| 01:14 |
signpost |
adlai: imho new england's still plenty worthwhile. |
| 01:15 |
signpost |
boston's only grown, and many of the towns in its orbit are still worthwhile. |
| 01:15 |
adlai |
maybe if I get a righteous dose of the latest flu, I'll hallucinate the smell of New England autumn again. |
| 01:15 |
signpost |
not bad as far as hallucinations go |
| 01:16 |
signpost |
you spent time there? |
| 01:16 |
adlai |
so far the worst symptoms I've had were indistinguishable from regular "tell people I'm sick and let them figure out whether I'm euphemising". |
| 01:16 |
adlai |
yeah, I spent quite a while in NE. |
| 01:16 |
* |
signpost had the chest zaps subside. |
| 01:16 |
signpost |
ah, cool |
| 01:17 |
adlai |
possibly a majority of my running, even if you include exercising during military service afterwards. |
| 01:17 |
* |
adlai ran 'cross country', in boarding school, in new england. |
| 01:17 |
adlai |
so plenty of dead leaves |
| 01:18 |
* |
adlai can't recall whether signpost hails from tx originally? |
| 01:19 |
adlai |
fwiw, one -- and possibly only! -- time I encountered a texan irl, I asked the texan to sketch an outline of texas. |
| 01:20 |
adlai |
result -- and admirably, there was a result, as opposed to "fuck off, I can't draw to save my life" -- was recognizeably neither utah nor montana. |
| 01:21 |
signpost |
the funny thing is that texas is more a loose confederacy of city states than a whole. |
| 01:21 |
* |
adlai was inspired by "french schoolchildren learn to draw a hexagon before they learn to condescend at english speakers" |
| |
↖ |
| 01:21 |
* |
signpost lived here from early childhood, bounced around a few places prior |
| 01:22 |
adlai |
my suspicion re:NE is that living there as an adult will be much less insulated than boarding in a dormitory as a teenager. |
| 01:23 |
adlai |
e.g., nobody ever asked me if I was born in New England, outside of campus; and I doubt anyone asked me whether I was Jewish, with approximately one barbershop's worth of exceptions. |
| 01:25 |
signpost |
there are even pot shops now. |
| 01:25 |
signpost |
anyway, had no idea adlai spent time stateside |
| 01:26 |
adlai |
what, ya don't remember recurring "why are you attending scammer conferences in USGistan, adlai?" threads? |
| 01:27 |
adlai |
maybe those don't count as 'stateside';.. similar to getting passport stamped without exiting airport. |
| 01:28 |
* |
asciilifeform recalled |
| 01:28 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2016-11-08 adlai: i've yet to witness a student getting thrown out of a lecture at TAU (was done reasonably often by certain teachers at exeter), although - they often basically tell students to shut up and ask questions privately afterwards |
| 01:29 |
signpost |
the limits of my memory are not held as an example, lol |
| 01:29 |
adlai |
well asciilifeform does run NSA, so this is not surprising! |
| 01:29 |
* |
signpost also had several beers this afternoon with his other favorite j00 |
| |
↖ |
| 01:30 |
adlai |
could be interesting to apply advice given to IDF cadets, to the east coast of the USA. |
| 01:31 |
signpost |
which? |
| 01:31 |
adlai |
"go directly to one end of the nation; then, bus crawl to the other; if you still love your country, be glad you are serving it." |
| 01:31 |
adlai |
in israel, this exercise takes approximately two days. |
| 01:32 |
adlai |
slightly longer on greyhounds, obviously. |
| 01:32 |
* |
signpost is definitely setting off in an airstream to test this hypothesis in the next few years. |
| 01:32 |
adlai |
the whole point is being at ground level the entire time! |
| 01:32 |
signpost |
yep |
| 01:33 |
adlai |
even if you don't disbark to visit each place with its own zip code, you look out of windows at the same height as the post office. |
| 01:33 |
signpost |
the land currently occupied by the criminals in DC is often breathtakingly beautiful. |
| 01:33 |
* |
signpost imagines this is so for most occupied countries on earth. |
| 01:33 |
signpost |
otherwise why the hell did anyone stop there. |
| 01:33 |
adlai |
by 'airstream', do you refer to a specific model of bus or plane or thing? |
| 01:33 |
* |
adlai might have missed a reference here |
| 01:35 |
signpost |
they're a brand of aluminum camper trailer. |
| 01:35 |
adlai |
as for the location of the federal government, my impression was always that it was simply "what is median of ex-colonial coastline", rather than "walking distance from most beautiful plantation" |
| |
↖ |
| 01:35 |
adlai |
aha |
| 01:35 |
adlai |
that is probably a better way to visit america. |
| 01:36 |
signpost |
life permitting, would love to do the same in yurp |
| 01:36 |
* |
adlai has not encountered as much of a trailer culture in Israel, although there are trailers! simply, fewer people who live in them permanently, and fewer campgrounds, because... smaller total population. |
| 01:37 |
signpost |
right, it's a highway culture thing, I imagine. |
| 01:38 |
signpost |
new alliance with the arabs against iran eh? I imagine I'll be able to bum around the desert in what, 15-20yrs? |
| 01:38 |
signpost |
on either side, lol. |
| 01:39 |
* |
signpost would like to travel there too, if his empire hadn't preceeded him. |
| 01:41 |
* |
adlai still hopes that some sorta "eastasia has always been united against the martian/venusian/bugger invasion" will emerge |
| 01:42 |
adlai |
er, east, west, eur... you get the idea. |
| 01:42 |
adlai |
supposedly there was practical hope for "peace in the middle east!!!!!!" back when the cold war was still fresh and tepid. |
| 01:43 |
* |
adlai was not alive back then, only gossips. |
| 01:44 |
adlai |
tbh, if you have an american passport, and no other citizenship, you still can sanely visit Iran. |
| 01:44 |
adlai |
whenever I ask folks who specialise in this kind of adventure, about my case, they tell me that I can also sanely visit Iran, I'll simply have to get better at lying than telling the truth! |
| 01:45 |
adlai |
those folks have strange ideas of what sanity means. |
| 01:48 |
adlai |
the hip Israeli thing these days is to visit arabian gulf states, rather than persia. |
| 01:48 |
* |
adlai suspects he lacks the venture cheesiness connections to do this 'without army'. |
| 01:49 |
adlai |
i.e., I wouldn't get kidnapped, or anything so exciting... my visit would simply be more similar to visiting the USA for a bitcoin conference, on my own dime, than anything else. |
| 01:50 |
adlai |
in fact it would probably be quite similar to alf's visit to ro! |
| 01:50 |
adlai |
"I wish I could stay, without it costing me one bitcoin per week" |
| |
↖ |
| 01:52 |
signpost |
fine people and beautiful earth to be found in every place with an idiot's imaginary line drawn around. |
| 01:52 |
* |
signpost must bbl |
| 01:53 |
adlai |
ttyl! |
| 01:54 |
adlai |
asciilifeform: didja visit romania before starting to declare that the only thing less useful than bitcoin is the united states lollar? |
| |
↖ |
| 01:55 |
* |
adlai only recalls alf's commentaries about visiting romania for one of MP's conferences, well after "Bitcoin, by popular demand" |
| 01:59 |
adlai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092428 << ... wait a moment, where's the "not necessarily in that order" ? |
| 01:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 16:54:42 asciilifeform: 'The Bureau of Cyberspace and Digital Policy leads and coordinates the Department’s work on cyberspace and digital diplomacy to encourage responsible state behavior in cyberspace and advance policies that protect the integrity and security of the infrastructure of the Internet, serve U.S. interests, promote competitiveness, and uphold democratic values...' |
| 02:00 |
adlai |
if I am constitutional literalisting this correctly, this bureau must immediately be reported to whatever house handles Un-American Activities. |
| 02:02 |
* |
adlai has not heard of "DNA tests for citizenship" before, although the imaginary line is not far from this. |
| 02:03 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092561 << 2 voyages. in '14, '17 |
| 02:03 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 21:53:44 adlai: asciilifeform: didja visit romania before starting to declare that the only thing less useful than bitcoin is the united states lollar? |
| 02:03 |
adlai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092456 << was this hyperbole? |
| 02:03 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 18:56:13 verisimilitude: I don't see Israel having problems like this, and they get to have DNA tests for citizenship as well. |
| 02:04 |
adlai |
my understanding of the whole "prove you are Jewish, and you don't have to wait in line, outside the embassy, in another country, indefinitely" policy is that it's much more similar to "does another jew consider you a jew" than "please spit in dish and wait 15 minutes" |
| 02:05 |
* |
adlai never needed to prove this kind of hypothesis |
| 02:07 |
adlai |
Israel has plenty of non-jewish immigration, thanks to refugee situations; the pragmatic coping method employed by the government is to subsidize discharged soldiers working in jobs popular with refugees, to discourage refugees from remaining. |
| 02:07 |
* |
asciilifeform commented at length re '17 one, and summarized here |
| 02:07 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-29 22:04:36 asciilifeform: was never happier anywhere than in '17 in ro, but only brought enuff green for 2wks and after that had to go back to where one gets more |
| 02:07 |
adlai |
e.g., "you guarded empty land for three years? ok, keep guarding, except now farmer hates you if you fall asleep." |
| 02:09 |
adlai |
one if not the greatest of my innumerous mistakes was not getting such a job; subsidies only last for less than a year, after which, immigrants and refugees are preferred by the employers! |
| 02:09 |
adlai |
"why hire white boy, he will leave the moment he gets a better offer anywhere else" |
| 02:10 |
* |
adlai has also heard this logic cited as reason for demanding high salary in job interviews; "... if you demand a low salary, they don't knot what your competitors might bid" |
| 02:10 |
adlai |
s/your/their/ |
| 02:12 |
* |
adlai oughtta begin counting keystrokes, without discrimination |
| 02:12 |
adlai |
so far, I only tell myself to do this when using the typewriter. why!? |
| 02:14 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092557 << wasn't it ( sitting right here in usa actually costs asciilifeform considerably moar per diem ) |
| 02:14 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 21:49:57 adlai: "I wish I could stay, without it costing me one bitcoin per week" |
| 02:15 |
adlai |
do you compute forex torsion? |
| 02:16 |
asciilifeform |
hm? |
| 02:16 |
* |
adlai spends more time designing sane spec for "compute forex torsion" than talking to accountants and venture capital demons |
| 02:17 |
adlai |
e.g., "I pay one dollar to rent cage in datacentre, and earn one satoshi from subletting cage to kitchen mouse" could be the torque at one end of the cable, with similar quotient at other end, anchored to... idk, euros per pound. |
| 02:18 |
adlai |
then you have a bunch of tensors and cross products and sam's your uncle, no? |
| 02:18 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: again not 'if only exch rate were diff.' matter was simple like hammer : dun matter what the exch rt is in $orcland, you still need cashflow. |
| 02:19 |
asciilifeform |
(see also.) |
| 02:19 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-29 22:01:04 asciilifeform: well anywhere 'expensive' if yer broke; and conversely |
| 02:19 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-29 22:05:27 asciilifeform: not moved anywhere, because what actually wants is to move outta workschwitz, and at his place in foodchain this requires 'a different globe' rather than simply plane ticket.. |
| 02:19 |
adlai |
what I'm describing is meaningless without at least four dimensions of currency. |
| 02:20 |
adlai |
in the example of your visit to Romania, those would be, perhaps... spending time working at your dayjob in maryland, earning dollars from the dayjob; versus spending time and savings searching for a dayjob in romania, earning enjoyment of eastern europe and the hope of another dayjob |
| 02:21 |
asciilifeform |
lol dayjob in ro |
| 02:21 |
asciilifeform |
ro aint much fun on the ~5$/d the locals make |
| 02:21 |
adlai |
well you repeatedly said this would not be practical; and the example I gave here involves time and hope as dimensions of currency, so is also a bit of a charicature. |
| 02:23 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: dayjob sux no matter where you do it, is the other thing. |
| 02:23 |
adlai |
fwiw, this kind of computation is precisely the reason I've repeatedly considered joining your datacentre clientel; when I "feel like trader", from my own proverbial bathtub... the forex torsion is computed on an untethered guitar string, and it sounds worse than terrible. |
| 02:24 |
asciilifeform |
good % of wai ro was fun was that asciilifeform got to spend 2w not at his terminal. |
| 02:24 |
adlai |
yes |
| 02:25 |
adlai |
you ever get, idk, a weekend away from keyboards? |
| 02:25 |
asciilifeform |
rarely |
| 02:25 |
adlai |
without it costing a plane ticket and two weeks of spending cash in a suitcase |
| 02:26 |
* |
adlai found that the weeks of "no keyboard other than mechanical typewriter" worked wonders for his own happiness, regardless of what they may have done for other metrics |
| 02:26 |
signpost |
best if in sun. |
| 02:27 |
asciilifeform |
week of idleness for asciilifeform costs considerably moar than just about any plane ticket. |
| 02:27 |
* |
signpost intends in next home to put consoles in a solarium. |
| 02:28 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: do post, if you do this, if find lcd that actually visible in sun |
| 02:28 |
adlai |
what about one of those antisad lamps? |
| 02:28 |
adlai |
back in my New England days, these were frequently recommended to folks who didn't like the winter. |
| 02:28 |
signpost |
will do. will probably take a few attempts. |
| 02:28 |
* |
signpost needs at least an hour of sunlight per day to feel well. |
| 02:28 |
signpost |
meant to be middlingly brown for a european. |
| 02:29 |
* |
adlai actually had no problem with winters... was more disturbed by the typical teenager problems, "what do you mean I am not a member of any clique in the social graph!" |
| 02:29 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: 'eizo 3285' mostly ok in sun near window, at full gas, but asciilifeform not tried it outdoors/in solarium fwiw |
| 02:29 |
signpost |
winter's fine, as long as crisp and sunny often |
| 02:30 |
* |
adlai wonders how long until blind programmers reappear. |
| 02:31 |
adlai |
so far, I've not prioritized "be able to use computer with eyes closed" at any significant level, despite making this pretty much #1 priority for the piano keyboard. |
| 02:31 |
adlai |
it is remarkably frustrating to learn how to play a piano blind, after having already learned how to play it not blind. |
| 02:32 |
mats |
put braille on the keys |
| 02:32 |
phf |
u.s. outside of major diversity enclaves is both surprisingly beautiful and surprisingly pleasant |
| 02:32 |
phf |
(this is re some points made further up the log) |
| 02:33 |
asciilifeform |
if what you like is mountains, bears, etc. prolly can get 'beautiful and pleasant' on erry continent short of the ice caps |
| 02:33 |
phf |
that's not all i like and not all i'm talking about |
| 02:34 |
asciilifeform |
phf: hm? |
| 02:34 |
adlai |
mats: re:braille, I am much less worried about touch typing, and much more worried about linear vs gestalt |
| |
↖ |
| 02:35 |
adlai |
although at least some study of the braille arrangement could be educational. |
| 02:36 |
phf |
but even when it comes to "mountains and bears" there's not many places with such variety of experiences made easy to access by men long dead. e.g. west coast goes from russian evergreen forest, to sequoia, to desert |
| 02:37 |
* |
signpost loved the transition from around portland, OR, to the columbia river valley |
| 02:38 |
asciilifeform |
phf: prolly oughta elaborate. (at risk of repeating ancient thrd) what asciilifeform liked in ro : austrohungarian architecture w/ just the right admixture of sovok nostalgia, 5 course dinner w/ venison for ~20$ walking distance from bed, and that didn't have to sit at terminal 12h/d, lol. 1st 2 not avail. in north amer. for obv. reasons; last item was a 'while air in the tanks' affair, similarly obv. |
| 02:38 |
signpost |
desert on one side, rainforest on the other. |
| 02:39 |
* |
asciilifeform unrepentantly 'city' type, and cities in usa suck imho. |
| 02:39 |
* |
adlai has been advised to leave cities! |
| 02:39 |
signpost |
one can love it all. |
| 02:40 |
adlai |
imo, Israel only has one city; the conversation ending with "leave town" did not go as far as "which one, lol?" |
| 02:41 |
mats |
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html |
| 02:42 |
signpost |
mats: this seems such a mistake, at least from the perspective of anyone who enjoys life. |
| 02:42 |
adlai |
mats: some sorta caption, anchor text, hook beyond merely a url, please? |
| 02:42 |
signpost |
weimarism, it worked for germany! |
| 02:42 |
adlai |
"www.rand.org" is not much of a hook. |
| 02:42 |
asciilifeform |
mats: reads exactly like last 50y of 'professional sovietology' lol |
| 02:42 |
asciilifeform |
prolly by nao they've a perl script.. |
| 02:43 |
adlai |
hasn't the Rand Corporation been around for longer than intellectuals have been hating on the author? |
| 02:44 |
asciilifeform |
(for folx not familiar, 'rand co.' is a lulzy reich outfit, proxy for various wunderwaffen interests, which existed to push 'soviet thread'(tm) and 'moar costly wunderwaffen needed' since '50s) |
| 02:44 |
asciilifeform |
*threat |
| 02:44 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: no relation to the chick |
| 02:44 |
* |
adlai considers it an equivalent corporate voice to "Think Tank, Inc", "Think Tank, Ltd", and "Think Institute" |
| 02:44 |
asciilifeform |
(was 'research and development') |
| 02:44 |
signpost |
"Deploying additional tactical nuclear weapons to locations in Europe and Asia could heighten Russia???s anxiety enough to significantly increase investments in its air defenses." << I could not hate these people more. |
| 02:45 |
phf |
asciilifeform: i'm not "unrepentantly" city, so all in all i'm quite happy with a variety of experiences provided by u.s. but i've also gotten disappointed in cities and also in the whole "5 course meal" culture. in my opinion the later is mostly dead. i don't mean that you can't get the proverbial 5 course meal, i mean that they wouldn't know how to place silverware, or when to serve digestive against aperetif, or whatever. |
| 02:45 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: dig out their similar brochures from half century ago, all reads precisely alike |
| 02:45 |
mats |
seems to be working to some extent |
| 02:45 |
asciilifeform |
phf: more pertinently, whatever 'n course meal' in usa will include sysco |
| 02:46 |
mats |
got the germans to rearm which seemed impossible for decades |
| 02:46 |
asciilifeform |
(possibly if yer rockefeller or even mp -- won't; but speaking of humans) |
| 02:46 |
mats |
nobody saw that coming |
| 02:46 |
adlai |
fwiw, first time I ever encountered the word 'Rand', without the '-om' suffix, was in the caption of a big rectangular block of guess what kind of unwhitened data. |
| 02:46 |
* |
signpost does not see virtue in the circle-of-guns-to-head model with which earth governs itself. |
| 02:46 |
asciilifeform |
mats: whatcha talking about, gdr was hosting american nukes for most of past half c |
| 02:46 |
signpost |
would rather see the thing rip loose. |
| 02:46 |
asciilifeform |
err, frg |
| 02:47 |
mats |
sure, but they were hardly a competent military power |
| 02:47 |
mats |
europeans had to beg for american airpower to do libya |
| 02:47 |
asciilifeform |
mats: was simply a parking lot for us army. just as today |
| 02:47 |
adlai |
for all I know, the other pages of their book of uncorrelated numbers were whitened beyond legibility; this one page was quoted in some other book, as an example of, "look, if you want really uncorrelated stuff, you have to do more than copy code out of this textbook" |
| 02:48 |
phf |
asciilifeform: that's not entirely true, i think you're measuring us by the greater dc area, which is indeed a shithole. e.g. philly has great restaurateur scene. "farm to table" is almost always not just a catch phrase! |
| 02:48 |
signpost |
lots of great food around austin and houston also. |
| 02:48 |
mats |
double the budget again and they could conceivably stand up a one quarter plausible european army |
| 02:48 |
asciilifeform |
phf: asciilifeform not been to all of usa. but at this pt would bet $, if there were any way to settle the bet, that erry publicly accessible restaurant there serves nonzero sysco. |
| 02:49 |
asciilifeform |
or equivalent. |
| 02:49 |
signpost |
but you know, I'm sitting here listening to miles davis vinyls in my underwear with a crappy beer, so I may not be the cultural ambassador you're looking for. |
| 02:49 |
phf |
asciilifeform: eh, i now remember your rants on the subject |
| 02:49 |
adlai |
does germany even have any fundamental pacifism in its legislation, the way japan does? |
| 02:49 |
phf |
and wash my hands! |
| 02:51 |
* |
adlai not kept up with pace of legislation, and gave up on doing so, sometime around when had to read and write about the US Constitution during school |
| 02:52 |
adlai |
imagine returning to Israel, after this! "Maybe Israel has a constitution shorter than that of the US?" ... "uh, ever heard of the bible? begin from genesis, and keep reading for six thousand years" |
| 02:55 |
adlai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092628 << ideally, the gordian gestalt knotting of rows and columns would not suffer from the PWM nastyness which, unsprurisingly, affects both optical screens and guitar amplifiers. |
| 02:55 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 22:33:16 adlai: mats: re:braille, I am much less worried about touch typing, and much more worried about linear vs gestalt |
| 02:56 |
adlai |
probably even affects nerves, without any electrical bills involved. |
| 02:56 |
adlai |
however, that is some other entomologist's specialisation! |
| 02:58 |
mats |
why do you always write like you've done a sheet of acid |
| 02:59 |
adlai |
in case "linear vs gestalt" is worse than mere word salad: the two terms refer to the kind of information flow found in hearing, and vision, respectively. |
| 02:59 |
asciilifeform |
mats: iirc he always eats one while booting up |
| 02:59 |
mats |
this is why people hate you |
| 02:59 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
| 02:59 |
signpost |
bwahaha |
| 02:59 |
adlai |
because I have eaten enough contiguous tabs, long ago, to probably talk this way forever? |
| 02:59 |
signpost |
here I was thinking he seemed *less* high! |
| 02:59 |
* |
adlai never saw an entire sheet in one piece |
| 02:59 |
signpost |
wrote and erased a compliment to that effect! |
| 02:59 |
mats |
newb |
| 03:00 |
signpost |
pfff I ate plenty of acid; what you ate is speed. |
| 03:00 |
asciilifeform |
hm i thought that was laddel's thing |
| 03:00 |
mats |
talk to enough grateful dead groupies and you can eventually get yourself a sheet for ~$400 |
| 03:00 |
phf |
i've hooked up with a older raver girl from manchester, who partied through the early 90s. like the best acid house times. she literally could not finish a sentence. she'll start on a point and then it'll keep rolling and rolling and rolling... |
| 03:01 |
adlai |
there's something to be said for having that conversation, where by the end of it, the dealer understands why one of the most frequently repeated pieces of advice is "never sell an amount, to one person, that you would not want eaten in one dose" |
| 03:01 |
signpost |
"when you get the message, hang up the phone" (tm) (r) (mckenna) |
| 03:02 |
phf |
"i once smoke so much weed i saw dmt gnomes" (tm) (r) (mckenna) |
| 03:02 |
adlai |
my favorite story, iirc about both McKenna brothers, is that they screamed tones at a campfire, attempting to cause chemical changes in the stew boiling above it by hitting resonant tones of relevant reactions. |
| 03:02 |
signpost |
hue |
| 03:03 |
* |
signpost suspects rather that people are just utterly strange, and mostly struggling to contain it. |
| 03:03 |
adlai |
although this may be a story about T.McKenna, and only recounted by his less drugged-out brother. |
| 03:03 |
signpost |
substances are innocent bystanders to their strange. |
| 03:03 |
* |
asciilifeform not eaten lsd, not because averse but simply not encountered in meatwot to date. |
| 03:04 |
adlai |
you probably spend too much time at computer terminals! |
| 03:04 |
asciilifeform |
could say it's yet another 'landscape of usa' that asciilifeform not been to. |
| 03:05 |
adlai |
my experience with, let's call them "beyond pothead" folks, is that they are not fans of initiating conversations about hard drugs next to computer terminals. |
| 03:05 |
phf |
explore the inner dimensions of your miiind maaaan |
| 03:05 |
adlai |
obviously, there are exceptions to this generalisation. |
| 03:05 |
asciilifeform |
adlai, phf : asciilifeform admits, still has suspicion that 'they couldn't finish a sentence!' is a selection bias rather than effect of n grams of xyz |
| 03:05 |
adlai |
part of the problem is stack depth |
| 03:06 |
asciilifeform |
( could the chick finish-a-sentence before the lsd ? ) |
| 03:06 |
signpost |
folks like that typically started substances as a distraction from severe mental illness. |
| 03:06 |
adlai |
if it's her first time speaking a complete paragraph, outside of writing assignments in school, then not being able to speak a paragraph within one sentence is no surprise. |
| 03:06 |
asciilifeform |
( e.g. k.mullis, could finish a sentence ) |
| 03:07 |
* |
signpost done "heroic doses", might be a little weird, might sometimes write shit about nietzsche nobody cares about, but believes the sentences mostly cohere. |
| 03:07 |
adlai |
it helps to mercilessly shred apart written prose, in search of grammatical structure, when you suspect they don't. |
| 03:08 |
asciilifeform |
( or even consider the effects of stims , similarly ) |
| 03:08 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2014-07-14 asciilifeform: re: 'performance enhancing' dopes - important to remember that, even supposing performance enhanced, it matters who you were. e.g. paul erdos will crap out theorems, a hooligan will be able to break that many more windows, a lunatic will rant longer and more vigorously, etc. |
| 03:08 |
signpost |
re: performance enhancers, most enjoyable I ever tried was oxiracetam. |
| 03:08 |
signpost |
worked so well I stopped because I was suspicious. |
| 03:08 |
signpost |
"cannot possibly be costless" |
| 03:08 |
phf |
asciilifeform: from personal experience i will say that it's highly likely that yes she could. because she would talk normal often times, you'd just see her get into a mode of sorts. i've also seen effects of heavy psychedelic use on long term psychedlic users |
| 03:08 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: interesting -- not noticed any macroscopic effect from subj |
| 03:09 |
signpost |
tried the same? |
| 03:09 |
adlai |
can even use a shredder for this! provided that it's not a cross-shredder; i.e., shred apart rows of your text, arrange scroll-like contiguous sentences, then fold into trees. |
| 03:09 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: tried various xyzracetams, incl. that one |
| 03:09 |
signpost |
possibly varies by physiology, dunno |
| 03:09 |
asciilifeform |
found very much in category of 'hmm maybe this does sumthing' |
| 03:09 |
* |
signpost felt UTTERLY AWAKE. |
| |
↖ |
| 03:09 |
signpost |
never that awake since. |
| 03:10 |
signpost |
without the sense of being swept by e.g. caffiene, cocaine. |
| 03:10 |
phf |
has any one of us ever really been awake maaaan? |
| 03:10 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
| 03:10 |
* |
signpost chortles |
| 03:10 |
signpost |
bad dream, we'll wake up listening to mp address the first republican congress momentarily. |
| 03:10 |
adlai |
phf: ever encountered "took so much drugs that reality broke"? i.e., cases typically forcibly hospitalised, or at least labelled 'psychotic', for disagreements about simple facts of the immediately evident physical world |
| 03:11 |
* |
adlai fwiw never agreed with 'psychosis' label, and was hospitalised for violence |
| 03:11 |
signpost |
adlai: sounds like you live in a shithole that abused you for being high. |
| 03:11 |
* |
signpost also, lives. |
| 03:11 |
phf |
adlai: oh yeah i have a few fun stories about it. |
| 03:11 |
adlai |
psychiatrists have a remarkably low bar for 'dangerous violence'; in my case, I intentionally knocked an office toy off the desk. |
| 03:12 |
asciilifeform |
lol! lemme guess, this was in usa ? and this got you into a bedlam?! |
| 03:12 |
adlai |
nah, in Israel! |
| 03:13 |
adlai |
I had plenty of other complaints, some of them agreeably dangerous; yet this action is the one that got the liberty of walking out of the hospital legally revoked, until a committee decided that I deserved it. |
| 03:13 |
* |
asciilifeform not yet been in a bedlam but suppose there's still time, lol |
| 03:13 |
phf |
adlai: one guy was growing mushrooms with his girl, and was taking them every weekend for a year or so, and then had a psychotic break. he doesn't really remember what happened, but his first sort of concious memories is him calling his parents from a diner in dc (he lived in philly). he threw out his shoes because cia put bugs in them, etc. |
| 03:13 |
* |
signpost finds it hilarious how readily the j00z jumped both feet into fascism. |
| 03:13 |
signpost |
"well! it worked!" |
| 03:14 |
asciilifeform |
fascism -- mature capitalism (tm)(r)(stalin) |
| 03:14 |
signpost |
phf: rough. |
| 03:14 |
signpost |
asciilifeform: 100% granted |
| 03:14 |
adlai |
phf: my early psychiatric paperwork is full of doctors failing to quote correctly my explanations of ... pretty much anything related to computers |
| 03:15 |
adlai |
now, it could be that I was not speaking coherently when explaining myself; yet, couldn't doctors quote incoherence precisely, instead of paraphrasing worse than the lunatic? |
| 03:15 |
phf |
adlai: one guy had a psychotic break on dmt, he at some point came back from the dmt experience with a split personality. one is him, the other is a god. he's now (years later) reasoned himself into some kind of ability to function. but he still experiences the godhead within him, talks to it, etc. |
| 03:15 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: likely most folx who program computer -- good candidates for heavy psychiatric treatment. simply, most keep it under wraps |
| 03:16 |
signpost |
phf: you don't have one of those? |
| 03:16 |
* |
signpost considers most of these stories "traumatic direct experience of normal psychology" |
| 03:16 |
adlai |
phf: that is one approach to functioning; the other, depersonalise the godhead into your own TempleOS. |
| 03:16 |
signpost |
wtf has anyone praying heard throughout history? that. |
| 03:17 |
signpost |
jaynesian voice of admonition. |
| 03:17 |
* |
signpost has a 12ft tall being of purple fire that appears in dreams now and again. |
| 03:17 |
phf |
signpost: i'm actually the godhead of the dmt guy. i can only be here when he's sleeping. |
| 03:17 |
adlai |
nah, plenty of folks hear speech more detailed than mere trite imperatives. |
| 03:17 |
signpost |
bwahaha |
| 03:18 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: nifty. asciilifeform dun seem to have had that module installed, in his dreams mostly the shitholes he worked in, or schools he was bored outta his skull in, in various admixtures |
| 03:20 |
adlai |
asciilifeform: in my experience, you can get most of the lessons out of mental asylums within one season; however, one guy I met there had apparently spent closer to an entire year, forcibly confined to the closed ward; and another fellow, never spends entire seasons, yet returns often enough to have ongoing arguments with the other... |
| 03:20 |
* |
asciilifeform on rare occasions, dreams of long-destroyed homeworld |
| 03:21 |
phf |
"just mundaine stuff, school, work places... sometimes i dream of my long-destroyed home planet" |
| 03:21 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: lessons? can't resist to ask, what were these |
| 03:22 |
signpost |
that "spaceman" vision of soviet scientific utopianism is inspiring, comes through in the art I've seen posted in the logs. |
| 03:22 |
signpost |
hell of a better motivation than hoarding company store credits. |
| 03:22 |
signpost |
re: pantheon of mind, eventually I imagine humans will consciously author these. |
| 03:22 |
adlai |
asciilifeform: well! most boil down to familiar cliches, e.g. "It does not matter whether there is always staff observing each patient, if each patient behaves properly." |
| 03:23 |
adlai |
(equivalent to cliche about paranoia) |
| 03:23 |
signpost |
what I was on about re: transcending nietzsche. a human brain's a machine for running agents. plural. |
| 03:24 |
adlai |
when I began discussing this with one of the doctors, as opposed to the nurses, the doctor pretty much turned off the conversation by saying, "spying on you is not ethical. any other questions?" |
| 03:25 |
signpost |
adlai: the isolation and rape (figuratively or otherwise) of these places has nothing to do with healing. |
| 03:25 |
signpost |
it's a box scammer humans created in which to catch prey. |
| 03:25 |
* |
adlai only calls it 'hospital' because that word is on the paperwork. |
| 03:26 |
* |
asciilifeform to date succeeded in staying outta the hands of mengeles; met plenty of folx who haven't, tho, knows a bit re subj |
| 03:26 |
signpost |
if you're actually sick, all the better. prey will stay longer. |
| 03:26 |
adlai |
folks who enter closed wards voluntarily typically do not remain there, voluntarily, for very long! |
| 03:26 |
adlai |
either leave voluntarily, or get liberties removed. |
| 03:27 |
adlai |
obviously, in capitalist utopias like Israel, the folks who enter voluntarily have to keep account while they are there. keeps the population in check, no? |
| 03:28 |
signpost |
recall when I wrote of my own "medication" episode? |
| 03:28 |
asciilifeform |
http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ ? |
| 03:28 |
adlai |
asciilifeform: if you want 'lessons' along the lines of "antipsychotic trip report", the metaphor that I've used for the worst experience was getting my brain buried under a pile of behemoth turds similar to the one at the end of the first Jurassic Park movie. |
| 03:28 |
signpost |
that'n |
| 03:29 |
signpost |
but adlai's bouncing too quickly for me to relate. |
| 03:29 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: 'chemical straightjacket' aha. is how is usually described. |
| 03:29 |
* |
adlai will re-read article re:quetiapine |
| 03:29 |
signpost |
the creatures in these boxes have a pornographic relationship with the "care" they provide. |
| 03:29 |
signpost |
if you get something out of it, great, but it's satisfying something other than "caregiver" in them. |
| 03:30 |
adlai |
first reading was back when I was checking in here / #t approximately once per moon. |
| 03:31 |
phf |
signpost: famously "one flew over the cuckoo's nest" |
| 03:33 |
phf |
(apropos our conversation ken kesey wrote it while working as a night guard at a mental facility while at the same time participating in those government lsd studies) |
| 03:34 |
signpost |
yep, no different than the urge to e.g. sit in congress and make normies pay 3x for bread. |
| 03:34 |
phf |
let them eat ev car batteries |
| 03:36 |
* |
asciilifeform hilariously, ordered some recently, to find that they're in megadeficit |
| 03:36 |
phf |
loafs of bread? |
| 03:36 |
asciilifeform |
evbatteries |
| 03:38 |
asciilifeform |
tho bread, lol, also, last 'baked right there' bakery within convenient range of asciilifeform has shuttered, nao eating 100% handmade, by pet, a la mp's |
| 03:39 |
signpost |
man, having a woman in one's life who takes to the task of plugging every cultural gap she can manage. there is nothing better than this. |
| 03:40 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-04-23#1034575 |
| 03:40 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-04-23 16:56:47 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-04-23#1034571 << asciilifeform has 1 of these also |
| 03:41 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
| 03:43 |
mats |
baking bread isn't hard |
| 03:43 |
asciilifeform |
mats: well it can't be done from console, lol |
| 03:43 |
asciilifeform |
or via a perl |
| 03:43 |
mats |
the real trick is getting a small oven so you can make relatively smaller ovens on demand |
| 03:44 |
mats |
and it won't take 45 minutes |
| 03:44 |
mats |
er, smaller loaves |
| 03:44 |
* |
asciilifeform too late, recursed, blew stack!11 |
| 03:44 |
mats |
waiting 30 minutes to preheat is ridiculous |
| 03:45 |
phf |
30 minutes? that's with electric? |
| 03:46 |
mats |
i'm exaggerating a little, 20 minutes for bread is i think standard with an electric oven |
| 03:46 |
asciilifeform |
seems the dough per se takes longer, what with maintaining the culture etc. but asciilifeform aint personally involved, cannot comment in depth |
| 03:47 |
adlai |
there must be some recipe involving squirrelling an ice cube into the dough, ending up with inverted crust, no? |
| 03:48 |
adlai |
the complete idjit's guide to making bread in a microwave oven |
| 03:48 |
phf |
mats: i don't personally do bread, that's lady's business, but steak preheat to 450f takes about 4 minutes on gas stove |
| 03:48 |
adlai |
signpost: I take it you prefer oneline comments on IRC, instead of the blog? |
| 03:49 |
* |
signpost just arrives at his kettle and what, there's tea here in little stacked jars with w/e white ink labels on the glass. |
| 03:49 |
signpost |
didn't have to whip anyone for this. it just accumulated here! |
| 03:49 |
signpost |
adlai: either way man. |
| 03:49 |
adlai |
stuff you don't learn in chemistry labs! |
| 03:49 |
* |
adlai learned not much more than how to write "GARBAGE ADLAI" really quickly with sharpie |
| 03:50 |
adlai |
protip: write GARBAGE on every beaker, nobody steals your garbage! |
| 03:50 |
signpost |
that's why you're not my wife, sweetheart. |
| 03:50 |
phf |
in this conversation we marvel that in our respective families stuff that was considered the absolute baseline 40-50 years ago works |
| 03:50 |
adlai |
signpost: my comment is, "Have you considered writing such reflections, in the future, without resorting to footnotes?" |
| 03:51 |
mats |
i'm kind of surprised hanbot still blogs regularly |
| 03:51 |
signpost |
adlai: was probably an mp conceit I was imitating at the time, overusing them. |
| 03:51 |
mats |
forgot how many times mp wrote something like 'you better kill yourself if you let me die' |
| 03:51 |
mats |
what a guy |
| 03:51 |
adlai |
re:garbage - for a while, back when I was accumulating hordes of various drugs, I began writing poison labels on stashes. |
| 03:52 |
signpost |
mats: I suspect there was a private life not seen, but w/e. |
| 03:52 |
adlai |
nothing quite medical, simply "POISON", or jolly roger glyphs, etc. |
| 03:53 |
* |
adlai eventually realised anyone rifling through the kitchen had probably hallucinated "GARBAGE" spraypainted on the door, and extra labels were useless. |
| 03:53 |
signpost |
in which it is demonstrated that he knows what I'm talking about by blithering antithesis. |
| 03:54 |
signpost |
phf: the way things have gone, pleasure in the mundane is all that's left. |
| 03:54 |
signpost |
I've got a bidet; maybe my great grandson gets a piano. |
| 03:55 |
adlai |
signpost: re:footnotes - my question about them goes together with the question about oneline comments; I guess my heuristic for whether something warrants an indirection is whether it'd be an endnote, exclusive-of a footnote, in a printed book that had both kinds. |
| 03:55 |
adlai |
* exclusive-or |
| 03:56 |
adlai |
pianos are dangerous! |
| 03:57 |
* |
adlai one time, quite recently, began reading about piano mechanics; apparently most patents for the kind that can be moved from one place to another, are about making the piano quieter, and the forte - also quieter |
| 03:58 |
signpost |
referencing http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-02-03#1611080 |
| 03:58 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2017-02-03 phf: my mom had one of those "papa escaped the purges by burning all paperwork but life got tough when they took our governess" piano teachers, who would lament about being forced to teach peasants and brown folk, not on racial grounds as much as "you have to have a bidet in your house for 3 generations, before you can touch a piano" |
| 03:58 |
adlai |
perhaps not surprising, to folks who encounter music as noisy neighbors, rather than a cheaper pastime than drugs. |
| 03:59 |
adlai |
aha |
| 03:59 |
mats |
signpost: having known abusers, doubt it |
| 04:00 |
signpost |
certainly there's something on the gal's face that says much. |
| 04:01 |
mats |
narcissist despises you for loving them back, but can't go without it |
| 04:01 |
signpost |
could be all their was, can't say. |
| 04:01 |
signpost |
*there |
| 04:04 |
phf |
signpost: oh i got it, i was reflecting on what to say, because i had further thoughts on the subject. i'll just say that i don't think that pianos are coming back |
| 04:05 |
adlai |
... is this "bitcoin kills art" again? |
| 04:07 |
adlai |
one of MP's posts about Bitcoin, and iirc one where I commented similarly to right here, included "Art" as one of the things Bitcoin kills; double-quoted, because that was the entire line. |
| 04:07 |
adlai |
followed by some paragraph of trilema that, honestly, was much less informative than most. |
| 04:07 |
adlai |
... there is a trilema archive somewhere other than archive.top-level-domain, yes? |
| 04:10 |
adlai |
fwiw, after visiting Slovenia, one of my comments to kako was along the lines of "next time I visit, maybe I'll stay long enough to visit a church where there is a church organ" |
| 04:10 |
* |
adlai does not recall whether comment involved "I will make them hate J.S.Bach again" |
| 04:10 |
phf |
adlai: i think there was a log thread like that |
| 04:11 |
adlai |
is there still a search command in the channel? |
| 04:11 |
signpost |
better to just go search and drop a line. |
| 04:12 |
* |
adlai does have a multiplexer! |
| 04:12 |
signpost |
phf: it's alright with me if there's 300 years of the wave receding from here. |
| 04:13 |
signpost |
wasn't going to get me out of here alive in either case. |
| 04:13 |
phf |
i'm just drinking beer and playing my part in maintaining a low s/n |
| 04:14 |
signpost |
not terribly noisy atm imho. |
| 04:14 |
signpost |
do you mean broadly that european culture's irreparable? or something else? |
| 04:15 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-02-03#1611103 << bwahahaha oh god |
| 04:15 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2017-02-03 mircea_popescu: then have him drop his pants to check, and cut off his penis once the inevitable COLORED ; WEIRD pair of GIRL panties shows up. |
| 04:15 |
signpost |
I know he was a bastard, but this shit was top comedy. |
| 04:17 |
adlai |
one problem with the dude ranting endlessly in both IRC and his blog is that I can't recall where I encountered the dangling thread to which I did not respond. |
| 04:18 |
adlai |
if only at least one of us permanently refused to use IRC! |
| 04:21 |
phf |
signpost: i think that european culture died with the death of god, and as a result the death of the aristocracy, after that we had a few decades where sons or grandsons, the people who still remembered played their part. you know dressed well, and had their morning brandy or whatever. the "mad men"/"james bond" period of history, basically already bourgeoisie, but still living in the old world. |
| 04:21 |
adlai |
brief search expedition suggests that the line I sought was also in trilema; this was one similar to, "there is a reason guitars are popular", followed by change of subject without anyone asking what the one notable reason was, in MP's opinion. |
| 04:22 |
signpost |
phf: what of the idea that "god" was this superlative man we could stop crying and carry on writing about? |
| |
↖ |
| 04:24 |
phf |
i mean five course meal is a larp, there's maybe a handful of restaurants in the world where they know what to do with the silverware, or how to act. it's all like make believe. it's the same with piano: there were some highly established men, wrote poetry, rode horses into battle, hunted, and to entertain themselves they played piano. so it's like you play a piece when you're 18, it's a whole different story from when you're 38, but |
| |
↖ |
| 04:24 |
phf |
it's the same person playing. and the people you're playing it to are you equals |
| 04:25 |
phf |
who even listens to piano pieces anymore? some npr bugmen listen to a chinawoman? |
| 04:25 |
* |
signpost listens to Maurizio Pollini often. |
| 04:25 |
signpost |
and not among the NPR'd |
| 04:25 |
signpost |
but who? rounds to zero, sure. |
| 04:26 |
adlai |
"advice for young musicians? do not play instrumental [i.e. non-vocal, non-lyrical] music" - iirc, one of the folks in Metallica |
| 04:27 |
adlai |
I don't doubt they could give the typical 'instrumental metal' band a good fight, yet they rarely include more than, idk, ten minutes, without resuming their ranting. |
| 04:27 |
* |
adlai more familiar with the records than the shows, fwiw. |
| 04:28 |
adlai |
obviously the word 'fight' means different things in different contexts! |
| 04:29 |
* |
adlai goes focus the wet blanket of his sobriety, elsewhere;... goodnight, America[ns] |
| 04:29 |
phf |
signpost: yeah but you listen to basically how pollini felt in 1959 or whatever over and over and over again. and then the other question can you actually understand how pollini felt through his particular interpretation or is it just "lovely music". i know i can't :) |
| 04:30 |
signpost |
we don't disagree that we're in the midst of a fall. |
| 04:30 |
phf |
most people for whom that music was compose could also play it, so it wasn't just listening, it was listening with a professional's ear. "oh that's a very sad take, but that's because your beloved died from plague my dearest richard" or whatever |
| |
↖ |
| 04:32 |
phf |
but the men who participated in this experince were fucking /complex/. they rode, and managed estates, and participated in warfare, and were expected to play music and read literature. because they had money and time, but also a social role that compeled to spend that money and that time on this sort of activities |
| |
↖ |
| 04:34 |
signpost |
I am a brute compared to any of these. |
| 04:34 |
signpost |
the future is brutal. |
| 04:35 |
signpost |
we'll likely exhaust this planet of what ran modernity and collapse into something that can't remember it. |
| 04:35 |
signpost |
that said, I hear much in that music. it isn't an affectation. |
| 04:35 |
phf |
i started reflecting on this as a result of two things: i reread a handful of classic russian literature books, war and piece, hero of our time by lermontov, some tolstoy short stories, that kind of stuff, and i started riding in earnest, and i sort of realized that our distance from our quite recent past is immense. |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 04:36 |
* |
signpost nods |
| 04:36 |
signpost |
steps back out of this poverty are going to look crude. |
| 04:36 |
signpost |
some would rather slip into the sea. |
| 04:36 |
phf |
signpost: btw not doubting at all your enjoyment of classical music |
| 04:37 |
signpost |
nah, this is a worthwhile topic. |
| 04:37 |
phf |
also apropos http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-23#764926 |
| 04:39 |
* |
signpost sees it, but does not resign to it, is all. |
| 04:40 |
phf |
yeah nor am i, i'm just no longer necessarily looking for the eldorado, certainly not in the old world. austro hungarian architecture is great and all, but it's inhabited by cockroaches. |
| 04:42 |
signpost |
man in the limit might not care about those things either. |
| 04:42 |
signpost |
if that algo results in cycles of civilizational destruction every 3-5k/yrs, say, to hell with it, and the pianos. |
| 04:44 |
phf |
like wien's innere stadt area, it's all historic buildings, but it's basically a giant mall. i've spent a lot of time there during tmsr, and a bit in the past two years. and it's a pretty common experience: wherever you go, where there are "old buildings", natives pretend like they are somehow part of it, like living amongst ruins of greater culture elevates them, but it doesn't. |
| |
↖ |
| 04:44 |
phf |
signpost: ride the kali yuga :p |
| 04:46 |
* |
signpost googles briefly, looks like hindu cyclical time, presently a dark age. |
| 04:47 |
signpost |
oldest example of which I'm aware for the "important because we nested in these buildings" thing is egypt |
| 04:48 |
phf |
don't have direct experience of egypt, but had it recently with turks |
| 04:50 |
signpost |
upstack, much of the maurizio pollini I enjoy is chopin and debussy. |
| 04:53 |
signpost |
just taking chopin's melancholy, makes perfect sense to me, every layer. |
| 04:53 |
signpost |
but this is well later than the bombast of whichever german empire. |
| 04:54 |
* |
signpost hasn't much nostalgia or connection to these. might as well be chinese history. |
| 04:54 |
phf |
i like the romantists, easier for me to feel connected to them because that's the most well studied period in russian history |
| 05:00 |
verisimilitude |
I'm learning Latin; many important men are said to have learned Latin; highschool students are said to have learned Latin; how well did they truly know Latin, however? |
| 05:01 |
verisimilitude |
Plenty of men know Latin, but can't actually speak it in real-time. |
| |
↖ |
| 05:01 |
verisimilitude |
I'll just do my best. |
| 05:01 |
phf |
i at some point knew enough latin to read ovid |
| 05:02 |
signpost |
"does the ideal man stop learning because there exist men who have already learned more than he has time or context to achieve?" |
| 05:02 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: is this a fair rendering of your point? |
| 05:03 |
signpost |
if so, it's exactly what I mean re: thinking in terms of the superlative man. |
| 05:03 |
verisimilitude |
No. |
| 05:03 |
verisimilitude |
I question how great those men were. |
| 05:03 |
signpost |
then it's what you should mean! |
| 05:03 |
signpost |
:D |
| 05:04 |
verisimilitude |
I certainly agree with it anyway. |
| 05:06 |
verisimilitude |
The word ``certainly'' in Latin is CERTĒ. |
| 05:10 |
phf |
verisimilitude: so my school was just a parody of what the real thing was supposed to be, but i will say that we could read latin well enough to spend time searching through ovid for smutt, or sign gaudeamus igitur from memory while also understanding what i'm singing (there's a handful of other hymns) |
| 05:11 |
phf |
so i'm certain that men who studied it and then had opportunity to use it would've been quite proficient at it |
| 05:11 |
verisimilitude |
That may be; either way, I must become better. |
| |
~ 15 minutes ~ |
| 05:27 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: why? |
| 05:29 |
* |
signpost hitting the hay. gnite all. |
| 05:29 |
phf |
later |
| |
~ 7 hours 58 minutes ~ |
| 13:27 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092882 << can only speak for self, but tho asciilifeform has 0 connection to any kinda aristocracy, e.g. can tell actual food from ersatz, tho gives 0 damn re whether forks arranged correctly; never touched a horse, but wrote/translated poetries; even enjoys to listen to piano, go figure. the larps are orthogonal to this. |
| 13:27 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 00:23:31 phf: i mean five course meal is a larp, there's maybe a handful of restaurants in the world where they know what to do with the silverware, or how to act. it's all like make believe. it's the same with piano: there were some highly established men, wrote poetry, rode horses into battle, hunted, and to entertain themselves they played piano. so it's like you play a piece when you're 18, it's a whole different story from w |
| 13:29 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092896 << the aristos imho poor 'role models' given as they did over9000 things because expected to participate in 'tea ceremonies', rather than because enjoyed. ( and when 'do what enjoy', often enuff spent the time in drink, 'ru roulette', mp-style debauchery. ) |
| 13:29 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 00:31:05 phf: but the men who participated in this experince were fucking /complex/. they rode, and managed estates, and participated in warfare, and were expected to play music and read literature. because they had money and time, but also a social role that compeled to spend that money and that time on this sort of activities |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
observe that the composers/artists and the aristos were largely disjoint sets. |
| 13:32 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092912 << this -- entirely factual ( and recall, mp went on for kilometres about it. ) again can speak only for self, but asciilifeform enjoys the old stones ( partly nostalgically, spent most of childhood in & among'em ). |
| 13:32 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 00:43:06 phf: like wien's innere stadt area, it's all historic buildings, but it's basically a giant mall. i've spent a lot of time there during tmsr, and a bit in the past two years. and it's a pretty common experience: wherever you go, where there are "old buildings", natives pretend like they are somehow part of it, like living amongst ruins of greater culture elevates them, but it doesn't. |
| 13:33 |
asciilifeform |
and yes, having'em doesn't turn the inhabitants into sumthing other than homo redditus. but asciilifeform did not suffer from this illusion. |
| |
~ 25 minutes ~ |
| 13:58 |
* |
asciilifeform grew up with actual piano in the house, too ( tho mother wouldn't teach him , 'if you were mozart, it'd be obvious', today denies this, 'you didn't want') |
| 13:59 |
asciilifeform |
and 4 metre ceiling, lol |
| 13:59 |
asciilifeform |
i suppose we were , to speak, 'aristocrats', tho what sense does it make to talk aboutta country w/ 100mil 'aristocrats'. |
| 14:00 |
asciilifeform |
certainly no one was in the sense of mp's 'larp'. |
| 14:00 |
PeterL |
I have a piano in my house |
| 14:01 |
asciilifeform |
PeterL: pianos still avail., phf was speaking of 'death of culture' as i understand |
| |
~ 25 minutes ~ |
| 14:26 |
PeterL |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092509 << here in Michigan, if somebody asks where you are from you are expected to point to the correct part of your upraised right palm (cause our state looks like a mitten) |
| 14:26 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 21:20:30 adlai: was inspired by "french schoolchildren learn to draw a hexagon before they learn to condescend at english speakers" |
| 14:30 |
PeterL |
(I live about an inch left from the bottom of the space between your thumb and first finger) |
| 14:36 |
PeterL |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-04#1092537 << kids these days get their history from the musical "Hamilton", so they all know how he negotiated to get his way on something by letting the Virginians stick the capitol in the swamp close by |
| 14:36 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-04 21:34:28 adlai: as for the location of the federal government, my impression was always that it was simply "what is median of ex-colonial coastline", rather than "walking distance from most beautiful plantation" |
| |
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~ |
| 15:42 |
* |
asciilifeform doesn't begrudge folx the pleasure of masturbating to mythos of 'golden age civ' but reserves right to lol when the subjects of the fantasy are mutually annihilatory and heavily airbrushed |
| 15:42 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-06-08 11:27:33 asciilifeform: to give concrete example -- non-debased currency and freedom of commerce; but also somehow at same time feudal-style hereditary nobility. ignoring the historical fact that the former , on planet3, nailed the latter |
| 15:42 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-06-08 12:17:41 asciilifeform: the chronology (either 'fr rev started destruction of sovereignty' or the 'diet of worms' one, he had at least 2) imho was just as selective a reading of actual events as what was taught at sovok schools. (albeit 'with sign bit flipped.') |
| 15:45 |
asciilifeform |
in ru this kinda fantasism is memetically known as 'хруст французской булки' ('the crunch of the french baguette') |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 40 minutes ~ |
| 16:25 |
adlai |
honestly, I think most of my decade-later takeaway from both US history classes, and Latin classes, is that the practical benefit of studying "dead" languages is that you can compose opinions about a complicated sentence without recoursing to a page of single-clause sentences, with antecedents left as puzzles for the reader. |
| 16:27 |
* |
adlai never had much trouble reading the prose of various 'founding' documents, and had more problems with producing the demanded volume of _edited_ prose; and thanks taking Latin classes before failing history classes for the good side of this. |
| 16:30 |
adlai |
I'm not quite at the point of declaring 'academic honesty', in the way it's taught to high school students, as worse than useless; however, it does definitely get in the way of the simplest instructions for turning five hours of reading primary sources into five pages of informed opinion. |
| 16:31 |
adlai |
these are quite literally, "copy the primary source; then, fuzz what you want to pass off as your own ideas using thesaurus, equivalent grammar, etc, and delete what is too stupid or obvious to be worth stealing" |
| 16:32 |
adlai |
somehow no teacher ever gives instructions like this! it's always closer to "keep reading, until twenty pages of garbage opinion appear; then, distill five pages of gold, slap on two pages of quoted sources, and distill again." |
| 16:34 |
adlai |
then again, I was busy disappointing so many simultaneous expectations in those years, it's no surprise that I had difficulty complaining about the expectations of folks who weren't there to defend themselves. |
| 16:37 |
* |
adlai wonders whether there's an erythrochigan, where the folks can crack "know this place like the back of my hand" jokes |
| 16:38 |
adlai |
joking aside, geography is useful and I was surprised to discover that in Israel some folks do part of their high school specialisation in 'geography' |
| 16:39 |
adlai |
when I first heard this, upon returning, it simply did not parse. "you learned what, how to read a map?" |
| 16:39 |
* |
adlai also thought he understood calculus after passing the AP exam. what gives. |
| 16:48 |
adlai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092901 << I found the opening chapters of W&P somewhat too... sitcommish? for me, when I gave it a first chance. It was like getting hit with an opening scene to a shakespeare play that begins with entry of every single character listed, and then they all talk past eachother about their problems. |
| 16:48 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 00:34:46 phf: i started reflecting on this as a result of two things: i reread a handful of classic russian literature books, war and piece, hero of our time by lermontov, some tolstoy short stories, that kind of stuff, and i started riding in earnest, and i sort of realized that our distance from our quite recent past is immense. |
| 16:49 |
adlai |
so far my russian literature familiarity is a teeeeny bit of dostoevsky, bulgakov, and finding myself mentally and physically incapable to continue reading an english translation of zamyatin. |
| 16:50 |
adlai |
I dunno if the translator of zamyatin was trying intentionally to make it read like 19th century english, instead of simply writing for a late 20th / early 21st century audience. |
| 16:51 |
adlai |
maybe zamyatin's original prose is all flushed and blustery and can't even get through one tweet without popping a raging boner. somehow I couldn't get through one book without leaving it in a "take a book, leave a book" shelf. |
| 16:52 |
* |
adlai is referring to "We" |
| 16:53 |
adlai |
the translation was no more alluring by the fact that the preface began with, approximately, "I had been seeking a reason to read this book, and finally, I'm getting paid to translate it to English! yay" |
| 16:55 |
adlai |
otoh, the translations of dostoevsky and bulgakov were both readable, as though written directly in English and only incidentally set in white/red russia. |
| 16:58 |
* |
adlai found some old scan of bulgakov in russian. probably more readable, once ready to read prose, than the only dead-tree 'book' in 'russian' in my library... the navoya zavet, of course. |
| 17:02 |
adlai |
upstack re:pianos - I think one great problem is the treatment of music as sacrament. |
| 17:04 |
adlai |
this is of course entirely fueled by my own personal angst, at having plenty of music lessons on execution before ever opening a web browser and reading about theory instead of doing schoolwork. |
| 17:06 |
adlai |
don't get me wrong, music is a wonderful cultural glue and social lubricant; yet, opening a dictionary and robotically concluding that music is religious, by virtue of binding together ... it is a stretch. |
| 17:09 |
PeterL |
adlai: what do you mean by treating music as sacrament? |
| 17:11 |
adlai |
the best example is anthems. |
| 17:11 |
adlai |
for example, in Israel, you're not supposed to sing the anthem just cus you wanna practice singing the anthem. |
| 17:13 |
adlai |
nobody would tell you to stop singing; however, it'd be similar to someone setting down prayer mats in the middle of an airport concourse, instead of in the room designated as the chapel. |
| 17:15 |
PeterL |
you mean just walking down the street in public, or you don't even practice the song when alone? |
| 17:16 |
adlai |
fwiw, I'm uncertain whether this is cultural leftovers of the grand european 'cathedral', where the pinnacle of music is the most expensive productions, in the most expensive halls; or whether what I described as "treating music as sacrament" is something older than pianos, older than Latin, possibly older than written history. |
| 17:17 |
adlai |
well, it's not sung at soccer games. typically it's sung at memorial times; e.g. individual funerals, holocaust rememberance, etc. |
| 17:18 |
asciilifeform |
world's most depressing anthem afaik |
| 17:18 |
adlai |
it is also sung at some national events (independence day celebrations, duh), and quite frequently sung near the end of big organized social protests to emphasize that the protest is not anti-government, and merely anti-current-politicians. |
| 17:18 |
adlai |
asciilifeform: lol yes! |
| 17:18 |
adlai |
that is why I like it. |
| 17:19 |
* |
asciilifeform also likes |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
famously was sung by prisoners as they were gassed, by various accounts |
| 17:19 |
adlai |
it's not "antland antland", it's more "the world is still terrible, have you ever read greek mythology?" |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
| 17:20 |
* |
adlai never been quite so asphixiated, can't attest to credibility of that legend. |
| 17:20 |
asciilifeform |
reportedly they were able to get through 1-2 verses |
| 17:20 |
adlai |
military simulation of chemical warfare is naturally nowhere close to the real thing. |
| 17:21 |
asciilifeform |
singing in gas mask prolly unsatisfying |
| 17:21 |
adlai |
that is child's play, and tbh one of the quickest ways to lose respect for a CO |
| 17:21 |
adlai |
most people raise their voices to "shout through", instead of projecting. |
| 17:23 |
adlai |
the masks I've used always had a dedicated diaphragm for e.g. holding against microphone when talking on a radio; my guess is that even through masks without this, the vocal technique is no different. |
| 17:24 |
adlai |
it boils down to "imitate monotonic droning of tracheotomy prosthetic" |
| 17:25 |
adlai |
slightly different from projecting, as taught to stage actors; yet much more similar to that, than to the hoarse squaking that somehow most people do the moment an exercise goes masks-on. |
| 17:26 |
adlai |
however, by 'military simulation', I meant simulation of asphixiating gas without masks, or detecting a leaky mask, etc. |
| 17:26 |
* |
adlai was not specialist, maybe they got more serious training |
| 17:26 |
asciilifeform |
a, 'gas tent' |
| 17:28 |
adlai |
right. it was unpleasant, yet not incapacitating, and commanders ordered each soldier out pretty much the moment they became visibly ridiculous (tears, snot, etc) |
| 17:28 |
* |
adlai has been pepper sprayed; much worse. |
| 17:30 |
adlai |
one surprising fact of my own neurology, that I learned after the immediate symptoms of the spray reduced enough that I could see clearly, was that the 'overflow' of pain went to the sensation of cold, rather than hot. |
| 17:31 |
asciilifeform |
common enuff in e.g. burn victims |
| 17:31 |
adlai |
for some reason I expected it to be a burning pain, similar to eating spicy food, or sunburn. |
| 17:31 |
adlai |
maybe it is a compensation by some intermediate circuit. |
| 17:31 |
asciilifeform |
nfi how it worx, perhaps a meat equiv. of register overflow. |
| 17:33 |
adlai |
I guess my point about music is that placing it on a pedestal, once you've taken down all the animist and deist idolatry, might blind you to the power that it has. |
| 17:35 |
adlai |
no radio DJ, or advertising composer, has any doubts about this power; yet lots of people (me included) follow music similarly to how pollinating insects follow smells. |
| 17:37 |
* |
adlai can ignore some symptoms of first-world other-people's-problemsism without missing one step, yet reflexively pauses to listen to music, and it takes conscious effort to suppress this |
| 17:40 |
adlai |
asciilifeform: ever get told by the Microsoft Paperclip that "It's never too late to learn to play the piano!" |
| 17:40 |
adlai |
? |
| 17:42 |
* |
adlai recalls one long conversation with a fellow who, at a relatively late age, decided to learn an instrument, after never playing music |
| 17:43 |
* |
asciilifeform theoretically would liketo learn a lotta things. but notenuff cycles. |
| 17:44 |
adlai |
his teacher had him learn one piece. instead of launching him on the same set of lessons you'd give a child, he simply gave him, iirc, the cello part of a sonata, and had him spend a year practicing each of the various techniques relevant for each part. |
| 17:44 |
adlai |
at the end of the year, "cool, you are now able to play! let nobody ever tell you that you are unable to play music." |
| 17:45 |
adlai |
instead of, after one year, you can, what... read, and play half a dozen scales. blech. |
| 17:50 |
* |
adlai had one teacher who recommended studying scales at the pace of one per year... if I'd listened, then I'd have run out of scales by now! |
| 17:51 |
* |
adlai has told worse jokes, although not many. |
| 17:55 |
adlai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092901 << have you considered studying one of the modern daughter languages in parallel to studying Latin? |
| 17:55 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 00:34:46 phf: i started reflecting on this as a result of two things: i reread a handful of classic russian literature books, war and piece, hero of our time by lermontov, some tolstoy short stories, that kind of stuff, and i started riding in earnest, and i sort of realized that our distance from our quite recent past is immense. |
| 17:55 |
adlai |
err, crap. wrong link. |
| 17:56 |
asciilifeform |
adlai: iirc he knows several quite well |
| 17:56 |
* |
adlai mistakenly hallucinated having updated paste buffer to point at... |
| 17:57 |
adlai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092923 << have you considered studying a modern language in parallel to latin? |
| 17:57 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 01:00:01 verisimilitude: Plenty of men know Latin, but can't actually speak it in real-time. |
| 17:57 |
adlai |
Mircea naturally recommended Romanian as the least drifted daughter language. |
| 17:58 |
* |
asciilifeform learned ro well enuff to get by in ro and even read most of mp's spew; would not describe it as 'less drifted' than e.g. sp |
| 17:59 |
* |
adlai had learned French up to reasonable gossipping level, even wrote one page article about Dr. Guillotine's Marvellous Machine, before ever starting to study latin |
| 18:01 |
adlai |
my Latin teachers never expected students to speak in Latin during class, and only one of them even encouraged this, at a 'conversational latin club' that mostly consisted of him chatting with a few of the most proficient students while everyone else listened. |
| 18:02 |
adlai |
my point here is that having conversational proficiency as a goal is problematic when you don't have interlocutors. |
| 18:04 |
adlai |
this does however smell a bit like "learn lisp for the insight, then keep writing java at work, except your java will secretly be lisp that you compile-by-hand to java" |
| 18:04 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
| 18:05 |
* |
asciilifeform regards 'learn xyz for teh insight!' as cargocultistic, virtually no one does any such thing to any degree seriously |
| 18:06 |
adlai |
in recent years I have a growing respect for the Arabic approach, where there is a standard written language that is not considered identical to any individual nation's speech; and there are standard pronounciations of the sacred text, for those who wish to speak ancient text rather than silently reading. |
| 18:09 |
adlai |
it seems to be quite an honest result from the difficulties of recording what anyone will admit were originally spoken revelations, as opposed to some revealed sacred item. |
| 18:11 |
adlai |
apparently, there was a short while, before the Qur'an was recorded as written text, when this was considered a bad idea, because most of the followers were illiterate, so the written text would not be readily useful to them! |
| 18:14 |
* |
adlai still can't even claim full literacy of the Arabic alphabet; as with any natural language, practicing by reading names in street signs does not give good coverage of the entire script. |
| 18:18 |
* |
adlai snoozes; sadly, can not expect encountering Godhead, or foreign planet, in dreams... most common recurring dream, is losing teeth |
| 18:19 |
asciilifeform |
meanwhile anuther 'silk road' bites it. 'run moar tor'. |
| 18:20 |
asciilifeform |
this particular 1 was mega-popular in ru. |
| 18:21 |
asciilifeform |
$ticker btc eur |
| 18:21 |
busybot |
Current BTC price in EUR: $42134.08 |
| 18:22 |
asciilifeform |
^ claimed '23e6 eur worth of btc confiscated' , i.e. ~546 btc then. |
| |
↖ |
| 18:24 |
* |
asciilifeform wonders whether rectothermally or simply kept in gox. would bet -- the latter |
| |
~ 1 hours 25 minutes ~ |
| 19:50 |
verisimilitude |
I imagine conversations, adlai. Just tonight, I was talking to churchgoers about PASTOR meaning shepherd and using it in various ways, as I was falling asleep; I don't even like churchgoers. |
| 19:50 |
verisimilitude |
Well, last night. |
| 19:51 |
verisimilitude |
My dogs are good listeners, but they never correct my mistakes. |
| 19:51 |
PeterL |
verisimilitude: why do you always put the latin words in all caps? |
| |
↖ |
| 19:56 |
verisimilitude |
The Romans didn't have lowercase letters, silly. |
| 20:04 |
verisimilitude |
I already do this with Common Lisp; it's REDUCE, not reduce. |
| |
↖ |
| 20:17 |
mats |
new toys for ukraine https://archive.ph/3YlSR |
| 20:19 |
asciilifeform |
mats: lol, 10?! |
| 20:19 |
asciilifeform |
miserly |
| 20:21 |
* |
asciilifeform wonders what the rest of the hyped $1e9 reich goodies for ukrs consist of... over9000 old wehrmacht uniforms ? |
| 20:23 |
* |
asciilifeform recently lolled, walking through the street in town where old white folx live, saw coupla performative ukr flags; these were made of some kinda see-through gauze |
| 20:24 |
asciilifeform |
prolly come for phree w/ dnc donations nao. |
| 20:25 |
mats |
i think i read somewhere the smaller ones are $6k |
| 20:25 |
* |
asciilifeform considered to knock on door and 'ще не вмерла україна...' but doubt they'd sing along |
| 20:25 |
mats |
pretty good pricing compared to a dji phantom |
| 20:25 |
asciilifeform |
mats: similar but non-lockheed-priced item used since '14 by both sides, model airplane + frag |
| 20:26 |
mats |
its all electric though |
| 20:27 |
asciilifeform |
iirc the cheapo ones already were electric |
| 20:28 |
asciilifeform |
might wonder how small bomb bots handle jamming ( they dun have the bulk to carry 'predator'-style upwards pointing sat dish thing , nor would reich likely give ukrs subscription to their bw , barely enuff for selves ) |
| 20:30 |
asciilifeform |
prolly worx great against pashtun-type folx w/out ew gear. |
| 20:34 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1093063 << the lispms had proper lower case. ( legend has it, 'dark age' irons which had only enuff rom for 1 font case, initially were to have the moar readable lower, but some churchgoing type objected, 'we oughtnt write the lord's name in lowercase'...) |
| |
↖ |
| 20:35 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-04-05 16:03:00 verisimilitude: I already do this with Common Lisp; it's REDUCE, not reduce. |
| 20:35 |
asciilifeform |
at any rate had 0 to do w/ rome. |
| 20:44 |
* |
shinohai shakes fist at Green letters on Black background that represented lowercase in TRS80 BASIC .... |