#asciilifeform | 2022-03-31

Logged on 2022-03-30 18:39:43 phf: channel move to pest when

00:13

bidirectional bridge.

00:15

is ignore message supposed to have valid timestamp/*chain/speaker fields?

00:16

/fields/data/

00:17

nope

00:17

or rather, doesn't need to

00:17

*

asciilifeform doesn't recall whether blatta handles this specfully

00:22

the spec implies that message prelude is always valid for the various message types, but then the payload for ignore is random data. really it's the entire 428 bytes of ignore message that's random

00:22

thinking about it, ought amend the spec, ignore oughta have valid timestamps, or can be replayed to cause some annoyance

00:22

ah

00:22

yeah

00:23

errything else in header can remain rubbish

00:25

phf: spec is very much a work in progress, and there'll probably be at least one totally breaking change in upcoming revs

00:25

Logged on 2022-01-26 12:00:49 asciilifeform: ... so imho, that scheme still probably best approach so far.

00:33

crtdaydreams

signpost: can my WoT key please be updated as per http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-30#1090649

00:33

Logged on 2022-03-30 19:44:37 crtdaydreams: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=-kOa

~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~

02:10

asciilifeform: blatta expects IGNORE messages to have a timestamp

02:11

phf ^

~ 27 minutes ~

02:38

aye

~ 2 hours 33 minutes ~

05:12

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/3/31/india-russia-explore-a-rupee-rouble-payment-scheme-to-bypass-war

~ 7 hours 5 minutes ~

12:18

mangol

actual quote from a National Security Journalism Fellow [sic] on twitter today: "If Democrats want to avoid a mid-term wipe out, they need to stop talking about inflation, crime and the economy. Voters care about 3 things right now: Trump's collusion with Russia in 2016; abolishing the gender binary and protecting public school students from their parents"

12:19

mangol

can't make this shit up

~ 1 hours 54 minutes ~

14:13

!e view-height

14:13

block_height: 729841

14:13

mins_since_last_block: 87

14:14

ah, miners are on a coffee break

14:16

phf: hey welcome back, i was toying around with the idea of making a vpatch hopper, the idea would be your site btcbase.org/patches , but with some irc interface so that anyone in WoT could update the site

14:23

whaack: if you make one that is easy to set up and use, it would be a nice thing that each person could have on their own sites

14:32

hm why irc interface rather than www hopper ?

14:35

yes, a www hopper would work too, I was more thinking about having a nice way to view the vpatches, like btcbase does

14:41

asciilifeform: the irc interface means it can be integrated with pest so that upload is limited to pest peers

~ 39 minutes ~

15:21

a

15:25

!e view-height

15:25

block_height: 729846

15:25

mins_since_last_block: 32

~ 59 minutes ~

16:25

https://archive.ph/fdmQJ << "I call on all states to criminalize the use of the 'Z' symbol..."

16:26

(tm)(r)z^Helenskiy

16:27

best and brightest in ukr government, eh?

16:27

*

shinohai imagines Don Diego de la Vega weeping in a corner ....

16:29

meanwhile in misc. ukrowank.

16:32

iirc I saw this morning that the ruble had indeed risen to pre-war levels.

16:32

almost

16:33

https://app.koyfin.com/share/8ab9a842a3

16:34

not bad while the entire world is laying siege to your monetary system.

16:34

sadly my gold was lost in the same boating accident that took out my btc.

16:36

"But, by doing this he has very subtly also supported the Fed and it???s plan to withdraw dollars from Europe, because this will keep the price of gold in check for a little while and keeping the ECB from offsetting spiking Eurobond yields with higher gold reserves on its balance sheet."

16:37

asciilifeform: affixing my tinfoil hat, the ukr episode smells of a struck deal ^

16:38

"Putin on the left arm, Powell on the right and Lagarde is about to get pulled apart at the seams if Davos doesn't play ball and give up." etc

16:40

signpost: asciilifeform orig. suspected that meat of the 'deal' was to sell us lng at 10x the antebellum rate to eureich

16:41

likely this part will happen on sched

16:42

this, perhaps damage the euro currency system. economic destruction of yurp propped up the american empire last time.

16:42

purportedly us only can supply ~tenth of the req'd fuel tho. which means curtain call for what remains of industry in eureich

16:42

meanwhile putin and xi get to switch to their own currencies for exports.

16:43

could've, afaik, ~decade ago tho

16:46

might've been waiting to let us soften up, meanwhile piling up gold.

16:57

*

asciilifeform recalls recent lulzy reich.decree 'cancelling'(tm) ru gold

17:01

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090693 << saw this the other day via orlov's blog (which has been entertaining lately)

17:01

Logged on 2022-03-31 16:29:07 asciilifeform: meanwhile in misc. ukrowank.

17:05

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-30#1090423 << i'm not completely in the camp of "muh based russia" but there's a certain amount of "the enemy of my enemy..." in how i view the situation

17:05

Logged on 2022-03-30 01:51:22 phf: there's the new right wing eschatology "i'll leave for russia, which is not the globohomo!", with its mirror urban russian escatology "i'll leave for anywhere else, which is where iphone!"

17:07

billymg: is somewhat complicated, ru brass aint 100% external to reich

17:07

Logged on 2022-02-28 22:21:08 asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform's guess is that he's hobbled by traitorous ministers who already reserved villas in miami. is the only half-plausible explanation for over9000 'whys'

17:07

only "out" I ever contemplated was "tmsr in 50 years"

17:08

btw wb phf, encouraging to see people i read in the logs long ago return

17:08

in the time of the prev. reich this was called 'internal emigration'

17:10

asciilifeform: true, but it seems china/india/brazil are on russia's side as well in this. or perhaps just *not* on america's side

17:11

on the side of a "multi-polar world" they say.

17:12

yeah, which beats a purely reich ruled world imo

17:12

or at least that's my hope

17:12

perhaps, but unclear if that's true for *you*

17:13

my italian relatives came to philly, lost everything that made them italian.

17:13

not being a downer here, just stating plainly that changes in world order affect everything.

17:16

signpost: in the days when the anglo reich's 'lift was headed up', this was commonplace. but observe how today's south amer. folx in usa aint 'assimilating', they're solidly 'spanish' n gen later

17:17

*

asciilifeform lives near a great many of these, they openly fly mexican, salvadorean, etc. flags, raise chickens, have mega-parties w/ over9000 relatives, won't hear any english spoken when walking by

17:20

i like the mega-parties, just take the hot girls wherever you here mexican polka and you got a night of free booze.

17:21

*

billymg wonders if an actual sovereign like russia or china will ever do a "passport4life for 5 btc" kind of scheme like el salvador (which does it for 3)

17:21

asciilifeform: if russia offered that, would you take it?

17:21

billymg: not clear if ES has passed that legislation yet. Talking to a guy next week.

17:22

ah, got it

17:22

shinohai: unless I misremember, you look like you're in their wot.

17:22

thimbronion: you're there now, right?

17:22

this makes all the difference, lol

17:22

billymg: I fly in today.

17:24

signpost: IMO white privilege thriving amongst latinos

17:25

what i'm hoping is that the "multi-polar world" *will* benefit individuals (with btc) because countries will offer protection in exchange for some

17:26

but unclear, trend seems to be to make all use of btc outside of reich licensed/authorized venues illegal

17:26

and even in multi-polar world could see the poles aggreeing on this

17:27

agreeing*

17:28

signpost: the latino wot? Yes, extensive meat wot exists in that world.

17:30

*

signpost can get brown as all hell, got italian and greek genes helping with that.

17:30

but I'm outed as soon as I try out my spanish.

17:36

i sound like that guy in the ending of kill bill

17:37

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090730 << ru passport aint over9000 hard to get (esp. if you speak ru), but in all cases you gotta move there 1st

17:37

Logged on 2022-03-31 13:20:55 billymg: asciilifeform: if russia offered that, would you take it?

17:37

( and see also )

17:37

Logged on 2022-03-29 22:05:27 asciilifeform: not moved anywhere, because what actually wants is to move outta workschwitz, and at his place in foodchain this requires 'a different globe' rather than simply plane ticket..

17:38

asciilifeform: i meant supposing you had a stack of btc to survive on for a few lifetimes

17:39

and russia's agreement was simply, 5btc, then yer free

17:39

billymg: if. tho for these afaik ru aint the easiest place to run on btc

17:39

( phf might know concretely )

17:40

i was also imagining in that scenario that they'd have a more open btc enconomy

17:41

now this prolly science fiction

17:41

Logged on 2022-03-15 10:45:24 asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform finds interesting the continued disdain for btc in ru (and not merely among officials, who run own 'printer, brrr' and one'd expect, but among commoners) -- is seen as instrument of foreign domination

17:42

just wishful thinking at this point, but if people prove really good at keeping their cold storage cold then countries might start to return to the carrot as a way of getting some

17:42

problem is that one gotta eat erry day, and not simply when wind blows in correct direction.

17:43

'system can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent'(tm)(r)(the zerohedge people)

17:43

yes, this is a 'hodl until victory' strategy

17:43

Logged on 2022-01-15 00:51:23 asciilifeform: 'hodl' until victory/death.

17:43

but things are moving fast lately, could be sooner than we think

17:44

$ticker btc usd

17:44

busybot

Current BTC price in USD: $45824.8

17:44

^ so far the various dampeners work a++, war had less measurable effect on '# of 0s' than e.g. 1 fart of musk last yr

17:45

i.e. btc-usd exch rt aint in any serious way uncoupled from the moneyprinter

17:47

asciilifeform: btc rarely goes up significantly in response to positive news in the short term. If it did, line drawers would be $rich.

17:47

*

signpost doesn't expect moar movement til block reward halves.

17:47

signpost: i dun recall any palpable effects from any prev. halving

17:47

exchange rate seems orthogonal to a country making it freely legal / selling citizenship for it

17:47

( erry time folx expect one, and lolno )

17:47

depends on whether you consider the run to $70k an effect.

17:48

certainly not settled.

17:48

in fact, if exchange rate is low, better deal for the government, they get more in btc terms

17:48

signpost: afaik that was the musk fart run

17:48

and when he sucked the fart back in, 100% reversed

17:48

countries should jump on opportunity to court reich refugees now

17:48

before it grows another zero

17:49

normally 'court refugees' happens when they're good for sumthing. e.g. the various highly qualified specialists from sovok in '70s, usg buttered'em up over9000 (and most ended up driving cabs anyway)

17:50

why not good for the fact that they have bt

17:50

btc*

17:50

which they would otherwise take to the grave

17:50

*

signpost is of two minds about the block reward schedule.

17:50

well in that case yer meat, and what the 'courter' actually wants aint yer earthly carcass, but the coinz

17:50

wouldja want to be in that position voluntarily?

17:50

on the one hand, it may be a design flaw that the amount of reward per unit of time does not change depending on demand of BTC.

17:50

they don't get your coins is what i'm saying

17:51

you die with them

17:51

they die with you

17:51

on the other, perhaps this results in better distribution of coins.

17:52

this supposes that the bubbles forming and bursting cause miners to unload more of their hodl in the bust.

17:52

billymg: what they bank on is that you won't take'em to grave.

17:52

(trilema) 2014-05-01 asciilifeform: basic course on russian privatization. 'your formerly state-issued flat is now yours. you are a millionaire!' - 'neato. but my salary hasn't been paid in a year. gotta buy something to eat. what does dinner cost?' - 'half a million.'

17:53

i.e. the german j00 gold extraction algo.

17:53

asciilifeform: i.e. exchange rate games?

17:53

the use of fiat-side financing to avoid distributing hodl might also be a design flaw.

17:53

keep the rate suppressed so that you have to voluntarily spend your stack

17:53

thwarting the distribution mechanism supposed above.

17:53

billymg: mno

17:53

Logged on 2020-08-13 20:46:45 asciilifeform: in train to auschwitz, glass of water cost exactly 1 gold watch.

17:54

difference is they can lift the watch off your corpse

17:54

they can't take the keys

17:54

often enuff they didn't need to take it off the corpse, tho

17:54

if you find yourself on the train car just blow your brains out to spite them

17:55

*

signpost suspects they didn't have too many firearms inside said traincar.

17:55

naturally. point was, why voluntarily buy ticket for such a train

17:55

also "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

17:55

asciilifeform: ah i see

17:56

asciilifeform: so you were more saying "it's a trap!" if any country offers you something in exchange for btc

17:56

signpost: recently finished reading backbreaker, eichmann trial. on a few occasions someone in fact came off the train with a pistol

17:56

billymg: correct

17:56

asciilifeform: could be, but i could also see some governments realizing that, at least for btc, carrot it more effective than stick

17:59

interesting to consider what that could look like, in principle

17:59

asciilifeform: much respect to whomever got one up their cunt/asshole.

17:59

e.g. if moscow were offering $1mil in rub equiv. per btc to any resident

17:59

billymg: only question I have is why the btc extraction would be "fair"

18:00

i.e. "passport costs... what you got?"

18:01

signpost: it doesn't have to be fair for all definitions of fair, just has to be "more fair" than 20% capital gains + suppressed exchange rate

18:01

fresh passports historically cost 'what you got', yes

18:01

then the next country offers slightly better deal, and so on

18:02

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-29#1090410 << would expect most of the "unfair" to come after the paperwork.

18:02

Logged on 2022-03-29 21:40:19 phf: i also attempted to recreate similar lifestyle in russia, and my take is that russia is kind of a shithole. unless you're going for the whole "one year in taiga", there's not really place to put a compound of any kind: there's going to be some local warlord or prince that'll decide to fuck with you, just because you stand out/have resources/etc.

18:02

in uy, ru, etc less so, because these aint traditional 'escape' destinations

18:02

iirc phf already had the passport tho

18:02

"heard some yankee fuck thinks he'll post up in a cafe for the next 40yrs. will have my cousin welcome him"

18:03

signpost: 'the chechen treatment' aha

18:04

'Не покупайте квартиры у Маши, они всё равно будут наши'(tm) ('don't buy a flat from masha, it'll be ours soon enough anyway')

18:05

^ common graffiti in '90s ex-sovok during init. 'soft' ethnic cleansings

18:09

'don't buy mary's flat, soon you'll own it just like that'

18:10

*

asciilifeform wonders what the spanish rhyme will look like when anglo folx start 'making legs' from usa

18:10

what's "making legs"?

18:10

turning tail

18:11

or however it's called

18:11

ah

18:11

"high-tailing it"

18:12

*

signpost bbl

18:12

is it wrong to want to flee the bad guys?

18:13

billymg: the only 'wrong' thing is to have unrealistic expectations of cashability of yer assets in such flight

18:13

*

signpost not criticizing anyone. I'm up against the same bad alternatives.

18:14

i'm not so pessimistic, though maybe the world is 100% rule-by-orc

18:16

if we're talking science fictions, e.g. asciilifeform would move to ru if for 'court warez cracker by personal appointment to his majesty' etc.

18:16

but if it's merely 'buy 1room flat in moscow for 5btc' then naturally gotta ask 'and then wat'

18:21

fwiw atm the opposite is happening.

18:21

Logged on 2022-03-29 21:56:23 phf: heard a joke, "it took medvedev 10 years to build skolkovo (a kind of technopark dev shop area in ru), and only a week for putin to turn yerevan into silicon valley"

18:22

( mass exodus of programmers & other bit-flippers outta ru, not even voluntarily but simply because the 1 way to live decently there as a wage worker was to work for the money-printing foreigners )

18:22

Logged on 2022-03-29 21:57:12 asciilifeform: well afaik they're mostly a 'i work for london and would like to keep getting the paycheques' emigres

18:23

so i finally got the raid card and correct 2.5 to 3.5" sled adapters for my server but i can't get the thing to boot a gentoo install disk. worst part is nothing seems obviously wrong (gives single "all good" post beep, bios appears to work fine and doesn't show any errors, ram check on post passes)

18:23

hmm billymg which card

18:24

also tried removed all but two sticks of ram, rotating those, tried without the raid card plugge din

18:24

plugged in*

18:24

and where precisely does it stop

18:24

(what's on the screen?)

18:24

asciilifeform: this card: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ZQS82W/

18:25

billymg: were you able to get into the card's boot rom menu ?

18:25

asciilifeform: first displays post screen, with "press DEL to enter setup". i can go into bios settings just fine.

18:25

get's stuck after that step

18:25

how about the raid's post rom ? doesn't appear ?

18:26

when it gets stuck there's nothing on the screen, display just says "no signal from input"

18:26

billymg: if it's a supermicro mb or similar, you gotta enable pci boot roms in bios

18:26

asciilifeform: never gets to raid's post rom, no

18:26

asciilifeform: the thing is, i've tried booting with the raid card pulled, same thing

18:26

a then sounds like a dud mb

18:27

even though happy bios settings screen, happy beep?

18:27

iirc billymg's kit was dropped from a cliff in shipping ?

18:28

i.e. nothing is screaming "error"

18:28

billymg: try leaving it on the thermal monitor subscreen in the bios for coupla hrs

18:28

see if overheats

18:28

*

billymg hasn't tried for a couple of hours but did notice "low" cpu temps on that screen after a few minutes

18:29

billymg: do you own a 'post card' ?

18:29

i do not

18:29

is what asciilifeform uses in cases like this

18:30

is the only way to quickly detect e.g. failing line in ps, dud ram where not gets even to vga, etc

18:30

billymg: do i recall correctly that this box was dropped in transit ?

18:31

(or was that whaack's..?)

18:31

asciilifeform: dunno if dropped, but bent somehow

18:31

billymg: bent almost always means -- dropped

18:31

the board/chassis is the least expensive part of the build, could order another one

18:31

( how didja think it bends ? )

18:32

asciilifeform: heavy objects on top will also bent

18:32

bend*

18:32

this was carried in a suitcase, not shipped

18:32

if properly padded, the only way it'd bend is if were dropped

18:33

in any case, yes, damaged during shipment

18:33

*

asciilifeform when transporting to uy, had several bent rack ears, in corners where ~impossible to pad well, but errything electronic survived

18:33

when returning boxen after fall of piz, finally realized that the ears do come off..

18:34

asciilifeform: from visual inspection it seems like everything is fine with the internals

18:34

bios even recognizes the usb stick plugged in (shows correct vendor, etc)

18:35

billymg: the nearest i've seen to your case ( 'bios ok, but stone dead after post') was a sad ps, where not in fact sufficed to run the box after all cpus brought up

18:35

interesting

18:35

difficult to say precisely whether yours -- this, or not, tho

18:35

i can try plugging directly into the wall instead of the UPS

18:35

ps

18:35

not ups

18:36

i.e. the box's

18:36

right but was thinking potentially the UPS isn't delivering enough

18:36

to the PS

18:36

or is that not possible?

18:36

nah if it were tripping, would notice

18:36

ah

18:36

billymg: see if you can swap in ps from similar box

18:36

will try the other ps then, came with two

18:42

this is where a tyan mb with a nice post code display would come in handy

18:46

oh well

18:46

no luck, with the second ps either

18:47

likely the mb then

18:47

asciilifeform: it was this guy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/333442066992

18:48

*

asciilifeform has a # of boxen with this mb.

18:48

not seen this particular headache with'em to date

18:48

$125 for the board, chassis, and two opterons

18:48

notbad

18:48

evidently dinged tho

18:49

(not even necessarily en route to castle billymg , even; price seems almost suspiciously lowball)

18:49

asciilifeform: I run one of them - has been humming along for a couple years

18:50

they even do support calls

18:50

thimbronion: iirc you got yours from ebay too?

18:50

billymg: yeah same guy, likely

18:51

thimbronion: interesting, similar price too?

18:51

billymg: yep

18:51

*

billymg assumed the low price was because "burned out in google datacenter" prior

18:51

hrm

18:51

might just try ordering another one then

18:54

asciilifeform: any progress on the extra dulap?

19:03

billymg: not in past mo. but will put it on front burner in coming wk

19:03

Logged on 2022-03-30 13:13:55 asciilifeform: fed claudia (rip) w/ syringes 7x/day for past month (couldn't eat normally)

19:04

meanwhile, 'The US State Department announced on Thursday that it will offer a third ‘X’ gender option on passports as of April 11...'

19:04

asciilifeform: ty, appreciate it

19:07

It's nice to see mutant representation.

19:08

reminds me of this

19:08

(trilema) 2018-01-08 btcvixen: my id says female though

19:08

http://logs.bitdash.io/trilema/2018-01-08#1767151

19:08

(trilema) 2018-01-08 asciilifeform: and i'ma rhinoceros!

19:09

in 2022 asciilifeform can indeed be rhinoceros if he likes

19:10

jonsykkel

still waiting for pronoun field in addition to speaker in pest messages

19:11

wainotinspec!? transphobic!

19:12

I can't put the ukrainian flag in my Pest name, because it doesn't allow Unicode.

19:14

asciilifeform: not sure where that whole there's no btc in russia comes from, or the part about foreign control.

19:14

well not 'no'

19:14

but would expect not large % of the pot atm

19:14

( if phf knows reason to suspect otherwise , plox to expand )

19:18

there's a handful of famous (second hand, i've never pursued, but "everyone knows") of some loud mouth hodl personality get robbed at gun point for coins

↖ ↖

19:19

*famous cases

19:20

both as a "gop stop" and as an organized targeted raid

19:20

so nobody talks about coins, who has any sizeable amount of coins

19:21

aa

19:21

*

asciilifeform recalls hearing of at least 1 such robbery

19:23

verisimilitude: sure you can

19:23

but as far as "btc economy" there's just a lot of zoomer pragmatism, there seems to be a lot of high convenience coins at this point, that one can use to buy coffee or more often get paid by a shady london crypto company in exchange for your dev skills

19:23

UkrainianFlag_PeterL

haha, like this

19:24

Z

>.>

19:25

Z

Где все мои товарищи пролетарии ?

19:27

various hackers have shown me their android wallets/exchanges where they would have their mixture of "coin X i get from work" "coin Y i trade to make extra $200/mo" and "i also sometimes buy into my bitcoin hodl", but it's a poor form to show the hodl, or even imply how much (or how little)

19:30

also banking infrastructure is 20 years ahead of u.s. probably on par with chinese (i don't have personal knowledge, but that's the word). can do free micro transactions by counterparty's phone number/cc number/qr code/contract number. can e.g. buy street shavarma by doing a phone to phone transfer 150rub with no commission in real time. pretty much all the hole in the wall shops (electronics, horse equipment, hookah places, that's my

19:30

personal experience) will use card to card transfer

19:32

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2022/03/30/a-proclamation-on-transgender-day-of-visibility-2022/

19:32

``I continue to call on the Congress to swiftly pass the bipartisan Equality Act, which will ensure that LGBTQI+ individuals and families cannot be denied housing, employment, education, credit, and more because of who they are or who they love.''

19:33

That should be ``or whom they love''; how sloppy.

19:34

Anyway, it's nice to see the same nonsense used to push negroes on everyone will be used to push trannies on everyone.

19:35

as far as "republican" use of coin that goes back to the part that you can't really know until you experience it: there's no freedom in russia, because it's not part of cultural make up. the only reason to hodl is so that you can go to spain, buy yourself a house, get eu residency and "finally live like a white man"

19:43

there are of course exceptions to above, but they are non-overlapping. former millitary guys who like shashlik and ohota, living in the middle of nowhere, have no use/interest/etc. for anything more complicated than a radio. on the other end you have crypto barons (all 1 or 2 of them?) who long left to south america, because that's where all crypto barons go.

19:44

*

asciilifeform reads w/ interest phf's observations from voyage, but can't comment in depth as has not himself been there since ancient times

19:45

evidently 'miamiism' still goin' strong on ru

19:45

*

asciilifeform wonders if will change shape when eureich no longer 'living like white man'

19:46

street shavarma for equiv $1.84!

19:46

*

signpost easily spends 12-14 bucks at the nearby halal place for one plate.

19:46

similar to e.g. ro

19:47

(where had mega-dinners in mp-grade restaurants for 2 for ~20$)

19:48

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090951 << 'flashing the hodl' is at this pt prolly bad for one's health anywhere on planet3

19:48

Logged on 2022-03-31 15:26:08 phf: various hackers have shown me their android wallets/exchanges where they would have their mixture of "coin X i get from work" "coin Y i trade to make extra $200/mo" and "i also sometimes buy into my bitcoin hodl", but it's a poor form to show the hodl, or even imply how much (or how little)

19:49

*

adlai routinely gets questioned about being 'crypto millionaire', it is quite exhasperating

19:49

wb adlai

19:50

iirc adlai stepped in a gluetrap with the rosencrantz fella or what was his name

19:50

I am not, nor do I "live like", any sort of millionaire; yet almost everyone irl remembers that I'd mentioned bitcoin on and off in the past decade.

19:50

... what?

19:50

him

19:50

Logged on 2020-01-07 11:02:09 adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-01-05#1004837 << indeed, first time I ever played Go against Meni Rosenfeld, he had said something like "it's not a game if there's no clock" about chess to the people who were there to play chess against him

19:51

signpost: there's a lot of wins like that in ru. i mean if you're going there as an american tourist it's awesome

19:51

I actually almost went in to business with him, years ago

19:51

adlai: right, and the vultures remember, presumably

19:52

*

signpost knows two folks that were exchange students in iirc st petersburg, spoke highly of it.

19:52

he had an idea for an AI-ish company, and wasn't going to found it alone, although was open to collaborating; then I went to the university instead.

19:52

We almost went in to business, years ago, adlai.

19:52

( see also.. )

19:52

Logged on 2022-03-29 22:01:04 asciilifeform: well anywhere 'expensive' if yer broke; and conversely

19:52

Logged on 2022-03-29 22:04:36 asciilifeform: was never happier anywhere than in '17 in ro, but only brought enuff green for 2wks and after that had to go back to where one gets more

19:52

signpost: you can do the whole mp style adventure, go to some dirt poor place, get the best of everything, etc.

19:53

a++ if you've a bottomless sack of green

19:53

maybe in the 2030s, if everything settles.

19:53

verisimilitude: well, that would've probably remained a more conventional situation

19:53

iiuc, asciilifeform was referring to startups

19:53

signpost: in 2030 likely ru/cn tourists w/ bottomless sacks of diff colour having ripper of a time in gringolandia

19:54

friend of mine's favorite russia story: paid kalyanshik an equivalent of $50 to stay after hours and tend to his kalyan

19:54

we used to have these in washingtonistan, but fell victim to crackdown on smoking

19:55

phf: what is 'kalyan' ?

19:55

hookah

19:55

So, how goes thy website, adlai?

19:55

*

signpost was a weirdo that had a hookah in his place in college. enjoyable ritual.

19:57

signpost: it's a complete scene in russia. fully stripped of arab influence, it's basically an alternative to going to bars. and they pack it /excellent/, check on you every half hour, adjust as needed.

19:57

verisimilitude: badly; I've actually not added to it in about a year. I have accumulated typewritten pages recently, and at some point will need to setup some flow for scanning what I want to edit on a computer.

19:58

Alright.

19:58

pretty cool. great for extended conversation.

19:58

signpost: like this is a representative place https://yandex.ru/maps/org/dom_musye_lyo_kalyana/23406434368/gallery/

19:59

yeah you can clock 3+/hours easy. order food delivery from nearby high end restaurants, they brew tea for you. i already miss it :D

20:00

signpost: 99% by volume of the hookah I've smoked in my life was when hosting Americans for whom hookah was part of the middle eastern experience and they wanted to experience the middle east, damnit

20:01

My ex wife and I had a hookah before we got married, I called it the "steam roller" but it really resembled a samovar.

20:01

remaining 1% was a remarkably similar situation - friend from the military, quite non-arab, yet in the few times I went drinking with his friend group, it was always at places that had a hookah per table as part of the furnishings.

20:01

for me, was a refinement of the habit of sitting around a fire pit smoking cigarettes.

20:01

yeah, the nice ones look like elegant glass samovars

20:02

I find that the flavors of different shishas (the hebrew, possibly arabic, word for the hookah tobacco) are actually distinguishable

20:03

whereas different cigarettes are all the same asphixiating smoke, as far as my nose and tongue can discern.

20:04

*

signpost rolled own when he smoked. the mass produced coffin nails all taste like shit.

20:06

I had a nice long conversation about Russia, last time I was in the 'drunk tank'

20:07

the other inmates of cell were an old dude who spoke only yiddish, and an immigrant from russia

20:07

he did not have any good things to say about Israel, yet insisted that Russia was worse. declined to elaborate.

20:08

fellow had no local connections of any kind. got Israeli citizenship by being jewish, and was in the middle of military service.

20:09

if he plays his cards right, he can turn into a perfectly satisfied middle-class cog after military discharge

20:11

cool story bro

20:12

welcome back to civilisation, phf !

20:14

adlai: ty!

20:15

*

phf would like to know where civilization see so can come back to it

20:15

*is

20:17

the entire eastern corridor has turned to shit in the past three years. i honestly have no idea how ascii can live there

20:19

well, how about "welcome back to chatting on irc after such a long silence"

20:19

my little vacations are nothing compared to yours

20:19

phf: hard to say where better is at this point even within the US.

20:20

e.g. austin's brilliant solution to being overrun by homeless was to shove them into the surrounding woods.

20:20

*

signpost expects that'll be back on the streets in greater numbers before long.

20:21

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091019 << ditto, lol

20:21

Logged on 2022-03-31 16:14:52 phf: would like to know where civilization see so can come back to it

20:21

california and pacnw are a zombie apocalypse.

20:21

signpost: when i was in austin an uber driver told me houston and dallas would load theirs onto busses and send them to austin

20:21

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091021 << like prolly almost anywhere in usa, 'livable' if you can muster the $$$ and terraform

20:21

Logged on 2022-03-31 16:16:41 phf: the entire eastern corridor has turned to shit in the past three years. i honestly have no idea how ascii can live there

20:22

knowing that austin would keep 'em

20:22

it's possible, though houston also has a huge amount of dirt-cheap housing.

20:22

and still has crackheads on the streets.

20:23

over here no one interesting on street; but also not even close to 'dirt cheap' anyffin

20:23

*

adlai has no idea where Tel Aviv stashes its homeless population; most of my attempts at conversation with them fail, except for one guy, with whom if I start talking, I will literally have to tell him "ok, I am leaving now, if you keep talking, it will be to yourself" because he will simply launch into an interruptible monologue, stopping only to breath

20:25

talkative fellow actually has things to say; claims to have worked at various industrial plants when much younger, most of his rant consists of describing the various garbage he encounters. earns his food by collecting recyclables from trash cans.

20:26

*

asciilifeform encountered these in usa, tho not recently

20:27

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091012 << lol, a drunk tank w/ a 90+y.o. in it ?!

20:27

Logged on 2022-03-31 16:06:17 adlai: the other inmates of cell were an old dude who spoke only yiddish, and an immigrant from russia

20:27

merciless shithole..

20:27

he refuses charity, or at least, does not want it; seems to have entered some equilibrium where he works industriously enough at collecting recyclables, and avoids police by being sufficiently familiar with local neighbors to know where to park his shopping carts without getting complaints

20:28

I have no idea why the old guy was there!

20:28

he was incoherent. maybe even tried to speak hebrew, or russian, and simply sounded like yiddish by being so drunk.

20:28

maybe the pigs got tired of asking where to take him.

20:29

signpost: a handful of people i know moved to austin, and it's the kind of people i'd rather not follow there. i guess it's a running joke at this point

20:29

*

signpost moved here in the "Leslie's running for mayor" era, long dead now.

20:29

inundated by tech bros and ilk.

20:30

Leslie was a famous local homeless guy who ran around in a banana hammock.

20:31

*

asciilifeform bought a deliberately unremarkable-looking house on a lot bordered by parks, in sparsely-inhabited outskirt of prev. locale, but not moved there yet, notenuff cycles

20:31

currently having it set up for 'offgridism'

20:31

& other useful, inconspicuous upgrades

20:32

neat, is it further east?

20:32

phf: nah, in shadow of umd

20:32

aah

20:32

gun laws are pretty strict, I imagine.

20:33

signpost: md is somewhere b/w tx and ny in fascism

20:33

can you at least paint your ceiling with an armed intruder?

20:33

*

signpost has the "no obligation to retreat" thing

20:33

in principle. will likely cost you dough in practice

20:34

yeah, this everywhere in the states.

20:34

aha

20:34

would have to deal with some liberal prosecutor.

20:34

best defense in usa is generally 'camouflage'

20:34

like anywhere else

20:35

*

signpost figures either ranch in central texas or land in rural NH within the next year or two.

20:35

neato

20:35

just didn't want to have a housing market collapse mid-move.

20:35

iirc asciilifeform is going from renting to own, so less risk of this.

20:35

aha

20:36

still not 100% price-lockin given extortionate tax. but the latter at least increases at fixed, by statute, rate, traditionally

20:36

yep, as predictable as one can have here.

20:36

*

asciilifeform not under the delusion that box 'can be sold for megaprofit'

20:36

nah, you never get the equity back, just move it around.

20:37

some folx buy into 'flip, profit' and then sad when lolno

20:37

out of curiosity, asciilifeform - off which grids does 'offgridism' imply in your lexicon?

20:38

had some luck with the current place, bought in apr 2020 at the height of plague fear.

20:38

signpost: was that your first house?

20:38

yep

20:38

*

adlai has encountered folx over the years with varying answers to this; typically some variation of power, water, internet

20:38

adlai: well, gold standard is 'mars dome', lol. but can do mains current, at least, the photopanel+battery thing is ~inexpensive nao.

20:39

prior owners had trouble offloading their previous place in CO, ended up saying "uncle" and letting this thing go for cheap.

20:39

'offgrid internet' would require new things

20:39

Logged on 2022-03-28 16:28:19 asciilifeform: and pest's 'if you can decrypt it, it's for you' is pretty good fit for radioism.

20:39

not costs much to drill well, but not sure whether'd want to drink from it here

20:39

*

signpost always dreams of a space station at L3. imagine the quiet.

20:39

what's the point of off the grid if you can't build a family crypt in the basement catacombs

20:39

can't you get abysmally slow internet by using dialup over satellite phone?

20:40

phf: in some locales can (and not even necessarily via 'not caught -- not thief') crypt; not tried tho

20:40

*

adlai has no idea what this would cost for any significant connection

20:40

adlai: price sat phone sometime

20:41

it aint 'off grid' either lol, sorta a contradiction in terms

20:41

really errything on planet3 is 'on grid', just question of which grid

20:42

ultimately in reich yer 'on grid' for so long as you've a postbox where tax bill etc

20:43

adlai: real of the grid people either run pots or p-t-p microwave relay. i n the first case you invest in a "couple of miles" of copper to closest line, in the later your put a tower

20:43

right. 'off grid' for a net connection still involves significant infrastructure, a grid of its own, to enable the endpoint(s) to be free of any specific location.

20:43

in other plague stories, latest post-covid symptom is a sort of electric zap in the chest.

20:43

apparently possibly "intercostal neuralgia"

20:43

*

asciilifeform not contracted this yet

20:44

lol are you counting your stigmatas?

20:44

must be easter egg in the latest covid release

20:44

phf: when do I get a gaggle of devoted followers

20:44

signpost: once you get your blue checkmark

20:45

*

adlai may have finally contracted one of these plagues... may have been regular flu. covid antigen test was negative, although maybe I was healthy by the time I tried it.

20:45

phf: pots or mw relay very much 'grid', yer plugged into a sumthing km or 2 away

20:45

'off grid net' -- pirate shortwave.

20:45

phf: I said devoted. carried around in a palanquin at a minimum.

20:45

lol

20:47

*

asciilifeform re 'grid', has no delusions that cardboard box is 'mars dome', but if californifuckistani-style 'rolling brownouts' will have problems paying bills, so genset + photocells + batteries etc

20:49

don't we have to wait a few hundred years after MP's death before officially starting the church?

20:50

*

adlai must admit having done some rereading of scripture lately

20:52

one of my neighbors has a cat that likes visiting my apartment. when it does not leave after a few minutes, I introduce it to human culture. so far, it appears tolerant of music, prose, and scripture, and only leaves voluntarily when alarmed by loud noises.

20:52

*

signpost was raised fundie as it gets, but maps 100% of current events onto unremarkable human failings.

20:53

the only notable consequence of my efforts is that I poked my head into James Joyce. I'm slightly surprised that I never read any of his work before, only various modern authors who were obviously influenced.

20:53

signpost: i don't think two are at odds, between homer, bible and shakespear you basically cover the whole range of unremarkable human failings.

20:54

I blame subversion.

20:54

phf: I could as easily say "whatever god is, I'm not mad at it for this".

20:55

and yep, bible's not a bad collection of these.

20:55

signpost: have you ever encountered "The Brights" ?

20:55

is this the idiot renaming of "atheist"?

20:56

it's yet another attempt to "herd cats"

20:56

there's some quote (maybe Dawkins?) about how organising atheists is like herding cats

20:57

there's nothing there aside "nuh uh." meanwhile discarding the basis of civilization.

20:57

for quite a while, I was a big fan of their definition, which was "having a worldview devoid of supernatural elements"

20:57

*

signpost is not impressed with any of the modern atheist talkers.

20:58

Dennett is the one whom I've found most readable.

20:58

atheism is cringe

21:00

at some point I might try defining what my views are, although it [atheism] is definitely the easiest label to pick when the issue ever arises.

21:01

Worshipping a false god is ``cringe'', phf.

21:02

There's that George Carlin joke about sun worshipper, at least they can fucking see the sun.

21:03

Nietzsche's entire project was trying to reboot the cultural process of imagining the superlative man, and emulating him.

21:04

*

signpost does not see how civilization can exist without this, in whichever form works.

21:05

joking aside, I wonder whether -- and when -- some new grand cult will arise, that has a stronger technological focus.

21:05

heh, he talked at length about the will to technology too.

21:05

*

signpost oughta start writing some Nietzsche sermons sometime.

21:06

the two recent religious movements that have survived and blossomed seem to be mormonism and scientology; the former doesn't have much to do about new technologies, and the latter doesn't seem to rely on anything fundamentally technological, only to use technology for the ritual mystery

21:07

define recent

21:07

all the various singularity / simulationism crap that verges upon spirituality is still quite solipsistic; some people might be fundamentalist about it, but it doesn't seem to be turning into a major religious movement

21:08

well, on a time scale where individual human generations are still visible, although nowhere near to being the dominating scale

21:09

there are people who "believe in science" with a religious fervor

21:10

conventional semitic religions only convene the congregations once a week; smartphones can lead to a much more vicious groupthink

21:11

PeterL: in the scrollback, you were asking about common lisp vs scheme... did you get a satisfactory answer?

21:11

theres a lot of new religions that have been commercially successful, from 7th day adventists to shinreikyo to falun gong

21:11

signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.

↖ ↖

21:12

adlai: do you have a better answer?

21:12

mormons are probably the richest group i can think of tho, unless you consider the religions in china that are de facto under the thumb of the govt in beijing

21:13

buddhism and all that shite collects an enormous sum of money from chumps every week

21:13

I don't have a religion, so much as a loosely-organized cult with an egregore attached.

21:13

Be I the only such person present?

21:14

PeterL: not really; I used to believe that the channel had a strong CL bias. I recommend CL for practical projects, and only learning Scheme if you are learning purely for an intellectual diversion and do not plan on writing or editing much practical code .

21:14

verisimilitude: define 'egregore' please?

21:15

the nation of islam's relationship with technology is pretty interesting

21:16

goofy eugenicism with black flavors, ufos and stuff, verisimilitude would love it

21:16

*

adlai makes mental note to disambiguate between "nation of islam" and "islamic state"... these names almost decompile to the same point of wordspace

21:16

aum shinrikyo was famously tech oriented

21:17

mormonism does include teaching strong financial fundementals (like avoiding debt), we wish we were all as rich as the Romneys

21:19

adlai: I think that is a simmilar answer to what was said before, Scheme is prettier but CL is more pragmatically useful

21:21

This link seems decent, adlai: https://theosophy.wiki/en/Egregore

21:21

there is one fundamental difference that imo makes Scheme useless as a language for thinking about actual processes, and only useful for reasoning about computations

21:22

in Scheme, symbols are simply variable names that get turned into pointers by the compiler, and they point to some value.

21:23

this seems fine, although in CL, the most common violation of that is that a symbol can be dereferenced separately as a value and as a function, symbols often name types and classes, and there are other namespaces

21:26

in the real world, or at least, in the literature that humans write about the real world, individual units of meaning (whether written words, spoken sounds, or even gestures and icons) have different meanings in different contexts. so I find that CL corresponds much more closely to thought processes, than Scheme.

21:27

that said, I've never used Scheme enough to have my unconscious mind talk to me in Scheme, so I do not have a fair comparison.

21:31

verisimilitude: the link describes what seem to me a rather diverse range of phenomena. would you include, for example, the process generating an IRC log under this umbrella?

21:31

An egregore is similar to the concept of the hivemind.

21:32

A bunch of people all fervently believe in and want something, and work towards it, possibly with minimal interaction.

21:32

*

adlai did not find explicitly stated requirements in the link that the collective process produce a unified single state of agreement

21:33

Well, it's one possible result, anyway.

21:33

I guess it is the most common result

21:34

Through it, I feel the closest thing to a religious fervor I've ever felt.

21:34

how's this definition: an egregore is the multiverse of myths in which archetypes interact with each other.

21:34

this leaves open the question of whether all the myths are logically consistent with other parallel myths.

21:36

perhaps I should finally read "The Golden Bough"; I actually own a dead-tree copy of this.

21:39

No.

21:40

is the fervor you describe the kind of "something is wrong on the Internet" rage?

21:41

otherwise, I'm still failing to understand what you mean by this

21:41

I don't want to elaborate too much.

21:42

People like something, extrapolate it, and it goes from there.

21:46

etymology basically tells me that egregore means something that emerges from conversation.

21:47

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-24#1017064 << you'd find it /highly/ amusing but i wrote that :D

21:47

Logged on 2020-07-24 13:12:54 asciilifeform: for the l0gz, will preserve this lul : (some vermin, in response to verisimilitude's 'tried ada') : 'this is just larping though, I suspect most activities that you do can be glued together with a bunch of shell scripts, with roughly as much reliability requirements.'

21:48

nothing like one of your own priests to write good heresy

21:53

but i also stand by my words. it is larping, of the kind that you yourself often ranted against. using ada doesn't make you an avionics engineer, nor does it sprinkle your code with some magic of serious meaning

↖ ↖

21:53

Do something useful and revive the discussion, phf. It has been dormant for nearly one month.

21:53

Controlling allocations is one component of reliable software, phf.

21:54

A system can be reliable without it, but UNIX isn't such a system.

21:55

For the particular program discussed then, an undo and redo system means unbounded allocations anyway, so it doesn't much matter, after a point.

21:56

I would argue that Ada is much easier to read and understand than c, so if I had to choose between the two I would pick Ada

21:59

Too many fools treat reliable programs as unobtainable, and even mock the idea.

22:04

*

crtdaydreams is unsure if signpost has seen my request for WoT keychange yet

~ 15 minutes ~

22:20

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090680 << cool, you could always write an upload interface, that does whatever it needs to do, but also puts the vpatches into a publically available folder, that i could just scrape on a nightly cycle

22:20

Logged on 2022-03-31 10:15:21 whaack: phf: hey welcome back, i was toying around with the idea of making a vpatch hopper, the idea would be your site btcbase.org/patches , but with some irc interface so that anyone in WoT could update the site

22:28

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-11#1072388 << it works out of the box, non-static, maybe one or two changes. i've posted a patch to the old patches ml

22:28

Logged on 2022-01-11 11:24:06 asciilifeform: iirc there were attempts at 'unofficial' crapple port (phf?) but attempter broke teeth

22:32

but "btcbase upload" again, it's just such an unpleasantly messy problem, which requires either a full power of managed interface, or some kind of command language, maybe a db. lots of state, lots of "if exist then otherwise".

22:33

hm phf wainot a contraption similar to jurov's old one

22:33

upload form, eats a patch and a sig, hardwired pubkeys

22:34

(might want a sanity check where tries to press vpatch before interning tho)

22:34

jurov's thing was for just trb though?

22:35

indeed was. and only uploaded to ml, rather than a nifty graphical viewer

22:35

but patch upload per se aint so hard

22:36

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091126 << i recall these, afaik they existed purely as a reactive ripple from '90s uptick of evangelism wankage

22:36

Logged on 2022-03-31 16:56:25 signpost: is not impressed with any of the modern atheist talkers.

22:36

notice how sorta disappeared

22:36

asciilifeform: i guess the fuck you we'll rewrite it in php approach of tmsr soured me on doing any kind of work that's not either paid or extremely fun :D writing web forms that spawn subprocesses and checks files and just generally /behaves/ rather than shitsall over itself on corner cases is the opposite of fun

22:37

phf: undeniably it's an unsexy proggy. hence wai no one baked yet.

22:38

*

asciilifeform fwiw wrote a gpg verifier in '20; could in principle be turned into this

22:38

and it can verify plain text pgp signatures?

22:39

afaik in last rev. no longer shits self on corners either

22:39

indeed does

22:39

(is a bash condom on top of ffa)

22:40

as of 20c, verifies clearsigns

22:40

given payload , sig, & pubkey

22:40

requires two parts: patch over peh to make it into loadable module you can ffi to, from lisp, and then rewrite to lisp. i've been meaning to do the first part..

22:41

phf: theoretically oughta turn into a clean loadable, is statically linked etc

22:41

yeap

22:41

iirc someone ( adlai ? ) at one pt posted a pure cl gpg verifier

22:41

but can't seem to dig up in l0g

22:41

*

adlai posted pure CL hash algos, does not recall doing gpg

22:42

'litmus' only uses ffa for the mod.exp so really is 2-3ln of cl

22:42

another one of those "nice to have" projects is to do a key verify with ironclad, but man it's such a dull project

22:42

likely would be easier to bake a reasonable mod exp in cl than to ffiize ffa

22:43

could've sworn that this, exactly, was posted. but can't, grr, find

22:43

ffaism for pubkey verification in a gpg substitute is kinda overkill imho, no particular reason for it to be const-cycle

22:44

*

asciilifeform posted it as moar of a practical demo than a necessary util

22:45

i've written at some point a gossip client, in CWEB, that was literally slinging gpg packets, and the sanity check was parsing the incoming gpg data to make sure it's valid before handing it off to gnupg. it was very hairy, php circa 2017 code :>

22:45

*phf, though php also fits

22:45

i recall at least 1 other posted proggy in #t that fit this description ( some german fella )

22:45

i think maybe it was to spec of the old mp spec?

22:46

iirc was a python skin on gpg a la asciilifeform's vtron

22:47

*

asciilifeform to this day sitting on 3 finished (programwise) but unfinished in re text ffa ch's. notenuff cycles..

22:47

the last mathematical piece, in particular: extended gcd

22:48

*

asciilifeform has what afaik is the only constanttime algo for it that doesn't impose nonsensical constraints on inputs

22:48

asciilifeform: you need a very irreverent man to periodically call you names for you to release things on a schedule :p

22:48

lolheh

22:50

*

asciilifeform sorta had 'wind taken from sails' in re ffa when realized that there's ~no chance of usefully realtime packet munging w/ it on any x86 irons

22:51

*

asciilifeform still intends to post the remainder , gpg does 'must die'

22:52

is funny , afaik ffa's const.time barrett is to this day the only 1 published. but no one to date wrote in 'hey, that was useful on my micro..' or the like

22:52

nobody detectably was missing one

22:53

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091134 << these are inherently unstable constructions; asciilifeform suspects that ones which emphasize working tech to any interesting degree simply dun live longenuff to be visible through telescope at all

22:53

Logged on 2022-03-31 17:04:26 adlai: joking aside, I wonder whether -- and when -- some new grand cult will arise, that has a stronger technological focus.

22:53

Logged on 2020-05-17 14:19:24 asciilifeform: thinkin' about it in depth -- the weakness of cults aint that they're not an effective form of organization, from pov of command vertical. rather effective. the weakness is that even nominally clever fuhrer is stuck ordering disciples to do stupid shit, to 'show devotion'. whether it's self-flagellation, 'mortification of flesh', or using mysql, php, etc. the pathology is ultimately same.

22:55

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091145 << yep, entirely aside whether "true". not that I'm implying I hold the cynical view.

22:55

Logged on 2022-03-31 17:11:00 phf: signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.

22:55

that certain folks holding certain books survived where others fell is true in its own sense, anyway.

22:57

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091203 << both symptomatic of the cultural process of meaning having broken, first one yielding to next, yes.

22:57

Logged on 2022-03-31 18:35:45 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091126 << i recall these, afaik they existed purely as a reactive ripple from '90s uptick of evangelism wankage

22:57

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091191 << forgot, will get to it later today or tomorrow.

22:57

Logged on 2022-03-31 18:03:27 crtdaydreams: is unsure if signpost has seen my request for WoT keychange yet

22:58

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091181 << kek

22:58

Logged on 2022-03-31 17:46:43 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-24#1017064 << you'd find it /highly/ amusing but i wrote that :D

22:58

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091163 << lol, nuffin keeps you from having shadowed symbols in scheme. if anyffing is much easier in a lisp1 than a lisp2

22:58

Logged on 2022-03-31 17:25:37 adlai: in the real world, or at least, in the literature that humans write about the real world, individual units of meaning (whether written words, spoken sounds, or even gestures and icons) have different meanings in different contexts. so I find that CL corresponds much more closely to thought processes, than Scheme.

22:59

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091206 << mp's preoccupation with PHP is the same as with his "lick the toilet, bitch".

22:59

Logged on 2022-03-31 18:35:57 phf: asciilifeform: i guess the fuck you we'll rewrite it in php approach of tmsr soured me on doing any kind of work that's not either paid or extremely fun :D writing web forms that spawn subprocesses and checks files and just generally /behaves/ rather than shitsall over itself on corner cases is the opposite of fun

22:59

imho very similar (see earlier logptr)

23:00

'jump through this burning ring nao'

23:00

call one man the root of meaning and he just makes everything mean suck his dick.

23:00

*

signpost learned this, if anything, from the episode.

23:01

funnily enuff process doesn't even require a narcissist; by some accts e.g. stalin wasn't, but ended up surrounded by militant cocksuckers anyway

23:02

yep, bad algo no matter who's in the chair.

23:03

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091184 << worse than this , programming a computer doesn't even always make you have programmed a computer (i.e. automated a work), often enuff all you've done is to have baked yet anuther pseudo-mechanism that req's babysitting

23:03

Logged on 2022-03-31 17:52:13 phf: but i also stand by my words. it is larping, of the kind that you yourself often ranted against. using ada doesn't make you an avionics engineer, nor does it sprinkle your code with some magic of serious meaning

23:05

*

asciilifeform fwiw has seen some commercial adaism, and all of it had an overwhelming diana flavour. what in cl world was once called 'writing fortran in lisp'

23:05

Logged on 2021-06-27 10:53:27 asciilifeform: such folx have precisely 1 approach to solving technical problems; and this approach is amply illustrated on diana's www

23:07

you dun win anyffin from writing proggy nominally 'in ada' but w/ all the pointeristic barf prohibitions switched off, or if you litter it w/ oopism & other knobs in the standard which req the massive runtime.

23:08

phf's darker implication might be 'even if you write a correct and readable proggy, yer still 'larp' given that no one needs a program at all. go write a tractor instead' tho

23:08

^

23:08

i was just typing as much

23:09

That's very insightful. I guess I'll go kill myself now.

23:09

*

asciilifeform puts on wagner

23:09

lol

23:09

on rare occasion one can write a proggy that actually tractors in some interesting & novel way , however

23:09

e.g. thimbronion's pestron imho

23:10

or orig btc

23:10

asciilifeform: doesn't need to be this dark, /someone/ needs a program, but most programming is a compulsive behavior anyway. the trick is to channel it into useful direcmztion

23:10

pgp. etc

23:10

*direction

23:10

The word ``tractor'' isn't a verb.

23:10

that's the trick with every damned thing with humans.

23:10

'programming is almost always a psychiatric disease'(tm)(r)(asciilifeform)

23:11

this is not some profound philosophical point god damn it. i'm saying that if you're just playing with concepts, who cares if its ada, or you wrote it in pascal on a piece of paper. or in php. but making it seem like you're writing avionics when you're writing a toy is masturbation

23:12

is writing an avionics masturbatory if you've no plane ?

23:12

( iirc someone in #t actually admitted to doing precisely this )

23:12

after 5 years of tmsr, resounding yes :D

23:12

I already have a project named ``masturbation''.

23:12

then suppose you've bought the plane.

23:13

asciilifeform: then it's post factum rationalization of clinical behavior

23:13

*

asciilifeform doesn't regret 'wasting' the cycles to derive a closed form rsa. even if never 'buys the plane'

23:14

I can either spend my spare thought on programming and language topics, or become a serial killer or something.

23:15

asciilifeform: nor i my own projects. i'm not even trying to be so categorical. but you know how americans skii right? they go online and research the best skiis first! and then best shoes! and then only the most professional of shoes work! and then best pants! and then on reddit have fights over the best pants, etc.

23:15

for instance, if not had done this, would then have tried 'pest w/ rsa' and ended up either rationalizing away the aspect where enemy can trivially derive yer privkey from processing delays, or (as would hope) trying then to convince folx not to use it

23:15

phf: 'ricers' aha

23:15

there's a new zoomer term for it, funkopop collectors

23:16

erry gen will prolly have own name for the sin

23:16

at least ricers have real cars that they sometimes drive

23:16

*

asciilifeform once made mistake of asking a serious vintage car fella 'when and where do you drive these'

23:17

'in arizona, in '10, took it on a flatbed...' then bows head

23:17

*

signpost drove an 87 300zx til the thing disintegrated.

23:18

the behavior being described comes as kind of fear.

23:18

ever-preparing, adorning oneself with the amulets needed for the journey that ain't ever happening.

23:18

can make a defensible arg that e.g. deriving a closed form rsa is exactly same thing as spending 3y on reddit or in front of tv. in asciilifeform's value system however not. this, may suppose, makes him 'religious' if you like.

23:19

nah, not same thing at all. this is like actually working on the car, driving it 135mph, finding out it starts wanting to lift nose-up after that.

23:19

i.e. asciilifeform will stand with fewer regrets in front of firing squad after having done former vs latter. i.e. 'religion'

23:19

*

signpost wants to add more to the larping thread, but will have to do so later.

23:19

no hurry

23:23

http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=blatta

23:23

neato!

23:24

every time i log in into wintermute it's like the scene from robin hood where he comes back from the crusades. "master robin, is that you??"

23:25

lol

23:25

phf: re 'do what actually pays, instead of larp' -- in '20 asciilifeform went heavily into commercial mode, nao digging in 2 salt mines simult. but not has so much to show for this, not any closer to 'rich' unsurprisingly

23:26

no one 'gets rich' on wage work, newz at 11

23:27

'less poor' is best that can be done with it.

23:28

*

asciilifeform funnily enuff landed most recent coupla gigs as result of folx reading his www. and most recently ffa series.

23:28

so border b/w 'larp' and commercials is not so clear.

23:29

not, of course, to imply that anyone is using asciilifeform's pubs commercially, afaik. satan forbid.

23:29

I hear that ffa things are the new hotness

23:29

lol

23:29

*

asciilifeform recalls zx's thrd

23:29

Logged on 2022-03-28 13:37:30 zx2c4: asciilifeform: at the beginning much more than now. in the early days, vpn companies thought it was a good marketing thing to do. now that's mostly passed and things are a lot tougher. your loper-os.org blurb seems to have some truth in it in my experience

23:30

I don't understand the joke.

23:30

this was like three or four years ago

23:30

asciilifeform: i think rich and poor was never the problem. the aim was really to create a closed economic system. the amish have it, the hassidim have it, the various "families" have it, etc.

23:30

phf: prolly not compat. w/ 'rootless cosmopolitan' folx, sadly

23:31

Furries do it, to an extent.

23:31

*

asciilifeform recalls endless orlov's pieces re subj. even has dead tree compendium of'em somewhere

23:31

verisimilitude: furries have own farms, banks, etc. ??

23:31

Well, not banks, and they don't use farms for the same things.

23:32

lol, they live on sunlight?

23:32

Does asciilifeform know what a furry is?

23:32

ithinkso

23:32

folx who dress in animal skins , 'fuck like tiger!' etc neh

23:33

Yes.

23:33

By ``they don't use farms for the same things'', I was implying they mostly want to fuck the animals.

23:33

aware that they exist, but afaik the only 'own economy' they've got is dedicated porn wwws

23:33

Conventions must be terrible for people with allergies

23:33

lol

23:33

afaik they usually wear synthetic furs

23:33

Still can't believe how many Americans have carpets in their homes on every surface

23:34

verisimilitude: afaik most 'furry' aint proper zoophiles tho

23:34

Absolutely filthy beast people

23:34

*

asciilifeform could be mistaken

23:34

mats: asciilifeform had to search far & wide when switching pads to find w/out the carpet nonsense

23:34

Synthetic or not, collects enormous quantities of crap

23:34

Anyway, yes, they've ``dedicated porn wwws'', which is like a closed economy, as much of one as I'm aware any rootless cosmopolitans have.

23:35

verisimilitude: this aint what phf was discussing tho. was re folx w/ ~actual~ closed loops, amish, raskolniks, etc

23:35

i.e. who can eat w/out ever (or, at least, often) meeting a heathen

23:35

asciilifeform: well, that's my "end of tmsr" take, really when the needs of the republic started conflicting with the needs of the individuals, without republic giving any promise of satisfying those needs... etc. etc. bb living in butt fuck nowhere off mp's pitance, while mp posting pictures of lavish dinners.

23:35

Add in pets, more than two occupants (some with long headhairs and body hair), regular wildfires, usual urban pollution

23:36

phf: aha. will sign under this.

23:36

( as did naggum )

23:36

asciilifeform: but never the less the problem stands. you either write code for the reich (day job), or you write code because that's how you jerk off. from that perspective ada or php make no difference

23:37

I find that foolish thinking.

23:37

phf: even from most spartan commercial pov, there's the nuance that clients actually aint entirely indifferent to how you jerk off

23:37

Logged on 2022-03-31 19:27:28 asciilifeform: funnily enuff landed most recent coupla gigs as result of folx reading his www. and most recently ffa series.

23:38

( tho aint why did it )

23:38

Logged on 2022-03-31 19:17:43 asciilifeform: can make a defensible arg that e.g. deriving a closed form rsa is exactly same thing as spending 3y on reddit or in front of tv. in asciilifeform's value system however not. this, may suppose, makes him 'religious' if you like.

23:39

in fact, funnily enuff, erry asciilifeform contract successively has been w/ sumbody who had read moar of asciilifeform's www than prev.

23:39

where this series converges -- nfi

23:40

asciilifeform: well, yeah, but then your blog is basically like those indian EEs with mit degrees that post their side projects, so they look better when joining microsoft

23:41

phf: somehow 0 indians at that particular shop. w/ snore blogs or otherwise

23:41

if in pov phf asciilifeform's materials not actually distinguishable from ee indian's, aint aboutta try to argue

23:42

asciilifeform: oh pish posh, no need to be so sensitive, i value your skill highly. i'm giving an analogy to make a point!

23:42

and i'm not planning on defending this position too strongly, i like to write programs also, and i benefit from being obsessive about it, and i also wouldn't enjoy if somebody were tell me "why you even do this!"

23:43

i thought thrd was re 'is it actually useful to write programs' which is a 100% legit q

23:43

there's an entirely defensible arg that it almost never is

23:44

simply, noting that asciilifeform in fact running good % of budget on accidental exhaust gas of writing.

23:45

and even that not always doing so puts you in company of indians (proverbial or otherwise), sometimes entire battalion of folx who actually did sumthing at least vaguely interesting on own will.

23:46

( in this particular , 'interesting' in industry that asciilifeform not finds very interesting, but this aint the industry's fault )

23:47

It sickens me, when the people around me look at my work from a purely economic perspective, phf. Such thinking taints the blood, and such blood taints the brain.

23:47

phf: imho 'why you even do this' is a 100% solid q . and if no one asks it, and for long enuff time, folx end up napoleoning in asylum

23:48

There are deities I'd rather worship than Moloch.

23:48

verisimilitude: tbf we still dun know ( verisimilitude holds cards close to chest ) how verisimilitude dodges moloch draft so well

23:48

My programs exist solely for me, and everyone else is merely given access to them.

23:49

That's fair.

23:49

asciilifeform -- programs (well, moar often fixes) for dough.

23:49

iirc most of the folx here do, or once did.

23:49

my bet is an inheritance

23:50

mats: fwiw asciilifeform's guess was terrydavis pension, lol. but we won't know unless fella spills

23:50

asciilifeform: at some point everything we did in tmsr was a kind of force multiplier: logger quotes things, paste server talks to authentication server, there's a coin machine, there's lightweight processes for doing things

23:50

ftr asciilifeform aint got either. so, works for dough.

23:51

i still marvel, when i have to talk to various ugh groups, at how backwards and primitive they are. despite shiny iphone tech or whatever.

23:51

aaha, is interesting how ~nobody even has a reliably logged chat

23:51

(unless sits on some aol-like commercial horror)

23:51

discord has eaten a lot of communities

23:52

every tried searching through telegram? why is such a point. i literally export things from telega and import to btcbase local copy to search stuff

23:52

*ever

23:52

i also export from discord so its actually searchable

23:52

so dumb

23:52

phf: commercial chats are a hilarious dysfunction zoo aha

23:53

asciilifeform: so that's to some extent useful code, which was also written to high standard. there was a sweet spot before we went all avionics engineers when it was a combo of quality code, produced fast to solve problems

23:54

phf: imho general tendency of field tho is opposite, 'fuck, write it in 1d, will throw away anyway' resulting in ~0 usefully reusable anyffin

23:54

rather than 'avionics'

23:55

if even 1 in 10 folx erred in direction of 'avionics w/out plane' there'd be over9000x less breakage & ex-programmers looking to buy amish farms

23:55

s/less/fewer/

23:55

supposing actual honest effort, rather than 'avionics flavour spray', that is

23:55

verisimilitude: less breakage, fewer ex--..

23:56

Yes.

23:56

asciilifeform: hmm, we've diverged on priors at this point :D

23:56

not sure where

23:57

per asciilifeform , software is a 'failed field' largely because ~nobody bothers to actually do a thorough job of ~anything at all. (and not only from lack of commercial incentive). but this aint a seekrit.

23:58

asciilifeform: i think software is a failed field because it lacks meaningful application, which runs downstream from failed society

23:59

Software is used well to stunt the citizenry.

23:59