Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-03-15 | 2022-03-17 → ↓
00:18 signpost hey mats, when are you going to stand up a blatta?
00:19 signpost when the nukes start dropping I still want to argue about amateur-econ with ya
00:28 verisimilitude Yeah, be radioactive coins more or less valuable than not?
00:31 signpost verisimilitude: time for you to stand up a node too!
00:35 verisimilitude I agree, but I want to write my Pest by myself.
00:38 shinohai It's the ides of March verisimilitude you MUST settle your debt to me with radioactive coin.
00:40 verisimilitude ĪDŪS MĀRTIAE EST
00:43 signpost fair enough, totally worthwhile
00:44 * signpost intends his own client as well, once a few other things pop out of the queue
00:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-15#1084437 << dept. of 'gain of function' doesn't sleep, eh
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00:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 17:58:20 signpost: on the subject of worse times ahead, several of our friends have suddenly come down with a severe thing that isn't covid or flu, one hospitalized.
00:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-15#1084439 << normally they're the ones offloading, aha. see 'gamestop' etc
00:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 18:02:33 signpost: mats: also man, I mostly assume that by the time guys like us think of a trade, the experts are already in that position ready to offload it onto us.
00:58 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-15#1084443 << from asciilifeform's pov, == 'MMM'
00:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 18:06:53 mats: stablecoins lending is still very profitable since institutions are shut out from participation, its quite the retail opportunity
00:58 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-11 10:27:27 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-11#1051943 << there are several, imho, processes, going in parallel, and not only 'uninnoculated rubes' such as orig. MMM buyers. for instance, many folx grow up with a solid 'no such thing as free lunch' upbringing, but the jumpers in their heads get pulled off when they get some lucky break (e.g. 2010s btc) and after this think 'what if there are bigge
00:59 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-15#1084446 << already happening (reich collecting tribute from its satrapies != 'trade')
00:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 18:10:54 signpost: not a lot of planet left. once we figure out who owns the contested parts, doubtful international trade will be prevented on ideological grounds.
01:00 signpost I mean that NATOstan will be begging for ru-sphere commodities before long.
01:00 signpost and paying through the nose.
01:00 signpost the idea that it'll punish CN also laughable.
01:06 mats asciilifeform: well, its not
01:07 mats gamestop wasn't a hedge fund driven scam either
01:08 mats just a dumb crowded trade
01:10 signpost I have a hard time believing wallstbets has no outside influence.
01:10 signpost iirc the hedge fund they blew up with the gamestop episode was quickly snapped up by another.
01:10 signpost seems at least suspct.
01:10 signpost *suspect
01:13 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-08#1083586 << the stepping-on was always there, will always be there.
01:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-08 20:25:43 mats: its a bit woke for my taste, but if you think the median man is garbage and needs stepping on, as i do, its sensible
01:13 * signpost doesn't think the median man lacks for stepping, just terrible system for choosing steppers.
01:15 mats the single biggest winner in the gamestop episode was the company
01:17 mats the shares weren't worth more than $5/ea and still aren't, they got to raise iirc 1.5bn at absurd valuation and may even turn around the business with all of this new money
01:17 mats if the expectation to maintain this valuation doesn't destroy them in the process
01:18 signpost https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GME/holders << lots of winners.
01:19 mats you don't know what they paid for those shares
01:19 signpost sorta missing my point.
01:19 signpost "dumb crowded trade" implies no work to influence the crowding.
01:20 signpost I doubt that; there's no way there aren't trust networks within finance capable of influence campaigns.
01:20 mats maybe, but this isn't evidence
01:20 signpost nor does it persuade me to trust something more comfortable, is all.
01:21 signpost there is also such a thing as argument from a more general understanding of the world and its incentives.
01:21 mats there was also a lot of dumb money crowding into doge, and then bitcoins
01:22 signpost I think that also ignores a *ton* of effort to herd normies.
01:22 signpost last wave of meat probably has a lot to do with elon, among other things.
01:24 signpost isn't that the crowd doesn't happen to align and realize they can push on something. riots do happen. there's just an apparatus that is better than you at extracting value from these movements, aside predicting and amplifying them.
01:25 mats thats why i'm saying that gamestop is the biggest beneficiary from the buying frenzy, not hedges
01:26 signpost dunno that I have any problem with that.
01:26 mats maybe elon collected from doge and bitcoin memeing, i don't know
01:26 signpost perhaps my position is that USA actually has scams that put MMM to shame.
01:26 signpost distributed ones in the heart and soul of every fat slob.
01:27 signpost there doesn't need to be a centralized effort. the crowd will present its ass to the benefit of all who pass by.
01:27 mats sure... uber, airbnb, turo, wework, theranos, nikola, paypal
01:27 signpost mhm
~ 2 hours 54 minutes ~
04:22 scoopbot New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: A Review of ``The Codeless Code''
~ 3 hours 19 minutes ~
07:42 mangol hello. this might be a good time to ask whether you wanna talk about programming.
07:43 mangol i've been reading the loper blog and the logs, and am impressed. would like to know what kinds of coding projects the people here are interested in pursuing, and what programming languages are in your favor
07:43 mangol my background is mostly lisp and scheme
07:45 mangol plan to stick with these and study the ML family in depth
07:46 mangol would be interesting to get some pointers on Ada, which i know next to nothing about. it seems to be highly regarded here and i'd get an in-depth picture of why
07:49 verisimilitude Hello, mangol.
07:49 mangol in particular, do you think Ada intrinsically fills an important niche which the Lisp and ML families can't handle, or do you consider Ada more of an interim measure -- a better C or C++, say
07:49 verisimilitude Consider this Ada book.
07:49 mangol (ATS http://www.ats-lang.org/ seems like the ML family equivalent of Ada)
07:49 verisimilitude It's the former, mangol.
07:50 verisimilitude Ada gives me something Lisp never can, rigidity.
07:51 verisimilitude When I already know exactly what I want, Ada usually beats Lisp, although not always.
07:51 verisimilitude Lisp is more suited to very small things than Ada is, usually.
07:54 verisimilitude These two are my primary projects, with these implementations.
07:55 verisimilitude Know I'm the only APL hacker here, mangol.
08:10 mangol thank you for the helpful pointers. i'll read them in depth.
08:11 verisimilitude It's no issue.
08:11 mangol so Ada 2012 is the latest standard, and Programming in Ada is an introductory book for it by one of the best-known people in the community?
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08:11 verisimilitude Yes.
08:11 mangol (is there such a thing as "the Ada community"?)
08:12 verisimilitude I wouldn't claim there's much of a community, however, no.
08:12 mangol well over 95% closed source code, probably
08:13 mangol and often confidential
08:22 mangol verisimilitude: what's your opinion of type inference?
08:30 verisimilitude I don't think about it much.
08:31 crtdaydreams mangol: have you considered joining the wot? It helps to have a continuity of identity.
~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~
10:08 mangol i followed the instructions and deedbot accepted my key. it isn't yet shown on the website. maybe there's a delay.
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~ 23 minutes ~
10:32 mangol re: Elision, my first impression is it sounds like a project which would have the same strengths and weaknesses as Cyc
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10:34 mangol or Lojban
~ 1 hours 49 minutes ~
12:23 PeterL mangol: have you been following the Pest development?
12:30 mangol hello PeterL. Pest seems like a good design. i've read most of the spec (appreciate the prettyprinted version) but not yet familiar with all the details.
12:31 mangol the main unanswered question in my mind is, how scalable is the design -- how hard is it to handle a pestnet of 100 or 1000 stations
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12:31 mangol i'll implement it in scheme if i can find the time
12:34 PeterL Do you think you will ever have 100 people using it? So far we have only had about 10 stations on our test net, mostly using a prototype written in python.
12:35 mangol (Scheme vs Common Lisp is one topic i have a lot of interest in and would be happy to explore, with people who wanna be focused on production and not arguing)
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12:36 PeterL I've never really used either, asciilifeform or signpost could probably talk to you about that
12:37 mangol PeterL: i assumed asciilifeform has a plan for scaling Pest, but maybe that's not a goal to begin with
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12:37 mangol there are many irc channels with hundreds of people
12:38 PeterL what do you imagine it needs to scale more than it already has?
12:38 PeterL what makes you think it will not scale as it is?
12:45 mangol flood routing + encryption. i'm not well versed in either so take this as the hunch of an uninformed guy.
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
13:48 asciilifeform welcome to #a, mangol
13:49 mangol asciilifeform: thank you very much!
13:49 mangol you're one of the most interesting people on the net IMHO
13:49 asciilifeform why ty mangol
13:50 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084540 << in principle you can have any # of stations you like on a pestnet if you set a reasonable bounce cutoff. however asciilifeform's official pov is that a group of mutual ~peers~ must be <= 'dunbar' number. the design reflects
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13:50 asciilifeform this.
13:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 08:30:43 mangol: the main unanswered question in my mind is, how scalable is the design -- how hard is it to handle a pestnet of 100 or 1000 stations
13:51 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-29 13:30:15 signpost: the correct social topology is human-sized, e.g. the number of reasonable pest peerings.
13:51 asciilifeform !!key mangol
13:51 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/CBDC579BB5B7F3C25186ABBCD771EA8BC0F4E89A.asc
13:51 asciilifeform !!rate mangol 1 noob
13:51 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=APmq
13:52 asciilifeform !!v 058E1004DC05D59DC0E10C4027EA78538CE8219F33C04977669A0CF79269BA9D
13:52 deedbot asciilifeform rated mangol 1 << noob
13:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084535 << iirc 1d or so delay
13:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 06:08:00 mangol: i followed the instructions and deedbot accepted my key. it isn't yet shown on the website. maybe there's a delay.
13:54 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084526 << if you know ru, this'll be the best book on subj; otherwise barnes 2012
13:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 04:11:12 mangol: so Ada 2012 is the latest standard, and Programming in Ada is an introductory book for it by one of the best-known people in the community?
13:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084545 << it scales precisely as well as it needs to. see above.
13:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 08:36:31 mangol: PeterL: i assumed asciilifeform has a plan for scaling Pest, but maybe that's not a goal to begin with
13:58 PeterL I guess it helps to think of a pest network more like a single channel on traditional irc, where there are a handful of people talking, rather than e.g. freenode which could have thousands. It is easy enough to set up multiple pest stations, so you can have disjoing sets of peers
14:02 PeterL for learning ada, there is the rationale and specification documents which are long and detailed, but worth reading if you have the time
~ 27 minutes ~
14:30 mangol makes sense. so for pest nets that >dunbar people are interested in reading, the idea is to publish the logs on a separate medium.
14:31 PeterL right, like the log
14:31 mangol and having >dunbar people with write access to the same channel will create a mess, so that's not an important use case
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14:33 PeterL this is all assuming the current use. If signpost gets his file transfer protocol working on top of pest then we might need to look at other ways for optimization, but at this point that would be premature
14:34 dpb mangol, check out http://atruechurch.info/ and don't go to hell like the rest of the world!
14:38 mangol wow, i didn't know they have door-to-door preachers on irc!
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14:38 PeterL dpb, have you tried standing up a blatta yet?
14:41 dpb no
14:41 mangol some believe that pr0n should be the first use case on which to test all new protocols
14:41 mangol but why not religion
14:42 mangol subversive message for a subversive protocol
14:42 PeterL pest-sexchat when?
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14:45 mangol HexChat -> hexadecimal -> sexadecimal -> SexChat
14:47 mangol sexed vs hexed
14:47 mangol I put a spell on you, etc., etc.
14:48 PeterL so mangol, where are you from? you got a blog or anything that you have written out on the internet you could point us to?
14:52 PeterL do you identify as a millenial, gen-z, gen-x, or boomer?
14:58 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084577 << resident, not door-to-door, lol
14:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 10:37:47 mangol: wow, i didn't know they have door-to-door preachers on irc!
15:00 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084574 << the correct mental model for a pestnet imho is a party in a large room. if errybody's voice carried to entire room, would be impossible to speak. however people normally stand in groups and can speak, sometimes moving from one to another
15:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 10:30:54 mangol: and having >dunbar people with write access to the same channel will create a mess, so that's not an important use case
15:00 asciilifeform the current pestnet is ~dozen people 'sitting around coffee table' which worx ideally.
15:13 mangol PeterL: .fi
15:13 mangol PeterL: i identify as an x-millennial
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15:14 asciilifeform mangol: btw we even have another finn - cgra
15:14 mangol torille!
15:14 mangol my pronouns are let/lambda
15:17 asciilifeform lol
15:17 signpost wahahaha
15:17 signpost welcome mangol
15:20 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084543 << to my mind there are productive kinds of argument, though likely not the kind you're referencing.
15:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 08:34:49 mangol: (Scheme vs Common Lisp is one topic i have a lot of interest in and would be happy to explore, with people who wanna be focused on production and not arguing)
15:20 signpost "flamewars" are usually driven by particularly stupid people who ought to stick to watching sports.
15:21 signpost re: the particular subj, I admit to not having tried the more recent schemes, but find most of what I need in a lisp in CL, and lack of moving target a plus.
15:24 asciilifeform see also re subj.
15:24 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-02-04 asciilifeform: outside of unix planet, typical example of type 3 failure is r5rs scheme (which is ~impossible to write nontrivial program in without reintroducing good % of what makes it seem 'light' vs commonlisp )
15:24 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-08-07 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229675 << complicated. scheme is an example of a 'suckless movement' that didn't catch on. that is, 'throw out all the legacy crud', but after that the thing has to be inhabited. if not inhabited, then dies young, while leaving, yes, beautiful corpse
~ 15 minutes ~
15:39 mangol signpost: asciilifeform: thanks for the thoughtful remarks. tbh, this is exactly the kind of discussion i was hoping to find here
15:40 mangol the problem with most debates is not that they're debates, but that most of the debaters 1) have a shallow understanding of the topic; and 2) are more interested in tearing things down than supporting existing things and building new ones
15:41 mangol shallow people can easily generate lengthy and controversial debates where their arguments seem impressive to other shallow people, and sometimes turn into netwide memes that go on for a decade or more
15:43 mangol 1) is rarely a problem without 2). a shallow understanding, in someone more interested in creation than destruction, quickly develops into a deeper understanding
15:44 mangol CL vs Scheme makes for a great flamebait topic like that. Naggum had at least one insightful remark on it (i.e. that Scheme is incompatible with CL and so dilutes Lisp's brand). i consider it partly obsolete.
15:45 signpost belief that there's one shared reality, that one human's rarely sufficient to see all of it, and in the iterated solution to the prisoners' dilemma gets one pretty far imho.
~ 16 minutes ~
16:02 mangol sounds like a decent approach
16:03 mangol IMHO most fruitful to see people as processes. people have very different personalities, and when you put a particular kind of personality in a specific kind of formative environment, a peculiar information-gathering process develops
16:04 mangol which has peculiar strengths and weaknesses
16:04 mangol collect enough personalities and you slowly learn who to go to for what kind of topic or perspective
16:06 mangol the culturally approved method is to gather "objective facts". the main reason i seek crackpot forums like this is that people don't do that here.
16:07 mangol and the force of personality is multiplied when creating new things instead of simply learning about existing ones. (not that learning isn't a small kind of creation in its own right)
16:10 mangol so ultimately i'd like to build a bunch of cool stuff, and am missing many of the personalities required to do so :)
16:11 mangol i'm reminded of asciilifeform 's "fungible cogs" essay. cogs don't create new kinds of things.
16:12 signpost nope, what they create is slave empires, in aggregate. old as history.
16:12 * signpost must bbl
~ 15 minutes ~
16:28 mangol signpost = trinque?
16:32 shinohai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084545 <<< The fact that it doesn't "scale" is a feature and not bug imho.
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16:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 08:36:31 mangol: PeterL: i assumed asciilifeform has a plan for scaling Pest, but maybe that's not a goal to begin with
16:32 shinohai $vwap
16:32 busybot The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 40236.68 USD
16:32 shinohai $ticker btc usd
16:32 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $40210.12
16:33 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084536 My model is primarily concerned with form, mangol. When I resumed studying Latin, I realized I could get a higher-level Elision with much less work, albeit not without difficulties in entering existing Latin texts into the system.
16:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 06:31:41 mangol: re: Elision, my first impression is it sounds like a project which would have the same strengths and weaknesses as Cyc
16:35 signpost mangol: yep that's correct
16:36 mangol signpost: (and why not verisimilitude and others): what languages do you use currently for hobby projects?
16:36 mangol i have a ton of ideas, especially around the lisp family, so would be interesting to compare notes
16:36 signpost verisimilitude: been a pet hunch of mine that english is a barrier to machine inference over language because it's syntactic goop.
16:37 signpost mangol: typically CL over here, python "in anger" sometimes.
16:38 mangol neat. is deedbot written in CL?
16:38 signpost it is
16:39 signpost http://trinque.org/src << can be found here
16:39 shinohai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084583 <<< Wouldja believe Ms Shinohai already asked that question? lol
16:39 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 10:41:40 PeterL: pest-sexchat when?
16:39 signpost shinohai: wot-tronic sex work is a when-not-if
16:39 signpost obvious application imho, good for all involved
16:41 * shinohai had the problem that only women far South of his current local had half a brain to grok the benefits ....
16:41 PeterL I use python, and have done some small projects with ada in the past
16:41 shinohai "But my cashapp Bitcoin wallet only gives me `3` addys, y can't you pay me?"
16:41 signpost myup
16:42 mangol signpost: thanks for the src link, will peruse
16:42 signpost world getting more dangerous will solve these pretenses, and starve the north american ones down to a respectable size to boot.
16:43 signpost questionable whether that solves anything regarding the lifetime of imitation food
16:44 shinohai Nah not unless you get one of the aforementioned non-americanized grils that cooks fresh daily.
16:44 mangol PeterL: i will probably never be useful for Ada. my low-level programming goal is to take existing large C codebases and auto-translate them into a better type system. not yet clear whether this is feasible. finding it out will take years of work.
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16:44 * shinohai inhales the aroma of fresh arepas as we speak .....
16:45 signpost shinohai: found myself a lovely blend of redneck and well-read. don't expect the experiment is repeatable, lol
16:45 PeterL mangol: why don't you think you will get ada? I find it much easier to understand when reading it than c/c++
16:45 mangol PeterL: will probably get ada, but won't be able to invest the time to write useful code
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16:46 mangol signpost: congrats!
16:46 signpost girl can just as well discuss european literature as rig a makeshift still
16:46 shinohai Sadly signpost the only reading redneck girls do in my locale is the back of boxes of cold medicine to see if contains right ingredients for meth-making.
16:47 mangol lol
16:47 signpost texas is a special place, or was!
16:47 mangol meth-making and matchmaking are mutually exclusive
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16:47 signpost tbh I credit the proximity of mexican culture.
16:48 shinohai Well I mean I have Colombian girls in the house but we don't process freebase coke.
16:49 * signpost dated a colombiana
16:49 mangol freebase and FreeBSD also don't fit in the same community, or so i imagine
16:49 shinohai But they do know how to enter a chroot which is nice.
16:49 signpost very smart and batshit crazy
16:49 signpost was fun!
16:50 signpost mangol: what do you keep yourself busy with in meatspace?
16:50 * signpost assumes programming
16:50 * shinohai rather likes the fiery temper part of these girls
16:51 mangol signpost: you're not wrong
16:54 mangol signpost: asciilifeform: re: Lisp and Scheme, my current thinking is to summarize them as follows:
16:54 mangol Lisp = representing code as lists
16:54 mangol CL = Lisp + closures + generic functions
16:54 mangol Scheme = Lisp + closures + tail calls
16:55 verisimilitude I use Ada, APL, Common Lisp, and the other main project of mine regards hardcore machine code hacking, mangol.
16:55 mangol everything else is incidental, unless i forgot something
16:55 verisimilitude Oh, there's also this.
16:55 signpost mangol: TCO is nice, but SBCL and iirc several other implementations have it
16:56 * signpost prefers to think recursively
16:57 verisimilitude It's not guaranteed.
16:58 mangol signpost: me too
16:58 mangol Tail Call Optimisation in Common Lisp Implementations
16:59 mangol some Scheme implementations also have generic functions
16:59 mangol and some C compilers can do TCO
16:59 signpost verisimilitude is correct I believe, certain forms around the tail call, or lack of optimization flags thwart tail-call optimization in sbcl
16:59 mangol the essence of a language is to embody a particular programming style (which some other langs/compilers can also do, but it's not the main thing there)
17:00 mangol generic functions are the essence of CL (as distinguished from Maclisp and Scheme)
17:00 mangol tail calls are the essence of Scheme. (contrary to popular belief, first-class continuations are not)
17:02 mangol verisimilitude: re: Ada, APL, CL -- sounds like you're the language connoisseur of the channel
17:04 mangol interestingly, a lot of CL programmers (myself included) don't use GFs very much, sticking closer to the trad. dialect. like many C++ programmers stick to C style
17:14 signpost mangol: in that deedbot code you'll even see me naming generics in a java-OOP influenced way.
17:15 signpost it was earlier in my practice with the language.
17:19 signpost e.g. ircbot-connect vs connect
17:22 mangol i started out that way too. (am by no means an OOP wizard, and would love to talk to somebody who is to find out more about the philosophy)
17:23 mangol Smalltalk (and Ruby = Smalltalk + Perl) is class-centric. CLOS (and Dylan IIRC) is method-centric
17:24 mangol a Smalltalk-80 implementation in CLOS would be very enlightening to compare the two approaches
17:24 signpost right, my sense is that my naming should've described classes of object-interaction, not the hierarchy of objects acted upon.
17:24 signpost "object protocols" is probably the right term
17:25 mangol exactly. (the idea, that is; not sure about the terminology -- not enough OOP cred)
17:26 mangol it's my impression that people who build big, long-lived systems invariably find that hierarchies are too constraining
17:26 mangol whence sprung the increasingly popular "composition, not inheritance" meme
17:27 mangol fortuitously, method-centric OOP demotes inheritance into almost an implementation detail
17:29 mangol a lot of people, myself included, find thinking about class hierarchies almost impossible, whereas thinking about composition (protocols) is natural
17:30 signpost yep, had that one thumped into my head at last $megacorp job, almost to excess
17:30 mangol http://trinque.org/src/ -- ircbot-* and logbot-* together encompass several different but related bots?
17:30 signpost nah, failure of comoposition!
17:30 signpost latter adds a db connection, former just connects to irc
~ 15 minutes ~
17:45 verisimilitude I don't care too much about CLOS, but use it when I see opportunity. The programming style I champion most is done easily in most any language.
17:46 verisimilitude Whereas CLOS has :BEFORE, :AFTER, and :AROUND methods to deal with irregularities, my style supports them so easily.
17:49 mangol verisimilitude: "The programming style I champion most is done easily in most any language." --> a common sentiment among good programmers
17:50 mangol verisimilitude: in my experience, people who arrive at this sentiment flock around Scheme and ML a lot
17:50 mangol i've heard at least two other schemers explicitly say the same. these are "lambda calculus assembly language", tongue only half in cheek
17:51 verisimilitude This is the programming style I champion most.
17:52 mangol tabular programming?
17:52 mangol aka table-oriented programming ("TOP")
17:52 verisimilitude Yes and no.
17:53 verisimilitude Read it.
17:53 mangol verisimilitude: to a useful approximation, CL is CLOS, and CLOS is generic functions (i.e. method-oriented OOP)
17:54 verisimilitude Yes, but the error in that approximation is so painful.
17:55 mangol the parts of CL that aren't CLOS (or CLOS-like) are trad. lisp with some cruft cleaned up, and excellent libraries.
17:55 verisimilitude Yes.
17:56 mangol Emacs Lisp is approx. what you get when you take CLOS out of CL
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17:56 verisimilitude No.
~ 20 minutes ~
18:17 mangol verisimilitude: i read your essay but i can't quite parse what is the extra ingredient on top of TOP
18:32 verisimilitude Link me to an article on table-oriented programming. We may have read the same thing.
18:33 mangol https://wiki.c2.com/?TableOrientedProgramming
18:37 verisimilitude Using JavaScript and cookies, I still can't view what garbage into which he turned that wiki.
18:41 verisimilitude I found the raw JSON.
18:47 verisimilitude I've several answers, but will finish reading first, so let us discuss this in a few hours, mangol.
↖
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
20:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084654 << autotranslation of proggies is generally a dead end. and not only because produces in ~all cases ~unreadable soup. but e.g. how wouldja 'automatically' remove reliance on pointerism from c liquishit ? in vast majority of cases, braindamage which 'comes with' a lang aint removable except by vehehery careful rethought of entire proggy
↖
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 12:44:05 mangol: PeterL: i will probably never be useful for Ada. my low-level programming goal is to take existing large C codebases and auto-translate them into a better type system. not yet clear whether this is feasible. finding it out will take years of work.
20:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084658 << can't resist to ask, have you read asciilifeform's ffa series ? imho entirely usable 'intro to ada'
20:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 12:45:21 mangol: PeterL: will probably get ada, but won't be able to invest the time to write useful code
20:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084664 << 'meth-maker, meth-maker, make me a ...'(tm)(r)(c)
20:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 12:47:09 mangol: meth-making and matchmaking are mutually exclusive
20:24 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084727 << mno, [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-06-19#1826933][nope[
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 13:55:32 mangol: Emacs Lisp is approx. what you get when you take CLOS out of CL
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2020-07-03 20:17:15 asciilifeform: cuz elisp has the efficiency & reliability of a trs-80 soldered from dumpster scraps
20:24 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-06-19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elisp is a gnarly surviver of dark age 1970s lisps, suffers -- unfixably -- from problems long ago solved even in 'scheme' (e.g. 'funarg problem')
20:24 asciilifeform grr
20:24 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084727 << mno, nope
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 13:55:32 mangol: Emacs Lisp is approx. what you get when you take CLOS out of CL
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2020-07-03 20:17:15 asciilifeform: cuz elisp has the efficiency & reliability of a trs-80 soldered from dumpster scraps
20:24 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-06-19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elisp is a gnarly surviver of dark age 1970s lisps, suffers -- unfixably -- from problems long ago solved even in 'scheme' (e.g. 'funarg problem')
20:31 asciilifeform ... meanwhile, cement testbed at 645+k
20:33 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084626 << lolyes. asciilifeform would like to meet the fella who thinks he has over9000 folx worth exchanging keys & directly peering with
20:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 12:31:39 shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084545 <<< The fact that it doesn't "scale" is a feature and not bug imho.
20:33 verisimilitude He has a name, abbreviated by U and S.
20:33 asciilifeform lol
20:36 * shinohai sees pest as appendage of wot, where one doesn't keep garbage keys around in personal keyring ...
~ 37 minutes ~
21:14 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084735 << sorry, i wasn't being precise. auto-translating into a language with a better type system. the system needs an "unsafe" escape hatch for pointers. it may be possible to mechanically translate some pointer code into safe types with the help of hints from the programmer; haven't looked into it.
21:14 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 16:20:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084654 << autotranslation of proggies is generally a dead end. and not only because produces in ~all cases ~unreadable soup. but e.g. how wouldja 'automatically' remove reliance on pointerism from c liquishit ? in vast majority of cases, braindamage which 'comes with' a lang aint removable except by vehehery careful rethought of entire proggy
21:15 verisimilitude Ada uses access types very sparingly, mangol.
21:15 verisimilitude Ada encourages a programming style very different than the C language.
21:15 mangol the idea is that one can incrementally translate unsafe code into safe code. C code is translated into "safe" C++ in this way, but C++ is broken beyond repair so it'd be nice to have something simpler and better
21:16 verisimilitude This is a fundamentally mistaken way.
21:16 mangol what's the mistake?
21:16 verisimilitude The only way to do something similar well is completely rewriting it.
21:17 mangol that's my main motivation -- nobody can rewrite all our legacy C code from scratch. even if you take the capabilities of a modest Unix system
21:18 verisimilitude Who would want to do that?
21:18 verisimilitude UNIX is vile shit.
21:18 mangol i'd hazard a guess you're typing that on a unix-like OS
21:18 verisimilitude No, in Emacs.
21:18 mangol running on unix
21:19 verisimilitude Listen here and well, mangol, popularity is no indication of quality, or why would UNIX be better than Windows?
21:19 verisimilitude Windows is more popular.
21:19 verisimilitude Oh, but Windows is obviously shit, so that doesn't count, right?
21:20 mangol well, you have to run either of those if you wanna do anything practical
21:20 verisimilitude Should it be so forever?
21:20 mangol both are written in C (Windows probably quite a bit of C++ as well)
21:21 verisimilitude People here are interested in escaping this nonsense, not embracing it, mangol.
21:21 mangol countless people have volunteered to write a better OS, yet virtually no people can use the results
21:21 verisimilitude They existed once, and, in the words of asciilifeform, no one can uninvent them.
21:22 verisimilitude UNIX and Windows are already on the way out, for the next generation of this attitude, the WWW with JavaScript.
21:22 mangol this is not a question of right vs wrong ways to do computing -- it's a question of whether or not incremental approaches have any value
21:22 verisimilitude Sure; I'd argue they usually don't.
21:23 mangol that's where we differ
21:23 mangol i put virtually all of my effort into incremental stuff
21:23 verisimilitude I've recently written a binding to the underlying UDP interface for Ada, mangol, and I'm taking pains to contain it so that it won't spread to everything which it touches.
21:23 mangol nothing wrong with from-scratch efforts, but virtually all of them should be considered "research"
21:25 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084734 I'm ready now.
21:25 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 14:46:33 verisimilitude: I've several answers, but will finish reading first, so let us discuss this in a few hours, mangol.
21:25 verisimilitude Those approaches are concerned with programming as in a database.
21:26 verisimilitude I'm concerned with representing a function as static data, as much as feasible.
21:26 verisimilitude The only variable data in my Roman Numerals program are the indices.
21:27 verisimilitude I then show how the approach makes it easy to prove software correct, and how I can even encode the inverse function easily.
21:28 verisimilitude I want to reduce the code, the actual code, to its minimum.
21:28 verisimilitude The differences should be clear now.
21:29 mangol where others would use code, you prefer to have data?
21:30 verisimilitude Yes.
21:31 verisimilitude It's compression; the program could be represented as a collection of all possible answers.
21:32 verisimilitude By ``tabular'', I mean any arrangement of static data; one design for a later program will use a trie in one part, as an example.
21:33 mangol sure
21:33 mangol i assume you've come across the branch of information theory where the amount of information in some data = length of shortest known program to generate that data
21:34 mangol chaitin, kolmogorov, etc.
21:38 mangol re: #asciilifeform and incremental approaches -- Naggum was a staunch proponent of incrementalism. notably, he lambasted young people who think they can improve upon CL by starting from scratch
21:38 signpost verisimilitude: I worked under a gent once upon a time who espoused the same data fundamentalism.
21:39 signpost probably good lisp code tends toward what you describe as well, where what was imperative code ends up a declarative DSL for the problem-space.
21:39 signpost see a lot of merit in it, actually.
21:40 signpost mangol: heh, this is not meant as a throwaway comment, but Naggum ulcered himself to death too.
21:40 signpost man not separable from works.
21:42 mangol AFAICT the main cause of naggum's untimely death was financial stress, which in turn was caused by some weird principle whereby he refused to pay his taxes
↖
21:42 mangol he was conscientious to a fault, so no doubt was stressed about other stuff too, but that was the clincher
21:42 signpost then not through-and-through incrementalist, or why did paying his taxes bother him?
21:43 * signpost hates the state in all forms, but worthwhile question.
21:43 mangol nobody is a through-and-through anything
21:44 signpost still these incoherent outputs, and the creatures that produce them, interest me perhaps more than anything.
21:44 signpost sure the thing can operate in a state of contradiction just fine. yet it knows it does, and still... does!
21:45 mangol i'm pretty sure anyone who says humans are incoherent, is using a less effective definition of coherence than what nature is using
21:45 signpost nature's mighty comfortable with eventual consistency, surely.
21:46 verisimilitude I'm aware, mangol.
21:48 signpost mangol: still that's a large shadow in which to hide things, that because nature allows for conflict, also conflict within oneself is productive.
21:48 mangol nature doesn't seek consistency in the things where inconsistency is easiest for us to notice
21:48 signpost probably wouldn't argue with that, still naggum's noteworthy both in his works, and downfall.
21:49 mangol yeah :)
21:49 mangol brilliant people tend to have inexplicable weird habits and beliefs
21:49 verisimilitude I just checked; gravity still applies; nature is consistent.
21:49 signpost some of that I suspect is a hobbling meme
21:49 signpost nerd cannot also talk to girls; that sort of thing.
21:50 verisimilitude Rumors start in truth, signpost.
21:50 verisimilitude I'm certainly touched in the head.
21:50 signpost yes, but do not consummate truth.
21:50 * signpost wiggles eyebrows
21:51 shinohai Quid est veritas?
21:52 verisimilitude VĒRITĀS EST VĒRITĀS
21:52 signpost shinohai: I suppose that's what the eventually consistent algo mangol mentioned is evaluating.
21:52 verisimilitude VĒRITĀS QVOQVE ERAT VĒRITĀS
21:52 signpost give it time.
21:52 shinohai aha
21:53 signpost as a side note, it's one of those magnificent days in Austin, approx 75F, sun shining.
21:53 mangol signpost: "conflict within oneself is productive" >> IIRC this was the main point of Minsky's book Society of Mind
21:53 signpost pouring caffeine into my head at a favored spot
21:54 mangol neat. snow here :D
21:54 signpost mangol: oughta unpack conflict, unfamiliar with the book
21:54 signpost mangol: that's any given day in Finland, no?
21:54 signpost :D
21:54 mangol i wish :D
21:55 signpost there is the productive kind of conflict, where one divides himself into a sort of honest representation of uncertainty regarding a given problem.
21:55 signpost and the unproductive, where the truth has been long known, yet ignored.
21:55 * signpost sees both the former and latter in the character of naggum.
21:55 signpost (well and in us all, which is why it's even interesting to say)
21:57 signpost lemme give an example. on the subject of one's own death, cannot be divided.
21:57 mangol this is a very personal opinion that i don't expect anyone to share, but in my experience, a pronounced concern with ethics is a red flag for long-term failure of the naggum variety
21:57 signpost most of the failures of our contemporaries have to do with division towards that one.
21:57 signpost mangol: expand, really depends.
21:57 signpost maybe he wanted to "joe stack" that way, and here we are still talking about it.
21:57 signpost perhaps he's satisfied.
21:58 signpost *would be
21:59 mangol a lot of the stuff we do in civilized societies is luxury afforded by idleness -- stuff that disappears as soon as there's something actually at stake. ethics tends to be at the top of that list (i.e. one of the most expendable things humanity has invented)
22:00 mangol people who spend time thinking about ethics are spending time thinking about something that virtually all people will just throw by the wayside the moment they stand to lose or gain something
22:01 signpost skeptical. are we going to trust each-other enough to survive in the ancestral environment if I'm ever-waiting to stab you in the side?
22:01 signpost the luxury is in never encountering ethical dilemma, not in considering it
22:01 mangol IMHO morality is very real, ethics is wishful thinking on top
22:01 signpost problem of definitions then
22:02 signpost interpersonal honor is the only thing that matters when the luxuries run dry
↖
22:02 mangol morality comes from the animal part of us. group cohesion is impossible without it. ethics is some codified fiction about how someone thinks morality will work
22:02 signpost perhaps say what you consider to be the difference
22:03 mangol morality doesn't require thinking (i.e. rationality) to work. even animals can do it (e.g. prioritize their kin or group)
22:03 signpost sure, derived from god, or instinct, as you like
22:03 mangol whereas ethics consists entirely of thinking, abstractions
22:04 signpost dunno that ethics are expendable like this, even in the hard "outside".
22:04 signpost suppose your brother lay dying, shot, as you've been ambushed. the attackers are headed to your town.
22:04 signpost do you render aid to your brother, or rush back to warn.
22:06 signpost reason might cause you to do something which avoids the pitfalls of crude heuristics in the moment.
22:08 verisimilitude The moral is survival.
22:08 signpost of whom
22:08 verisimilitude It could be the individual, or his children, or his friends.
22:08 mangol signpost: i'd be very surprised if someone makes an ethical (e.g. trolley problem style) decision in that kind of scenario. probably the animal part of their body will drive them toward a decision, and the concious mind will confabulate some explanation if needed
22:09 verisimilitude I like how I solve the trolley problem.
22:10 signpost verisimilitude: the lack of weights assigned to the people involved is certainly a problem. supposes human fungibility as a given.
22:10 signpost mangol: how many such situations do you suppose it takes to desensitize one to the immediate feeling?
22:12 * signpost would not be surprised if harsher living conditions result in *more* rational decisionmaking, not more "animal" urge.
22:13 signpost even worthwhile to consider the political usefulness of creating space within which "I would've done otherwise, but urge overwhelmed" is allowable.
22:13 verisimilitude Oh, we may see less aposematism, signpost?
22:14 signpost another item to unpack at length
22:14 verisimilitude That's why I insult the stupidity of those who take the trolley problem seriously, signpost.
22:14 verisimilitude Such philosophical nonsense is worthless to me.
22:14 * signpost figures the ancients had the dispensative / receptive sexual categories correct.
22:15 signpost verisimilitude: yeah, it's constructed to get you to say "I would of *course* save the side with more voters!"
22:15 mangol signpost: rational decision-making doesn't have to be ethical decision-making
22:15 verisimilitude Why stop there? Why not include sexual responsibilities and attitudes towards the unknown?
22:15 signpost mangol: pull 'em apart for me
22:16 mangol ethics is a specific kind of rationality -- one that involves moral "shoulds"
22:17 mangol rationality is just any anticipation of consequences by reasoning, doesn't need to have a moral aspect, and definitely doesn't have to be morally "correct"
22:17 signpost hmmm
22:17 mangol ethics is about putting morality into a self-consistent system. rationality can just take morality as is, without passing judgment on it
22:18 * signpost considers certain outcomes of reasoning inevitable given correct definitions of being
22:18 signpost but that's by no means straightforward or settled.
22:22 mangol concretely, people like Naggum and RMS e.g. expressed ethical concerns about US presidents, as if presidents were selected on ethical grounds
22:23 mangol that kind of over-applied and mis-applied conscientiousness would eventually drive most people mad
22:24 mangol people who aren't brilliant-and-peculiar outliers tend to notice signs that they're going mad, and stop being so concerned about ethics
22:25 signpost why should I go mad by knowing US political outcomes are ethically indefensible?
22:25 signpost I do not also have such narcissism that I consider this my doing
22:25 signpost (and I suspect that latter bit is actually what's happening)
22:26 mangol you shouldn't, because you aren't an outlier of the naggum/rms variety :)
22:26 signpost democracy lies by telling each special atom that they're a fungible unit of sovereignty
22:26 mangol normal people don't feel a compulsion to follow principles to their conclusions
22:26 mangol even most abnormal people (such as this chan) don't feel such a compulsion very strongly. it's really quite rare
↖
22:27 signpost exceptional people can still be infantile in the ways they refuse to inspect.
22:27 signpost see: Mircea Popescu
22:27 signpost it's this, not a consequence of their being exceptional.
22:27 mangol yep. another good example
22:27 signpost just that nothing says being a towering intellect means you learn to wipe your arse correctly
22:28 signpost or, you know, swim with, not against.
22:28 signpost (or without rum)
22:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084807 << mno, not imho accurate summary at all; naggum's tax for ref.
↖
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 17:41:26 mangol: AFAICT the main cause of naggum's untimely death was financial stress, which in turn was caused by some weird principle whereby he refused to pay his taxes
22:31 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084860 << honor is real, if 'not evenly distributed'. plenty of folx when rubber hits the road prioritize something other than own skin. whether you grow up hearing about'em depends heavily on yer culture, the anglo space is particularly rotten in this respect
↖
22:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 18:01:52 signpost: interpersonal honor is the only thing that matters when the luxuries run dry
22:33 asciilifeform some cultures -- 'split'. modern ru for instance by asciilifeform's analysis largely divides into descendents of a) folx who did right thing in ww2 b) scum who 'looked after own skin' , and each behaves moar or less as one'd expect
22:34 * signpost had the benefit of a (retired) italian culture on one side, largely evident by "something used to be here" than "something is", and mil on other.
22:34 asciilifeform sometimes entire cultures succumb to 'psychology of the traitor' (ru concept w/ very little exposure in engl., outside of #t/#a lol) -- e.g. south kr (100% of elite traceable to collaborators w/ japanese then american colonizers), ukristan
22:34 signpost former rotted within a generation of exposure to american air.
22:35 signpost latter into "what, we were men, for this?"
22:35 asciilifeform the closest engl. term afaik -- 'hamstering'
22:36 asciilifeform alternates b/w 'it was inevitable', 'foreigners were simply Better Than Us', 'we Just Wanted to drink bavarian(tm)' and a good % of time 'mno it didn't happen whatcha talking about' when rubbed nose 1st into the act of betrayal
22:37 signpost one can see something of this, perhaps prelude, of, in silicon valley.
22:38 signpost welcoming e.g. chicom culture into the states and getting paid obscenely
22:38 asciilifeform cultures where the traitorous scum 'lost' (such 'loss' sadly always temporary) -- north kr, yugoslavia ( both ruled after the war by partisan commanders who stood up for native soil ), to partial degree su
22:38 asciilifeform china notably
22:38 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084903 I do.
22:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 18:26:21 mangol: even most abnormal people (such as this chan) don't feel such a compulsion very strongly. it's really quite rare
22:38 signpost *prelude of
22:39 asciilifeform (on cn tv still one can see historical dramas about partisans tortured by japanese gestapo etc, and the collaborationist scum all were pushed off to their scum island, nao usg's 'unsinkable carrier'(tm))
22:39 verisimilitude The Japanese almost destroyed the communists, apparently, but had to defend against the US.
22:39 asciilifeform at any rate nato reich took the angle of simply destroying errybody's very concept of 'native soil'
22:40 asciilifeform 'why should i die for this hotel' will answer today's usa, uk, fr, de, etc inmate.
22:40 verisimilitude I'm sure they also have programs about how the four pests campaign went wonderfully, if they even mention it, asciilifeform.
22:40 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik not
22:40 * signpost is no friend of CN, but they're inarguably one of the few over there that don't round to american colony.
22:40 asciilifeform there's a 'clef' to the 'roman a clef' imho.
22:40 verisimilitude We had this discussion a week or so ago.
22:41 asciilifeform some cultures 'alive' (if ill), others -- had 'heart cut out'
22:41 verisimilitude I can believe North Korea is independent; China obviously isn't.
22:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what's it dependent on ?
22:41 signpost bud CN will probably be one of the great outmaneuvers of all history.
22:41 verisimilitude They're called ``lizards'' here, asciilifeform.
22:42 signpost they are positioning themselves for world empire.
22:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what do the lizards supply to cn that it can't do without ? green toilet paper?
22:42 signpost j00z better get moving.
22:42 verisimilitude I don't know.
22:43 signpost asciilifeform: one thing that I question is whether putin believes the chicoms are his friend.
22:43 asciilifeform signpost: fella's got moar brain than that
22:43 signpost just looks like somebody else about to stick a straw in the slavs
22:43 signpost I would assume.
22:43 asciilifeform 'only friends of ru are its army and navy'(tm)(r)(alex the 1st)
22:43 verisimilitude Israel has sold plenty of weapons to China.
22:44 verisimilitude We'll see what else China gets, and from whom.
22:45 asciilifeform see also.
22:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-03 00:43:16 asciilifeform: if continues on that trajectory, eventually result -- 'eurasian reich'.
22:45 signpost seems both RU and CN hadn't much issue demonstrating working hypersonics
22:45 signpost US less so.
22:45 asciilifeform together they add up to a su circa 1960s, w/ modern irons.
22:45 signpost iirc j00z also lacking in these
22:46 verisimilitude Intel has plants in Israel, right?
22:46 asciilifeform the 1 natural resource abundant in ru & cn, and not muchly elsewhere, that aint listed in any 'cia fact book', is 'willingness to die for motherland'
22:47 asciilifeform it can't be poured into barrels , bought&sold etc. but is a thing.
22:47 verisimilitude That really helped them during the Opium Wars, asciilifeform.
↖
22:47 verisimilitude Of course, now they have the white man's weapons, so it's different.
22:47 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it arguably ~generated~ by -- not least -- the opium wars.
22:47 signpost asciilifeform: don't get much of this pouring unwanted peasants into factories on another continent, and eventually rewarding some of them with "congrats! yer white nao!"
22:48 verisimilitude That really helped them during the Japanese occupation, asciilifeform.
22:48 asciilifeform verisimilitude: current-day cn in fact 'celebrates' a 'national humiliation day'
22:48 signpost verisimilitude: the pretense that CN can only steal "white man's" weapons is going to get white man killed
22:49 verisimilitude I doubt it, signpost.
22:49 signpost I would welcome your doubt being proved justified.
22:49 signpost :p
22:49 asciilifeform verisimilitude: national humiliations have a kind of 'maxwell's daemon' effect on folx.
22:49 asciilifeform (how -- see above thrd)
22:49 verisimilitude Where are the Chinese-made weapons that aren't disease and famine?
22:49 asciilifeform some % -- become a nation. some % -- taiwanize.
22:50 verisimilitude If the US fights China, those playing both sides will win anyway.
22:50 signpost https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/politics/john-hyten-china-hypersonic-weapons-test/index.html << reich's own news reports.
22:50 asciilifeform verisimilitude: lol just about erry plastic widget on yer desk, is a lethal cn weapon.
22:50 asciilifeform to the extent few others needed.
22:50 * signpost figures these are weapons so fearful they have to not exist, or be explained away.
22:50 signpost because otherwise gotta confront that... we don't have 'em
22:50 signpost iirc our last attempt broke up over pacific
22:51 verisimilitude China's known for accurate reporting, just like the USSR.
22:51 * asciilifeform entertained that folx still seem to think that 'who whom' decided by 'who has longer rocket'
22:51 signpost asciilifeform: at some point enemy can hit faster than you can launch, no?
22:51 signpost but sure, rot, far better, more effective.
22:51 verisimilitude No.
22:51 * signpost does not argue otherwise
22:51 verisimilitude What's a nuclear submarine, signpost?
↖
22:52 asciilifeform signpost: phunphakt, mao was in favour of getting it over with and having the nukefest
22:52 verisimilitude The glorious half will live, and the evil half will die, right, asciilifeform?
22:52 asciilifeform 'kill 90% of us , we're still cn, kill 90% of you, light out'
22:52 signpost asciilifeform: not an indefensible notion
22:52 asciilifeform may've heard mao's trademarked 'the bomb is a paper tiger'. is what ref here.
22:53 verisimilitude That paper tiger ripped through paper Japanese houses.
22:53 signpost verisimilitude: USA's utter lack of a traditional culture can't be denied.
22:53 signpost if the shelves ran dry, couple weeks of cannibalism and then zilch
22:53 verisimilitude I agree, signpost. I won't die for it.
22:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: at some pt will rip through the even paperier houses in asciilifeform's shithole, what of it
22:54 verisimilitude I suppose nothing of it, then.
22:54 asciilifeform (modern usa seems dead set on replicating hiroshima architecturally, for sumreason)
22:54 * signpost doesn't discount that something can emerge from actual suffering imposed, but what is unclear
22:54 signpost and birth of nations takes longer than a signpost interval
22:54 signpost so doesn't help me much.
22:55 verisimilitude Think about what would happen when the police no longer protect certain kinds of people, signpost.
22:55 asciilifeform the current great kingdoms emerged this way. is 'geological' observation, you can't exactly take it to the bank & cash it
22:57 signpost verisimilitude: right now I'm sitting on a coffee shop deck, and there's a "wild" rabbit sitting not 3ft from me.
22:57 asciilifeform and imho knowing the fact aint useless, despite this. is interesting to know that e.g. not 1 weapon in reich larger than rifle is made w/out chinesium parts. and not 1 factory.
22:57 signpost he's so desensitized to me that he approximately lacks the instincts needed to avoid me if I later decide he's lunch.
22:57 signpost the people that populate your country are the same.
22:57 asciilifeform cn philosophy 'sit by riverside and wait for enemy's corpse to float by' is in action as we speak.
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22:58 signpost were danger to re-emerge they'd be decimated, and sure, perhaps what's left contains some that can function, as randomness would have.
22:58 verisimilitude Sure, signpost.
22:58 verisimilitude We agree too many people are alive today.
22:58 signpost well and, once the real is encountered, too few.
22:58 asciilifeform btw modern cn party line is that they're ~under~ populated
22:59 asciilifeform (prev. 'party line' 'worked too well')
22:59 verisimilitude All of that infanticide must show their ability to think ahead.
22:59 asciilifeform e.g. ru is catastrophically underpopulated in current day
22:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-07 13:43:08 asciilifeform: ru demographic loss in '90s exceeded ww2 losses by solid margin. (and this not even counting the seceded territories)
22:59 verisimilitude At least the infanticide in the US has a clear purpose.
22:59 signpost US also under replacement rate iirc
23:00 asciilifeform (no small part of why ru loox like such a delicious pie to invaders)
23:02 asciilifeform at any rate, upstack, 'country' that becomes 'hotel', where at 1st sign of trouble errybody runs to wherever legs will carry'em -- is already 'lost'
23:03 asciilifeform in such shithole, even long before war, 'no, won't build factory here, will build in cooliestan and buy 3 yachts w/ the difference' is tolerated, encouraged, until hollow shell
23:03 asciilifeform 'hotel'.
23:03 signpost that RU does not appear to be susceptible to USSR memberberries, but Tsar-era, oughta be instructive.
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23:03 signpost US has no tsar era to which to return.
23:03 signpost the utopian mistake is all there ever was.
23:04 * asciilifeform must bbl
23:04 * signpost gonna find some food also, cya
23:12 signpost verisimilitude: will say, the desire for a solution to this dead end was core to my involement in tmsr.
23:13 signpost even considered mp one of the most likely folks able to resurrect being european contemporarily.
23:13 signpost gods said otherwise.
23:15 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1085028 << in ru folx view history as continuous whole, roughly from 1k a.d. up. to some degree this pov imposed 'top-down' but quite large afaik 'grass root' component to it.
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 19:02:56 signpost: that RU does not appear to be susceptible to USSR memberberries, but Tsar-era, oughta be instructive.
23:15 asciilifeform in e.g. jp similar pov. is almost definitionally a thing in actual nations.
23:21 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084913 >> agree. seems humans (esp. men) have honor hardwired. it's expressed to varying degrees. not sure whether non-human animals have any vestige of it.
23:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 18:30:47 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084860 << honor is real, if 'not evenly distributed'. plenty of folx when rubber hits the road prioritize something other than own skin. whether you grow up hearing about'em depends heavily on yer culture, the anglo space is particularly rotten in this respect
23:22 asciilifeform mangol: depends whatcha count. e.g. insect kingdom has 'die for motherland' 100% covered
23:22 verisimilitude The US was founded by extremists and a new society can be built by the same.
23:22 asciilifeform all new things built by 'extremists', verisimilitude
23:22 verisimilitude I'll find a counterexample.
23:23 mangol below replacement fertility is considered a 'moderate' political position in many places
23:23 mangol among many other examples
23:24 verisimilitude Does food count?
23:28 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084911 << i got my info from the same comment as you, asciilifeform. did i misinterpret it? seems he was right to object to the tax, but couldn't let go of the matter
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23:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-16 18:27:55 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084807 << mno, not imho accurate summary at all; naggum's tax for ref.
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