Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-08 | 2022-06-10 → ↓
02:27 vex asciilifeform, have you done any pest radio expeirments yet?
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02:29 vex I'm toying with the idea of a polyaramid composite shell for a portable computer, which got me thinking about integrated patch antennae
02:34 vex not sure if I've had a cool idea or the home made pesto came from the wrong plot
02:39 vex https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUcgAiaXEAA3n_g?format=jpg via shinohai
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~ 42 minutes ~
03:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-08#1105210 << nope. atm haven't with-whom (of what interest 'radio experiment' on tabletop?)
03:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-08 22:24:51 vex: asciilifeform, have you done any pest radio expeirments yet?
03:23 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-08#1105213 << kek
03:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-08 22:37:22 vex: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUcgAiaXEAA3n_g?format=jpg via shinohai
03:25 vex signpost at least was to be privvy to your derivations, i think i recall
03:26 vex honestly tx to md i dunno how far it is
03:27 asciilifeform vex: uwb antenna gotta be compass oriented, and not erected at asciilifeform's new pad yet, 1st 'what direction' lol
03:28 * asciilifeform was thinking to nominate BingoBoingo as 1st volunteer, but then the latter awol
03:29 vex I thought he was back? he hasn't paid up yet?
03:29 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
03:29 dulapbot BingoBoingo last seen in #asciilifeform on 2022-02-28 12:49:43: In the past month US down ~19% versus Brasil's Real, 5.3% versus Peso Uruguay
03:29 asciilifeform nope
03:31 vex prolly just racoon brain.
03:32 phf oh it's my turn to "phf^wbingoboingo i hear succumb to drink"!
03:32 * asciilifeform has genuinely nfi where BingoBoingo went. could be -- davy jones's locker
03:32 asciilifeform iirc d00d mentioned setting off to dive for spanish gold or sumsuch
03:32 vex no, he's okay
03:33 vex Don't sell his shit just yet
03:33 vex I think I know which dumpster
03:34 asciilifeform iirc he requested cremation for his box if goes to davy jones. if dun come back in coupla yrs, will do it
03:34 vex cremation is extra?
03:35 asciilifeform nah
03:35 phf that's why contracts are universally invalid without time frames
03:35 asciilifeform phf: wasn't in the contract, but 'human' req.
03:37 phf right, but i mean, "press button to nuke my harddrives if i'm missing" is likely to result in "my car broke down and cellphone died and what happened to my computer"
03:37 * asciilifeform recalls how phf was 'buried' alive
03:37 asciilifeform hence not in a hurry.
03:37 * phf very much has practical experience with the matter
03:39 * asciilifeform lulled re contract w/ dc also not specifying what happens to abandoned irons. however, has pretty good guess, seen all kindsa things left on the dock 'for vultures'
03:39 vex love me a vulture sale
03:39 asciilifeform vex: wouldn't believe the age of some of'em. pentium ii etc
03:39 vex worth a look for 3 bucks
03:40 asciilifeform 'members only' and asciilifeform couldn't be arsed anymoar after 1st time
03:40 asciilifeform unspeakable dusty dreck
03:42 vex I've had to burn some towers collected from the side of the road
03:42 asciilifeform 'and then they buried her alive, one year in 1945, with just her sister at her side...'(tm)(r)(sumthing off pet's mp3 player)
03:43 vex best not to get involved
03:43 vex how loud does the pet's podcast go?
03:44 asciilifeform not esp
03:44 vex got any good audio monitors in the new lab?
03:45 asciilifeform nope lol why
03:45 phf is your wife, does she go?
03:45 vex i'm just being silly. imagining alfs 1000bc palace
03:46 vex leadlined for the xrays etc
03:46 asciilifeform 'goes to 11'(tm)
03:46 * asciilifeform in considerably less interesting 'palace' than vex imagines
03:47 phf i bet she does i bet she does
03:47 phf since the reference might've escaped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kwh3R0YjuQ
03:47 vex holiday
03:49 asciilifeform 'he asked us not to shoot him, and we agreed. so he wasn't shot. but instructions were to bury the coffin, and one day he went to sweet sleep in his cell and then woke up...'(tm)(r)(rezun)
03:52 * asciilifeform bbl.
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
04:53 vex meanwhile, in boat news https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQ5AgnUQKA photographers go swimming
05:00 vex when you're still trimming
05:04 vex hold on kids
05:07 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akpIhICWNbE
~ 9 hours 19 minutes ~
14:26 phf asciilifeform: i'm less and less sharing your dislike for pdfs. i think it's a maligned format, because of its incompetent custodian adobe. i'm just looking at the variety of pdf documents, and their corresponding crossplatform support i.e. can render noaa's naval chart which is all shapes as well as mit ai note which is just tiff wrapper equally well on e.g. plan9
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14:34 phf noaa chart https://www.charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/12211.pdf, i've seen similar map outputs from usg, and with mupdf library for rendering, some simple framebuffer hacks and with gps input used it as a kind of free man's google maps
14:46 phf there are other two interesting usecases. one is https://www.alchemistowl.org/pocorgtfo/ which is a sort of phrack reboot. they exploit polyglot format hacks to make their latex magazine contain a zip file also, with the corresponding goodies from the magazine. so it's a kind of old school "comes with a cdrom" experience, where you get an interesting periodical, which you can also unzip and get throwaway goodies
~ 15 minutes ~
15:02 asciilifeform phf: imho ps was a perfectly decent format, and irreplaceable for some use cases. whereas for e.g. scans, to this day no substitute for djvu
15:03 asciilifeform pdf otoh is astonishingly bloated imho, and the renderers of very questionable quality (and dog slow)
15:03 phf the other use case that got me thinking about pdfs again is `man's world` magazine which is a kind of twitter right wing tongue in cheek "playboy for the articles" e.g. https://wiki.chadnet.org/files/mans-world-issue-5.pdf where besides self evident "magazine" aspects, you also have inflamatory content and benefits from single file samizdat aspect. can't deplatform as file, etc.
15:05 asciilifeform wainot djvu for these ?
15:06 asciilifeform 90% of asciilifeform's dislike of pdf is on acct of it being an epic cpu hog
15:06 asciilifeform bw hog too, entirely avoidably
15:07 phf asciilifeform: mostly because http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105047
15:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-07 11:11:35 phf: asciilifeform: but i'm saying that this particular perspective is limiting, because will leave rough edges where "why retards no use, probably because retarded" rather then "you have to flip flag n_x and twiddle relay proxy to send picture to grandma"
15:07 phf djvu doesn't exist in any usable form outside of linux. mac client is from the 90s, no online renderers, etc.
15:08 asciilifeform phf: on the contrary, asciilifeform for instance reads'em on a standard crapplepad where phree renderer avail.
15:08 asciilifeform prolly >1 at this pt
15:08 asciilifeform is actually wai asciilifeform even has the crapplepad
15:10 asciilifeform earlier had 'kindle dx' and there was an (aftermarket) patch (admittedly gnarly to apply) which added djvuism
15:10 phf lol
15:10 phf yes, wainot djvu
15:11 asciilifeform well answer 'wainot' is obv., it has no tbtf pusher to force support by default on erry 50$ konsoomer box
15:11 asciilifeform but -- remains superior format, for nearly all use cases imho
15:12 phf well, on a personal level, besides the ^ i've mostly gave up on djvu because it requires significant effort to write it in lisp, because their compression system is clever. to this day i don't think djvu exists outside of their reference code
15:13 asciilifeform afaik ^ factual
15:13 phf i've tried, granted a decade ago, when the task would've been at the limit of my abilities, gave up
15:14 * asciilifeform when needed to generate'em, used the traditional encoder with ordinary jpg as intermediate
15:15 * asciilifeform pictures if 'mp3' had not caught on, situation in audio would resemble that of graphics; djvu arguably directly analogous to mp3ism
15:16 asciilifeform ... pdf analogous to '90s 'wav' audio
15:16 asciilifeform but without even the benefit of being cpu-light
15:17 phf that's fud
15:18 * asciilifeform must disagree, exactly same $warez when transcoded to djvu 'flies' like microfiche when scrolled on asciilifeform's boxen, in stark contrast to the orig. pdf
15:19 phf asciilifeform: but that's not a measure for anything! unrelated to the fact that i started my argument from "pdf might not be too bad", your position is superficial
15:21 asciilifeform cpu/bw efficiency entirely uninteresting aspect from phf's pov ?
15:22 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform has a recent 'threadripper' from $client, just about best box money could buy in '21, and 200MB+ b00kw4r3z pdf on it still 'crawl'
15:22 phf asciilifeform: cpu/bw efficiency is not inherent to the format, without considering the whys of things your argument becomes cargo cultish
15:22 asciilifeform but is inherent, is the thing
15:22 phf how's it inherent?
15:23 asciilifeform afaik no way to wavelet-compress (and render correctly to multiple res.) in pdf
15:24 asciilifeform the latter also encourages heavy vectorism, which made sense in days of ps and need to draw sharp edges on 50 diff. phototypesetters, but largely wasted on lcd
15:25 asciilifeform (and pdf bakers roll in bitmap graphics anyway, which blows away the resolution-independence if at reasonable res, and guzzles bw/cpu if embedded at 'printer' res)
15:26 phf asciilifeform: of course there's a way to wavelet compress, just pack pdfs ;)
15:26 asciilifeform 200MB pdf turns into a visually-~identical 8MB djvu, and given that phf looked into the mechanics of the formats, likely knows why
15:26 phf *just pack jpegs
15:27 asciilifeform phf: indiv. packing per page doesn't give djvu-style compression, tho
15:28 asciilifeform incidentally djvu has own headaches on acct of 'too clever' compressor, e.g. notice how in some scans и turns to н errywhere, as if some evildoer with time machine went back and fucked 'наука и жизнь' at typesetter
15:29 phf asciilifeform: the trick that djvu plays is separating text rendering from image rendering, and then the image is compressed very agressively (that's why you often see visual artifacts on non-text parts of djvu)
15:29 asciilifeform phf: more often noticed artifacts (as pictured above) in the ~text~
15:30 phf right, because a kind of poor man's ocr
15:30 * asciilifeform suspects this sharp edge could be sanded off if the thing had continued to develop actively
15:30 asciilifeform quite like 'poor man's ocr'
15:30 asciilifeform worx surprisingly well tho, imho
15:31 asciilifeform and spectacularly economical of resources
15:32 phf my point though is that djvu is a scan compression technology with barely a container, while pdf is exclusively a container. comparing the two as equivalents is silly, because the later obviously has more usecases
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15:32 phf can e.g. print tex to pdf and e.g. "spectacularly economical of resources" result
15:33 phf *and get
15:33 asciilifeform upstack, in less 'superficial' observations than merely 'does this take 10s to draw a page on asciilifeform's box' -- pdfism and likewise djvuism suffer from similar sad, that being a rejection of hypertext -- can link to indiv. chapter ? navigating to a link and returning result in a multi-minute rerender of megaturd; overall regression to 'dark age' imho
15:34 phf it's superficial because http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105319
15:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-09 11:30:06 phf: my point though is that djvu is a scan compression technology with barely a container, while pdf is exclusively a container. comparing the two as equivalents is silly, because the later obviously has more usecases
15:35 asciilifeform phf: if there were a viewer which directly and quickly renders tex in a graphical window and 'flies like microfiche' doing so, asciilifeform would then say 'tex is the superior distrib. format'
15:35 asciilifeform phf: pdf is container, with an enumerated set of possible contents none of which afaik amts to a decent djvu-style compressor for b00kw4r3z.
15:37 asciilifeform ( and , suspect, wouldn't in practice make much diff if one were added, good % of such warez consists of vectorized masters intended for press, which weigh gigatonnes )
15:38 phf "you're wrong but even if you're not you're still wrong", man, why did i even enter this conversation :>
15:38 * asciilifeform tried on various occasions to djvuize these, the sharp lines of the vectorisms disintegrate into ugh
15:39 phf in other words "pdf is not as good for bookwarez". i agree
15:40 * asciilifeform agrees that pdf worx over9000 better than anyffin else currently in mass use for throwing to printer. which, unsurprising, because was the intended use orig.
15:41 phf but observe that djvu is not at all popular in the comic book world, where want to preserve pretty picture, so also a very narrow kind of bookwarez
15:41 * asciilifeform not directly familiar with how comic aficionados compress, but believes
15:41 asciilifeform can see wai, tho -- lossy
15:42 * asciilifeform admits that thrd munges together 2 quite dissimilar use cases -- conversion to electro-warez of printed matter, and issuance of new content
15:45 asciilifeform imho fact that pdf is still attractive to over9000 folx for the latter, is evidence of catastrophic failure of www browser concept, rather than success of pdf
15:46 phf right, that's why i started with particular use cases rather then "pdf is awsomex!!"
15:46 phf and yeah, come to think of it, this is a good summation of where i'm comming from: pdf as an alternative to web browser
15:46 * asciilifeform nods
15:47 phf particularly relevant on platforms where can't get "chrome" running, can still get rich content
15:47 phf or maybe even on principle
15:48 asciilifeform aha, on such machines one ends up living in a permanent 1980s, i.e. emulating a printer to read prettyprinted texts
15:49 asciilifeform this imho from failure of state of the art to advance in re rendering on screen.
15:49 asciilifeform there's no particular reason why hypertext had to turn into the extant turd soup.
15:50 asciilifeform even where 'chrome' runs, still ugh
15:50 phf i was already thinking about the pdf's sneakernet aspect because of man's world, but started thinking about it again because of noaa charts (over last weekend had an opportunity to use one on a boat that was not outfitted with a margine gps). wrote a program that rendered a crop of a chart, and placed an X where gps located to a linux framebuffer
15:50 * asciilifeform recalls epic sweat to render equations in 'ffa' in ordinary browser w/out resort to bitmaps
15:51 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform would've naively supposed that commercial boat navigatrons do this; but not esp. surprised to learn that it had to be made by hand 'на коленке'
15:52 asciilifeform nuffin worx in shitware.
15:52 phf asciilifeform: was missing marine gps. it was just a bay side pleasure boat
15:52 asciilifeform a
15:54 phf but i wanted to take it further out, so we ended up going to chincoteague bay, and getting into the nooks and crannies of shoreline. at the end of the day на коленке was alien god like technology for 19th century skipper, worked a+++ :>
15:55 phf so in this context pdf is a kind of container of vectors, prepackaged, at the resolution sufficient for a naval chart. can also do it with svg but at 10x the size, and significant missing functionality
15:57 phf can also do it with custom software or else "send your trip to google"
15:57 asciilifeform hm didn't think google's thing even supported water
15:58 asciilifeform (even supposing one wanted)
15:59 asciilifeform phf: what did the map look like 'internally' in the pdf container ?
15:59 phf asciilifeform: there's a popular package that's available as online and as offline dataset. online uses google maps stack to provide ux, i suppose most data doesn't travel through google, but who knows
15:59 asciilifeform (what'd be, theoretically, an optimal representation of it equiv. to orig. ?)
16:00 phf asciilifeform: all vector. "at such and such coordinate place a black squiggle 2em thickness, at such and such coordinate write `sand dunes, etc"
16:00 asciilifeform a
16:02 phf i suspect noaa keeps some kind of oracle database of this stuff, that they generate pdfs from using custom code
16:02 * asciilifeform vaguely recalls that these typically start life in an ancient fortranism-era usg std. format, prior to pdf edition, but can't recall detail
16:02 phf or that yes
16:03 phf in fact pdf sig says that it was generated using "iTextSharp" which is an agpl pdf slinger for .net
16:16 phf and to wrap this thread found a very old screenshot of mine of using cl-pdf to pack edgy comic book into a pdf container :D http://glyf.org/screenshots/osx_04-Aug-2006_230359.png
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~ 19 minutes ~
16:36 verisimilitude I've authored some PDFs and encountered none of these issues, but I was only doing simple things.
16:37 verisimilitude I agree that emulating paper is terrible, but it's adequate for when I needed to distribute some documents with simple formatting.
16:39 verisimilitude These documents were intended for relatively normal people, and so distributing markup was unacceptable.
16:49 verisimilitude On the topic of horrible software, I noticed something about sh: I was writing a tiny program intended for distribution soon, and avoided all loops by transforming the data appropriately; the entire program is a pipeline, as another of mine is, and it's actually similar to John Backus' FP, if the entire environment and every primitive were designed by a fucking idiot instead.
16:53 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105366 << ha, nifty; was this on a 12in. 'powerbook' by any chance ?
16:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-09 12:14:44 phf: and to wrap this thread found a very old screenshot of mine of using cl-pdf to pack edgy comic book into a pdf container :D http://glyf.org/screenshots/osx_04-Aug-2006_230359.png
16:53 * asciilifeform had that box, was a++ for its time , 1st lappy asciilifeform ever owned that worked 100% properly (incl. 'sleep') etc
16:54 * asciilifeform had bought it as 'total wreckage', laboriously replaced various pieces
16:56 asciilifeform as late as 2012 still worked, lent to a phriend , from whose car was promptly stolen in bmore badlands
~ 2 hours 24 minutes ~
19:20 punkman https://spandrell.com/2022/2/17/better-people << spandrell has now reached ~decade old trilema conclusions
19:21 punkman "This isn't a goodbye, this blog will stay up. The internet needs a place where people can say nigger."
19:24 verisimilitude Who?
19:25 verisimilitude This man is poisoned by memes.
~ 57 minutes ~
20:23 asciilifeform punkman: iirc d00d is infamous urbitist in recent yrs
20:26 * asciilifeform wonders what, if anyffin, spandrell & co. will say if the 'vax victims' fail to keel over on schedule
20:31 asciilifeform 'How can any red-blooded man even keep the motivation to engage in mass politics after these two years?' << s/two/seventyfive
20:35 * asciilifeform lulz over the anglotards who genuinely convinced that 'their democracy'(tm)(r) was a thing, and 'only stopped in '19'
20:36 asciilifeform '20, or whenever
20:41 verisimilitude I've successfully convinced some family members that, no, society was fucked well before any of us were born, and it's not just the last decade that be bad.
20:42 verisimilitude To mock: ``Obama is the anti-christ. Why no, what was MK-ULTRA?''
20:43 asciilifeform verisimilitude: typically these folx unaware of even the basics.
20:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-28 15:09:09 asciilifeform: PeterL: in 1900s, as inescapable consequence of industrialization planet3 was carved up into totalitarian reichs. these have gone and will continue to go by various names, issue costumes.
20:44 asciilifeform i.e. go about thinking that their particular reich 'preserved democracy' in '30s , which then 'won ww2'
20:45 verisimilitude I wonder what will happen before my death.
20:47 verisimilitude Democracy with more than a few hundred people at most is worse than worthless.
20:50 * asciilifeform finds the spandrells, moldbugs, etc. just as tiresomely morose as the reich goebbelses they are nominally 'in opposition' to
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20:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-12 20:11:40 asciilifeform: late-era sovok contained quite a few figures resembling, imho more than superficially, taleb -- i.e. 'dissidents' which were nominally in opposition to it (but vanished into insignificance with its collapse) , nominally 'oppressed' (while occupying plum jobs -- 'writer's union' came w/ massive leisure, primo food, vacation house, car, sometimes -- driver)
20:51 asciilifeform ... 'bap', et al, all of'em
20:52 asciilifeform just about all of'em carry around virtually identical anglo-cockroaches in their heads
20:54 asciilifeform dun even recall any ever showing symptoms of having e.g. worked for a living, or actually finding himself living with the 'niggers', moar or less same aristocrats who whined in sovok , because couldn't 'drink bavarian', or their writers' union private auto didn't come with a driver, etc
20:55 phf asciilifeform: i remember you were a fan of orlol though
20:55 phf similar, if more refined creature
20:56 asciilifeform he had coupla good pieces. but suffered from exactly this disease, d00d 'ripped into reich' while for many yrs pushing warmism, ranting against fission industry, + misc. dnc talking points. switched off like a fucking lamp when moved back to ru, nao pushing 'ru uber alles' etc w/ same enthusiasm
20:57 phf asciilifeform: i can't shame him for it, i still remember your comment thread on tiphareth, where "you don't bow to nato? must be vatnik shill"
20:58 asciilifeform aha was massive box of lulz
20:58 asciilifeform 'this one gotta be a high-ranking kgb officer, how else can speak engl AND proper tardboard ru dialect..' etc
20:58 phf i don't remember many lulz, but the one that stuck is kaledin going "he most definitely doesn't live in america, because nobody writes dollar after number!!1"
20:59 asciilifeform subj ftr.
20:59 dulapbot Logged on 2020-02-15 19:44:36 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in 'let's drill in the deep sea' adventures : made a shot at enculturating nominally-smart folx in ru space. these ended up concluding : 1) 'qntra is paid by putin' 2) 'mp is paid by putin' 3) 'dirty liar, you've never been to usa, but stole the name of a harmless american crackpot' 4) various other lulz, will omit for brevity.
21:00 phf ah didn't see it in the logs, i think that's after i left, saw it accidentally while perusing tiphareth comments
21:00 asciilifeform was memorable laff
21:02 phf i read tiphareth since his lenin.ru anticopyright/end of the world news days, he used to be cool back then, was part of the whole post-punk industrial misanthropic magick thing, he's been turning more and more into a screeching old jew
21:02 asciilifeform ( 'must be kgb colonel' not altogether diff. from e.g. mp's failure of imagination fwiw )
21:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-29 16:22:45 asciilifeform: was digging for quite different thrd tho, re: how mp thought asciilifeform was a liar when describing being poor
21:02 * asciilifeform recalls when 'used to be cool'
21:03 verisimilitude Most political activists I like end up in prison, for the murders that is.
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21:03 asciilifeform phf: unearthed him again in modern times when found him lamenting decline & fall of linux, and asking for moar or less dulapgentoo
21:05 asciilifeform nao iirc he sits in brazil, mp-like, lamenting 'world went to shit', with 'putler' substituted instead of usg as prime mover
21:06 phf actually i think he's a good example of modern propaganda machine trying to get its tendrils into you, would try one strategy, then another, ultimately "gets". because man became strongly covid dissedent, and while i am too, i couldn't care less, thought that most of his takes are exessive. but see once you bought into the narrative, doesn't matter what side, because you're "in". now he's been on "russia orcs rape ukr babies" 24/7
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21:06 phf cicle. "the other shoe dropped" so to speak
21:06 * asciilifeform does not begrudge, necessarily, yacht dwellers their 'dissidentism', but cannot help but observe that their output -- tiresome, almost always reduces to 'wai is my yacht small, while bezos's large -- ougtha be other way around'
21:07 asciilifeform phf: aha, near as can tell is exactly how it worx. 'meme victims'
21:07 verisimilitude I've a simple method for writing on topics such as covid and the like: ``Every idiot has an opinion on it; I'm thus unlikely to be able to write anything interesting on it; therefore, I'll ignore it.''
21:08 verisimilitude He should've had his meme innoculation earlier in life, then, although those have a habit of sticking around.
21:09 asciilifeform re 'orcs raping' -- ~100% of the anglo-'dissidents' detectably have a cosplay-1950s usg os installed in their skulls, w/ 'anticommunism' flavour and 'if only the other reich won' etc
21:12 asciilifeform often enuff accompanied by a very stereotypical preoccupation with 1900s-style 'eugenics', demonstrative collection of old snoary 'fascist classics' , etc
21:12 bitbot (pest) 2022-05-30 asciilifeform: tried various 'fascist classics', j.evola, etc. -- guaranteed sleep
21:12 verisimilitude What's wrong with eugenics?
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21:13 asciilifeform verisimilitude: same thing as 'wrong' with davinci's chopper
21:13 verisimilitude Eugenics obviously works.
21:13 asciilifeform by same token davinci's chopper and tank 'work' today
21:13 verisimilitude Eugenics can be as soft as ``No, you retards can't breed.''.
21:14 verisimilitude Singapore does this.
21:14 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what remarkable inventions or artistic output from sg ?
21:14 verisimilitude They give lesser women without children money in exchange for sterilization.
21:14 phf "if can breed horses, wai not people." obv solution "no horses for you pleb"
21:15 verisimilitude Oh, right, humans are so special.
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21:16 asciilifeform verisimilitude: so far only thing anybody's managed to 'breed humans' for were domesticity and disease.
21:16 verisimilitude We agree the world would be better with fewer idiots, so we already agree on this general topic, asciilifeform.
21:16 asciilifeform incidentally precisely as in 'bred' dogs
21:17 verisimilitude Ending the loathsome needn't come on orders from above; it can be decentralized, and usually is.
21:17 asciilifeform verisimilitude: fwiw not impressed with 'thoroughbred' humans. historically or presently
21:18 verisimilitude That's the same excuse I see for computers.
21:18 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105433 << you obviously assigned your own meaning to my sentence in line of yours and asciilifeform's debate, was making the point that humans are not special, but not necessarily along the debate lines.
21:18 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-09 17:12:54 verisimilitude: Oh, right, humans are so special.
21:18 verisimilitude ``If the Lisp Machine was so good, why is UNIX and Windows everywhere? Checkmate.''
21:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: to expand, dafuq's the point of 'eugenicizing' per 19th c. state of art, and collecting all the recessive crud like e.g. the orthodox j00z did, when can patch'em properly.
21:20 verisimilitude Explain.
21:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: e.g. tay-sachs
21:21 asciilifeform or the over9000 oddball defects suffered by thoroughbred dogs.
21:21 verisimilitude Yes, I'm aware there's work on gene therapy for that defective minority.
21:22 mats the technological case for eugenics seems to be lacking
21:22 asciilifeform is rather like technological case for davinci's machines.
21:22 verisimilitude The case for ending the genetic lines of idiots, however, is clear.
21:23 verisimilitude Even the most defective and loathsome woman can find a way to reproduce, unfortunately.
21:23 mats as an idiot looking from outside, biotech and life science industry appears to be terribly nascent
21:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: can agree w/ 'remove the idjits' w/out buying into the notion that there'll be fewer of'em produced later to remove
21:23 mats not really investable
21:24 verisimilitude Well, it's still eugenics.
21:24 asciilifeform mats: iirc in cn they're quietly pushing the state of art, check back there in 20y
21:24 verisimilitude Sure, idiots always find a way to exist.
21:24 verisimilitude ``Make something idiot-proof and nature will create a better idiot.''
21:25 asciilifeform verisimilitude: not simply 'a way'. consider e.g. 'sickle cell' disease.
21:25 verisimilitude We're discussing humans, asciilifeform.
21:25 asciilifeform where having 1 copy is actually adaptive
21:26 asciilifeform verisimilitude: plenty of (mostly undocumented) traits work similarly.
21:26 verisimilitude Sure.
21:26 asciilifeform which is wai they're walking around, rather than vanished over9000y ago
21:26 verisimilitude Still, any small effort would be better than the current dysgenics.
21:26 mats did a black man finger your butthole in early childhood, v-tude
21:26 verisimilitude No.
21:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: check w/ the cn folx, they're, supposedly, trying 'modern chopper' rather than 'davinci' idjit selection
21:27 signpost we doing nazi racial theories again?
21:27 verisimilitude No, we're doing racial theories with national socialist characteristics, signpost.
21:28 asciilifeform this btw simply 1 instance of moar broad anglo'dissent' disease: 'let's dig up all the 1900s shite' without regard to whether any rational engineering basis or empirical win
21:28 asciilifeform likely could find classical phrenologists in there, if looked hard enuff
21:28 signpost seriously, one can hate his contemporaries for good reasons.
21:29 signpost without "JUST LIKE HITLER SAID!"
21:29 verisimilitude Phrenology isn't total quackery.
21:29 asciilifeform signpost: they're digging up 'oldies'
21:29 asciilifeform indiscriminately
21:29 verisimilitude There's obviously some truth to it.
21:29 mats amazing
21:29 asciilifeform verisimilitude: apparently not so obv?
21:29 verisimilitude ``This man has a deformed head.''
21:29 verisimilitude ``NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.''
21:29 asciilifeform verisimilitude: whom've you met w/ deformed heads ?
21:30 signpost how are we going to slice european hybridization with neanderthals?
21:30 phf signpost: on the flip side if conversation ever becomes "oh didn't hitler say that?" then all rational discourse goes out the window e.g. yours and mats contribution so far has been "hitler!" and "black person touch you funny!"
21:30 verisimilitude How am I to answer that, asciilifeform?
21:30 asciilifeform signpost: dun recall, was neanderthal supposed to be 'ubermensch' or the other way around
21:30 signpost dunno!
21:31 verisimilitude Hitler drank water, I hear.
21:31 phf i'm not saying you're bad for it, btw, i'm just saying that somehow everyone got galvanized at the same time to say that verisimilitude is obv bad and wrong
21:31 * asciilifeform recalls old man adolph's quite mp-like rant re superiority of air-cooled auto engines
21:31 mats is he wrong though?
21:32 asciilifeform mats: imho wrong in the precise way davinci was wrong re how to build chopper.
21:33 asciilifeform except, picture if he lived ~today~ and still drew horse-propelled tanks, choppers, etc
21:33 verisimilitude Yet there are things a horse can do a machine can't, such as usefully follow a dirt path in a war zone.
21:33 signpost phf: mine reads to me like a prompt for him to give higher quality output.
21:34 signpost I've had pretty lengthy threads with the guy that amount to ^
21:34 asciilifeform by all means breed army of ubermenschen. but actually ~do~ it w/ at least present-day state of the art, rather than pretending that can get desired result 'as with dog'
21:34 verisimilitude Mine output is low quality?
21:35 asciilifeform it's wishful thinking 'engineering' that is the problem w/ modern-day 'ubermensch breeders', rather than 'ohnoez hitlers'
21:35 verisimilitude I don't think I'll have the opportunity to do much with this, asciilifeform.
21:35 signpost verisimilitude: yes, you routinely declare something obvious, then skitter onto another topic when someone engages you on the thing not being obvious at all.
21:35 phf signpost: i can only read what verisimilitude says by visiting logs, ftr i don't necessarily dislike the guy (certainly won't put conditionals into my code), he just has this peculiar skill to say infuriating shit while i'm mid conversation with /somebody else/, like exactly what happened right now, which throws my line of thought, and generally derails conversation. which by the way precisely what happened right now.
21:36 asciilifeform 'by proxy' wishful thinking - e.g. pretending that singapour 'did it' -- similar
21:36 signpost obviously there can be all manner of repair and even augmentation to genetics at some point.
21:36 verisimilitude That's fair. I'd rather skulk than skitter.
21:36 signpost phf: mm, please continue with what you were on.
21:36 phf i don't even remember what it was! :D
21:36 verisimilitude I'm laughing.
21:36 signpost ah, well if I may. boobs, or not boobs?
21:37 asciilifeform lol
21:37 verisimilitude Rears are better, signpost.
21:37 * signpost goes to catch up on logs.
21:38 * asciilifeform recalls ru short story that verisimilitude might like, where 'mengele -- humanitarian', 'i'ma find how to repaint their eyes so they won't need to shoot'em' etc. gotta find & translate at some pt
21:38 verisimilitude I'll certainly read it.
21:38 mats i just want to see a more polished rendition of ol H
21:39 asciilifeform mats: difficult to polish when there aint a 'there' there
21:39 phf i grew up on the culture of "good breeding", can't knock down eugenics, but one doesn't discuss things like that in a polite company.
21:39 asciilifeform lol
21:39 verisimilitude This is polite company?
21:39 mats work on the demogoguery and maybe you have a shot at being a state representative and later congressman
21:39 phf but i'll address the more important question
21:39 verisimilitude People have told me that before.
21:40 mats demagoguery
21:40 asciilifeform fwiw mats asciilifeform in fact read afaik complete mr.h, and the 'fascist classics', evola et al, has approx. imho as much 'substance to render' as the contents of 'qanon'
21:41 phf signpost: i like boobs, i'm not ashamed. there's men of taste who have peculiar preferences, and i think maybe ass preference is superior, but it too was ruined by kardashian and media. so in a way my basic taste stood the test of time.
21:41 asciilifeform makes e.g. mp circa '19 look coherent and actionable in comparison.
21:42 phf asciilifeform: there's no way you've read all evola. that's kind of like the sadly apocryphal story of knuth and steve jobs "i've read all your books -- you're full of shit"
21:42 asciilifeform if these folx hadn't picturesquely lost a world war, nobody would read the dross, it'd be collecting dust in same place as worx of trofim lysenko (which asciilifeform also, lol, read...)
21:42 asciilifeform phf: read exactly 1 evola
21:42 asciilifeform was enuff
21:42 mats little v oughta work on his polemic against hispanics
21:43 asciilifeform phf: didja actually eat ~all~ of him ??
21:44 mats its the browns that are most cause for concern to team H
21:44 verisimilitude I could continue on this sexual topic, but it would reveal a deeply unusual nature, so let's not.
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21:44 phf asciilifeform: i've read his stuff on yoga and buddhism, and i like his take. he turned out to be a lot more factually acurate and honest in his rendition of e.g. cast system. i powered through his alchemy book, which i thought was fascinating as a kind of very complicated mental construct that does not actually have any substance to it (kind of like mathematics, but not connected to any reality), and i don't think he's to blame for
21:44 phf this, was working with the material. i couldn't power through "ride the tiger" or whatever
21:45 * asciilifeform started with the alchemy, and stopped
21:45 verisimilitude I'm waiting until my Latin improves before I try to summon demons.
21:46 phf asciilifeform: lol, that's possibly the worst choice. i really don't think evola is to blame, he was mostly documenting western esoteric tradition
21:46 asciilifeform entirely possib
21:47 asciilifeform but the folx reading him nao, 9 outta 10 think 'can learn to summon devils', by all indications
21:47 phf but interestingly enough the book was given to me by probably the most fascinating wasp i've ever met, who was using it for his spiritual guidance, while relying on traditionally wasp "tennis and running" for the physical component.
21:48 asciilifeform ( is, upstack, what was asciilifeform's complaint re the whole subculture, folx indiscriminately digging up 'forbidden' oldies and thinking this'll turn'em into ubermenschen or at least somehow undermine 'regime' )
21:48 phf i lost touch with the guy because he sold his earthly and urban possessions, cached out his investments to buy a giant chunk of farmland "because this is where everything's going" in 2010 or so. at the time i thought he was an idiot, only took me another 10 years to get on his level.
21:48 asciilifeform no obj to digging'em from 'historian' pov. but there aint magic.
21:49 asciilifeform could've bought farm sooner , lol, if not sat reading evola..
21:49 phf i dunno 2010 is probably appropriate time to buy farm
21:50 asciilifeform phf: whole thing imho isomorphic to the '2600 hacker culture'(tm)(r) phf described earlier
21:50 asciilifeform cargo cult
21:51 asciilifeform ( thing is, 'cargo cult' could even be interesting if the tribesmen somehow build ~working~ planes. but unsurprisingly neverhappens , not simply because 'haven't with-what' but because working in broken model entirely )
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21:51 asciilifeform observe that they dun build working gliders either
21:51 phf i can kind of see that, but on the other hand this goes back to my conversations with signpost. i can't fault people for trying to find meaning, particularly if it is outside of "my funkopop collection will soon be complete"
21:52 * asciilifeform 'can't fault' folx for drinking to death, either
21:52 asciilifeform is moar or less inevitable reaction for some to 'dead end'
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21:52 * signpost certainly continues to grunt meaning out of his favorite germans.
21:52 asciilifeform by all means
21:52 signpost heidegger was even a proper nazi.
21:53 asciilifeform some directions for 'find meaning' imho lead to moar interesting, however, places than others.
21:53 phf asciilifeform: not how i meant it. it's a rhetorical can't fault. you know there's a thing, and i don't remember correct term, but it's basically "library core" or something like that, where zoomers dress and act like harry potter characters, have books and stuff, but don't actually read them, just sort of photo op. there's a cargo cult
21:54 asciilifeform ( e.g. where chance to do sumthing actually new, rather than replay -- on the cheap -- 100y ago dead end )
21:54 phf and i can't fault because the only guy i know who genuinely read and practiced an entire evola book (the wasp in question), was definitely living his life to a larger potential
21:54 asciilifeform phf: the 1s asciilifeform encountered, in fact read the b00x, can quote 'chapter & verse' for all the diff it makes
21:54 asciilifeform phf: rright but which way arrow of causation?
21:55 asciilifeform i.e. did he 'larger potential' because read it, or was already 'sleeping ad libitum' and unencumbered with work, and had time to evola.
21:55 phf asciilifeform: mu :p
21:55 * phf gtg, have dinner plans
21:55 asciilifeform laters
21:55 * asciilifeform similarly must bbl
22:04 verisimilitude Thanks for reminding me about those idiots, phf.
22:05 verisimilitude The worst thing about Tumblr is how its death spread those idiots around.
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