Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-03-23 | 2022-03-25 →
00:04 asciilifeform mats: in earlier log already
00:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 13:05:52 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in orcistan: 'Russia will now accept payment for gas exports to "unfriendly countries" in rubles only...'
00:04 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087542 << lulzy 'updatism'
00:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 15:19:35 verisimilitude: Getting it right the first time never occurs to them, but they'll get the update mechanism right the first time, ostensibly.
00:05 asciilifeform see also
00:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-22 17:37:22 asciilifeform: at any rate the net is fulla these spews, 'dontcha know, permanently correct software does not exist, could not exist, because reasons' etc
00:06 asciilifeform over9000x moar hilarious in a 'seekoority'-flavoured goilden toilet, in linked item
00:10 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087543 << dun confuse the handpuppets w/ the overlords
00:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 15:20:05 mangol: signpost: agreed to a large extent. it's not that glamorous to be overlord of something like current US or EU
00:10 asciilifeform role of muppet -- indeed unglamorous
00:12 asciilifeform ( see also )
00:12 signpost lol
00:12 * signpost grants the davos reptiles are probably having a fine life.
00:13 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087554 << asciilifeform never grasped what underpins this meme -- where is this 'moar freedom'
00:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 16:03:46 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087534 << that's to be expected. freedom means you can do what you want. when you give more and more freedom, to more and more people, you discover that most people don't want anything constructive.
00:14 asciilifeform current-day reich inmate slaves over9000x moar and gets less of anyffin that matters for it, than medieval serf
~ 3 hours 2 minutes ~
03:17 crtdaydreams hoi, my webshit is up at www.lambdaspace.xyz
03:19 crtdaydreams previous grieviances solved.
03:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-18 22:57:27 signpost: "gee golly I'm self deprecating, and HOW!" etc
03:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-18 22:25:07 signpost: also you're doing a faux salesman voice thing, stop it pls
03:20 crtdaydreams Having some issues with mime.types // css working.
03:20 crtdaydreams It's serving it but as plaintext
03:21 crtdaydreams Should be resolved soon.
~ 2 hours 55 minutes ~
06:16 mangol crtdaydreams: congrats on the website. good selection of links.
06:17 mats https://archive.ph/Qgmwb
06:17 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087591 << that's the joke. when most people get this vaunted "freedom", they'll use it to step on other people's freedom and evade responsibility for the consequences
06:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 20:12:46 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087554 << asciilifeform never grasped what underpins this meme -- where is this 'moar freedom'
06:18 mangol so the quest for more freedom leads inevitably to less freedom
06:19 mangol freedom for the tax office is to tax more people, freedom for the medical establishment is to sell more drugs to more people, etc.
06:20 mangol you need really good genes to stick to the kind of tit-for-tat version of freedom that the theorists fantasize about
06:21 signpost mangol: I've been getting a cloudflare error lately when I try to load archive.today/is/fo/ph
06:21 signpost * mats
06:21 signpost don't know what the deal is, works sometimes.
06:22 mangol complete freedom --> survival of the fittest --> civilizational race to the bottom
06:22 signpost https://community.cloudflare.com/t/archive-today-does-not-resolve-with-1-1-1-1-works-fine-on-other-resolvers/71315 << hah, what fuckers
06:22 * signpost takes that out of the rotation.
06:28 mangol obligatory george carlin on politicians -- "this is the best we can do, folks"
06:34 signpost ah satan bless him; he was a great preacher.
06:40 mats bloomberg guys are right about the free trade agreements
06:41 mats ive raved about the tpp for years
06:41 mats but they havent accounted for the political disruption of bitcoin
06:42 * signpost fell down a hole of US gdp numbers
06:44 signpost iirc chinese manufacturing is almost 2x US.
06:46 mats theres some hope yet that we can shift relatively bloodlessly into a multipolar order
06:47 signpost "This week, Joe Biden is traveling to Europe as the leader of the newly united and reinvigorated free world." << bwahaha
06:47 signpost we're going to have a huge recession, is what.
06:48 signpost and they'll use helicopter money to keep the standard of living destruction out of the official stats.
06:48 mats the germans have doubled their defense budget from 50 to 100bn after decades of endless whining about how they cant afford 2% of gdp
06:48 signpost did that happen recently?
06:48 signpost if so I bet that chaps the hell out of Trump.
06:48 mats and the french have given up on their nonsense adventures in n africa and the sahel
06:49 mats sorta forcefully, the new regime in mali kicked them out, and the iirc legionnaires are now in ro
06:50 mats spent a long ass time fruitlessly fighting jihadists and transnational criminals without any consideration for the economic and ethnic origins underpinning regional conflicts
06:51 mats yes, recently
06:51 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087601 << Thanks, more where that came from :)
06:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 02:16:08 mangol: crtdaydreams: congrats on the website. good selection of links.
06:53 signpost mats: seems just like US to think that now's our chance to lead the world; what else would we say?
06:55 signpost "Biden should pursue a two-stage strategy: First, deepen economic integration among like-minded nations; but leave the door open to autocracies if they become more flexible. China could be wooed toward freedom." << typical American inability to imagine people other than themselves, with different values.
06:55 mats its difficult to sell people on the idea that a humbled usa, as merely another bit player on a map of players, would be good for the americans
06:56 mats but i actually believe that pax americana could endure into the next century if it could see its way to giving up pretenses to planetary hegemony
06:56 mangol the real dread may be that 'muricans end up seeing that a competing value system is better
06:56 signpost I suppose in reading this as persuading a narcissist to believe that the empire shrinking is good, see what you're getting at.
06:57 mangol empire of lies --> all lies come to an end at some point
06:57 signpost they make the thing emitting them insane.
06:57 mats usa can still dominate c/sudamerica, supply the world's deepest capital markets, be a first rate tax haven and resume being a first rate military power
06:58 signpost sure, if you were writing *that* article I'd have agreed with you.
06:58 signpost but I'm not the demo reader for bloomberg.
06:59 signpost re: first rate military power we'd better finish a hypersonic platform. I think people are too terrified to mention the extent of the "missile gap" this time.
07:00 mats help the europeans to stand on their own, to push the russians and chinese back, nurture brazil, iran, turkey, india's economic dominance
07:01 mangol is there an actual method behind the madness of current year reich foreign policy?
07:01 mangol everything they do seems insane, but ru is having a difficult time in ukr
07:02 mats if there's a method beyond accelerationism, i don't see it
07:02 signpost stopping short of total war isn't easy.
07:03 * signpost wagers asciilifeform's also right, and putin had to lie to his own chain of command in setting up the operation due to leaks and treachery.
07:03 mats russia's armed forces will have a better time once they have control of mariupol
07:04 * signpost tapping out. later y'all.
07:05 mangol cya!
07:05 mangol mats: afaict nato play was to drive up (economic & public relations) costs for ru as much as possible
07:05 mats looks like its been very disorganised so far, fighting on three fronts in hopes they can break out in one to pincer with another
07:06 mangol US and EU are a complete mess internally due to covid policy and other mistakes --> mess up RU as well
07:07 mangol and provides a convenient distraction from interal fuckups in the news cycle
07:09 mats i dunno, the covid policy seems like less of a disaster as time goes on
07:10 mats the disorganized approach led to a rapid darwinian rise in cases, and now pretty much the whole population has it
07:11 mats compare to china, which has been tremendously successful applying central power and brutally limiting spread of cases
07:12 mats and now, iirc, the rapid rise of cases in hk now that it has been impossible to leash covid, is 4x the rate it ever was in usa
07:16 mangol gutting the middle class, part xyz, this time on pretext of killer flu
07:16 mats maybe straddling this middle ground between leaving things fully open, where it'd rip through the population and overwhelm hospitals, and totalitarian excellence of lockdowns, was the right call
07:16 mangol billionaires made a killing (lol)
07:16 mangol during covid
07:16 mats i don't give a shit about the middle class
07:16 mangol small businesses not so much
07:18 mangol you don't give a shit about living in a stable society?
07:19 mats i don't buy the premise that a monied middle class is necessary for a stable society
07:20 mats as the knowledge gap grows, probably it is best that the socioeconomic inequality gap also grows
07:22 mats i also don't buy the premise that living in a stable society is good for everyone
07:22 mangol you think people will just suck it up forever? that they struggle to reproduce, own homes, and even to stay employed?
07:22 mats what are they going to do about it?
07:23 mats median person in the west can hardly remember where they placed their half eaten bag of chips in between hours of doom scrolling tiktok
07:24 mats the advance of technology means it takes even less resources to manage ever larger numbers of people
07:24 mats eventually there'll be some culling of the twits that take more than they give, societies will destabilise and then new ones will form
07:27 mats most people who ever lived never had any money, i don't see why this is suddenly necessary because the year is 2022
07:29 mangol how do you control hundreds of millions of people?
07:29 mangol "lies" is the current answer. it's hard to keep escalating that forever
07:33 mats for as long as it lasts, keep giving them shit food made of corn, and cheap drugs like tiktok nflx mcds thc opiates etc
07:35 mats the industrial price of a metric ton of fent is tremendously low, think that atlantic piece said wholesalers were paying $1k usd per metric ton
07:35 mangol the drugs don't work quite as well as they used to
07:35 mats er, meth
07:35 mangol the metaphorical drugs
07:36 mats presumably fent is in the same range though
07:37 mats the technological drugs work just fine
07:38 mats those people don't have the wherewithal to carry a rifle or fight the police
07:39 mats 40% of the us population is obese
07:41 mats they can hardly throw a molotov cocktail further than they can lift a cheeseburger from a tv stand to their mouth
~ 27 minutes ~
08:08 crtdaydreams unrelated thread; mangol: what's your background? You seem to have a very good sense of computronics and the direction computing has headed (i.e. shitware, various unix-isms, bloat). Do have have a background in CS or working for corporate? Also, (I may have missed in the logs) do you have a website or some form of blog?
08:19 mats https://udreview.com/foreign-affairs-column-the-end-of-operation-barkhane
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
09:24 mangol crtdaydreams: https://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html more or less
09:26 mangol no blog or website. i can write if people have specific questions that they want a perspective on
09:28 crtdaydreams ...wait you're the bipolar lisp programmer?!
09:28 * crtdaydreams dies of shock
09:28 mangol there's no "the" bipolar lisp prorammer. it's an archetype; we're all like that :)
09:29 crtdaydreams er, conventionally yes.
09:29 * crtdaydreams begins to wonder at what point he too became ``bipolar''
09:30 mangol ime all idealists are bipolar, not just lispers
09:30 mangol takes 20-30 years to find a palatable lifestyle
09:32 crtdaydreams Interesting to be brought up write in the middle of crafting my first article for 0xcdd.com
09:32 mangol and idealism is inborn afaict. can't think of anyone who suddenly "became" an idealist
09:33 crtdaydreams brain fart. just been writing about ego and persona so you're practically handing me material on a plate here
09:33 mangol the security field is full of bipolars, but they are blessed in that the field is about breaking things. you break something popular, you're cool.
09:34 crtdaydreams Hm. That's a debate for nature vs nurture though. Inborn to what extent?
09:34 mangol bipolar coders are cursed because we wanna build stuff, not break. appetite grows. once you've built a house, you wanna build a cathedral.
09:34 crtdaydreams I.e. early childhood fosters the curiosity and creativity req. for idealism.
09:34 mangol which means you have to convince lots of talented people to do something hard for a long time. famously hard
09:35 crtdaydreams Yeah. I getcha. Big time.
09:36 mangol ime, "idealism" levels of curiosity and creativity are almost completely inborn
09:36 crtdaydreams Perhaps a certain amount of restraint on the brain-to-keyboard is required to filter all the nil thoughts and ideals as I've recently experience first hand.
09:36 mangol parents, friends, school, work try every trick in the book to cramp your style and get you back in line. you suffer but it still doesn't work.
09:37 crtdaydreams Well that's relatively late into childhood. I consider childhood to be <8yo
09:39 crtdaydreams At a young age it's evident that some children are more ``ripples'' than ``waves'' and won't accomplish much. But those that are ``waves'' will only make a splash if they're pushed by sufficient external factors.
09:39 mangol idk. i've met idealistic people who were clearly encouraged as kids, and there's people like me who were not. some scolded even worse than me.
09:40 mangol the encouraged ones are happier and more confident, but the discouraged ones have exactly the same inner drive
09:40 mangol discouraged ones suffer constantly but still do the same stuff as the happy ones
09:40 crtdaydreams I would argue there's a line there. Encouragement or discouragement won't foster the kind of independent creativity of the ``lisper'' archetype.
09:41 mangol yep, independence is inborn
09:41 crtdaydreams What it amounts to is the kind of stimuli.
09:41 mangol can be trained to some degree, but not to the lisper degree
09:42 crtdaydreams imo ``training'' is for dogs. It's like pumping data into a neural net and flagging the response +ve or -ve.
09:43 mangol works well on humans too
09:43 mangol pavlov - that name rings a bell
09:44 crtdaydreams Arguably. Perhaps I'm arguing completely against my point.
09:45 crtdaydreams I don't want to take the easy way out though and shrug it off with "mebbe it's a mix of both?"
09:48 crtdaydreams No. I have to agree. Genetics must play the decisive factor in dependence. Both in stimuli and creative thought.
09:50 crtdaydreams slehp time. \o
~ 49 minutes ~
10:39 mangol ime independence can be cultivated, but only a little bit. independence as a default mode of thought and action is inborn. but my sample isn't extensive
10:40 mangol virtually all good lispers are at the freak end of the independence curve
10:40 mangol whence tarver's essay
10:41 mangol see also The Four Quadrants of Conformism, recent essay by PG (a high-functioning bipolar lisper)
10:43 mangol an interesting thought experiment is that a bunch of lispers would probably btfo of most other coders in a "survival" scenario
10:43 mangol i.e. all the software in the world has died mysteriously and your group has to bootstrap the world from bits
10:44 mangol the survival aspect would force them to cooperate and do grunt work. the disinclination to do these 2 things causes our downfall in conditions of abundance
10:46 mangol also curious re: psychology, it's possible to be kind and independent-minded. those people can have most of their independence beat out of them in social circumstances, but it'll seek other outlets
10:49 mangol crtdaydreams if you've met some people who suddenly became more independent, it's virtually certain that they were always independent, and merely became socially confident
~ 43 minutes ~
11:32 mangol crtdaydreams: re Second Climacs, do you still have enthusiasm for Emacs modernization? if so, please talk to me (via /query if too much spam for #a). i have some ideas.
11:33 mangol strandh is a great asset for lisp, but very loyal to his priorities which are somewhat research'y
~ 2 hours 37 minutes ~
14:10 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087602 << barfed at the inevitable gdp (crock o'shit which fraudulently equates 'intellectual property' and money-printing to physical production) and 'freedom index' idiocy
14:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 02:17:05 mats: https://archive.ph/Qgmwb
14:11 asciilifeform reich evidently will snort own stash all the way to wagner/cyanide finale
14:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087624 << sop since '70s
14:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 02:47:29 signpost: and they'll use helicopter money to keep the standard of living destruction out of the official stats.
~ 47 minutes ~
14:59 billymg http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087741 << shame, it means you didn't make it to this gem: "Freedom is the creed of heroes such as Zelenskiy; anti-liberalism is the creed of monsters who drop bombs on children."
14:59 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-24 14:10:42 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087602 << barfed at the inevitable gdp (crock o'shit which fraudulently equates 'intellectual property' and money-printing to physical production) and 'freedom index' idiocy
14:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 02:17:05 mats: https://archive.ph/Qgmwb
15:03 billymg mats: why not apply this sink or swim philosophy to how well one is able to handle the coof, instead of the excellence of lockdowns?
15:03 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-24 07:20:57 mats: as the knowledge gap grows, probably it is best that the socioeconomic inequality gap also grows
15:03 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-24 07:16:34 mats: maybe straddling this middle ground between leaving things fully open, where it'd rip through the population and overwhelm hospitals, and totalitarian excellence of lockdowns, was the right call
15:03 billymg the way you say, fuck the mentally weak, let them starve, i would say fuck the immunologically weak, let them die
15:13 billymg http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087693 << "The trouble was that none of the 9 were properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine. This is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it. It is also the product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."
15:13 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-24 09:24:52 mangol: crtdaydreams: https://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html more or less
15:16 billymg imo this is something we could work on
15:27 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087746 << could write a perl script to generate these goebbelsisms, and it'd be a short one
15:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 10:58:25 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087741 << shame, it means you didn't make it to this gem: "Freedom is the creed of heroes such as Zelenskiy; anti-liberalism is the creed of monsters who drop bombs on children."
15:28 asciilifeform meanwhile from orc engl. press, apropos.
15:30 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087746 << apparently they've dropped the pretense that they consider middle easterners human.
15:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 10:58:25 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087741 << shame, it means you didn't make it to this gem: "Freedom is the creed of heroes such as Zelenskiy; anti-liberalism is the creed of monsters who drop bombs on children."
15:31 asciilifeform signpost: dropped all kindsa pretenses.
15:31 signpost mmhm
15:32 asciilifeform the cancellation of middle class in the reich that mats was cheering for is moar or less the abandonment of the 'carrot', lizards appear to think 'stick' will suffice 4evah
15:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:16:03 mats: i don't give a shit about the middle class
15:33 signpost this is ignorant of history, but w/e.
15:35 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087689 << reich aint in some kinda 'ancient egyptian' static equilibrium tho. for instance, allegedly there's (or soon) a slowboat with 100k ukrs on its way to usa. who rather different from the portrait given in all kindsa interesting ways.
15:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:38:20 mats: 40% of the us population is obese
15:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:40:41 mats: they can hardly throw a molotov cocktail further than they can lift a cheeseburger from a tv stand to their mouth
15:35 signpost also folks like to imagine they'll be on the winning side of that rotfest.
15:35 asciilifeform not to mention the mexicans et al who already here, came for 'carrot'
15:35 signpost apparently can still pick up kalash, which is more than can be said for the beoble of walmart
15:39 signpost https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-blocks-trans-women-refugees-they-are-men-must-go-back-fight << bwahahahaha
15:40 billymg signpost: saw that, kek
15:40 signpost who will take our lgbtqlmnop when we lose world war 3?
15:43 * signpost recently learned of the "poseidon" system of stealth underwater nukes, apparently meant to send an irradiated wave over a city
15:44 signpost also while we're on it, medvedev had sane-sounding things to say re: why the fuck anyone would want to destabilize russia given what weapons it would leave in resulting failed states.
15:44 * signpost finds
15:45 asciilifeform signpost: according to legend, 'america washer' was 1st proposed in '50s.
15:46 signpost straightforward idea, tsar bomba in a sneaky torpedo, sploosh!
15:46 asciilifeform when unveiled on ru tv in '17, was widely laffed off as '3d cartoon, lol'. similarly laffed off the 'dagger' hypersonic rocket which one can nao watch, complete w/ plasma cloud, on lolcattube
15:47 asciilifeform ( for thread-completeness, the ad had a # of other 'cartoons' the subjects of which not yet observed in the wild: poseidon, a laser gun, coupla other )
15:48 signpost yup, serious weapons, and fielded. iirc the last US hypersonic test broke apart.
15:48 asciilifeform 'idjit orcs, can only make cheap cartoons' etc
15:48 signpost hell, we should've been friends. we'd be on mars already.
15:49 asciilifeform it's rather similar imho to this kinda thinking -- 'eh they're untermenschen, we can fuck'em however we like and what are they gonna do about it?'
15:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:40:41 mats: they can hardly throw a molotov cocktail further than they can lift a cheeseburger from a tv stand to their mouth
15:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:21:41 mats: what are they going to do about it?
15:50 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084990 << question isn't whether "we" can hit back. all RU-sphere discussion I can find is of the "why would you destroy us, such that this will happen?"
15:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 18:51:21 verisimilitude: What's a nuclear submarine, signpost?
15:50 signpost they're not the suicidal party at the table.
15:50 signpost asciilifeform: yep I can see it.
15:51 asciilifeform historically the joak tends to be on the folx who snort own stash and decide 'the current order is the eternal natural order', 'we are the master race'
15:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:20:12 mats: as the knowledge gap grows, probably it is best that the socioeconomic inequality gap also grows
15:51 signpost https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/15 << item mentioned above.
15:53 signpost http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=9hDd << google translate did a pretty good job on it.
15:53 asciilifeform 'america had not come up with good strategists after ww2. they weren't needed. after all, it is always possible to print many green pieces of paper...'
15:54 asciilifeform signpost: loox to be a decent enuff transl
15:54 signpost I imagine 'walking field' was approx 'minefield'
15:55 signpost "How do you like this prospect, gentlemen? Great plan! Bravo, strategists from the State Department and the Capitol! Bravo, K Street Analysts! Bravo, senior members of the Senate, bravo Mr. President! You have already lived your life, you can not be afraid, because at the age of 80 nothing is especially scary." << also a good zinger
15:56 asciilifeform signpost: mno, 'гуляй-поле' (actual toponym in ukristan, where in ru civil war e.g. mahno's anarchists and other merry men) roughly 'free-for-all'
15:56 signpost ah ok
15:57 asciilifeform pediwik re subj
16:01 asciilifeform signpost: the 'controlled chaos' reich.strategy aint any kinda seekrit.
16:01 signpost sure, this isn't revelatory.
16:02 asciilifeform 'spreading -- worx', i.e. the chaos. 'controlled' apparently problem.
16:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-05 13:39:21 asciilifeform: raw_avocado: there's an old su joak re subj. 'scientists announce they have discovered a method to make black caviar from petroleum.' 'when can i buy this in the shop?' 'soon; spreading on bread -- already works! but as for eating, not quite yet...'
16:02 signpost lol, yes
16:02 * signpost reads these because they're more interesting than reading second-hand interpretations.
16:02 asciilifeform defo
16:09 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087776 << fwiw didn't stop'em in '90s. for that matter, usa to this day powered by sov-era pu obtained for ~phree
16:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 11:43:40 signpost: also while we're on it, medvedev had sane-sounding things to say re: why the fuck anyone would want to destabilize russia given what weapons it would leave in resulting failed states.
16:13 asciilifeform orig. reich plan was evidently to set up ru 'colour revolution' in '14 (1st, via 'colour revolution' coup in ukristan; then by having the installed muppet proclaim a 'croat-style' forced assimilation, and when failed, attack -- east provinces; idea was, ru intervenes, sanctioned to death, bankrupt, leaves delish corpse for reich to feast on)
16:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-28 14:45:04 asciilifeform: at one pt, reich installed mole (gorby) and 'won', and feasted on the delish minerals + sawed-up su industrial base & manpower for all of '90s
16:16 signpost https://vimeo.com/224662091 << worth it for the end.
16:17 signpost asciilifeform: yep, plain as day.
16:18 * signpost figures this is many of the same old bastards that were running plays since the cold war.
16:18 signpost and ftr, soviets surely had similar objectives in e.g. central/south america.
16:18 asciilifeform signpost: they weren't very good at south amer. considering results
16:18 signpost not that it means anything; somebody needs to hit the brakes, and Putin certainly wanted to.
16:19 * signpost knows a gent very well who was stomping around there on the nato side.
16:21 mats http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087785 << empirically we know it works on americans, unlikely forever, but few signs of malignant slave riots setting fires to the plantations
16:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 11:48:57 asciilifeform: it's rather similar imho to this kinda thinking -- 'eh they're untermenschen, we can fuck'em however we like and what are they gonna do about it?'
16:23 signpost hilariously, the red necks who ostensibly would, are all walmart-fed soyboys now.
16:23 signpost doubtful by accident.
16:24 asciilifeform mats: atm the printola scam still worx, almost as well as before, folx still lining up go to go usa to pick strawberries in search of middle class miami. still 9000 brands of sausage at 'whole foods', half of population eats'em w/out doin' anyffin that can be described as work, etc
16:24 asciilifeform 'night is young'
16:26 mats my favorite Whole Foods snack is the brand freeze dried fruit
16:27 mats very nice change from sun dried fruit, which has quite a bit more water left in it
16:27 mats gotta be careful not to scarf the whole bag or I get a sugar headache though
16:28 asciilifeform at some pt the favourite catalogue item will be pressed cockroach protein and some % of idjits, having watched old vhs movies, will still sail to miami
16:28 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-01-08 ascii_butugychag: problem is that their notion of 'american' comes from 1980s vhs tapes
16:31 signpost wont it be a bitch when somebody gets a tokamak running just as the candles are lit.
16:31 asciilifeform usa runs on these; the folx mats was alluding to are the 'exhaust product'
16:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-11 08:30:47 asciilifeform: cgra: fact is, not even a sidewalk in usa gets paved w/out a bag of cash to mexicans.
16:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 12:22:17 signpost: hilariously, the red necks who ostensibly would, are all walmart-fed soyboys now.
16:31 * signpost figures the gods are these kind
16:32 signpost asciilifeform: quite a bit of the soy-titted white chubkins working ag and oil
16:32 asciilifeform signpost: ftr asciilifeform doubts that even simult. discovery of antigrav and coldfusion would change much re usa
16:32 signpost they'll take whatever's done to them, apparently.
16:32 asciilifeform these still wouldn't replace the missing working hands.
16:32 signpost asciilifeform: I didn't say here!
16:32 signpost haha
16:32 asciilifeform anywhere, lol
16:36 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087327 The sad thing here is how it's not even hard to write a real-time system in machine code for such a purpose; it's really obvious if the control flow gets utterly incomprehensible and unpredictable.
16:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 12:33:59 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087293 << asciilifeform recalls qnx demo floppy from late '90s, was impressed; and came with all kindsa claims 'used in reactors!' etc. but closed mysteryware, and nfi whether in any sense 'alive' today, not that it'd help any
16:36 verisimilitude I don't think a nuclear reactor is being used for too many separate purposes.
16:37 asciilifeform verisimilitude: easy for some; impossible for others
16:37 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-08-30 asciilifeform: 'motivation from fear is a firecracker, from interest - a nuke' as the americans used to say
16:37 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
16:44 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087529 Most people can't handle freedom, mangol; it follows authoritarianism makes more sense than democracy, at this scale.
16:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 15:11:11 mangol: most people can't handle liberty which will mess up the society. then the strong people come out of the woodwork
16:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: wouldn't it make moar sense to talk about 'most people can't handle' a thing that they've actually ~had~ at some pt and been observed to fail to handle ?
16:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087846 << the reactors afaik still running off pdp11 hand-asmware. e.g. boeing however cppized (to yachtize the difference, obv) and spectacular brick nao
16:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 12:35:47 verisimilitude: I don't think a nuclear reactor is being used for too many separate purposes.
16:55 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-04-23 asciilifeform: tbf ~same can be said for usg, where -- similarly -- the only '100% uptime' items are pdp11/microvax/etc where likewise '70s-'80s lsi and likewise no net etc
16:56 verisimilitude Does it matter, if they believe themselves to have it?
16:58 asciilifeform verisimilitude: they also believe that 'jizzus luvvs us' and all kindsa strange w/ very little connection to anyffin in observable reality
17:01 verisimilitude That's my point.
17:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: elaborate?
17:01 signpost fwiw I consider the "freedom to fail and die" a worthwhile algo, built the largest empire ever to exist.
17:01 signpost the american system rotted the more it abandoned that.
17:02 asciilifeform errybody's got 'freedom to fail and die' neh? or whatami missing
17:03 signpost the american turn into communism is what I'm referencing.
17:04 asciilifeform 'to fail & die' is the 1 'freedom' left there, neh
17:04 signpost fat lotta dole I can go ask for before that comes.
17:05 asciilifeform afaik life in usa 'dole' is a kinda slow-motion execution by drink and corn 'beetus'(tm)
17:05 signpost national suicide as well, so I can't disagree.
17:07 * signpost oughta macroexpand then, to minimal state, private property, strong currency, no safety net, etc
17:08 signpost but these under common law and broad franchise proceeded to present state, so gotta admit "was always broken"
17:08 asciilifeform broke under fdr, in this model
17:08 asciilifeform (w/ lengthy prelude of weakening, 'gilded age', long story)
17:08 signpost was going to name that as a turning point, but nothing in the algo prevented FDRism either. yep.
17:11 asciilifeform per asciilifeform's cosmography, the centralization (which, observe, ate ~all of planet3 ~simult.) was a technologically-inevitable, at given stage process.
17:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-28 15:09:09 asciilifeform: PeterL: in 1900s, as inescapable consequence of industrialization planet3 was carved up into totalitarian reichs. these have gone and will continue to go by various names, issue costumes.
17:12 asciilifeform 1880s-1910s, the great monopolies formed, inevitably merged w/ the state, 1 way or anuther
17:15 signpost yep, I've considered that a reasonable model of yours.
17:15 asciilifeform not original to asciilifeform ( was already ~obv pre-ww2 to over9000 folx )
17:16 asciilifeform ( and see also )
17:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-29 20:28:09 asciilifeform: signpost: the possibility of 'non-communism' at the 20th c. tech level is imho an illusion -- a beautiful dream, if you like.
17:16 * signpost expects next phase is approximately "biome of rotting whale carcass"
17:17 asciilifeform in that phase since '70 or so
17:18 asciilifeform ( w/ the very occasional 'trees growing through asphalt' , see also )
17:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-03-02 12:22:32 asciilifeform: ru writer alex rosov takes the thesis further -- he gives (fairly solid) argument that a decision was made (by bluebloods of 'civilized' world) in 1968 to halt technical progress. ( and, consequently, to nail sovok, because otherwise it'll eat'em, not having 'gotten the memo' that r&d must stop )
17:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-03-02 12:23:39 asciilifeform: semiconductor 'escaped' (again per this cosmography) because a) underestimated and poorly understood by the 'deciders' b) required minimal insight, was pushable 'forward' by sheer 'chinese' plodding, as still (to an extent) happening
17:21 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087859 They're ignorant and stupid.
17:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 13:00:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate?
17:22 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087868 I've watched enough Chinese die due to a lack of government regulation to make me thankful for the big bad government getting in the way of those sweet and pure corporations and businessmen.
17:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 13:06:31 signpost: oughta macroexpand then, to minimal state, private property, strong currency, no safety net, etc
17:22 verisimilitude I've never been killed by an elevator closing on me, and then moving between floors.
17:24 verisimilitude All property is usurpation, signpost. Whoever can take it, and defend it, owns it.
17:25 verisimilitude Any society that values individualism such as that is just going to be overtaken by a similar society, but one in which the same type of people decide to team up for the purpose of destroying it.
17:26 verisimilitude I'd like to be one of those such people, actually.
17:27 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087887 << we're all smart enough to avoid falling into idiotic categories such as these.
17:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 13:21:30 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087868 I've watched enough Chinese die due to a lack of government regulation to make me thankful for the big bad government getting in the way of those sweet and pure corporations and businessmen.
17:27 signpost "big bad govt" and "sweet and pure corporations"
17:28 signpost and of course all peace means the cessation of a prior state of violence.
17:28 signpost usually upon mutually beneficial terms if lasting.
17:30 verisimilitude My point is ``small government'' is a stupid want.
17:30 verisimilitude I was mocking it, signpost.
17:31 verisimilitude The age of ``small government'' has ended for the foreseeable future.
17:31 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the point apparently lost on many is that its size is outcome of a natural process. 'demand small gov' is like to demand that rats be small. in steppe -- small; in dumpster behind mcshitburger joint -- dog-sized; simply function of feed base avail.
17:31 signpost minimal does not mean the same thing as small.
17:32 signpost curious how you apply this standard readily to works on a computer but not this.
17:32 verisimilitude Any ``small government'' will be owned by a ``big government'', without exception.
17:32 signpost perhaps the minimal possible state is larger than this one, even.
17:32 asciilifeform ^
17:32 signpost if you don't wish to listen, what do I care.
17:33 verisimilitude Explain the difference, then.
17:33 asciilifeform state is a tumour, it dun shrink by being asked nicely.
17:33 signpost minimal means closest to the abstract form of the problem it solves.
17:33 signpost no superfluous complexity.
17:34 signpost perhaps we need a larger-and-less-complex state.
17:34 verisimilitude The film ``Starship Troopers'' comes to mind.
17:34 asciilifeform signpost: it dun decomplexify, obv., from 'being asked nicely' either
17:34 signpost hell, I love that film. the book even more readily argued for a kind of fascism.
17:34 asciilifeform afaik the only at-scale decomplexification mechanism known is catastrophic collapse.
17:34 verisimilitude I've yet to read the book.
17:34 signpost film was a bit campy
17:35 * billymg liked the campiness, it felt intentional
17:35 asciilifeform signpost: arguably was moar of a ameri-flavoured jacking off to ancient rome
17:35 signpost anyway, one might imagine the state being larger, yet less convoluted, with cleaner lines of hierarchy.
17:36 verisimilitude Alright; I can agree with that.
17:36 verisimilitude There'd be no copyright system, for one.
17:37 asciilifeform verisimilitude: copyrasty is a reich-and-its-satrapies phenomenon. like the 'greenback'.
17:37 asciilifeform will go to /dev/null w/ the latter
17:38 signpost asciilifeform: iirc whole civilian realm of biznis was subordinated to the military state, not unlike.
17:38 verisimilitude Does the British monarchy centuries ago count as the reich?
17:38 asciilifeform yes.
17:38 verisimilitude Alright.
17:38 signpost problem with this is biznis organizes dick-sucking for the military too.
17:39 signpost stock, yacht, etc
17:42 asciilifeform rather lossy scheme. for comparison, in old time su, conscripts directly used to build houses for generals, requisitioning the req'd materials etc
17:43 asciilifeform was tolerated moar or less openly
17:43 asciilifeform in modern-day 'bananistans', where similarly cannot afford the pretense of separation, afaik, similarly
17:43 signpost hell, that at least results in a skilled underclass if/when they get out.
17:44 signpost which of my neighbors can build a house.
17:44 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087932 What's the issue with this?
17:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 13:42:12 asciilifeform: rather lossy scheme. for comparison, in old time su, conscripts directly used to build houses for generals, requisitioning the req'd materials etc
17:44 * signpost in fact can do woodwork, has lived a weird life.
17:44 asciilifeform signpost: after sufficient whipping -- prolly all of'em
17:44 signpost lol! granted
17:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude: subj -- the supposed separation of 'biz' and 'military' world in current-day reich
17:45 asciilifeform there's all kindsa pretend-separations of this sort
17:45 signpost ah no, was merely reversing their order from the film example.
17:45 signpost business rules; in the film, supposedly the other way around.
17:45 signpost I don't think this is stable for the reasons mentioned
17:45 verisimilitude Sure. It's no different than how we pretend the people pushing obscenity laws don't kill and eat children, asciilifeform.
17:46 signpost e.g. ukr, for whatever stated strategic reasons, is a grinder into which to toss overstock on last-gen weaponry for a while with printola buying.
17:46 asciilifeform point being, there's >1 way to requisition labour. printing green candy wrappers and persuading chumps they're valuable, is only 1 of'em
17:46 asciilifeform there are others.
17:47 verisimilitude Historically, slavery works.
17:48 asciilifeform w/ well-known caveats -- worx
17:48 verisimilitude It worked for the Romans.
17:48 verisimilitude Yes, it went south in the US.
17:48 signpost huh, that's gotta be a character deedbot doesn't like
17:49 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 20th c slavery is moar analogous to sparta's helotry, tho
17:49 asciilifeform signpost: been wondering for a while
17:49 verisimilitude I know little of Sparta.
17:50 verisimilitude Surely deedbot be getting a line as octets?
17:50 asciilifeform verisimilitude: variant where slaves 'too cheap to meter'(tm) and no longer seen as a capital good, to be maintained, but churned through auschwitz-style
17:51 verisimilitude I'd read they needed extreme cruelty to maintain it, but that's it.
17:51 asciilifeform e.g. roman slave had typically moar tolerable existence than today's 'worker'
17:51 signpost fixed some logging, maybe I catch a backtrace
17:52 signpost thing handled all lines prior to part, dunno.
17:52 verisimilitude I'm aware of a Roman holiday in which DOMINVS ET SERVI switched places.
17:52 signpost saturnalia
17:52 asciilifeform signpost: could be an off-by-one or similar
17:52 signpost seems like they were quite the riot
17:52 verisimilitude It's always off-by-one, where are the off-by-two errors?
17:53 * signpost will endeavor to fail more novelly, good sir.
17:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: well there's 'off by over9000' failures-to-terminate, lol
17:53 signpost Yes, it went south in the US.
17:54 signpost nope, not that message
17:54 signpost will check on next part
17:54 verisimilitude Oh, and here I thought my delightful joke was being appreciated.
17:55 verisimilitude Well, were.
17:55 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087962 << problem is they'd rather all slowly rot than have a head cut here and there.
17:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 13:50:58 asciilifeform: e.g. roman slave had typically moar tolerable existence than today's 'worker'
17:56 asciilifeform nobody in practice gets asked what he'd 'rather'
17:56 signpost somehow what they'd rather leaked through, appears
17:57 * signpost bbl gents
17:57 asciilifeform plebes move amoebically within the provided landscape.
17:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-06 18:58:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-06#1082669 << 'people' who behave amoebically (i.e. follow gradient of 'tastier right there right now'). and see also.
17:57 asciilifeform signpost: laters
18:07 verisimilitude My condition has improved, but I notice I tend to switch which arm is feeling worse, daily.
18:10 busybot am i alive?
18:23 verisimilitude I need a better office chair. What are your suggestions?
18:25 verisimilitude Perhaps I should try using one of those inflated ball chairs.
18:25 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-13#1061313
18:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-10-13 11:18:08 signpost: https://www.upliftdesk.com/motion-stool-by-uplift-desk/ << this is the unfortunately named stool I use
18:28 verisimilitude I'll investigate it.
18:28 verisimilitude I appreciate it.
18:29 mats https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/24/business/blackrock-globalization/index.html briefly noted in the previous Bloomberg opinion piece, but not by name
18:33 asciilifeform mats: apropos
18:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 11:28:07 asciilifeform: meanwhile from orc engl. press, apropos.
18:34 asciilifeform the covidiocy ran outta steam, nao reich needed new 'tighten yer belts, plebes, after all, $crisis' wankage; worx a++
18:38 asciilifeform ( and see also )
18:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-10-31 23:13:21 asciilifeform: signpost: in '19 was already clear imho 'they need a worldwar' but also clear that can't afford actual one. so instead organized fictional one
18:43 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087996 https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-receives-nobel-prize-in-medicine-for-ending-covid-pandemic/
18:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 14:33:43 asciilifeform: the covidiocy ran outta steam, nao reich needed new 'tighten yer belts, plebes, after all, $crisis' wankage; worx a++
18:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude: coupla wk-old meme in ru space, 'putin cured covid'
18:44 asciilifeform ( with start of war ~100% of the covidiocy measures in ru switched off like a lamp )
18:45 verisimilitude It's still funny, yes.
18:46 verisimilitude Maybe the next plague will be better, asciilifeform.
18:47 asciilifeform perhaps
18:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 20:55:02 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-15#1084437 << dept. of 'gain of function' doesn't sleep, eh
19:00 mangol why were ru an cn in on the covid hysteria to begin with?
19:01 asciilifeform mangol: only the rulers know for certain. but likely imho combo of 5th column action and misguided belief that buying into the scheme can serve local ends
19:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-07 13:30:11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-07#1082912 << reich indeed seems to be betting heavily on its 5th column. the ones already whining about paying 5x the antebellum going rate for ipnoje xiii etc
19:04 asciilifeform mangol: reich has quite effective tentacles in both.
19:04 mangol 5th column in ru = the miami oligarchs?
19:05 asciilifeform mangol: these largely overseas. there's a much larger miami 'chattering class' there
19:05 asciilifeform reich heavily banking on it for 'colour revolution'.
19:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 13:01:27 asciilifeform: reich's bet is that he's surrounded helplessly by (1) and will be poisoned. ~month into the wank, not happened yet afaik
19:06 asciilifeform it's the reich's algo, for ~100y nao, very seldom changes
19:07 mangol afaict color revolution relies on massive propaganda ops in the target country pre-attack
19:07 verisimilitude ``It's okay to be gay.''
19:07 mangol would be interesting to know how they plan to pull that off in ru
19:09 asciilifeform see e.g. :
19:09 mangol i heard ru shut off Kazakhstan's internet for the last attempt, which is part of why it failed
19:09 asciilifeform 'As soon as they declare war, they take care to have a great many schedules, that are sealed with their common seal, affixed in the most conspicuous places of their enemies’ country. This is carried secretly, and done in many places all at once. In these they promise great rewards to such as shall kill the prince, and lesser in proportion to such as shall kill any other persons who are those on whom, next to the prin
19:09 asciilifeform ce himself, they cast the chief balance of the war. And they double the sum to him that, instead of killing the person so marked out, shall take him alive, and put him in their hands. They offer not only indemnity, but rewards, to such of the persons themselves that are so marked, if they will act against their countrymen. By this means those that are named in their schedules become not only distrustful of their fellow
19:09 asciilifeform -citizens, but are jealous of one another, and are much distracted by fear and danger; for it has often fallen out that many of them, and even the prince himself, have been betrayed, by those in whom they have trusted most; for the rewards that the Utopians offer are so immeasurably great, that there is no sort of crime to which men cannot be drawn by them. They consider the risk that those run who undertake such servi
19:09 asciilifeform ces, and offer a recompense proportioned to the danger—not only a vast deal of gold, but great revenues in lands, that lie among other nations that are their friends, where they may go and enjoy them very securely; and they observe the promises they make of their kind most religiously. They very much approve of this way of corrupting their enemies, though it appears to others to be base and cruel; but they look on it
19:09 asciilifeform as a wise course, to make an end of what would be otherwise a long war, without so much as hazarding one battle to decide it. They think it likewise an act of mercy and love to mankind to prevent the great slaughter of those that must otherwise be killed in the progress of the war, both on their own side and on that of their enemies, by the death of a few that are most guilty; and that in so doing they are kind even t
19:09 asciilifeform o their enemies, and pity them no less than their own people, as knowing that the greater part of them do not engage in the war of their own accord, but are driven into it by the passions of their prince.'
19:09 asciilifeform ( more's 'utopia' naturally )
19:13 asciilifeform worked a++ for century+
19:15 asciilifeform they've not (yet) succeeded in the 'great rewards to such as shall kill the prince' piece, in ru; but so far did ok job in hobbling the war effort in various ways, engineering made-for-tv 'atrocities' (e.g. 'azov' rigs a hospital to blow, throws the switch when ru plane overhead while reich cameras roll) a la yugoslavia, etc
~ 18 minutes ~
19:34 mangol covid and biden really drove home for me in a visceral way that the public will believe absolutely anything when it comes from the right source
19:34 mangol ofc less coddled people have known that for ages
19:34 asciilifeform mangol: tbf nobody knows whether 'public believes'
19:34 asciilifeform ( what'd look diff. if it didn't ? )
19:35 asciilifeform the goebbelses will carry on regardless
19:36 mangol most of my friends and family have been genuinely worried about covid, for example
19:37 asciilifeform somebody sumwhere prolly still 'worried'
19:37 mangol sure, there are still plans to offer a new round of shots
19:37 mangol an encore lol
19:39 mangol if your criterion for belief is unwavering belief, probably very few cases (as with religion). but alarming # of people function as if they believe
19:40 asciilifeform mangol: most folx nod along precisely to the extent req'd to pay their bills.
19:42 mangol ime it's worse than that
19:43 mangol lots of people believed the covid shots were safe and took them when it was socially acceptable to refuse (or where not, safer to lie about it)
19:44 asciilifeform some # thought that the shot might work
19:44 mangol exactly. but taking the risk made no sense
19:46 asciilifeform wasn't obvious that it made no sense, at one pt. asciilifeform used to get flu shots, for instance (never once experienced side effect, and flu is annoying enuff)
19:49 mangol well, new experimental type of vaccine, developed on fast schedule with ~no testing, giant profit motive, trad. vax technology is strangely shunned
19:50 mangol disease looks non-lethal to healthy people and all other covid related policy look like politicians have no idea what they're doing
19:52 mangol strange condemnation of studying and talking about non vax treatments, etc.
19:55 mangol re: other things people believe, the media spin that "US good humanitarians, Putin megalomaniac cartoon villain" is also well received in fi
19:59 signpost unclear for both the vaccine and the virus what long term effects may be, if any.
20:00 * signpost glad to not have had a severe vaccine reaction, nor anything but a mild, annoying cold from covid.
20:01 signpost and no reason at all to have a booster given I had the virus.
20:02 * signpost did opt for the moderna one given pfizer's history, but was 100% a diceroll.
20:04 mats oh good, more vaccine denialism
20:04 signpost bud, your head's bolted into american left media.
20:05 signpost don't know what to tell you, if that's the resolution you're receiving on your end.
20:05 mats irc is async you know
20:06 * signpost is talking about what mangol said also.
20:06 signpost why indeed did they not dump money into attenuated virus vaccines, if not "this is our chance to normalize this product line quickly"
20:08 mats some of these claims wash better than others, but you know, implying the vaccines are risky is unfounded
20:10 signpost notion of risk usually oughta include respect for the unknown.
20:11 signpost ftr what I've read leads me to believe that whatever vaccine reactions there may be, they're probably less risky than protein spike plus whole virus.
20:11 mats there's no longitudinal studies, because it is new, no doubt
20:12 signpost that said, pfizer said "of course it wont transcribe into your DNA" and oops.
20:12 mats that's not a rational response when you're trying to head off a novel virus though now is it
20:12 signpost so, I'm not thrilled to find out what else is in the fog.
20:12 mats being alive is experimental
20:13 signpost leaves out the political matter of who, on whom
20:13 signpost upstack, thought the notion that the american response might've been accidentally effective, in its haphazardness, was pretty amusing.
20:14 signpost giving the fucker a complex surface to deal with.
20:15 signpost thing is, this american liberal mode of "we all know we're in on the lie" gives cover to greater harm than covid ever wrought.
20:15 signpost an example "we figure the error bars on our side-effect estimates are 1-2%, but if we tell them, a few more people will die"
20:16 signpost sure, works for so long as the sovereign voice isn't corrupted to the point of impotence, and would argue it already is.
20:16 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform so far: covid #1 (shortly after outbreak) , mildly annoying; covid #2 ('21) mildly annoying; vax (two-part) ; covid #3 ( dec. '21 ) , nasty , 3wks of ugh
20:16 asciilifeform call 'denialist'(tm)(r) if you like.
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 16:03:41 mats: oh good, more vaccine denialism
20:17 * signpost had in winter also, but texan winter, so sat in sun quite a bit
20:17 asciilifeform ( lulzy reich buzzword, gets thrown at whatever folx aint sucking davos cock vigorously enuff at given time )
20:18 signpost whatever happened to good old fashioned 9/11 trutherism
20:18 asciilifeform signpost: 'martians' 'happened' to it
20:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-18 18:45:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-18#1029582 << see also. it's a standard usg discreditation algorithm -- make sure 9 outta 10 dissenters are diagnosable schizos or repeating spew of same
20:18 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-03-13 asciilifeform: aha, sorta how '9/11 truth' came to ~mandatorily~ include 'martians did it'
20:19 signpost anyway, wrote my opinion of what submission mechanism is in use, previously covid, now ww3, here
20:19 signpost asciilifeform: yep
20:22 mangol "denialist" going strong since climate doom. "conspiracy theorist" recently in the spotlight. "extremist" is a timeless classic.
20:22 asciilifeform signpost: difficult to say what effect the choreographed goebbels 'debates' have: they aint part of a scheme where the result somehow matters
20:22 signpost the effect is exhaustion to the point of resignation from attempts at being involved.
20:23 signpost "take your testosterone blockers harrison!"
20:23 asciilifeform the captives are captive anyway; some % of 'aspirational class' suck davos cock eagerly, on acct of some oddball stockholm syndrome where they get to feel 'as if on soros's yacht' while doing so
20:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 03:21:41 mats: what are they going to do about it?
20:23 * signpost would argue with observing denaturing in the US over the years, but not with whether "captive"
20:24 mangol feel 'as if on soros's yacht' << lol
20:25 asciilifeform well say a fella decides 'nyt is fulla shit, wish i could serve putin'. what's his next step.
20:25 asciilifeform captives.
20:25 signpost was gonna say hoard gold and post in zerohedge comment section.
20:25 signpost but yours is more concise
20:26 asciilifeform well surely already 'hoarded gold'. what's his next step.
20:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 15:40:07 asciilifeform: ... or for that matter how relevant are metals, btc, etc to folx whose 'savings' -- if exist at all -- tend to be denominated in sofa cushion loose change which escaped latest trip to liquor store
20:26 asciilifeform comments section, sure.
20:26 asciilifeform then vodka. then anuther day 'older & deeper in debt'(tm) rinse,repeat
20:29 asciilifeform the # of 'unbelievers' is unknown, cuz reich aint set up in such a way that the captives' beliefs actually matter in any way
20:31 signpost not so concerned about aggregating serfs
20:32 signpost would be nice to order and search the wot, see whether there are even a million sane human beings on rock 3.
20:32 asciilifeform unknown among the apparatchiks, either -- apparatus is set up so that folx either nod along or go pick strawberry
20:33 asciilifeform belief not involved.
20:33 signpost I don't believe it's stable, though what comes next doesn't have to be better.
20:33 signpost the accumulation of sad Linusen becomes a cultural object.
20:36 asciilifeform signpost: is 'stable' in the sense of balloon in flight. since '70 or so, drops ballast periodically to stay aloft.
20:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 11:28:07 asciilifeform: meanwhile from orc engl. press, apropos.
20:36 asciilifeform worx, while there's what to drop.
20:37 asciilifeform from '08 or so 'lolno, slave, you dun need a freestanding house, be happy in yer kommunalka'; in '28 prolly 'enjoy delish pressed cockroach and soy milk', rather obv. trend
20:38 asciilifeform see e.g. ancient orc proverb, 'how do you make a cow eat less and give more milk?' 'feed it less, milk it more'
20:38 asciilifeform ( see also )
20:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-07 17:49:39 asciilifeform: oblig. su joak: 'father: vodka's gone up, son. son: father, does that mean you will drink less now? father: no, son, it means that now you will eat less!'
20:39 signpost yep, I'm expecting approximately "Children of Men"
20:39 asciilifeform hm saw the film ~20y ago but iirc was moar about wagner&cyanide
20:39 signpost poor collapselands ruled by whatever remains of the war machines.
20:40 asciilifeform that part typical 'mad max' fare
20:40 signpost sure, it looms right there; every bad writer can see it.
20:41 * signpost even reads Revelations in this light, abstract allegory of civilizational collapse.
20:41 asciilifeform no shortage of these.
20:42 asciilifeform the thing civs do most reliably -- is to collapse.
20:42 asciilifeform errything else varies.
20:43 asciilifeform the process apparently doesn't always involve external conquest -- sometimes the inmates simply rush the no longer electrified, so to speak, fence.
20:43 asciilifeform ( from what little is known re e.g. maya civ -- seems to fit that category )
20:44 asciilifeform sov collapse didn't involve a military conquest, either. mass walkout.
20:44 asciilifeform hence wai current reich preoccupied with problem of 'how to make nowhere to walk out into'
20:44 signpost https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%2017&version=NIV << whore of babylon's one hell of a symbol for the united states.
20:44 asciilifeform paging dpb !111
20:45 signpost hey, his laziness towards this is my primary critique.
20:45 signpost it's not that this is a prophecy. it's that there are enumerable ways a great empire dies.
20:45 asciilifeform fairnuff
20:46 * signpost loves to rile up religious folks with USA being the whore.
20:54 asciilifeform ( see also . )
20:54 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-09-11 asciilifeform: 'Take a look in History, flip through her pages. The first action in revolutions of recent history -- the erection of barricades. They'll smash the cobble stones of the street, dig them out, and block off the road with them. They'll stop cars, buses, fill the street with bricks. And also they'll attack, plunder, raze, and put to the torch the city hall, administrative buildings, presidential palace, parliamen
20:54 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-09-11 asciilifeform: t, shops, warehouses. The crowd has - a correct instinct. It would like to destroy the city - the citadel of power of the political and economic kind - the root cause of its travails. The crowd is stopped in its tracks by those who have plans for the city hall, for the presidential palace. We will not stop the crowd.' (Limonov, 'The Other Russia.') - translation mine.
~ 26 minutes ~
21:20 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087739 << I think trying to further ``modernize'' emacs is a waste of time. The whole point of second-climacs would be to start anew but keeping in mind some of the core design principles of emacs.
21:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 07:31:50 mangol: crtdaydreams: re Second Climacs, do you still have enthusiasm for Emacs modernization? if so, please talk to me (via /query if too much spam for #a). i have some ideas.
21:20 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: the better q is how wouldja avoid baking anuther piece o'shit like current climacs.
21:21 crtdaydreams ^^^ design principles.
21:21 asciilifeform how's it help, when existing os dun support anyffin resembling a working cross-platform gui.
21:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-04 14:23:38 asciilifeform: the 1 i got furthest with, was qt, with a modified 'qtextedit'. but is dog-slow, flickers, misreads clicks, mishighlights, buggy as all hell
21:22 asciilifeform (the c gui glue of old emacs won't work for a clim-style 'errything clickable to pull out src' hypothetical Right Thing)
21:22 crtdaydreams I would prefer not to make another emacs clone. My interest in second-climacs was as basis for further development. The split between buffers as a library (cluffer) and the core program is quite useful.
21:22 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: there's a rather acute lack of 'with what' (see above)
21:23 * asciilifeform suspects it to be an 'os-complete' problem
21:23 crtdaydreams ^^^ I completely agree. More of a theoretical basis.
21:24 * asciilifeform must bbl
21:24 crtdaydreams Classic example of lisp curse.
21:25 crtdaydreams strandh
21:25 crtdaydreams strandh's coad is good from my understanding just suffering from lack of imagination.
21:26 crtdaydreams ~reimplement~ emacs in cl won't cut it for a next-generation editor
21:31 crtdaydreams I'd like to make it clear though, I haven't actually __contributed__ anything of any merit to the project, no coad, nuffin. Just an idea that ~could've~ been applied to second-climacs.
21:33 crtdaydreams It's more evident now that second-climacs is dead-in-the water. Succumbed to lisparalysis.
21:45 mangol strandh represents the opposite of the lisp curse to me. someone who respects existing specs first and communicates well. i've had a few mails back and forth with him, dude is a complete class act.
21:47 mangol no strandh project is "dead" in the CADT sense. he's just taking on a lot of work that other people aren't doing. there are several people like that in the lisp communities, myself included
21:49 mangol community has too few people --> you have lots of ideas --> you holler at everyone within earshot "hey, we need to do this too -- would somebody please do this? i'll help you out as much as i can" --> nobody helps you out, and random people heckle you --> the job falls on you
21:49 mangol i know people like this from CL, ELisp, Scheme
21:50 signpost this is what happens to me every time I break out the gpg key and sign some guy's manifesto.
21:50 signpost the heckling never ends!
21:50 mangol ( http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=cadt&chan=asciilifeform )
21:53 crtdaydreams mangol: It's why I'm not going to put forth any ideas and instead just do them myself. It's all a waste of time that amounts to nothing otherwise.
~ 28 minutes ~
22:21 verisimilitude I'm continually forced by practicality to write more basic versions of my systems first, crtdaydreams.
22:26 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1088149 << asciilifeform aint convinced there is any such meaningful thing as 'the lisp curse'.
22:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 17:23:50 crtdaydreams: Classic example of lisp curse.
22:28 asciilifeform there's idjit toy os's which malignantly fail to support civilized life, for instance.
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 18:04:38 asciilifeform: '... because they were developing Unix and the C compiler. it's appropriate to make a machine print "hello world" to verify that everything works after all the mind-boggling nonsense has interfered with the real purpose of a computer, and you never know which part of booting up will fail due to a minor bug. the delight in a C programmer's eyes when his machine thus booted typed "hello world" back at him
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 18:04:39 asciilifeform: y parallel that of a Common Lisp programmer when the satellite communications subsystem he designed beams back "hello world" after an almost-aborted launch, a navigation jet which misfired, and the solar panels sustained some damage by space debris. normally, it's unnecessary to have confirmations of basic operations, but it makes perfect sense under C.'
22:30 asciilifeform nuffin to do w/ any lisp per se tho, they similarly fail to support any other attempts at civilized life, from smalltalk to scheme, the braindamaged i/o, lack of meaningful support for gc at os/iron level, etc. equally hit'em all
22:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-18 18:28:43 asciilifeform: ( see e.g. asciilifeform's gui saga )
22:31 asciilifeform the confederacy of ignoramuses & deliberate malignant liars who blame e.g. 'the lisp programmers' notwithstanding.
22:34 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1088156 << this item ?
22:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 17:46:42 mangol: no strandh project is "dead" in the CADT sense. he's just taking on a lot of work that other people aren't doing. there are several people like that in the lisp communities, myself included
22:35 asciilifeform '...at the moment, the only graphic user interface that exists uses McCLIM.' -- ugh
22:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-03 18:10:29 asciilifeform: thinks about mcclim, gets just shorta physically ill recalling the ui kit
22:36 * asciilifeform at one pt hoped 'one day' to buy a machine fast enuff for mcclim to render in real time ; then moore's law croaked
22:46 signpost lol!
22:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087999 << a++, over9000x better than 'onion'; e.g.
22:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-24 14:43:01 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087996 https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-receives-nobel-prize-in-medicine-for-ending-covid-pandemic/
← 2022-03-23 | 2022-03-25 →