| 00:02 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009735 << nah. by analogy with stellar novae -- fusion can getcha a larger-than-ideal net, which will then frag |
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| 00:02 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-15 23:34:10 awt[signpost|billymg]: Can we assume, given Dunbar's number, which is in the range from 100 to 250, that any two pestnets that fuse will likely be of size s and D - s? |
| 00:02 |
asciilifeform |
(not necessarily along the original edge of fusion, either) |
| 00:03 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009749 << the problem is that currently is absolutely trivial for impersonator to fraudulently extend a chain |
| 00:03 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-15 23:58:12 signpost: suppose a rating pointed to a given message to indicate identity. "I'm rating whomever produced this chain of messages" |
| 00:04 |
signpost |
ratings prior to the fraudulent extension would give one trust in the chain up to that point. |
| 00:04 |
signpost |
ratings after would resolve the split |
| 00:04 |
signpost |
and that still requires the humans to figure out who's bob, which seems unavoidable |
| 00:05 |
signpost |
(specifically, update rating to head of real bobchain, negrate fake bobchain) |
| 00:05 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: the thing is, there is no usable 'identity' attached to either chain. (unless 1 of the 'bobs' is in yer l1, in which case you auto-resolve the fork, by existing spec, and there aint any 'bob problem') |
| 00:05 |
phf |
asciilifeform: but isn't that the point? like impersonator in l1 is “irrelevant”, but impersonator in l>1 is the whole reason for ‘gossip’? |
| 00:05 |
asciilifeform |
phf: observe 'gossip' is nowhere in pest spec |
| 00:05 |
signpost |
I tihnk this problem requires some amount of gossip. |
| 00:05 |
signpost |
*think |
| 00:05 |
* |
asciilifeform never bought into mp's notion that inability to usefully distinguish l2+ msgs is 'feature' |
| 00:05 |
asciilifeform |
it's a bug. |
| 00:06 |
phf |
asciilifeform: what! |
| 00:06 |
signpost |
whoever knows the bobs must speak for them, convince others of their bobacity. |
| 00:07 |
asciilifeform |
what asciilifeform aimed for is somehow 'martian bank', i.e. emulate as much as possible of the mechanics of 'dulapnet' but w/out the hierarchy. |
| 00:07 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: of what 'convince others' if there's no means to ~distinguish~ the bobs, is the q |
| 00:07 |
asciilifeform |
atm they aint guaranteed to be distinguishable. |
| 00:07 |
phf |
asciilifeform: that's a shame, because i'm kind of in it for the ambiguity :) i kind of like the idea of gossip, because while you can have “trusted communication” with your immediate net, anyone outside of it intentionally get a potentially distorted picture. не веришь, прими за сказку |
| 00:07 |
signpost |
asciilifeform: there is what to distinguish. somebody peered with all bobs in question. |
| 00:08 |
asciilifeform |
phf: yer in luck then |
| 00:08 |
asciilifeform |
dun look like anyone knows, phf, how to get rid of the ambiguity. |
| 00:08 |
signpost |
*you* don't have what to distinguish, but you'll have to be supplied it by who has in some form to know. |
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| 00:08 |
* |
signpost might need to sketch the idea out. |
| 00:08 |
* |
asciilifeform will read |
| 00:08 |
asciilifeform |
no reason to hurry |
| 00:11 |
signpost |
phf: I think there's utility in having both spaces. |
| 00:11 |
signpost |
where one swears before god and all, and where nobody can prove exactly who said what outside the cabal. |
| 00:11 |
asciilifeform |
'bob problem' fwiw unfortunately not only affects 2+ l2+ 'bobs', but also fact that one cannot distinguish a hearsay from l1 'bob' (where somehow immediate copy never arrived) from a l2+ 'bob' msg. |
| 00:12 |
asciilifeform |
( can heuristic via 'bob[n]' indicator but it aint a guarantee , esp. if 'bob' l1 is poorly connected ) |
| 00:12 |
signpost |
wouldn't a later direct message resolve? |
| 00:12 |
asciilifeform |
if arrives -- yes |
| 00:12 |
signpost |
which points self-chain at the questionable message that might've been hearsay or fake? |
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| 00:12 |
phf |
i've given it thought, and i think you're overthinking it! :) |
| 00:13 |
asciilifeform |
aha, in principle oughta get the original eventually |
| 00:13 |
awt |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-16#1009777 << seems tangentially related to this discussion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-08#1100602 |
| 00:13 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-16 00:08:16 signpost: *you* don't have what to distinguish, but you'll have to be supplied it by who has in some form to know. |
| 00:13 |
signpost |
or udp gods sent that one to satan, get next message, meh. |
| 00:13 |
phf |
i think it's a kind of useful property, where a casual bantz my arrive by various l1 - l2 paths, and you don't care that signpost's or whatever message, within context, arrived once or twice via asciilifeform. but if signpost were to suddenly proclaim the love of cocks, and it's not from his direct station, i might ask him |
| 00:13 |
phf |
to repeat himself… |
| 00:13 |
asciilifeform |
( for this reason asciilifeform wondered whether makes any sense to, as in current spec, actually display hearsays from l1 folx ) |
| 00:13 |
signpost |
or PROD arrives and I see you have a hash I don't know, and I GETDATA you for it? |
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| 00:14 |
signpost |
inb4 "disregard that I suck cox" as codified message type. |
| 00:15 |
asciilifeform |
imho once we have full section 5 support, would make sense to nix hearsays purporting to come from l1 speakers |
| 00:15 |
asciilifeform |
entirely |
| 00:15 |
signpost |
yep |
| 00:15 |
phf |
right. i want my comms to carry signal, and give me some guarantees, i don't want the gurantees to bulet proof hide underlying behavior in the attempt to protect me from potential abuse |
| 00:15 |
asciilifeform |
atm displaying'em gives ~some~ means to talk from behind nat gnarl |
| 00:17 |
phf |
this goes back to “why pest” conversation from a while ago, with whatshisname. the point would be that, unlike e.g telegram where illusion of security actually masks over all kinds of dodgy behavior, you get a set of transparent behaviors that a skillfull operator can interpret correctly and precisely as far as their m |
| 00:17 |
phf |
eaning |
| 00:17 |
asciilifeform |
after s.5 support worx, will be at least impossible for l2+ speaker to impersonate yer l1. which is enuff imho, to live with |
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| 00:17 |
asciilifeform |
phf: right |
| 00:19 |
phf |
http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-slime-say-2.png i find this to be highly entertaining :D |
| 00:19 |
asciilifeform |
nifty, cheap&angry |
| 00:20 |
asciilifeform |
phf: do you actually own a b&w display or simply emacs knobs ? |
| 00:20 |
* |
asciilifeform sat for rather long time on actual b&w 'eizo', made for radiologists, 'from back of truck'(tm). a++ contrast, never again seen anyffin like it |
| 00:21 |
phf |
i set my terms to vt100, which tends to disable colors in most civilized cli software (uncivilized requires further intervention) |
| 00:21 |
asciilifeform |
a |
| 00:21 |
phf |
i bought that radiologist eizo in russia, unfortunately still haven't bothered to ship it |
| 00:21 |
asciilifeform |
was a++ nifty thing, tho, iirc 24 bits of greyscale dac |
| 00:21 |
asciilifeform |
a heh |
| 00:21 |
asciilifeform |
worked in sunlight, too |
| 00:22 |
phf |
i think color in computing is mostly overrated :D video games and photos. i kind of like how genera did it™ out of necessity: a b&w work terminal and a separate color output display |
| 00:23 |
* |
asciilifeform went back to 'emacs in borland nostalgic palette' , today still in it |
| 00:23 |
asciilifeform |
nuffin beats dedicated b&w thing for text contrast tho, likely ever |
| 00:24 |
asciilifeform |
for asciilifeform issue was the blinding white in night hours |
| 00:24 |
asciilifeform |
tried negativing, but wasn't same |
| 00:24 |
phf |
reverse mode! |
| 00:24 |
phf |
ah |
| 00:25 |
asciilifeform |
suspect highly subjective thing tho |
| 00:25 |
phf |
one day we're going to have those fast refresh eink displays. any day now. two more weeks. |
| 00:25 |
* |
asciilifeform fave display was ancient ibm terminal, green |
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| 00:25 |
asciilifeform |
phf: lolyes. asciilifeform last yr in fact bought 'dasung', barfed after coupla min, sold |
| 00:25 |
asciilifeform |
the vendor royally fucked it, visual artifact fuzz on erry box connected it to |
| 00:26 |
asciilifeform |
(suspect -- as cost of getting even the ~10hz refresh) |
| 00:26 |
asciilifeform |
and wasn't simply the 'miserasure' artifacts. actually showed dynamic snow where grey oughta be |
| 00:27 |
asciilifeform |
was roughly the size of an a4, too, which is imho rather miniature |
| 00:27 |
asciilifeform |
vendor not lied -- 'you can play doom' |
| 00:27 |
asciilifeform |
but didn't buy it to play doom , lol |
| 00:28 |
phf |
lol |
| 00:28 |
* |
asciilifeform found experience reminiscent of 'quake' on 486dx2 |
| 00:28 |
asciilifeform |
'yes, can. but want?' |
| 00:31 |
* |
asciilifeform would buy a 21in 'green' tube with slow luminophor, if such thing existed... |
| 00:31 |
* |
asciilifeform cursed with seeing flicker even at 150+hz on regular crt |
| 00:32 |
phf |
men of knowledge of the future will glass blow own b&w cathode ray tubes |
| 00:32 |
asciilifeform |
verily |
| 00:32 |
phf |
“these chines retina projects just don't have sufficient refresh rate for REAL WORK” |
| 00:33 |
phf |
*retina projectos |
| 00:33 |
phf |
fuck this. |
| 00:33 |
phf |
asciilifeform: laters |
| 00:34 |
* |
asciilifeform must bbl |
| |
~ 39 minutes ~ |
| 01:14 |
phf |
and if y'all thought ‘say’ was ghetto, here's how not to do nick completion: (loop for p being each packet do (intern (string-upcase (red-packet-speaker p)) :cl-user)) |
| |
~ 9 hours 40 minutes ~ |
| 10:55 |
awt |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-16#1009752 << height of rudeness. Emperically though this happens on Twitter (or used to) where two accounts with a largely disjoint audience start a thread. |
| 10:55 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-16 00:02:20 asciilifeform[billymg|signpost]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009735 << nah. by analogy with stellar novae -- fusion can getcha a larger-than-ideal net, which will then frag |
| 10:56 |
awt |
*empirically lol |
| 11:00 |
awt |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009741 << good point |
| 11:00 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-15 23:51:11 signpost: would be nice to build such that eat-the-world is possible, even while avoiding the hubris of expecting to. |
| |
~ 20 minutes ~ |
| 11:20 |
awt |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-16#1009826 << at one point I had a wyse terminal (monochrome orange) set up in my dorm room |
| 11:20 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-16 00:25:14 asciilifeform[billymg|signpost]: fave display was ancient ibm terminal, green |
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~ 2 hours 43 minutes ~ |
| 14:04 |
whaack |
!e view-height |
| 14:04 |
trbexplorer |
block_height: 745261 |
| 14:04 |
trbexplorer |
mins_since_last_block: 39 |
| 14:05 |
whaack |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-13#1009379 << i really enjoy this genre and specifically this mix you posted, plz post more |
| 14:05 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-13 09:21:38 crtdaydreams[billymg]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGaTE2AmsU |