mircea_popescu this was the mechanism fucking babylon fell by, and in the intervening 5k years it worked like a charm every single time.
20:38 trinque the free heat shall leak
20:38 mircea_popescu the rate is controllable by the owner though.
20:39 trinque hm
20:39 mircea_popescu see, this is how the cunt that runs on perl works. "oh, dick moving inside is detectable".
20:39 trinque then no-mining is possible with a philospher king
20:39 mircea_popescu yes, it is. and if it moves at a slow enough pace you'll enjoy it.
20:45 trinque asciilifeform: ftr the argument wasn't about whether kept in pants; it was that if kept in pants, might as well not exist
20:45 trinque but I see that either construction ignores fucking privately
20:46 mircea_popescu yeah, it wouldn't be kept in pants THAT well is the problem. your argument is solid in principle, but there's a crack in it.
20:46 thestringpuller i can see your bulge!
20:46 asciilifeform trinque: idea is that a unit of hashicity might cost you, i, and 1,000,001 others -- H, but might cost 'satoshi' 1/1,000,001H.
20:46 asciilifeform can be kept in pants arbitrarily well.
20:47 asciilifeform like any other alchemy.
20:47 asciilifeform esp. if it is one man's secret.
20:47 mircea_popescu anyway, if mining is a bug, then the philosopher king is a backdoor.
↖
20:48 mircea_popescu experience shows it's perfectly fine to have a philosopher king, however utterly suicidal to have a philosopher king's throne. bolt is fine, nut will kill you.
↖
20:48 asciilifeform 'monetary base handed out by hand' equates to an evaporating throne
20:49 mircea_popescu in principle at least yes
20:49 asciilifeform so potentially works.
20:49 mircea_popescu it's certainly how eg medieval japan coin worked out.
20:49 asciilifeform any imperial coin, really.
20:49 mircea_popescu no i mean, "medieval japan" AS a coin. which it was.
20:49 mircea_popescu everything's a coin.
20:50 asciilifeform ah as in europe.
20:50 mircea_popescu yeah.
20:50 mircea_popescu you got however much worth of koku production. well there yo ugo.
20:50 mircea_popescu much like the medieval eu "here's three weirs and a village fulla sluts. you're a knight now."
20:50 trinque I kinda see how wot relationships could confer certain amount of newly "mined" coin, like ^
20:50 asciilifeform trinque: see the 'multiverse gossipcoin' old thread
20:51 asciilifeform was about, largely, this.
20:51 mircea_popescu trinque the whole reason wot and forum are at the basis of republic is this orthogonality which reinforces the bit-coin
20:51 * trinque pulls up to reread
20:51 mircea_popescu which is how we prevailed historically, against all the other groups
20:51 mircea_popescu who were backed, at best, by orthogonal idiocy.
20:52 trinque best damned human sort function, seems like.
20:53 thestringpuller oh man. cryptofeudalism here we come.
20:53 asciilifeform trinque: it was a crackpot algo which i suggested, ages ago, where there is no objective coin, but instead, e.g., mircea_popescu can mint any amount (with the total base being public) of mircea_popescucoin, which in turn trinque accepts for certain rate of trinquecoin, etc, etc., integrated with wot
20:53 asciilifeform sorta how fiatola works already at the sovereign level.
20:53 asciilifeform but less promisetronic (public, e.g., base.)
20:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is more or less ripple.
20:54 asciilifeform iirc ripple was promisetronic though.
20:54 asciilifeform i.e. a cynical scam.
20:54 mircea_popescu i did not like ripple, as i don't like this, because it requires a level of financial acumen that is not available in the general population
20:54 mircea_popescu this would be the ultimate in assembly line phding
20:54 asciilifeform hey i never learned to fly a jet fighter;
20:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, sure, it was a cancer on top of an avorton. but this doesn't change the fact that even if you cleaned up the tumor, you'd have an aborted fetus.
20:54 asciilifeform doesn't mean that jet fighters are useless.
20:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's worse than that : it's too late for you to learn now.
20:55 asciilifeform what is an ace pilot if not 'assemvly line phd'.
20:55 asciilifeform naturally.
20:55 asciilifeform *assembly
20:55 mircea_popescu i do not wish to construct systems that much need, let alone require, or depend on, ace pilots.
20:55 asciilifeform it is too late for grown men to learn damn near anything
20:57 asciilifeform and, eh, 'v', or trb, or various other items contemplated here, fall much closer to the jet than to the tv set.
20:57 mircea_popescu so they do. but not THAT far.
20:57 mircea_popescu they're still things grown man could learn,
20:57 mircea_popescu notwithstanding all the insistence grown man is usually seen putting in avoiding it
20:58 asciilifeform 'general population' is barely qualified to operate a public shitter.
20:59 mircea_popescu this is mostly because of deliberate stupidification - by clerics in the east, by "educators" ie clerics in the west.
20:59 mircea_popescu general population is capable, as practically verified by my whip holding hand, to do all sorts of wholesome things.
21:00 asciilifeform how did it go, 'horse that can count to five is a remarkable horse, but not a remarkable mathematician'
21:01 mircea_popescu aha
21:02 mircea_popescu there is some of that, of course.
21:02 asciilifeform to briefly go up the stack, 'gossipcoin' is not useless by virtue of being a mach10 jet. i cannot fly it. but it is conceivable that mircea_popescu could. and/or, folks not even yet born, could.
21:03 mircea_popescu no, the problem is that the only way to find out "couldn't" is by their crashing it, and the whole construction has a low crash tolerance.
21:04 mircea_popescu think of "race cars on space station".
21:04 asciilifeform what would it even mean for a multiversal per-operator altcoin to 'crash' ?
21:04 asciilifeform you can have a car crash.
21:04 asciilifeform but ~cars~ cannot crash.
21:04 asciilifeform as a class.
21:04 mircea_popescu !~lemon market
21:04 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Error: "lemon" is not a valid command.
21:04 mircea_popescu !#s lemon market
21:04 a111 12 results for "lemon market", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=lemon%20market
21:04 asciilifeform eh we already have one of those.
21:05 mircea_popescu and yes, cars can and do crash all the time
21:05 trinque maybe that gossipcoin, but what of the one where coins exist, are minted according to position in the wot-graph?
21:05 mircea_popescu hence symbolics.
21:05 asciilifeform trinque: consider elaborating
21:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i was expecting you to mention... dirigibles
21:05 mircea_popescu but no, think : the vertical monitor.
21:05 mircea_popescu "cars" have crashed and burned more times than it's worth mentioning
21:05 mircea_popescu where is ac power ? where is etc etc
21:06 trinque a gentleman's weight according to his ratings in the wot determine the rate at which coin mints to his key
21:06 mircea_popescu idiots were hoping bitcoin will go same way. who knows, it just might've.
21:06 mircea_popescu trinque you're thinking of a wot that doesn't exist.
21:06 trinque how so?
21:06 mircea_popescu it's not a centralized thing, you're trying to build a string out of a vector.
21:06 asciilifeform trinque: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it << oblig.
21:06 asciilifeform 'The Web of Trust is not, as the name would seem to imply, an oilfield in which trust plays the role of oil, and you deploy some apparatuses and other devices to extract the trust therewith.'
21:06 mircea_popescu wrong datatype, "wot" may not be used as "basis for central behaviour"
21:07 trinque doesn't have to be centralized.
21:07 trinque there's no center in what I described
21:07 mircea_popescu not in the sense of "unethical to do so", but in the sense of practically impossible.
21:07 mircea_popescu then how does coin work ?
21:07 mircea_popescu understand, a coin must be centralized to exist.
21:07 mircea_popescu because it works with a market, which is the definition of centralization, "all good things flow to the city [to participate in the marketplace]"
21:07 asciilifeform unless it is a 'gossiptronic coin', as discussed earlier, but the applicability of the name 'coin' is then questionable
21:08 mircea_popescu it is improper to call that a coin
21:08 asciilifeform i'd call it an 'ob'
21:08 asciilifeform to steal erik frank russel's name.
21:08 mircea_popescu you could call it a semen, seeing how it's pretty much exactly "how much cock i'd suck"
21:08 mircea_popescu a problem female teenagers have struggled with for eons, because... well... expecting wrong data type.
21:08 asciilifeform (1950s writer, had space folk using something quite like subj)
21:09 asciilifeform a certain qty of 'ob' from, e.g., brothel, could indeed refer to a certain number of litres of spooje swallowed, etc.
21:10 mircea_popescu no no it's a much finer point
21:10 mircea_popescu it'd be literally a measure of social intercourse
↖
21:12 trinque dunno if I like being named governor of brittania being a matter of spooge guzzling.
21:12 mircea_popescu how do you suppose eleanor got aquitanie ?
21:12 mircea_popescu anyway. i was speaking metaphorically ok!
21:12 trinque lol
21:13 trinque anyhow it's an interesting idea, but I figure wild redefinitions of money run the risk of angering the gods.
21:14 mircea_popescu well, how'd one go ?
21:15 mircea_popescu http://www.joeydevilla.com/2016/10/18/hey-america-youre-great/ << in other lulz.
21:15 trinque seems relationship is the conduit over which money flows; deciding one day that arteries shall be blood because after all they're so related...
21:16 trinque moving to Tampa indeed
21:17 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-06#1423970 << thread.
21:17 a111 Logged on 2016-03-06 15:01 asciilifeform: or we can lift from a mircea_popescu article, 'Another aspect is that new blocks are mined by one group (miners) but have to be stored in perpetuity by another group (nodes). This creates a situation where X (users) pay Y (miners) to inconvenience Z (nodes), which is unsustainable not to mention sheer nonsense.'
21:17 asciilifeform (possibly there were others, but afaik this was the canonical.)
21:17 mircea_popescu this part of mining is a bug, except it is evidently no part of mining
21:19 asciilifeform mining is a solution to specific set of problems. just like pressurizing your house with sarin and walking around in a teflon suit is one possible answer to rats and mice.
21:20 asciilifeform (tru story! ru chemistry students would occasionaly make, e.g., sarin, as a very effective answer to... rats, mice, whatever else infested the cellar..)
21:21 mircea_popescu yes, but the problem mining solves is very strictly "make it impossible for hillary to pretend she matters"
21:21 asciilifeform potentially this mouse is solvable without sarin.
21:21 mircea_popescu or whatever other equivalent, that dumb bitch who was born a dude and tried to run off with coreboot
21:22 asciilifeform and ditto.
21:22 asciilifeform (in the end you get sarin-resistant mice. this is not even a physical impossibility, iirc mongoose needed an elephant's dose to fall down)
21:23 asciilifeform quite likely the current crop of miners is already this.
21:35 mircea_popescu mongoose is specifically toxin resistant though. it's what it does for a living
21:36 mircea_popescu like africans in africa.
21:36 asciilifeform he has slightly nonstandard ACHE and number of other ferments.
21:36 mircea_popescu aha
21:37 asciilifeform (we had mongoose ache crystallographied 1 floor down from my chair, at one point, can't recall precisely why, it had already been done elsewhere. possibly it was in-complex)
21:45 mircea_popescu in other lulz, jamelle bouie (slate "chief political correspondent", if you didn't give a shit before) along with everyone else is damned pissed at trump. "The act of conceding, in other words, is vital to the functioning of democracy. It confers legitimacy on the winner of an election, giving him or her a chance to govern. To refuse to concede, to deny that legitimacy, is to undermine our democratic foundations."
21:45 mircea_popescu hurr.
21:45 mircea_popescu why the fuck would ANYONE confer legitimacy on the usg ffs.
21:48 mod6 stockholm syndrome
21:48 mircea_popescu either that or all the checks it keeps writing.
21:48 mod6 indeed, both.
21:48 trinque guy later said, "I'll respect the results if I win"
21:49 mircea_popescu was pretty lulzy.
21:49 mircea_popescu oh how he toys with America's heart ; and how that slutty heart does throb for still more toyings.
21:58 * mircea_popescu is pretty happy at all this "oh noes, trump won't promise to admit defeat if he loses", because all signals point to a complete rehash of the brexit thing, whereby clinton is credited with ~50% of popular vote and 55% of electoral colege, but realises 35% of popular vote and 30% of electoral college.
21:58 mircea_popescu and THEN the libertards WILL STILL WHINE about "election was stolen"
21:59 mircea_popescu because when they do it, it's all good. just when others do it it's "an attack on our democracy"
21:59 mircea_popescu our being the keyword there, not democracy as the naive reader may imagine
~ 34 minutes ~
22:33 trinque hell, when the hairdo's justice department gets done with them, who'll be left to run their machine? I guess after that it's bernie 2.0
22:34 trinque people talk about him killing the republican party but if anything that's rumbling about the clinton foundation is true, and he wins, it's going to kill both
~ 18 minutes ~
22:52 mircea_popescu i don't see he has any way to extricate himself from sending ~half the dem party machine to jail
22:52 mircea_popescu of course, this already happened once to it, back when it was centered on tammany hall, and it survived.
22:55 mircea_popescu the history thereof is interesting - dems were actually a pretty respectable party back when democratic meant something ; then the progressive cripple showed up and smashed it.
~ 19 minutes ~
23:15 asciilifeform tammany -- respectable??!
~ 33 minutes ~
23:48 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> everything's a coin. << AHA, the Qntra "altcoin" tag
23:53 ben_vulpes https://open_nsfw.gitlab.io/
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