00:33 |
asciilifeform |
shinohai: lulzy just how tedious of a read these tend to be |
00:36 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-20#1097697 >> 'if you submit a comparator where conditions for irreflexivity or asymmetry are not met, you will find that with 31 elements the program might get into segfault whereas with 30 elements it works just fine' << funnily enuff, asciilifeform once encountered almost exactly such bug in commercial shop |
00:36 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-20 17:27:52 verisimilitude: I'm reading this. |
00:36 |
asciilifeform |
tho there was no c there. folx often enuff reimplement broken c-style logic in $exoticlang and then wonder |
00:42 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-20#1097692 << interestingly, loox like 1989 film was the last where the spammed products are what one'd expect (pistol, camera, rolex, hat, glasses). after that, seems to grow geometrically and include all sortsa rubbish |
00:42 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-20 14:02:36 phf: e.g. https://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/product/nokia-phone-james-bond-no-time-die |
00:43 |
asciilifeform |
e.g. the 1995 one already e.g. car radio, rotgut whiskey, shoes |
00:44 |
asciilifeform |
1999 -- already walkie talkies, flashlights, lol, office furniture.. |
00:45 |
* |
asciilifeform associates ppk pistol with der fuhrer (the other 1, who ate it, not our drowned 1) , rather than bond, for sumreason. |
| |
~ 3 hours 9 minutes ~ |
03:54 |
signpost |
anyone have a good argument for both /{bin,sbin} and /usr/{bin,sbin} existing? |
| |
↖ |
03:57 |
signpost |
I'd previously made PREFIX=/ but that's a bit messy, might instead have PREFIX=/usr for programs as is tradition. |
03:58 |
signpost |
but that makes me question why I'd put only busybox in / when I can just as well put that in /usr/... also. |
03:59 |
signpost |
shell script shebangs come to mind; they'll want the shell at the traditional place. |
04:00 |
signpost |
I can convince myself that the answer to that is somebody symlinking /bin/sh if they want. |
04:00 |
signpost |
anyhow, curious if folks have a strong opinion. |
04:02 |
* |
signpost meanwhile upgraded to gnat-2017, because this didn't require any patching to target musl. removed a shitload of nasty patch cruft I'd accumulated tilting at the gnat-2016 windmill. |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 3 hours 50 minutes ~ |
07:52 |
verisimilitude |
Firstly, imagine having a one megabyte hard disk drive, signpost. |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 5 hours 31 minutes ~ |
13:23 |
phf |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-20#1097715 << if you're going to mess with fhs, then there's no reason to keep /usr at all |
| |
↖ |
13:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-20 23:53:40 signpost: anyone have a good argument for both /{bin,sbin} and /usr/{bin,sbin} existing? |
13:24 |
phf |
traditional lore is that "/usr/ is there because / on the canonical unix pdp ran out of space once" |
| |
↖ |
13:26 |
phf |
at some point /usr/ separation was justified by special permissions on fs level, e.g. on freebsd in the early 2000s it was suggested to mount / rw, and /usr r (since it's all static and compiled stuff) |
13:27 |
phf |
here's what e.g. stali does, https://sta.li/filesystem/ |
13:27 |
phf |
"/usr -> / # softlink pointing to /" |
13:34 |
phf |
oh right, https://twitter.com/foone/status/1059310938354987008, /usr used to be user directories, which is how they have it on plan9 still |
| |
~ 57 minutes ~ |
14:31 |
shinohai |
lmao from the sta.li page "/sucks - stuff that sucks, like ugly gnu library dependencies, or systemd fake handlers" |
| |
~ 49 minutes ~ |
15:20 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-21#1097725 << iirc exactly so |
15:20 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-21 09:23:27 phf: traditional lore is that "/usr/ is there because / on the canonical unix pdp ran out of space once" |
| |
~ 16 minutes ~ |
15:37 |
thimbronion |
Mark Zuckerburg banned from Russia in perpetuity for "creating a russophobic agenda" |
15:44 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
15:45 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion: arsebook already banned in ru last month as 'extremist org' |
15:46 |
asciilifeform |
$ticker btc usd |
15:46 |
busybot |
Current BTC price in USD: $42286.47 |
15:46 |
asciilifeform |
!w poll |
15:46 |
watchglass |
Polling 15 nodes... |
15:46 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.023s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
15:46 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.143s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.154s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
15:46 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732883 (Operator: whaack) |
15:46 |
watchglass |
54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.179s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.189s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.325s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.307s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732636 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.336s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.601s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:46 |
watchglass |
103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.578s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=480191 (Operator: whaack) |
15:46 |
watchglass |
75.106.222.93:8333 : Alive: (0.566s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732883 |
15:47 |
watchglass |
143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.) |
15:48 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-21#1097722 << 1st and smallest hdd asciilifeform ever owned was 20MB |
15:48 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-21 03:51:00 verisimilitude: Firstly, imagine having a one megabyte hard disk drive, signpost. |
15:49 |
asciilifeform |
(pc xt) |
15:50 |
asciilifeform |
prior to that, had 'iskra' w/out hdd, then c64, ditto |
15:52 |
asciilifeform |
can't recall ever seeing a 1MB hdd. |
15:53 |
* |
asciilifeform had built linuxen that sat down in 4MB eeproms, however. |
| |
~ 53 minutes ~ |
16:47 |
signpost |
yeah, was asking whether a good argument remains to retain it. |
16:47 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-21#1097723 << did in fact remove it already, was running this decision by others. |
16:47 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-21 09:22:40 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-20#1097715 << if you're going to mess with fhs, then there's no reason to keep /usr at all |
16:48 |
signpost |
this results in the following root structure http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jADU |
16:50 |
signpost |
another option would be to put everything that regards programs in /usr, which would leave http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=zMuD |
16:50 |
signpost |
nice thing is that these are adjustable by the operator of pentacle. each "pbuild" respects PREFIX and DESTDIR. |
16:51 |
signpost |
this falls out of the tool being designed as a machine that stamps down a userland wherever you may want one, and not strictly a "distro installer" with strong opinions about what installation means. |
| |
↖ |
16:55 |
signpost |
for that matter, it doesn't even have an opinion about what software comprises a given userland. depends on what vtrees you have, and which you choose to build. |
16:56 |
signpost |
(aside that the one in which builds occur has the obvious dependencies, gnat, vtools, musl, posix shell, etc) |
17:07 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-21#1097767 << imho this is The Right Thing |
17:07 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-21 12:50:31 signpost: this falls out of the tool being designed as a machine that stamps down a userland wherever you may want one, and not strictly a "distro installer" with strong opinions about what installation means. |
17:07 |
asciilifeform |
( along with the removal of the oddball historical wart w/ redundant dirs ) |
17:08 |
signpost |
yeah, so far don't need the /usr symlink. if one's writing a pbuild and it breaks on this path, should fix w/e parameter is demanding the path instead. |
17:08 |
signpost |
usually this is PREFIX, or something to do with include or lib paths. |
17:09 |
signpost |
also, looks like right now only things putting anything in sbin are busybox and lilo, so that's easily fixed. |
17:09 |
signpost |
(b-but those bins are speshul!) |
| |
~ 54 minutes ~ |
18:04 |
signpost |
http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=9nVR << another neat detail imho. the concept of "installed" (which is always relative to a given DESTDIR) includes the specific hash of src+pbuild. |
18:05 |
signpost |
I've taken a few steps towards binary reproducibility. I'll release this thing before that's complete, but once it exists the build system can be thought of as a key-value store with src+pbuild hash as key, binary output as value. |
| |
↖ |
18:06 |
signpost |
at which point there can be agreement among wot for what a canonical binary output of a given pbuild should be. |
18:07 |
signpost |
were there a DHT atop pest, one can imagine a scenario where one's server fleet requests the binary representation of $HASH, and gets a trustworthy swarm download reply from friendlies. |
18:10 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: hmm, did we ever find out where gcc ( & gnat iirc ) throw date and random liquishit into binary, making'em irreproducible by default ? |
18:11 |
signpost |
yeah, found a couple cases. __DATE__ and __TIME__ macros of course, but gnat also craps timestamps of other sorts into w/e those library descriptor files are called iirc. |
18:11 |
* |
signpost has a rough patch for latter. |
18:13 |
signpost |
https://reproducible-builds.org/docs/randomness/ << also this |
18:27 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: with gnat, trickier, as it has own 'make' system and needs the timestamps on the intake end. they still have no biz ending up in the bin tho |
18:28 |
* |
signpost figures that hydra battle can come after release of pentacle. it'll be long. |
18:28 |
* |
asciilifeform suspects it's just 1 place in backend that needs patching, there |
| |
~ 23 minutes ~ |
18:51 |
verisimilitude |
This seems to resemble Guix, signpost. |
18:52 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: iirc guix is a straight binary distro neh |
18:53 |
verisimilitude |
No. |
18:55 |
signpost |
I've never used it, nor nix, but would expect many others to have tread this territory. |
18:55 |
verisimilitude |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-21#1097778 This is like /gnu/store/. |
18:55 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-21 14:04:03 signpost: I've taken a few steps towards binary reproducibility. I'll release this thing before that's complete, but once it exists the build system can be thought of as a key-value store with src+pbuild hash as key, binary output as value. |
18:55 |
asciilifeform |
a hm apparently in fact source distro, but missing essential banhammer mechanism. |
18:56 |
* |
asciilifeform not tried |
18:56 |
signpost |
being built atop one's own vpatches means there is no such thing here as "the" distro. |
18:56 |
asciilifeform |
^ |
18:56 |
asciilifeform |
could refer to the basic package (vtron, booter, etc) as 'the distro' but sure |
18:56 |
signpost |
but this wouldn't make me hesitate to lift good ideas from others. quite the contrary. |
18:57 |
signpost |
asciilifeform: yep, there's at least what to bootstrap the thing that need be defined. |
18:58 |
* |
signpost building outward from that, solves problems as they're encountered. couple of hundred lines of posix shell atm. |
18:59 |
signpost |
ought to never be significantly larger than this in the core, nor should core rely on python here, ruby there, brainfuck... |
18:59 |
* |
asciilifeform wonders whether the guix people found & patched the gcc random backend turd thing |
19:00 |
signpost |
deserves a look. |
19:01 |
signpost |
(btw re: python, this isn't equiv to "python bad, banned!11". if you ask the machine for a blatta, of course python.) |
19:01 |
asciilifeform |
right, simply banished from center stage |
19:01 |
asciilifeform |
( apropos/oblig, asciilifeform's longterm pov re sh & scripting langs ) |
19:02 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-17 13:41:46 asciilifeform: mangol: what's imho needed is a fully 'autarkik' scripting lang, which sucks in 0 shitlibs and runs, like 'M', on any extant pc iron under all linuxen from past ~15y |
19:02 |
signpost |
100%. |
19:03 |
asciilifeform |
(through this lens, obv. that pythonism is the reason why no gentoo is ever sitting down in 4MB) |
19:03 |
signpost |
later, when pestron's had that doesn't demand a python, python oughta slip out just as politely as in. |
19:04 |
asciilifeform |
the only reason wai e.g. this proggy, or asciilifeform's vtron, or logotron, etc. in py, is that no ecologically clean alternative avail. |
19:05 |
signpost |
mhm. |
19:06 |
signpost |
slips out politely if authors are diligent enough to avoid unnecessary interdependency, avoid signing wanton pbuilds. |
19:07 |
* |
signpost not sure it's the case, but to contrive an example, say qemu wants python, but can be patched to not. |
19:07 |
signpost |
(and it's useful without) |
19:07 |
signpost |
in this case it'd be proper to patch out the dependency. |
19:09 |
signpost |
but should there be factions that disagree, guidoism can live on under the keys that believe in him. can just distrust those keys, schism happily. |
| |
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~ |
20:21 |
Mocky |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091821 << I mean, 46 is not *that* old |
20:21 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-31 23:32:14 asciilifeform: send an old man to qatar. comes back broke and with nuffin, let'im starve, then try & find another idiot |
20:22 |
signpost |
lol! |
20:22 |
signpost |
howdy Mocky |
20:23 |
Mocky |
funny that I dispute the 'old' but not the 'idiot', I guess maybe idiot can theoretically improve but old guaranteed to get worse |
20:23 |
Mocky |
Heya signpost |
20:28 |
Mocky |
I haven't been keeping up with the latest, just read report of MP's death. Reminded me of TMSR, wondering what other folks have been doing since then, while I've been working on earning my freedom (not yet successfully but making progress) |
| |
~ 19 minutes ~ |
20:48 |
asciilifeform |
oh hey that Mocky ?! |
20:48 |
Mocky |
same Mocky, yes |
20:49 |
* |
asciilifeform genuinely thought fella was dead |
20:49 |
asciilifeform |
!!key Mocky |
20:49 |
deedbot |
http://wot.deedbot.org/D6EC973F1D3C91CC1DD0AD43CF32BD2C54C2F93D.asc |
20:50 |
Mocky |
read the last few weeks of #a logs, quite good discussion 2 days ago re: republic days |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
wb to the living, Mocky . and dun feel sad re 'other idiot', asciilifeform was 1st (maybe 2nd) in the queue |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
Mocky: didja ever make it back from arabia ? or still there ? |
20:52 |
asciilifeform |
wilkommen to #a, btw, Mocky . ( and be sure to try out pestnet, to where the action slowly moving ) |
20:53 |
Mocky |
Made it back ok, after 2 months there. Then spent next year getting back on my feet, scraping together funds to pay back my loan |
20:53 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2018-11-15 deedbot: mircea_popescu paid Mocky 1 |
20:53 |
asciilifeform |
a |
20:55 |
Mocky |
I started to read the pest spec, look a lot more concrete than orig gossipd spec |
20:55 |
asciilifeform |
was baked to be painfully, pedantically concrete. tho still needs serious work in certain places. |
20:55 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion's thing implements ~90% of it |
20:56 |
asciilifeform |
current draft of spec ftr. |
20:57 |
asciilifeform |
pestnet contains most of the #a folx, and going for coupla month nao. |
20:57 |
* |
asciilifeform aims to bridge dulapnet to pestnet in some sane way, and operate #a as a n00b portal strictly |
20:58 |
Mocky |
is thimbronion's impl linked from your www? |
20:58 |
asciilifeform |
http://www.loper-os.org/?p=4003#selection-59.0-75.37 |
21:00 |
Mocky |
ah, thanks. I'll stand one up, here (Raleigh, NC) |
21:00 |
asciilifeform |
there's also a c client by jonsykkel ( asciilifeform not yet tested, but iirc shinohai is using it, worx ) |
| |
↖ |
21:00 |
asciilifeform |
%genkey |
21:00 |
asciilifeform |
grr wrong term lol |
21:01 |
Mocky |
lol |
21:01 |
Mocky |
!!seen lobbes |
21:01 |
deedbot |
2021/04/25 01:45:34 <lobbes> http://alt.ericbenevides.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-04-24#1034503 << ty! will do |
21:01 |
asciilifeform |
!q seen-anywhere lobbes |
21:01 |
dulapbot |
lobbes last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-07-31 19:10:38: once re-established a home base of operations, I'll be able to sort some things out |
21:01 |
asciilifeform |
^ moar recent |
21:01 |
Mocky |
gotcha |
21:03 |
asciilifeform |
Mocky: peering key for you, for asciilifeform's station. |
21:04 |
asciilifeform |
be sure to check sig. |
21:05 |
* |
asciilifeform must bbl |
| |
~ 16 minutes ~ |
21:21 |
verisimilitude |
Hello, Mocky; this is our first meeting. |
21:35 |
Mocky |
Ah yes, I think we never have spoken. What are you up to lately? |
21:35 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2019-02-05 mircea_popescu: !!rate verisimilitude -1 children, seen and not heard. |
21:37 |
shinohai |
$ticker btc usd |
21:37 |
busybot |
Current BTC price in USD: $40826.82 |
21:38 |
shinohai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-21#1097847 << using blatta for own station, smalpest for bot atm. |
21:38 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-21 16:58:55 asciilifeform: there's also a c client by jonsykkel ( asciilifeform not yet tested, but iirc shinohai is using it, worx ) |
21:44 |
verisimilitude |
I feel like I got the last laugh there. |
21:44 |
verisimilitude |
I'm working on my language modelling right now. |
21:44 |
verisimilitude |
This is my most recent program. |
21:46 |
verisimilitude |
My Latin is still too immature for this, so I'm doing toy versions first, for the most part. |
21:52 |
Mocky |
I'm guessing that this is a UDP binding for Ada. guessing because it doesn't seem to say that anywhere I could see on first scan, amidst The Raven parody |
21:53 |
Mocky |
did you craft your comments to all end exactly on the 100 character width? |
21:54 |
Mocky |
It's not obvious to me what that has to do with language modelling or Latin |
21:58 |
verisimilitude |
Yes, I do craft my writing so. |
21:58 |
verisimilitude |
The language modelling is on a different page. |
22:00 |
verisimilitude |
Here are those articles. |
22:01 |
verisimilitude |
Also, the UDP actually is relevant to that; I'll explain. |
22:03 |
verisimilitude |
I'll go ahead and share that I'm working on something which will be like Whitaker's Words, but I'm taking a very different approach to it. |
22:03 |
verisimilitude |
I realized a ways back my language modelling work gives me a Whitaker's Words style of program with little extra work. It ``falls out'' of the functionality responsible for converting a character stream into the new representation. With that, I just hook it up differently to get the Words program. |
22:04 |
verisimilitude |
One of the interfaces will be an Ada program for a question-response system over UDP. |
22:18 |
signpost |
interested to see how this develops. |
22:19 |
Mocky |
I took 4 years of Latin in high school. Had the (self proclaimed) rare teacher who made us speak it every day |
22:20 |
signpost |
language itself is a graph, right? not a text-stream, even if we encode the mouth noises that way. |
22:20 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-12-21#1587276 |
22:20 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2016-12-21 mircea_popescu: because no, words don't "have meanings". your meanings for ANY WORD are a function of ALL THE OTHER WORDS YOU KNOW. which is why my definitions regularily blow out english dictionaries, wikipedia and other sources of "wisdom" out of the water - i know more words, and in this knowledge i know all the words i know ~better~. infinitely and irreproducibly so. |
22:20 |
verisimilitude |
I intend to have a toy version targeting toki pona within the month, signpost. |
| |
~ 28 minutes ~ |
22:49 |
signpost |
hell, that was an enjoyable thread, reread. |
22:59 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: to make mp's statement more applicable to this thread, on the language graph nodes are not strictly whole words. circum-ambul-are for example, as relates to say per-ambul-are. |
22:59 |
signpost |
will look forward to your item. |
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~ 35 minutes ~ |
23:34 |
verisimilitude |
This circum-ambul-are is simply the preposition CIRCVM prefixing the infinitive AMBVLÄ€RE. |
23:35 |
verisimilitude |
The per-ambul-are is similar. |
23:35 |
verisimilitude |
This can be codified. |
23:37 |
verisimilitude |
However, recall tabular programming, signpost; intelligence or even particular creativity is unnecessary when every valid combination may be explicitly listed. |
23:44 |
signpost |
I know what the parts of those two words are and mean; do you know what I meant by making reference to them? |
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23:55 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: I find your writing style an annoying barrier, but am I correct that you're saying it's better to have a lookup table for all possible inputs than to write a simple parser for roman numerals? |
23:55 |
signpost |
(this is bizarre, if so) |
23:58 |
verisimilitude |
Sure; notice I use a small subset of the full table to get the same effect. |
23:59 |
verisimilitude |
Consider how many parsers will return 99 for IC, whereas mine never will, unless explicitly told to do so. |