Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-04-06 | 2022-04-08 →
00:40 asciilifeform phf, signpost : lulzy re gourd. somehow forgot that thrd. ( subj is in fact mentioned in an underground orcish classic, 'notes of an undisciplined officer', re: kazahs )
00:41 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-06#1093373 << damn near errything is best when 'maintenance by somebody else'. like thompson's mig.
00:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-06 15:03:56 phf: also when boarding is handled by somebody else, etc. :)
00:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-06 02:33:42 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1093149 << ken thompson flew mig recreationally
~ 10 hours 18 minutes ~
11:00 * adlai wonders how to reduce paste buffer failures in the future, short of treating everything as nuke launch-codes-and-simultaneous-keys-etcetera
11:01 adlai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1093061 << this is a bit of a false equivalence, imo
11:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-05 15:50:30 PeterL: verisimilitude: why do you always put the latin words in all caps?
11:02 adlai in those days, the act of writing was young compared to what we've got today.
11:04 adlai one theory I recall, from forgotten source, is that the classical capslock stereotype is due to the ease of making straight lines and curves with large radius when engraving stone and scratching clay with a stylus, compared to the fancy calligraphy you can do when using ink.
11:05 adlai ink and papyrus, and parchment, and other various implements, did definitely exist in those days, although were less permanent.
11:06 adlai fwiw, I don't think I ever wrote latin in allcaps before less than a decade ago, when refreshing my latin knowledge by occasionally discussing it on IRC.
11:07 adlai in school - capitalised like any natural language, i.e. never letters other than first of a word, and only in words with a specific reason for this (after certain punctuation, and proper names)
11:08 adlai even, I emphasize, when writing with chalk on blackboard, which is much more similar to stylus and tablet than ink and parchment.
11:09 adlai some students do chalkboard calligraphy... most, don't. most fragment chalk into useless shards and then claim asthma.
11:20 * adlai never spent enough idle time at chalkboard to master this kind of calligraphy; some teachers, otoh, were legendary for rendering physical aids (e.g. compass) extraneous, could draw better and faster without them
11:20 adlai of course, good luck getting a teacher to vacate the teacher's seat... chalkboard is for students to expose each other's mistakes. teacher? at best, spectator; at worst, ibidem.
11:24 * adlai wonders whether any of the terminal-keyboard resenters here 'hover'
11:24 adlai I don't know what verb better describes the synthesis of hunt-and-peck and touch-typing.
11:26 adlai in practice, what I'd describe as 'hovering', is when I have one hand elsewhere -- whether busy or idle, irrelevant -- and only one hand active, typically resting in the qwerty FGHJ region, and when typing, doing so without placing weight on the wrist.
11:27 adlai obviously, OOM less efficient than conventional touch-typing.
11:36 adlai 'OOM' ~= order-of-magnitude; 'ibidem' = latin adverb, ~= english 'similarly', most commonly seen these days in lists of citations to mean "anything left to interpretation defaults to identical values found in most recent citation"
11:37 * adlai abandons self-interpretation and returns to study of compiler
~ 3 hours 8 minutes ~
14:46 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
14:46 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $43428.72
14:46 asciilifeform !w poll
14:46 watchglass Polling 15 nodes...
14:46 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=730857 (Operator: whaack)
14:46 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.129s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:46 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.166s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:46 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.143s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.307s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.309s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730184
14:46 watchglass 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.326s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.656s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:46 watchglass 75.106.222.93:8333 : Alive: (0.539s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
14:47 watchglass 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.507s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=428615 (Operator: whaack)
14:47 asciilifeform !q uptime
14:47 dulapbot asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 295d 11h 44m
14:48 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
~ 1 hours 56 minutes ~
16:44 mats https://archive.ph/4LU2H
16:46 asciilifeform mats: related earlier lulz
16:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 13:10:06 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087064 << imho rather obv. at this pt that reich doesn't recognize the existence of any powers other than self. the lulz where usg talking head emitted a 'china must obey...' quite illustrative.
16:47 asciilifeform iirc was comedic episode, where reich talking head 'threatened' cn with... recall of 'software licenses'
16:52 signpost https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-threatens-forceful-measures-if-pelosi-visits-taiwan-amid-reports-speaker-arrive << see also
16:53 signpost "It's been confirmed that Nancy Pelosi's weekend Asia trip has been postponed following her positive Covid-19 test."
16:53 asciilifeform lol!
16:54 signpost if true, too bad the thing's perfectly curable with the appropriate amount of money.
16:55 * asciilifeform not recalls even 1 reich politician 'died of covid'
17:05 signpost videotape could emerge of these creatures being fucked in the ass by Xi, and there'd be no reaction.
17:05 asciilifeform naturally
17:07 asciilifeform not even clear to asciilifeform why reich bothers with the media circus. given as makes 0 diff in reality what inmates think.
17:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 16:29:03 asciilifeform: the # of 'unbelievers' is unknown, cuz reich aint set up in such a way that the captives' beliefs actually matter in any way
17:07 asciilifeform evidently 'religious' ritual.
17:08 asciilifeform reich inmate hasn't any knobs within reach that connected to anyffin.
17:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 16:24:14 asciilifeform: well say a fella decides 'nyt is fulla shit, wish i could serve putin'. what's his next step.
17:09 signpost yep, they like the feeling that they're in on the scam.
17:09 signpost only kind of person that'd even take the job.
17:10 phf speaking of policiticans who died of covid, Zhirinovsky passed away yesterday. end of an era
17:10 * asciilifeform saw
17:11 asciilifeform makes approx. same diff as if e.g. trump had keeled over, tho
17:11 asciilifeform d00d wasn't afaik really a playing character at any pt
17:12 phf more like a famous actor from your childhood passing away. trump at least had significant recent impact, z. was mostly up to the same shenanigans since the 90s
17:13 asciilifeform trump -- also actor. but yea
17:13 asciilifeform 'my hands are clean, but if i were to become president, they will be covered in blood!'(tm)(r)(zhirik)
17:14 signpost consider that everything trump needed to arrest his political adversary fell in his lap while still "president", amounted to nothing.
17:14 signpost the laptop episode, I mean.
17:15 asciilifeform his buttons weren't connected. rather like the placebo buttons at pedestrian crossings in washingtonistan.
17:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-02 18:55:28 asciilifeform: recall that brochure where listed the ministries trump promised to close ?
17:15 signpost I'm sure they read him a long list of kompromat on day 1.
17:16 asciilifeform not only, but when issued edicts, supposed 'subordinates' just laffed.
17:16 phf isn't that an old dave chappelle skit, "on the first day they sat down obama, showed him all the files, and explained why there will be no change" etc.
17:16 signpost bill hicks joke, satan bless him.
17:17 phf by trump refined process, no change needed if buttons don't work
17:17 signpost "they show you the kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before"
17:17 signpost "just one question, what's my agenda?"
17:17 signpost hell, might be carlin. I'm sure they all did that one.
17:19 phf yeah that's hick alright, i think chappelle's take was a lot more benign, like there's /reasons/
17:24 asciilifeform phf: speaking of old folx, asciilifeform to this day puzzles re wai dks 100% impervious to commercial collab. esp. given as usg seems to have cut him off.
17:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-05 22:44:37 phf: asciilifeform: his remaining stock requires technical and engineering skill to get to a packaged state
17:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 09:54:36 asciilifeform: and see also. loox like not even the ancient support contract paid since '15 -- unless under the table
17:24 asciilifeform phf: possibly asciilifeform simply ill mannered & perma-pissed him off in 2010s
17:26 * asciilifeform for extra lulz, may've in fact personally issued his very last usg contract
17:29 phf asciilifeform: i think the subject has been discussed to death a) most "collabs" that come his way are from autistic dreamers b) the structure of ownership between him and mallory puts him into a very tight straightjacket c) you're a curmudgeon
17:29 asciilifeform ( '11. in fact did the legwork to convince bureaucrats that, indeed, a dec-alpha-lispm is precisely what is needed in $shithole, did the 'sole source justification' etc. ceremonies.. )
17:31 asciilifeform phf: must be quite tight straightjacket evidently
17:32 * asciilifeform wonders how many 0s would need in the dough on the barrelhead for d00d to start writhing in the straightjacket detectably
17:33 phf yeah see it's shit like that. why don't you approach mallory instead who is the actual owner of symbolics? see how far you can get. dks actually does things, but then neither you nor mp believe in the whisperers approach, which is fine by me
17:33 asciilifeform phf: at one pt actually wrote to mallery. /dev/null
17:34 asciilifeform ( hence asciilifeform's cosmography re role of mallery, i.e. likely his interest aint commercial )
17:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 09:55:35 asciilifeform: afaik still owned by j. mallery, who most likely a minor-league nsa stooge.
17:36 * asciilifeform had written to k.reti (grand vizier, approx) , then, also, identical result.
17:39 asciilifeform re dks , imho rather odd that feeding him for yr+ still dun getcha distinguished from 'autistic redditus'. but nfi.
17:39 phf i think mallory is the reason neither you nor signpost like horses, kek. man is an "avid skier" of the brandy at a lodge in aspen type, carrier apparatchik, living out his last days by way of his class. why do anything with symbolics assets when you can just feel self important by owning it, in that respect no different from a jade jewelry box from the orient, or a lion's head over a mantel
17:40 * asciilifeform recalls similar frustration of mp, who fed (moar stingily, even) the openbsd d00d, who then wouldn't answer mail
17:40 asciilifeform phf: possibly; can't say for certain through my telescope.
17:41 * signpost still suspicious of the openbsd dismissal.
17:41 asciilifeform (that is, whether 'appointed by pentagon to ensure 'putler' dun get bolix ip' or 'rockefeller, collected it with jade horses to keep in his scrooge mcduck gold swimming pool' )
17:42 signpost "take this money, and here is my blog where I discuss the amusing episode of my bitch's latest anal fissure"
17:42 asciilifeform lol
17:42 asciilifeform d00d didn't ~have~ to take, is the thing
17:42 phf asciilifeform: you're mixing your metaphors. jade boxes and lionheads are not for rockefeller, they are for the servents of empire, retired
17:43 signpost sure
17:43 asciilifeform (not like anal fissure chronicle? dun take?)
17:43 * signpost not taking a moral stance against buttstuff, here.
17:44 signpost phf: at any rate, my gripe with these is the poverty of their tastes, not that they enjoy retirement.
17:45 * signpost been to the vineyard, to ski town, florida beach house, etc
17:46 * asciilifeform did not find much re mallery, other than 'retired prof' w/ ~no publications and a predilection for nsa mouthpiecing evidently recreationally
17:46 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-01-17 asciilifeform: 'John Mallery @jcmallery_cyber 25 Dec 2017 Declinism is a psyop of adversaries...it was spread before during the Vietnam war.' << ahahahaha gold
17:46 signpost if they like empire, empire better!
17:46 signpost asciilifeform: yep, makes my point better than I did.
17:48 asciilifeform most folx sitting on e.g. rembrandt, ~will~ let go of it if someone shows up w/ enuff dough. (and generally the req'd sum aint a total mystery.) but asciilifeform suspects this is rather different case.
17:48 phf asciilifeform: he's an ngo consultant, it's a type of person who's an external mouthpiece second, and internal one first. he make presentations on relevant talking points from his domain to move forward agendas within closed political organizations.
17:49 * asciilifeform has encountered this type in meatspace biz, familiar.
17:52 phf if you need to e.g. bring democracy to moldova you have a wide variety of organizations doing semi engineering work, tearing copper lines out, placing voip lines in, that route through mclean. you have other organizations praying on first organizations for some kind of auxilary support. can't have those voip lines without special cyber security dust sprinkled. that's when mallory comes in, prof emeritus mit, with a history in ai and
17:52 phf cyber security and writes you a presentation at x$/hr for two years
17:52 signpost woof.
17:53 * asciilifeform to his shame worked w/ very similar schemes, at bottoms of org charts however, for yrs
17:53 signpost this was why I couldn't stay at $megacorp.
17:53 signpost 99% saying the magic words while you click through a deck.
17:53 * asciilifeform manufactured the 'magic dusts' etc
17:53 phf signpost: this is actually not megacorp, this is a different kind of beast, that 99% of americans don't know or understand. the NGO
17:54 phf ngos is how everything is done, badly, in the empire
17:54 signpost just applying the symbols from the set I've got.
17:54 asciilifeform moar or less like ordinary usg corp but w/out the pretense of 'market' or 'clients'. i.e. w/ exactly 1 client.
17:54 phf converting tax money into political agenda
17:56 * signpost has a hard time distinguishing this from e.g. "X" projects
17:56 signpost megacorp in the limit's pretty integrated with imperial objectives.
17:56 asciilifeform most such outfits aint 'mega' in the usual sense. typically an office downtown w/ maybe coupla dozen, max, bodies
17:56 asciilifeform budget aint always 'mega', either
17:57 signpost at any rate, the comparison's not important to me, other than having to internalize a religion, convince reporting structure that religious objectives are being achieved.
17:57 asciilifeform but, importantly, reliably and directly from printola press, for so long as krysha dun leak
17:57 phf the 1.5 aid to ukrain, or the 150 infrastructure bill (or whatever it is), will be primarily realized by ngos. they are not directly beneficiaries of that money, but they are the middle men between the government and the contractors
17:58 signpost that also, "FAANG" is definitely running on printola.
17:59 signpost and in most of these, most of the "product" runs cover for the actual product.
17:59 asciilifeform phf: aha, typically usg throws e.g. 100m, and it buys 5-6 riverfront mansions, and remainder to indian grad students, min.wage interns, and coupla 100 e.g. ukrs working for 3$/d
18:00 * signpost kinda sees the "turn the pretense knob way down" and "the extraction knob way up" of this.
18:00 signpost I'm sure there's much here I'm not familiar with.
18:00 asciilifeform good % of the technical employment in washingtonistan is for (or in periphery) of these outfits.
18:00 asciilifeform and not only technical (attourneys, misc.paper-pushers, etc)
18:01 * asciilifeform escaped
18:03 signpost upstack, why are the symbolics assets needed?
18:03 * signpost not sure who the customer for revived lispm would be.
18:03 asciilifeform separate q.
18:04 signpost yep, asking, rather than implying not.
18:04 asciilifeform the market for 'softs that actually work' aint quite 0.
18:04 asciilifeform (e.g. wolfram turns a profit, somehow)
18:05 signpost (I'm over here fiddling with a linux distro based upon V, so "market depth" doesn't often matter to me)
18:05 asciilifeform right but in re hypothetical 'couldja knock on mallery's door and not have the dogs set on you if come in w/ correct offer'
18:06 signpost depends, he might be the man that enjoys being buried with the schematic for warp drive, rather than seeing it used.
18:06 signpost these should probably be identified and fixed as early in development as possible.
18:07 * signpost has a hard time seeing the light between this and suicidality.
18:07 asciilifeform most likely, simply reich-designated undertaker for 'things that oughta stay buried'
18:07 signpost reich's also suicidal.
18:07 * signpost has been grunting about repairing the concept "self" for this reason.
18:09 signpost heh, on this subject, they're having the Navy guy with "mass reduction device" patents do podcast tours now.
18:09 verisimilitude What's wrong with being suicidal and simply not doing it?
18:10 signpost I've said, at length, but don't care to convince you.
18:10 verisimilitude We don't live in a world particularly worth living in.
18:11 verisimilitude Link me to the logs, then.
18:11 signpost http://trinque.org/2022/03/31/deadlock/
18:12 * signpost will be writing on this subject on an ongoing basis.
18:12 signpost one doesn't convince another to live. it cannot be an ethical question.
18:12 signpost *if* one wants to live, *then* from that higher things can be built.
18:13 signpost *I* want to live. If you don't, move out of the way.
18:14 asciilifeform afaik there's no shortage of either wagner or cyanide
18:14 phf you always have stratification in perspective. when you needed men to keep living to build cathedral you told them that if they offed themselves god would be mad, by framing it as an ethical question
18:15 * asciilifeform not convinced this ever made a 'mass' diff., rather than at edge cases
18:15 verisimilitude I stay alive for three reasons: to learn more about what interests me, to give form to more ideas I've had, and because I'm just going to die anyway.
18:15 signpost convincing men to stay alive is only required if their lives are so wretched their bodies beg otherwise.
18:16 verisimilitude I disagree.
18:16 signpost I was replying to phf primarily.
18:17 signpost but go ahead and disagree with more words, if you like.
18:19 phf asciilifeform: see i think that this kind of stuff makes /all/ the difference. but that's because i'm a strong believer in social learning, i think e.g. bullying is a degenerate case of some kind of teacher/learning/bonding experience. i've experienced it in it's positive form growing up (everyone did) in the form of "don't do that, that's gay" or "why don't you do that, you some kind of girl" etc.
18:20 asciilifeform phf: a, of course makes a diff. simply not convinced that 'serfs would've offed selves en masse if not for priest'
18:21 signpost can hold one's breath until passing out, then breathing resumes.
18:22 phf mass diff is made at graph nodes cases where "has to overcome" "was at rope but jesus spoke to me" etc. i mean they are kind of larp tropes in u.s. now, because only junkies and church cucks whos wife got pregnant by a black dude on a mission to haiti "overcome", but certainly was a useful piece of "brain override physiciology" when such override was needed
18:22 signpost the thing already wants to live. the urge for the bundle of words between the ears to resist this itself admits which came first.
18:23 phf signpost: i wish your life upon all my friends and relatives! :)
18:23 signpost hey man, I've held the gun too.
18:23 signpost the urge to put it back down taught me a lot.
18:23 * signpost grants sometimes that urge doesn't come.
18:23 * asciilifeform recalls signpost's piece re subj
18:26 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093544 << expect that there'll be over9000 of these coming outta the woodwork as reich proceeds on collapse path. similarly to the 'phree oil from rocks' 'witch' in zimbabwe, the 'psychics' sponsored by eltsin, etc
18:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 14:08:05 signpost: heh, on this subject, they're having the Navy guy with "mass reduction device" patents do podcast tours now.
18:38 signpost asciilifeform: yep, seems like further attempt to sow fear in adversaries with the nimitz episode. yawn.
18:39 signpost phf: jesus isn't speaking there; those are voices of admonition stored in specific interactions with other real meat.
18:40 * signpost doesn't give much of a shit which magic words are used.
18:40 signpost "bud, you may be severely unhealthy right now, but the superorganism comprised of us-and-you would be worse off without you"
18:40 signpost this is nature speaking.
18:41 * signpost drives at that the superorganism is a much more defensible self than one isolated meatsack.
18:42 signpost one can take it further, but it'd be a start.
18:42 phf signpost: yes, but that's both self evident and useless, imho. unless prepared to jump start society on nature speaking, build a couple of hundred years of collective lore around it, your whatever new perspective will lack necessary conginitive weight. proverbial atheists in foxholes
18:43 * signpost excuses himself for not using more traditional tautologies!
18:43 signpost :D
18:43 signpost those broke, I'm not going back to them.
18:44 signpost anyway the project isn't "pls believe this now", it's this was always the case.
18:45 phf signpost: i understand you, but can you restate what i said in your own terms to help me make sure that you understand me
18:45 asciilifeform imho aint useless to understand old, broken ecologies, even if not even over9000 divisions of freshly-landed martians could possibly 'fix'
18:46 signpost phf: I take you to mean that I'm proposing a new way of thought; whereas I'm drawing upon a few hundred years of philosophy that preceded me.
18:46 signpost and mostly wondering when the rest are going to also read.
18:46 phf nah, no that's not what i'm talking about
18:47 phf let me restate
18:50 signpost "the barrier to your way of thinking is that european minds are filled with the jungian archetypes generated by their long history, and stating things in sterile philosophical language will not have the same impact as using the language that's already there" ?
18:50 signpost with this I'd not disagree at all.
18:50 signpost in the limit the thread here's about "christ consciousness"
18:50 phf yes, thank you :) i was struggling with reexpressing it myself, and this was best
18:54 * signpost had a paragraph in the post re: nietzsche's ideal "caesar with the soul of christ" but pulled out for another grunting session.
18:54 asciilifeform 'ideal fish is a sausage'
18:54 phf christ being the personification of the voice of your buddies is great, but better if also 100 stories about somebody being in your situation and actually listening to that voice
18:55 * signpost not opposed to confucianism for the masses, zen for the rest.
18:55 signpost but it avoids answering asciilifeform's question
18:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-05 21:55:08 asciilifeform: ... as otherwise 'the swine will overconsume'. but is bulk of bipeds necessarily swine ? imho unknown
18:56 signpost asciilifeform: I believe what was being said is that man severed himself.
18:56 signpost but nietzsche's prone to extremes.
18:57 verisimilitude The egregore I mentioned earlier comes to mind.
18:57 verisimilitude Everyone should have one.
18:58 signpost verisimilitude: intentionally creating shared thoughtforms is interesting; the question is where do you stand when you're designing them.
18:59 verisimilitude I didn't design mine, at least not at first. I found it in the anonymous morass.
19:00 verisimilitude It's similar to how I wound up here, actually.
19:00 verisimilitude Similar people find each other through the Internet, without necessarily trying.
19:08 * asciilifeform suspects substantial 'dark matter' over9000 folx who find nuffin
19:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093579 << reich excelled at the job of disconnecting as many as possible from meat superorganism.
19:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 14:40:55 signpost: drives at that the superorganism is a much more defensible self than one isolated meatsack.
19:14 asciilifeform i.e. phf's observation -- who still connected to 'a whole' ? (aside from lizards & sublizards ...) -- mostly folx at the margins of printing press system.
19:14 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 14:21:31 phf: mass diff is made at graph nodes cases where "has to overcome" "was at rope but jesus spoke to me" etc. i mean they are kind of larp tropes in u.s. now, because only junkies and church cucks whos wife got pregnant by a black dude on a mission to haiti "overcome", but certainly was a useful piece of "brain override physiciology" when such override was needed
19:14 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 13:38:56 phf: i think mallory is the reason neither you nor signpost like horses, kek. man is an "avid skier" of the brandy at a lodge in aspen type, carrier apparatchik, living out his last days by way of his class. why do anything with symbolics assets when you can just feel self important by owning it, in that respect no different from a jade jewelry box from the orient, or a lion's head over a mantel
19:15 verisimilitude The egregore loosely connects me to others, but without much in the way of that manner of action.
19:15 asciilifeform e.g. the mexicans -- a++ connected.
19:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 13:17:02 asciilifeform: lives near a great many of these, they openly fly mexican, salvadorean, etc. flags, raise chickens, have mega-parties w/ over9000 relatives, won't hear any english spoken when walking by
19:16 asciilifeform verisimilitude: that kinda 'connect' has same relation to the real thing as 'world of tanks' to actual battle of kursk.
19:16 verisimilitude Sure, but it's what I've got.
19:17 asciilifeform imho nuffin wrong w/ 'i've no water on this boat, salt sea water is what i've got' so long as you know not to drink it.
19:18 verisimilitude I'd probably be considered to be drinking sea water, then.
19:23 asciilifeform ftr asciilifeform has nuffin against idea of renting horse, boat, mig, for weekend; but doing so aint gonna make you part of the 'set', is the important thing
19:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-04-22 18:13:08 gregorynyssa: the central aim of British upper-class boarding schools is to teach such traditions, principles, and manners as to promote solidarity among the upper class.
19:24 asciilifeform ( even if you can spare the dough to do it w/ regularity )
19:25 asciilifeform it's a social filter, but there are other filters in place.
19:27 * asciilifeform recalls tales of e.g. trump being snubbed by 'golf set' even tho the latter playing on his very own golf resorts, lol
19:27 phf asciilifeform: this is like some kind of twitch i get from everyone i talk on subj about, and yours is just the most intelligent. never the less it is functionality equivalent to sitcking your pinky out and going "ooooouh, i see you're into hooooses, i have some hoooses at my estaaaate". the variation on which i've heard a bunch.
19:29 asciilifeform phf: it's sorta how a programmer can buy e.g. porche, on credit, but it similarly won't do anyffin outside of own head. if you like big motors, yes, buy it, so long as have realistic expectations
19:29 phf why does it have to be about present day eloi at all? i don't have access to the real deal so can't argue how much of a complete human being they are. my point is entirely unrelated
19:29 asciilifeform phf: elaborate ?
19:30 * asciilifeform has 0 against 'anachronism' hobbies, either, either horse in particular or in general. knows various folx who partake.
19:30 verisimilitude I'm a complete human whether anyone agrees or not; this isn't something one gets from society in all cases.
19:30 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the obv problem is that this is a reliable recipe for disappearing up own arse
19:31 verisimilitude Well, better mine than someone else's.
19:31 asciilifeform ( this dun require mp's budget -- folx do it all the time on 0$ )
19:31 asciilifeform lol
19:32 signpost might be comforting to adjust oneself to imposed isolation, but we're not solitary animals.
19:32 asciilifeform ^
19:32 signpost which part of the language I'm using did I invent?
19:32 verisimilitude Well, look at how asciilifeform writes.
19:33 signpost you should probably say what your interpretation of his writing is.
19:33 verisimilitude Hermits have always existed. I'm a naturally-occuring hermit.
19:33 * signpost suspects the traffic to his www suggests otherwise than hermitage.
19:34 verisimilitude Well, naturally-occurring.
19:34 asciilifeform there's historically such a thing as a hermit, but most folx who advertise selves as 'hermit' today are in fact closer to prisoners in solitary
19:34 verisimilitude Historically, hermits did write, and were visited for wisdom.
19:34 asciilifeform performing gymnastics to convince self 'well, i'ma hermit...'
19:35 signpost verisimilitude: why take these visits, if not a social animal?
19:35 verisimilitude Read my sentence again.
19:35 asciilifeform to have some kinda sporting chance at getting out, prisoner 1st has to understand that he's in the 4 walls on someone else's will, not own
19:36 asciilifeform ( likely enuff still won't see 'out'. but at least can stop identifying self w/ prison )
19:36 signpost verisimilitude: eh, no. say your interpretation of the circumstances. I'm not supplying the effort to infer for free.
19:37 verisimilitude Historically, hermits did write, and WERE VISITED (passive) for wisdom.
19:37 signpost and they opened the door why?
19:37 verisimilitude They didn't mind, apparently.
19:38 signpost see, in person, one can't be so coy when they don't want to walk the path.
19:38 signpost this is the problem with using IRC as a medium to assemble a superorganism.
19:38 * asciilifeform intensely allergic to 'coy', sees as festering wound symptom of folx who aint straight w/ ~self~, not even to speak of others
19:38 verisimilitude We live in a world allowing for contact without presence, asciilifeform; this certainly dilutes hermitage to a degree.
19:39 verisimilitude I'm not being coy.
19:39 verisimilitude I'm just like this in-person.
19:40 asciilifeform verisimilitude: concretely, imho verisimilitude not fits offered portrait 'hermit' at all -- i.e. not waits for passers-by to knock on door, walks around offering links to his www in forums, #a, etc. asciilifeform similarly, would be disingenuous if claimed to 'hermit'
19:41 asciilifeform if must pick a historical flavour, say yer a 'dervish', for instance.
19:41 verisimilitude That's a fair point.
19:41 asciilifeform but a hermit is sumthing quite else
19:41 verisimilitude Physically, I'm a hermit, but that's something different.
19:42 asciilifeform or e.g 'marooned' sailor
19:42 phf verisimilitude: i believe the correct term is hikikomori
19:42 asciilifeform yer marooned, verisimilitude
19:42 asciilifeform asciilifeform also to an extend marooned
19:42 asciilifeform aint quite same thing as hermit.
19:42 verisimilitude I wasn't going to use the word, but sure, phf.
19:43 asciilifeform e.g. mp couldn't ever shuddup re 'not all thinking people are hiki' etc. ad nauseum. but is factual
19:44 asciilifeform folx who marooned longenuff, historically, not always wanted back to shore.
19:44 asciilifeform eventually the req'd parts of yer brain atrophy.
19:45 phf asciilifeform: the discovery of the virtues of horse riding was accidental for me, and why virtue is worthwhile point. it's hard for me to explore that point without referencing aristocracy, because literature. if i was mongol probably would talk about the khaganate. the behaviors of modern eloi is not germane to this point, but more it's a distraction, a kind of easy dismissal.
19:46 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform doesn't dismiss : is likely subcase of 'virtues of cement mixing' & similar
19:46 asciilifeform ( & of many other things 'you can't do from a bash prompt' )
19:48 asciilifeform the assoc. w/ 'aristos' is from the fact of 'high pilotage' horseplay being a resource-intensive affair, and largely exclusive w/ growing up 'working for living'. 'social filter'.
19:48 asciilifeform today's direct equiv., suspect, aint horse racing, but paul allen's mig
19:48 phf til that polo keeps 3-4 replacement horses in rotation per player, etc.
19:49 asciilifeform and they gotta be fed, combed, medicated, etc yea
19:49 asciilifeform exercised.
19:49 * signpost experience of horses was being shit-tested by a quarterhorse while trimming beneath the fence on 130acre
19:49 * asciilifeform recalls similar findings when considered to buy 'cessna'
19:49 signpost wasn't even a bad experience, befriended the fucker, more or less.
19:50 asciilifeform 'yea, plebe, you can buy it, but can you afford to feed it'
19:50 * signpost was about 10, would jump on his back and cling for dear life, peckerhead would run full speed and then stop to try and throw me.
19:52 signpost at some point I had quarterhorse, asshole goat, and once-injured adopted turkey in his entourage.
19:52 signpost *my
19:53 phf signpost: an older lady from the area we know had a morgan growing up, would ride it to school, to store, up the trails, to pub when she got older, etc. not so long ago, but a different time now
19:53 phf but yeah "covered in scratches and bruises from falling off or getting thrown all the time"
19:55 * signpost didn't love the drugery of it, and was living with folks that saw drudgery as virtuous in itself, but the befriending animals was alright.
19:56 * asciilifeform a++ into 'befriend animal', but aint aboutta horse, elephant, camel, other critters who demand acres, stablehands
19:56 signpost nah, that readily consumes all cycles, and there are better vehicles.
19:57 asciilifeform to keepr even dog , in city, imho is cruel
19:57 phf signpost: protestant tradition is entirely alien to me, in fact grew up with books with protestants were the bad guys (dumas, etc.)
19:57 signpost place in question was a break-even-at-best cattle ranch.
19:57 signpost phf: I rejected it quite early, went to live with dad.
19:58 * asciilifeform recalls in a memoir -- kazahs keeping camels in flats, in city, and feeding'em from dumpsters
19:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-06 20:39:25 asciilifeform: phf, signpost : lulzy re gourd. somehow forgot that thrd. ( subj is in fact mentioned in an underground orcish classic, 'notes of an undisciplined officer', re: kazahs )
19:58 phf in fact the vvitch (2015 robert eggers movie) is i think a pretty good picture of how outsiders see protestants
19:58 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-12-07#1579202 << infuriating abuse.
19:58 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-12-07 trinque: knows a person who owns a weimaraner, thing paces in her back yard back and forth between back door and window so much there's no grass in the path, has various other compulsions
19:59 signpost phf: given my weird life, was also baptized catholic.
19:59 * asciilifeform recalls, italians, aha
20:01 signpost ah yeah, this movie was a decent depiction. thin veneer of religion atop animal brutality required to turn the gears of a subsistence life.
20:02 signpost folks in my case returned to this, successfully even.
20:04 asciilifeform signpost: some required, some not, but rather a 'prionic' contagious degeneracy
20:05 asciilifeform ( e.g. from reign of charlamagne to shortly before publication of 'malleus' (instotoris's, not asciilifeform's, lol) 'witch hunt' ~wasn't a thing in europe )
20:05 asciilifeform *institoris
20:08 phf i am ftr not strongly opposed to it. my only objection that it's applied so inconsistently. e.g. i don't know any religious group, not even the amish, that oppose the import of chinese goods on religious grounds, but why not? ought to be some kind of injunction on use of good manifactured in a goodless country by slave labour.
20:09 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-01#1068412
20:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-01 13:19:47 signpost: this is the truly heretical thing about american protestantism, that it grants peasants the sovereign voice so they can masturbate with it.
20:10 phf i think my main real objection to christianity at this point is that it's so limp wristed and boring. (u.s. brand anyway) and the two go hand in hand. jesus saved me from opiods so i can engage in every other form of benign sinful behavior
20:10 phf signpost: yeah there you go
20:11 * signpost agrees.
20:11 verisimilitude I didn't particularly enjoy ``Brave New World'', but it's an example of how a bad society needn't die; it can instead continue indefinitely.
20:12 verisimilitude So sure, there may be a return to tradition, in the savage reservations.
~ 31 minutes ~
20:44 asciilifeform 'indefinitely' is a tall order.
20:44 asciilifeform 'wage of sin -- death'(tm)(r)
20:46 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093713 << hard 'nopes' on 'dependence on heathen goods' tend to succumb to n yrs of contact. afaik not even the starovers still 'mno we won't use yer tea kettle, we have this one from 1700s that still worx'
20:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 16:07:01 phf: i am ftr not strongly opposed to it. my only objection that it's applied so inconsistently. e.g. i don't know any religious group, not even the amish, that oppose the import of chinese goods on religious grounds, but why not? ought to be some kind of injunction on use of good manifactured in a goodless country by slave labour.
20:48 asciilifeform i.e. when question comes to matters of subsistence, people behave amoebically. (and the occasional specimen who does not, and 'dies hero', doesn't 'make the weather')
20:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-06 18:58:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-06#1082669 << 'people' who behave amoebically (i.e. follow gradient of 'tastier right there right now'). and see also.
20:49 asciilifeform occasionally whole 'opera' plays out rather quickly. i.e. iirc the yanomami indians in amazon , happily accepted cargo of shotguns & shells in '70s , for whatever (furs? dun recall) trade . and not much heard from'em since.
20:50 asciilifeform the amish, starovers, et al -- afaik still there, at least 'in body' and driving john deere tractors..
20:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093716 << observe, jizzus mostly not saved'em from opium; and when 'saved', saved'em for mcd, buying refrigerator on layaway at 40% interest, iraq, etc
20:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 16:09:33 phf: i think my main real objection to christianity at this point is that it's so limp wristed and boring. (u.s. brand anyway) and the two go hand in hand. jesus saved me from opiods so i can engage in every other form of benign sinful behavior
20:52 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-09-03 ascii_field: they happily send their sons to army so they can 'die for a fat bitch's right to marry her dog'
20:53 phf asciilifeform: that is literally that i said
20:53 asciilifeform right, not disagreeing
20:54 asciilifeform illustrating.
20:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093720 << to date nobody's succeeded in setting up so that tradition 'passes the berlin wall test'.
20:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-07 16:11:32 verisimilitude: So sure, there may be a return to tradition, in the savage reservations.
20:55 asciilifeform i.e. to keep the amoebas from climbing the immediate gradient.
20:56 asciilifeform see e.g. phf's earlier note.
20:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 21:56:23 phf: heard a joke, "it took medvedev 10 years to build skolkovo (a kind of technopark dev shop area in ru), and only a week for putin to turn yerevan into silicon valley"
20:56 asciilifeform ( or mp's )
20:56 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-06-12 mircea_popescu: it was utterly the case of eg ro revolution. none of the people there wanted "freedom". they were literally pissed off they can't drive over to austrian border and load up the car at the w/e discount shop.
20:58 asciilifeform the amish simply started w/ fatter margin, and took longer than e.g. east berliners.
20:58 asciilifeform when, say, north kr is popped, prolly will cocacolize within week.
20:59 asciilifeform as asciilifeform understands, atm in ru a lackluster experiment in 'decocacolization', and aint going too well
20:59 asciilifeform afaik nobody's run the process in reverse, yet, and no one knows precisely how
20:59 verisimilitude ``Fat man handcuffs himself to closing McDonald's.''
21:00 asciilifeform that was 1 fat tard, and people laff; the 1e6 software people who still wanna get paid, more dire
21:00 phf asciilifeform: i'll take a page from verisimilitude book and say that i reject the picture of the world you're painting. on blind faith and with no supporting argument. i simply do not accept that the entropy wins :)
21:01 asciilifeform phf: the folx who threw in the towel and 'entropy wins' have already wagnered & cyanided, asciilifeform aint there
21:01 asciilifeform but gotta note that there's an actual, serious ecological problem in there, that dun goaway when ignored
21:01 phf was going to say something about accidental drowning
21:02 asciilifeform lolheh
21:03 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform's pov re: 'try' summarized ftr. )
21:03 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
21:03 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-31 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
21:03 asciilifeform similarly 'on faith and with no...'
21:04 * asciilifeform must bbl
~ 49 minutes ~
21:54 mangol http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093563 << afaict inertia is the decisive quality in most people. explains why people don't kill themselves, and countless other things.
21:54 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-07 18:20:14 asciilifeform: phf: a, of course makes a diff. simply not convinced that 'serfs would've offed selves en masse if not for priest'
21:55 mangol inertia is a more reliable, and a more parsimonious explanation, than religion
21:57 mangol apropos obligatory recent Louis CK
22:04 mangol http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093600 << most people probably don't cause much trouble to their neighbors. the problem is at a higher level: most groups would overtake a neighboring group.
22:04 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-07 18:55:44 signpost: but it avoids answering asciilifeform's question
22:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-05 21:55:08 asciilifeform: ... as otherwise 'the swine will overconsume'. but is bulk of bipeds necessarily swine ? imho unknown
22:05 mangol (as far as building a society is concerned, that's the right benchmark imho. if someone doesn't cause trouble, what harm in keeping them? especially if inter-group competition is genetically programmed, and the guy is in your group)
22:08 signpost mangol: that inertia keeps the immiserated alive, sure.
22:08 signpost *immiserated and otherwise of astonishing wealth compared to most of human history.
22:09 mangol signpost: also apropos, you've probably read nietzsche's thoughts on positive suicide (he called it "choosing your own time of death" iirc)
22:09 mangol the idea that people should live as long as possible is at the root of much of the sickness in our culture
22:09 signpost yep, but I don't need such defiance before nature to scare myself awake.
22:09 signpost I agree with that muc.
22:09 signpost *much
22:10 mangol i still don't understand why the people with the most content-free lives are the most frightened of losing them
22:10 signpost less range of experience makes lesser pains more frightening.
22:11 * signpost brb, cat politely informs me that I've forgotten to fill a bowl.
22:13 mangol iron claw in a velvet paw
22:15 signpost alrighty, seems pretty reasonable for content-free lives to fear death.
22:15 signpost they wasted it.
22:16 mangol wouldn't awareness of the waste make life even more painful, and thus death an even bigger relief?
22:16 phf we were talking about how collective condemnation prevents suicide at end nodes, not about why the whole graph holds
22:17 signpost mangol: no, relief assumes death's some kind of sleep you can know you're having.
22:18 phf perchance to dream
22:18 * signpost reconciles to lights-out. imagine how happy I'll be when I'm wrong.
22:19 * asciilifeform cites the old saw where 'i have 1e10y of practice being dead, wasn't so bad'
22:20 mangol if you buy into the idea that consciousness is imperishable, it's not clear what death even is. how is it different from life?
22:21 * asciilifeform leaves that one to the believers
22:21 mangol (i buy into the idea on logical grounds)
22:21 mangol same thing as dream vs reality. reality is a dream from which you haven't woken up yet
22:22 mangol i once or twice had a nested dream
22:22 signpost all I have evidence for is the hard stop, so I have to pass over the rest in silence.
22:23 mangol what's the hard stop?
22:23 signpost dying.
22:23 asciilifeform could be optimistic, incidentally. asciilifeform for instance aint sure that he 'conscious' for most of adult life.
22:24 mangol it may be that people accustomed to a different worldview instinctively assume a different definition of consciousness
22:24 signpost asciilifeform: seems a blanket definition to cover things not understood.
22:25 asciilifeform signpost: purely subjective note
22:25 mangol asciilifeform: you said something about "consciousness is a phlogiston" in logs some time. what does that mean?
22:26 mangol phlogiston = hypothetical substance that causes fire?
22:26 * asciilifeform again subjectively, was unemployed for ~yr >decade ago, and felt 'awake!', 'like when was 10yo', for some % of it, and not again since
22:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-04 23:08:39 signpost: felt UTTERLY AWAKE.
22:28 asciilifeform mangol: aha
22:29 asciilifeform speaking, again, of the subjective sensation of 'alive', the kind most folx feel lack of when e.g. not slept for week
22:30 asciilifeform american 'mp' b.frankling likely meant sumthing in that vein when wrote 'most folx die at 30 but for some reason not buried till 70'
22:30 asciilifeform *franklin
22:31 * signpost would agree that whether or not there's such a thing as self-awareness, the meat robot's often happy to operate without it.
22:31 asciilifeform 'happy' aint the word necessarily, but 'will operate' to some spec
22:32 verisimilitude Automatic computing proves many tasks require no intelligence.
22:32 mangol lol at franklin. nowadays would be "hate speech", deplatformed.
22:32 asciilifeform verisimilitude: a brick also reqs 0 'intelligence' to fall, lol
22:32 verisimilitude I don't fear death, because it just means the misery will end at some point.
22:32 * signpost waits for someone to show him the non-automaton part of himself
22:33 signpost wait, I just did it. made a free choice right... here.
22:33 asciilifeform lol
22:33 verisimilitude I recommend signpost mail me his head in a box, and I'll get right to it.
22:33 signpost chortle
22:33 mangol verisimilitude: i don't undertand why all miserable people don't feel like you
22:33 signpost see over text you folks were at least spared the fart that usually accompanies this line.
22:33 signpost it's not all bad
22:34 asciilifeform meanwhile in fishwraps, 'Airline explains why it's replacing planes with buses'
22:35 verisimilitude Perhaps stupidity be the reason, mangol.
22:35 signpost asciilifeform: soon, those sad things where the passengers all pedal and drink swill.
22:35 asciilifeform but pay like to plane.
22:35 mangol asciilifeform: not from The Onion or Babylon Bee?
22:36 asciilifeform mangol: nope
22:36 asciilifeform 'crossed parody horizon'
22:37 mangol we're past the vanishing point
22:37 asciilifeform loong ago
22:37 mangol a little late to the party, they had "flying" buses in the sixties
22:37 mangol "Furthur", etc.
22:37 asciilifeform mangol: in what sense 'flying' ?
22:37 mangol lol
22:38 asciilifeform ( occasional bus 'flies' when off cliff but assuming some other sense ? )
22:38 mangol in the sense of consciousness, where you truly feel alive. more than an airline flight, at any rate
22:38 mangol wiki
22:39 asciilifeform a, lsd bus
22:39 * asciilifeform not ridden
22:40 vex american could depressurize the bus, so the little packet of pringles swells up like in the air
22:40 asciilifeform or make folx stand for 4h in 'seekoority' arse search queue
22:40 asciilifeform to 'feel like airline'
22:40 * asciilifeform assumed this is already included..
22:41 signpost seems like this is "behind security" on both ends?
22:42 mangol a higher-order parody horizon will be crossed when they have airport security at the grocery store checkout
22:43 asciilifeform hey, standing in line at airport only to find bus waiting in place of plane, aint so diff from other modern-day switcheroos, e.g. where you think yer buying a $device but actually 'subscription to license' etc
22:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-24 13:01:11 asciilifeform: still lulzy tesla-style 'you'll own nuffin and be happy'(tm)(r)(c) scamola
22:43 mangol recursive parody horizons, that sounds like it should be a borges story
22:44 verisimilitude So, first pronouns are attacked, then ``woman'', and now ``flight''.
22:44 asciilifeform before long, 'i wanna fly on a plane that actually leaves the ground' will be in same nuthouse as e.g. asciilifeform's 'i'd like a non-mdf furniture'
22:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-15 16:59:16 asciilifeform: 'actual' as in not mdf/particleboard/whatever other names ersatz wood goes by.
22:44 signpost at least meaning collapse is funny.
22:44 mangol lol
22:44 mangol the self esteem movement for vehicles
22:45 signpost how long before they have some poor syrian dude ride in the shit tank of the bus to do terrorisms on the next plane?
22:45 asciilifeform it's 1 of the few ways to 'make megabux' nao -- take $thing and cheapen it into $substitute, then set up so that 'only terrorists!11' would demand the orig. $thing
22:46 asciilifeform i.e. 'termiting'
22:48 mangol imho one of the funniest things about the decline is how eagerly the hard left anarchists and post-hippies will act as megacorp thugs, given a chance to virtue signal
22:49 asciilifeform mangol: 1 possible mechanism
22:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 16:22:27 asciilifeform: the captives are captive anyway; some % of 'aspirational class' suck davos cock eagerly, on acct of some oddball stockholm syndrome where they get to feel 'as if on soros's yacht' while doing so
22:49 asciilifeform see also e.g. kapos in concentration camps
22:50 signpost a lot of these are mentally ill, eager for any reason to smash shit.
22:50 asciilifeform ( quite often outdid the germans by long shot )
22:50 signpost they're animals.
22:51 signpost mangol: in e.g. portland, there's no coherent political ideology. punks in the street are self-selected mutants with no vitamin d and way too much weed.
22:52 signpost the arson and smashing are burning off base anxiety.
22:53 mangol ^ all are reasonable theories
22:53 asciilifeform for over9000 folx, no need for 'ideology' beyond basic formula 'psst, guess who's the reason you aint on a yacht? ~that~ guy over ~there~. go smash'
22:54 mangol substitute 'yacht' for social status in the abstract, and that's it
22:54 signpost yep, "why do I hate myself"
22:55 mangol for middle class students, it's often simply about being utterly useless to the world and/or ignored by it
22:55 signpost I mean, many of these aren't middle class
22:55 mangol for aspirational 15%, tfw no yacht invitation
22:55 signpost lots of them fell out of the service industry in covid
22:55 mangol for poor people, probably more directly about bare sustenance
22:55 signpost they were doing coke to get through shifts and smoking weed to get 6hrs sleep.
22:56 mangol yep
22:56 asciilifeform characteristically, and in line w/ historical norm, the angriest folx aint the 'how do i make rent' but the 'grandfather had a farm, father had a house, i have 200k$ 'college' debt' people
22:56 signpost defo newly poor.
22:57 signpost with 100% knowledge that grandfather's mechanism was destroyed.
22:57 signpost makes me want to reword. if it's ideology, it's ideology of the damned, with no sense that things could get better.
22:57 signpost "you're coming with me, bitch"
22:58 asciilifeform reich quite effective at convincing'em that 'it simply Happened, for Reasons'
22:58 mangol yep - a lot of the "cultured" leftists -- totally cool that there's an elite clubhouse, but seething that this iteration of the racket won't let me in
22:59 mangol reich convinced me for a long time that Things are Complicated (TM)
22:59 asciilifeform 'stole the sense of having been stolen from'(tm)(r)(mp)
22:59 verisimilitude Why ``cultured'' and not ``leftists''?
22:59 asciilifeform mangol: rather like how in particular case of softwarism, 'see, there's no such thing as correct proggy, because Things Are Complicated dontchaknow'
23:00 verisimilitude My heart rate just rose a little, asciilifeform.
23:00 mangol asciilifeform: yep. academia = Things Are Complicated (fine print: but you should do as i say anyway -- hire me as a consultant for details) over9k times
23:01 asciilifeform mangol: oblig
23:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 20:30:08 asciilifeform: there's old joak where frogs hire a consultant, to tell'em 'how do we avoid being eaten'. owl consultant goes to desk, thinks, next day comes back w/ fat bill and answer. 'become hedgehogs'. frogs: 'how do we become hedgehogs?' owl -- 'i'm a strategic consultant, not a tactical one'
23:01 signpost lol
23:03 mangol http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093884 << cultured leftists are the subspecies in the arts and employed in academia. there are still communities where it's high status to be uncultured
23:03 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-07 22:59:24 verisimilitude: Why ``cultured'' and not ``leftists''?
23:05 asciilifeform mangol: could ask 'in what sense these cultured'
23:05 mangol cultured leftists' strategy is to rise in the ranks as individuals, uncultured to rise as a group (e.g. larp of traditional class struggle)
23:05 asciilifeform typically their 'cultured' has same relation to the genuine article as mdf has to wood
23:06 mangol asciilifeform: in the sense of fake sophistication. big words, money, fame.
23:06 asciilifeform most rank&file nyt victims innocent of either dough or fame
23:07 asciilifeform (in fact typically 1e6 or moar $ in the hole)
23:07 asciilifeform err, 1e5
23:08 mangol but given the impression that money and fame are tantalizingly within reach
23:09 mangol reich's carrot dangling provess leaves nothing to be desired
23:09 * asciilifeform aint convinced that even the dimmest are all that convinced of reality of 'the carrot'
23:09 asciilifeform is the focus of over9000 religious rituals, yes
23:09 mangol convinced on a behavioral level is what counts
23:09 asciilifeform but how much faith? nfi
23:09 mangol rituals - exactly
23:09 mangol behaviorism is alive and well
23:10 asciilifeform much of the behaviour is ritualistic, rather than necessarily result of faith
23:10 mangol one could even argue that ritual is a kind of faith of the body
23:10 mangol and as such, could be more sincere than most faith of the mind
23:11 mangol banality is usually sincere since it's so low status
23:11 signpost more/less what I meant about will to live.
23:12 mangol right on
23:12 signpost do "I" want to? the bundle of cultural narratives I'm hallucinating?
23:12 asciilifeform point being, that when stalin had to appoint a fellow to ring bell to ask audience to stop clapping, was not necessarily because ecstatic believers just couldnt get enuff of their joy
23:12 signpost no, the meat does, and I obey it on autopilot.
23:12 signpost I could defy this by killing myself, and I'd still be admitting it by the rebellion against.
23:12 mangol money and fame = high status, pursuit of same = low status. behavior sustained by elaborate machinery in the mind to fail to notice the difference
23:15 verisimilitude I want to share something which disgusted me.
23:15 verisimilitude would you say so called "influencer" / "creator" marketing is more valuable nowadays as a result? Getting people behind you who have a trusted audience seems like the only way to combat this problem, I just don't know that its a serviceable business per se?
23:16 phf what is that vex said, stop watching tv
23:16 asciilifeform verisimilitude: main victims of spam are the spammers
23:17 asciilifeform (who work to the bone, while hated by all, and when starve, replaced with next crop, who 'heard from friend of friend where Sure Profit...' )
23:17 verisimilitude That's fair enough, phf.
23:17 asciilifeform 'if yer eating it, it's For You'(tm)(r)(tlp)
23:17 mangol verisimilitude: i savor this New Cynicism of the hipsters. dropped the pretense of postmodern irony entirely.
23:18 vex verisimilitude also told me to put down the bottle. hard to wean of cheap thrills.
23:18 signpost most of the derps on that site are paid handsomely by ad money, or aspire to be.
23:18 verisimilitude It just reminded me of the importance of the WoT, since capitalists are motivated to poison every human relationship.
23:18 asciilifeform signpost: handful of kapos paid, others 'aspiring'
23:18 asciilifeform same mechanism as how 'judas goat' is used in slaughterhouse.
23:18 phf vex: i like my sins like my virtues, traditional
23:19 verisimilitude Look, if there were a Liveleak for programmers, I'd be watching that instead.
23:20 vex I've had what I assume is a similar why was I not informed? experience. I'd recently commissioned myself as master and commander of a modest sailing ship, and found myself in a state of perfect joy. I think I was almost able to utter those very words.
23:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-06 15:05:24 phf: i /know/ that i'm turning annoying about the whole horse thing, but i'd be honest, after the first few months of riding i had very much the feeling of "why was i not informed!"
23:20 mangol (somewhat earlier, the hipsters a movement called New Sincerity - that's how cynical that racket is)
23:20 asciilifeform oblig. 'adonis xiv'
23:20 signpost vex: hell that's nice to hear, man.
23:20 verisimilitude Sail safely, vex.
23:20 phf vex: awesome
23:20 vex almost like the ancients whisper "aha"
23:21 verisimilitude The Latin word for boat is NĀVIS and to sail is NĀVIGĀRE.
23:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: why the Ā's ?
23:22 signpost he's adding the long-vowel marks
23:22 asciilifeform i dunrecall seeing the linenoise barf on pompei stones
23:22 verisimilitude Yes.
23:22 signpost chortle
23:22 mangol the word "govern" - from Latin gubernare to steer, govern, from Greek kybernan
23:22 verisimilitude Occasionally, they did add marks, asciilifeform.
23:22 verisimilitude He who govers is GVBERNĀTOR, yes.
23:23 mangol the governator
23:23 asciilifeform губернатор
23:23 mangol they had one in california
23:23 signpost vex: named your ship?
23:23 mangol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Schwarzenegger
23:24 mangol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governator <-- better
23:24 vex It came with one signpost
23:24 phf apropos boat naming, will only be amusing to asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj-V-F9dfrE
23:24 verisimilitude What did the signpost say, then?
23:25 asciilifeform phf: timeless classic
23:25 * asciilifeform rewatched in fact recently
23:26 vex When looking at boats for sale, quite are few are `nope, not saying that on the radio'
23:26 asciilifeform ( for english folx, song from cult su cartoon. 'how you name the yacht, such it will sail.' init. they make it 'Победа', 'victory', then coupla letters fall off, get 'беда' -- 'calamity' )
23:28 mangol http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093920 << iirc "captive audience" is an established term of art as well
23:28 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-07 23:15:32 verisimilitude: would you say so called "influencer" / "creator" marketing is more valuable nowadays as a result? Getting people behind you who have a trusted audience seems like the only way to combat this problem, I just don't know that its a serviceable business per se?
23:32 mangol "According to a study of New York Times articles conducted by the Wharton Business School, the most compelling content created by the magazine were the pieces that evoked an emotional response."
23:34 verisimilitude Never forget that modern advertising can be traced to Freud.
23:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: moar proximately, goebbels
23:34 asciilifeform father of modern advertising.
23:36 verisimilitude No, Edward Bernays was Freud's nephew.
23:37 mangol there's even some philosophical wank about how advertising is good for you, since without it you wouldn't know how good it feels to desire some consumer product
23:38 asciilifeform heroin similarly, lol
23:38 mangol utilitarianism is an inexhaustible lulzcow
23:38 mangol one of those ideas that comes back every decade or few under a brand new identity
23:39 * asciilifeform finds e.g. old american ads often interesting -- 'who doesn't want a money mint in his basement. general electric furnace saves 80 cents a day or yer money back!' etc
23:40 asciilifeform used to be, fulla claims (tru or not -- but concrete)
23:40 mangol yeah. it's quite eye-opening
23:41 asciilifeform the ads in '70s-'80s enthusiast publications (e.g. 'scientific american' before plebification) also interesting, in different light
23:41 asciilifeform e.g.
23:42 asciilifeform ( wassat? subj )
23:42 mangol ah, the microwriter. was an informative post
23:43 asciilifeform was interesting to see ads for, e.g., 'trs-80', and over9000 similar but 100% forgotten micros
23:43 asciilifeform 0 resemblance to today's ipnoje ads etc
23:44 phf asciilifeform: speaking of ads, recently learned that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlAHU0Kk0vw is a true story, it's taken from golytsin's memoirs
23:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude i suspect would appreciate, how the people in these ads (when pictured people) look like people, rather than 'blm' poster
23:44 mangol can't take a C64 out to starbucks to hang out with spot on ethnic / gender diverse group of friends. could conveicably take a microwriter for hipster cred.
23:45 mangol (only one letter difference between "cred" and "credo")
23:46 asciilifeform phf: a++
23:47 vex what are they saying?
23:48 mangol obligatory David Mitchell rant about "passion" in ads
23:50 phf vex: it's an encounter between suvorov, count and a general, and yekaterina ii. the man was being unfashionably pious in his lent by refusing to eat and drink before the first star appeared in sky. the empress responded with a jest by awarding him one of the order sigil stars
23:50 asciilifeform vex: ad for (long-defunkt) ru bank 'imperial'. was gonna expand but phf ^ beat to it
23:51 asciilifeform 'give suvorov a star!'
23:51 vex many thanks good sirs
23:52 asciilifeform other memorable ads from epoch, for aficionados.
23:54 verisimilitude Yes, I'd rather see people in advertisements.
23:55 verisimilitude Plenty of advertisements nowadays are meant to demoralize in addition to other things.
23:56 verisimilitude Recall how an Apple advertisement had a mystery-meat child ask ``What's a computer?'' at the end, as if utter ignorance be desirable.
23:56 asciilifeform demoralize the demoralizable, troll the trollable
23:57 mangol one of the enduring archetypes in that vein is the "doofus dad"
23:57 verisimilitude Yes.
23:57 verisimilitude Paging adlai, how are the advertisements in the promised land?
23:58 vex https://www.clockworkpi.com/devterm anyone laid eyes on one of these?
23:58 * asciilifeform seen korean ads, and memorably bizarre -- e.g. 3d hot chix, rippling with sweat, swings fist towards viewer in a boxing ring. cut to photo of a pnoje.
23:59 mangol presumably fewer ads featuring mixed race families in .il
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