Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-03-27 | 2022-03-29 →
00:07 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089757 << asciilifeform recs to read into basics of subj. and into detail.
00:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-27 18:21:50 crtdaydreams: The basis would be the FPGA HDL conversion into new lisp fundamentals (lower than either cons or lambda). The core feature would be macros that write the hardware, all HDL code would be in an equiv. "BLOCK" statement. All the prev. features are preserved (homoiconicity, everything can be modified realtime, 7laws etc.) For sanity, hardware-defined code would be generated (for the most part) by macros. Then t
00:08 * asciilifeform suspects that crtdaydreams has rather perverse notion of subj; forgivable for a noob, but srsly oughta rtfm if wants to discuss meaningfully.
00:11 asciilifeform & see also.
~ 3 hours 11 minutes ~
03:23 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089762 << good links. will definitely read through. admittedly I largely forgot iCE40 was freeware, but I have a suspicion that to bake a lisp CPU you'd need more than 8k. The z80 as it stands has 8.5k~.
03:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-27 20:06:57 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089757 << asciilifeform recs to read into basics of subj. and into detail.
~ 48 minutes ~
04:11 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089766 << holy mother of fuck , crtdaydreams, didn't even bother to look at '8k' of ~what~ ? 8k LUTs in the ice8k, vs 8k ~transistors~ in z80, lol!
04:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-27 23:22:10 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089762 << good links. will definitely read through. admittedly I largely forgot iCE40 was freeware, but I have a suspicion that to bake a lisp CPU you'd need more than 8k. The z80 as it stands has 8.5k~.
04:12 asciilifeform ice40 lut for ref.
04:17 asciilifeform z80 + buncha periphs comfortably fits in the 8k.
04:18 asciilifeform e.g. i386 wouldn't. nor the bolix ivory, tho conceivably a compat. item sans the massive cache, could
04:19 * crtdaydreams is slightly retarded
04:19 crtdaydreams plz excuse my noob
04:19 * crtdaydreams will read the docs and ~fully understand them~ before any further comment
04:19 * asciilifeform recs to read the intro materials, get a feel for what weighs how much, etc
04:20 asciilifeform get the 20$ demo board, experiment, if genuinely interested in subj.
04:20 asciilifeform it dun take megabux.
04:20 crtdaydreams ^^ ye. thought abt it last year but had school and job, so no time anyways
04:20 asciilifeform dun take all that much time to do some helloworlds
04:21 crtdaydreams er even w/ out knowledge of C?
04:21 asciilifeform no c req'd
04:21 crtdaydreams || asm?
04:21 asciilifeform nope
04:21 asciilifeform ~all of verilog would fit in a brochure
04:22 crtdaydreams I started learning verilog for a little bit, at same time as I considered buying fpga
04:22 crtdaydreams but completely forgot
04:22 asciilifeform see the earlier link.
04:23 * asciilifeform bbl
04:23 crtdaydreams Ye, Very good to have something to follow along with.
04:23 crtdaydreams iirc there was another course that did ~errything~ from "nand to tetris"
04:24 crtdaydreams seen some pretty mixed ratings
04:25 * crtdaydreams would like to step back and just get mp-wp & dulap going 1st
~ 56 minutes ~
05:22 mangol unrelated continuation, [https://www.linkedin.com/in/uncle-al-schwartz-317028b][Uncle Al Schwartz
05:22 mangol ] has a LinkedIn
05:23 mangol newlines dammit. should set up irc in emacs
05:25 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089773 << who isn't. some just hide it better than others
05:25 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 00:18:23 crtdaydreams: is slightly retarded
05:29 mangol case in point, only now realized that "bolix" is a contraction of "symbolics"
05:29 mangol x made me think it's something to do with unix, lol
05:43 verisimilitude Don't feel bad; asciilifeform's language habits are atrocious.
05:53 mats tether is now down to 33% of the stablecoin market, according to https://www.defipulse.com/usd
~ 16 minutes ~
06:09 mangol re: symbolics, i wonder how much their IP is worth, and why the rich lispers haven't got together, bought, and open sourced all of it
06:10 mangol PG's family is nearly billionaires from ycombinator iirc. norvig is rich from google. even if smbx ip costs a million, they could easily do it
~ 40 minutes ~
06:51 mangol whaack: asciilifeform: re http://ztkfg.com/2020/01/holy-shit-lizard-hitlers-scheme-to-scare-people-away-from-non-https-sites-is-working/
06:51 mangol is there a thorough explainer of the SSL/TLS saga somewhere?
06:52 mangol for noobs. the basic problems are 1) centralized certificate authorities that are in states' pocket; 2) crypto probably backdoored ??
~ 1 hours 53 minutes ~
08:45 verisimilitude It's also unnecessary.
08:46 verisimilitude It's a constant moving goal, which is great for those who like to destroy.
08:48 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089799 << previously misinterpreted as "bollocks"
08:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 01:28:37 mangol: case in point, only now realized that "bolix" is a contraction of "symbolics"
08:49 crtdaydreams way funnier imo
~ 34 minutes ~
09:24 mangol that's the pronounciation i read as well. assumed it's intentional
~ 2 hours 29 minutes ~
11:53 crtdaydreams I'm just going to put this here.
~ 1 hours 58 minutes ~
13:51 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089794 << rip
13:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 01:21:28 mangol: unrelated continuation, [https://www.linkedin.com/in/uncle-al-schwartz-317028b][Uncle Al Schwartz
13:54 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089803 << amply discussed in the old logs.
13:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 02:09:00 mangol: re: symbolics, i wonder how much their IP is worth, and why the rich lispers haven't got together, bought, and open sourced all of it
13:54 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-05-12 asciilifeform: phf: last thing dks said to me was that the rights to the whole shebang were bought at auction by prof j mallery of mit/nsa.
13:54 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-12-18 asciilifeform: ( iirc mallery 'bought' the 'properties' for an amt that does not by many zeroes exceed what asciilifeform bought the 1 box for . entirely a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831755 scenario, near as i can tell. )
13:54 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-11-14 asciilifeform: Kalman was hired after that by Symbolics Technology, Inc., who had acquired the assets of Symbolics from the bankruptcy court, to work on further productizing the emulator for the Alpha. This was used by John Mallery at MIT to run his document distribution system for the White House during the Clinton presidency. When the owners of that venture decided that a financial company had no business owning a computer com
13:55 asciilifeform and see also. loox like not even the ancient support contract paid since '15 -- unless under the table
13:56 asciilifeform afaik still owned by j. mallery, who most likely a minor-league nsa stooge.
13:57 * asciilifeform can think of over9000 motivations for the reich to keep the thing dead & deeply buried.
13:58 asciilifeform meanwhile, cement testbed synced !
13:58 asciilifeform successful test.
13:59 asciilifeform 17 feb -- 28 mar.
14:00 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
14:00 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $47737.09
14:00 asciilifeform !w poll
14:00 watchglass Polling 15 nodes...
14:00 watchglass 94.176.238.102:8333 : Could not connect!
14:00 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.091s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.162s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:00 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.173s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.205s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.261s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:00 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.259s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=729395 (Operator: whaack)
14:00 watchglass 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.338s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395
14:00 watchglass 75.106.222.93:8333 : Could not connect!
14:00 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.609s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729395
14:01 watchglass 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.484s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=388215 (Operator: whaack)
14:02 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
14:03 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089827 << correction -- synced up to cement. atm still in 723k's (past cement)
14:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 09:58:14 asciilifeform: 17 feb -- 28 mar.
14:07 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089807 << twofold: pkiism per se is a backdoor; while the implementation itself is deliberately over9000 complex, and neverending source of 'heartbleed'-style 'bugs'
14:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 02:51:43 mangol: for noobs. the basic problems are 1) centralized certificate authorities that are in states' pocket; 2) crypto probably backdoored ??
14:08 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089804 << what diff would it make if 1 nsa stooge were to 'buy it from' anuther ?
14:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 02:10:00 mangol: PG's family is nearly billionaires from ycombinator iirc. norvig is rich from google. even if smbx ip costs a million, they could easily do it
14:09 asciilifeform the goods will stay buried.
14:10 PeterL maybe they will have a sudden philanthropic urge, hand asciilifeform the source and a bag of gold and say "go fix it"?
14:10 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089803 << for ~2decades nao, rumours were cultivated that 'it'll be opensourced', and afaik simply to put braked on serious reversing work.
14:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 02:09:00 mangol: re: symbolics, i wonder how much their IP is worth, and why the rich lispers haven't got together, bought, and open sourced all of it
14:10 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-03-10 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: since '09 or so i was one of very few people publicly interested in reversing the bolix gear. and apparently ~all of the aficionados, saw me as 'dangerous fool' who 'might piss off dks'...
14:10 PeterL since we are spending their money for them, why not have them pay to fix things the way we like?
14:11 asciilifeform PeterL: per reich , is already 'fixed' satisfactorily.
14:11 PeterL aha
14:11 asciilifeform i.e. unhappened.
14:11 asciilifeform *brakes
14:13 asciilifeform PeterL: at this pt, no one even knows if the still seekrit sources (to e.g. bolix's 'ns' cmos cad) even ~still exist~)
14:14 asciilifeform while the rest is right there in the warez, can run right nao.
14:14 asciilifeform see also.
14:15 asciilifeform the src of the (buggy) Official emulator has been on shithub for some yrs.
14:16 asciilifeform afaik no one even tried to censor.
14:17 asciilifeform afaik the only remaining tasks for a hypothetical spy hero is src for the ivory cpu per se, and the 'ns' cad in which written.
14:17 asciilifeform supposing these even preserved anywhere.
14:19 * asciilifeform has 5 'ivory' cpu stashed, 4 of'em brand-new, for microscopy, for which to this day 0 time/budget
14:19 asciilifeform afaik bought up all the spares dks was willing to part with.
14:19 asciilifeform (either that, or he took'em off the market when discovered who was buying and why)
14:20 asciilifeform for a while he was letting'em (cpu in orig. packaging) for ~500$ ea.
~ 38 minutes ~
14:59 whaack !w probe 103.6.212.28
14:59 watchglass 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.664s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=388390
15:05 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089805 << I don't have a location for a detailed list of all the problems of SSL. It does boil down too the central authority problem, HTTPS is we-pick-your-wot-ratings-for-you. Also note that setting up HTTPS means requests to your site get tagged (and likely stored) in Goolag's mega DB.
15:05 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-28 06:51:01 mangol: whaack: asciilifeform: re http://ztkfg.com/2020/01/holy-shit-lizard-hitlers-scheme-to-scare-people-away-from-non-https-sites-is-working/
15:06 whaack down to*
15:12 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089744 << been spending copious amount of time in the water
15:12 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-27 21:49:47 asciilifeform: !q seen whaack
15:22 mangol i.e. like net neutrality, rehearsal for more comprehensive social credit system
15:23 mangol central bank digital currency / health passport maybe the next moves in that space
~ 1 hours 20 minutes ~
16:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089876 << attempt to make such list would resemble 'list all problems with eating glass'.
16:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 11:04:41 whaack: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089805 << I don't have a location for a detailed list of all the problems of SSL. It does boil down too the central authority problem, HTTPS is we-pick-your-wot-ratings-for-you. Also note that setting up HTTPS means requests to your site get tagged (and likely stored) in Goolag's mega DB.
16:47 mangol searched logs for openbsd and is nothing sacred? part II
16:47 bitbot Logged on 2020-11-01 12:27:26 shinohai: https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/5bde2954c180034a27b079acaff46073dc75139b <<< I just noticed TrannyBSD did this.
16:47 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-26 17:35:59 mangol: zlib - is nothing sacred?
16:48 mangol "some language improvements"
16:49 mangol it's nice how the SJWism goes hand in hand with vague corporate language. next up, plugging security holes = "some reliability improvements"
16:59 asciilifeform lol
~ 22 minutes ~
17:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089854 << lulzy how many folx who oughta know better think that this kinda thing actually happens.
17:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 10:09:23 PeterL: maybe they will have a sudden philanthropic urge, hand asciilifeform the source and a bag of gold and say "go fix it"?
17:21 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-04-13 zx2c4: mircea_popescu: some time, though of course not enough to support a whole project for a whole year. i'm wondering about great flowering riches
17:22 signpost https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/170281?v=4 << these always look like they want to eat a gun.
17:22 signpost creature from shinohai's link
17:22 asciilifeform ( 'philanthropy' -- money laundering & meritwashing. )
17:23 asciilifeform signpost: fella loox like sad hobo
17:27 asciilifeform in further thread necromancy, d00d's donation box to this day not 'flowering' anymoar than anybody else's
17:27 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-04-13 zx2c4: to put differently, if 2000 BTC suddenly showed up in 1ASnTs4UjXKR8tHnLi9yG42n42hbFYV2um, I'd be quite happy and don't think i'd be worse off
17:28 asciilifeform ( apparently addr still same today as was then )
17:28 * asciilifeform remembers that zx2c4 is nominally tuned in. invited to comment.
17:32 signpost https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/here-are-all-latest-news-and-developments-ukraine-war-march-28 << this is getting good.
17:33 signpost "Russian lawmaker Abramov says G7's refusal to pay in Russian roubles for gas will definitely lead to a halt in supplies."
17:33 asciilifeform signpost: ftr ukrs gettin' ru gas for ~20y w/out payin' ~anyffin
17:33 asciilifeform even nao.
17:34 zx2c4 Yes, BTC address still the same on that page.
17:34 zx2c4 Ahhh back when I panhandled and mircea got angry
17:34 asciilifeform zx2c4: iirc yer proggy is used by over9000 today. and still evidently no 'philanthropists' eh
17:35 * signpost loves wireguard, using currently.
17:35 * asciilifeform recently ran into it when a client took it up
17:35 zx2c4 asciilifeform: indeed the project is massive but no bitcoinbenefactor has swept in with the millions
17:36 asciilifeform see also...
17:36 zx2c4 i'm still doing it "full time" and just sort of living on whatever i can get from whomever - companies, non profit grants, etc
17:36 asciilifeform aa, so they donate, but in saecular moneys rather than btc?
17:37 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089904 << looking forward to when europe refuses to pay, continues to slurp.
17:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 13:33:01 asciilifeform: signpost: ftr ukrs gettin' ru gas for ~20y w/out payin' ~anyffin
17:38 zx2c4 asciilifeform: at the beginning much more than now. in the early days, vpn companies thought it was a good marketing thing to do. now that's mostly passed and things are a lot tougher. your loper-os.org blurb seems to have some truth in it in my experience
17:39 zx2c4 i'd say generally that it's not a terrific situation, but i do intend to keep freesoftwaring for as long as i feasibly can, and hopefully some luck will come my way at some point
17:40 zx2c4 for the last few months ive been fixing the linux kernel rng, and obviously nobody with money cares about that
17:41 asciilifeform zx2c4: pretty typical; you can write whatever proggy, that saves whatever mega-dough for over9000 users, and see, if yer lucky, some pennies in hat
17:41 zx2c4 yulllp
17:41 asciilifeform zx2c4: fwiw long ago asciilifeform solved rng problem on pc inexpensively; 0 surprises for guessing how much money from it, etc
17:42 asciilifeform *0 prizes
17:42 zx2c4 hah.
17:43 asciilifeform iirc there was a fella writing kernel driver for it at one pt. vanished into the night.
17:43 zx2c4 in terms of _hardware_ now a days people who want that just use rdrand or a tpm or whatever and call it "good enough", even if you cant audit it and it might be backdoored etc
17:44 asciilifeform well not 'now a days' but for decade+ nao
17:44 zx2c4 At the very least, linux 5.18 now hashes all rdrand values, which removes one kind of backdoor potential
17:44 asciilifeform who wants to build auditable+unwhitened rng, can do so, all schematics, srcs, posted, in '16.
17:44 zx2c4 that's a cool project
17:45 asciilifeform zx2c4: the most interesting part was the discovery that ~nobody gives rat's arse
17:45 signpost backdoorism is more a feature than bug to most who would otherwise pay.
17:46 zx2c4 asciilifeform: Yea... I think most people generally figure their OS rng is "good enough" -- that interrupts and disk seek times and mouse movements and whatever else combine together to do something passable
17:47 asciilifeform 1990s state of art, aha.
17:47 * asciilifeform recalls msdos util that used jitter of cpu clock vs rtc's
17:48 zx2c4 asciilifeform: linus has "reinvented" the cycle counter jitter stuff on linux
17:48 zx2c4 the "linus jitter dance" in https://www.zx2c4.com/projects/linux-rng-5.17-5.18/
17:48 asciilifeform see also
17:48 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
17:48 zx2c4 https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/crng/random.git/commit/?id=50ee7529ec45
17:49 signpost huh, does this mean early entropy is degraded on old platforms with this patch?
17:50 signpost "This only works when you have a high-frequency time stamp
17:50 signpost counter available, but that's the case on all modern x86 CPU's, and on
17:50 signpost most other modern CPU's too.
17:50 signpost "
17:50 asciilifeform 'worx great' 'nobody complains' just like nobody complained about the debianized rng until yrs after the fact..
17:51 zx2c4 Good old debianrng
17:52 asciilifeform nor is any aspect of the hfts behaviour actually guaranteed (can do moar or less whatever it wants under hypervisors, for instance)
17:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089915 << will slurp until turned off, why not
17:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 13:36:35 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089904 << looking forward to when europe refuses to pay, continues to slurp.
17:56 * asciilifeform recalls episode from many yrs ago when switched isps, from 'cable' to fiber, and 2y later found that cable modem still connects, gets ip
17:58 signpost heh, nice additional bandwidth.
17:59 asciilifeform indeed, if had thought of powering it up
18:00 * signpost recalls many years ago bonding a whole cul-de-sac's worth of wifi connections, didn't even reach 1/20th of current connection speed.
18:00 * asciilifeform ran off exactly such a contraption when was a student
18:00 asciilifeform was 100kb/s on a good day
18:00 signpost dad: "what in the hell are all these antennas in your room" me:"experiment!!"
18:01 signpost yeah, fun was just in the doing.
18:01 signpost upstack, will assume that my oldenboxen have no business on 5.18 kernel
18:05 * asciilifeform ignores new kernels unless new iron incompat. w/ old
18:05 asciilifeform ... and next time will prolly simply backport the driv
18:08 verisimilitude I'm accustomed to getting a connection measured in dozens of kibibytes per second.
18:08 verisimilitude My ``fast'' connection gets close to one mebibyte per second, I believe.
18:09 verisimilitude Leaving the machine on for a twenty hour download helps build character.
18:09 verisimilitude Overnight, that is.
18:10 verisimilitude Hello, zx2c4; I don't use Wireguard, but I do recall an entertaining presentation about it.
18:12 asciilifeform verisimilitude: dialup ?
18:13 verisimilitude Sure, it's close.
18:15 signpost wherein we find verisimilitude lives in a rural town in tibet, learned english by reading /pol/
18:15 asciilifeform lol
~ 30 minutes ~
18:46 PeterL verisimilitude: I didn't want to be the one to ask, but I am curious: what sort of wacky position are you using that it hurts your wrists?
18:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-26 20:22:18 verisimilitude: No, I stopped masturbating often because it was bad for my wrists.
~ 41 minutes ~
19:27 verisimilitude It's simply not good, PeterL.
19:40 signpost $ticker btc usd
19:40 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $48063.69
19:51 verisimilitude I don't believe I've ever used a computer which met even very low expectations.
19:52 verisimilitude Just running Emacs and a few other programs without crashing or freezing isn't met.
19:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: how often yer emacs crashes / freezes ?
19:53 verisimilitude Well, until I bought the Pinebook Pro, maybe a few times a year.
19:54 asciilifeform maybe rubbish iron ?
19:54 verisimilitude See, this shitty software doesn't deserve that doubt.
19:54 * asciilifeform has that box, but is gathering dust for yrs nao, never got to any serious attempt to bake a dulap-gentoo for it
19:54 verisimilitude With software failures like this, who needs hardware failures?
19:55 verisimilitude It's the desktop environment which is the issue.
19:55 verisimilitude I've never experienced such odd graphical failures before.
19:57 * signpost wouldn't rule out bugs in the gpu driver
19:57 verisimilitude Does it really matter?
19:58 verisimilitude At least it doesn't have a fan, or that would've failed by now too.
19:59 * signpost also bought pinebook pro, now collecting dust
19:59 asciilifeform in past 20y seems were only 2 kinds of lappy -- the kind where fan, and sounds like shop vac, and the kind that overheats & melts down
19:59 asciilifeform sometimes you get '2 for price of 1'
19:59 verisimilitude If I couldn't get up and leave the machine, to do something else, I'd lose my mind.
20:00 asciilifeform signpost: fwiw asciilifeform got nowhere in the process of trying to get hygienic xorg going on it
20:00 asciilifeform ( would've encountered identical boojum w/ rk, but never attempted a non-headless rk )
20:00 * signpost firmly in the fuck-it, will use a recent x1 carbon for portable machine, and assume it's as private as any public park bench.
20:01 asciilifeform signpost: dunthink i've used that one ( presumably moar recent than x60 ? )
20:01 verisimilitude I don't trust the Pinebook Pro anyway, but it would be nice to be able to trust it just a little.
20:01 signpost yeah, it's their thinputer.
20:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: was pushed as 'lappy w/ open schematics', 'blobless boot', etc. and asciilifeform bought under the notion that he could get rk-gentoo goin' on it
20:02 asciilifeform to add insult to injury, ended up with a unit w/ oddball heathen keyboard layout , too ( regular ones were sold out )
20:02 verisimilitude I'm waiting for OpenBSD to have a port, so I can get something.
20:02 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what's missing ?
20:02 * asciilifeform guesses -- vga
20:03 verisimilitude It locks up randomly is what's the issue.
20:03 verisimilitude It's completely unreliable.
20:03 verisimilitude I don't even know how to have it fsck at boot.
20:03 asciilifeform verisimilitude: dies silently (i.e. nuffin in logs re e.g. thermals, etc) ?
20:03 verisimilitude No, I have to hold down the power button.
20:04 verisimilitude It can't go two weeks without a reboot, whereas the old Thinkpad can go years.
20:05 * asciilifeform encountered this kinda thing many times, but typically on the ancient opterons he uses, where capacitor plague, rather than new laps
20:05 signpost two categories of hardware in my mind. one, old enough that culture hadn't rotted to the point of backdooring being an industry standard, or two, recent item that had the wave of money poured over it to smooth the most egregious sharp edges.
20:05 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform hasn't much experience with the latter
20:06 asciilifeform aside from , i suppose, a fat 'threadripper' a client sent in. running 24/7 for >yr nao
20:07 asciilifeform ( was sent in... 1 part at a time. the little tension wrench the cpu came with was lulzy )
20:07 asciilifeform notbad box, if a bit loud
20:07 * signpost has a 16 core ryzen at home, baby version of ^
20:07 signpost nice for make -j16
20:07 verisimilitude Only batch systems work at all, I suppose.
20:08 signpost considered "public ground" also
20:08 asciilifeform -j48 and then 'shop vac' lol
20:08 asciilifeform but runs.
20:09 asciilifeform prolly 1st box asciilifeform ever had in torture room where emacs not 'felt slow' under syntax highlighting of weighty turds
20:09 signpost to think megacorps spend extra money on white noise machines for the office, rather than moar brrrrrrrr.
20:10 verisimilitude I wonder how writing a sane network operating system would go.
20:10 signpost what's sanity look like here?
20:10 verisimilitude That is, program for a simple router, and have a system that only has a network interface.
20:11 signpost verisimilitude: this'd be a mighty fine item, if it could reliably act as a point-to-point connection with peers.
20:11 signpost semi-permeable membrane
20:12 verisimilitude Basically, have a system that supports multiple protocols, using little code, have it designed so that simpler such servers could be ``scaled'' automatically, and let control happen over things like FTP or a special signed-command protocol.
20:12 verisimilitude I was thinking about the design for a little UDP server I'm going to write soon, and how it could be ``scaled'' indefinitely, and what a general system would look like.
20:14 verisimilitude Have a ``permanent storage'' internal system, and let protocols such as HTTP, Gopher, and FTP be written so: Is my $formatted store available? If so, send it. If not, filter ``permanent storage'' data so, cache it, and then send it.
20:14 signpost imho, why not have the thing just speak "pest", and build all additional functionality a layer above.
20:15 asciilifeform verisimilitude: asciilifeform proposed similar item many yrs ago, 'coupla kB of asm that'd throw signed packets from 1 nic into other'
20:15 asciilifeform naodays obv. Right Thing would be w/ pest.
20:15 verisimilitude So, have an article available as lines. Gopher would want each line followed by newline, and a terminator, if the data should be treated as text. This would be stored in RAM. Similarly, HTTP could take the same data, template it, and store it to serve later requests. Only one copy, the master copy, is stored permanently.
20:16 verisimilitude I wonder how feasible this would be. I could target an MMC at the architecture and easily write kibibytes of machine code, if it were truly so simple.
20:17 asciilifeform 99% of the difficulty is the nic per se.
20:17 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-09-17 asciilifeform: i hunted for years and found what imho is the simplest GB/s-capable nic, the rt8168. here is the linux driver, https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/tree/master/src
20:17 * asciilifeform at one pt in (long-dead) commercial shop burned 6mo+ on attempt to get that nic going 'ab initio', ran aground.
20:18 asciilifeform the rock on which ran aground concretely ftr.
20:18 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-09-17 asciilifeform: phf: the thing needs real-time interrupt handling just to init.
20:18 verisimilitude As figured.
20:18 asciilifeform debugged w/ sagetron, w/out which project would have been ~unthinkable
20:19 asciilifeform apu1 box.
20:19 billymg http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1089990 << newer chips (not sure how new) have "thermal throttling" where slow down the chip if temps get too high or fan too loud per some formula
20:19 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-28 19:59:10 asciilifeform: in past 20y seems were only 2 kinds of lappy -- the kind where fan, and sounds like shop vac, and the kind that overheats & melts down
20:19 asciilifeform billymg: seems like his wedged properly, rather than simply slow
20:20 * signpost figures there oughta be a few folks here that can afford to go on a small hardware adventure sometime around 2024, assuming north america isn't covered in radioactive cobalt by then.
20:21 asciilifeform signpost: what do you have in mind ?
20:21 verisimilitude I'm interested.
20:21 verisimilitude I could handle the firmware, or microcode.
20:21 signpost the network-edge pest membrane is interesting to me.
20:22 asciilifeform it's the troo way to do line-rate pestron.
20:23 asciilifeform ideally would fpga instead of apu1's cpu, do the sha384 thing 'in iron', easily gb/s eating/shitting
20:23 asciilifeform ditto serpentism
20:24 signpost yep, mighty fine thing to exist.
20:24 * asciilifeform wrote the rudiments of serpent for ice40, never had the cycles to finish
20:24 asciilifeform interestingly to this day there aint one published anywhere afaik
20:24 asciilifeform (for any fpga)
20:25 * asciilifeform orig. wanted to bake an iron disk crypter w/ it
20:25 signpost nomoar financial suicide missions, but if our dark lord BTC permits, imho must.
20:25 verisimilitude My proposal was more general than just Pest, but could include it.
20:25 verisimilitude Financial suicide missions require bodies to suicide.
20:26 asciilifeform errybody's on suicide mission, just some slower, others faster, lol
20:26 * signpost just means slower, such that item gets to see the day.
20:27 verisimilitude I mean a financial suicide mission requires a financial body to suicide, asciilifeform.
20:27 asciilifeform signpost: the other irresistible feature of hypothetical iron pestron, naturally -- radio
20:27 signpost the uwb item is also on my mind, but I didn't want to stack too many skypies at once
20:28 asciilifeform well if you've fpga, it's 'phree', at least in so far as the iron goes
20:29 asciilifeform and pest's 'if you can decrypt it, it's for you' is pretty good fit for radioism.
20:33 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-28#1090037 So the best bet, currently, is to massively trim down a Linux kernel and just run, say, one process?
20:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 16:16:10 asciilifeform: 99% of the difficulty is the nic per se.
20:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: loses 100% of the point
20:40 verisimilitude Yes.
20:44 asciilifeform approx. how long you have to weigh a packet to run gb/s.
20:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-23 15:18:42 asciilifeform: a single cpu would need to process each packet inside ~4.41uS.
20:44 asciilifeform ~may~ be doable in tight asm on apu1 (w/out fpgaism) running absolutely nuffin else, w/ entire 'kernel' fitting in l0 cache.
20:45 asciilifeform for 100m/s, multiply by 10.
20:45 asciilifeform if certain that can use both cores -- by 2.
20:46 asciilifeform obv. also will depend on # of peers, also.
20:47 asciilifeform for reasoning re subj, must assume that all 'ddos' packets are replays of recent, valid ones from peers.
20:47 asciilifeform (i.e. worst case.)
20:47 asciilifeform i.e. within that interval must be able to decrypt ~and~ dedupe.
20:48 asciilifeform theoretically if yer pestron can't keep up with line rate, still usable (but will be subjectively slower), situation equivalent to random loss
20:49 asciilifeform and naturally you'll need a tight impl. of whole protocol, or not much point to the exercise.
20:49 signpost if I may ask a few stupid questions, is it a reasonable model to imagine that packet comes in, transits friend/foe process, and is written in decrypted form to some memory space addressable by another system?
20:50 asciilifeform signpost: friend/foe requires most of the protocol, neh
20:50 asciilifeform ( or how to distinguish 'friend' from 'enemy replay of friend' )
20:50 signpost yeah, not saying this process is trivial, just wondering at what the other side of the membrane looks like.
20:50 asciilifeform the other side, would expect, talks to console.
20:51 * asciilifeform not sees much pt in such box if doesn't implement entire pest
20:52 asciilifeform if it dun dedupe, then trivial to overwhelm whatever's downstream
20:52 signpost yup, I'm not questioning that.
20:52 verisimilitude The other side should be an append-only record log.
20:53 signpost right, I'm questioning into at what point the newly baked hardware item hands off to another system, and in what form.
20:54 signpost currently there's an implementation that speaks IRC on the other side. if the hardware item does the same, brings in having to implement tcp, which I assume would be hefty.
20:54 verisimilitude Well, a public log could use a simple protocol.
20:54 asciilifeform signpost: most obv. shape would imho be where 1 jack 'to wild' and other to lan, and on the latter irc console listener
20:54 verisimilitude Otherwise, something specialized be needed.
20:55 verisimilitude A network operating system would do well to have a trusted serial port, say, for easy physical access.
20:55 asciilifeform signpost: not necessarily hefty, as it dun get exposed to planet and dun need to support >1 connection at time
20:55 asciilifeform easily serialport aha
20:55 asciilifeform no tcp then needed at all
20:55 asciilifeform ( e.g. apu1 has 1 soldered on already )
20:55 * asciilifeform talked to his apu1 experiments largely via serialport
20:55 signpost serial is probably the easiest v1 rear end.
20:56 asciilifeform iirc posted example of 'os' for apu1 which talks over the included uart
20:56 * asciilifeform can't currently turn up in log, if anyone wants, will look later
20:57 signpost can even see use for systems which only serial one way, in.
20:57 asciilifeform well for pestron need 2way
20:58 asciilifeform (at the very least you gotta enwot/enkey it)
20:58 asciilifeform even if it'll only 'listen' rather than speak afterwards
20:58 verisimilitude Have it treat one peer specially, as the user himself.
20:58 * signpost wallettron sent a one-way serial message into a box which shat signed txn to a printer, which I then inspected on a second isolated machine before scanning to send on the net-connected one.
20:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: we're talking about a 'red/black' separator in iron, where 0 secrets travel in/outta 1 of the jacks, tho
20:59 asciilifeform signpost: right, recall
21:00 signpost wasn't perfect, still had a fat-assed linux behind the serial connection, but model indicates the direction I intended to drag it.
21:00 asciilifeform would defo make sense to have wot config go 100% via local serial (if not all of console)
21:01 asciilifeform whole console could easily tho
21:01 signpost can even split these in interesting ways, such that box that must hear is not the same as can issue commands, yeah.
21:01 asciilifeform well yes assumed that's ~whole point of an iron pestron
21:01 * signpost just indicating he's tracking
21:01 asciilifeform 'world' jack physically separate from 'red' jack
21:03 * asciilifeform must bbl
21:04 signpost cya
21:17 signpost ah, to clarify. I was talking about having a box *behind* the pest membrane which can only hear, not send. not talking about the world-side.
21:17 signpost in the wallet case, would still want to be able to issue commands to pest, but prefer the assurance that the wallet service cannot say a damned thing to outside world.
21:18 * signpost bbl also
~ 54 minutes ~
22:12 asciilifeform signpost: seems like in that case you can config the pestron and then connect only 1 pin of the serial port, as desired (tx or rx)
22:13 asciilifeform ^ in the fg example -- only tx (of fg) connected to only rx (of pc)
22:15 asciilifeform for most applications, you want ~some~ kinda 'yes, nuke armed, issue 'BANG' to pop' confirm. tho
~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~
23:23 verisimilitude It would be annoying to get a prompt every time I wanted to launch a nuke.
23:24 verisimilitude I'd expect asciilifeform to support an interface intended for experienced professionals.
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