Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-04-18 | 2022-04-20 →
03:21 * adlai has been pondering what are good targets for the next programming binge
03:22 verisimilitude Elaborate.
03:22 adlai fwiw, I have a REPL running on ~every computer I use, occasionally even on the smartphones;
03:23 adlai 'programming binge' means several days where I prepare in advance to minimize distractions, possibly even to the point of planning them out, meal by meal, and then focus on one problem with the goal of having files of reusable by the end of it.
03:25 verisimilitude It's easier to rewrite when doing that.
03:26 verisimilitude It was fun to rewrite a long function, successfully improving it, and then realize six hours had passed.
03:26 adlai one set of targets that has occurred to me frequently is improving my site. currently it's mostly bunch of stuff snarfed in by quicklisp, with some minimal customisations on top; and quite unsuited for anything beyond a static site.
03:27 adlai by the way, I found the scrollback about the various options to CL:EVAL-WHEN kind of... horrifying.
03:27 verisimilitude Oh, I'm doing something similar lately. I want to have some programs to generate my website for me now.
03:28 adlai the different times in Common Lisp are incredibly well defined, and this is for a reason; and if you ever get them all mixed up, that is your own understanding being incomplete. there are good reasons for all three of them, and I have never encountered a case for any others.
03:28 verisimilitude I disagree; I find it disgustingly ugly.
03:28 adlai now, arguably, you could take what I just said literally and claim that there are between one and eight possible times, being the non-empty powerset of runtime, load-time, and compile-time.
03:28 verisimilitude A better programming model would eliminate them.
03:29 verisimilitude Let there be one time, or no times.
03:29 adlai you're forgetting that Common Lisp was standardized for computers that existed then, and still exist now; it's not Arc, which Paul Graham wrote (writes?) with the stated goal of only seeming sane after half a century has elapsed.
03:30 verisimilitude Well, I don't like programming ``languages'' in general.
03:31 adlai consider how you wouldn't write the same sentences for children and adults, if you were composing a text about grammar.
03:31 verisimilitude My Latin book slowly builds the complexity.
03:32 adlai you might plausibly find some topics where you'd speak to everyone using identical words and grammatical forms, yet there's much to be said for adapting to both context and audience.
03:35 adlai what I call 'the monolithic mood' is suitable for when you're considering only pure functions, and even then, if you use any modern lisp dialect, you still have the division between functions and macros.
03:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-18 23:28:05 verisimilitude: Let there be one time, or no times.
03:37 adlai 'mood', in parallel to imperative, indicative, subjunctive etc moods, of languages; if 'monolithic' is not self-explanatory in that context, I guess I can talk that out, too.
03:38 verisimilitude Well, now we reach Lisp not being good, per se, just better.
03:39 verisimilitude Well, it's decent.
03:42 adlai I wonder what exactly is meant by 'AI-complete' ; I suspect this is not delimitable as a specific complexity class, nor like pornography, only recognizable by another AI-complete system...
03:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-30 12:47:09 asciilifeform: it 'works' well enuff for fiction on ru warez sites, but this only because 'over 9000' readers and they send in corrections.
03:42 adlai god damnit.
03:43 verisimilitude Translation isn't AI-complete.
03:43 adlai I wanted to link directly to this line
03:43 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-30 12:47:38 asciilifeform: ai-complete(tm)(r)(c).
03:43 adlai verisimilitude: no offense intended, however, this specific question is a specifically for the guy who seems to have coined that neologism.
03:45 adlai although I guess if you read the token "AI-complete" and it returns a high-confidence hit, instead of yet another shot into the great open space fair game for fresh neologisation, then please share your definition.
03:45 verisimilitude No offense intended, but that man doesn't use this channel.
03:46 * adlai frequently suffers from "TMSR myopia" ; thinking that all fresh ideas invented by the interlocutor
03:46 verisimilitude The concept of AI-complete refers to something that seemingly requires a complete intelligence to properly work.
03:46 verisimilitude Chess doesn't, and driving probably does.
03:47 adlai I consider "complete intelligence" almost harmfully underdefined, and intentionally am locking onto the parallel to "NP-complete"
03:47 verisimilitude For its worth, adlai, the ideas I share here do tend to be my creations.
03:48 verisimilitude The concept of AI-complete refers to something that seemingly requires a complete human intelligence to properly work.
03:48 adlai for example, in the context of document handling, there are obviously parts of the problem that can be called 'secretarial', or 'stenographic', or whatever euphemism sufficiently conveys the complement of 'AI-complete' in problem-space.
03:49 verisimilitude The reason driving is likely AI-complete is because it involves real-world interaction.
03:50 adlai and operating arms in assembly lines does not?
03:50 verisimilitude Consider edge cases such as a truck driving road signs or stop lights to their destinations; no humans reasonably fail to accomodate these and other scenarios.
03:51 adlai lol!
03:51 adlai humans are frequently abysmal drivers, and commonly mediocre enough that it is child's play for a traffic cop to find fault with how they are driving.
03:52 verisimilitude Humans can generally drive, whereas computers generally can't, however.
03:53 adlai if there is anything fundamentally AI-complete about driving an automobile on a public way, that is not present in operating arms in an assembly line, it is probably the fact that factory floors are not kingdoms of uncertainty; whereas wildlife (both human and otherwise) frequently wanders onto the public roads.
03:53 verisimilitude Yes.
03:55 adlai I dunno that "humans" and "computers" are useful words in this specific conversation; seriously, I am asking for fundamental characteristics of 'AI-complete problem', and those words only kick aside the issue.
03:55 adlai it's a question about the nature of the problems, assuming that they are being attacked by programs; not about the hardware running those programs.
03:58 verisimilitude See page nine.
03:58 * adlai asked this specifically because the term sufficed to kill my curiosity earlier, and perhaps understanding it can improve the process of choosing the next target.
03:59 verisimilitude AI interests me not.
03:59 * adlai sighs
03:59 verisimilitude IA interests me.
03:59 adlai do you ever use semicolons? between your last two lines is an excellent place for one, instead of separate lines.
04:00 adlai maybe you simply ran out of air :)
04:00 verisimilitude I often use semicolons.
04:00 * adlai frequently applies similar heuristic when playing piano; "if my neighbor who plays trumpet has to stop for air, then I should too"
04:01 verisimilitude I didn't there, for emphasis.
04:01 adlai yet somehow, stereotype is that brass piss off neighbors, and piano is the polite instrument.
04:03 verisimilitude Say, adlai, have we discussed tabular programming yet?
04:03 adlai you and I have not.
04:03 verisimilitude Shall we?
04:04 adlai "do not ask to ask [to talk]" ...
04:04 verisimilitude Read this: http://verisimilitudes.net/2022-01-31
04:08 adlai need I read four thousand lines of roman numerals to understand your question?
04:08 verisimilitude That's probably unnecessary.
04:09 verisimilitude Feel free to close the little arrow and again collapse that segment.
04:09 adlai why have you included the entire table in the article, instead of only the start, end, and perhaps a few interesting bits, if the specific example of roman numerals is relevant?
04:09 adlai the collapsing interface does not appear in the browser I'm using right now (w3m)
04:09 verisimilitude Is lynx available?
04:10 adlai it's further away than skipping to the end of the table and reading onwards from there :)
04:11 verisimilitude Well, consider reading this instead: gopher://verisimilitudes.net/12022-01-31
04:12 * adlai has had similar complaints about many books that when discussing e.g. powers of two, waste entire lines of printed text on naming dozens of numbers in the series, before finally including something along the lines of "listing these is a waste of space, what the authors actually wanted to say was..."
04:12 verisimilitude It will read much better over Gopher adlai, trust me.
04:12 adlai I don't have a dedicated gopher browser on this machine, although I did find gopher apps for the smartphone.
04:12 verisimilitude That's why I mentioned lynx.
04:12 adlai aha
04:13 verisimilitude Hell, I can show you how to pipe the output of netcat into less, even; it's that simple.
04:15 verisimilitude printf '2022-01-31.read\r\n' | netcat verisimilitudes.net 70 | less
04:16 verisimilitude My writing is immaculate.
04:16 * adlai typically chats here with w3m browser open to logs.nosuchlabs.com available; opening port 80 with http browser does not involve starting new terminals.
04:17 verisimilitude It won't look as good, know.
04:17 verisimilitude My Gopher hole is optimized for this; my website isn't.
04:20 adlai fwiw, I find your code sample a better explanation than the prose article, if only because I'm more comfortable reading the shorter amount of code in meticulous detail, than skimming over the prose and then claiming to have read it. [pun unavoidable, I guess?]
04:20 verisimilitude The article is infinitely more valuable.
04:22 adlai so, do you have a specific question about this programming style?
04:22 adlai I agree with you that it's superior when the problem space can be factored apart like this.
04:23 verisimilitude I don't have a particular question, no.
04:24 adlai however, roman numerals are only one example; you even mention in the paragraph before the monstrous listing, that the problem space is tiny.
04:24 verisimilitude I've ways to apply this style to language problems, adlai.
04:26 verisimilitude The composition rules allow one to extend them unto infinity.
04:28 verisimilitude Proving correctness and equivalency are also trivial under this model.
04:29 verisimilitude I just like it, adlai.
04:32 adlai what do you mean by the confession in the comment at the end of the source code?
04:33 adlai i.e. why do you say that code falls short of your [unspecified!] standards
04:33 * adlai may have not read another post where you outline these standards
04:33 verisimilitude Lisp dissatisfies me.
04:34 verisimilitude The Lisp will eventually rot; the article won't.
04:34 adlai why do you insist on writing ANSI Common Lisp then, instead of choosing a compiler and operating system, and targeting those?
04:35 verisimilitude They're worse.
04:35 adlai ANSI Common Lisp does not rot, it simply turns into fossilized prions.
04:36 verisimilitude It falls short of the beauty in my mind.
04:36 verisimilitude Even Ada does, for this.
04:37 adlai what examples do you have of syntax that does meet your standards?
04:37 verisimilitude I loathe syntax.
04:38 adlai you seem happy enough spewing eigth-bit-clean grammatically immaculate English, though!
04:38 verisimilitude A human language is different.
04:39 verisimilitude Those are things of beauty; meanwhile, the ``programming language'' shouldn't exist.
04:39 adlai still, you must have some notation for describing the territory, even if you reflexively write "map not territory" like jew writing "by the grace of the lord"
04:40 verisimilitude Well, for this, I had the tables outlined and I used + to mean concatenation.
04:41 adlai in case you are unfamiliar, "by the grace of the lord" is the jewish equivalent of "god bless america", a sort of linguistic tic that gets included into every written document.
04:41 verisimilitude My goal is a high-level programming tool, as mine MMC is a low-level programming tool.
04:42 verisimilitude The current MMC implementations define a character set from which to write the names, but that's unnecessary; with better fundamentals, I may have machine addresses and values labelled with arbitrary drawings.
04:42 adlai most usually only include a three-letter acronym, pronounced "basad"; one day when I was instructing soldiers, dude who probably was getting his hand warmed up before starting to answer questions, turns in exam paper with an actual macroexpansion written out by hand, "besiyua d' naale venatsliyakh"
04:44 * adlai considers this roughly equivalent to the CollegeBoard SAT's computational rule, "you get 200 points for signing your name"
04:46 adlai arbitrary drawings are nonlinear and multidimensional; the marked advantage of programming languages is that they are typically linear monodimensional.
04:47 adlai e.g., you can read a common lisp program aloud, without wondering whether you should begin reading in some curve other than dictionary order of character locations.
04:49 adlai perhaps my next target should be something related to graphics; I do recall one of asciilifeform's first comments when I launched my site, and possibly the only comment, was "get camera, post pictures, instead of drinking and writing text"
04:50 verisimilitude I've solutions to these and other problems.
04:51 verisimilitude Tell me thy website's URL again.
04:52 adlai not quite an entire URL, although 80.244.243.194:7421 oughtta speak HTTP
04:54 adlai note that this is quite explicitly not the kind of thing some people expect when they deconstruct "blog", or "website".
04:55 adlai apparently some folks have an activation barrier similar to "must be worth killing trees to print" when considering material for publication, even if only text at the WWW.
04:55 verisimilitude Oh, to be able to read and natively understand all of the Latin therein, and not merely most of it.
04:56 adlai may I inquire why you requested /css/style.css twice in succession?
04:56 verisimilitude I didn't.
04:56 verisimilitude Firefox may have.
04:57 adlai s/you/$0r intermediaries/, I guess.
04:57 adlai modern web browsers are also intermediaries, often quite active.
04:58 adlai e.g., for a while (and possibly even so today), google chrome with default settings performed behavioral analysis on which links people clicked, and prefetched pages before the human clicked links.
04:59 adlai this is doubly strange: your connection requested the stylesheet twice; and my server did not return an unchanged status, barfed the entire thing again.
05:00 adlai it does occasionally return unchanged status, instead of barfing. I guess I'd have to entomologise the HTTP garbage more deeply than I care to do right now, to understand this behavior.
05:02 adlai aaanyway, there is an RSS, although it's not linked anywhere in the HTML pages; however, I don't link you to it because it is incredibly verbose, and I'm uncertain what entry point URL has reasonable replies indefinitely.
05:04 adlai I guess if you visit /posts/documentation-meta-tag.html you can glance at the tag soup and months to see if there are new posts, and spider along at your own whims from there.
05:04 verisimilitude I notice in my logs that sometimes requests are made twice.
05:04 adlai the ordering of the months and tags is recomputed pseudorandomly each time I rebuild the static site, which is pretty much only when I publish a new post.
05:07 adlai I'm quite hesitant to set bikeshedding of the static site generator and HTTP server as my next target, yet perhaps it's a good one for returning to programming.
05:08 adlai aaanyway, this has been almost two hours of chitchat, and I'm wasting sunlight.
05:10 verisimilitude ``never tell anyone you are richer than they thought you were before. welcome to the new elite, Isaac! by the way in jew that means "will cry"''
05:10 verisimilitude This amused me.
05:13 adlai it's an extreme example of creative misinterpretation; the latin alphabet does not express correctly the modern hebrew pronounciation that makes it technically correct.
05:13 adlai the idiomatic translation of that name is "will laugh".
05:14 adlai (most likely, the biblically correct one, too; what can I say, if a post is tagged 'venom', it probably has linguistic landmines!)
05:25 verisimilitude http://adlai.uncommon-lisp.org:7421/posts/Popescu-for-Plebesci.html This is funny, but I question why it was written.
05:26 verisimilitude I don't yet know enough Latin to fully translate it.
~ 59 minutes ~
06:25 adlai "Cassel's" is the name of a dictionary that I'd recently purchased, and was recommended frequently when I studied Latin in school.
06:26 adlai why that was written is a separate question from why it was published.
06:27 adlai consider the fact that it's a post opening with a log quote from a guy who frequently interjected romance languages as though the entire audience, if not polyglots, at least had random access to the contents of his own mind.
06:28 adlai so your question "why it was written", is similar to asking an audience member at some seminar, "why did you leave your nigh-illegible notes where anyone else could read them?"
06:29 adlai instead of... dunno, what do you expect to be the fate of unfinished garbage? everything can't get shredded, that's too expensive.
06:30 adlai at the time, I was experimenting with the new static site generator, and was finding my way around a new copy of the dictionary, to dust off a language I had neither read nor written in years.
06:30 adlai this is not a funny answer, and I question why I'm still writing it here!
~ 1 hours 33 minutes ~
08:04 cdd http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094138 << would like to know if phf has made sauce dump of orig. logotron (or ever will)
08:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 22:52:42 asciilifeform: was quite fond of phf's logotron, to this day not copied all the pheatures (e.g. backlinkage)
08:06 * cdd is not sure if this logotron is the one, thought it was written in cl
08:07 cdd sigs not phf's
08:10 cdd I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
08:11 cdd it's easy for asci to "fit in head" the entirety of every conversation and date, but for newb the endless trawl is foreboding to say the least
08:15 cdd also, wdym by 'backlinkage?'
08:24 cdd also, wondering if anyone has rigged vpatch for emacs to live-patch a repl?
08:25 cdd would be possible to have 100% uptime on lisp-based daemons
08:25 cdd (not counting outages)
08:25 verisimilitude What?
08:25 verisimilitude Just use Slime.
08:25 cdd ye ^^
08:26 cdd but rig vpatch for slime
08:26 cdd so can just read, then apply straight to running proggy
08:26 cdd no downtime
08:27 cdd asking if been done before, not for someone to do
08:29 cdd would like to also make it clear that just making patches then loading w/ slime is also possible, but would be nice to automate
08:29 cdd s/slime/slime manually/
~ 4 hours 41 minutes ~
13:11 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096886 << mno, that one's asciilifeform's logotron
13:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:05:30 cdd: is not sure if this logotron is the one, thought it was written in cl
13:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << afaik not
13:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:03:24 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094138 << would like to know if phf has made sauce dump of orig. logotron (or ever will)
13:13 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096900 << nope
13:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:25:53 cdd: asking if been done before, not for someone to do
13:14 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << no support for date ranges in search box atm. you can do e.g. f:speaker whatevertext tho
13:14 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:09:31 cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
~ 35 minutes ~
13:50 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
13:50 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $41325.38
13:50 asciilifeform !w poll
13:50 watchglass Polling 15 nodes...
13:50 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.060s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.094s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542 (Operator: asciilifeform)
13:50 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.110s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542 (Operator: asciilifeform)
13:50 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=732542 (Operator: whaack)
13:50 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.214s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.309s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.276s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.397s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732216
13:50 watchglass 75.106.222.93:8333 : Could not connect!
13:50 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.611s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=732542
13:50 watchglass 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.536s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=466228 (Operator: whaack)
13:52 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
13:53 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096757 << whether or not 'ai-complete', in fact not advanced substantially in last half century.
13:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-18 23:41:50 verisimilitude: Translation isn't AI-complete.
13:53 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-06-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: google translator is pretty much same 1970s lultron as produced 'the vodka is tasty but the meat -- rotten' from 'spirit is willing but flesh is weak', famously
13:54 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096730 << consider writing a pestron.
13:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-18 23:19:45 adlai: has been pondering what are good targets for the next programming binge
13:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096768 << well, >= human, but yes
13:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-18 23:46:51 verisimilitude: The concept of AI-complete refers to something that seemingly requires a complete human intelligence to properly work.
13:55 asciilifeform ( observe that most humans are not particularly good at it fwiw )
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
15:30 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about building shared
15:30 phf tooling among lords. when the concept of lordship became meaningless, so did the incentive to participate.
15:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:03:24 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094138 << would like to know if phf has made sauce dump of orig. logotron (or ever will)
15:38 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << just write it then? a lowest end of effort that's less than 3 hours of work time. log format is standard, i don't know what asciilifeform is dumping it as, but back in my day i made sure it was kako's id;timestamp;nick;message. less than an hour of work to load it into sqlite, then your hypothetical query becomes a trivial sql statement
15:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:09:31 cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
15:38 asciilifeform phf: somehow, some folx still participating! tho no lords, no 1e3year-reich, etc.
15:39 phf asciilifeform: can't speak for other folks, i'm speaking for myself. this was the way of the republic, one speaks for himself :p
15:39 * asciilifeform won't pressure phf or anyone else who dun feel like publishing $item; but will note that life moar interesting when post src, folx can experiment, fix
15:41 phf asciilifeform: vtools is public, some work was done on it under mp's whip, but smh still no "smart rename"
15:41 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096941 << asciilifeform's logotron internally sqlistic , and also shits phf-formatted export
15:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:37:22 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << just write it then? a lowest end of effort that's less than 3 hours of work time. log format is standard, i don't know what asciilifeform is dumping it as, but back in my day i made sure it was kako's id;timestamp;nick;message. less than an hour of work to load it into sqlite, then your hypothetical query becomes a trivial sql statement
15:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-27 11:13:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089440 << there's a raw-log knob, which yields up to 500 ln, e.g.
15:42 asciilifeform phf: imho 'smart rename' thing was ill-conceived, would break compat. w/ hand-cranked patch -p0 < foo.patch
15:45 phf asciilifeform: sure but that's not why it wasn't implemented
15:47 asciilifeform phf: i dun recall who if anyone attempted to implement that one
15:49 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096938 << imho it was a nifty item, and good example of efficient cl, sumthing of which not many posted publicly. but, again, won't make 'moralistic' wank outta it, if author not feels it to be publication-worthy, or not has time/inclination to answer q's re mechanisms, or whatever reason, then not post.
15:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:28:49 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about b
15:50 phf in general i think that early tmsr provided an alternative incentive structure, but it's possible i was the only one who thought that way. it was in my mind somewhat equivalent to greek (and other pre-modern) gift giving system. it's called a gift, but it is otherwise a very mercantile exchange. x brought a logotron, so that y brings a deedbot, so that z brings ... and all is accounted, without necessarily keeping an explicit ledger.
15:51 asciilifeform phf: not so diff. from how folx bring food to a party, aha
15:53 signpost yep, exactly that.
15:53 asciilifeform atm we have a much smaller but in fact rather similar party. signpost brought deedbot , asciilifeform -- rack, dulapnet, pest spec, various trbisms; thimbronion -- blatta; billymg -- noad walker; shinohai -- mirrors; various other folx -- useful commentary (e.g. punkman returned briefly and participated in pest spec hammering) ; etc
15:54 asciilifeform no one brought '1000yr reich' but asciilifeform, speaking only for self, dun miss it
15:54 asciilifeform signpost has buncha interesting things in the pipeline; possib. other folx also
15:56 * asciilifeform if left anyone out of ^ list -- not intentionally
15:56 asciilifeform simply example.
15:56 signpost re: reich, yep. screeching that "if we stopped eating, v-tronic distro (or whatever else) would come more quickly" adds 0.
15:56 phf asciilifeform: imho a body without the head. and i'm not talking about mp, in fact i think mp attempted to usurp the head, that was never the leas briefly there, which was, in my mind, collective and organic decision process by the lordship.
15:56 asciilifeform 'learn to eat tree bark! compute with branches and moss!' lol
15:58 asciilifeform phf: imho dragon w/ n heads, and worx better than one'd expect
15:58 signpost phf: brief blip of the most solidarity I've ever seen directly.
15:58 phf open sores communiti? :>
15:59 asciilifeform phf: lol
16:01 asciilifeform moar of jazz band.
16:03 asciilifeform phf: observe that 'n heads' is explicitly part of e.g. pest ideology.
16:03 phf oh please
16:06 phf pest ideology was already flushed out in the early tmsr days, stems directly from the idea of sovereignty and lordship.
16:07 asciilifeform phf: rather diff. notion of sovereignty. ( what means 'lord' where there are no peons? )
16:08 asciilifeform imho that's large part of what made mp's scheme so laffable -- hey, we're lords!11 the slaves -- forthcoming any day nao!1
16:09 signpost phf: major difference would be the idea that there's a center, which was nominally deedbot, but was factually mp.
16:09 phf see i had time to process tmsr, being away and all, can separate the wheat from the chaff. before mp turned into a kako style boogeyman, had plenty of great ideas
16:09 signpost but yes, entirely compatible with the actual definition of a peerage.
16:11 * asciilifeform ftr can't think of even 1 technical idea the fella had (rather than lifted) that wasn't an unmitigated disaster.
16:11 signpost were one to pest-tronically have the rest of a traditional hierarchy, there'd be a hierarchy of networks with formalized ways of passing messages up and down between them.
16:12 asciilifeform signpost: observe that the protocol allows for any topology you like (even 'star'). simply doesn't trap anyone in it.
16:12 phf signpost: i think that's a subversion, deedot was there to keep wot, was a central point of failure as a side effect of implementation, and ended up being exploited as a single point of control
16:12 signpost indeed
16:12 signpost to both points
16:13 phf asciilifeform: i like how my whole rant is about "needs more than just technical", and your criticism is of mp's technical ideas.
16:14 * signpost recalls a trilema post regarding the benefits of traditional hierarchial societies, that even the common man had a much better chance of having his problems heard and addressed than modern democracy.
16:14 asciilifeform phf: not about to disagree w/ 'needs moar than technical'. asciilifeform neither could nor inclined to try to supply mp-style ideological programme, beyond what already supplies informally in the logs. imho was largely empty effort even when mp, 'qualified specialist', if you like, was doing it.
16:15 signpost wasn't his, in the sense that history belongs to no man, but the presentation of that idea changed my mind on the spot.
16:15 phf this is a trope at this point, any time we go about discussing the olden tmsr ways it devolves into mp bad. i think it makes this kinds of conversations entirely unproductive
16:15 signpost phf: perhaps also say at length what was good.
16:15 asciilifeform ^
16:15 phf signpost: that's where we were, couple of lines above, before the conversation turned into mp bad derailment.
16:16 signpost so re-rail!
16:17 * signpost threatens to trigger phf with novice discussion of the null set!
16:17 asciilifeform lol
16:18 * asciilifeform ftr interested in what phf has re subj, will listen
16:19 phf well, i now i have the pulpit, but i don't have any answers :D
16:19 asciilifeform phf: questions ok too, lol
16:22 * asciilifeform ftr holds that mp boxed himself into ideological corner; could've quite easily amped the pace of construction work over9000x but lolno.
16:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:55:07 signpost: re: reich, yep. screeching that "if we stopped eating, v-tronic distro (or whatever else) would come more quickly" adds 0.
16:22 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-18 11:28:20 asciilifeform: ... problem is, is very difficult to increase the amt of useful work with coin (aside from, hypothetically, jailbreaking ~people~, ideally 2-3 people. but piggy -- or 'sandwich-adjusted' exchrate -- would have to be ~10x bigger to make this plausible)
16:24 asciilifeform ( and this wasn't the only such corner. fuhrers as a class have difficult time with concept of admitting error and backtracking, 'erodes auctoritas')
16:24 phf my point is that tmsr provided a structure, to which all were contributors, mp among them, and the technical both came from this structure and was incentivised by it. i'm not opposed to the format of "computer club", hence writing peh or whatever, but i think we could at least agree that the structure that tmsr provided, acknowledging both the larp and the cringe, went well beyond "computer club"
16:27 signpost not to shotgun links, but http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=from%3Asignpost+republic&chan=asciilifeform
16:27 signpost I agree 100%.
16:27 signpost it was first an ideologically distinct place to which one could defect, rebuild himself.
16:27 signpost this was liberating, and is not diminished at all by the failure of the social experiment.
16:27 phf asciilifeform: i have zero interest in this line of conversation, it smells too much of kakobreka style butthurt. how many ways is there to say "mp bad". this is also reminiscent of the previous horses conversations "riding horses is fun" "but what about all the douchebags??"
16:28 asciilifeform phf: imho 'men's club' with rough agreement on ideology is in fact less 'cringe' than pretense at 'revolutionary movement' with ~0 resources. but this may be 'religious' q.
16:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
16:28 asciilifeform phf: perhaps worth expanding. imho wasn't problem with the man, but moar with the role per se
16:28 signpost phf: not sure why you're averse to critique of the social experiment though, which is necessary to iterate.
16:28 asciilifeform and, concretely, with the structure.
16:29 signpost mp was certainly *not* the prime source of the thing's failure. thing had insufficient resources. that he could've poured in didn't obligate him to do so.
16:29 signpost and if we weren't rich quick enough, fine to pick up the ball and go home.
16:30 signpost there are elements of failure in him, and everyone else too.
16:31 phf signpost: because there's therapy for that :} walking in the wood, mumbling to yourself "that motherfucker".
16:31 asciilifeform there were elements of 'swimming in moolah dissolves one's brain' present, also, but may be orthogonal to this thrd
16:31 phf signpost: like you just told me to rerail, and in the void was asciilifeform's opportunity to continue the "mp bad" thread, it's still there. that line above ^
16:32 asciilifeform phf: speaking from 'medical' rather than 'moral' pov. imho is problem with class , rather than that 1 d00d in particular.
16:32 signpost phf: recall asciilifeform *had* business with the guy.
16:33 signpost but if he's wrong, give him a good thump with a line quote, say.
16:33 asciilifeform rather extensive , and not all of it in #t
16:33 * asciilifeform just about 'lived with' the fella, for rather long time, to the extent such thing possible via correspondence.
16:33 signpost the thing about being away is that you don't just move your model of phf forward through states, but models of the others too.
16:34 phf signpost: elaborate on that last sentence please
16:34 * asciilifeform got 'so sorry yer best phriend is dead' pile of 'fan mail' from over9000 fuckknowswhoms
16:36 signpost phf: just that we've all done our processing of the thing, but may not know where the other ended up on it.
16:36 * signpost has been through successive business failures, for example, before the one that worked.
16:37 signpost everyone comes away with amplified immune systems which say something about the failure, and something about oneself
16:40 phf then i will repeat myself for the record http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097008 :>
16:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 12:26:37 phf: asciilifeform: i have zero interest in this line of conversation, it smells too much of kakobreka style butthurt. how many ways is there to say "mp bad". this is also reminiscent of the previous horses conversations "riding horses is fun" "but what about all the douchebags??"
16:41 phf i'm not even opposed to "analyzing the structure", but i find the discussion of "how much man drank" both uninteresting, because self evident in some cases and ought to be kept to oneself in other, and also increadibly declasse :>
16:41 * asciilifeform broadly agrees w/ phf's comment re structure -- some folx require a #t-style 'movement' to stay in motion. but must note that that type of structure comes with substantial costs. esp. if the motivatory promises are thin air and the 'great victories' imaginary.
16:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
16:42 asciilifeform phf: very difficult to discuss 'the structure' without mentioning its author.
16:42 asciilifeform 'из песни слова не выкинешь'
16:43 phf asciilifeform: no, actually quite easy, can for example focus on things man did well, without mentioning how he's a fuhrer every few minutes, on the off chance somebody might get the wrong idea that you at any point liked the fellah
16:43 signpost phf: your habit of insisting that whatever you've concluded is evident and frustration that others are, as it appears by the way you communicate, willfully denying what's obvious, is perhaps not the only model of what's happening here.
16:44 signpost heh, and then you said! ok
16:44 asciilifeform fwiw liked him enuff to spend ~7y trying to talk sense into him, lol. but orthogonal.
16:44 signpost sure, I thought he was the greatest man I'd ever encountered, at a certain point, and fully admit.
16:44 signpost and now will swear with the same conviction that allowing any man that is a failure in *myself* first.
16:44 signpost and inviting the other guy to doom.
16:46 * signpost gotta bbl
16:49 phf signpost: there's a russian saying, "of dead you speak well, or not at all" from latin original http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-11#1094990 asciilifeform is certainly familiar with it, so i assume only a strong conviction will allow him to violate it. it still /feels iffy/ to not follow it, or even participate in the instances of its violation. there are rules, people, we live in society! :>
16:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-11 10:59:31 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-10#1094941 << i had a sepsis. as far as mp and best ambulance, de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est
16:50 asciilifeform phf: outta curiosity, historical figures exempt from 'speak well' ?
16:51 asciilifeform let's treat him as historical figure, then
16:51 * asciilifeform not from pov 'grr, motherfucker, haet' but 'fella had serious bugs in his ideological coad'
16:54 asciilifeform picture a 17th c. pirate captain. initially a++ crew, riding on wave of enthusiasm, seal cracks, keep reddi^H^H^H^Hocean outta the boat, over9000 morale. but then instead of pirating, asks crew to please regularly sit on land and day job (or 'find how to get rich').
16:57 phf asciilifeform: i don't agree with this analogy
16:57 asciilifeform or if you prefer, picture an alt- lenin, who thought that his crew oughta 'find how get rich' individually.
16:58 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform fully expects that phf would disagree with any historical analogy offered; because afaik there was no historical parallel for this kinda lunacy. (or if there were, it did not make it even to written record)
16:59 phf asciilifeform: no, i disagree because it's a pointed analogy, that doesn't correspond to what actually happened to the tmsr as a whole, rather then a certain aspect of your relationship with the man
16:59 asciilifeform phf: if you can spare the cycles, let's have your pov re 'as whole' then
17:04 * asciilifeform admits surprise that phf disagrees w/ offered summary, in light of phf having in fact been 1st casualty of the given ideological bug
17:06 asciilifeform what, in phf's pov, sank tmsr ? (which, worth to recall, sank yr+ before mp did)
17:07 asciilifeform ( from asciilifeform's pov -- ~2y )
17:07 asciilifeform if not 3.
17:07 phf asciilifeform: recall, that i stepped down, /before/ i got deplatformed
17:08 asciilifeform phf: didn't stop from 'burned in effigy', lol (tho not with half the enthusiasm asciilifeform was 'burned')
17:10 phf asciilifeform: and? burned in effigy was inevitable outcome of stepping down, that's why nobody else did it explicitly, because knew of fallout
17:10 phf the standard strategy was to just slowly and gradually disappear into the aether
17:11 asciilifeform phf: recall how there was a pair of young fellas (jfw & dorion) who were still there at 'lights out', thought could 'carry whole thing'
17:11 phf or else just run the course, and end up in effigy anyway
17:12 asciilifeform for all asciilifeform knows, they're still walking the globe, showing those powerpoints w/ mp's head and citations
17:15 asciilifeform d00dz bought the snsa boneyard in entirety. and, suspect, will never run out.
17:15 adlai Mircea appears to have been remarkably similar to Wolf Larsen, the first captain and eponymous foil of Jack London's novel, "The Sea-Wolf"; both led their risky enterprises promising great reward, and both met their end in the pacific ocean.
17:15 asciilifeform signed on, if you will, to play role of dks, w/out the pension
17:16 asciilifeform adlai: i've not read 'sea wolf'; did larsen send his crew to land to do scutwork for wages ?
17:17 adlai no, although he almost certainly kills a few insubordinates with his own hands even before they begin mutinies.
17:17 asciilifeform eh, that's 'feature, not bug'
17:17 asciilifeform historically
17:17 adlai it's an interesting novel, and does not spell out each event in explicit detail. some things are left to the reader's imagination.
17:18 adlai contrast with e.g. "Call of the Wild", which focuses mostly on the dog's point of view, although is still technically 3rd person omniscient narration.
17:19 adlai otoh, 'sea wolf' basically gives you one man's first-person perspective, and he starts the novel clueless about pretty much everything other than being a literary gentleman
17:20 adlai so there are detailed descriptions of what he witnesses, yet great holes in the plot where he's not present.
17:21 * asciilifeform not read, cannot comment
17:21 phf asciilifeform: tmsr started as a republic, where eventually one person usurped the power, and in this case the power was given freely and gradually. some elements of "mp's crew" were of course there from the beginning, but i believe i used the phrase "first among equal" sometime early in tmsr days (for some reason i'm failing to find it in the logs, i probably used other form)
17:22 adlai my guess is that Jack London's dog novels are more popular today for the same reason that Aesop didn't get killed for being rude.
17:23 adlai Sea Wolf includes long passages about how the immortal soul is a useless meme, all that matters in life is not sleeping on an empty stomach, etc.
17:23 asciilifeform phf: near as can tell, from the very point where started to use term 'republic', already behaved analogously to caesar's rome, rather than republic's
17:23 phf asciilifeform: your oft repeated "work for wages" is nonsense. the whole idea of lordship implied that we come as equals, being able to provide our own basic necessities, having our own lives squared away.
17:25 phf in my opinion, what actually happened is that when mp started to demanding work (specific following a schedule in your case), and the value of participation started to disappear, is when the whole "buuut i have to do real work" started appearing as an excuse. or if it not an excuse then maybe a cold headed analysis of alegience: at the end of the day it's the day work that was paying for food, etc.
17:25 asciilifeform phf: from asciilifeform's pov, the notion of 'lord' without subordinates and resource base is fundamentally thin wordplay
17:26 phf asciilifeform: yeah, so we were there on false pretence. the only lord was mp, lol
17:26 asciilifeform aha
17:26 asciilifeform demand work ? a-ok, give out some lands & serfs, like peter 1
17:28 phf fwiw i didn't necessarily feel a strong disconnect between my larp title and my life, in that i live off dividents rather than salary. saw it as opportunity and inspiration to /git gut/ as the kids say
17:29 asciilifeform a++. iirc signpost also not needs any longer salary.
17:29 phf which i kind of thought was the point
17:29 adlai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096933 << my main hesitation for this target is that it's a program that interacts with the world, a tool and a service; whereas most other targets I've been considering are closer to the kind of pure functions that are closer to button on calculator than PTT on radio.
17:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 09:53:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-18#1096730 << consider writing a pestron.
17:30 asciilifeform phf: so maybe for you, no such disjunction
17:30 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-11#1094990 ``Down from deaths/corpses nothing, unless good is to be said.''
17:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-11 10:59:31 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-10#1094941 << i had a sepsis. as far as mp and best ambulance, de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est
17:30 verisimilitude I've not yet learned conjugations such as DICENDVM yet.
17:30 asciilifeform iirc at the time of tmsr phf was still working for wage, tho
17:31 asciilifeform adlai: can't comment re which 'pure function' you might like to write. ( asciilifeform dun need any written.. )
17:32 phf asciilifeform: nope, it's been the same project since about the early tmsr days. certainly predates any of my serious tmsr obligations. i still have to work, i mean, in practical terms can probably give away the operations to hired guns, which is what is slowly happening, but i don't particularly feel inclined to
17:33 asciilifeform still a++
17:33 asciilifeform lightyears ahead of e.g. asciilifeform
17:34 asciilifeform iirc e.g. thimbronion in similar weight class to phf's
17:34 adlai asciilifeform: one possibility was implementations of the mathematical concepts I've studied independently in the past year; e.g., it's nice to run my eyes along topology texts, although implementing a predicate that determines equivalence in sufficiently simple cases could demonstrate that I actually learned something.
17:35 asciilifeform adlai: there's nuffin wrong with studying. go, study
17:35 adlai there's plenty wrong with reading and deluding myself that mathematics is a spectator sport.
17:35 adlai if reading for entertainment, fine, excellent.
17:36 asciilifeform so dun spectate. participate.
17:36 * asciilifeform could suggest how, and where, but 0 chance adlai will listen, not clear that he's looking for a marching order
17:37 asciilifeform that's the thing, upstack, asciilifeform aint 'trying to mp', has 0 interest in trying to pressure the apathetic, folx who have a fire still burning in'em req no such pressure
17:38 asciilifeform e.g. jonsykkel . shows up, coupla wks later brings a working pestron.
17:38 asciilifeform no one pressured.
17:38 asciilifeform no one threatened to burn him in effigy, or 'unlord'
17:39 asciilifeform or e.g. cgra. shows up w/ ffa bug. then w/ buncha serious trb works.
17:39 asciilifeform no one ordered him.
17:40 asciilifeform neither even was tuned in, in mp era.
17:40 asciilifeform afaik.
17:40 asciilifeform any cosmography re 'structures' gotta be able to explain how this is possible.
17:40 asciilifeform what kind of structure are the listed folx part of ?
17:41 adlai those folks probably ain't garrulous talkers who sit around yakking about what's in progress!
17:41 asciilifeform is it reddit ? cuz dunthinkso.
17:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:57:43 phf: open sores communiti? :>
17:41 phf asciilifeform: perhaps "any cosmography re 'not reddit' gotta be able to explain why so"
17:42 phf because cat-v 9front people are also 9front, with all kinds of code and output, and such. will produce /excellent 9front/
17:43 * adlai does not subscribe to cosmography where every person is agent of some structure, ranging from 'redditor subscribe to /r/aves etc' to 'nsa provocateur', with nobody who simply lives within modern nation-state and occasionally encounters social media the same way you might encounter a leftover newspaper abandoned on a train bench.
17:43 asciilifeform and local jazz band, perhaps also excellent jazz
17:43 asciilifeform (and i suppose reddit produces 'excellent reddit', whatever that means)
17:43 phf well, right, that's called avocation. can also keep bees
17:44 verisimilitude Well, ``excellent Reddit'' would be whatever they do that allows me to laugh at them.
17:45 asciilifeform asciilifeform aint 'at war' with the catv people. simply regards their work as uninteresting and morose. (and, if they were tuned in, would likely think similarly of asciilifeform's)
17:48 asciilifeform asciilifeform -- believer in freedom of association, amplified by wotronics and assoc. work. it dun have the 'sex appeal' of 'revolutionary movements', no. but imho 'movements' w/out resources are an abjectly masturbatory activity.
17:50 phf asciilifeform: tmsr was not a revolutionary movement. was at the core novel way to structure relationships. or some kind of very old way to structure relationships mediated by novel use of technology.
17:50 asciilifeform phf: from that pov, tmsr is still in-biz, then
17:50 signpost mhm, in the sense that twitter populism is not the same as radio-populism.
17:51 signpost elements of former amplified and mediated in novel ways over the tech.
17:52 asciilifeform ditching populism fwiw was not a unique invention of mp's. asciilifeform never took in at all.
17:52 adlai signpost: what do you mean by 'radio-populism' ?
17:52 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096416 << was making reference to this.
17:52 * asciilifeform for that matter, regarded the canwhores & assoc. idiocy very dimly
17:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 19:07:10 phf: i mean covid, IMHO, was a first case of global mass psychosis mediated by a new form of a reality substrate
17:52 phf signpost: i think giving something a broad label like that strips it of its essential qualities. anything and everything can be a revolutionary movement, basically means nothing
17:53 signpost missing my point; I'm commenting on the medium being essential to the culture that forms on it.
17:53 signpost and I picked a triggering category to illustrate it intentionally.
17:54 signpost adlai: hitler making a speech and projecting it via tv/radio/etc, for example.
17:54 signpost or "fireside addresses" by... fdr I believe.
17:56 adlai so preacher-at-congregation, as opposed to the various forms of democracy theatre so popular these days.
17:58 signpost to give the non-triggering example, the ancients and their culture of literacy. the technology puts limits on who can say what back, where this is heard, by whom shall it be heard...
17:59 signpost *meant to say literature, of letters
17:59 asciilifeform signpost: or, consider, similarly, 1990s usenet
17:59 signpost mhm
17:59 asciilifeform at one time there was an accidental iq filter in place.
18:00 asciilifeform broke, when predators noticed it was there to break, as had no mechanisms to resist.
18:00 * signpost considered tmsr a project to intentionally design such a system of rules. who can speak when, to whom, how is what's true known.
18:00 signpost one could say "it was a culture" but it's not clear "culture" macroexpands in this manner in everyone's interpreter.
18:01 signpost or if I said "intentional community" those would be the right words and laughably wrong context.
18:01 asciilifeform phf upstack in 'no head' stopped short of noting that asciilifeform presently 'plays role of ayatollah, badly' but would've been fair crit.
18:02 signpost isn't even a crit; it's factual that the context of your work is what ideological anchor is currently present.
18:02 asciilifeform from asciilifeform's pov, continuing exactly what was doing in #t .
18:02 asciilifeform with smaller, moar sober crew
18:04 asciilifeform for whom insufficient ayatollah -- 'how's all this diff. from reddit?!1' -- there's a broad selection of alternative ayatollahs avail., the net is wide
18:06 phf asciilifeform: no disrespect to the lord of this castle, and while in his domain, but as your former equal, i can extend the gratitude over your hospitality, but my here presence does not in itself imply fielty
18:07 phf to wit i come as a guest, not as supplicant
18:07 asciilifeform phf is a welcome guest
18:07 asciilifeform asciilifeform not expects 'fealty' from phf or for that matter others.
18:08 phf and we are discussing what tmsr were, to establish whether or not it still is, or even can be
18:09 adlai fwiw, I do not view asciilifeform as ayatollah, nor as someone building ... neither replacement or continuation of MP's "TMSR" group hallucination.
18:09 asciilifeform asciilifeform moar into kuklachev's supposed method for training cats. 'find trick the cat eagerly desires to perform'
18:09 signpost my point was that the work was authorship of ideology first, the rest upon it.
18:09 signpost not that I consider asciilifeform god-fuhrer who ascended to daddy's chair.
18:09 * asciilifeform not interested, as noted, in fuhrering, in general
18:10 * signpost even farted out a few ideological items recently.
18:10 verisimilitude I currently respect asciilifeform as my better in programming matters, but respect and obedience are different.
18:11 adlai superorganisms are not required to self-identify using some proper noun; what's wrong with simply saying, e.g., "the pest spec is a shared product of folks who gave feedback to asciilifeform in the IRC server run for that purpose, among others"
18:11 adlai rather than "TMSR Company Makes Everything"
18:12 verisimilitude Usually, the people in a company are paid.
18:12 * asciilifeform makes no seekrit of his ideological positions, historical cosmography, etc. but not offers 'plug-in replacement' for mp's
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 13:46:56 asciilifeform: asciilifeform -- believer in freedom of association, amplified by wotronics and assoc. work. it dun have the 'sex appeal' of 'revolutionary movements', no. but imho 'movements' w/out resources are an abjectly masturbatory activity.
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-11 13:49:28 asciilifeform: post-medieval 'merchant' nobility was sustainable only in context of expanding resource base. in shrinking/stagnant resource base, the old (hereditary nobility, serfs, etc) system is the stable one. so currently reich activity all with aim to reorg into the latter.
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-15 12:41:06 asciilifeform: mangol: atm there aint a 'free world'. but at one time there were, and lizards existentially terrified that could again be.
18:12 signpost adlai: I disagree entirely, for the same reason we name meatsacks.
18:12 signpost to have what upon which to aggregate something coherent.
18:12 verisimilitude This seems like an egregore.
18:12 * signpost also agrees that whatever's present, this is premature.
18:13 adlai verisimilitude: the counterexample is specifically a parody of the acronym "ACME", an embodiment of 20th- (late 19th?) century nationalism.
18:13 signpost there were prereqs not in place then, that are still not now. pest's part of it.
18:13 * signpost has a few mil company store credits to not fuck up in the next few years, and probably another tinycorp to fart out.
18:14 verisimilitude Every slot in which I can fit an egregore is already filled.
18:14 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform believes that if tonight he is flattened by piano, the party will go on in recognizably similar spirit on pestnet, won't 'devolve to reddit'
18:14 signpost few mil ain't shit these days.
18:14 adlai signpost: I guess I'm much more hesitant to name superorganisms that do not claim sovereignty; and the most notable lasting effect of MP's writings on my worldview is placing the sovereignty of individuals as fundamental ,and the sovereignty of nations and their ilk as only incidental.
18:15 verisimilitude Many of us are here as outcasts of modern Internet society, or at least I'm, asciilifeform.
18:15 asciilifeform adlai: from asciilifeform's pov, 'sovereignty to individual' requires tooling, to make even thinkable escape from mass broadcast idiocy and post-'september' net
18:15 phf adlai: that's reach coming from an israeli
18:15 phf *rich
18:16 asciilifeform phf: iirc he was marooned there, rather than moved ideologically
18:16 * asciilifeform narrowly escaped this fate
18:17 adlai yep; arguably, I am lazy, and/or cowardly, for not defecting to MP's proverbial "wherever the stripper you met yesterday wants to go for vacation"
18:18 verisimilitude He truly advocated that?
18:18 adlai however, I am definitely not proud of e.g. owing social security payments to Israel's equivalent organisation (here it's called "national insurance")
18:19 adlai nor would I be any prouder if I were, as some have told me to be, receiving disability payments from the same organisation; for what exactly? sadness? drunkenness?
18:19 asciilifeform verisimilitude: aint an unfair summery imho of what he advocated. tho moar concretely, 'be young, be disposable, follow sex organs always, live on next to nuffin'
18:20 asciilifeform idolized decerebrated criminal class, for 'being active rather than passive', in a rather early 20th-reminiscent deeply intellectual antiintellectualism
18:20 asciilifeform *summary
18:21 adlai verisimilitude: iirc, this approximate quote is from his wealth preservation plan, that consisted roughly of: 1) buy as many bitcoins as possible, immediately; 2) decide whether to keep your wife, and either way, get your kids in line; 3) move to least shitty non-NATO paradise of your choosing
18:21 asciilifeform ( see also, e.g. 'pencildicks'(tm) )
18:22 asciilifeform adlai: was 'max out credit card, buy btc, run to paraguay' etc
18:23 adlai phf: my point is, that people claimed personal sovereignty, personal divinity, etc, for millenia, before anyone began depersonalising themselves as mouth of sauron, speaker for house, etc
18:25 verisimilitude He reminds me of my grandfather, then, asciilifeform.
18:25 asciilifeform ( for extra lulz, if anyone recalls, asciilifeform invented a machine which carries out 'plan for wealth' w/out leaving house -- connect rng to perl script bruteforce of shitoshi's privkeys, and pistol if wrong answer, aimed at yer head. has similar chance of 'working', but mp did not like, not 'manly' flavoured )
18:25 adlai I'm guessing your dig at Israel is due to its human rights violations; I'm not gonna deny those, and honestly if my turn ever gets called to go on trial for war crimes because I served in the military during the occupation of the west bank, I'm not admitting guilt to any war crimes. I was fortunate to never be in a situation where this was even possible.
18:25 verisimilitude That seems like exactly the kind of plan that would have one end up drowned, adlai.
18:27 phf adlai: i generally stand with civilization
18:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik no one (admitted to) literally carrying out that 'plan'.
18:27 verisimilitude I refer to ``listen to your dick'' talk.
18:27 verisimilitude My grandfather was the same way.
18:29 adlai phf: tbh I dunno how familiar you are with the modern state of Israel; it cushions a remarkably 1st-world, 'enlightened', cusp of civilisation, surrounded by the various apartheid geopolitical mess.
18:30 phf adlai: that is correct :) now reread what i said from the perspective of us agreen that israel is civilization
18:30 phf *agreeing
18:31 verisimilitude That seems like a description of what South Africa was, adlai.
18:31 asciilifeform from asciilifeform's pov, the major problem in il is the 'soft gloves' and hijacking by reich prestige apparatus. if went 'gloves off' could readily civilize entire near east, east india style
18:31 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-06-12 asciilifeform: ^ 'altalena affair' resulted in the switcheroo where the upstanding folx ( irgun et al, who held the position 'rm -rf britain' , were replaced by the internationalkomyooniti obedient muppet circus who ended up 'recognized' by said komyooniti as 'israel'
18:32 phf adlai: the dig was mostly at the fact that israelis tend to be very nationalistic in public, but sit down with an ashkenazi and you'll always have this "fireside chats" kind of vague pluralistic opinions. "well, we're /all/ made of stardust, my friend"
18:33 adlai ok, I completely misread your perspective. I still don't see why considering personal sovereignty as the fundamental value is contrary to the sovereignty claims of certain superorganisms; simply, they must be structured to protect individuals; whether you call this principle 'human rights', 'not treading on liberties', or something similar, is mostly semantics.
18:34 verisimilitude That almost seems like a description of pilpul, phf.
18:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: literally
18:34 verisimilitude Yes.
18:34 adlai yeah there's definitely strong indoctrination that regardless of your personal opinions, when you face outwards and there is no e.g. consulate at yoru back, then you are the foreign mission.
18:35 adlai this was one of the things taught in basic training; "whenever you wear the uniform, you represent your unit, and you represent the military; whenever you travel, you represent Israel;" etc
18:36 asciilifeform adlai: well we had e.g. 'И один в поле воин, если он по-русски скроен', similar
18:36 * adlai must have been vaccinated against this kind of national-pride-by-default from young age
18:37 adlai please interpret, for the linguistically and lexically challenged folks?
18:38 * adlai e.g. still connects from IRC program that turns anything with 8th bit set into a question mark
18:38 asciilifeform adlai: riff on older proberb 'one man in the field is no warrior'. 'even one is a warrior, if he is made of our stuff'
18:38 phf adlai: it was not a political statement, it was a joke about the jew. "my friend, but we all stand alone in the face of god, for reb such and such said.. ... what? at the border? woman where's my tavor!"
18:40 asciilifeform 'all men are brothers, but let the warhead fall on others'(tm)
18:44 verisimilitude ``All men are physico-chemically equal.''
18:46 asciilifeform to revisit upstack thread, before it is lost in digression : what asciilifeform , in the 'if wishes were horses' sense, would ideally be up to, is running a 'Klein type-1 organization'. but impossible w/ avail. resources. so , experimenting with what is possible.
18:48 * asciilifeform fwiw does not believe that such thing possible in context of current reich , and all claims to the contrary -- believes to be cynically fraudulent
18:49 asciilifeform (hence, no, not aboutta treat folx who volunteered scarce cycles as 'subordinate', or ask 'fealty', or promise anyffin at all re great victories.)
18:51 asciilifeform ( if e.g. tbf piggy suddenly amts to sumthing other than dryer lint, could rethink selected aspects of this, but otherwise is as it is )
18:51 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-11 15:39:49 asciilifeform: for reference, piggy, seen through a heathen blockexploder .
18:51 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-18 11:28:20 asciilifeform: ... problem is, is very difficult to increase the amt of useful work with coin (aside from, hypothetically, jailbreaking ~people~, ideally 2-3 people. but piggy -- or 'sandwich-adjusted' exchrate -- would have to be ~10x bigger to make this plausible)
18:52 adlai asciilifeform: what's the rationale for the reserved field in section 3.3.1.4 ?
18:53 asciilifeform adlai: word alignment.
18:53 asciilifeform ( and potential expansion of 'command' upward )
18:53 asciilifeform can picture wanting >256 commands.
~ 15 minutes ~
19:09 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097239 << i think there's a lot more to upstack than this, personally i think it's worthwhile to thoroughly explore it, but doesn't need to be one long thread.
19:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 14:45:22 asciilifeform: to revisit upstack thread, before it is lost in digression : what asciilifeform , in the 'if wishes were horses' sense, would ideally be up to, is running a 'Klein type-1 organization'. but impossible w/ avail. resources. so , experimenting with what is possible.
19:09 asciilifeform phf: imho worth
19:09 * asciilifeform must bbl, but promises to answer later
19:13 adlai why is there a prohibition on console output in section 3.3.1.6.8 , instead of the allowance to collect statistics similar to the final paragraph of 3.3.2 ?
19:13 * adlai imagines e.g. hourly report, "dropped five gigabytes of martian liquishit, tolerated three megabytes of peered garbage"
19:15 phf asciilifeform: nor do i think the upstack will get lost, at least not by my doing, because without resolving it, /i/ don't really see any reason to do anything. why would i need peh to chat to you guys about good old days, can do it here fine
19:15 adlai obviously much more detailed in cases where the primary challenge is evasion of countermeasures
~ 45 minutes ~
20:00 asciilifeform phf: could take it further, and , e.g. 'why chat w/ buncha numbskulls on irc, could even better at the pub'. there is no possible counterargument.
20:01 asciilifeform either one's interested in decentralization toolsmithing , or one aint, and who aint will likely very easily find moar interesting place to be elsewhere
20:03 asciilifeform ( aand fwiw the 'good o' days' thread (not that asciilifeform has anyffin against occasional such thrd) was kicked off by phf )
20:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:28:49 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about b
20:05 signpost why is nontrivial, and for most that have why, it's an heirloom.
20:05 * asciilifeform presumed, when phf delurked, that he found some aspect of what was taking place in #a interesting and worth dirtying hands into; but could be mistaken
20:05 signpost I think you're taking the comment in the wrong direction.
20:05 asciilifeform hm?
20:06 signpost the synthesis of no-external-deps "why" was the tmsr project, as I believe I hear phf indicating.
20:07 signpost from which, tech, attitude towards the empire, other consequences.
20:07 signpost the question of from-what "why" is interesting, and not solvable quickly.
20:07 signpost hell, that's the fucking project of all history.
20:08 asciilifeform signpost: 'no deps' aint the beginning nor end of the story, or we'd install dr-dos and live happilyeverafter
20:08 cdd http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096938 << no longer interested in "re-inventing wheel" but content w/ "turd polishing"
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:28:49 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096884 << no, and i won't without a sufficient reason. if it wasn't obvious the confluence of "anyone can write a logotron" and "fuck you phf give use your code" of the mid/late tmsr made me reconsider. the model proposed by the republic was explicitly not open-source, that is it wasn't just about releasing the code for the sake of releasing it, it was about b
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:09:31 cdd: I'd be interested in an advanced search. It's bothering me that I can't search "all posts by mircea_popescu in between x and y addressed to asciilifeform containing 'logotron'"
20:08 cdd I respect whatever you wanna do with your secret sauce.
20:09 cdd wrong << http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096941
20:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 11:37:22 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096888 << just write it then? a lowest end of effort that's less than 3 hours of work time. log format is standard, i don't know what asciilifeform is dumping it as, but back in my day i made sure it was kako's id;timestamp;nick;message. less than an hour of work to load it into sqlite, then your hypothetical query becomes a trivial sql statement
20:10 asciilifeform can't guarantee that interpreted correctly, but phf's fundamental q appears to be 'why should i tune into #a, rather than go and moar rifle practice'. to which asciilifeform will not offer an answer, as believes 'if you gotta ask...'(tm)
20:10 adlai !!gettrust cdd
20:10 deedbot L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
20:10 adlai ah. welcome back!
20:10 crtdaydreams bleh
20:10 phf asciilifeform: you puff up as fast as you deflate.
20:11 phf or i guess the other way around :>
20:11 asciilifeform on the contrary, neither inflated nor deflated
20:11 asciilifeform still precisely same volume as start.
20:11 * crtdaydreams pictures one of those `tube men' outside car dealerships
20:12 adlai crtdaydreams: you've seen that the log database can be downloaded? obviously not as convenient as using the search box in the web interface, yet it does let you make arbitrary queries locally.
20:12 * asciilifeform simply must admit that it aint a q to which asciilifeform prepares answers, or thinks requires external answer
20:12 asciilifeform e.g. jonsykkel , cgra , et al -- found answer .
20:12 phf cool, good for them
20:13 crtdaydreams adlai: yes, haven't downloaded it and not willing to gamble on size. restricted 'net d/u data
20:13 crtdaydreams but specifically dunno what i'd do with it?
20:13 crtdaydreams write direct SQL queries???
20:14 phf crtdaydreams: what's wrong with that?
20:14 crtdaydreams phf: size or sql?
20:14 phf sql
20:15 adlai if regular SQL causes you nausea, you could massage it into various other formats; and/or build some index for the kind of queries you'd find relevant
20:15 phf crtdaydreams: there's some major disconnect here. how are you going to work on a much more demanding system, if you can't seem to environment a significantly lesser investment
20:15 * adlai has never seen 'environment' used as a verb!
20:15 asciilifeform ftr the gz'd db is ~85M currently.
20:16 crtdaydreams eh, nothing. just would be nice to go (db-query :daterange 02-11-2015 04-11-2015)
20:16 asciilifeform unless yer on a 486, nuffing heavy about it
20:16 crtdaydreams eh, nothing. just would be nice to go (db-query :daterange '("02-11-2015" "04-11-2015"))
20:16 crtdaydreams eck
20:16 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: so, go, glue e.g. 'postmodern' on it, and query away
20:17 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: postmodern?
20:17 adlai crtdaydreams: I probably missed your self-introduction, if there were one; you have CL experience?
20:17 asciilifeform https://quickref.common-lisp.net/postmodern.html
20:17 verisimilitude I don't know SQL either, phf, and I don't consider this a loss for me.
20:17 crtdaydreams adlai: newb.
20:17 adlai gave you benefit of doubt, 'noob' rating could have only been new-to-here.
20:18 * asciilifeform also 'not knows' sql, picked up just enuff to make phuctor & logotron, in the process of writing
20:18 verisimilitude SQL is ugly.
20:18 adlai fwiw, "new blood" was standard rating text back in the old glorious lordship days.
20:18 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what part of all of it aint ugly, lol
20:18 asciilifeform whole stack is made of 100% pure weapons-grade ug
20:18 verisimilitude Why, the things I've made aren't ugly, of course.
20:19 verisimilitude I'm joking.
20:19 asciilifeform narcissism is worse for yer health than smoking, verisimilitude
20:19 adlai verisimilitude: lol, the most recent code sample of yours that we discussed includes a comment where you say... ah yes. ok, you do joke occasionally!
20:19 verisimilitude At least it's more fun.
20:20 adlai this particular joke was far from obvious because you are often quite snobby.
20:20 verisimilitude That's why it came with a tag.
20:20 verisimilitude Some of what I write isn't ugly, at least not in principle.
20:20 crtdaydreams Ideally would have parser on frontend for from; mircea_popescu to; asciilifeform range; 02-11-2015:04-11-2015 ; "language" "fuck" example
20:21 adlai much common lisp code is quite ugly, and I actually like parentheses.
20:21 crtdaydreams parser returns s-exp query to db
20:21 * asciilifeform hopes to one day write sumthing 'not ugly', but if & when happens, will be for ~others~ to decide
20:21 adlai crtdaydreams: holy hell bro; semicolons don't work that way!
20:21 crtdaydreams adlai: shuhs
20:21 crtdaydreams shsh
20:22 adlai how about "from: m_p; to: alf; ..."
20:22 crtdaydreams just example of synatx
20:22 crtdaydreams s/synatx/syntax/
20:22 asciilifeform adlai: the original offers no hard encoding for 'to'
20:22 crtdaydreams adlai: problem was range: ...
20:22 adlai sure you can redefine anything, but please keep some semblance of 'principle of least surprise'
20:22 crtdaydreams adlai: will keep to s-exp :)
20:22 verisimilitude I'm carrying around my pretty things, with the expectation I may one day set them in their final places, and not in shit.
20:23 adlai asciilifeform: there are multiple conventions; for years I used an IRC client that placed a comma after tab-completing a nick at the start of the line, and I still do that when typing without tab completion.
20:24 * adlai forgets what client that was; may have simply been different configuration for this one.
20:24 asciilifeform there's various conventions, and there's what's actually in the schema. the latter -- strictly time,chan,speaker,text.
20:24 adlai isn't this impossible to encode into the schema?
20:24 adlai for example, I am addressing you, yet your name does not appear in this line.
20:24 adlai AI-complete problem!!!
20:24 verisimilitude It's easier to see beauty in something when one be mere user.
20:24 asciilifeform adlai: can encode colour of hair if you like. addressing what's actually in the historical data.
20:25 asciilifeform ( vs what yer stuck inferring, lossily , if insist )
20:25 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: re postmodern: am more familiar with (ql:quickload 'sqlite)
20:25 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: so -- flag into yer hands ! go , write
20:25 verisimilitude I'm working on ``solving'' a little game, giving most thought when sleeping, and my solution will certainly be pretty, not ugly.
20:26 adlai tbh, log search is much more useful, in my experience, when you know what you're seeking and only wish to provide others with a link to the previous conversation, and possibly refresh your own memory of the exact quotes.
20:26 verisimilitude Oh, I do have some examples of things I've written which aren't ugly, my machine code.
20:26 asciilifeform adlai: imho is unlikely to be useful in any other context, no matter what knobs bolted on
20:26 phf adlai: i dunno can also play log roulette, search for e.g. "whore" or "god" or whatever
20:27 asciilifeform ... or hit 'random'
20:27 adlai I never found it much good for "I wonder whether TMSR has precedent and verdict about XYZ"; occasionally (e.g. when I searched for 'urbit') there is an easy hit, and occasionally, neologisms make the search hopeless.
20:27 asciilifeform (bottom of pg)
20:27 verisimilitude Machine code is so easily made so pretty, in ways current high-level languages fail.
20:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: normally the machine per se is uggly enuff that nothing 'pretty' about the asm proggy
20:28 verisimilitude I didn't mention it earlier, adlai, but I'll actually be pleased with the Roman numerals program when I write a machine code version.
20:28 adlai don't you mostly write machine code for more parsimonious instruction sets than the variable width horrors of modernity?
20:28 verisimilitude Yes, but just ignore that.
20:29 asciilifeform ( perhaps interestingly, attempts to solve nontrivial problems on 'parsimonius' pseudo-machine instr sets even ~more~ ugly invariably. 'the scheme disease' )
20:29 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096890 << the little arrows that appear next to log entries that are later referenced elsewhere, e.g. this is the top most referenced entry, at some point in history http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-04#700916
20:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:14:15 cdd: also, wdym by 'backlinkage?'
20:29 verisimilitude Put that cat back in the bag this instant, adlai.
20:30 adlai fwiw, there is a modern hebrew proverb - "selling a bagged cat", which I find quite amusing
20:31 asciilifeform adlai: most of europe has same proverb. and would bet that asia too
20:31 adlai idiomatically it means that the buyer has no idea what they are getting, they only see the outside of the sack
20:31 adlai yet... have you ever tried putting a cat inside a sack, without the fact of a cat's presence in the sack being painfully evident?
20:31 verisimilitude So, this Hebrew proverb describes computer purchases.
20:31 asciilifeform ( tho the english variant, 'pig in poke', does not reference the cat directly; but iirc the 'pig' often turned out to be cat )
20:32 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096891 << i've tried that, i found the result to be unsatisfying. of course you're not rigging emacs, you have a custom "load" in your lisp, that keeps track of state, etc.
20:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 04:23:16 cdd: also, wondering if anyone has rigged vpatch for emacs to live-patch a repl?
20:32 verisimilitude Anyway, yes, I just ignore the ugly machines.
20:32 verisimilitude The least ugly physical machine of mine is MIPS of all things.
20:32 asciilifeform verisimilitude: also ignore nontrivial problems that'd give over9000 complexity on 'beautiful' machine if attempted, tho
20:33 verisimilitude No, asciilifeform, I get to have the challenge of doing it anyway.
20:33 verisimilitude There are methods for this.
20:34 verisimilitude It just requires far more thought than most will ever care to give.
20:34 adlai complexity in and of itself doesn't need to be ugly
20:36 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097373 << specifically the approach was to have a vpatch state in the lisp: the entire source tree up to the current point. when you load a vpatch, the system first checks if the patch can be pressed against the in-memory tree, then the vpatch is pressed, noting of the top level forms that have been updated, the top level forms are then evaluated. can simply skip bits that are the
20:36 phf same. it worked /ok/, but for a single user project this kind of mgmt overhead was needless.
20:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 16:30:47 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1096891 << i've tried that, i found the result to be unsatisfying. of course you're not rigging emacs, you have a custom "load" in your lisp, that keeps track of state, etc.
20:37 adlai for example, much mathematics is quite elegant, despite having much complexity if you express it using any notation other than the most concise
20:37 asciilifeform would even work if 'shelled out' and pressed the usual way, on disk
20:38 adlai phf: you had files stored as strings per line, in the memory of a lisp image?
20:38 asciilifeform adlai: back when 'mathematics was still happening', its practitioners spent sometimes entire lives on fighting complexity, rather than 'multiplying entities'
20:38 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
20:38 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-31 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
20:39 asciilifeform ditto physics
20:39 * adlai was thinking more along the lines of e.g. dirac equation, which can be written as approximately half a dozen symbols if you go to the extreme
20:39 phf asciilifeform: not quite the same policy though. you're pressing not against a tree or a particular press. you're pressing against what the lisp thinks its press is. can e.g. upload a patch, and have it rejected because the state is not what it's supposed to be. can also press a sequence of patches /from the point of state of the lisp/. otherwise you have to keep canonical tree around, making sure that it's not accidentally clobberedg.
20:40 asciilifeform phf: right, if need 'intelligently, per state of lisp' then much tricker problem.
20:40 asciilifeform over9000 harder.
20:40 phf adlai: yes, but i was simply reusing what /patches already knew how to do
20:41 phf adlai: e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch21a_ter_ch14_ch20_errata.kv/tree/ is from in-memory everything
20:42 asciilifeform btw phf , possib. bug in there
20:42 bitbot (pest) 2022-04-19 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/9978-bugfixes/tree/blatta/lib/station.py << lol 404 ( hey phf ?? )
20:43 * adlai meanwhile has improved understanding of pest spec; writing peer seems like a reasonable target, although at the complex end of the range.
20:44 phf asciilifeform: yeah, there's some problems with the press. i've never fixed it because graph theory makes my head hurt
20:44 adlai enough chitchat for me for one evening; goodnight folks
20:44 asciilifeform adlai: if you can think of ways to make w/ fewer moving parts, i'm all ears
20:44 asciilifeform adlai: 'nighty
20:44 asciilifeform phf: afaik thimbronion's blatta is entirely linear, patchwise, tho
20:45 asciilifeform ( and correctly displayed as such in phf's tool )
20:47 phf asciilifeform: yes, but not everything is, so entirely possible to get into wrong state with linear press, if you're trying to accomodate some other kind of non-linear press. i think i have a handful of different press functions, none of them particularly satisfying
20:48 * asciilifeform not having seen phf's algo, unfortunately cannot comment further. asciilifeform's orig. algo also had well-known limitations
20:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097253 << 'ignore' ? cuz nobody wants GBs of liquishit pumped to his console, lolwtf
20:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 15:11:48 adlai: why is there a prohibition on console output in section 3.3.1.6.8 , instead of the allowance to collect statistics similar to the final paragraph of 3.3.2 ?
20:57 asciilifeform ( see also )
20:57 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-11 asciilifeform: '...for your convenience we have packaged the defective 8% of transistors you asked for, separately!' (tm) (r)
20:57 phf well, to date nobody has produced a working algorithm. i think maybe diana coman has, but i also think she might've changed the requirements sufficiently, since she had a mandate for blank slate, to eliminate the problem altogether
20:58 asciilifeform phf: depends what means 'working'. is topologically same problem as e.g. refcounting gc. so if you must permit cycles, can use 'tortoise & hare' algo.
20:58 asciilifeform imho is braindamaged to permit cycles, or treat them in any way other than to ring fire alarm.
20:58 asciilifeform ( which the original -- does )
20:59 * asciilifeform in fact content, then as nao, to define any vtree which the orig. algo won't press simply as invalid.
20:59 phf asciilifeform: working means can produce a press without choking.
20:59 asciilifeform and the job of the author to find why and fix
21:00 asciilifeform phf: i dun recall any instances of v.py botching a press of anything that wasn't afflicted by 'coarse error of pilotage' of author, to date
21:00 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-03-11#1430441 I'm remembering what he did to the chicken.
21:00 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-11 mircea_popescu: even without shoehorning "hitler" in here, the only sane way reproduction works is that i have life and death power over any offspring until they go on their own.
21:02 * asciilifeform to this day uses exclusively v.py , and 0 headaches w/ pressing in recent yrs on any occasion
21:03 phf asciilifeform: you can't possibly go from "algorithm had known problems" to "to date there's not been a single problem"
21:03 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2014-02-16#509010 This is a good joke.
21:03 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-02-16 asciilifeform: they pass an old man who says, 'don't drown this fellow. i'll feed him dumplings, he won't have to do any work but to dip them'
21:04 asciilifeform phf: the 'problem', such as it is, is poor barfology on ill-formed inputs.
21:04 asciilifeform makes tricky to find wtf author fucked
21:04 asciilifeform but well-formed inputs 100% press correctly. trb, ffa, blatta, logotron, etc.
21:05 phf asciilifeform: i can't even
21:05 verisimilitude It's valid, but can be unsatisfying, to define correct operation like this.
21:05 asciilifeform can't even what, phf ? they press correctly.
21:05 verisimilitude Ideally, a program handles everything which be thrown at it.
21:05 asciilifeform dun take asciilifeform's word for it, can try w/ own hands
21:05 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ideally many things
21:06 verisimilitude It's a clear domain, phf, just one that may need testing for validity; it's a precondition failure.
21:07 asciilifeform imho would be a++ to make a v.py that gives moar detailed failure analysis. asciilifeform would read, sign, such patch. but this wasn't what anyone to date wanted to do, erryone wants to bake own from 0, as folx typically do
21:07 asciilifeform (and most of the time introduce ~new~ breakage, lol, while doing so)
21:07 verisimilitude As do I.
21:09 asciilifeform ill-formed v inputs come in 3 equiv. classes -- ill-syntaxed (i.e. can't parse, or one of a pair of patch, or its sig -- missing) ; ill-connected ( topological 'islands' on graph ) ; cyclical ( i.e. commits what is prohibited in chess, a return to previous state of game board ) .
21:10 asciilifeform asciilifeform's orig. vtron did not ( still does not ) 'gracefully' handle the last 2 classes.
21:10 asciilifeform but on all well-formed ( i.e. no 'islands', no 'cycles' ) trees -- worx 'as printed on the tin'.
21:10 asciilifeform ( anyone who witnessed otherwise -- plox to write in. )
21:18 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097269 << I was using software as a metaphor here for authorship of a from-first-principles structure of meaning.
21:18 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 16:06:45 asciilifeform: signpost: 'no deps' aint the beginning nor end of the story, or we'd install dr-dos and live happilyeverafter
21:20 signpost "great artists steal" applies here; "nothing above us and the whole world below" I believe the declaration read.
21:20 asciilifeform signpost: in that case yes; tho we're very far, technologically, from this
21:21 signpost 100% agree.
21:31 * asciilifeform arrived at 'need machine where iron schematic and complete os stack fit in paperback book, or fucking die trying' in '06. then in '07 www.
21:33 asciilifeform complexity demolition is the ultimate 'intelligence amplification'.
21:34 signpost mhm, one of those tidy ethical questions where "if you value anything *at all*, necessarily also must value this"
21:34 phf asciilifeform: so in other words, reading the rest of the thread, tmsr was your venue to realize this objective, nothing more? klein type-1 org elsewhere, etcx.
21:34 asciilifeform ( for so long as done correctly, and 'the earth properly salted' so it cannot grow back )
21:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 16:28:25 asciilifeform: ( perhaps interestingly, attempts to solve nontrivial problems on 'parsimonius' pseudo-machine instr sets even ~more~ ugly invariably. 'the scheme disease' )
21:35 asciilifeform phf: not only.
21:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
21:35 signpost "to live in civilization" is the shortest rendering I have.
21:36 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform also interested in de-elitizing technology.
21:37 asciilifeform for which was willing to work, for rather long time, with a fella who caricaturedly embodied nearly errything asciilifeform opposes.
21:41 phf asciilifeform: oh i didn't realize you were a passive subject in the shaping of tmsr, toiling under an abusive leader, sustained only by the vision of the glorious computing future
21:41 asciilifeform phf: you decide whether 'passive subject' or in fact baked good % of the programme.
21:42 asciilifeform who is asciilifeform to decide.
21:46 signpost this notion of prohibition of speaking ill of the dead is a pointless obstacle in the thread.
21:47 signpost asciilifeform and mp argued *at length*; the idea that there's some ideological turn here, I don't see it.
21:47 asciilifeform signpost: it's a ru proverb, but not prev. aware of anyone taking it seriously as a universal principle
21:47 signpost for that matter, one can find me bitching directly at mp while he lived that we needed to go hustle, or die.
21:48 signpost I don't think anyone that was there was a mindless follower of him, nor that he was the sole author of the little machine.
21:49 phf signpost: you'll have to clarify what you're talking about, because i can't map it to anything i said
21:49 * asciilifeform recalls kilometres of log where laboured to convince him that yes, reich is an organized entity, yes, organized subversion of software, of cryptography, of bitcoin, etc
21:50 signpost phf: I take you to be driving for admission of a shared ideology at the time, which you consider there to have been some turning against.
21:50 asciilifeform in fact precedes asciilifeform's invitation to #ba. init. was correspondence elsewhere
21:50 signpost I could be wrong, and say so to be corrected if so.
21:51 phf signpost: no, i'm mocking asciilifeform's pierrot pose
21:51 asciilifeform phf: where pose ?
21:53 phf asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097459
21:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 17:36:17 asciilifeform: for which was willing to work, for rather long time, with a fella who caricaturedly embodied nearly errything asciilifeform opposes.
21:54 asciilifeform was, funnily enuff, a gargantuan amt of work, to bake for mp a consistent (in aspects not revolving around cock, lol) ideology. much harder than writing various proggies.
21:56 asciilifeform ( imho what fella started with was just about limited to erudite defense of his own pyramid scheme against competing ones. )
21:57 asciilifeform who, if anyone, 'ate' whom ? will leave to log readers.
21:59 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform's brother once remarked 'you killed him, like you killed gabe laddel' )
22:00 signpost lol
22:00 * asciilifeform refuses to take responsibility for these 'kills'. folx walk into his workshop, all jars & power tools clearly labeled.
22:00 signpost killed himself by offending the gods with thoughts the universe itself destroys when they arise.
22:01 signpost life could not exist otherwise.
22:01 verisimilitude So asciilifeform is cursed.
22:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: newz at 11, lol
22:02 verisimilitude Don't add me to the kill count if I die first.
22:02 asciilifeform verisimilitude: wasn't asciilifeform's pov, lol. but thought oughta mention.
22:02 signpost for my part, the poison pill of the declaration was exactly the part I quoted.
22:02 signpost reality above, always.
22:08 * asciilifeform offers tools, mechanical ~and~ ideological, to folx, who sometimes yes, after failing to make'em work on their cave firmware, succumb to vodka. imho is b/w them and odin
22:09 * asciilifeform ... cannot reinstall their firmware, that problem is 'beyond his pay grade.'
22:10 * asciilifeform must bbl
22:13 phf huh, alright then
22:17 phf https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=I_Invented_Burrell.txt
22:18 phf "why, why, why, i invented mp!"
22:24 verisimilitude What was invented has been uninvented.
22:26 * signpost hears on one end "thief will not have my work etched into his headstone" and on the other end, hell, are you going to eventually say, phf?
22:26 verisimilitude I think my favourite story from there is the one concerning negative lines.
22:26 signpost sounds like an echo of "no republic without mp" but I'm not going to keep trying to infer.
22:27 phf signpost: why, neither
22:29 phf signpost: i listened to what asciilifeform had to say on subjects, came to my own conclusions. it's definitely not "no republic without mp", because conversation started with "remember how awesome things were before mp usurped power"
22:29 signpost this is all why the solution to starting a culture is usually, "I SAY. THERE, IT'S DONE."
22:29 signpost it stops a certain process.
22:30 signpost mp unquestionably did that. and wrote much else of value.
22:30 phf signpost: wait, it sounds like /you're/ saying no republic without mp :D
22:31 signpost the process it stops is men each clinging to incompatible hills upon which to die.
22:31 signpost yep
22:31 phf and just at that moment the student became enlightened :p
22:32 signpost anything I've said in critique of mp is in service to correctly authoring the ideal man.
22:33 phf signpost: i mean it should be obvious from what i said that i actually don't believe that's the case. but now i can also understand why the conversation is mostly about bitching about mp
22:33 signpost guy was certainly not a construct of asciilifeform, and also was both of great genius and terminally flawed.
22:33 signpost instructive as all hell, to see one of these.
22:34 phf signpost: joke was about asciilifeform's particular maner of communicating, i don't actually think he was asciilifeform's invention, obv
22:34 signpost your notion that this is "bitching" is characteristically condescending, but I don't mind that about you any more than I mind asciilifeform's arrogance.
22:34 signpost of course.
22:35 signpost only interesting thing to say about tmsr is what better men would've created, or even better, shall.
22:35 signpost in this all participants are fair game.
22:48 cdd http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097480 << fwiw would like to mention has similar goals to asciilifeform but rather take fab approach to 'sane iron'
22:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 17:58:40 asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's brother once remarked 'you killed him, like you killed gabe laddel' )
22:52 crtdaydreams interesting take on zeloof
22:52 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-04-30 ben_vulpes: http://sam.zeloof.xyz/first-ic/# << 'garage' ic
22:53 crtdaydreams though FPGA changes the game quite a bit
22:54 * signpost bbl
22:55 crtdaydreams having a meta-circular fpga in the sense can use lisp stack bootstrapped to fpga to program fpga seems like the way to go imo
22:57 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097449 << entirely possib w/ above
22:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 17:29:53 asciilifeform: arrived at 'need machine where iron schematic and complete os stack fit in paperback book, or fucking die trying' in '06. then in '07 www.
22:57 * crtdaydreams prefers hardcover but whatever
23:10 verisimilitude I like the idea of extending my machine code documenting to the scale of a book, detailing a single, larger program.
23:11 verisimilitude The issue is copyright.
~ 22 minutes ~
23:33 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-19#1097495 << good story, not seen before
23:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-19 18:16:04 phf: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=I_Invented_Burrell.txt
23:34 phf i sometimes think some things are in log when they aren't, apparently folklore never came up!
23:37 * asciilifeform browsed linked www, found apropos piece, where, 'If you tell him a new idea, he'll usually tell you that he thinks it's stupid. But then, if he actually likes it, exactly one week later, he'll come back to you and propose your idea to you, as if he thought of it."'
23:37 asciilifeform knew a fella like that...
23:44 asciilifeform lotsa interesting 'klein type1' stories. ty for the link, phf
23:56 verisimilitude I bought a pizza.
23:56 asciilifeform 'rotary debugger'(tm)
23:56 verisimilitude It's interesting, how maximum oven utilization likely requires predicting orders.
23:57 * asciilifeform recalls a pc game where simulated running biz of... public pay toilet. predict utilization, optimize layout, talk to.. customers, etc
23:57 verisimilitude I believe it was Wal-Mart that would slowly increase orders from its suppliers, to let them get comfortable predicting them, and then stop, in order to bankrupt and purchase them cheaply.
23:58 asciilifeform algo pioneered by, iirc, rockefeller
23:58 asciilifeform in early 1900s
23:59 verisimilitude I think the difference is a computer can utilize resources without prediction, through better designs.
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