Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-06-19 | 2022-06-21 →
02:29 verisimilitude I want to pay someone with a cryptocurrency. However, he doesn't accept Bitcoin, but Ethereum. What are your suggestions for a geographical service of which I may make use to send money to an Ethereum wallet?
~ 25 minutes ~
02:55 adlai|text verisimilitude: search around for "instant exchange", these spring up like weeds. obviously they have counterparty risk, they always work in the way most favorable to their operators, rather than actually using scripts to make the two payments mutually continguent.
02:56 adlai|text the original ones did not require registration of any sort: on first page, HTML form for source and target coins, target address, and amount; click, receive ephemeral sending address for source coin, and amount to pay.
02:57 * adlai|text has not used any of these recently, although a few years ago they did all seem to begin requiring some amount of additional info, e.g. email address, or worse, an entire account registration process.
02:58 * adlai|text may have misunderstood what verisimilitude meant by 'geographical'
02:58 verisimilitude I meant like meeting with someone to do this.
02:59 adlai|text aha. localbitcoins.com is/was a centralized site for this kind of matchmaking; and these days, there is a decentralized java hairball whose name I'm inexplicably blanking on.
03:00 adlai|text bitsquare.io
03:01 verisimilitude I'll look into it; I appreciate it, adlai|text.
03:01 adlai|text I think the original idea of BitSquare was to matchmake traders who wanted to trade coin in return for bank transfer of fiat, although it is definitely possible to do one coin for a different one.
03:03 * adlai|text was disappointed to find it not useful for physically locating traders for a cash payment, a few years ago, although in retrospect this is not too surprising. it is designed with the assumption that the payments in both directions are electronic and reasonably immediate, even if they take some time to confirm.
03:04 adlai|text if able to trade cash... why do you need the java hairball? simply each point pistol at counterparty, smile, and trade; holster upon reaching sufficient confirmations.
03:09 adlai|text if not own pistol, 'not ready for bitcoin' (tm) (/s) (r)
~ 13 hours 1 minutes ~
16:11 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-19#1107606 << was just idle curiosity, i wasn't following the conversation too closely, so didn't realize it was a bug. i thought it's something i need to be aware in implementation
16:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-19 17:03:09 thimbronion: phf if you can figure out how to reliable reproduce I would be much obliged
16:11 asciilifeform billymg: in what format is your db dump ? zcat log_db.gz | psql ... aint eatin' it: gzip: log_db.gz: not in gzip format
16:13 billymg asciilifeform: it's produced by this command: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7O9J
16:13 phf kek
16:13 phf billymg: you might want to add a |gzip there in the pipe so it's actually a gz file
16:14 asciilifeform phf: bug; [x|y|z..] normally marks receipt of multiple copies of hearsay msg when >1 peer sends. which obv. aint aboutta happen on a station with 1 peer (not to mention oughta mark distinct senders)
16:14 billymg phf: i thought that's what the -Fc flag did
16:14 billymg format: compressed
16:14 phf billymg: disregard. i've forever been corrupted by plan9, don't believe in flags
16:15 billymg `pg_restore -U nsabot -d nsalog < log_db.gz` works for me to import
16:15 asciilifeform pg_dump --username yeruser yerdb | gzip > log_db.gz
16:15 asciilifeform ^ what is used on asciilifeform's box
16:15 billymg asciilifeform: should've included in the readme if it was supposed to match 1:1
16:16 asciilifeform hm indeed omitted in readme lol
16:16 phf billymg: apparently -Fc is not really compress, it's "custom" which also compresses. so it's probalby not a gz
16:16 asciilifeform it defo aint a gz
16:17 asciilifeform nor is the format an editable text ( was gonna grab the req'd lines )
16:18 billymg asciilifeform: if you just want the lines for pest to import with eat_dump.py you can grab them from my ilog
16:18 billymg i have a script for that, one sec...
16:19 * asciilifeform had a similar, lol, but can't seem to locate a working copy; been too long since last did this...
16:19 billymg script for ripping ilogs: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=hYsI
16:20 billymg for bitdash.io run with e.g. : ./download_raw_logs.sh 1006546 1006561 http://logs.bitdash.io/log-raw/pest ml.txt
16:20 billymg change s / e indexes to what you want
16:20 asciilifeform ty billymg
16:20 billymg np
16:20 asciilifeform billymg: does your default index start at 1000000 like asciilifeform's ?
16:20 billymg yes
16:20 billymg it should
16:21 billymg i'll update the format on the log dump too, apparently gzip compression has some gains over whatever pg_dump uses
16:22 billymg yup: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-08#1000000
16:22 bitbot (pest) 2021-11-08 shinohai: That worked, ran /unpeer then /peer followed by /at with ip and now no double entry
16:27 * billymg for some reason thought that pg_dump flag actually produced gzip format output
16:29 asciilifeform billymg: ok; ate billymg's log, plugged in dulapbot once more. lessee how worx
16:30 * asciilifeform still not saw reply on own station from the helloworld, oddly
16:30 dulapbot (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: helloworld
~ 1 hours 54 minutes ~
18:24 asciilifeform meanwhile in #p.
18:24 dulapbot (pest) 2022-06-20 asciilifeform: had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable
18:25 asciilifeform ^ 'heretical' but ultimately rather obv. observation imho
18:26 asciilifeform ... and observe that longbuffer is already not treated 'like teletype', i.e. it can be retrofilled by getdata
18:27 * asciilifeform long suspected that the protocol can be simplified substantially, and this is a primo place for where
~ 57 minutes ~
19:25 billymg i'm going to rent a server as a stopgap until another dulap becomes available in asciilifeform's rack. i'm going to move the crawler (currently on ec2) and the logger (currently on an rk) to this box. additionally i'll spin up a trb node on it, wainot
19:26 billymg centos 7 or debian 8? (the other options are newer versions of the former or ubuntu flavors)
~ 32 minutes ~
19:59 verisimilitude Yes, it's obviously so, asciilifeform.
20:00 verisimilitude I'd consider renting a server from asciilifeform, but it hardly makes good sense to have our DDoS-resistant and distributed chat protocol use the same few machines.
20:06 * asciilifeform encourages, naturally, folx to subscribe to asciilifeform's rack, but ~not~ to ~only~ asciilifeform's rack
20:06 * billymg nods
20:07 billymg my cr box will be used for pest
20:07 billymg asciilifeform rack box for various www services
20:07 billymg and until that one is ready, a shitbox running centos 7 or debian 8
20:08 billymg if both of those suck, i'll choose debian because i like the name more
20:09 billymg i imagine both will have python 2.7, which is my only hard requirement (even the ec2 "amazon linux" box shipped with that as the default iirc)
20:09 asciilifeform billymg: may be worth, if not feeling like hairshirting w/ gentoos, to try 'artix' ( a non-poetteringized 'arch' asciilifeform had used successfully in commercial works )
20:09 asciilifeform ( an otherwise unremarkable binaristic linux )
20:10 billymg asciilifeform: this is really just to get something up asap, so i'm limited to OS options that are not their "client sends ISO" option
20:10 asciilifeform ( suffers from some ughs but afaik none pertinent to a headless use )
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-17 09:30:33 asciilifeform: 'artix' indeed is systemd-free. but many of the packages (e.g. 'cups') do not work; and device hotplugging is mysteriously broken (mass storage -- worx; usb-to-serial -- not; and this despite a known-good kernel. it's whatever the thing has instead of udev that's a dud)
20:10 asciilifeform a
20:11 billymg i searched the logs re debian/centos, seems people prefer centos 6 (pre systemd apparently)
20:11 billymg but not one of the choices
20:11 asciilifeform billymg: iirc suffered from python 2.6 tho
20:11 billymg centos 7?
20:11 asciilifeform 6
20:11 billymg ah
20:13 billymg looks like debian 8 ("jessie") includes python 2.7 and 3.4, so should work
20:15 * asciilifeform solidly in favour of depythonization, but realizes that it's a long way off
20:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-11 22:09:05 asciilifeform: sh, perlism, pythonism, 'must die'(tm) imho.
20:20 verisimilitude The only reasonable way to kill sh is to stop using UNIX.
20:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: reminiscent of legendary reply of brit war ministry to churchill's 'how do we get rid of german uboats?' -- 'most immediately -- if could boil the ocean'
20:25 verisimilitude It's easier to stop using UNIX.
20:25 asciilifeform marginally
20:26 asciilifeform ( can, e.g., throw out the comp entirely, but presumably wasn't what verisimilitude meant )
20:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-17 17:10:23 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you see yerself as involved in pure mathematics, rather than aiming to actually solve sumthing in physical reality w/ a comp on sumthing resembling human timescale -- the machine is arguably a distraction, and you oughta be working w/ pen & paper
20:27 asciilifeform observe that there aint in fact any alternatives, if keeping the comp (e.g. microshit victims who attempt any serious works are still quite certainly 'using unix', arguably without most of the 'good parts' at that)
20:30 asciilifeform atm errybody stuck with a unix (or crippled imitation), even the lolcats-on-pnoje folx.
20:31 * asciilifeform recalls as recently as ~decade ago seeing e.g. macos9 ref hdrs in www log; but these have long ago vanished
20:32 verisimilitude No, that's one way.
20:32 asciilifeform for verisimilitude's purposes, asciilifeform suspects, phf's plan9 is 'a unix'
20:32 verisimilitude Yes.
20:32 verisimilitude It's the same vile shit, make no mistake.
20:33 verisimilitude ``Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.''
20:34 verisimilitude Erik Naggum wrote that, and it also applies to Plan 9.
20:35 asciilifeform verisimilitude: asciilifeform strongly convinced that anyffin one could write for x86 (and similar 'c-machine' iron) will end up effectively 'a unix', like in the old su joak where 'i take home parts from sewing machine factory erryday, but evrything i assemble always ends up being a maxim mg'
20:37 asciilifeform ( the general idea here, but concrete particulars variously elsewhere in oldlogz )
20:37 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-04-03 asciilifeform: trinque: the flaw is that you gotta support a megatonne of liquishit for even nic to work -- dma, page tables, etc
20:39 amberglint Hello everyone
20:39 asciilifeform wb amberglint !
20:39 amberglint asciilifeform: Have you seen this? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/Sunstone_Architecture_198711.pdf
20:40 amberglint Someone dumped the spec for the unreleased Ivory successor
20:40 asciilifeform amberglint: nope, not prev. seen
20:40 asciilifeform amberglint: don't suppose the dumper also dumped a runnable os for it ?
20:41 amberglint Doesn't look like there's anything else, I suspect it's what Scott McKay found earlier
20:41 asciilifeform a
20:41 asciilifeform still potentially interesting from archaeological pov
20:41 * asciilifeform wonders whether phf seen it
20:42 amberglint Gary Palter also mentioned something called the P-Machine, apparently Symbolics' unreleased multiprocessor hardware
20:42 amberglint No docs yet
20:42 verisimilitude I'm not convinced, asciilifeform.
20:42 asciilifeform amberglint: iirc that one was obliquely hinted at in certain press releases, and there was a bit of hype re a planned use on a satellite
20:42 verisimilitude Consider ITS.
20:43 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i rec to see whether still unconvinced once you've tried revving up nic/disk/vga on x86/64 from bare iron and seen what's involved and how in particular brittle
20:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude: its was 'a unix' in so far as asciilifeform concerned.
20:44 verisimilitude No, I'd rather not.
20:44 * asciilifeform unsurprised
20:45 verisimilitude I should read more on the ice 40.
20:46 amberglint Looks like the Sunstone is a register rather than a stack machine
20:46 amberglint 32 general purpose window registers
20:47 amberglint Kinda like the SPARC I suppose
20:48 amberglint 58 defined instructions
20:49 amberglint No microcode
20:49 * asciilifeform always found interesting that the commercial lispm's were extremely 'conventional' internally, rather than e.g. 'scheme83'-style apparatus with iron gc , cons-only memory, etc
20:49 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-01-07 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-07#1598294 << scheme83 is like a "canticle for leibowitz" artifact. "published design" is overstatement of the century. scraps of published memos and reports spread over out of print conference proceedings, the bulk of actual technology needed to recreate probably somewhere on a TAPE. i don't know where you got that mask generator runs on scheme83. the entire production stack was for mit cadr
20:50 asciilifeform not all that surprising , tho, iron makers have always been the cautious type, on acct of nre cost
20:51 asciilifeform ... nor were various paradigm shifts that theoretically 'easy' today available on '80s fab
20:52 asciilifeform ( e.g. 'orthogonal persistence' would've had to mean magnetic core mem , given speed of period disk, etc )
20:54 asciilifeform e.g. symbolics famously 'pushed the envelope' on iron in all kindsa ways (take simply the fact of their buying own glass factory to make the high-res crt, which was avail. nowhere off-shelf) but can only push 'so' far
20:56 amberglint It took 10 to 12 man-years to design the Ivory while the MicroVAX took 70 to 80 man-years around the same time
20:57 asciilifeform amberglint: well, considering that they were designing it on the 3600, and with fully lispized 'ns' etc cad orchestra -- unsurprise
20:58 * asciilifeform wouldn't be astonished if learned that microvax , or parts thereof, were still drawn with ink, on whatman paper
20:58 amberglint Have you tried to do anything with the cracked NS?
20:58 amberglint It's a shame the docs for it are missing
20:58 asciilifeform amberglint: nope. part of why was that not found any examples whatsoever to work with, nor docs
20:58 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-20#1107706 << you're such an insuffarable cunt, i'm prepared to defend php just to not be in the same camp with you. shit basic on altair is a superior system to the idea system that only exists in verisimilitude's head. did you know that in my system there are no flaws? did you also know that i've solved all practical problems by never doing anything practical? fuck. you.
20:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 16:31:51 verisimilitude: Erik Naggum wrote that, and it also applies to Plan 9.
20:59 asciilifeform lol
20:59 * asciilifeform expected almost exactly ^ eventually
21:00 verisimilitude Calm down.
21:00 asciilifeform phf: imho verisimilitude runs a very serious risk of ending up as an 'why won't they read my elementary proof of fermat's' fella
21:00 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-07-06 erlehmann: http://web.mst.edu/~lmhall/WhatToDoWhenTrisectorComes.pdf
21:01 verisimilitude I'll try to avoid a fate of useless mediocrity.
21:04 * asciilifeform ~decade ago and formerly used to often get 'fan mail' of similar angle to phf's to verisimilitude -- 'stfu about notional systems that only in yer head!' ; naodays not gets these anymoar, but sometimes 'why aintcha writing about lispms! write about lispms!' now, lol
21:04 verisimilitude I'll try to a more sufferable cunt eventually, phf.
21:05 asciilifeform 'what's with this boring bitcoin shite, and arithmetics in ada, where's the lispm' etc
21:06 asciilifeform hard to please erryone.
21:06 * asciilifeform when answers ' the lispm could be in this 'ice40' if it were 300x larger' -- not usually satisfies interlocutor
21:07 * asciilifeform wouldn't be satisfied either, if it were sumbody else answering, lol
21:08 verisimilitude All of the large enough FPGAs are locked down, right?
21:08 asciilifeform verisimilitude: not merely 'locked down' but ungranular
21:08 amberglint Isn't the ECP5 is a magnitude larger and mostly reverse-engineered except for the SerDes part?
21:09 asciilifeform amberglint: ~10x larger
21:09 asciilifeform (i.e. still unlikely to fit a i386, much less a lispm of any description )
21:10 asciilifeform subj for ref.
21:10 asciilifeform tops out at 85k LUTs.
21:10 verisimilitude How hard would it be to chain several together with message-passing?
21:11 asciilifeform verisimilitude: massive bottleneck (in both time & space)
21:12 amberglint Google fabs opensource 130nm chips for free apparently: https://efabless.com/open_shuttle_program
21:12 verisimilitude Yes, with mystery meat added.
21:12 asciilifeform 'Projects must use a common test harness and padframe based on the Caravel repo. New projects should start by duplicating or forking the Caravel User Project repo and implementing their project using the user_project_wrapper. The Caravel repo is configured as a submodule in the project under the ‘caravel’ directory.'
21:13 amberglint The Caravel is a problem, yeah
21:13 asciilifeform seems like it's a 'build on our riscv' thing, rather than 'charity fab for ab initio'
21:14 verisimilitude By the by, hello amberglint, I don't believe we've met before now.
21:15 amberglint I was dropping by occasionally for many years
21:15 asciilifeform ( and see also re fabs )
21:15 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-20 19:28:15 asciilifeform: actually went an' investigated a number of firms that offer 'small-run' ic fab in various processes. they all have these in common.
21:15 dulapbot Logged on 2020-01-20 20:54:06 asciilifeform: there is a 2017 thread where i contacted various small-run fab houses, unfortunately dun have the link handy (and the #s are likely to be out of date nao)
21:15 asciilifeform ( in particular )
21:15 dulapbot Logged on 2020-01-20 21:32:07 asciilifeform: later threads w/ some detail re subj : 1 2 3
21:17 * asciilifeform one time coupla yr ago had a brief exchange with a cn group which initially resembled 'nigerian prince' in flavour but turned out to exist as-described; wanted asciilifeform to design a lispm to be fabbed in pekin; but after some back'n'forth turned out that they wanted asciilifeform to also ~finance~ part of it, lol
21:17 asciilifeform ... was the end of the conv.
21:18 asciilifeform 'talk to rockefeller, not me'
21:19 amberglint Lol
21:19 * asciilifeform never thought it'd be difficult to make clear that one aint rockefeller...
21:19 verisimilitude Well, was the conversation written professionally, or as in this channel?
21:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: chinese-professionally lol
21:20 asciilifeform not went far.
21:21 asciilifeform for asciilifeform to take any such interlocutor seriously, the dough would have to flow in very opposite direction to what described above.
21:22 * asciilifeform aint aboutta do some cn fella's phd thesis for him for phree
21:25 verisimilitude Now that I mull over it, I can't even get this kind of e-mail.
21:25 asciilifeform verisimilitude: didja need'em for sumthing, lol
21:25 asciilifeform verisimilitude: when you bake sumthing in physical world, you'll prolly start getting'em , for all the good it does
21:27 * asciilifeform walking around 'sunstone' doc, wonders 'why the stack pointers etc. exposed to the os/programmer?' -- but equally legit q re 'ivory' & friends
21:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 16:37:30 amberglint: asciilifeform: Have you seen this? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/Sunstone_Architecture_198711.pdf
21:28 asciilifeform ( p. 112 & elsewhere )
21:29 asciilifeform this was historically asciilifeform's crit of the 'big' lispms -- 'screen door on submarine'
21:30 amberglint That's a good question
21:30 asciilifeform i.e. appears that symbolics (can't speak re xerox et al, and e.g. lmi/texas instruments irrelevant, as afaik only sold cadr clones) didn't actually have the confidence to bake a fully 'sealed' lisp cpu, where pointerism not exposed to programmer
21:31 asciilifeform instead left room for all kindsa 'late night with pizzas' kludgery
21:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-11 11:41:04 phf: it's also ancient development practices, which i'm usually all for, but this is the case where some moved on made sense. global package level state in dynamic variables kind of things
21:32 asciilifeform this is possibly 1 piece of the puzzle 'wai bolix died?' . ultimately was making slightly-fancier 'sparc' and the folx making unashamed 'regular' sparc etc. ate'em and laughed.
21:34 * asciilifeform not aboutta 'hurrr, designers at bolix -- idjits!!' -- folx were working under obv. economic constraints, even at the peak of phree reagan moolah
21:35 asciilifeform ic fab -- was (as today) expensive, and folx who dared to make 'martian' arch, which would need multiple revisions to become of any use whatsoever, and with access to the req. moolah -- few to nonexistent.
21:36 asciilifeform afaik mit's 'scheme83'/84 were the 1st (and last) such attempts to be made public.
21:39 phf asciilifeform: i think schemexx cpu was a novel idea, traditionally wild pointer problem was solved at the level of ucode. at least for bolix i suspect by the time they were making a cpu (and they've poached everyone they could from schemexx project), they already had to deal with legacy architecture.
21:39 asciilifeform phf: aha, there wasn't any way they could 100% run away from 3600 legacy
21:40 phf in fact i wouldn't even call it legacy architecture. their approach was very much a ball of mud kind of hacking on architecture level also. "take these common circuits and replace them with pals" later "take this one big circuit and put it vlsi", rather than architecture 2.0!11
21:40 asciilifeform with very minor cleanup -- yes
21:41 asciilifeform ( see e.g. )
21:41 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-12 11:31:20 asciilifeform: both faced very similar problem in 1980 -- how to go from 'two tonnes of 74xxx' to vlsi. and at ~same time~ fund refinement of os and application programs (at the time, useful software was expected to ~ship with a comp~, like you expect tyres to come w/ a new auto )
21:41 verisimilitude The problem with load-gc-copy isn't immediately obvious to me.
21:42 verisimilitude I likely lack context with the rest of the document is all.
21:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you know how programmer doesn't expect to be able to change how ADD, SUB, DIV, MUL work ?
21:43 asciilifeform per asciilifeform's lights, gc oughta be precisely like that.
21:43 asciilifeform it either worx -- in which case belongs in the irons and wholly outside of purview of os -- or it's a kludge, in which case, well, what we have nao.
21:44 asciilifeform 'gc in operating system' is similar to the ancient lul of certain '80s micros where os had to manually trigger dram refresh
21:44 asciilifeform (not even speaking of 'gc in user coad' idjicy there)
21:44 verisimilitude Well, at least one model did allow changing how addition, subtraction, and others worked.
21:45 verisimilitude But sure, I see.
21:46 asciilifeform verisimilitude: until 'recently' , iron div/mul was rare, and these were normally implemented by users
21:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-16 17:50:04 asciilifeform: ( from ^ pov inclusion of #9' and #11 extravagant -- '80s iron made do with 'egyptians' virtually without exception )
21:46 asciilifeform but where included in iron -- typically used as given.
21:48 asciilifeform ... continuing with above -- per asciilifeform's lights, moving to/from ram and nonvolatile store -- also belongs in function of correctly-built iron rather than to be left to programmer. but already many times described this in depth, so won't repeat.
21:48 asciilifeform current comp (and even '80s lispm) very much 8-pedal bus.
21:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-18 16:10:51 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: picture a bus w/ 4 brake and 4 gas pedals. 1 per wheel.
21:49 asciilifeform ( today in multicpu, sometimes over9000-pedal bus, lol )
21:51 verisimilitude I still like the idea of trying to use systolic arrays for everything.
21:51 asciilifeform very easy to 'like idea'. nao draw a working machine...
21:52 verisimilitude I'd like to, one day.
21:53 asciilifeform 'liking' is very, very cheap. then you start w/ physical objects, and find that even in absurdly simple circuit can spend month+ fighting metastability etc
21:53 verisimilitude A systolic array really does seem to be something best used as a component of a larger system, however.
21:55 asciilifeform iron makers (unlike programmers) historically not 'tards'. but extremely cautious, 'burned on hot, will blow on cold', because failure is very, very expensive. ( and if yer doing anyffin out of the ordinary -- virtually guaranteed for 1st n iterations )
21:56 asciilifeform and n can be arbitrarily large.
21:58 asciilifeform today, even to 'try' is so expensive that only 'tbtf' can meaningfully play. and they make exclusively x86 and pnojes for 1e8 morons to lolcat on, outta sheer economic lock if nuffin else.
21:58 verisimilitude I expect TBTF to expand to something Taiwanese.
21:58 asciilifeform 'too big to fail'(tm)
21:59 asciilifeform see also e.g.
21:59 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-07-26 asciilifeform: the coveted 'garden of eden' situation where ~there isn't a microshit~, when there is not a usg department-of-computing that has its tentacles in every orifice - won't be coming back until some quasi-mythical breakthrough decentralizes chip fabbing
21:59 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-10-25 asciilifeform: imho the classical fab is an overwhelmingly incatronic tech, it centralizes unhealthily.
21:59 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-04-17 asciilifeform: it's the most massively centralized industry that exists. there are actually moar independent satellite launchers than e.g. <= 70nm fabs.
22:00 verisimilitude Yes.
22:00 asciilifeform whole field is in a cultural trap from which there atm aint even a hypothetical exit.
22:01 verisimilitude Isn't seventy nanometer small enough, with the fat trimmed?
22:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: likely even 1um is smallenuff (2um was good enuff for bolix) ; but it aint as if the old processes somehow cheap
22:01 verisimilitude I was trying to recall just that, yes.
22:03 asciilifeform and if you aint making '386' and rather want to drive modern drams, throw packets around at modern gb/s, etc. yer stuck w/ 'modern' densities
22:03 asciilifeform the spittoon is in one strand!(tm)(r)
22:04 verisimilitude Yes, we've already established how fucked everything is.
22:04 asciilifeform dun hurt to elaborate re why.
22:04 asciilifeform at any rate not negotiable part of any, even hypothetical & distant unfucking.
22:08 * asciilifeform must bbl
~ 27 minutes ~
22:35 amberglint Speaking of slightly fancier sparcs, I've found a new MIT spin-off company that is selling a tagged RISC-V variant called Dover: https://www.dovermicrosystems.com/
22:36 amberglint All public info I managed to find:
22:36 amberglint https://www.dropbox.com/s/4osfto8yljsxvgj/dover-sullivan2017.pdf?dl=0
22:36 amberglint https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Wed1430-dover_riscv_jan2016_v3.pdf
22:36 amberglint https://web.cs.wpi.edu/~rjwalls/nesd/slides/SullivanDraperNESDFall2016Dover.pdf
22:37 amberglint Someone's attempt to write an OS for it: https://web.mit.edu/ha22286/www/papers/MEng20_4.pdf
22:37 amberglint It's not for workstations, but rather for "embedded" and "IoT" uses
22:38 phf dat "thesis spacing"
22:47 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-20#1107844 << worth mentioning the extent of the cultural trap, that garage fab is likely to get the same terrorist/pedo/tax-evader reception as garage-printed gun.
22:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 17:57:59 asciilifeform: whole field is in a cultural trap from which there atm aint even a hypothetical exit.
23:02 verisimilitude It's even worse, because people expect the right to own guns.
~ 15 minutes ~
23:17 verisimilitude There's no constitutional right to unmolested computation.
23:18 verisimilitude There's not even a constitutional right to being unmolested in practice.
23:19 signpost a more intelligent civilization might've taken an abstract interpretation of the first and fourth amendments, but this is not that civilization.
23:27 verisimilitude Perhaps the next civilization will.
~ 29 minutes ~
23:57 vex signpost, garage fab, is that where you park the truck on the driveway, do a quick hoover, and start baking ics?
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