Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-06-05 | 2022-06-07 →
02:18 mats asciilifeform: idk, but it would be interesting if usg sold them to tw
02:20 mats i don't think they're ceremonial in china's case over taiwan, it helps them establish a no-go zone on the eastern coast of tw
02:24 mats and peacetime stuff like humanitarian aid, which usa did in .ph in 2013
02:25 mats haiti in 2021, and so on
02:26 mats carriers are vulnerable but also very useful
~ 15 minutes ~
02:42 asciilifeform hmm mats , how does carrier play into peacetime/humanitarian works ?
02:46 mats they carry a lot of stuff on short notice
~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
04:05 verisimilitude They can use them to transport plastic pellets disguised as rice, asciilifeform.
~ 48 minutes ~
04:54 asciilifeform 'the rice of the future' !
~ 12 hours 21 minutes ~
17:15 d4 asciilifeform: what do you think about OTR?
~ 25 minutes ~
17:40 signpost ^ going to move this over to pest now.
17:42 phf signpost: what was that a reference to?
17:43 asciilifeform phf: deedbot, loox like
17:43 signpost deedbot parting
17:43 phf ah ty
17:43 verisimilitude This is also neat.
17:43 asciilifeform signpost: would be handy to have it in #a (which asciilifeform plans to keep around as a n00b door, until figures out a way to cleanly bridge an irc door to pestnet) but not essential imho
17:44 verisimilitude I suppose the goal for moving over to Pest is within this year, right?
17:45 asciilifeform verisimilitude: some folx already 'moved over'
17:45 phf what about an http client?
17:45 asciilifeform !q uptime
17:45 dulapbot asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 355d 14h 42m
17:45 signpost asciilifeform: problem is that it doesn't understand being connected to two different IRC servers, would take some rework to make happen.
17:45 asciilifeform signpost: a
17:45 verisimilitude Was that directed towards me, phf?
17:45 asciilifeform phf: jsistic irc client already exists neh
17:46 asciilifeform ( a js pest client is theoretically possible, but where would it keep old msgs ? )
17:46 phf my pest is not going to be to spec, interested parties can extend once i release, specifically i'm not going to do irc layer at all
17:46 asciilifeform not to mention fact that you can't sit down on a pestnet w/out getting some keys, and where keep keys ?
17:47 asciilifeform phf: verisimilitude was making iirc exactly such a client
17:48 * asciilifeform included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
17:51 shinohai I like the irc compatibility simply because it's comfy.
17:51 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104827 << i was thinking to integrate it into btcbase logger, so messages are kept in logger, and when speaking either as "a111" or as hearsay
17:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 13:46:50 asciilifeform: not to mention fact that you can't sit down on a pestnet w/out getting some keys, and where keep keys ?
17:51 asciilifeform phf: when who's speaking ?
17:53 asciilifeform shinohai: irc compat. makes for relatively painless integration of existing bots, gui chat clients, etc
17:53 asciilifeform asciilifeform's thought was 'why fix what aint broken'
17:54 asciilifeform irc imho is perfectly adequate means of passing text to/from a chat frontend or bot
17:54 phf well, when a111 announces links or whatever, speaks as itself, and if it's getting translating messages from a web user, it will just act as relay
17:54 asciilifeform a
17:54 asciilifeform if 'public toilet' relay, how will speakers have valid selfchains ?
17:54 signpost imho the usenet-like features are interesting enough to eventually merit pest-specific clients
17:54 asciilifeform signpost: eventually defo
17:54 * signpost would like to blog into such.
17:54 asciilifeform ditto the proposed warez knobs
17:56 asciilifeform ... if phf posts a self-contained cl pestronics lib, could be integrated directly into bots etc. nifty
17:56 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104839 << they don't, they just see whatever a111 sees and logs
17:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 13:54:36 asciilifeform: if 'public toilet' relay, how will speakers have valid selfchains ?
17:58 asciilifeform phf: will work, i suppose, unless we do the unique handles pill from earlier thrd
17:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-08 11:34:35 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-08#1100576 << asciilifeform posted a solution, of sorts
17:59 asciilifeform ^ not in current spec/draft
18:01 phf i'll have to digest that thread, at present i don't see a point of hearsay coordination
18:03 phf in my mind any station can claim whatever hearsay, and if it doesn't play nice, then you talk to the operator, tell him to stop pushing "i hear asciilifeform said i'm a poopy head" messages
18:03 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform recs to read the threads; there's coupla nonobv. problems (e.g. talk to ~which~ operator ?)
18:04 asciilifeform say the collision is b/w 2 branches in yer l3+
18:04 asciilifeform asciilifeform's pov (and why bothered with 'selfchain', 'forks', etc) is that one oughta enforce handle uniqueness to the degree ~possible~ ('but not further')
18:05 asciilifeform it was the 1 serious win of classical centralized irc nets
18:05 asciilifeform and imho oughta be preserved, to extent possible, in p2p topology. q is 'how much possible?'
18:05 phf asciilifeform: talk to l1s relaying it, so they talk to their l1s, etc.
18:06 phf i thought that the responsibility chain runs like in the old warez communities "you're responsible for whoever your brought in, and they misbehave you're out also"
18:07 phf *if they
18:07 asciilifeform phf: and when 2+ nets merge, and this produces a handle collison ? (aka the 'bob' problem)
18:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 09:39:16 PeterL: I'm thinking of the situation where two nets come together, both have a guy named "bob", can one pick a different name without having to re-peer with everybody?
18:07 asciilifeform who is 'the troo bob'.
18:08 asciilifeform asciilifeform's position is that it at all times must be possible to ~distinguish~ the 'bobs'.
18:08 asciilifeform if cannot distinguish -- then 'talk to each l1' will be of questionable use
18:09 verisimilitude On the topic of an IRC interface, I figure it would be simple to have a little program sit between the Pest log and the operator, to provide exactly this with fewer complications.
18:09 asciilifeform verisimilitude: thick sandwitches of glue are imho untasty
18:09 verisimilitude So is IRC.
18:09 * asciilifeform does not begrudge verisimilitude or anybody else their custom ircless pestrons
18:10 asciilifeform but asciilifeform operates bots, likes using various traditional chat clients, etc
18:10 asciilifeform has 0 intention to fuck around in the guts of ancient x11 proggies to bake in pest support any time soon
18:10 verisimilitude If I don't finish in time, I'll just have to have someone else's Pest log in my way, so I can replace it later.
18:10 asciilifeform verisimilitude: can read public log of the public pestnet even nao
18:11 verisimilitude Sure.
18:11 asciilifeform but will need a client to tx
18:11 verisimilitude Yes.
18:11 verisimilitude How will I bother others without being able to send messages, asciilifeform?
18:11 asciilifeform verisimilitude: perhaps via phf's thing
18:11 asciilifeform but ideally errybody oughta have an adult station
18:12 asciilifeform there's very little reason not to, thimbronion's current draft client is notbad
18:12 verisimilitude I can see phf writing ``if name = verisimilitude then fuck_you; end if;''.
18:12 asciilifeform iirc jonsykkel's also mostly worx nao
18:12 asciilifeform lol
18:14 phf verisimilitude: that reminds me of an old emacs thread, where "how can the faithful use emacs if potential contributors are jews and are putting subtle bugs to subvert allah's will"
18:14 verisimilitude How large is a current Pest, anyway; I'd figure fewer than two thousand lines, easily.
18:14 asciilifeform verisimilitude: take a look, wainot
18:14 verisimilitude Well, I'm lazy, but okay.
18:15 phf asciilifeform: i'm leaning towards "two bobs are social problem" :>
18:15 asciilifeform phf: laff if you like, but is essentially valid q. and eternal headache for folx who not invented vtronics yet.
18:15 asciilifeform phf: 'social problem' aint a license to do nuffin to allow technical means for resolution, imho
18:16 asciilifeform again, to extent physically possible.
18:16 asciilifeform this was the downfall of the orig. irc for that matter.
18:16 asciilifeform left all problems of misbehaviour as 'social problem' with no means of effective cure other than fascist centralization/moderation
18:20 phf i think peer/hearsay is an elegant model, specifically allows for all kinds of interesting hearsay, e.g. toilet http client, personal telegram translator, etc. i suspect if you start restricting "what kind of hearsay" will limit the use cases significantly to essentially "better irc"
18:20 verisimilitude ``As you may know, "blatta" is Latin for "cockroach."'' I didn't yet know, but how neat.
18:20 signpost does seem that whatever solution, it will have to treat both relayers of bobs equally.
18:20 asciilifeform phf: not so interested in restricting but in ~distinguishing~ ( and thereby permitting indiv. operators to filter, if req'd )
18:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: iirc deliberate
18:21 verisimilitude It's a quote from the website, so I agree.
18:22 asciilifeform phf: observe btw that a good % of hearsay on the current pestnet is 'from my peer but somehow peering aint working atm'
18:22 asciilifeform i.e. the sort of thing that wouldn't exist in 'ideal' net where erything rsa'd etc
18:22 asciilifeform that these aint physically distinguishable from 'randos in pub toilet' is unfortunate.
18:23 asciilifeform when nat drilling properly implemented in clients, expect this kinda thing will lessen -- but doubt will disappear 100%
18:24 asciilifeform ... upstack, re: the decline & fall of the great irc nets -- see also.
18:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:33:12 asciilifeform: imho irc went in wholly wrong direction of development when the large nets formed.
18:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-01 13:38:53 asciilifeform: cgra: apparently irc has this subtle braindamage baked in at algo level. and is, evidently, why all the great irc nets eventually not only schismed, but acrimoniously schismed and turned into palace-reichs and eventually burn down
18:29 asciilifeform ... observe that 'bob problem' aint even a result of 'misbehaviour' (~which~ 'bob' is 'misbehaving' ? from pov of each of the merged nets, ~their~ 'bob' is the 'one troo bob')
18:30 signpost to push the other direction for a sec, might not be worth solving.
18:30 asciilifeform signpost: imho is worth solving ~to extent solvable~
18:30 asciilifeform asciilifeform aint satisfied that it aint solvable.
18:30 shinohai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104881 << both blatta and smalpest work great in my testing, and have noticed 0 issues with 'em talking to each other (e.g. smalpest no longer performs DOS on blatta)
18:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 14:12:22 asciilifeform: iirc jonsykkel's also mostly worx nao
18:30 signpost you either know one, or both, and can disambiguate.
18:31 signpost or you distinguish via which of your l1 knows.
18:31 asciilifeform signpost: and if the merge happens in your l3+ ?
18:31 asciilifeform then cannot distinguish.
18:31 asciilifeform both bobs quite possibly reach you via the same l1 peer.
18:32 signpost if messages flood to all peers equally, and carry no information over which nodes they have propagated, dun see with what to distinguish.
18:32 asciilifeform ( atm they are distinguishable via selfchains, but only if neither 'bob' is deliberately forging )
18:32 signpost right, *hard* distinguish.
18:32 asciilifeform algo ftr, if recall, for 'hard distinguish'. obv. imperfect.
18:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 18:48:29 asciilifeform: thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg.
18:32 asciilifeform but possibly imho worth implementing.
18:34 * asciilifeform not put it in spec, because 1) 100% breaks compat. with all existing clients 2) imho oughta be discussed at length before even to propose in spec
18:34 * signpost horking back into head, sec
18:35 asciilifeform signpost: the essence was, in each message you broadcast, you put in a h(randomturd); in ~n+1st~ message, reveal randomturd.
18:35 signpost right, so in forcing bobs to "show their cards" in subsequent messages, distinguished.
18:35 asciilifeform aha
18:36 signpost got it
18:36 asciilifeform forger in 'mitm' can of course forge messages 0...n. but only for so long as continuously sits b/w the victims.
18:36 phf but how to distinguish "signpost says bob, you're the greatest"
18:37 asciilifeform phf: no clean way of doing so in standard pure-text (irc-style) chat
18:37 asciilifeform ( but hypothetically could , if one could embed 'meta' turdolate, indicate 'which bob' chainwise signpost is speaking of )
18:37 verisimilitude Isn't this just another reason to not use IRC?
18:37 verisimilitude Oh, I see.
18:37 phf this particularly becomes a problem when filtering
18:38 asciilifeform verisimilitude: plenty of reasons 'not to use irc' (e.g. to use netchains for usenet-style threading) but then gotta bake new clients.
18:38 asciilifeform asciilifeform specifically refused to make experimentation w/ pestronics contingent on using some halfbaked cli client
18:38 verisimilitude This really seems intractable in important ways, asciilifeform.
18:38 asciilifeform verisimilitude: which?
18:39 verisimilitude If I be at a party with two bobs, suspend disbelief for this, and I speak of Bob, others will be confused or just know of whom I speak.
18:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in actual practice usually know
18:39 verisimilitude Yes.
18:39 asciilifeform ( and nuffin stops you from asking, 'bob who?' )
18:39 verisimilitude Yes, Bob the best or Bob the bastard.
18:40 asciilifeform 'bob the bridge-builder, or bob the goat-fucker?'(tm)
18:41 signpost "bob who revealed knowledge of S1 vs Sn" ?
18:42 asciilifeform well you can only 'reveal knowledge' of s_n-1
18:42 asciilifeform after hearing s_n+1, ~errybody~ knows s_n
18:42 signpost sorry, "chain of messages denoted by last-known S"
18:42 asciilifeform aaha
18:43 asciilifeform it also allows formulating a meaningful q to 'ask yer l1 peers' (as peer msgs are prima facie authentic)
18:43 signpost discovering forgery does appear to require inquiring with neighbors, yes
18:44 asciilifeform that, or forger runs outta steam eventually
18:46 * asciilifeform recognizes the 'inelegance' of the h(s) scheme , 'yer trying to get the win from rsa sigs w/out paying price of rsa, and will never be as good as Real Thing' but imho over9000x beats 'nuffin'
18:48 asciilifeform a primary objective of pest algo is 'messages cheap enuff to process that you can do it at nic line rate', and sadly incompat. w/ the use of any known serious pubkey sig algo w/out custom iron.
18:48 signpost at least indicates what's intended to be a distinct line of messages.
18:48 asciilifeform aha
18:49 asciilifeform self/net chains primarily for this.
18:49 signpost what if one's l1 peers periodically attested to the head-message of their l1?
18:49 asciilifeform ( cooperating stations simple to distinguish )
18:49 asciilifeform signpost: this already in spec ( 'prod' )
18:49 signpost ah whoops
18:49 signpost then yeah, I don't see a problem with this at the moment.
18:49 asciilifeform ftr
18:49 * signpost will keep digesting
18:49 asciilifeform no hurry
18:51 asciilifeform ( per current spec, all ~well-behaved~ stations on a pestnet, to arbitrary depth, are distinguishable )
18:53 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-06#1104808 << what about it ?
18:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 13:15:49 d4: asciilifeform: what do you think about OTR?
18:54 asciilifeform d4: arguably all pest msgs are 'otr' .
18:55 asciilifeform ( i.e. is impossible to prove later to a third party that you hadn't sent it ~to yourself~ )
18:57 asciilifeform given how there are no private keys in pest, only peering keys known simult. to both ends of a peering.
18:59 asciilifeform d4: see e.g. this thread re what is won from this.
18:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 16:28:52 asciilifeform: thimbronion: it means that if bob is a provocateur, he cannot demonstrate to his employer that alice said $x.
19:01 asciilifeform ^ recs that day's thrds to all pest n00bs, lotsa good discussion imho
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