Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-07-06 | 2022-07-08 →
00:00 crtdaydreams thehorrors: apropos.
00:00 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-29 13:30:15 signpost: the correct social topology is human-sized, e.g. the number of reasonable pest peerings.
00:04 thehorrors you know what maybe I am questioning this because I am thinking more about 1-to-1 communication and not say something like IRC channel scale. In my mind it is more about a two-address network rather than a group chat. Maybe that's the wrong use case for pest - but that's exactly what my original question was about
00:04 vex ru gay?
00:06 crtdaydreams thehorrors: your original question doesn't reflect this whatsoever
00:06 vex pest is exactly perfect for peer comms on trb
00:06 crtdaydreams bbl
00:07 thehorrors crtdaydreams: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110718
00:07 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-06 22:23:41 thehorrors: hi asciilifeform. I was reading the pest spec. Wanted to know your thoughts about the use case for it - I can't say it is completely clear to me
00:15 phf thehorrors: this is fundamental internet, you can't peer two peers that have dynamic ips, without having a third peer with a static ip
00:16 vex there is no going back
00:19 phf with pest, presumably, the two immediate solutions would be to host your own intermediary, or else use pestnet as your peering network
00:22 thehorrors phf: thank you, that's what I wanted to clarify. The question that arises: what is the advantage of pest compared to other solutions in such situation?
00:23 vex make a proper question
00:23 vex pigglet
00:24 phf thehorrors: depends on the kind of other solutions you have in mind
00:25 vex run away. the dude has a hectic crossbow
00:27 thehorrors well, if I have to host my own intermediary, I could host my own email server for example. Then communicate with pgp-encrypted messages with others. Otherwise, any overlay network could work - like i2p. Maybe the requirement of "fits in head" kicks in here - fair enough
00:30 thehorrors then there are things like tox, maybe even jami. Gnunet looks interesting, although it does not "fit in head" by any stretch of imagination
00:31 phf thehorrors: right, from that perspective there aren't any. could e.g. bounce over multi-hop ssh into a talkd server on a machine in cambodia. i look at it as building a pillow fort with frens. gnunet or tox or jami are not my frens.
00:33 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbkInTnNQ28 mheanwile in cambodia
00:33 thehorrors hmm, I suppose that makes sense. Not sure how you managed to articulate this simple idea without calling me a replicant, but thank you phf
00:34 * signpost burps
00:34 phf i am sometimes generous
00:34 vex too many
00:34 thehorrors I wonder then could this pillow fort be even simpler?
00:36 phf well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant
00:39 phf but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting
00:40 phf "why custom packet format when could use 9p!!" "but naggum said it's proper to use asn.1 for everything!" etc
00:41 signpost it's also polite to at least load the thing into one's own head before asking others to critique it for you.
00:42 thehorrors signpost: tell me more about politeness
00:43 signpost the problem with the boyish voice is even 40 year olds use it; who can tell.
00:43 vex sup piglet
00:43 vex squire in the fire
00:52 phf signpost: hey can you post random to pest
00:53 signpost or literally the exact string?
00:54 phf i might be wrong but i think blatta doesn't update your AT if you send it garbage packet
00:54 phf but i'm also too lazy to see what the log says..
00:55 phf but basically if i spin up a connection and just start sending garbage right away, i don't get any new messages. i only start getting new messages after i post something (or presumably if i get-data but i haven't tried that yet)
00:56 phf *too lazy to see what the spec says
00:57 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvCUmH92HfU meanwhile, in gondwanaland
00:59 signpost I haven't tried sending a garbage packet. looks like at least some folks ATs updated when I sent messages from my new IP.
00:59 * signpost rereading what current spec says about PROD
01:01 phf well, asciilifeform's station definitely broadcasts garbage packets (or rather "ignore messages"), so i suspect it's some default behavior?
01:02 signpost could also be a bunch of different blatta patch versions.
01:03 signpost there is a rubbish_interval_seconds in my blatta's KNOB settings
01:03 phf ah there you go
01:06 phf oh it's possibly because my ignore message is malformed
01:07 signpost meanwhile I'm an idiot, and the deedbot blatta was running in a tmux
01:07 phf i only put correct timestamp, but then it's random selfchain, netchain, nick and text. but the one's i'm getting from asciilifeform have 0 netchain and selfchain and the nick is "asciilifeform"
01:13 phf signpost: is asciilifeform still peering?
01:13 phf can you try posting something..
01:14 signpost yeah I've been posting messages. just sent a few
01:16 signpost http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wNR2 << current AT from where I sit.
01:20 phf yeah, nevermind i broke something
01:29 phf signpost: i come to you once again, to ask for a random message in pest :>
01:30 phf i'm pretty sure i crashed asciilifeform's node..
01:30 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-07#1008400
01:30 bitbot (pest) 2022-07-07 signpost: 4, which is the most random of numbers.
01:31 signpost haha possible, I haven't had a packet from his in a bit
01:31 phf yeap :>
01:32 phf well, my job is here done
01:33 phf oh i know why, it's an encoding issue again. besides decoding utf-8 one must also perhaps check for decoding issues
01:36 phf i thought i was sending ignore message, but i was actually sending broadcast, with random binary payload
01:41 phf thimbronion: you need to also wrap your foo.decode('utf-8') in try: ... catch UnicodeDecodeError: ...
~ 3 hours 38 minutes ~
05:20 crtdaydreams vex: know any good ctfs other than overthewire?
05:22 * crtdaydreams is thoroughly not interested in skid shitware e.g. kali lincox
~ 51 minutes ~
06:14 shinohai crtdaydreams: If I may interject https://github.com/apsdehal/awesome-ctf
06:16 crtdaydreams shinohai: thankies, I've seen this somewhere before but must've lost it from bookmarks... might be bookmarked on my lappy
06:17 shinohai Yeah I had it bookmarked, just never got around to digging into it in earnest. xD
06:17 crtdaydreams :D same lol
06:18 crtdaydreams my todo.org has "organize bookmarks" somewhere buried underneath the bits
06:18 shinohai Kali blows, and gets worse every release it appears. Backtrack linux was actually nice back in the day for what it was.
06:19 shinohai (iirc Kali now ships with *no root account* !
06:19 crtdaydreams imo all these "pentest distros" suffer extreem bloat
06:20 crtdaydreams I actually had somewhere at .png wallpaper of an ms paint rendition of the kali logo, "kali lincox, the louder u r, the less u hear"
06:20 crtdaydreams I would dearly love to have it again, probably lost to bitrot
06:21 shinohai TOP KEK @ wallpaper
06:23 shinohai crtdaydreams: This it? https://i.redd.it/3c58zbm82jl21.jpg
06:23 crtdaydreams ye, but i had an inverted copy aswell
06:23 crtdaydreams 1080p
06:26 crtdaydreams basically what I had
06:27 shinohai I'd totally make own .iso fork called kali lincox with that in there.
06:27 crtdaydreams mebbe it's been done and we can strip the image from it :D
06:28 crtdaydreams I do remember meeting a guy that had done something similar, it might've just been apart of a setup script though
06:29 crtdaydreams i might still have it, sec
06:35 crtdaydreams HAHA YES
06:39 crtdaydreams shinohai: http://0x0.st/oQxy.jpg
06:39 shinohai trolololol
06:50 * shinohai wonders how many folx watcher "Mr. Robot" and thought Kali instantly turned you into Elliot Alderson .....
06:50 shinohai *watched
06:54 crtdaydreams haven't had the privilege of trolling one in the wild, but in containment the experience is nominally "lmgtfy" and "rtfm||gtfo"
06:56 crtdaydreams "no you cannot be hacked through a jpeg"
06:57 crtdaydreams shinohai: ever seen westworld?
06:58 shinohai Nah never seen westworld is it any good?
07:00 * shinohai prolly knows more current shows airing on Univision than on English-language TV .....
07:01 crtdaydreams yeah, first coupla seasons excellent, by (i think it's called studio 4?) but then different producer takes over towards the end and it becomes a bit cliche, I haven't read the book but it's well worth considering.
07:02 crtdaydreams It's a HBO series
07:13 crtdaydreams nite shinohai o/
07:15 shinohai bon sommeil o/
~ 2 hours 43 minutes ~
09:58 asciilifeform lol blatta still utf-crashable eh
10:00 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110728 << subj is beaten painfully, pedantically, to death in sect. 1 of spec. if after reading this still think 'wai, wtf', pestronics prolly aint for you
10:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-06 23:12:21 thehorrors: I am thinking more about "how is it different compared to alternatives" - what are the benefits?
10:02 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-06#1110747 << if 'there are none', you've nobody to talk to, lol! but in fact not necessary for all stations (or, interestingly, even ~any~) to have static ip, so long as you can reach ~somebody~.
10:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-06 23:30:30 thehorrors: what if there are none or none of them have a static address?
10:05 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110798 << could also, similarly, use carrier pigeons, or human couriers, or smoke signals, lol, nobody's stopping you
10:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 00:27:54 thehorrors: well, if I have to host my own intermediary, I could host my own email server for example. Then communicate with pgp-encrypted messages with others. Otherwise, any overlay network could work - like i2p. Maybe the requirement of "fits in head" kicks in here - fair enough
10:08 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110807 << see also. irc frontend aint in any way fundamental to pestronics, and its inclusion in the spec is a temporary wartime measure.
10:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 00:36:20 phf: well, there's some ongoing conversations (though maybe i misunderstood, because didn't pay close attention), that maybe irc requirements baked in are an overhead, but you can build subset of pest that will talk to net without being spec conformant
10:08 dulapbot (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable
10:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 13:48:07 asciilifeform: included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
10:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110799 << asciilifeform walked around for many yrs looking at heathen (nominally) 'p2p' items, errywhere found some moxyesque absurdities/atrocities (e.g. acceptance of heavy memory/cpu load from strangers ; sslism; bernsteinism; and, more often than not, sham-'p2p' where some nodes
10:12 asciilifeform impose hierarchical control, or, in same vein, dnsism) hence attempting a civilized solution.
10:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 00:30:46 thehorrors: then there are things like tox, maybe even jami. Gnunet looks interesting, although it does not "fit in head" by any stretch of imagination
10:16 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110808 << initially asciilifeform had a very concrete problem -- 'how do i announce rack outages if dulapnet lives in selfsame rack?' -- and tried (with help from signpost et al) to shoehorn classical irc. turned out that in fact the shoehorn dun fit, irc impose
10:16 asciilifeform s central points of failure no matter how you cut it.
10:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 00:39:17 phf: but also at this level of thought shaping you're basically running into the fact that there's tons of existing protocols and solutions that could be used or shoehorned or influence your decisions or whatever, and simply saying "i don't care, i'm just using pest" is a kind of gordian knot cutting
10:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-19 17:24:10 asciilifeform: whole idea was born because there , initially , were to be other irc relayes in dulapnet. and then asciilifeform et al finally read through whole rfc , and realized that it is impossible to make a all-to-all irc network.
10:17 asciilifeform wasn't aboutta 'let's talk on aol' and so then this.
10:17 asciilifeform thimbronion ftr had almost identical idea in parallel and baked an early pre-pest even before asciilifeform posted spec.
10:18 asciilifeform imho 'make proper p2p net with wot peers' is a rather obv. idea. it is only the 'devil in details' that aint 100% obv., there are practical headaches implicit in the problem space.
10:19 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110823 << ftr current blatta not yet has 'prod', 'addr cast', or nat piercing support in general.
10:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 00:59:33 signpost: rereading what current spec says about PROD
10:20 phf asciilifeform: i'm more saying that when you're rolling your own little protocols, there's a lot of possibiliy for bike shedding i.e. using off the shelf cryptography or serialization e.g. plan9 people would just route 9p over everything (instead of custom message types), etc.
10:22 asciilifeform phf: there's over9000 ways to bake it, theoretically. in practice tho if you want (and asciilifeform does) 1-packet friend-or-foe distinguishability, yer stuck with rather tight space and will end up with something quite similar to the given item no matter how you do it
10:23 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110845 << or you might just want to add b.decode('utf-8',errors='replace')
10:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 01:41:54 phf: thimbronion: you need to also wrap your foo.decode('utf-8') in try: ... catch UnicodeDecodeError: ...
10:24 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110855 << lamerware 'for seek00rity professionals' that includes e.g. systemd is a fountain of lulz
10:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 06:19:37 crtdaydreams: imo all these "pentest distros" suffer extreem bloat
~ 21 minutes ~
10:45 thimbronion asciilifeform: stack trace would be nice if possible
10:47 thimbronion phf: ty for the suggestions.
~ 44 minutes ~
11:31 phf i'm getting a bunch of getdata requests from asciilifeform's station, is it possible that blatta generates getdata for ignore messages?
11:33 phf or maybe those garbage messages that crashed the utf wrote hashes to db before attempting to do utf decode?
11:34 phf ah no looking at code my garbage messages would've had 0 selfchain
11:34 phf so what gives
11:37 thimbronion phf: currently blatta will spam all peers with GETDATA requests if a packet with a broken is received from any peer
11:37 thimbronion *broken chain
11:37 phf ah ok
~ 19 minutes ~
11:56 phf what is selfchain hash256 of? the entire red packet, or just the message part?
11:57 phf thimbronion, asciilifeform
11:57 asciilifeform phf: message part
12:03 phf aye works
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~
13:32 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110910 << sadly lost in shell scrollback, grr. ( asciilifeform still uses unadorned 'xterm' for nearly errything )
13:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-07 10:45:56 thimbronion: asciilifeform: stack trace would be nice if possible
13:32 asciilifeform next time will paste.
13:32 asciilifeform ( phf when you have a chance go ahead & shoot it again )
~ 2 hours 15 minutes ~
15:48 whaack_temp !e view-height
15:48 trbexplorer block_height: 744035
15:48 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 8
~ 3 hours 42 minutes ~
19:30 phf asciilifeform: winnuked
19:32 phf should be down with `UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xfe in position 0: invalid start byte`
~ 18 minutes ~
19:50 asciilifeform ty phf
19:50 asciilifeform phf et al: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=xb26 << barflog
19:51 phf asciilifeform: that's weird, is your station up to date? because i thought with thimbronion's recent fixes there should be a utf decode there..
19:51 * asciilifeform entertained by hilarious bug in xterm paste where lines wrapped
19:52 asciilifeform phf: 9976
~ 53 minutes ~
20:45 signpost pyc files?
20:45 signpost least favorite python footgun right there.
20:50 phf maybe not, looking at thimbronion's patches http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-16#1107247 it doesn't particular line
20:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-16 22:55:48 thimbronion: http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9976-fecal-sprincle.vpatch.thimbronion.sig << for those who got blown up by the smiley bomb
21:03 thimbronion http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-07#1008701 << seems to work in this case at least
21:03 dulapbot (pest) 2022-07-07 awt[asciilifeform]: 滚
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