#asciilifeform | 2022-04-15

SNOBOL interests me little, crtdaydreams.

02:27

...after all, it's not been written by me!

02:27

I'm interested in methods of entirely eliminating problems such as parsing and whatnot.

02:30

There's one major advantage to writing my programs alone, phf; guess what it is.

02:31

hell is other people's code

02:31

That's correct; I never have issues using or customizing my programs.

02:32

verisimilitude: i find my programs from even couple of years ago to be unsatisfying

02:33

after all, you from the past might as well be another person, and unlike some junior whose will you can bend, you from the past is most definitely an asshole

02:45

That's why I try to get it right the first time.

02:50

The unsatisfying aspect of CL-ECMA-48 isn't its implementation, but that it exists at all.

02:50

I wrote a comprehensive solution I didn't need.

02:51

However, when I gaze upon my machine code or APL, I can usually smile.

02:52

The best solution is to write as little code as possible.

02:56

This is also reason to rewrite programs often.

02:57

Distill the knowledge into as concise a form as is useful to a human, and refine it to the point where there's increasingly less code.

03:04

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095709 << this is 1 of the reasons why asciilifeform disagrees with phf's earlier supposition that it is a waste of effort to try to bake 100% correct proggy.

03:04

Logged on 2022-04-14 22:32:16 phf: after all, you from the past might as well be another person, and unlike some junior whose will you can bend, you from the past is most definitely an asshole

03:04

Logged on 2022-03-31 19:10:44 phf: this is not some profound philosophical point god damn it. i'm saying that if you're just playing with concepts, who cares if its ada, or you wrote it in pascal on a piece of paper. or in php. but making it seem like you're writing avionics when you're writing a toy is masturbation

03:05

get it right -- then won't have to 'fight with past self'.

03:06

asciilifeform: that's a misrepresentation of /two/ of my possitions at once!

03:07

lol

03:09

must note tho that asciilifeform only finds 'my past self was an arse' when reads e.g. uncommented perlisms he had perpetrated, but not when e.g. ffa

03:09

if write in such a way that makes 100% sense, you'll tend to find that yer 'past self' was a quite reasonable fella.

03:10

this may be the bulk of why, logically, to do it (typically to expect that others will actually read yer proggy is overoptimistic.)

03:12

Furthermore, I'm already an asshole, so why should I care about my past self being one?

03:12

what i said to verisimilitude was mostly a humorous nag, i was trying to imply that he's not growing as a programmer. but the other part of it is that of course if you're writing gems that nobody uses, then you're neither tested by the elements, nor are you tested by your users. worse there's no reason to grow except in your own hubris "this thing of mine is perfect, only overshadowed in perfection by the next thing i wrote!"

03:12

Yes, that's the point.

03:13

The only user who matters is I.

03:13

phf: can't speak for erryone, but asciilifeform (in civilian life) writes primarily for own use (and later read), to build on, etc

03:14

Notice, phf, I don't give a fuck about ``the elements'' when my software be proven correct. Get out of that sour science mindset.

03:14

phf: perhaps similarly to how folx write diaries

03:14

major element to program design is how well it withstands change, otherwise all designs are equal, guided only by subtleties of the writer's taste or lakc of thereof

03:15

not errything is subject to 'need to withstand change'

03:15

Furthermore, I'm clearly ``growing as a programmer''.

03:16

No, remember asciilifeform, that comment about making the value of pi easy to change, in case that ever be needed?

03:16

phf: to take the humblest possible 'kitchen' example, asciilifeform doesn't expect to change fw for e.g. this either this yr or 20y from nao

03:16

Logged on 2021-07-09 11:43:58 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: arduinism is used for quick&dirty things, like this kvm remote.

03:17

^ item powered up for 1.5y+ nao and used coupla 100x/day without any apparent defect. tho admittedly very simple, but is both 'iron' and 'softs' in 1 box

03:18

*

asciilifeform expected that at least a button would give out; but nope, a++, beryllium copper contacts

03:20

or take e.g. fg; i've 1 that has been powered for almost 6y and worx same nao as when new.

03:20

I agree, phf, it's not enough for software to work, but it should work well; I never explicitly included ease of change in that, however.

03:22

'need to change' in software is necessarily a consequence of defect. (even if 'new problem', if correctly designed soft -- no need to change it, simply change the 'glue')

03:23

Even then, I like how my tabular programming style handles change. If I must add an exception, just add the exception verbatim to the table of exceptions and be done with it.

03:23

asciilifeform: where do you place ffa? specifically the part where it couldn't be used at the particular task it was set out to be applied to

03:24

i mean it's clearly a lovely piece of engineering, on one hand, but on the hand it was never placed in production, because ^

03:24

*on the other

03:25

phf: tooslow for rsaing packets (as described in pedantic detail by asciilifeform) but in fact currently using for gpg sig verification locally, and eventually will package as proper replacement for gpg both-ways

03:25

where it dun much matter that an operation takes entire 0.4sec

03:25

asciilifeform: oh i understand that, i'm more saying is the tooslow a defect?

03:26

(in fact ffa's modexp is faster, in avg. case, than gmp's.)

03:27

phf: it isn't asciilifeform's place, in fact, to answer this. elementarily, if there's actually an algo asciilifeform failed to derive that'd permit hammingweight-indep. 4096bit modexp on pc in e.g. 0.004s -- then the discoverer will have the right to laff at asciilifeform and say 'it was defective'

03:30

part of asciilifeform's orig. aim was to determine what the op in question intrinsically costs on pc. (hypothetically one could shave some of the cost w/ further asmism, but won't change significantly, bvt's innerloop optimizations i suspect are ~exhaustive there)

03:32

hypothetically there may exist undiscovered algos (for that matter, even ones that'd nail rsa, lol. then can go back and say that entire class of rsatrons -- 'defective', straight to stoke furnace then)

03:33

the q of 'what's a defect' is imho interesting and i suspect diff folx will give variant answers.

03:34

obv. 'bug' in the conventional sense qualifies. but say you laboured under the notion that you used the optimal possible algo for $problem, and then new one found.

03:36

I'd rather we be in the state where the uninteresting defects no longer exist, before getting philosophical.

03:36

asciilifeform's pov is that a lethal -- or otherwise crippling 'surprise' -- constitutes a defect. whether in form of 'bug' or 'hey bro turns out p==np, wagner, cyanide'.

03:37

verisimilitude: is 1 of the points asciilifeform was trying to make. i.e. let's get to the point where a surprise gotta be at least approaching to 'p==np' variety.

03:37

Yet my concerns with ``What if this unlikely event occurs.'' are laughed at.

03:38

verisimilitude: is entirely legit to discuss unlikely events if a) they're pertinent to $system b) you've a grip on the actual statistics of their occurrence

03:39

'eats a neutron' -- qualifies, in some contexts. 'eats an asteroid' -- normally not

03:44

asciilifeform: i think defect is reasoned by user, and then you're in the counterparty problem. verisimilitude eliminates counetrparty, therefore his reasoning is monadic. "if you want you want your program's to be to verisimilitude's liking, then follow his advice", but nothing else

03:46

phf: ultimately is impossible, elementarily, to guaranteedly satisfy other people and 'to eternity'

03:46

asciilifeform: that's a reductio ad absurdum, your favorite rhetoric device :)

03:46

but ~is~ possible to correctly and permanently implement a mechanism that you fully understand, such that for so long as you live won't need to reopen the case.

03:47

Yes.

03:47

That's usually called getting it right the first time.

03:48

verisimilitude: i can't recall at any pt 'getting right the first time'

03:48

counterparty for ffa is a more complicated question, because it has painful history. i'm not particularly satisfied with "only a genius greater than mine can judge me". tool was supposed to solve specific problem, which was providing bedrock for networked tmsr tooling.

03:48

Or, at least getting it right at all.

03:49

phf: e.g. giffard's dirigible was also 'for specific problem', similarly.

03:50

often happens that a necessary $part , no matter how much you want, simply aint avail.

03:50

and the $machine then has to wait. unfortunately, equally often, until long after init. attempter is dead.

03:51

( in giffard's case, if recall -- the petrol engine. steam dun give the pwr/mass ratio req'd for a useful dirigible )

03:53

the contention, phf, wasn't re 'genius may judge' but re whether given $problem in fact solvable under the given constraints, w/ avail. means.

03:54

and that asciilifeform's answer aint provably final, someone could easily find an order-of-magnitude improvement, analogous to barrett's but 'over9000x', which'd 100% overturn asciilifeform's verdict.

03:55

has nought to do w/ 'who gets to judge'.

03:55

oblig.

03:55

crtdaydreams: do you have an ideological problem with reading the history of a $redditbullshit in the logs before posting about one ?

03:56

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=pqcrypto&chan=asciilifeform wut

03:56

crtdaydreams: e.g.

03:57

let's also discuss 'post-martian crypto'. y'know, such that'll be used after martians land.

03:57

ffs did you even read?

03:58

not supposed to be "crypto made with quantum computers" and whatnot, just supposed to be perceptively unable to crack in $n cycles

03:59

ofc if the above issues you mention w/ RSA and algorithmic cracking opposed to just brute-force then sure.

04:00

crtdaydreams: read, when orig. posted. has 0 to do with 'in $n cycles', but w/ shor's algo & variants. on the entirely imaginary apparatus advertised as 'quantum computer' (originally a joke paper by r.feynman, nao a multi-$1e9 reich grantsmanship game, reminiscent of 'hot fusion')

04:00

crtdaydreams: the 'qc' memeplex was adapted by nsa & friends to 'fud' actual working crypto (rsa) and peddle questionable and baroquely complicated 'replacements'

04:01

in which capacity it continues to perform a++ (w/ e.g. bernstein's shilling) despite the continued nonexistence of the 'philosopher's stone', err, qc, per se.

04:01

Logged on 2022-03-23 13:17:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087292 << in case yer unaware, bernstein turned yrs ago

04:01

crtdaydreams: this was discussed in agonizing detail in the old #t log.

04:02

ok

04:04

ah

04:04

nsa stooge

04:04

righto

04:05

to round off this subthread -- often enuff ~can~ solve problem, if replace it w/ ~different~ problem, that is solvable w/ avail. means. e.g.

04:05

Logged on 2022-04-14 23:52:13 asciilifeform: the contention, phf, wasn't re 'genius may judge' but re whether given $problem in fact solvable under the given constraints, w/ avail. means.

04:07

http://wot.deedbot.org/E17E4208DABCC09AD9CFC02F5A8D21C01AD12CAA.asc

!!key crtdaydreams

04:07

deedbot

04:07

( analogously, fixed-wing plane replaced dirigible. )

04:08

will be able to do pest when I get home, will need a peer to do nat fwd

04:09

*

asciilifeform must bbl.

04:09

just don't pile your chairs up on sand

04:10

asciilifeform: or perhaps "implement on the wire crypto that minimizes side channel" is a different problem from http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095752 and has a solution that doesn't number theory breakthrough

04:10

Logged on 2022-04-14 23:26:28 asciilifeform: phf: it isn't asciilifeform's place, in fact, to answer this. elementarily, if there's actually an algo asciilifeform failed to derive that'd permit hammingweight-indep. 4096bit modexp on pc in e.g. 0.004s -- then the discoverer will have the right to laff at asciilifeform and say 'it was defective'

04:20

phf: sidechannel leakage of rsa privkey aint analogous to e.g. leakage of co from furnace -- there aint and cannot be a 'safe level to minimize to' other than 0

04:21

phf: orthogonally to this, fwiw you'll get sub-millisec. modexp w/ ffa (again, in fact faster than mpi's, the latter hadn't barretron) if yer willing to live with small public exponents (e.g. fixated to 65535 a la gpg), simply that asciilifeform wasn't

04:22

asciilifeform: i didn't say rsa

04:22

per asciilifeform , these unnecessarily narrow the keyspace (and play along into whatever optimized cracking irons enemy may've built to date)

04:22

phf: can naturally take sumthing other than rsa (e.g. shitoshi, did)

04:23

but then won't be 'simple like kalash.' (even if we ignore the q of 'is ecc intrinsically hard')

04:23

re: ffa; installed ada some 2hrs ago in prep to go through

04:23

est. time to complete?

04:23

crtdaydreams: to complete what?

04:24

read through ffa and do exercises / fit in head

04:24

crtdaydreams: 450 hours

04:24

crtdaydreams: will depend on head, lol

04:24

phf: how little faith :(

04:25

so maybe my original point can be restated as: if you define what constitutes defects to your advantage, then produce gems all the time. by eliminating counterparty problem you basically eliminate discourse, making it all monadic

04:26

*then can

04:28

but also that's maybe why i said "why ada? just write it in bash!" in that thread, which is not a practical advice but a dis. if was talking to linus circa '95, knew the future, would've said "why write it in bash? write in ada!"

04:28

fwiw asciilifeform doesn't sit and narciss at whatever proggy, 'ooh, gem'.

04:31

phf: pertinently, asciilifeform's main crit. of ada is that in fact 'too bash', i.e. insufficiently compact impl. making it difficult to guarantee identical function 'errywhere, 4evah' w/out substantial bootstrap wankology

04:32

(imho a 'light ada' where e.g. oop and other 'heavy' -- mercilessly extirpated, would be a win)

04:32

( esp. if result could be bootstrapped sanely )

04:32

Logged on 2022-03-17 13:49:32 asciilifeform: but demonstrates the style in which asciilifeform believes a 'bootstrap' oughta be written

04:33

i regret tmsr didn't last long enough for us all to write pascal unironically. it would've been a perfect confluence of the ideology

04:34

phf: from asciilifeform's current pov, pascal simply feels like ada w/out some of the better knobs (array slices, etc)

04:34

*

asciilifeform in fact grew up w/ 'borland turbopascal' and many happy memories. but nao sees it through above lens.

04:38

phf: for extra lulz, recall that (after asciilifeform thrown outta the train) folx were 'writing unironically'... php

04:38

so could say 'lived longenuff' in fact

04:38

perhaps if had carried on, could've went to cobol.

04:40

*

asciilifeform to bed

04:40

asciilifeform: well, see when i said confluence i meant that php is kind of "writing pascal" but without the engineering part. after everyone suddenly!1 realized that gnat is a beast with many issues, i feel like there was an opportunity to continue down a purity spiral. can see oberon or pascal becoming the next tmsr language

~ 18 minutes ~

04:59

A better purity spiral is abandoning text entirely.

05:03

a better purity spiral is the friends we made along the way

05:05

We're making friends?

05:11

:D how is your day going; phf, verisimilitude

05:22

I'm fine.

~ 3 hours 22 minutes ~

08:44

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095685 << i've been wondering what took so long with ramping up the weaponized diagnoses

08:44

Logged on 2022-04-14 17:36:01 verisimilitude: ``The average Bitcoin investor is a calculating psychopath with an inflated ego, according to scientists.''

08:45

not every trumpenreich / putler sympathizer is a narcissistic socoipath yet. why not?

08:47

vax skeptics aren't suffering from low grade psychosis. why not?

08:47

alt right readers don't all beat women, etc. i assume this is coming at some point.

~ 29 minutes ~

09:17

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095788 << a lot of efforts to up the complexity across the tech stack. industry would go bankrupt & spying thwarted if everything worked well?

09:17

Logged on 2022-04-14 23:59:40 asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: the 'qc' memeplex was adapted by nsa & friends to 'fud' actual working crypto (rsa) and peddle questionable and baroquely complicated 'replacements'

~ 25 minutes ~

09:42

asciilifeform: re yesterday's china thread, is your pov that us and china are essentially joined at the hip whereas ru can potentially break apart?

09:44

in the us a lot of conservatives are "zomg china" about all manner of problems; presumably in cn there are equivalent people saying "zomg us" about everything

09:47

similarly "zomg jews". afaict jews are overrepresented among the gloves, whence their reputation

09:47

Logged on 2022-04-11 14:36:57 asciilifeform: the faces which do so appear -- changed 'like gloves' regularly

~ 3 hours 20 minutes ~

13:07

in cattle tag news, a payment implant is now available for $300

13:19

5 minutes of new j6 footage

~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~

14:31

mangol: lulzy, exactly as per witnesses at the time.

14:37

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095834 << easily could've. this would've required some straight hands, tho, to make'em usable, which at that pt weren't available.

14:37

Logged on 2022-04-15 00:39:34 phf: asciilifeform: well, see when i said confluence i meant that php is kind of "writing pascal" but without the engineering part. after everyone suddenly!1 realized that gnat is a beast with many issues, i feel like there was an opportunity to continue down a purity spiral. can see oberon or pascal becoming the next tmsr language

14:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095840 << luckily, the reaganites destroyed the asylums.

14:39

Logged on 2022-04-15 04:43:40 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095685 << i've been wondering what took so long with ramping up the weaponized diagnoses

14:40

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095851 << avail. at veterinarian shops for many yrs.

14:40

Logged on 2022-04-15 09:06:14 mangol: in cattle tag news, a payment implant is now available for $300

14:49

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095845 << the 'industry' does very little else, lol

14:49

Logged on 2022-04-15 05:16:26 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095788 << a lot of efforts to up the complexity across the tech stack. industry would go bankrupt & spying thwarted if everything worked well?

14:49

Logged on 2022-03-27 14:42:25 asciilifeform: mangol: moreover, the entire economic underpinning of the field as it exists currently is based on studiously avoiding actual solutions to anything

15:03

apropos old essay by Bertrand Russell

15:04

funny to read a philosopher tackle economics, since he's free of the latter field's notion that it's virtuous to produce anything that sells

15:07

it's not really clear to me what capitalism (of any flavor) added to the historical model of master / serf

15:08

like democracy, it seems "new and snazzy desktop but kernel is the same old"

15:09

ideally both capitalism and democracy make powerful people responsible for their actions, but that part tends to be conveniently subverted

~ 48 minutes ~

15:57

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095865 << it freed master from responsibility 'for continuation of life on the land'. a serf or slave is a capital good, needs to be fed year-round whether or not yer plantation is +ev.

15:57

Logged on 2022-04-15 11:06:10 mangol: it's not really clear to me what capitalism (of any flavor) added to the historical model of master / serf

16:01

similarly freed for responsibility for the land per se. a feudal lord who wrecked his soil, or allowed it to be overrun with invaders, etc. would suffer consequences on own skin. whereas his modern-day equiv. simply buys new one, just like plebe buys new toyota after 'totaling' previous

16:03

from modern serf's pov, also various 'freedoms', but given as these largely imaginary, imho only interesting from 'psychiatric' pov, and not worth to detail

16:11

"any problem can be solved by another layer of indirection"

16:11

to the extent we have a better standard of living, seems it's mainly due to technology (which masks any number of social ills)

16:12

mangol: from lizard pov, the modern serf's 'better living' is a bug, not feature, like gas leak in pipeline. it is being fixed.

16:13

whereas, conversely, the 'social ills', from that pov, are features, not bugs, and largely result of deliberate experiments at 'bonsai kitten' design

16:14

e.g. destruction of family : entirely deliberate, and has a variety of wins from lizard pov -- force plebes to borrow from usurers; moar easily move'em around to where needed; bonsaikitten w/out family has fewer loyalties that might conflict w/ reich; and so forth

16:16

yep, i gather family is the main enemy of the state

16:17

what's your take on the kalergi plan? (i.e. turn europeans into slave race for the elite)

16:17

incidentally, that process has been going for centuries. 'intact family' aint the item wanked over by american 'conservatives', from 1950; but rather the archaetypical structure seen among chechens, bedouins, pashtuns, et al, where an offense by outsider results in blood debt.

16:18

mangol: not familiar with the particular named meme. (and would ask, why only europeans? is identical plan errywhere)

16:19

it's not a meme, it's a specific book. readable on archive.org iirc

16:19

similar power trip as what rockefellers wrote century ago

16:20

like schwab today, seems no attempt was made to hide the plans

16:20

*

asciilifeform not seen. but to date not impressed with supposed 'tell all confessions' by various schwabs, there's no particular reason why they'd lay out uncensored plan publicly

16:21

they do like to troll the susceptible, but the material in question usually not esp. interesting to the historically literate

16:21

Logged on 2022-03-25 12:38:16 asciilifeform: mangol: reich stratagem is to set up a perceived dichotomy where yer either 'with the program' or out in 'the lonesome deep space', outside the city walls, in company of 'martians did 9-11', etc. illiterates/schizos

16:22

the successfully-trolled end in the glue trap, worx a++

16:22

Logged on 2022-04-11 14:40:22 asciilifeform: mangol: generally a plebe who attempts to discover (how?) concretes re identity of lizards, at best ends in a designated glue trap, similar to the kind erry bio lab in the world has for escaped mice.

16:23

these books are general enough that they don't point at specific items which could be used to foil the plans

16:24

e.g. schwab's book doesn't include contact information and staff listing for his volcano lair

16:25

mangol: even if you knew exactly where it was and had with what to glass it, would not put much of a dent in 'plan'. the incentives are structural.

16:25

exactly

16:25

i suspect the brain is wired to produce one kind of social structure. every deviation from that is a short term detour

16:27

afaict the main ingredient in the kalergi plan was dysgenics

16:27

in schwab's plan, making it impossible to own property

16:27

in rockefellers', unipolar world

16:28

but these are in broad agreement

16:28

mangol: already in no major industrialized country can you own (i.e. allodial title) property, for 200+yr nao

16:29

that process, again, had been in motion for centuries.

16:32

this kinda 'tell-all plan' is wai asciilifeform regards the various schwabs, etc. as disinfo. they present already long-installed auschwitz fences as 'new' and invite gullible reader to 'resist' (largely by wanking into reddit, but at any rate in no case 'resistance' based on fallacious model will have any interesting effect other than inexpensive neutralization of the 'resisters')

16:33

i interpret these books as simple ego trips. i don't think disinfo of this kind is necessary

16:33

'shit test', as you said. "i can tell people i'll take their stuff, and then i'll take it"

16:34

more fun than simply waiting and taking it

16:34

it is produced for a reason. has similar purpose to blinders on horse.

16:35

the meme re 'ohnoez, implantable credit cards' -- what effect it has, other than to make regular usury look 'conservative' in comparison.

16:35

or the (commonplace in usa) wank re 'destroyed families', with '1950 family' presented as example of 'intact'.

16:36

similarly effective misdirection.

16:36

that sounds overkill to me. would people really wake up en masse to the current scams in the absence of these future scenarios?

16:37

(or take the 'vax' wankage. )

16:37

Logged on 2022-03-25 12:21:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-25#1088262 << reich dispensed with all traditional pretenses of anyffin resembling objective stats gathering, publication of negatives, etc. -- not even necessarily because 'ohnoez, mega-death from dud vax' but, likely, simply to troll the noncompliant into tilt

16:37

Logged on 2022-03-25 12:27:23 asciilifeform: 'martianization' plays on the reich plebe's appetite for 'rezistenta prin cultura' (aka wank). it takes all of 10min to convincingly forge the handwritten vax receipt. but no, gotta wank, gotta picket, walk straight into the 'martian' 'free speech zone' conveniently set up by the herders.

16:38

mangol: objective aint to prevent the mythical 'wake up' but to continuously reduce cost of cattle management.

16:38

Logged on 2022-04-09 14:00:00 asciilifeform: mangol: how do you picture result of 'wake up' ?

16:39

suppose they want to reduce the cost by making people eat bugs. would people be better equipped to resist bug eating if schwab didn't announce it in books?

16:40

there's a component of global gleichschaltung, but this aint against 'ohnoez, plebes could wakeup' but rather against threat of alt-civilizations which could eat the current reich.

16:40

Logged on 2022-04-11 11:59:36 asciilifeform: mangol: in re the bigger picture. and not simply 'east expansion', but that reich rather obv. cannot survive 1) without continuing to get ru fuels & other minerals for ~phree 2) the continued existence of an alt-civilization

16:41

i.e. prison must not have windows from which inmates can peer at the free world?

16:41

mangol: the 'eat bugs' meme has similar purpose to the 'ohnoez, implants' one. 'yes all milk is soy nao but at least they aint feeding us roaches yet'.

16:41

Logged on 2022-04-15 12:34:18 asciilifeform: the meme re 'ohnoez, implantable credit cards' -- what effect it has, other than to make regular usury look 'conservative' in comparison.

16:42

mangol: atm there aint a 'free world'. but at one time there were, and lizards existentially terrified that could again be.

16:44

mangol: observe that the 'conservative' memeplex consists entirely of these devices. 'they'll make us, soon', e.g., 'eat bugs', 'own nuffin', 'live w/out families', 'work as slaves', and the reader eagerly forgets that all of these have already happened to him.

16:44

and, often enuff, 100-200y ago, rather than 'soon'.

16:45

i don't get the impression from internet rw sites that people are blinded to their current lot

16:45

'they'll build radio mind control towers' 'sorry bro, already built, in 1920s, yer tuned into one right nao'

16:47

mangol: take the widespread wankage re 'family'. how many folx in industrialized world have any fucking idea what 'intact family' was.

16:47

the very concept was forgotten there 20+ generations ago.

16:47

so yes, blind.

16:48

'intact' in what sense?

16:48

in the sense where someone kills yer brother, you & all other adult males in yer clan go and kill two of his.

16:49

and where yer home is ~actually~ yer castle, not metaphorically. complete with artillery.

16:51

but naturally 'ohnoez, that's scary, let's wank re censorship on twatter!' etc

16:53

people talk about stuff like this but it's not actionable beyond buying guns. you'd have to move some place no one cares about, or start a war

16:53

mangol: not all facts 'actionable'.

16:54

how's pining for an older period in history less of a wank than worrying about the future?

16:55

mangol: q is, do you prefer to have a working descriptive model of reality ? for own sake.

16:56

in that case, not mutually exclusive

16:56

sometimes working model comes w/ tangible bonuses (e.g. folx who went long on btc in 2010s, instead of paying into pension fund lulz), but not always

16:56

agreed. this is my interest in the topic as well

16:57

or topics, should say - a whole raft of them

16:58

one more benefit is therapy. if you feel vaguely that the world sucks, it's a relief to get to the bottom of why

16:58

mangol: in either case to asciilifeform idea of playing role of bull in a corrida, charging at red flag, is unappealing. either charge at matador, if get a chance, or simply chew moar grass, either is smarter than 'at flag'

16:58

'conservative memeplex' -- flag.

16:59

i think you mix the people who charge at the red flag with the people who observe for entertainment

16:59

well imho the 'entertainment' aint partic. entertaining. repetitive rerun of exactly same corrida ad infinitum.

17:00

quite likely that the entertainment value wears off over time. i got into politics very late - one of those naturally apolitical people

17:01

*got into observing

17:01

this here's the only 'political' asciilifeform is interested in.

17:02

errything else imho is a guaranteed run in circle.

17:10

the red matador flags are put there because in fact very effective -- chasing the flags feels considerably more like 'resist' to nearly all bulls, than to do the few unsexy, tedious, and in most cases still futile things with which can factually resist.

17:14

great read. i saw that essay when i was a teenager, but was to young to grasp it.

17:14

mangol: has broader implications than the nominal subject, imho.

17:14

Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.

17:15

that's the thing - i don't see the things by which resistance is possible. that's why i don't see much difference between "eat bugs" and "make the people's crypto"

17:16

any number of things would help if a critical mass of people took upon them

17:16

lack of critical mass is the problem

17:16

mangol: it may help to look at subj again after shedding 'desire to feel personally significant' and concern with 'critical masses'.

17:16

Logged on 2022-02-01 17:45:11 asciilifeform: signpost: the apparatus maintains a caste of parasites with chronic ennui, these spin in place agitproping, 'opensoresing', etc. on own steam, attempting to quench unquenchable thirst of 'feeling significant'

17:16

the actual personal choice available to most people isn't 'sit on arse or defeat reich with own 2 hands'. it's rather 'whether to sing 'horst wessel lied' or 'hatikva' while being gassed.'

17:19

declaring your beliefs when you know it won't help is about feeling personally significant

17:20

"sing reich's song" vs "be silent" is about whether or not you submit mentally

17:21

"spit on rulers' face" is a sentiment some have, but i find it hard to see how the rulers would be affected

17:22

it aint about 'spit in face', tho, but rather such a thing as principles. yes, largely extinct concept.

17:23

principles = 100% about feeling personally significant

17:23

the reich thinks their principles are the ones that matter, and they have the force to back up their claim

17:24

mangol: the 'force' can do 2 things to you -- kill you; or , as muchly prefers, leave you biologically alive but effectively dead inside, by taking the castle inside yer head.

17:25

in the latter case, you become a component of the machine.

17:25

you said earlier that reich is built not to care about beliefs of inmates

17:26

notably, the latter gives over9000x moar 'feel significant', which is why most eagerly pick it even when no one is standing with pistol to his head and 'or die'

17:26

that depends on the person. some can only feel significant by belonging to a group, others only by opposing group. for many, it depends on the group.

17:28

the unquestionably honorable thing to do is to refuse to believe & parrot propaganda

17:29

mangol: observe, atm no one is even pointing pistol and forcing the parrots.

17:29

naturally

17:29

hasn't been req'd for rather long time.

17:29

well, more like the consequences have been softened

17:29

you can still lose family, job, etc.

17:30

mangol: if yer a high-ranking parrot, and then stop -- yes. otherwise largely mythical.

17:32

if you're talking about most "parrots", tend to have "moderate" views (by current standards, which are extreme historically) formed by information from one source

17:32

so it's not much of a compromise of principles for them

17:33

mangol: the 'they're afraid of losing job' thing is largely a forced meme.

17:33

granted that there are many times when we knowingly compromise principles, and some have opted to do that for a living

17:36