Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-03-22 | 2022-03-24 → ↓
08:49 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087036 << very cool.
08:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 08:09:11 mangol: can't resist one more link... re: microkernels, this blog is the thing to read: https://microkerneldude.org/
~ 3 hours 16 minutes ~
12:06 mangol crtdaydreams: glad you're enjoying it! Gernot Heiser is to kernels as Dan Bernstein is to security. down to earth, low BS tolerance, always paying attention to performance and reliability in real applications
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12:08 mangol afaict there are two successful microkernel designs: L4 and QNX
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12:09 mangol the KeyKOS/EROS research kernel family produced some capability-based security APIs which they are trying to fold back into the L4 family in a way that doesn't hurt performance too badly
12:11 mangol decade after decade, various groups keep trying to make production OSes using something other than L4 as the basis, which afaict is what gives microkernels a bad name
12:12 mangol in particular, GNU HURD story: https://www.reddit.com/r/hurd/comments/273tij/hurd_the_minix_3_microkernel/chxycem/
12:14 mangol "There was a serious attempt at porting HURD to L4. It was already working, but the people behind it became disillusioned with the HURD, after realizing flaws on the architecture. I recommend reading the papers the L4 port people wrote on this. Back then, there were some ten to twenty HURD developers active.
12:14 mangol After that, the HURD should have rethought its architecture and moved on with L4. Instead, they didn't continue the L4 effort nor fix the architecture. What they did was abandon it and start an entirely new port to a different microkernel, Coyotos, which didn't bear fruit, either. Throughout all this, the HURD was losing developers as they became disinterested."
12:19 mangol i.e. sounds like CADT model at work again
12:23 mangol Liedtke, the originator of L4, made a working orthogonal persistence OS earlier in his career. some people just keep hitting the right notes as the rest of the field stumbles.
~ 49 minutes ~
13:13 PeterL http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087280 << What's the difference between "programming" and "scripting"?
13:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 18:43:55 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087171 << python's main achievement was to show that most of what people thought is "real programming" is basically just scripting. a laudable feat
~ 2 hours 33 minutes ~
15:46 * signpost figures the distinction there's an artifact of bad systems, which have entirely different languages for "low level" and "high level" rather than a gradient within one language.
~ 33 minutes ~
16:20 asciilifeform signpost: iirc traditionally, 'script' was a proggy which 'runs once and done', and typically 'disposable'
16:21 asciilifeform signpost: wholly unrelatedly, iirc signpost had a solartron ? asciilifeform was shopping for such thing (the kind w/ LiFePO battery ) and much to disappointment found that they all seem to demand internet connection
16:22 shinohai You'll pry my init scripts from my cold dead hands.
16:22 asciilifeform ( even came up with a hypothesis re why. vendor makes use of backdoor to stealthily disable battery cycling when mains is present, extending the life of the battery to meet the claimed warranty period of 10y , where otherwise -- if it behaved as programmed by owner -- would not )
16:24 shinohai that HP lappy i bought for the girls had garbage battery, like 3 cellphone batteries in series. lasted 2 years and then fried regulator.
16:24 asciilifeform shinohai: init script good example of 'run once'
16:25 shinohai aha asciilifeform (but i somehow don't see 'em as "disposable")
16:26 asciilifeform shinohai: for 'mysterious' reasons, can't get lappy w/ LiFePO battery (but can get... lamps, asciilifeform's still going strong through all kindsa temperature extremes outdoors for 7+y nao)
16:26 signpost asciilifeform: I've got a "jackery" ~1.5kwh and 4 100W folding panels
16:26 signpost no wifi shit in the former
16:27 shinohai Currently use a ChinkPad mini as daily terminal, at least runs a gentoo
16:27 asciilifeform ah was speaking of the heavier whole-house machines
16:28 signpost nah, just got the portable type for e.g. camping
16:29 * signpost parked the relocation project to NH to see what great depression prices look like for land.
16:29 asciilifeform a
16:30 PeterL inflation baloon keeps pumping, price might keep going up for a while, who knows when it will pop?
16:30 * shinohai supposes he will stay parked in Georgia, where at least the castrated boys won't ruin girls volleyball ....
16:31 PeterL don't even need castration, just have to say they "feel like a girl" and can go compete
16:31 signpost PeterL: my current house is reaping the benefits of california flight to texas. NH meanwhile's a mostly rural, low-population area. w/e happens, it'll work out.
16:32 signpost if farms in NH end up 1.5mil, this cardboard box will be 2.5mil.
16:32 shinohai A post in South Florida still not out of discussion though, the girls want it badly.
16:33 signpost shinohai: FL might be coming out way ahead given their total dismissal of the covid paranoia.
16:34 shinohai It's definitely a Summer destination spot, because I have little doubt the "extended weekend" will turn into "just one more week" xD
16:34 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087293 << asciilifeform recalls qnx demo floppy from late '90s, was impressed; and came with all kindsa claims 'used in reactors!' etc. but closed mysteryware, and nfi whether in any sense 'alive' today, not that it'd help any
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16:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 08:07:19 mangol: afaict there are two successful microkernel designs: L4 and QNX
16:35 asciilifeform as for the 'l4' thing -- strongly suspect is academitard sadware.
16:36 asciilifeform ( massive ball of c , and with pile of tall claims , but somehow used nowhere )
16:38 verisimilitude I can understand why the more pathetic men become trannies, or at least claim to be them in order to compete, since it's easy for even mediocre men to beat the best women.
16:38 signpost https://www.pcmag.com/archive/rim-buys-qnx-to-tie-phones-to-cars-249966 << apparently RIM bought QNX in 2010
16:38 verisimilitude I don't feel the need, however, since I'm also better than the men, in my chosen field.
16:39 signpost cowardice is timeless
16:39 asciilifeform signpost: lol, went to graveyard a la 'amiga'
16:40 * signpost plays taps
16:40 asciilifeform afaik qnx was 'ball of c', if possibly a high-quality one. unlikely would've survived opensoresing in usable condition
16:40 signpost I recall the same demo floppy btw, booted it up when I was a young man and cramming as many alt-OSen into the same PC as I could.
16:41 asciilifeform aha, similarly
16:41 * asciilifeform fondly recalls os/2 'warp' etc
16:43 * signpost favorite was probably BeOS, if for superficial reasons at the time.
16:43 signpost felt shockingly responsive for the era's hardware than linux or win
16:43 asciilifeform was designed around responsiveness aha
16:44 asciilifeform deliberately
16:55 asciilifeform oblig.
16:55 asciilifeform ..and related.
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16:56 asciilifeform virtually all '80s micros were over9000 moar responsive than current-day pc (whether microshit- or unix- flavour of crippled)
16:59 asciilifeform re qnx -- apparently pseudo-opensoresed in '09
17:00 asciilifeform (supposedly builds -- strictly if you've the official one)
17:03 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
17:03 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $42523.11
17:03 signpost heh, that would've been right before selling to RIM for approx 200mil (probably what they owed)
17:04 signpost folks probably wanted to use chunks of QNX elsewhere after selling
17:04 asciilifeform signpost: often enuff, these sales have little to do w/ possible use of the product, and moar to do w/ absorbing the authors
17:04 asciilifeform recall e.g. amd's swallowing of dec alpha
17:04 signpost yep
17:06 asciilifeform meanwhile, in orcistan: 'Russia will now accept payment for gas exports to "unfriendly countries" in rubles only...'
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17:09 signpost https://www.metro.us/nato-head-tells-russia/ << and related lulz
17:10 asciilifeform lol human perlscript
17:17 * signpost expects the thing will be issuing sanctions long after the cardboard movie set has blown over.
17:17 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087292 << in case yer unaware, bernstein turned yrs ago
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17:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 08:05:27 mangol: crtdaydreams: glad you're enjoying it! Gernot Heiser is to kernels as Dan Bernstein is to security. down to earth, low BS tolerance, always paying attention to performance and reliability in real applications
17:17 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-20 10:42:32 asciilifeform: for brief time d. bernstein was a kind of exception -- but swamp quickly swallowed him, and for many yrs now he has not been distinguishable from other swamp creatures.
17:21 asciilifeform ( e.g. etc )
17:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-30 23:35:54 asciilifeform: d4: djb incidentally 'turned' (from '16 or so, openly advocates e.g. the use of prng in place of trng), and asciilifeform has 0 remaining respect for him.
17:21 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-06-02 asciilifeform: erlehmann: i have nfi what to make of djb at this point. phuctor is the world's largest public showcase of his 'smooth parts of integers' algo, but he refused -- repeatedly -- to answer main re same. and now he's signed his name to a paper full of howlers, e.g. 'let usg nist generate your private key'
17:21 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-03-11 asciilifeform: funny how easy to tell 'the new djb' from 'the old'
17:23 asciilifeform at one pt was 'uppity' figure, then evidently invited to a 'wouldja like to keep yer professorship or would rather pick strawberries' talk, after which this.
17:23 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-12-17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: near as i can tell, it was a mixture of provocateur shilling and genuinely earnest usefulidjits -- schneier, for instance, was at the time an apparently-earnest 'activist', as was djb (who sued usg at considerable personal expense, and even won in some sense iirc )
~ 16 minutes ~
17:39 mangol whoa, djb and schneier have yielded? i'm badly out of date on this stuff
17:41 asciilifeform mangol: well it wasn't announced in new york times, lol
17:42 mangol obligatory techrights article on linus
17:42 mangol "Corporate Disciplining Bad for One's Health"
17:46 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087346 << great input lag survey
17:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 12:55:08 asciilifeform: ..and related.
17:51 signpost mangol: it's what torvalds gets for living in portland, dystopian shithole that it is.
17:52 signpost https://opensource.com/life/15/8/patricia-torvalds-interview
17:53 signpost populated entirely by white neopuritan screeching.
17:54 PeterL signpost: was that where you moved to TX from?
17:54 signpost grew up in texas, lived in portland for a while for a job.
17:55 PeterL so you have first hand experience of the horror
17:55 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform suspects that result would've been same if linus had lived in berlin or tokyo
17:55 signpost maybe, but the shit's particularly dense in portland.
17:56 signpost bunch of hormonally imbalanced white bitches screeching because their protestant OS crashed.
17:56 asciilifeform d00d prolly simply got a 'wanna pick strawberries?' letter like djb
17:56 signpost entirely possible
17:57 asciilifeform the obv downside of being a 'respected public' xyz
17:57 verisimilitude If only Linux could've been finished at some point, instead.
17:57 asciilifeform verisimilitude: well then he'd already have to pick strawberries
17:57 asciilifeform is good % of why nuffin ever made to be finished.
17:58 signpost nothing so bad about finishing one's work and picking strawberries.
17:58 verisimilitude I'd claim an issue with Free Software, but proprietary software is never made to be finished either.
17:58 asciilifeform linux turned his hobby into a meal ticket, biting reich's hook, what other ending could there be to the story.
17:58 asciilifeform *linus
17:59 verisimilitude RMS is still fine.
17:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: iirc was evicted from the closed in mit where lived. and dethroned from fsf.
17:59 asciilifeform *closet
17:59 verisimilitude He's the head again.
17:59 signpost (whistles nervously about epstein kompromat)
17:59 verisimilitude He was always the ``Chief GNUsiance'', also.
18:00 asciilifeform verisimilitude: he had 'the talk' and agreed to (something), then again nominally 'head', yes
18:00 asciilifeform is 1 variant of how these play out.
18:00 verisimilitude I don't see it that way.
18:00 signpost shown vids of the epstein girls nibbling on his toejam
18:00 asciilifeform observe, verisimilitude , that rms is no longer 'nuisance' to anyone.
18:00 verisimilitude The real difference is RMS is basically a hermit, who gets around traps for normal people.
18:01 signpost there is no such thing as meaningful evasion of "traps", as though rule of law exists.
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18:01 signpost either nonthreatening and unsquashed, or otherwise.
18:01 verisimilitude Christopher Knight evaded them for twenty-five years.
18:02 verisimilitude http://verisimilitudes.net/2019-10-15
18:03 signpost sure, one can commit slow suicide.
18:03 signpost we were discussing someone supposedly active in cultural works.
18:03 verisimilitude I'm hopeless, but this is ridiculous.
18:06 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087407 << this. SJW is never about something a person did or might have done. everyone popular gets the FUD -> "kneel!" treatment
18:06 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 14:00:37 signpost: there is no such thing as meaningful evasion of "traps", as though rule of law exists.
18:07 mangol fabricated sexual harrasment case, or made someone feel "uncomfortable", etc.
18:08 signpost or juiced in his mercedes as the brakes throw sparks, say.
18:08 mangol that's reseved for people who have dirt on the wrong people afaik
18:09 mangol project leaders just get dethroned from projects
18:09 mangol techrights has good coverage of the way this SJW shit is used as a cover by corporations like MS to take over open source projects
18:09 signpost sure, the guy in question was investigating cia corruption.
18:09 signpost rip hastings
18:09 mangol ofc, also to fork over money and fame to journalists and other groupies of whatever industry they're in the process of ruining
18:10 signpost point being that tactics escalate against level of threat.
18:10 signpost most of these are persuaded to eat some form of their own pistol long before.
18:11 mangol sure. but even without a threat 
18:11 mangol SJWs just get greedy
18:12 mangol straight white man looks out of place in position of power, esp. if he's a nerd. moment of vulnerability -> attack
18:12 signpost mhm. "political" animals, but in the captive sense, rather than builders.
18:12 signpost even this "nerd" thing is a convenient propaganda construction.
18:13 signpost guy who can think must therefore not exercise, know how to shoot, w/e.
18:13 signpost most importantly, must crave populist approval.
18:15 mangol yes. nerds crave approval in the sense that they crave not being humiliated or guilted
18:18 signpost seems a matter of child abuse. kid oughta learn to program, hunt, fight, or to allow heinlein to say it better:
18:18 signpost "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
18:18 signpost Specialization is for insects"
18:19 signpost anyhow hobbling the otherwise most effective people in one's empire will work itself out.
18:19 mangol classic quote. heinlein is the only thinker to date who can say "insect" without sounding condescending
18:19 mangol cause he padded his thought with the egalitarian "a human being should" :D
18:20 mangol yes, will work out, but the collateral damage is the nasty part
18:20 signpost perhaps it's from where I sit, but I read that as most things on two legs not having achieved humanity.
18:20 signpost it's a wry sort of "working out"
18:20 mangol tidal wave of woke will sweep you and your friends along
18:22 signpost rural texans seem to be out-fucking the californian immigrants in the cities, god bless them
18:22 signpost not so woke here yet.
18:22 mangol FL another bastion of relative sanity over there
18:22 signpost somehow! who expected it
18:23 * signpost was born in FL actually, circus of a place.
18:23 mangol cool
18:23 signpost in problems where the correct solution is "do nothing", FL excels, suppose.
18:23 mangol :D
18:25 mangol the nerd stereotype is reasonable ime. not everyone fits, but hasn't come from nothing.
18:25 signpost any nerd can be repaired with a few months of physical activity away from the keyboard.
18:25 mangol high-functioning nice men [sic] are dangerous to everyone around them. many open source projects have one as a leader
18:25 signpost there's nothing innate about the weakness.
18:25 signpost sure, one may be submissive and not hobbled.
18:26 mangol the physical part is the easy part (nowadays). mental can take a lifetime for some
18:26 * signpost figures one flows from other, mind not being separate
18:26 signpost most of the "mentally ill" are severely physically ill first.
18:26 mangol a mind can be a fortress of weakness just as well as a fortress of strength
18:26 signpost that indeed.
18:28 mangol "mental illness" isn't about lack of weightlifting, that's one of the dumbest RW memes. it's about hating yourself (because parents were incompetent, or something else didn't go right)
18:28 mangol anyone who doesn't hate themselves and doesn't have obvious physical disability can easily eat and exercise well
18:29 signpost eh. not going to be brought to defend somebody else's stupidity.
18:29 signpost first thing I said was that these had been taught they were innately weak.
18:29 signpost this is a mental matter.
18:30 mangol ah, right. agreed
18:30 signpost second thing I said was that many people feel they are weak because of their inability to maintain the machine.
18:30 signpost this ain't "do you even lift, bitch!"
18:30 * signpost is of middling fitness at best
18:31 signpost but back on point, can render it more clearly. to enslave at scale, an empire has to distribute the hobbling culturally.
18:31 signpost it doesn't actually have direct power to oppress as many people as it controls.
18:32 mangol agreed
18:33 mangol according to one interview, kgb thought subversion job is done when one generation has been "educated" to their specifications
18:34 mangol get em while they're young and impressionable
18:35 signpost yep, then they'll tell their sons to sit still and their daughters their honor was stolen.
18:37 mangol Ten Types Of Modern Fool ("safe for work" despite URL)
18:37 signpost these days I only work in places that aren't afraid of anus
18:37 mangol ^ article is right on parenting in my experience.
18:37 mangol "How do you get hipsters floating around every city? Successful parents who are cruel to their children produce dropouts, and people who are accustomed to forcing their way on others at jobs tend to take that mentality home and then treat their children like opposing parties in lawsuits, recalcitrant employees and hostile competition."
18:38 * signpost has this project approaching.
18:38 mangol that's how i ended up at this irc channel, for example
18:39 mangol look at the woke ambassadors on social media -- on a personal level, many have cataclysmic levels of perfectionism
18:39 signpost this thinking of culture as a recursive machine is correct imho
18:40 signpost the places which had drunken, abusive fathers in one generation developed overbearing motherstates in the next
18:40 signpost germany, australia, etc
18:40 mangol feel suicidal if they buy some product that isn't ethically sourced, or accidentally "insult" some victim-group-of-the-month
18:40 signpost it's the urge for religion, which is why I said "honor stolen" about the girls
18:41 signpost more broadly, "correctness of culture"
18:41 signpost you hobble women by telling them it's impossible due to some inalienable part of themselves.
18:41 signpost they can't stop wanting it, thus.
18:41 signpost *thus this broken state which produces teh woke
18:42 mangol interesting. so parenting is an intergenerational yo-yo between too strict and too lenient
18:42 signpost hilariously, this is an unconscious recreation of the conditions they had at christianity's peak; it's worth asking whether christianity ever ended, or merely shed superfluous features.
18:43 signpost well, proceeds by cause, not necessarily back and forth in place.
18:45 mangol we kept the bad parts of christianity (pointless guilt about over 9000 things) and threw out the good (community, family, healthy connection to past and future)
18:46 signpost "Anyone talking about education as a solution is dishonest and probably flamingly stupid inside, no matter how much crap they have memorized on the surface." << would reframe that education as currently exists serves to inflict the child abuse necessary to prolong empire. works fine, just not for you.
18:47 signpost mangol: the fundamental idea is a madness-inducing notion that everyone has direct contact with a personal sovereign voice.
18:47 signpost o/^ your own.. personal.. jesus o/^
18:48 signpost amounts to a sock-puppet as the cosmic voice of authorization.
18:49 signpost maybe we're just stepping backward in terms of history of hobbling ideologies, here.
18:49 signpost letting every fool think they can hear god is the ultimate tower of babel.
18:52 mangol the idea was that the priesthood will guide people back on track when they hear the voice incorrectly
18:53 mangol using carrot and stick of various severity
18:53 signpost yeah, this is the distributed oppression mechanism from earlier. works if they're carrying centrally projected voice of admonition.
18:53 signpost once god dies, the thing becomes a feedback loop where all urges are authorized by godvoice the moment they arise.
18:54 mangol right
18:55 mangol did a substantial number of people take such authority into their own hands in this manner in recent times?
18:55 mangol to me it looks a lot like the death of god left people with most of the negative feelings associated with religious experience, but took out the positive
18:56 mangol or rather, you have to be really skilled to feel good without religion. most people hate freedom.
18:58 mangol with the benefit of hindsight, it's obvious that forcing everyone to make their own meaning would turn into a clusterfuck
18:58 signpost rather than taken into their own hands, they were loaded to capacity with mutually thwarting admonitory voices.
18:58 signpost there stuck.
18:59 signpost and that our rulers weren't immune to it, also gone insane.
19:00 signpost yeah, "make your own meaning" becomes solipsistic hell
19:01 mangol a small % of people have "seeker" temperament and love nothing more than making their own meaning. everyone else is tormented from age 12, give or take.
19:01 signpost would question "making their own" but I take what you mean.
19:02 mangol well, nothing we make is entirely original :)
19:02 * signpost didn't invent acid, meditation, walks in the forest, w/e
19:02 signpost mostly not, thankfully, haha
19:02 signpost didn't invent english for that matter, or latin.
19:03 * signpost is curious where signpost begins, at that.
19:06 mangol imho the fundamental problem with liberalism is that a lifestyle that's appropriate for the 5-10% of population with the best genes is foisted on everybody
19:08 signpost sure, ideally society is ordered, with capability and means ascending together.
19:08 * signpost participated in at least one memberberries project to resurrect such, left with the sense that resurrection is alchemy.
19:09 signpost or, could ask mangol where he thinks liberalism ever existed, also.
19:10 signpost remarkable how quickly those that said this became totalitarian.
19:10 mangol human nature abhors a power vacuum
19:11 mangol most people can't handle liberty which will mess up the society. then the strong people come out of the woodwork
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19:12 mangol strong as in good or evil, doesn't matter
19:12 signpost sure, can't form groups without this, entirely natural.
19:13 mangol the salient question is not good or evil (as conventionally understood in our time) but whether or not people will make a mess
19:13 mangol west is now batshit liberal --> epic mess --> cleanup time approaching quickly
19:14 signpost curious how these terms get so twisted. can't even own land outright under this liberalism.
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19:15 signpost but yes, cleanup time in the sense that everything powerful appears also to be suicidal.
19:15 signpost schizoid as most are, most everyone at least partly wants to kill himself.
19:16 * signpost sees the actions of western leaders as this, hoping the drink will end their wretched life, in a way.
19:17 signpost might even be natural balancing mechanisms at work in there.
19:19 verisimilitude [https://oxide.computer/blog/another-vulnerability-in-the-lpc55s69-rom][Before discussing the exploit, it's worth thinking about the higher level problem: how do you update your software on a microcontroller once it leaves the factory? This turns out to be a tricky problem where a bug can result in a non-functional device. To make this problem easier, chip makers like NXP will provide some method to put the chip in a mode that allo
19:19 verisimilitude Oh, too long.
19:19 verisimilitude Before discussing the exploit, it's worth thinking about the higher level problem: how do you update your software on a microcontroller once it leaves the factory? This turns out to be a tricky problem where a bug can result in a non-functional device.
19:20 verisimilitude Getting it right the first time never occurs to them, but they'll get the update mechanism right the first time, ostensibly.
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19:20 mangol signpost: agreed to a large extent. it's not that glamorous to be overlord of something like current US or EU
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19:21 mangol no matter how wretched our leaders may be, they must occasionally lie in bed at night and realize their legacy will be turning best countries in the world into steaming pile
19:23 signpost creatures that lie as they must to attain the position can't self-model to the point of having guilt.
19:23 mangol probably one of those compulsions where sufferer is aware to some extent but can't help themselves, individually or collectively
19:24 signpost yep
19:24 mangol there's some evidence that "psychopaths" (term up for debate) suffer because no matter how cunning and resilient they are, cannot find love
19:24 signpost when you lie for that long, your life depends on mutually incompatible maps of the territory.
19:24 signpost they are definitionally no one.
19:24 signpost sure, they must be the most miserable people on earth.
19:25 signpost each sliver of being horrified at the other.
19:27 signpost verisimilitude: and if not, the update mechanism for the update mechanism surely.
~ 37 minutes ~
20:04 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087534 << that's to be expected. freedom means you can do what you want. when you give more and more freedom, to more and more people, you discover that most people don't want anything constructive.
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20:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-23 15:13:26 signpost: curious how these terms get so twisted. can't even own land outright under this liberalism.
20:05 mangol the theory of liberalism was invented people who are squarely in the top 5-10% of genes, so they intuitively started thinking about tit-for-tat, property rights and things like that
20:05 mangol these genetically gifted people love the hard work of submitting to a principle
20:06 mangol that's freedom to them. most people's freedom is they can take other people's stuff and avoid negative consequences of their actions
~ 1 hours 48 minutes ~
21:54 PeterL LISP noob question: why are "when" and "unless" included in the language, can't they both be replaced by "if"?
21:58 signpost implict progn in the body
21:58 signpost http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=W2hN
21:58 signpost just a brevity thing if you're only programming for one of the cases
21:58 signpost (iirc)
22:09 asciilifeform PeterL: classic commonlispism. see also e.g. 'elt' and 'nth' pair, for instance
22:10 asciilifeform ( and yes there's a reason there, but at same time... aint it obv. to the machine whether yer giving a sequence or a cons ? )
22:10 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-12-22 phf: asciilifeform: elt is a sequence operator, nth is a cons cell operator. cons/car/cdr/nth/list etc. you can express nth in terms of car/cdr. you can't express elt in terms of any of those
~ 39 minutes ~
22:49 mats https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/23/rouble-firms-past-100-vs-dollar-as-putin-announces-gas-currency-s
~ 18 minutes ~
23:08 verisimilitude Yes; I use neither, PeterL.
23:08 verisimilitude A COND would be better.
23:17 signpost arbitrary, they're all just macros for arrangements of if/progn/etc
23:17 signpost lots of them probably came from stakeholders bitching that theirs was "better" at the committee
23:18 verisimilitude COND is an original Lisp form.
23:18 verisimilitude It predates IF.
23:21 signpost not speaking of the history, speaking of what COND is in every CL impl on my machine.
23:25 signpost to say nothing of what shitty advice calling something "better" is.
23:25 signpost "some guy on the internet told me this mouth noise was his favorite" is no basis for a system of thinking!
23:26 * signpost chortles
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