00:00 |
crtdaydreams |
thehorrors: apropos. |
00:00 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-11-29 13:30:15 signpost: the correct social topology is human-sized, e.g. the number of reasonable pest peerings. |
00:04 |
thehorrors |
you know what maybe I am questioning this because I am thinking more about 1-to-1 communication and not say something like IRC channel scale. In my mind it is more about a two-address network rather than a group chat. Maybe that's the wrong use case for pest - but that's exactly what my original question was about |
00:04 |
vex |
ru gay? |
00:06 |
crtdaydreams |
thehorrors: your original question doesn't reflect this whatsoever |
00:06 |
vex |
pest is exactly perfect for peer comms on trb |
00:06 |
crtdaydreams |
bbl |
00:07 |
thehorrors |
crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110718 |
00:07 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-07-06 22:23:41 thehorrors: hi asciilifeform. I was reading the pest spec. Wanted to know your thoughts about the use case for it - I can't say it is completely clear to me |
00:15 |
phf |
thehorrors: this is fundamental internet, you can't peer two peers that have dynamic ips, without having a third peer with a static ip |
00:16 |
vex |
there is no going back |
00:19 |
phf |
with pest, presumably, the two immediate solutions would be to host your own intermediary, or else use pestnet as your peering network |
00:22 |
thehorrors |
phf: thank you, that's what I wanted to clarify. The question that arises: what is the advantage of pest compared to other solutions in such situation? |
00:23 |
vex |
make a proper question |
00:23 |
vex |
pigglet |
00:24 |
phf |
thehorrors: depends on the kind of other solutions you have in mind |
00:25 |
vex |
run away. the dude has a hectic crossbow |
00:27 |
thehorrors |
well, if I have to host my own intermediary, I could host my own email server for example. Then communicate with pgp-encrypted messages with others. Otherwise, any overlay network could work - like i2p. Maybe the requirement of "fits in head" kicks in here - fair enough |
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00:30 |
thehorrors |
then there are things like tox, maybe even jami. Gnunet looks interesting, although it does not "fit in head" by any stretch of imagination |
| |
↖ |
00:31 |
phf |
thehorrors: right, from that perspective there aren't any. could e.g. bounce over multi-hop ssh into a talkd server on a machine in cambodia. i look at it as building a pillow fort with frens. gnunet or tox or jami are not my frens. |
00:33 |
vex |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbkInTnNQ28 mheanwile in cambodia |
00:33 |
thehorrors |
hmm, I suppose that makes sense. Not sure how you managed to articulate this simple idea without calling me a replicant, but thank you phf |
00:34 |
* |
signpost burps |
00:34 |
phf |
i am sometimes generous |
00:34 |
vex |
too many |
00:34 |
thehorrors |
I wonder then could this pillow fort be even simpler? |
00:36 |
phf |
well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant |
| |
↖ |
00:39 |
phf |
but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
00:40 |
phf |
"why custom packet format when could use 9p!!" "but naggum said it's proper to use asn.1 for everything!" etc |
00:41 |
signpost |
it's also polite to at least load the thing into one's own head before asking others to critique it for you. |
00:42 |
thehorrors |
signpost: tell me more about politeness |
00:43 |
signpost |
the problem with the boyish voice is even 40 year olds use it; who can tell. |
00:43 |
vex |
sup piglet |
00:43 |
vex |
squire in the fire |
00:52 |
phf |
signpost: hey can you post random to pest |
00:53 |
signpost |
or literally the exact string? |
00:54 |
phf |
i might be wrong but i think blatta doesn't update your AT if you send it garbage packet |
00:54 |
phf |
but i'm also too lazy to see what the log says.. |
00:55 |
phf |
but basically if i spin up a connection and just start sending garbage right away, i don't get any new messages. i only start getting new messages after i post something (or presumably if i get-data but i haven't tried that yet) |
00:56 |
phf |
*too lazy to see what the spec says |
00:57 |
vex |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvCUmH92HfU meanwhile, in gondwanaland |
00:59 |
signpost |
I haven't tried sending a garbage packet. looks like at least some folks ATs updated when I sent messages from my new IP. |
00:59 |
* |
signpost rereading what current spec says about PROD |
| |
↖ |
01:01 |
phf |
well, asciilifeform's station definitely broadcasts garbage packets (or rather "ignore messages"), so i suspect it's some default behavior? |
01:02 |
signpost |
could also be a bunch of different blatta patch versions. |
01:03 |
signpost |
there is a rubbish_interval_seconds in my blatta's KNOB settings |
01:03 |
phf |
ah there you go |
01:06 |
phf |
oh it's possibly because my ignore message is malformed |
01:07 |
signpost |
meanwhile I'm an idiot, and the deedbot blatta was running in a tmux |
01:07 |
phf |
i only put correct timestamp, but then it's random selfchain, netchain, nick and text. but the one's i'm getting from asciilifeform have 0 netchain and selfchain and the nick is "asciilifeform" |
01:13 |
phf |
signpost: is asciilifeform still peering? |
01:13 |
phf |
can you try posting something.. |
01:14 |
signpost |
yeah I've been posting messages. just sent a few |
01:16 |
signpost |
http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wNR2 << current AT from where I sit. |
01:20 |
phf |
yeah, nevermind i broke something |
01:29 |
phf |
signpost: i come to you once again, to ask for a random message in pest :> |
01:30 |
phf |
i'm pretty sure i crashed asciilifeform's node.. |
01:30 |
signpost |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-07#1008400 |
01:30 |
bitbot |
(pest) 2022-07-07 signpost: 4, which is the most random of numbers. |
01:31 |
signpost |
haha possible, I haven't had a packet from his in a bit |
01:31 |
phf |
yeap :> |
01:32 |
phf |
well, my job is here done |
01:33 |
phf |
oh i know why, it's an encoding issue again. besides decoding utf-8 one must also perhaps check for decoding issues |
01:36 |
phf |
i thought i was sending ignore message, but i was actually sending broadcast, with random binary payload |
01:41 |
phf |
thimbronion: you need to also wrap your foo.decode('utf-8') in try: ... catch UnicodeDecodeError: ... |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 3 hours 38 minutes ~ |
05:20 |
crtdaydreams |
vex: know any good ctfs other than overthewire? |
05:22 |
* |
crtdaydreams is thoroughly not interested in skid shitware e.g. kali lincox |
| |
~ 51 minutes ~ |
06:14 |
shinohai |
crtdaydreams: If I may interject https://github.com/apsdehal/awesome-ctf |
06:16 |
crtdaydreams |
shinohai: thankies, I've seen this somewhere before but must've lost it from bookmarks... might be bookmarked on my lappy |
06:17 |
shinohai |
Yeah I had it bookmarked, just never got around to digging into it in earnest. xD |
06:17 |
crtdaydreams |
:D same lol |
06:18 |
crtdaydreams |
my todo.org has "organize bookmarks" somewhere buried underneath the bits |
06:18 |
shinohai |
Kali blows, and gets worse every release it appears. Backtrack linux was actually nice back in the day for what it was. |
06:19 |
shinohai |
(iirc Kali now ships with *no root account* ! |
06:19 |
crtdaydreams |
imo all these "pentest distros" suffer extreem bloat |
| |
↖ |
06:20 |
crtdaydreams |
I actually had somewhere at .png wallpaper of an ms paint rendition of the kali logo, "kali lincox, the louder u r, the less u hear" |
06:20 |
crtdaydreams |
I would dearly love to have it again, probably lost to bitrot |
06:21 |
shinohai |
TOP KEK @ wallpaper |
06:23 |
shinohai |
crtdaydreams: This it? https://i.redd.it/3c58zbm82jl21.jpg |
06:23 |
crtdaydreams |
ye, but i had an inverted copy aswell |
06:23 |
crtdaydreams |
1080p |
06:26 |
crtdaydreams |
basically what I had |
06:27 |
shinohai |
I'd totally make own .iso fork called kali lincox with that in there. |
06:27 |
crtdaydreams |
mebbe it's been done and we can strip the image from it :D |
06:28 |
crtdaydreams |
I do remember meeting a guy that had done something similar, it might've just been apart of a setup script though |
06:29 |
crtdaydreams |
i might still have it, sec |
06:35 |
crtdaydreams |
HAHA YES |
06:39 |
crtdaydreams |
shinohai: http://0x0.st/oQxy.jpg |
06:39 |
shinohai |
trolololol |
06:50 |
* |
shinohai wonders how many folx watcher "Mr. Robot" and thought Kali instantly turned you into Elliot Alderson ..... |
06:50 |
shinohai |
*watched |
06:54 |
crtdaydreams |
haven't had the privilege of trolling one in the wild, but in containment the experience is nominally "lmgtfy" and "rtfm||gtfo" |
06:56 |
crtdaydreams |
"no you cannot be hacked through a jpeg" |
06:57 |
crtdaydreams |
shinohai: ever seen westworld? |
06:58 |
shinohai |
Nah never seen westworld is it any good? |
07:00 |
* |
shinohai prolly knows more current shows airing on Univision than on English-language TV ..... |
07:01 |
crtdaydreams |
yeah, first coupla seasons excellent, by (i think it's called studio 4?) but then different producer takes over towards the end and it becomes a bit cliche, I haven't read the book but it's well worth considering. |
07:02 |
crtdaydreams |
It's a HBO series |
07:13 |
crtdaydreams |
nite shinohai o/ |
07:15 |
shinohai |
bon sommeil o/ |
| |
~ 2 hours 43 minutes ~ |
09:58 |
asciilifeform |
lol blatta still utf-crashable eh |
10:00 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110728 << subj is beaten painfully, pedantically, to death in sect. 1 of spec. if after reading this still think 'wai, wtf', pestronics prolly aint for you |
10:00 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-06 23:12:21 thehorrors: I am thinking more about "how is it different compared to alternatives" - what are the benefits? |
10:02 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110747 << if 'there are none', you've nobody to talk to, lol! but in fact not necessary for all stations (or, interestingly, even ~any~) to have static ip, so long as you can reach ~somebody~. |
10:02 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-06 23:30:30 thehorrors: what if there are none or none of them have a static address? |
10:05 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110798 << could also, similarly, use carrier pigeons, or human couriers, or smoke signals, lol, nobody's stopping you |
10:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 00:27:54 thehorrors: well, if I have to host my own intermediary, I could host my own email server for example. Then communicate with pgp-encrypted messages with others. Otherwise, any overlay network could work - like i2p. Maybe the requirement of "fits in head" kicks in here - fair enough |
10:08 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110807 << see also. irc frontend aint in any way fundamental to pestronics, and its inclusion in the spec is a temporary wartime measure. |
10:08 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 00:36:20 phf: well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant |
10:08 |
dulapbot |
(pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable |
10:08 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-06-06 13:48:07 asciilifeform: included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism |
10:12 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110799 << asciilifeform walked around for many yrs looking at heathen (nominally) 'p2p' items, errywhere found some moxyesque absurdities/atrocities (e.g. acceptance of heavy memory/cpu load from strangers ; sslism; bernsteinism; and, more often than not, sham-'p2p' where some nodes |
10:12 |
asciilifeform |
impose hierarchical control, or, in same vein, dnsism) hence attempting a civilized solution. |
10:12 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 00:30:46 thehorrors: then there are things like tox, maybe even jami. Gnunet looks interesting, although it does not "fit in head" by any stretch of imagination |
10:16 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110808 << initially asciilifeform had a very concrete problem -- 'how do i announce rack outages if dulapnet lives in selfsame rack?' -- and tried (with help from signpost et al) to shoehorn classical irc. turned out that in fact the shoehorn dun fit, irc impose |
| |
↖ |
10:16 |
asciilifeform |
s central points of failure no matter how you cut it. |
10:16 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 00:39:17 phf: but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting |
10:16 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-09-19 17:24:10 asciilifeform: whole idea was born because there , initially , were to be other irc relayes in dulapnet. and then asciilifeform et al finally read through whole rfc , and realized that it is impossible to make a all-to-all irc network. |
10:17 |
asciilifeform |
wasn't aboutta 'let's talk on aol' and so then this. |
10:17 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion ftr had almost identical idea in parallel and baked an early pre-pest even before asciilifeform posted spec. |
10:18 |
asciilifeform |
imho 'make proper p2p net with wot peers' is a rather obv. idea. it is only the 'devil in details' that aint 100% obv., there are practical headaches implicit in the problem space. |
10:19 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110823 << ftr current blatta not yet has 'prod', 'addr cast', or nat piercing support in general. |
10:19 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 00:59:33 signpost: rereading what current spec says about PROD |
10:20 |
phf |
asciilifeform: i'm more saying that when you're rolling your own little protocols, there's a lot of possibiliy for bike shedding i.e. using off the shelf cryptography or serialization e.g. plan9 people would just route 9p over everything (instead of custom message types), etc. |
10:22 |
asciilifeform |
phf: there's over9000 ways to bake it, theoretically. in practice tho if you want (and asciilifeform does) 1-packet friend-or-foe distinguishability, yer stuck with rather tight space and will end up with something quite similar to the given item no matter how you do it |
10:23 |
phf |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110845 << or you might just want to add b.decode('utf-8',errors='replace') |
10:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 01:41:54 phf: thimbronion: you need to also wrap your foo.decode('utf-8') in try: ... catch UnicodeDecodeError: ... |
10:24 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110855 << lamerware 'for seek00rity professionals' that includes e.g. systemd is a fountain of lulz |
10:24 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 06:19:37 crtdaydreams: imo all these "pentest distros" suffer extreem bloat |
| |
~ 21 minutes ~ |
10:45 |
thimbronion |
asciilifeform: stack trace would be nice if possible |
| |
↖ |
10:47 |
thimbronion |
phf: ty for the suggestions. |
| |
~ 44 minutes ~ |
11:31 |
phf |
i'm getting a bunch of getdata requests from asciilifeform's station, is it possible that blatta generates getdata for ignore messages? |
11:33 |
phf |
or maybe those garbage messages that crashed the utf wrote hashes to db before attempting to do utf decode? |
11:34 |
phf |
ah no looking at code my garbage messages would've had 0 selfchain |
11:34 |
phf |
so what gives |
11:37 |
thimbronion |
phf: currently blatta will spam all peers with GETDATA requests if a packet with a broken is received from any peer |
11:37 |
thimbronion |
*broken chain |
11:37 |
phf |
ah ok |
| |
~ 19 minutes ~ |
11:56 |
phf |
what is selfchain hash256 of? the entire red packet, or just the message part? |
11:57 |
phf |
thimbronion, asciilifeform |
11:57 |
asciilifeform |
phf: message part |
12:03 |
phf |
aye works |
| |
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~ |
13:32 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110910 << sadly lost in shell scrollback, grr. ( asciilifeform still uses unadorned 'xterm' for nearly errything ) |
13:32 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-07-07 10:45:56 thimbronion: asciilifeform: stack trace would be nice if possible |
13:32 |
asciilifeform |
next time will paste. |
13:32 |
asciilifeform |
( phf when you have a chance go ahead & shoot it again ) |
| |
~ 2 hours 15 minutes ~ |
15:48 |
whaack_temp |
!e view-height |
15:48 |
trbexplorer |
block_height: 744035 |
15:48 |
trbexplorer |
mins_since_last_block: 8 |
| |
~ 3 hours 42 minutes ~ |
19:30 |
phf |
asciilifeform: winnuked |
19:32 |
phf |
should be down with `UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xfe in position 0: invalid start byte` |
| |
~ 18 minutes ~ |
19:50 |
asciilifeform |
ty phf |
19:50 |
asciilifeform |
phf et al: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=xb26 << barflog |
19:51 |
phf |
asciilifeform: that's weird, is your station up to date? because i thought with thimbronion's recent fixes there should be a utf decode there.. |
19:51 |
* |
asciilifeform entertained by hilarious bug in xterm paste where lines wrapped |
19:52 |
asciilifeform |
phf: 9976 |
| |
~ 53 minutes ~ |
20:45 |
signpost |
pyc files? |
20:45 |
signpost |
least favorite python footgun right there. |
20:50 |
phf |
maybe not, looking at thimbronion's patches http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-16#1107247 it doesn't particular line |
20:50 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-06-16 22:55:48 thimbronion: http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch.thimbronion.sig << for those who got blown up by the smiley bomb |
21:03 |
thimbronion |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-07#1008701 << seems to work in this case at least |
21:03 |
dulapbot |
(pest) 2022-07-07 awt[asciilifeform]: 滚 |