Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2016-09-16 | 2016-09-18 →
00:09 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: lel that looks like infamous 'vicegrip', 'the wrong tool for every job'
00:11 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Read description. Even Vicegrip gets perverted nowadays
00:11 BingoBoingo CrescentVice!
00:17 ben_vulpes if i had to cart around the right tool for every possible job my toolbox would be infinitely large
00:18 ben_vulpes just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
00:18 ben_vulpes praytell, what'd be the right tool for that job?
00:18 ben_vulpes "acetylene torch!!1"
00:18 * adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
00:19 ben_vulpes yeah mhm right next to the pressurized vapor line that's a grand idea.
00:19 ben_vulpes adlai: is (back) in school?
00:19 adlai go ahead, mircea_popescu, say that the gzipped txt fits better in yours
00:19 BingoBoingo <ben_vulpes> just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench. << PB Blaster!
00:20 adlai ben_vulpes: starting a degree in chemistry. this is the first time i'm attending university, dunno if high school counts for (back)
00:20 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: is that in some way i'm missing a torque delivery device?
00:21 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Patience! Followed by channel locks.
00:22 BingoBoingo Gotta let rust lose the batle to penetrating agent before delivering torque
00:23 BingoBoingo Alternately you could use a sawzall
00:23 ben_vulpes i am a barbarian, use wd-40 for these applications.
00:23 ben_vulpes near the pressurized oh and did i mention heated vapor line?
00:23 ben_vulpes yes a sawzall, grand idea
00:24 ben_vulpes i at least try to not scald myself during demo
00:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
00:25 asciilifeform ( 'Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystems do not always conceal messages.' G.R. Blakley, I. Borosh. 1979. )
00:26 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: denfinitely sawzall
00:27 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: sawzall and day laborers, hardly that much of an additional cost
00:28 asciilifeform sawzall >>>>> http://static.wixstatic.com/media/d83b3d_72ff342904414e72a142a5aebb76c6ed.jpg_srz_p_540_360_75_22_0.5_1.2_0_jpg_srz
00:28 asciilifeform oblig.
00:28 asciilifeform https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RTujDrqbwBU/TYOb5OUEYOI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/XIUS7Bki-LI/s1600/Fuck+Saw+01a.jpg << correct use.
00:29 BingoBoingo Correct, actual multitool
00:31 BingoBoingo In other noose http://www.bnd.com/news/local/article101989932.html#wgt=trending
00:31 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: this happens regularly.
00:31 covertress gawd, i know how you all feel https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1368118.msg16267321#msg16267321
00:32 asciilifeform http://www.bnd.com/news/local/crime/article102204712.html << BingoBoingo , even better lulz from same rag.
00:32 asciilifeform 'A Madison County grand jury returned an indictment Thursday charging a Godfrey teenager with terror-related offenses. Keaun L. Cook, 18, has been charged with one count of material support for terrorism and one count of making a terrorist threat, both of which are class X felonies. He is accused of making verbal threats of mass casualty events at multiple locations in Madison County, which have not been disclosed by law enforcement.
00:32 asciilifeform Madison County State’s Attorney Tom Gibbons has said that Cook was in communication with a known terrorist organization overseas via multiple electronic means. Police were first aware of Cook on Aug. 24 after Madison County sheriff’s deputies were summoned by a family member regarding Cook’s mental state. Family members have said he suffers from multiple mental illnesses.'
00:32 BingoBoingo Oh, alf spoiling a roundup xtend
00:33 asciilifeform 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
00:33 asciilifeform from moving forward.” '
00:33 asciilifeform precrime squad winz!11111
00:34 asciilifeform 'I'm building a Blockchain-as-a-Service (BaaS) corporation and a foundation, to guide and support the open source, public blockchain, KR.'
00:35 asciilifeform why am i reading a tardstalk link.
00:36 covertress jhvh1, recd your tx from 5 days, 0 hours, and 29 minutes ago. evah heard of a phemon called a hurricane?
00:36 jhvh1 covertress: Error: "recd" is not a valid command.
00:36 asciilifeform for fuxxsake.
00:36 * asciilifeform back to bed, with 'lure of the integers', bbl.
00:37 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: sounds terrific
00:37 ben_vulpes lol covertress jhvh1 is a bot
00:37 covertress ha! silly me.
00:37 ben_vulpes have you ever heard of a thing called a 'bouncer'?
00:38 covertress seems i should visit more often
00:38 ben_vulpes it persists an irc connection in spite of whatever third-world problems your corporeal situation brings upon you.
00:38 adlai alternatively just run irc in tmux on a server
00:38 covertress my sit is def 3rd wrld atm
00:39 ben_vulpes adlai: yeah well that'd be an adult's bouncer, neh?
00:40 adlai nah i feel like a child using it, because i failed to configure znc properly so i lazed away how i always do
00:40 adlai maybe... maybe this is how to get in touch with the inner child?
00:40 covertress mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
00:40 adlai sic transit gloria covertris
00:40 ben_vulpes lool
00:41 adlai covertress: on a nicer note, i believe par for this course is to not just "read 6mo of logs", but actually spend 6mo reading logs, before planning/attending a conf
00:42 phf apparently whatever i was doing with cmucl no other lisp can handle
00:43 covertress mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
00:43 adlai phf: in other news, i just crashed btcbase.org by clicking search
00:43 adlai and before it died, the logs looked out of date.
00:44 phf adlai: you missed the part where things were broken since 6pm or so
00:44 ben_vulpes covertress: "ethereum foundation"?
00:44 ben_vulpes what is this 'ef'
00:44 adlai phf: didn't miss it (i read scrollback! or at least, skim...), i thought it was back up
00:45 adlai i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
00:45 adlai who knew typos could happen in the retina
00:45 ben_vulpes adlai: no a111, no fresh logz.
00:46 adlai covertress: regarding "2016-08-29 18:36:38 +covertress mircea_popescu i've been asked to extend you a similar offer... to write for steemit xD", i'm very curious how much you have earned (ie, withdrawn btc from an exchange after selling) from that shitpile
00:46 phf adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
00:47 adlai oh yes add this to the pile of sbcl warts. it sucks at growing the heap dynamically.
00:48 covertress chill, adlai, i've nevah posted to steemit
00:48 asciilifeform http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << what exactly uses so much as 1MB, phf ?
00:48 asciilifeform much less 500
00:48 phf asciilifeform: all of log
00:48 asciilifeform why does it live in lispspace?
00:48 asciilifeform db has no search ?
00:48 phf if i wanted to keep log in sql why would i even use lisp to begin with?
00:48 asciilifeform ahahahaha lolk
00:49 adlai covertress: oh lol. then why are you offering people to shit in a toilet you've warmed?
00:49 adlai * never. in a toilet who's seat you've never warmed.
00:49 * adlai apparently still misses the occasional selfatari
00:49 covertress adlai: ru 12?
00:50 * adlai was just talking about how in-touch he is with his inner child
00:50 phf asciilifeform: but even ignoring that, which i think was an interesting design challenge (go audit postgresql), sbcl falls over when actually trying to shuffle in memory data around
00:50 covertress lol 2nd person to prove a point
00:50 covertress xD
00:50 asciilifeform which sbcl was this, ftr ?
00:51 adlai which point?
00:51 phf sbcl-1.2.7-x86-linux
00:51 covertress nn kiddie
00:51 asciilifeform phf: ick
00:51 asciilifeform try with pre-1 ?
00:51 phf you have a canonical sbcl i can throw the problem at?
00:51 ben_vulpes $rate covertress -1 snr
00:51 covertress lol
00:52 asciilifeform phf: aha. when i get back to actual comp, i'll dig
00:52 phf kk
00:52 ben_vulpes !!rate covertress -1 snr
00:52 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/ogj1j/?raw=true
00:52 covertress lol
00:52 phf i start it with --dynamic-space-size 2500, it doesn't complain about "can't allocate", but it caps at 1gb. anything over that falls over
00:53 ben_vulpes !!v 41CEAB5E3A51B2AAF3A24A9084BC967BA3A7D2F1D21197A4CF404D6112C8D96A
00:53 deedbot ben_vulpes rated covertress -1 << snr
00:53 covertress lol
00:53 asciilifeform sic transic decimation-with-cunt
00:53 adlai covertress: you've evidently passed the "register PGP key and operate it" barrier, but you're failing the "not annoy people" barrier. you're not the first person to do this, and won't be the last. I suggest you NOT take this personally, figure out why you're failing this test, and... better luck next time.
00:53 ben_vulpes 1) do your six months. 2) don't talk trash on your betters.
00:53 asciilifeform *transit
00:53 phf ben_vulpes: ty
00:54 * adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
00:55 * asciilifeform pictures dept. of ninjashogunate in meeting hall, 'what did we fuck up this time'
00:56 ben_vulpes beheading uppity peasants is a privilege, and a duty of the privileged.
00:57 ben_vulpes mas?
00:57 covertress fu, minnions, if you cant take a joke
00:57 adlai honestly though, isn't this more akin to culling a peasant child?
00:57 ben_vulpes she's like 40, no child any more
00:57 * adlai is not one to judge people's age by the color of their bits
00:57 ben_vulpes although the spelling...
00:57 covertress i was not speaking to you all any way
00:57 covertress gn mircea_popescu
00:57 ben_vulpes "you can't fire me, i quit!"
00:58 ben_vulpes begone, harpy.
00:58 covertress lol
00:58 adlai covertress: you're speaking here to pretty much anybody who ever reads a publicly available log
00:58 adlai if you want to speak to somebody privately, send them a message (i've sent you one, did you see it?)
00:58 asciilifeform !!rate covertress -1 insistent idiocy
00:58 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/8xgz7/?raw=true
00:58 adlai some people refuse private communication (eg mircea_popescu ) but that doesn't mean that shouting on his lawn is for his ears only.
00:59 covertress i reject your reality, and submit my own
00:59 asciilifeform !!v BEFEFE64D099D3EA094ADFC311B9D3BC5CB96B14252251B8913A1C48C1830AD4
00:59 deedbot asciilifeform rated covertress -1 << insistent idiocy
00:59 ben_vulpes oh you submit do you, that's top kek
00:59 covertress lol
00:59 adlai ever heard of "reality kicks back"?
00:59 adlai or maybe the old idf proverb: "you spit on the army, the army wipes. the army spits on you, you drown"
01:00 asciilifeform why is the turd still floating, trinque ?
01:00 ben_vulpes !!gettrust covertress
01:00 deedbot L1: -1, L2: 2 by 4 connections.
01:00 ben_vulpes !!down covertress
01:01 trinque asciilifeform: what turd
01:01 mod6 exactly.
01:01 asciilifeform trinque: eh it went.
01:01 trinque ahaha
01:01 ben_vulpes i mean i had to flush it, twice
01:01 mod6 bah-woosh
01:01 adlai ben_vulpes jiggled the handle but i suspect $up in PM may still work
01:02 * adlai doesn't presume to understand the full inner workings of deedbot, of course; but that's what seems to have happened with the first -v
01:02 trinque !!gettrust deedbot covertress
01:02 deedbot L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
01:02 trinque nope
01:02 adlai oic
01:03 * adlai takes off hat?
01:03 * trinque lives in a gentoo livecd nao
01:03 ben_vulpes don't bother installing the os
01:03 mod6 heh
01:03 ben_vulpes just leave the usb plugged in
01:03 ben_vulpes what dma
01:04 trinque you know what's sad? I'm actually running off of an SD card in a USB reader
01:04 trinque because that was on my desk
01:05 mod6 I'm so glad this week is over.
01:05 * trinque drinks to that
01:08 mod6 fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
01:11 phf asciilifeform: i'm seeing weirdest bugs with sbcl
01:12 asciilifeform perhaps deserves bl0g post..?
01:12 phf i can load any of the patches on the v graph, but if i hit genesis (exactly same code, etc.) suddenly balloons to 1gb, and dies with heap exhaustion
01:12 asciilifeform i'd be curious to see if they are reproducible in 'toy' scene
01:13 mod6 this is some wild stuff man
01:13 asciilifeform phf: please consider posting the src.
01:14 asciilifeform http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#38 <<< see also.
01:14 scriba Logged on 2016-09-17: [02:03:09] <asciilifeform> unless folks ~publish~ the magical bug-inducers, i am inclined to agree with the old iddish proverb
01:14 adlai more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
01:15 phf what's the old yiddish proverb?
01:15 adlai mann tracht und stann lacht
01:16 asciilifeform the one where плохому танцору... etc
01:18 asciilifeform now, i ~believe~ phf in re poetteringerized sbcl being a rusted chunk of ???
01:18 asciilifeform but gotta reproduce the bug. or we're doing the mpb thing.
01:19 * adlai is unfamiliar, digs, finds "When a shlimazl goes dancing, the musicians' strings break"... or maybe asciilifeform meant "girl who can't dance says music sucks"?
01:20 * asciilifeform bbl.
01:21 phf asciilifeform: well, i'll have to figure out what's going on anyway, to get it working. i was saying sbcl is poetteringerized in abstract, by lateral telltale signs. i didn't expect this code to not simply work. fwiw, despite freenode disconnects the code ~was~ working
01:24 phf one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
~ 26 minutes ~
01:50 ben_vulpes phf: i miss search quite a bit.
01:51 ben_vulpes half compliment, half complaint.
01:51 phf i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
01:52 ben_vulpes that's be quite nice.
01:56 adlai what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
01:58 ben_vulpes what are good drugs?
01:58 * adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
01:58 scriba Logged on 2016-08-26: [06:09:42] <BingoBoingo> ;;later tell adlai You work step 1 yet?
01:59 adlai the only good drug is a dead drug! (only heathens lick live toads)
02:01 adlai obviously i don't deeply believe that drugs can be ordered objectively by any parameter (other than therapeutic index, for ones that have known LD50 in humans), but my personal favorite "good drugs" ordering would have cannabis above nicotine and caffeine, and mescaline above alcohol
02:06 ben_vulpes is mescaline particularly titratable?
02:06 trinque adlai: would you have been in a ward if you hadn't taken a bunch of drugs?
02:07 trinque I've done all kinds of psychedelics; just asking.
02:07 trinque I don't believe the "thereaputic" angle for a moment.
02:08 adlai oh dear, we're on to the difficult questions now. punting yours aside for a second, here's an easy question: what does the "therapeutic index" have to do with therapy? answer: none. it's LD50 (median lethal dose) divided by threshhold dose (minimum to feel effects)
02:08 trinque your evasion answers just fine.
02:08 adlai not really.
02:09 adlai the "just fine" answer is: "no, i was hospitalized as an indirect result of conversations which would not have gone the same way without my reaction to certain situations involving drugs"
02:11 adlai the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
02:11 ben_vulpes i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
02:11 trinque aha
02:12 adlai ~median~ lethal dose. like median height, at standard atmospheric pressure.
02:12 ben_vulpes if variance is high enough that number can very easily be bogus.
02:12 adlai but yes, there is for example no known LD50 for lsd
02:12 ben_vulpes i suspect variance is high.
02:12 trinque adlai: there's a you-go-fucking-schizoid-50
02:14 adlai that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
02:14 trinque I've taken "heroic" doses too.
02:14 trinque and tripped oodles of times
02:14 phf i know a few people who went crazy in close connection to psychedelics, but of course no way to establish correlation/causation
02:14 trinque knew I was spending something each time.
02:15 trinque and yes, you can "go down a dangerous road" on them, and this is related to but not directly caused by dosage
02:15 trinque ordeal is therapeutic; psychdelics maybe if they cause a beneficial ordeal
02:16 ben_vulpes some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
02:16 phf psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
02:17 adlai my main takeaway from the 'experience' (including 46 days of involuntary commitment in the closed ward) is that there is no such thing as crazy. sure, some people are out of touch with consensus reality, but you can define that quite precisely, and a lot of "crazy" people do not meet this definition.
02:18 ben_vulpes wow what was the ic like
02:18 * adlai wouldn't be surprised if some non-"crazy" people are out of touch with consensus reality, but have learned how to fake it
02:19 adlai so many questions without simple answers! i'll stick to the bright side - i ~halved my kyu at go, and spent more time playing guitar than i had in the previous year, combined.
02:19 adlai (halving kyu = doubling skill, at least at the relevant levels)
02:20 trinque crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
02:20 trinque that the definition changes over time... of course, because it's a statistical matter of being an outlier
02:22 * ben_vulpes kicks rocks, whistles, looks around, wouldn't know the first thing about being out of touch with consensus reality
02:22 trinque one wot's crazy is another wot's comrade?
02:23 adlai i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
02:24 trinque that animal can be considered crazy just as a paper can be rejected by peer review.
02:24 trinque -or- he doesn't determine crazy; we do.
02:25 adlai to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
02:26 adlai if, however, she came here trying to get us all to form tulpas, and arguing for personhood of tulpas... then maybe.
02:26 trinque wtf "everyone's feelings matter" bullshit is this
02:26 adlai i'm actually saying that they don't.
02:26 adlai feelings don't make you crazy ~because~ they don't matter. actions make you crazy.
02:26 trinque is it a dead person's "tulpa" ?
02:27 trinque if your argument requires "words have no meanings" kindly fuck off.
02:30 adlai i respect alice's belief that her creator is dead, to the same degree that i'd respect somebody's belief in reincarnation, or resurrection, or transubstantiation. words have meaning, beliefs can be false, but you don't have to act on false beliefs. i'd count somebody who's physical actions are in touch with consensus reality as non-crazy, by the "sufficiently in touch with consensus reality to not die by
02:30 adlai accident" metric
02:30 ben_vulpes not starving is not crazy?
02:31 trinque so we're doing mind body duality, and mind-onanism doesn't count because ???
02:31 ben_vulpes i walk by some folks every morning who appear to still be alive, yet are entirely solidly insane.
02:31 trinque there is no fucking such creature as something which believes falsehoods and whose actions are not impacted causally by them
02:31 adlai the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
02:33 ben_vulpes odds are that $group is pretty dubm
02:34 adlai so, i agree that there's some definition of 'crazy' by which tulpa people are crazy, but i think it MUST also include pretty much every religion, and probably also people who have significant net worth in shitty (or any) fiat
02:34 trinque a piece of nonsense here is trying to create universals where the context varies widely.
02:34 trinque for me to stand here and starve would be insane.
02:34 trinque for a somalian, I don't know, maybe that's Tuesday
02:35 adlai then you have even greyer areas like hypnosis, or those who "believe in belief" but don't actually live by any religious commandment
02:36 adlai trinque: i don't think of this as mind-body duality at all. a better analogy would be the phase of some matter. if you cool it enough, it seems solid; zoom in and you see it's still moving, but not enough to break out of formation.
02:36 trinque wtf is the point of words but to model the world as usefully as possible
02:36 trinque the question of the usefulness of a tulpa cannot be posed because "tulpa" is not a thing.
02:37 * ben_vulpes looks sadly at his imaginary friends
02:37 phf what about poetry
02:37 adlai stupid != crazy
02:37 trinque adlai: a brainputer behaving as though false inputs are present is crazy.
02:37 ben_vulpes words are useful for parting fools from their money trinque
02:37 ben_vulpes aaaaaaaaay
02:38 ben_vulpes !#variable
02:38 trinque phf: I dunno that anyone claims the content of a poem exists
02:38 ben_vulpes !#search variable
02:38 adlai in fact i basically equate sanity with 'more like housewife', with the latter defined as in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-08-2015#1255364, so i'd say that once you get sane enough, you're pretty stupid.
02:38 a111 Logged on 2015-08-29 14:35 asciilifeform: turn it all the way down - you get a housewife
02:39 trinque rather, one that is figurative enough to enter into the insanity thread
02:39 trinque or we would be counting authors as madmen too
02:39 phf ben_vulpes: it's s, but i suppose adding "search" is not a bad idea
02:39 * ben_vulpes flails at the bots
02:40 adlai ahaha i like ben_vulpes's definition for the use of words
02:40 * adlai has had jobs where the obscene bulk of his produced work was words
02:41 adlai well, job. but it happened, and lasted for about as long as their money did.
02:42 * ben_vulpes off, wedding in the woods this weekend
02:43 adlai oh, words are also useful for sex. these days if you sex without words first, you don't pass peer review.
02:44 trinque the trouble of not choosing your gossipd-node peerings wisely
02:46 phf she speaks: o, speak again, bright angel
02:46 adlai obviously there are exceptions in environments where speech is impossible (language barrier, noise club, etc) but i'm gonna bbl as well, reviewing math in anticipation of next month's classes
02:46 adlai !#s speak!
02:46 a111 7 results for "speak!", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=speak!
02:46 adlai wd phf
02:47 adlai !!rate phf another one bots the lisp
02:47 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
02:47 adlai stupid useless scalar
02:47 adlai !!rate phf 3 another one bots the lisp
02:47 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/k7c5t/?raw=true
02:49 adlai !!v 90F444B853D4E59A1173E3C66AF0F51987D8DD012D927056B953D26EDD47EE07
02:49 deedbot adlai updated rating of phf from 2 to 3 << another one bots the lisp
02:49 adlai !!help
02:49 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
02:50 phf повышаю профпригодность
02:50 adlai closing thought - is there a way to get deedbot to barf all ratings somebody has made, other than enumerating all nicks present in the wot?
02:51 phf !!wot
02:51 trinque did you read that there help
02:51 deedbot http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/iktjr/?raw=true
02:52 trinque !!ratings adlai
02:52 deedbot http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/cty1h/?raw=true
02:52 adlai lol, neither ratings nor wot appear in that there help!
02:52 trinque aw crap
02:53 trinque fix it when I am further along this trail of gentoo tears
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
03:54 phf asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-29#1255209 << http://www.stihi-rus.ru/1/harms/31.htm
03:54 a111 Logged on 2015-08-29 04:24 phf: biggest disappointment of my schools years, turns out that "flea balloon" idea doesn't quite work
03:57 phf !!up gabriel_laddel
03:57 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
03:58 phf to continue on this evening's drug theme, we have gabriel_laddel, take it away, gabriel
03:58 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543759 << Ty pdf. Kids, if you are going to do drugs, be smart about it. People will try and pass off all sorts of nonsense as LSD, and some of those compounds are unsafe(?).
03:58 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
03:59 gabriel_laddel Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
04:00 gabriel_laddel Blotter paper with actual doses on it should be perforated so the area takes up about 1/8th of your thumbnail. Anything larger is probably going to put you in a psyc ward.
~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
05:20 adlai sorry but that's silly. "real shot glasses should be 45mL. anything larger is probably going to put you in the cooler for the night"
05:22 adlai the note about blacklight though is spot on (but don't leave it exposed to UV (ESPECIALLY SUNLIGHT) or chlorinated water) for prolonged periods, or it'll become an inactive compound: https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/explore.php?domain=tk&id=5362
05:23 adlai phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
05:25 adlai !!v 3F234265DF42B2885436A14C2107694E8814BC85D443E0C69A3A4062FF53198B
05:25 deedbot adlai rated gabriel_laddel 1 << has been helpful both in private and in [re]public
05:27 adlai ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
05:27 adlai another interesting-yet-plausible one is http://www.legiontheory.com/
05:30 adlai also relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmv66p1XBE (text at http://electricsheep.me/concept2.html for those allergic to pixels)
~ 4 hours ~
09:30 mircea_popescu oh the logs montresor!
09:33 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#236 << but why ? really, there's more demand for whores in the stripping and cocksucking side of the trade than in the programming side of the trade.
09:34 mircea_popescu and yes, waiting tables IS how you start a whore career ; no exceptions. all waitresses are apprentices of the trade.
~ 23 minutes ~
09:58 mircea_popescu and in random ancient trilema links, http://trilema.com/2010/lectia-de-filosofie/
~ 35 minutes ~
10:33 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/kuffs/ << Trilema - Kuffs
~ 29 minutes ~
11:03 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543847 << so do 10,000,001 other things, including ~all types of laser print paper...
11:03 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 07:59 gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
11:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543854 << novelized as stephenson's 'snow crash'
11:04 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 09:27 adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
11:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this "purple under a blacklight" stuff is pretty lulzy. "a blacklight" ? what wavelength is this black.
11:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: americanism for 'uv-b lamp'
11:08 mircea_popescu iirc lsd is unstable under photon bombardment.
11:09 asciilifeform adlai even pointed out helpfully.
11:09 mircea_popescu besides, what's purple, the indole ?
11:10 mircea_popescu tons of other stuff have the same configuration
11:10 asciilifeform noshit.jpg
11:10 asciilifeform incl. the fire retardant in laser paper.
11:10 mircea_popescu ah yeah
11:10 mircea_popescu o nm, apparently others :p were well ahead here.
11:13 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#252 << is this jewish code for you know ?
11:16 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#271 << sure, but that's 80s ; early automotive work is you know, 50s
11:16 mircea_popescu iirc the patent expired in the 60s
11:19 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#285 << practically speaking, google-gender-idiocy for metals.
11:19 mircea_popescu because yes, metals are rarer than shit much like few men, many redditards.
11:19 mircea_popescu Framedragger what happened to scriba then ?
11:21 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#291 << which will lead to another round of rent hikes, because every loser out there will be "oh, but house is made with METALLIC components!"
11:21 mircea_popescu anyway, this is ridoinculous. let's try kicking it.
11:22 mircea_popescu hm i guess it doesn't reload either ?
11:30 shinohai ChanServ SET #trilema GUARD OFF ?
11:31 shinohai Oh but you aren't booting chanserv :P
11:32 mircea_popescu i have no idea what this is
~ 20 minutes ~
11:53 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543401 << sbcl codebase ~is~ cmucl codebase, so all the same people who wrote above wrote majority of sbcl. newman's work in adding sane bootstrapping is reproducable by doing early diffs and perhaps should come as vpatch on top of cmucl since it's particularly clean. but here's the thing, the way cmucl does bootstrapping is borrowed directly from a lisp machine, and breaks down precisely because the
11:53 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 02:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i've never even ~heard~ of any of these folk, nor read their spew, until this year.
11:53 phf "whole machine" approach was jammed into a c vm layer. but if we were to actually attempt a lisp on hardware hack, cmucl's approach would involve considerably less complexity
11:54 asciilifeform phf: speaking of, i dug out my sbcl stash, oldest one appears to be 1.0.37 (loaded Mar 29 2010)
11:54 mircea_popescu phf what i don't understand is this bizarre notion that c has some sort of priviledged relation with asm, which is and remains the only hardware language.
11:55 mircea_popescu so no, no hardware hack. learn how to make machinecode lisp yes ?
11:55 mircea_popescu exactly same way c learned. not like the fucking stack works in c ffs.
11:55 phf mircea_popescu: there's machine code in cmucl, the problem is bootstrapping.
11:55 mircea_popescu i do not understand this bootstrapping. what bootstrapping ?
11:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-05#1007663
11:55 a111 Logged on 2015-02-05 05:06 asciilifeform: * (disassemble '(lambda (x) (+ x 3)))
11:56 asciilifeform thing's got a compiler.
11:56 mircea_popescu if the processor gets a push, the processor will push. what are you bootstrapping ?
11:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: do you recall the 'gnat is built with gnat' thread ?
11:56 mircea_popescu sure.
11:56 asciilifeform well, that.
11:56 asciilifeform is what is bootstrapping.
11:56 mircea_popescu i do not see how it relates.
11:56 asciilifeform where one gets the first build.
11:56 phf asciilifeform: nah, that's not actually it though
11:57 mircea_popescu yes, one instance of your machine-lisp running on x86 will be required to compile a machine instance of your lisp. so ?
11:57 phf because gnat is built with gnat is related exclusively to .core
11:57 mircea_popescu no c involved.
11:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: getting 10,001 pyramid slaves to hand-compile the compiler into asm with ~guaranteed same semantics~ as the original, isn't even a financial problem, it is problem with 'planet hasn't this number of people who can meaningfully participate'
11:58 mircea_popescu you need the following : a) an item which inputs lisp text and outputs opcodes ; b) and sits down on x86 bare metal. clearly to produce a running isntance of this item you will need a running instance of this item. nevertheless : you do not need c, nor any "bootstrapping" outside of this.
11:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform gcc produces opcodes out of c. if tll can't produce optcodes out of lisp, the problem is lisp.
11:59 asciilifeform what's tll ?
11:59 mircea_popescu same thing as trb, but with lisplisp instead of cc
11:59 asciilifeform and again, e.g., sbcl, compiles. question is what do you compile ~it~ with
11:59 mircea_popescu aka "the leal lisp"
11:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform itself.
12:00 mircea_popescu if it doesn't compile ITSELF it is not a compiler, ftr.
12:00 mircea_popescu it is an interpreter, or a parser, depending.
12:00 phf mircea_popescu: an assembly that result out of compilation is the problem
12:00 mircea_popescu why ?
12:01 phf because on assembly level you still have things like where things go, how you address those things and how you call subprocesses
12:01 mircea_popescu so ?
12:01 phf well, c-machine assembly level is not particularly good, but it's not guaranteed to be consisten either
12:01 mircea_popescu no, i get it, "vneumann architecture is not lisp friendly". spare me, the vagina is not cock friendly.
12:01 mircea_popescu point is, turning machine. equivalent to all others.
12:01 phf that's not what i'm saying
12:02 mircea_popescu say it again ?
12:02 phf c-machine assembly level has a certain shape to it. when you write int foo { bar(); } an assembly of a certain pattern gets spit out
12:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the equivalence, in practice, is a null - different structures take vastly disproportionate effort and moving parts to implement, depending on machine design.
12:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform shut up and work more. phf ok. so ?
12:03 phf mircea_popescu: cmucl's assembly has a different pattern in order to support all the tricky-in-c-trivial-in-lisp code behaviors
12:03 mircea_popescu so ?
12:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: we had a thread, but it would appear that original author of subj went into the jungle and never came out, so i dug out copy, https://web.archive.org/web/20111227150315/http://www.stripedgazelle.org/joey/dream.html << scheme r4rs interp. written in asm by hand.
12:03 mircea_popescu aha!
12:04 mircea_popescu and yes, evidently A LOT of asm by hand will go into this. guess what ? this is exactly what the fuck the early c people who made c possible in the sense of having rms hijack it 20 years later did.
12:04 phf mircea_popescu: so in order to bridge the gap between the two you need knowledge of both patterns. cmucl has knowledge of its own, it doesn't also want to have knowledge of all the shit that goes into gcc
12:04 asciilifeform much simpler animal than common lisp, or for that matter than any type of compiler. but imho it is the correct way to bootstrap.
12:04 mircea_popescu without this - there'd be no c, just oddly "bootstrapped" nonsense on top of who the fuck even knows.
12:04 asciilifeform and actually where i began when i was doing x86.
12:04 mircea_popescu phf this is ~nonsense.
12:04 phf how come?
12:05 mircea_popescu it's self evidently nonsense, "my dream girl does not have any center of gravity defined for her tits. i'd like to meet her."
12:05 mircea_popescu would you ? or wouldn't you ?
12:07 phf in the town of shithole everyone has to wear knee high boots because roads are made of shit, if you want to do business in that town, would wearing knee high boots, while you prefer silk slippers make any kind of sense?
12:07 mircea_popescu yes.
12:07 mircea_popescu it is way the fuck better than wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootrsrap"
12:08 mircea_popescu just find a way to silk-line wellingtons.
12:09 phf well cmucl's approach is to hire some locals to carry a palanquin
12:09 mircea_popescu ie, building coke machine for itself, then wondering at results.
12:09 phf hindsight demonstrates that this might not be the best approach, because locals keep dropping the palanquin, etc.
12:09 asciilifeform phf: except they are on close terms with the bottle and fall over regularly.
12:09 asciilifeform planting you face-down in the mud.
12:09 phf correct
12:09 asciilifeform in the end, no cleaner than if you had walked.
12:09 mircea_popescu dumbest approach ever, wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootstrap" is way better.
12:10 mircea_popescu phf management, if half competent, could have spared you the need for hindsight. this is evidently wrong.
12:10 phf but some people ~also~ tried silk-lined wellingtons, and those are even worse. trinque, once he decides to read clisp source code, will realize that the thing is ~unrecoverable~ under the weight of C-specific issues
12:11 mircea_popescu and in general - the controlling point here is the two-jews-in-shitter joke.
12:11 * asciilifeform read, and knows this
12:11 mircea_popescu phf that some boys tried to talk to girls and didn't get anywhere is scarcely an argument.
12:11 phf mircea_popescu: what would be the correct approach?
12:11 asciilifeform pretty much every c proggy >2k or so lines is similarly unrecoverable 'under the weight.'
12:11 phf write whole thing in c?
12:11 mircea_popescu there is no need to have c specific issues in lisp. seriously. write the asm.
12:12 asciilifeform aaaaaand this is how mircea_popescu arrives on the island where i sat in 2010.
12:12 mircea_popescu you keep going back to this "my code runs in javascript via php" approach to life. it's nonsense. there's 0 need for c.
12:12 phf well, for what it's worth rewriting cmucl vm in asm would be a gnarly but straightforward exercise
12:12 mircea_popescu not a vm.
12:12 asciilifeform it is great island, lush vegetation, but very little edibles.
12:13 mircea_popescu or i guess... wtf does vm mean here ?
12:13 mircea_popescu is kernel a "c vm" ?
12:13 phf yeah, sorry that was ambigious
12:13 phf no
12:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in this context, folks often say 'vm' when they are really describing emulator of a sane cpu arch.
12:13 phf no!
12:14 phf vm in this case means something closer to x86 bios
12:14 mircea_popescu your application for thick condoms has been denied. rawdog that skank.
12:15 mircea_popescu lisp is supposed to exist out of what, six primitives or some such ? write them in asm. once you're done the job's ~done.
12:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that's the easy part
12:17 phf mircea_popescu: that's not what the layer between os and lisp does in the case of sbcl/cmucl. it explicitly doesn't do primitives, because those are, like you said, written in lisp, that's compiled into native bytecode (using VOB's, i.e. chunks for assembly)
12:17 phf *chunks of
12:18 mircea_popescu ok.
12:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the difficult part is 'which skank.' it isn't 1988 and there is no standard pc arch.
12:18 mircea_popescu pick one.
12:18 mircea_popescu then pick another one.
12:18 mircea_popescu then keep going.
12:19 phf asciilifeform's arguing from a completely different architecture
12:19 mircea_popescu phf i'm not so sure that's what i said though.
12:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is gonna be the fpga thread all over again, isnnit. fact is, the 10,001 man-years are not available, and certainly not six times every morning before breakfast.
12:19 mircea_popescu looky : either something's fundamentally broken with lisp, or else it has no "architecture" ; much in the way purple has no shape.
12:19 phf sbcl/cmucl already compiles whatever code you ask it to to native, architecture specific assembly, that's not the C layer's role
12:20 mircea_popescu phf so then what the fuck is the problem ?
12:20 asciilifeform i'ma let phf finish before i return to the iron bit.
12:20 mircea_popescu alright.
12:21 phf mircea_popescu: problem is that when you do a execution like ./foo on unix, ~unix~ expects "foo" to contain certain bits and do certain kind of work to appease unix upfront. that work is specific not to "x86" but to "linux v 1.1.2, compiled on full moon, by three blind monks"
12:22 mircea_popescu and in other hardware-software interactions, http://67.media.tumblr.com/5e92d02a732524921361231d041a7b34/tumblr_nptt458VbX1u1u4hvo1_400.gif
12:22 mircea_popescu phf there is no unix.
12:22 mircea_popescu what unix ?
12:22 phf linux
12:22 mircea_popescu no linux either.
12:22 mircea_popescu you just said, lisp compiles to native bytecode.
12:23 phf i did
12:23 mircea_popescu so then ? i didn't import any linux anything.
12:23 phf well, but you're trying to run it on your linux correct? or we're talking pure hardware layer
12:23 mircea_popescu nope.
12:23 mircea_popescu i am trying to run it on an x86.
12:23 phf but how do you start it?
12:24 mircea_popescu it produces asm for the x86, it runs on it.
12:24 phf i mean do you start it from inside a linux?
12:24 mircea_popescu suppose for this discussion it's already started ; else yes, you need a running machine to compile your image as we said.
12:24 phf no no
12:24 mircea_popescu no dude, forget fucking linux altogether. who cares.
12:24 phf but it's the whole point!
12:24 mircea_popescu the whole point of stupid, yes, "let's make ada work in php!"
12:25 mircea_popescu "it's great because well documented"
12:25 phf programs that have to run on linux don't behave like dos COM files
12:25 mircea_popescu what ?
12:25 phf you know dos "com", which was just a flat sequence of bytecodes and when you did foo.com it would just start executing foo.com with the first byte
12:25 mircea_popescu now you're going to import dos into this discussion ?
12:26 mircea_popescu holy hell! the processor takes opcodes. you produce the opcodes. that's it!
12:26 phf we agree on that point, and lisp is capable of doing this
12:26 mircea_popescu so then let it do this and no more.
12:27 phf it doesn't do anything more than that
12:27 mircea_popescu well i don't see any c/linux/dos/etc in here ?
12:28 phf are you running it on a linux system? because ~if and only if~ that you are you have to bring something extra into the picture
12:28 mircea_popescu i am not running it on a linux system.
12:28 mircea_popescu lisp is the system.
12:30 mircea_popescu there's the following parts : hardware, including memory, cpu, disk etc. we shall call this x86 for short, even if it's a longer story ; tll, which is a compiler. does exactly same as the gcc does in linux : takes lisp code, spits out bytecode ; and finally the lelnel, which does what the kernel does in linux.
12:30 mircea_popescu now, x86 i can already buy, which of tll, lelnel don't exist and what's the excuse.
12:31 phf well, you don't need C for that and there are no excuses
12:31 phf just nobody done it
12:31 mircea_popescu so then for shame, all these dickheads going around holding their heads in their hands and talking about dumb shit while doing no useful work.
12:31 mircea_popescu linux happened in a few years, need i remind you, and those were earlier, drier years.
12:32 phf the thing that ascii mentions he'd pay for "cmucl on hardware" explicitly involves ripping out C code and then doing necessary work to support some minimum set of x86 drivers like keyboards etc.
12:32 asciilifeform i blew years on it and then realized that the hardware is shit .
12:32 mircea_popescu tll-lelnel can exist by 2018.
12:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but you also realised the hardware was shit that time we went to olympus and venus asked you to fuck her.
12:32 mircea_popescu tell you what : the hardware's the hardware and the software's the shit.
12:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the hardware is very literally shit. e.g., ever heard of acpi ?
12:33 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543731 << All we've got is today, it works when you work it (tm)(r)
12:33 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 05:58 adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
12:35 phf mircea_popescu: the real reason it's not been done is because it's fucking hard and nobody cared enough to spend the necessary man years
12:35 mircea_popescu sure, sure.
12:35 mircea_popescu that's also the reason steam engine wasn't done by greeks.
12:35 mircea_popescu too fucking smart for their god damned own good.
12:35 asciilifeform the other bit is, just as in the fpga thread, by the time anyone ~does~ spend the man-years, the requisite hardware is unavailable. see, e.g., 'movitz'.
12:35 mircea_popescu being dumb pays. being smart, not so much. hence http://trilema.com/2011/povestea-celor-trei-imparati-smecheri-si-a-celor-trei-negustori-fraieri-fabula-in-versuri-ilustrata/
12:36 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543758 << Stereotypical last drunk seems to be X beers and a blackout where X<4
12:36 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
12:36 phf the linux approach actually's been done twice, i.e. write something shitty, but it boots and then improve it until it's somewhat ok. there's https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ and https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
12:36 mircea_popescu what killed these ?
12:37 phf the problem is that then you're stuck redoing many man years of rewriting cmucl/sbcl in them
12:37 mircea_popescu i can't parse that. say again ?
12:37 asciilifeform building railroad bridge out of toothpicks.
12:38 phf movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers, they are just shitty ones. they are good enough to boot an os on x86, but they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written those
12:38 mircea_popescu how is this a drawback ?
12:38 mircea_popescu i mean, is there some fundamental reason such can't be written ? that's a problem. otherwise...
12:39 asciilifeform no fundamental reason. just as railway bridge could, in principle, be glued from toothpicks.
12:39 mircea_popescu so then it seems to be that it is an offense before the gods and an insult to man when in any discussion of lisp anyone proposes any other solution than "pick either movitz or mezzano"
12:40 phf i think one could take either of those and turn them into real systems, the way we did with trb, but it's the same class of work
12:40 mircea_popescu fuck all your dumbass sbcl cmucl mcclim et all
12:40 asciilifeform and the hardware ~is~ shit. boot up one of these (if you can actually get it to boot.) and say hello to 1 fps graphics, disks without dma (you don't know what these feel like until trying personally), nic that works when the moon is full strictly, etc.
12:40 phf i'm not sure mezzano boots on native hardware, movitz i did boot, and it's basically what you would expect out of DOS
12:40 mircea_popescu you apparently don't recall early linux worth twopence.
12:40 asciilifeform movitz is worse yet because it is ~married~ to 32-bit x86
12:42 phf well, only in a sense that it's written for it? i'm not sure married is the right word
12:42 mircea_popescu be all this as it may, time to grow up and stop pretending adult lisp is anything but these two.
12:42 asciilifeform phf: a MB of hand-written asm, and reliance on x86-32isms, e.g., segmentation, is 'married'.
12:42 mircea_popescu "emulated" toys for chitlines, dear god.
12:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they're dead ends.
12:43 mircea_popescu everything else is.
12:43 asciilifeform also is.
12:43 mircea_popescu make a third, but in this direction, not in that, if you will.
12:43 phf asciilifeform: oh, i thought for some reason they had civilized VOPs and such
12:43 asciilifeform phf: why take my word for it, thing was published, eons ago, read.
12:43 phf asciilifeform: that wasn't a challenge, i was just disappointed
12:44 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu has it, the sane approach involves 0 c and 0 unix, and i came to this conclusion in '07.
12:44 mircea_popescu incidentally, the tasks are here in my vierws overstated. linux had the tasks as hard as described, and it did break through, on shittier internet with fewer people milling about. lisp already has c code it can read for many of the drivers etc. this is major advantage. easier job to come 2nd.
12:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: try to understand that linux is barely a thing at runtime. whereas a lisp os has to make up for 10,001 idiocies of the hardware, e.g., lack of garbage collector, lack of type bits in every (yes) machine word that get tested on every (yes) arithmetic operation, etc.
12:45 phf mircea_popescu: people basically come to same conclusion, and then when it comes to putting in "2 years of living from inside an os without youtube" balk
12:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the two are really not comparable.
12:46 mircea_popescu what can i tell ye.
12:46 asciilifeform and if you use ANY 'c code in the drivers' you get gabriel_laddel.
12:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform those are not disadvantages but advantages.
12:46 asciilifeform spoon of shit in barrel of wine.
12:46 mircea_popescu and i don't propose use c code whatsoever.
12:46 phf asciilifeform: i suspect mp mean's "read it in c and write in your own language"
12:46 mircea_popescu but because you can read it, you get to see vendor magic numbers.
12:46 mircea_popescu phf has it.
12:46 phf which would be consistent with the v threads
12:46 asciilifeform pointing out that the intrinsic complexity far exceeds linux, bsd, whichever c os, kernel.
12:46 mircea_popescu eh get out.
12:47 mircea_popescu intrinsic addable-value far exceeds, yes, which is why we're even talking.
12:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: understand, addition there is no longer 'ADD rax, rbx' but a pound of type bit checks and possible code paths on failure or type-promotion etc.
12:48 mircea_popescu if you're not dumb you probably implement matrix-calls for functions.
12:48 asciilifeform things that the silicon ought to be doing. and ~WAS~ doing in 1976.
12:48 phf but yes, cmucl in this channel started because i was thinking of porting it to hardware. it's obviously what every lisper wants/tries to at some point. in order to achieve it though, i kind of have to read and grok and read again the code the cmucl code, which is what i've been doing..
12:49 mircea_popescu ie, "this our lisp os only works on processors with no less than 8 cores. because we keep all these things pre-loaded and ready to go, and then every time you try to add we do 16 checks in one tick. one op mujlti data ftw!!1"
12:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: believe or not, i thought of this.
12:50 mircea_popescu phf imagine if you will, the beauty of a system where "threads" make no sense in the first place.
12:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it dun work because, again, pc arch is retarded. the processors fight over the bus.
12:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so good for you! none of this is any sort of genius, just systematic refusal of dumbassery.
12:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform ah but they don't have to!
12:50 asciilifeform they share the bottleneck.
12:50 mircea_popescu yes but you can definitely play to it.
12:51 mircea_popescu in short, unwittingly perhaps, the extant x86 architecture ACTUALLY FAVOURS running a lisp machine over running a c machine.
12:51 phf mircea_popescu: well, from that perspective "no threads!!" is kind of irrelevant, because it's just less things to try and get operational on raw hardware. pretty sure nyef had to pull threads from sbcl when trying to get it running on raw hardware..
12:51 asciilifeform let's say the 8 cores operate on same memory location. how do they maintain cache coherence when writing output ?
12:51 mircea_popescu phf this is not at all waht i meant.
12:51 phf mircea_popescu: i missed the point
12:52 mircea_popescu asciilifeform also not what i meant.
12:52 mircea_popescu yea, this is a nutty point, so let me write it out in detail.
12:52 mircea_popescu in c, no checks are performed and you're welcome to go fuck yourself. consequently, c exposes internals of cpu to user, so as to better hang himself. as seen eg in case of eulora client usage of one core and a trillion other places.
12:52 asciilifeform no, it was a ~reasonable~ point, but when you go and try to actually implement it, on actual iron, it drives you to nuttery. because the thing is encrusted with unfathomable layer of undocumented turdolade and 'no this doesn't actually work, because fuckyou'
12:54 mircea_popescu in lisp as discussed here, and generally, a lot of checks are to be performed. this happens to jive well with a matrix calling system for functions and the muiticore design of cpu. because you as lisp will just a) maintain a matrix of all checks to be perfromed as functions and b) keep them permagoing on all processorss. so this way, the cpu count influences internal parallelism in the os, and thus os speed ; not program spee
12:54 mircea_popescu d per se. except in the benefit that its checks will progress this much faster.
12:54 mircea_popescu that make any sense ?
12:55 asciilifeform yes. and it made sense to me in '07. but not in '10 when i understood how the actual extant pc iron works.
12:56 mircea_popescu you documented any of these somewhere, so phf doesn't need to do himself ?
12:56 asciilifeform which is not at all like the naive, reasonable conception pictured here.
12:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is documented, and you won't like it at all, e.g., here -- http://developer.amd.com/resources/developer-guides-manuals
12:57 phf well, the main question is "what's a reasonable baseline" to keep you inside the os long enough so that you can keep hacking at it
12:57 asciilifeform and yes, ALL of it is - unfortunately - pertinent.
12:57 asciilifeform there is not, and will not ever be, a 10 page useful compression of it.
12:57 asciilifeform the whole bag of shit is required.
12:58 asciilifeform i have the dead trees, they fill most of a shelf.
12:58 phf in case of linux reasonable baseline was a dialup telnet
12:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i was looking for something stictly in the following formula : as part of trying to execute subset X of task Y part of recognizable-primitive Z because so-and so, i came to the method k for theoretical reasons t1 throiugh tn ; attempting to implement it i encountered situation Q even through this makes no sense ; trying to adapt it i encountered exception Q.e1 which is contrary to design philosophy, and attempti
12:58 mircea_popescu ng alternative I encountered explicit block N which etc.
12:58 asciilifeform phf: linux wasn't trying to multiprocessorate every arithmetic instruction etc.
12:58 mircea_popescu nothing else is useful.
12:58 phf because linus wanted to telnet to his university machine, he could do his jerking off on a remote system, while chipping away at his surrounded setup
12:59 mircea_popescu learn to document in that format because else we're stuck redoing your work while you sadly cry on the side.
12:59 phf asciilifeform: nah, different kind of reasonable baseline
12:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: a good chunk of what i've done here since showing up is to try and fill in the gaps in the 'pioneer with arrows in his back' part of my www.
12:59 asciilifeform with variable success, sure.
12:59 mircea_popescu hey, i'm not saying you're bad
13:00 mircea_popescu just pointing out that without the exact formula described, knowledge's not terribly useful, and deifnitely not well communciable.
13:01 phf fwiw i went through the same exercise, and on account of being less of a depressive came out with different attitude
13:01 asciilifeform http://support.amd.com/TechDocs/42301_15h_Mod_00h-0Fh_BKDG.pdf << and before anyone asks, it is neither available in any other format, nor accurately convertible -- is sufficient illustration of my point. flip through it and weep.
13:01 mircea_popescu see, but this isn't supposed to be a comparison of fucking emotional states.
13:01 mircea_popescu good god of all goofs!
13:02 * mircea_popescu goes away to punish someone for something.
13:03 * phf is finally free to go get breakfast
13:04 asciilifeform lol
13:05 phf take movitz, take lice https://web.archive.org/web/20080624230234/http://www.emmett.ca/~sabetts/, add tcpip stack to it, add irc. what else one needs for tmsr-ing
13:06 asciilifeform phf: we don't even have sane vga on ~linux~ yet.
13:06 asciilifeform (i.e. sans proprietary turds)
13:07 phf if bios driven 640x480 is good enough for terry davis, it's good enough for me
13:07 asciilifeform cue mircea_popescu: 'it works great on my t40! 640x480 is enough for anyone'
13:07 asciilifeform phf: it is possible to make a useful machine with 0 video (serves x11 over nic).
13:08 asciilifeform phf: unfortunately is is ~not~ possible to do without, e.g., disk dma.
13:08 asciilifeform not if you want to do anything resembling, say, bitcoin node.
13:08 asciilifeform or logs db. or, or.
13:08 phf nfs :>
13:08 asciilifeform lolfs.
13:08 phf genera it up all the way
13:23 asciilifeform i worked at a rupturefarm once where we made a massive cluster of diskless boxen.
13:23 asciilifeform the realities, as often is, differ from the idealities.
13:24 asciilifeform link - saturates.
13:24 phf oh yeah of course
13:25 asciilifeform and box that has persistent storage drop out from under it, ever, for any reason, is in a sad state.
13:25 asciilifeform and with networked 'disk' this is a regular thing.
13:27 phf if i were to bootstrap a lisp os from nothingness, i'd just save-lisp over network (or to a drive, depending on which one i figure out how to do first) every once in a while, and yes it's eww and completely suboptimal, but it'll be enough for me for a "i can do practical shit with this system"
13:27 asciilifeform how will you save the nic state registers ?
13:28 asciilifeform the disk controller's ?
13:28 asciilifeform good chunk of'em aren't even memory-mapped.
13:28 asciilifeform (and many of the ones that are, don't read correctly)
13:29 asciilifeform lemme guess, your save-lisp would just ignore the peripherals, which get inited every time.
13:29 asciilifeform welcome to lisp on linux.
13:29 asciilifeform where there's a lisp layer and a liquishit layer.
13:30 asciilifeform and massive layer of gas mask (with many holes) between them.
13:30 phf yes.
13:30 phf slightly less liquid shit though :p
13:30 asciilifeform i'm not convinced.
13:30 phf weren't you saying something about cleaning latriness
13:31 asciilifeform cleaning has a meaning
13:31 asciilifeform thing gets ~less dirty~
13:34 phf fwiw save-lisp of nic state and disk controller state is always a question of degree. either will have to be re-initialized in general, same way as it's careless and possibly meaningless to "save state of running lathe with a component"
13:35 asciilifeform let's do what mircea_popescu asked and work a concrete example.
13:36 asciilifeform i hunted for years and found what imho is the simplest GB/s-capable nic, the rt8168. here is the linux driver, https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/tree/master/src
13:36 asciilifeform https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c << 13,255 lines alone
13:37 asciilifeform and a good chunk of it is https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c#L11871
13:37 asciilifeform (1000s of lines of magicola)
13:38 asciilifeform i actually sat for 6 months or so and reimplemented this thing in asm
13:38 asciilifeform and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
13:38 phf why asm??
13:39 phf write a handful of systems level vops, write rest in lisp
13:39 asciilifeform phf: the thing needs real-time interrupt handling just to init.
13:39 asciilifeform and evidently i kept missing some detail.
13:40 asciilifeform none of the warmup process is in any sense debuggable, either
13:40 asciilifeform if the thing dun go, there is physically no way to determine why it dun go.
13:40 asciilifeform i suspect that NO ONE has ever drivered this thing from scratch. not the winblows folks, either.
13:40 asciilifeform everybody simply took vendor's magic routines.
13:40 phf can you attempt a warm up multiple times without power cycling?
13:40 asciilifeform phf: nope. it wedges.
13:41 asciilifeform oh did i mention that the pci bus has to be correctly set up also ?
13:41 asciilifeform and if you think the bios does this for you, you're probably posting from 1995.
13:42 asciilifeform oh and witness the sheer number of busy-waits, e.g., https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c#L4885
13:42 phf why would i think that? i'd probably go to a lesser N/s target until i can get it to work
13:42 asciilifeform any and all of these are opportunities for deadlocking.
13:42 asciilifeform phf: what target ?
13:42 phf until i can get ~that~ to work rather. then i wouldn't be as pressed to get r8168 working or bust
13:43 asciilifeform there ISN'T a 'simple' nic.
13:43 asciilifeform that you can buy.
13:43 asciilifeform it is a mythical thing, that does not exist on the market.
13:43 asciilifeform they are ALL at least as bad as linked item.
13:43 asciilifeform i had ~all the extant ones brought in (this was a commercial project) and obtained data sheets, etc.
13:44 phf i've had on linux nic drivers before and in 2005 or so not all of them were 20k+ lines that's for sure
13:44 phf *hacked on
13:45 asciilifeform oh did i mention that i surveyed other folks' attempts, e.g., https://github.com/ReturnInfinity/BareMetal-OS/blob/master/os/drivers/net/rtl8169.asm
13:45 asciilifeform ^ does not successfully run any example of the actual chip i was able to get my hands on.
13:46 asciilifeform this is the kind of thing that drives folks to the bottle, to the nuthouse.
13:47 phf i'm not convinced that this is not the case of "mp's t40 is too old and slow"
13:48 asciilifeform phf: if you'd like to try to, e.g., bitcoin, on a 10M nic, be my guest.
13:48 phf ha
13:48 asciilifeform (not even speaking of network disk! or x11 etc.)
13:48 phf ha!
13:49 asciilifeform or serving up www.
13:49 asciilifeform under ddos.
13:49 phf you're just shifting targets here
13:49 asciilifeform nope. describing the various uses of a comp
13:49 asciilifeform at any rate, i would have implemented a 10baseT nic driver, IF ANYONE COULD SOURCE THE FUCKING CHIP
13:49 asciilifeform no one could.
13:49 asciilifeform outside of museum.
13:50 phf if your nic can't accomodate for those things, then your computer can't do those things, but it might not be a problem for the first year
13:50 asciilifeform again, this isn't a case of 'it'll be a 10baseT until i get around to X', it's a case of 'init or go cry'
13:50 asciilifeform the thing doesn't fallback to some 'pretent it is 1995' mode
13:50 asciilifeform where you don't need the 30k lines.
13:51 asciilifeform *pretend
13:51 phf ok, you've convinced me that all is hopeless and there's no point in trying
13:51 asciilifeform well, if anyone can find me a nic !
13:51 asciilifeform it is possible to make a very useful box where ONLY cpu/ram and nic work.
13:52 asciilifeform can even do without disk, for certain applications
13:52 asciilifeform (it can, e.g, readily serve www, or even gossipd etc)
13:53 asciilifeform working with the 8168 woke me up to the fact that i was wrong when naively thought that hardware were still made by sane folk
13:53 asciilifeform it isn't
13:54 asciilifeform consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
13:54 asciilifeform before you can proceed
13:54 asciilifeform and this is absolutely sop.
13:54 phf ok, but nobody here thinks that, the whole point i'm trying to make is that there are ways to overcome the ennui to do what needs to be done
13:55 asciilifeform how? by masamuneing the thing into a c turd ?
13:55 asciilifeform no thx.
13:55 asciilifeform for one thing, you're then stuck with linux's pci and interrupt stack.
13:56 phf why would i even entertain that thought, it should be quiet clear at this point that i've at no point suggested or plan to use C in a lisp os
13:56 asciilifeform well let's work the example phf
13:56 phf no way
13:56 asciilifeform how would you deal with the nic
13:56 asciilifeform and if your answer is 'buy another one' i'm all ears
13:56 asciilifeform and wallet - open
13:56 phf you're saying it's straight up impossible (or approaching that) to get, say, movitz doing networking on real hardware hardware, and i'm calling shenanigans
13:57 phf in terms of what movitz offers of course (without bringing in pre-compiled C blobs)
13:58 asciilifeform it isn't impossible, there were various experiments, e.g., https://github.com/dym/movitz/blob/master/losp/x86-pc/dp8390.lisp
13:58 asciilifeform but they involved iron that is no longer obtainable in any qty.
13:59 asciilifeform to the point that i have nfi even if the linked driver runs at all.
13:59 phf any meaning 1, >1, >10, >tmsr army size?
13:59 asciilifeform 8390 was a product in 1995.
14:00 phf well, main question is what you going to plug isa into :p
14:00 asciilifeform the spittoon, phf, is in one strand.
14:01 asciilifeform !#s spittoon
14:01 a111 47 results for "spittoon", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=spittoon
14:01 asciilifeform >> http://pastebin.com/rG1TxJt2 << oblig.
14:01 phf all that analogy did for me is that every time i think asciilifeform, i remember the fucking spittoon
14:01 asciilifeform lel
14:01 phf sort of like there was always that one kid who'd eat bugs on a dare
14:02 asciilifeform nah that's many. the one kid is that one who eats bugs without dare.
14:02 phf :D
14:04 asciilifeform http://www.osdever.net/documents/WritingDriversForTheDP8390.pdf?the_id=56 << back in the day, they even had asm snippets in the ds.
14:05 phf pretty sure tits used to be bigger too
14:06 asciilifeform now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes.
14:06 asciilifeform so potentially we could 'scheme in asm with uart' on that.
14:06 asciilifeform and go from it, to ???., very slowly.
14:06 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#292 << test
14:07 mircea_popescu god damn it.
14:07 mircea_popescu so apparently every saturday is "mp can't process logs" day.
14:07 phf http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#292
14:07 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 03:34 trinque hums don't fear the reaper
14:08 phf i can just leave this on, until his bot is operational
14:08 mircea_popescu ty.
14:08 mircea_popescu now let's catch up with this monster.
14:10 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#308 << i thought we had this encrypted-drive vs encrypted-file megatheread, but anyway. the notion of an encrypted ~container~ is fundamentally braindamaged. stick to encrypting items.
14:10 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 03:37 trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
~ 20 minutes ~
14:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: interestingly enough, we had this thread prior to the 'block ciphers don't even exist' thread.
14:31 asciilifeform so at the time, the logical objection was 'pwned comp will merrily present the familiar pw prompt and decrypt for enemy'
14:32 asciilifeform to which there was a counter, 'cipher with hardware interposer between disk and comp'
14:32 asciilifeform but block ciphers, it turns out, don't exist...
14:33 mircea_popescu aha.
14:34 mircea_popescu though if you re-read, that objection was there, unexpressed.
14:34 asciilifeform objection was, fundamentally, 'os that prompts for pw is promisetronic, can retain pw if it wants'
14:35 asciilifeform which is 100% factual.
14:36 mircea_popescu and also that "enemy will decrypt your disk and fuck you"
14:36 asciilifeform thread was about ~how~ enemy decrypt and fucks
14:36 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#345 << actually, coca cola.
14:36 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
14:36 asciilifeform phosphoric acid
14:37 asciilifeform (active ingredient in, e.g., 'naval jelly', which i dare say works better)
14:38 mircea_popescu he doesn't have a toolbox ; but he does have all the convenience of convenience stores!
14:38 asciilifeform even in hogmilklandia one can buy phosophoric acid without corn syrup. for now.
14:38 asciilifeform *phosphoric
14:42 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#348 << it's entirely unclear to me why you think the hieroglyph is noteworthy. sure, in the context of "let's draw hyeroglyphs", it's as good as many other alternatives. in the context of "let's describe basic trigonometry", it's not particularly useful. and you'll realise this the moment you break out of tedtalktardism "i'll rely on the margins of the box as drawn by magic hand for absolut
14:42 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
14:42 mircea_popescu e truthiness and just follow the hand", such pinnacle of achievement in imbecility, and try to fucking draw the outer square yourself.
14:42 mircea_popescu "oh, with provided premeasured tools this table is just long enough" hurr.
14:43 asciilifeform euclid nervously smokes in the corner
14:43 mircea_popescu no but really. "given the circle cvadrature, isn't this escherian trestlework ever so informative ?"
14:44 mircea_popescu this is what your dumbass "modern democracy" aka "human rights" aka "illuminism" aka "usg" aka "eu" aka "western civilisation" aka dumb shit is doing for you : gives you a pen.
14:44 mircea_popescu wherein to run around like headless chickens. if a headless chicken.
14:46 phf euclid's elements are literate, if you look at the extant copies, they have drawings of shapes with labels, but all the details are otherwise in text
14:46 mircea_popescu "we are the premiere science and technology institution in the world. and we can't light a lightbulb. both of these for the exact same reason - we "learned" from wikipedia, ted talks, and other inept contrivances."
14:46 mircea_popescu phf more fucking importantly, it contains no hidden bits. such as "how did you build the square"
14:46 mircea_popescu every drawing in euclid's a REAL drawing.
14:47 mircea_popescu because the man's brain wasn't rotten by virtuality, and fetishism, and ustardism.
14:48 asciilifeform one of these days i'd like to learn who rotted j. c. maxwell's brain, and with what
14:48 mircea_popescu what are you talking aboot ?
14:48 asciilifeform ( recall, herr maxwell was quite unable to visualize the system he worked with, without resorting to mechanical - yes - gears and pulleys )
14:48 mircea_popescu that's not the problem here discussed.
14:49 mircea_popescu the problem here discussed is when the fucking chickens are shown an impossible object and they cluck right along, "oh, look how great".
14:49 asciilifeform in part it was. it is how he came up with the terrifyingly ugly 20-equations-in-20-unknowns thing
14:49 mircea_popescu maybe. /me didn't know the man.
14:50 asciilifeform in re the chickens, i cannot disagree, they are clucking not so far from where i sit, at the local 'university'
14:50 mircea_popescu this is "if chicken were spherical and in vacuum"++. "if building cvadrature of circle is trivial, then here's a drawing for adding angles"
14:51 mircea_popescu "and if your mother had any taste you wouldn't be here."
14:54 mircea_popescu anyway. i guess unintentionally the problem with pictographics ("it hides things from you! they came bite you in ass latere!") was yet again, for the uncountablyest time, shown in all its nude glory.
14:55 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-6-tmr/ << Qntra - Not Quite News Roundup Xtend 6 (TM)(R)
14:56 asciilifeform 'But if blockchain is to move beyond cryptocurrency and lab experiments to real and profitable deployments, we need to challenge conventional orthodoxy and rethink the role of absolute immutability. Perhaps we will then soon be able to read more about blockchain’s achievements rather than its potential.' << l0l!!
14:56 asciilifeform gold.
14:57 asciilifeform 'One thing is clear: If the financial services industry is to embrace a new technology, it cannot be one in which mischief and mistakes are immutable and fraudsters can defend their actions on spurious ideological grounds. '
14:57 asciilifeform i thought #1 rule of 'unhappening' an event was to ~stop prattling on about it~
14:57 asciilifeform but apparently i have nfi 'HOW WORLD WORX' etc.
14:59 mircea_popescu what the fuck.
14:59 mircea_popescu "real and profitable experiments" PAST cryptocurrency ?
14:59 mircea_popescu tell you what, nothing the us did this year compares. what the fuck is with the pinoy.
15:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform where did ytou even get the turd from ?
15:02 asciilifeform BingoBoingo's 'roundup'
15:02 asciilifeform where else.
15:02 asciilifeform 2nd link in latest qntra.
15:02 asciilifeform or rather 1st
15:04 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#362 << aha ? so ?
15:04 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
15:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: so - lulzy if you 'get lucky'
15:05 mircea_popescu "there are 9 4096 bit strings for any given privkey to which you can not encrypt or decrypt."
15:05 asciilifeform mno, that's not it
15:05 mircea_popescu this kinda follows from definitions, and moreover ... the odds, montresor.
15:05 asciilifeform to which encryption == plaintext.
15:05 mircea_popescu right.
15:05 asciilifeform and yes, odds are ~= asteroid.
15:06 asciilifeform linked as an arithmetical curio strictly.
15:08 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#377 << because what'd they say, that they believe themselves useless and a scourge upon the local community ?
15:08 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:33 asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
15:10 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#397 << this has been pretty lulzy.
15:10 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:40 covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
15:11 phf "dhs prevents countless terrorist attacks each year, which we are not at liberty to discuss as they will compromise ongoing and future investigations"
15:12 mircea_popescu doh.
15:12 asciilifeform death ray plot!1111111
15:12 mircea_popescu countless in the sense of exactly 0.
15:12 mircea_popescu which technically denotes a countable countless set.
15:12 asciilifeform remember, remember, the nth of shitember, the deathray treason and plot! i know of no reason, why deathray treason, should ever be forgot!11111111
15:15 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520239 << the entry point of this mysterious "our dinner 26-sept".
15:15 a111 Logged on 2016-08-12 23:24 mircea_popescu: get in touch when you're here, i'll send someone to pick you up or such covertress .
15:16 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#409 << bwahahaha what ?
15:16 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:45 adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
15:17 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#402 << i have nfi who "patrick" is, but if it's that douchebag murck involved with the vesseness "bitcoin foundation" scam, he has a lot bigger problems than idly posturing around ethereum's corpse/propellerhat
15:17 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:43 covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
15:18 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << the logs dun scale huh. shall we have to introduce per-line fees ? :D
15:18 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:46 phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
15:20 mircea_popescu !!gettrust deedbot covertress
15:20 deedbot L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
15:20 mircea_popescu works.
15:21 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#455 << why ?
15:21 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:54 adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
15:23 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#475 << ahahaha ok this was pretty epic.
15:23 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 04:59 covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
15:23 mircea_popescu are you operating under admirality law adlai ?
15:26 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#509 << thanks! and remember - September, the International Women Discarded As Garbage Day! do your bit to raise awareness!
15:26 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 05:08 mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
15:26 mod6 haha, ok!
15:28 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#518 << i dunno what school you went to ; but think about the geometric meaning of tan for a second.
15:28 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 05:14 adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
15:29 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#527 << this is such idiocy. what cheap. seriously, it's cheap ? any of these jokers ever stood down system with tb ram or what exactly are they on about.
15:29 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 05:24 phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
15:32 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#530 << motherfucker. one day i'm going to find the lame dumbass who told bored middleaged women they have any business involving themselves in the political process and feed him to baby turtles.
15:32 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 05:51 phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
15:34 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#532 << i was dry until about halfway through the log, at which point went and poured myself some cognac. this stuff promotes drunkedness, tis clear.
15:34 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 05:56 adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
15:35 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#546 << wait, did you bust some dude's face ?
15:35 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
15:36 mircea_popescu or are you the weird sort that assaults the woman for cheating rather than the dude she's cheating with.
15:37 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#547 << wait, what ? you somehow believe the same helping of paracetamol kills all people or somesuch ? because what, you've seen on tv that the same gunshot hole kills all people ?
15:37 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
15:39 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#554 << how to correctly allocate which doses correspond to which effects is, of course, a science reserved for the truly heroic.
15:39 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:14 adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
15:42 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << let's instead talk of bridges. badly designed brigde will collapse in rush hour. or maybe not in rush hour. or maybe while closed for repairs, because heavy winds. or maybe just of old age. or perhaps for other reasons. however you model psychoactives - as cars, or as winds ; however you model other people being assholes, cars, winds - fact remains that the less it's used the less it
15:42 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
15:42 mircea_popescu collapses, the better it's built the less it collapses and that finally age conquers all.
15:43 mircea_popescu inasmuch as it's a bridge, use it for car traffic rather than as a wind foil ; and pray the architect wasn't a whore fucking drunks. that's about all.
15:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: poor model. dynamic system, like jet fighter, not static, like bridge.
15:44 asciilifeform and similar faustian deal.
15:44 asciilifeform as the jet.
15:45 mircea_popescu sure, sure.
15:45 mircea_popescu bridge is dynamic system though. just slow.
15:45 asciilifeform see the 'housewife sanity' thread.
15:45 mircea_popescu (yes all bridges move. no such thing as a rigid bridge since many years nao)
15:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ~built~ to be maximally static.
15:45 mircea_popescu the brain is built to be maximally static.
15:46 asciilifeform mno. it learns,
15:46 asciilifeform .
15:46 mircea_popescu this does not settle the point.
15:46 mircea_popescu that it provides you with the delusion of learning to match the societal hallucination of "progress" doth not mean it moved.
15:47 asciilifeform ahahahahaha delusion lolk we had the 'man spends life learning to be a mouse' thread already, n times
15:48 mircea_popescu not what was necessarily meant.
15:48 mircea_popescu but notice that the child "learning" to, eg, walk, is hardly something YOU give it. from outside like.
15:48 asciilifeform hey i said 'learns' not 'taught'
15:49 mircea_popescu just as well could say "and when i was three i put toddling things aside and took my place as king of the walking"
15:49 mircea_popescu yes, but there wasn't any movement there.
15:49 asciilifeform aaah now i gotta go and buy new gas mask canister, lel, bbl.
15:51 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << fwiw there's no psychotic ouverture of bipolar. 1st case mostly sounds as usgistan "let's call it something"/
15:51 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
15:52 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#568 << if this were true we'd be keeping most of the us in white cells.
15:52 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:20 trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
15:53 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#572 << ostracism is maybe a matter of being crafty, but crazy dun enter into it.
15:53 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:23 adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
15:54 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#575 << yes, actually, it does. identity confusion is literally being crazy. it's one thing to have notions about supernatural forces which may help you through shamanism or going to church. it's another to believe you're "really" the other gender etc.
15:54 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:25 adlai: to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
15:56 mircea_popescu evidently, not all crazy requires medical support ; and often the nuts are quite subclinical. but anyway.
16:00 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#588 << they're just inept. crazy discusses the subjective reflection of reality ; not much else. can die as perfectly sane inept losers. the quoted south african ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1500956 ) is a fine example of such. you can equally well be insane, a la arthur blair. "oh, i am an english socialist, though socialsm is necessarily the end of being english, and i'm aware of t
16:00 a111 Logged on 2016-07-11 12:27 mircea_popescu: "If you are white, no positive, active role is left to you. Either you accommodate yourself to the unreasonable, or you play out your life in some futile back alley. You are doomed to this by the disgraceful history of your kind. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not, but it is the way things are." << from another schmuck with a nobel prize.
16:00 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:31 adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
16:00 mircea_popescu his."
16:02 mircea_popescu "liberals" are insane by simple virtue of being liberals, working on the exact same orwellian rails ; and "transgender" derps by simple virtue of gender confusion. a bunch of indian peons dying in a stampede aren't insane, partly because they're too poor to be insane, partly because they're too stupid to be insane. admitting these can even be distinct.
16:03 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#599 << yes, what about it ?
16:03 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:37 phf: what about poetry
16:04 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#608 << this merely confuses (and counterproductively) the self-doubt of the intelligent virgin boy with the self-confusion of the nut.
16:04 mircea_popescu these aren't the same thing ; even if admittedly the virginal youth is ill equipped to see the difference.
16:05 mircea_popescu (male virginity, in this context, is resolved strictly through taking ownership of women and other things ; not through "having sex", especially if that's practiced as some sort of mutual play)
16:10 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#627 << you failing to read the manual doesn't make the scalar stupid or useless. F.
16:10 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 06:47 adlai: stupid useless scalar
16:13 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#656 << which, of course, was discussed in logs as well as http://trilema.com/2014/the-bicameral-world-in-one-room-the-city-dump-in-the-other-room-the-starred-restaurant-do-these-talk-to-each-other-read-on-to-find-out/
16:13 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 09:23 adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
16:13 mircea_popescu so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai ; to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing".
16:14 mircea_popescu careful you don't follow covertress on the path to housewifry, jew.
16:20 shinohai afaik she failed at housewifery too
16:30 mircea_popescu ah ?
16:44 BingoBoingo That would explain a lot.
16:53 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#958 << lol i hope you enjoyed it.
16:53 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 17:03 phf is finally free to go get breakfast
16:54 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#960 << the question is not without merit. with irc and rsa one should be all set ; seeing how trinque is working to put bitcoin payments into deedbot ; the bots read lines and etc...
16:55 mircea_popescu seems to me a fine definition of "working computer" is irc+rsa.
16:55 mircea_popescu and seeing how the "irc" side is vaguely slated for replacement by the end of the decade ; and it should be bouncer-mediated anyway, just plaintext-net works as an "irc"
16:56 mircea_popescu curl, tail and rsa.
16:58 mod6 im gonna get me one of these xilinx boards.
17:01 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1001 << this is a very useful sort of datapoint. didja write / are you writing an article with details ? publish the resulyting driver ? discussion ? etc ?
17:01 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
17:01 mircea_popescu !!up framedr_ghetto
17:01 deedbot framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
17:01 mircea_popescu hello from rome. how is the ghetto ?
17:01 framedr_ghetto hah! greetings from ned territory.
17:02 framedr_ghetto i'm on a guest network with no access to server. i don't know why scriba is acting up. shall be investigated tomorrow but not before
17:02 framedr_ghetto the one day when btcbase was being updated and scriba was wanted, it failed. :/
17:02 framedr_ghetto phf: thanks for making a111 quote mkj log lines
17:03 mircea_popescu it should you know, rejoin if dc'd. and etc.
17:03 framedr_ghetto mircea_popescu: you in rome for real, or some elaborate etymological joke?
17:03 mircea_popescu see, cause the capitol of the republic and of the entire world.
17:03 mircea_popescu the place all roads lead to.
17:03 framedr_ghetto mircea_popescu: it rejoins if it loses connection to freenode; it tries to re-self-voice if it detects it does not have voice anymore. it does not rejoin chan if it gets kicked. will be fixed.
17:03 framedr_ghetto right, right!
17:04 mircea_popescu framedr_ghetto it's a very cheap signal of "you're drunk", which should be used to reset its state
17:04 framedr_ghetto absolutely.
17:04 framedr_ghetto !$ hello
17:04 scriba Hello, world! My uptime is 3:56:58.
17:04 framedr_ghetto hrmgh.
17:04 mircea_popescu a so it works now ?
17:04 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1002
17:04 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 phf: why asm??
17:04 mircea_popescu apparently not.
17:04 framedr_ghetto feel like a (very shitty) nasa engineer communicating with rover on mars and not being able to debug
17:05 mircea_popescu anyway, not the end of the world eh ? fix it tomorrow, nothing burns.
17:05 framedr_ghetto yah. just, feels bad
17:05 framedr_ghetto wine and cold weather and joys of subletting a flat to local folk.
17:06 mircea_popescu did they burn it ?
17:06 framedr_ghetto not yet!
17:06 framedr_ghetto but cleaning a flat... that's a demand too much
17:07 framedr_ghetto there's also a brazilian guy who keeps his dirty socks in the hallway; apparently it's a pattern and not a single instance, too
17:07 mircea_popescu phf to answer the "why asm" thing : because if at issue is to obtain a correct f(lisp) so as it produces the same asm as gcc(c) then we'd better have a good example of target "same asm". his approach is judicious.
17:08 mircea_popescu well at least now i know who to talk to if i ever want real estate in where was this again ?
17:10 framedr_ghetto [btw, just got an x220 for on-foot-travel mode / days. ssd + 9 cell battery => joy. it's a goddamn nice machine. keyboard before lenovo ruined it, etc.; cheapo i5 before it was downsized for "ultramobiles" / w/e. robust as fuck.]
17:11 framedr_ghetto mircea_popescu: glasgow. eh, i'll be outta here this month next year, i think. weather and, you know, the whole wanna-be-empire-failed-island thing..
17:11 mircea_popescu ah yeah. i wouldn't wanna go there.
17:11 mircea_popescu oddly, i know lots of people in a1, but none of them plan to stay
17:12 mircea_popescu few and far between exceptions
17:12 framedr_ghetto "extract purchasing-power-sterling and get outta there" OH WAIT
17:12 framedr_ghetto ...
17:14 mircea_popescu heh
17:14 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1053 << you know, making a nic is not the end of the world.
17:14 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 17:54 asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
17:16 mircea_popescu it even has the advantage of being perhaps the most feared item by lizard court, aside from nuke detonator.
17:19 mircea_popescu 1311 lines should be enough for anyone./
17:28 BingoBoingo In other Quora these syphilitic pussies and their love of $20 chicom firehazards https://archive.is/MMN6v
~ 18 minutes ~
17:47 BingoBoingo !!up framedr_ghetto
17:47 deedbot framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
17:47 framedr_ghetto BingoBoingo: story idea - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/japan-has-a-worrying-number-of-virgins-government-finds-a7312961.html
17:47 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544495 << go and make even a thing that helloworlds on a pci bus, without si fab.
17:47 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 21:14 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1053 << you know, making a nic is not the end of the world.
17:47 asciilifeform all roads lead to sane fpga, or to perdition.
17:48 * asciilifeform bbl
17:50 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2016/09/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-6-tmr/#comment-70724
17:53 framedr_ghetto btw if (tm)(r) is being used to denote those "trademark" signs (and not tmsr), it may be noted that (tm) is for an uregistered trademark and (r) is for a registered one. but i guess the reflexive-ironical use of these makes it fine :p
17:56 BingoBoingo It is being used for being used.
18:10 mircea_popescu ^ guy just likes to paste those in for some reason ; they don't seem to carry meaning.
18:15 BingoBoingo giving nonsense meaning would be fiat
18:28 mircea_popescu "When you get systems that are too complicated to understand, people respond with superstition. Thousands of years ago, people didn’t understand astronomy. So superstitions arose—like praying to appease the spirits thought to be responsible for an eclipse." << this, for the record, is idiocy of the ilk of that-blogger-whats-his-name hurr-durring about how EVIDENTLY us nativism / knownothing movement was wrong because look
18:28 mircea_popescu , the irish came and nothing bad happened.
18:29 mircea_popescu anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
18:30 mircea_popescu we reinterpret it strictly as an extension of the present".
18:30 mircea_popescu astrology as a historical human behaviour eminently is NOT connected to ulterior developments such as astronomy, nor caused by them.
18:30 mircea_popescu and also lamport didn't birth his mother.
18:30 mircea_popescu this corroborated with his dubious indictment of some sysadmin who didn't feel like fixing his computer 20 years ago paint the guy in pretty ugly colors.
18:34 mircea_popescu "Responding to an email message is a simple operation with a simple mathematical description." ok, i'm out. fuckhead has not the first inkling as to what he's talking about.
~ 26 minutes ~
19:00 asciilifeform ahahaha lamport is idiot and i'm d'artagnan lolk.
19:03 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544514 << this is a point tho.
19:03 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 22:29 mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
19:05 asciilifeform we know what the absence of effective 'knownothings' looks like:
19:05 asciilifeform rotterham.
~ 18 minutes ~
19:23 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/japanese-virginity-reaches-crisis-levels/ << Qntra - Japanese Virginity Reaches Crisis Levels
19:25 BingoBoingo Perhaps hashtag activism is needed: #RotterJapan
19:40 mircea_popescu what does openbsd future look without you know, "that guy who didn't save it before microsoft" ?
19:41 mircea_popescu so, yeah. like lamport all you want, the piece is obnoxiously idiotic in too many places to fucking count.
19:42 mircea_popescu wouldn't be the first guy with a great idea that then got totally beat to a pulp by trying to put it in words.
19:50 asciilifeform i got nuffin'
19:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu nailed.
19:56 * mircea_popescu also very much likes lamport.
~ 43 minutes ~
20:39 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
20:39 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 602.89, vol: 1164.33753990 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 607.6, vol: 2643.52677 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 608.05, vol: 3571.06537738 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 604.239405, vol: 201769.63330000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 609.679, vol: 325.23130613 | Volume-weighted last average: 604.347722465
~ 1 hours 42 minutes ~
22:22 * mod6 looks around
~ 22 minutes ~
22:45 BingoBoingo Around says no
22:47 mod6 werd up bb
22:49 mod6 awe shit, my 5 year wot anniversary was on wednesday.
22:49 mod6 spaced it.
22:55 BingoBoingo Oh shit, I forgot to bring a cake!
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