Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-01-26 | 2022-01-28 →
00:01 asciilifeform for completeness: if yer ~unable~ to emit a valid 'unlock' for yer handle's prev.msg, yer either a) impostor, and fuckyou b) somebody whose pestnet just merged with anuther where there's a second 'you'. in which case is right & proper that yer orig. net sees you as $speaker and the new folx as $speaker-2 c) yer a poor bastard who blew away his hdd.
00:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 10:07:34 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076611 << on ea. of the merged nets, stations would see 'their' blue as the authentic one.
00:01 asciilifeform (c) will drink bitter cup, of either switching handles or being 'bozo-2' to his l2+ 4evah
00:02 asciilifeform (b) in principle need not do anyffing in particular
00:03 asciilifeform (a) eats shit, as he's perma-distinguishable from the genuine article, except if he can cultivate a 'pet' sub-pestnet where he's the chokepoint b/w them & yours, and he's willing to impersonate $speaker erry day
00:04 asciilifeform (the subterfuge collapses if the victims manage to receive a new, valid msg on the oldest chain)
00:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 11:59:18 asciilifeform: to round off upstack thread -- dr.evil not only must fork, if he wants to forge, but must withhold all subsequent msgs from the original, or even folx who hear the victim only through him will discover the boojum
00:05 asciilifeform ... for l1 (i.e. peers), can ignore lock/unlock, or possibly emit brief warning if peer's msg broke chain ('hey, didja format yer hdd?')
00:05 asciilifeform thimbronion et al : afaik ^ that's the whole thing.
00:10 asciilifeform ^ ~all of this reduces to asciilifeform's algo from september , where (imho wrongly) declared it to be a dud
00:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-13 15:10:22 asciilifeform: either that, or -- from asciilifeform's chalkboard -- erry message includes 2 additional 256bit fields . one is H256(R) where R is a rng turd. the other is the R from previous.
00:10 asciilifeform currently thinking it's the Right Thing.
00:13 asciilifeform observe that, while dr.evil can forge historic msgs from $speaker, all it takes to fuck him is for 1 station on his net to discover 1 older msg. from $speaker (and be convinced that it in fact is older. conceivably he could 'plato's cave' an entire bogus history of the known universe, and fool ~somebody~)
00:16 asciilifeform dr.evil can set up his faux chain to seem 'oldest' to a new peer who relies 100% on his station for log catchup (via getdata). but if sees the genuine article (via sumbody else) 1st -- then no dice.
00:16 asciilifeform this is similar to the 'trb in cave' problem.
00:17 asciilifeform i.e. currently someone ~could~ in principle feed you an alt-2009...2022 set of blox. (is harder, on acct of pow, but not impossible)
00:18 asciilifeform in the proposed pest, naturally you dun have pow. all you have is yer wot, and yer trusting its logs not to be a 'cave' , yes.
00:22 asciilifeform ... all this w/ no long-term keys and no bignums. the only seekrits yer storing are your peer keys, 1 'S' for yer last broadcast, and 1 'S' per direct peer (for direct msgs.)
00:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 12:07:18 asciilifeform: on top of which, asciilifeform ~likes~ that there aint long-term keys in pest. pubkey crypto oughta be manually operated, i.e. consciously triggered at appropriate occasions, rather than sumthing a rando can cause you to do when he pleases
00:25 asciilifeform if you blow away yer station's hdd, you naturally will need to pgpgram yer peers & rekey. will lose yer 'S's, but 1) this won't affect yer direct peerings, and you'll need to poke'em anyway 2) if you give a strong fuck re what l2+ sees yer handle as, you make a new one.
00:25 * asciilifeform must bbl.
~ 46 minutes ~
01:11 scoopbot New post on whaack: The Possible Outcomes of Segwit
01:19 whaack PeterL: Small nit, maybe scoopbot should say "New article by _" instead of "New post on _"
~ 15 minutes ~
01:35 asciilifeform whaack: btw your arithmetic-puzzler doesn't seem to rng
01:35 asciilifeform whaack: ( asciilifeform posted 2 comments, both had same puzzler )
01:36 vex you could just change your hearder to whaack's super cool blog
01:40 vex actually, i'm going to use that, with all the 1992 colours
01:41 asciilifeform whaack: 1 'spoiler' -- a harden-segshit hardfork is factually equiv. to 'bch', and bombable via same algo.
01:41 asciilifeform hence wainot happened yet, imho obv.
01:43 asciilifeform hence wai asciilifeform quite convinced that segshitism would catch fire satisfyingly if the right 'thermite' could be found, i.e. mine a pile of blox where segshitolade is claimed.
01:43 asciilifeform i.e. if make it impossible to carry on the pretense of 'softness'.
01:44 vex why not test it?
01:44 asciilifeform vex: go, test
01:45 vex i don't understand seg
01:45 asciilifeform all you need is a coupla $mil wortha hashes
01:46 vex test it on a fork with diff 1
01:48 vex or does one need to emulate other players?
01:48 asciilifeform vex: it's a q re actual miners on the actual live chain, rather than the proggy. the only way to 'test' is to actually light that fire.
01:49 asciilifeform it's rather similar to where e.fermi et al did not have a rigorous proof that 1st nuke wouldn't chain-fission planet3, atmosphere, ocean & all
01:49 asciilifeform 'needs test'. tested.
01:51 asciilifeform ( iirc the proof of it from 1st principles was finally derived in... 1990s. )
01:55 asciilifeform anyways to date miner scum learned on own skin what happens when you try & fuck w/ orig. protocol, and in the process 'write phree cheque' to all hodlers, incl. 'dinosaurs'.
01:55 asciilifeform $ticker bch btc
01:55 busybot Current BCH price in BTC: $0.007835
01:56 vex that was a fork right?
01:56 * asciilifeform lulz at the apparent asymptotic neverending death of that thing
01:56 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-11 08:07:42 busybot: Current BCH price in BTC: $0.0104
01:56 asciilifeform vex: the original 'pushed from erry tv and clothes iron' fork
01:57 vex ahh. I almost remember, what was the "sell immediately"! price? do you remember
01:57 asciilifeform anyways^2 miners won't be lighting any such fires on their own. the q of wathappens if one were to light one ~for'em~ can only be answr'd empirically.
02:01 asciilifeform what you'd get is a moar or less exact replay of the bch warz. and yes conceivable that it'd somehow come out to 'megablox win' if all the folx who dumped bch have since contracted brainworm and luvvv megablox and pine for 1000GB hearnblox and fullbore paypalization
02:02 asciilifeform but not likely. hence wai no one fired 1st shot of this war yet.
02:02 vex the foundation prolly had a capital gains event when it swapped for bc
02:02 asciilifeform and when dust lands in the piggy also!11
02:02 asciilifeform used to happen regularly
02:03 asciilifeform (whatever happened to the 'dusters' ? not seen 1 in a while..)
02:03 * asciilifeform must bbl
02:03 vex no dice
02:04 vex cya
02:04 signpost https://archive.fo/7f2AG << with this days after RU central bank said "omg ban!", ain't no fucking way putin doesn't have a nice fat hodl
02:04 vex re retroactive tax law, I can totally see that happening.
02:09 vex yes diggity... bag it up
02:12 vex bingoboingo, power up the 808, we're redoing blackstreet
02:12 * signpost incidentally just got a recent roland box that includes decent 808 emu
~ 20 minutes ~
02:33 vex sweet
02:40 vex anyone got an amiga?
02:41 vex I'm imagining it ascending to ruski hardbass, then some pankkake style guitar thru a modtracker
02:42 * signpost finds renoise a pretty good and faithful to old-school tracker.
02:42 vex unfamiliar
02:42 signpost I fart around with that now and again.
02:46 vex ilet's make it a `10 min song that repeats erry 10 mins
02:47 vex if we're withholding blocks, can even programme the outro
02:50 vex china might ven wait to hear how it goes
02:54 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076804 < yes, and as i mention in the article, if the miners are SPV mining again, then it's very possible a single block can set off a permanent fork
02:54 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-27 01:43:14 asciilifeform: hence wai asciilifeform quite convinced that segshitism would catch fire satisfyingly if the right 'thermite' could be found, i.e. mine a pile of blox where segshitolade is claimed.
03:02 signpost even fragging the network into those that are and aren't would be entertaining and expose weakness.
03:08 vex I'n completely different. I hope mats doesn't move to wallstreet
03:12 vex or do. if your work precludes telling me what's up; I'll be more than a little sad
03:16 vex what are we buying lng tankers?
03:18 vex binance sent me packing. here's your coin, now bye
03:19 vex idk what i did
03:22 vex prolly too little.
03:28 vex oh wait. oh fuck
03:28 vex yeah
03:34 vex no passport
03:44 vex they do have a buterin compatible chain tho
03:45 vex non huffers oughta know that it's considered to be the most spammy
03:46 vex imo
03:51 thimbronion asciilifeform: ok I think I get the basic concept. under the previous design, intermediaries could block and impersonate. However, now with S, only the original user of a handle can prove they sent the previous message. Perhaps a listing of all the scenarios would help clarify things in the spec.
~ 33 minutes ~
04:24 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJC9mrX4y-Q&list=PLBCF0cGXYeqyjYSPeXi4IWODrswGSvJ36&index=7 on repeat for a week
04:29 vex cunt's last vidya includes hunter who dies of butt cancer
04:31 vex better to go bodysurfing in huge me thinks
04:33 vex wallet inspector. nope
04:36 vex we could stick a camera in your butt for 0.001 longer life expectancy. yea nah
~ 38 minutes ~
05:15 vex general practionon uoughta avoid butt sex
05:15 vex I've had two phizers and a moderna chaser
05:20 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87gWaABqGYs
05:22 vex van morrison isn't synoymous with niel young
05:22 vex can't fuck with van
05:24 vex halfwits rejoice
05:26 vex i left a pet on the roadf somewhere preferented niel
05:32 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UUWkr4FUlo
05:39 vex badman
~ 2 hours ~
07:40 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076775 << if net1 sees guy1 as "speaker" and guy2 as "speaker-2", and net2 sees guy1 as "speaker-2" and guy2 as "speaker" - how to address these ppl in messages? "hey speaker-2 wats up" << will appear to diff subnets that u are addressing diff guys
07:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 19:01:12 asciilifeform: for completeness: if yer ~unable~ to emit a valid 'unlock' for yer handle's prev.msg, yer either a) impostor, and fuckyou b) somebody whose pestnet just merged with anuther where there's a second 'you'. in which case is right & proper that yer orig. net sees you as $speaker and the new folx as $speaker-2 c) yer a poor bastard who blew away
07:40 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076794 << on impl. side u could hav S-buffer where keep 100 next S values so if hdd crash and last backup was 70 S's ago, doesnt matter
07:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 19:25:12 asciilifeform: if you blow away yer station's hdd, you naturally will need to pgpgram yer peers & rekey. will lose yer 'S's, but 1) this won't affect yer direct peerings, and you'll need to poke'em anyway 2) if you give a strong fuck re what l2+ sees yer handle as, you make a new one.
~ 5 hours 43 minutes ~
13:24 PeterL asciilifeform: should there be a "rename" command to change a peer's name?
13:28 PeterL !e view-height
13:28 trbexplorer block_height: 720601
13:28 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 3
13:37 PeterL !s version
13:37 scoopbot I am 'Scoopbot' version 720601.
13:40 PeterL http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076797 << it's grabbing the name of the blog from the RSS feed, not the author
13:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 20:19:51 whaack: PeterL: Small nit, maybe scoopbot should say "New article by _" instead of "New post on _"
~ 25 minutes ~
14:05 shinohai In hardware bitcoin wallet rekt: https://archive.is/9iBY3
~ 26 minutes ~
14:31 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076863 << afaik listed all the combos in thrd. lemme know if missed any.
14:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 22:51:49 thimbronion: asciilifeform: ok I think I get the basic concept. under the previous design, intermediaries could block and impersonate. However, now with S, only the original user of a handle can prove they sent the previous message. Perhaps a listing of all the scenarios would help clarify things in the spec.
14:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 18:57:58 asciilifeform: if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff'
14:35 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076878 << this is already a headache w/ the [] relayers notation, and will prolly require patching clients. the separate headache is the pov variants. prolly oughta identify all forked l2+ people as e.g. bozo-DEADBEEF w/ the turd identifying (remains to be seen how) the 1st msg of that fork
14:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 02:40:39 jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076775 << if net1 sees guy1 as "speaker" and guy2 as "speaker-2", and net2 sees guy1 as "speaker-2" and guy2 as "speaker" - how to address these ppl in messages? "hey speaker-2 wats up" << will appear to diff subnets that u are addressing diff guys
14:35 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076880 << could, tho this has the obv. opsec implications
14:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 02:40:52 jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076794 << on impl. side u could hav S-buffer where keep 100 next S values so if hdd crash and last backup was 70 S's ago, doesnt matter
14:37 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076882 << already in spec: 'AKA' / 'UNAKA'
14:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 08:24:23 PeterL: asciilifeform: should there be a "rename" command to change a peer's name?
14:38 PeterL does that work if you want to peer with two people who both have the same handle though?
14:38 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076890 << lulzy reich shithole indeed
14:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 09:05:25 shinohai: In hardware bitcoin wallet rekt: https://archive.is/9iBY3
14:38 asciilifeform PeterL: prohibited by spec
14:38 punkman https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/linux-system-service-bug-gives-root-on-all-major-distros-exploit-released/
14:39 PeterL I'm thinking of the situation where two nets come together, both have a guy named "bob", can one pick a different name without having to re-peer with everybody?
14:39 punkman "CVE-2021-4034 has been named PwnKit and its origin has been tracked to the initial commit of pkexec, more than 12 years ago, meaning that all Polkit versions are affected."
14:39 asciilifeform punkman: runmoar poetteringware!
14:39 punkman decade-old bug, nice
14:39 punkman I mean "bug"
14:40 asciilifeform punkman: see also.
14:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 15:03:51 asciilifeform: billymg: asciilifeform's /etc/portage/package.mask/systemd , for reference.
14:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 15:04:35 asciilifeform: sys-auth/polkit
14:41 asciilifeform PeterL: bob's l1 peers will see 'bob'; his l2+ will see two suffixed bobs as soon as they first collide and henceforth
14:42 asciilifeform his l1 will address him as 'bob', which may be annoying to l2+ but which bob is addressed will usually be clear from log context from either pov.
14:44 PeterL but say I want to peer with both bobs, how is that handled?
14:45 asciilifeform AKA
14:47 asciilifeform ultimately if pestnets merge, someone will have to be encouraged to renick.
14:47 asciilifeform otherwise cacophony.
14:47 PeterL but what I am looking for is a way to renick without having to rebuild your whole peer network
14:48 asciilifeform AKA.
14:52 asciilifeform 'hey peerz, starting tuesday i'ma call meself 'bobert', plox to AKA bob bobert' pgpsigned, bob
14:53 asciilifeform i.e. doesn't req. rekeying w/ peers
14:54 * asciilifeform bbl
14:55 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076888 << ahh ok
14:55 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-27 13:40:08 PeterL: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076797 << it's grabbing the name of the blog from the RSS feed, not the author
14:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 20:19:51 whaack: PeterL: Small nit, maybe scoopbot should say "New article by _" instead of "New post on _"
14:56 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076798 << have you found that this is necessary in the field? it does not rng, haven't had any problems yet
14:56 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-27 01:35:38 asciilifeform: whaack: btw your arithmetic-puzzler doesn't seem to rng
14:57 asciilifeform whaack: ithink 1 of asciilifeform comments is stuck in yer spam queue
15:00 whaack asciilifeform: it was, ty.
15:00 whaack not sure how you managed to lose auto-approve though, probably cuz of links
15:07 scoopbot New article on btcinfo: Adventures in pest testnet - connecting an Android device
15:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076927 << admittedly not tried w/out rng
15:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 09:56:10 whaack: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076798 << have you found that this is necessary in the field? it does not rng, haven't had any problems yet
15:24 PeterL whaack: does ^ this wording for scoopbot look better?
15:33 shinohai tyvm PeterL
15:45 PeterL I was thinking of making it "New article posted on ___:", but I thought this was a little cleaner?
15:50 shinohai yeah the latter is superfluous methinks
~ 28 minutes ~
16:19 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-27#1076891 << the 1 aspect did not discuss, but worth mentioning, is that 'evil' l1 peers can of course mutate yer messages. but this imho is obv. and such a betrayal will not stay seekrit for long.
16:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 09:31:57 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076863 << afaik listed all the combos in thrd. lemme know if missed any.
16:26 whaack PeterL: LGTM
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
17:28 whaack anyone know of a heathen block explorer that contains an updated list of orphan blocks it sees?
17:29 whaack !e view-height
17:29 trbexplorer block_height: 720626
17:29 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 2
17:42 shinohai https://bitcoinchain.com/block_explorer/orphaned
17:43 shinohai looks old though
~ 44 minutes ~
18:27 asciilifeform thimbronion, jonsykkel : asciilifeform had a thought : possibly the inclusion of 'speaker' field to start with was a mistake. instead, internally station oughta distinguish l2+ msgs by ~chain~, internally, and 'speaker' instead would be a 'call me x' ~broadcast message type~.
18:29 asciilifeform would solve e.g. this, supposing one were willing to have the machine substitute a chain id munge in place of the speaker yer addressing, and parse it back out on the receiving end
18:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-27 02:40:39 jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076775 << if net1 sees guy1 as "speaker" and guy2 as "speaker-2", and net2 sees guy1 as "speaker-2" and guy2 as "speaker" - how to address these ppl in messages? "hey speaker-2 wats up" << will appear to diff subnets that u are addressing diff guys
18:30 asciilifeform e.g. instead of the 32 bytes of 'speaker', you have the selfchain of the msg yer addressing (or a zero, if n/a)
18:31 asciilifeform possibly not worth the bother, come to think of it. but a possible variant.
18:31 asciilifeform might yield simpler phork-to/from-suffixed-speaker designation logic, tho.
18:33 asciilifeform e.g. 1 advantage would be not having to rewalk log to mark bogosity (or its opposite)
18:34 asciilifeform i.e. all chains recorded as they are, but what to do w/ a 'call me x' would depend on the station's pov re the offered handle. (if corresponds to l1 peer -- accept uncritically; if l2+ -- '1st come, 1st serve')
18:36 asciilifeform transmitting 'speaker' in erry msg is a rather massive waste imho, given that they're already selfchained and you can walk back
18:36 asciilifeform and makes for all kindsa otherwise unnecessary moving parts in the protocol
18:38 * asciilifeform had orthogonal but also pertinent thought: 'no orphan rebroadcast', i.e. if you gimme a msg, i haven't the prev. for it, i 'getdata', and you dun answr within interval -- yours goes to devnull
18:39 asciilifeform and ~recursively~ so.
18:39 asciilifeform ^ concerns strictly broadcasts, that is
18:41 asciilifeform imposing the 'i am...' msg might have anuther win -- the receiver could ~reply~ to it with e.g. 'yes you can be bob on my pestnet' or alternatively 'i've a bob already'.
18:42 asciilifeform ( i.e. 'i've a chain that is already bobbed' )
18:43 * asciilifeform bbl
18:50 asciilifeform btw if the 32bytes formerly 'speaker' instead made to point to one's 'birth' (i.e. 1st 'i am' broadcast), makes rather simple to determine who was 1st claimant of $handle on given pestnet.
18:50 asciilifeform (point to i.e. selfchainwise)
18:56 asciilifeform ... also makes for simple handle switchouts ('i was bob (or possibly bob-N to you) $chain to prev.iam, nao am bobart'
18:58 asciilifeform then you can switch handles while maintaining chain continuity (if you want to) from l2+'s pov.
~ 27 minutes ~
19:26 whaack shinohai: i linked that website before, the server ran out of storage and is no longer updating
19:26 shinohai :(
19:27 whaack shinohai: but it looks like orphans are spaced out to about 1 per month
19:28 whaack s/orphan/childless for this whole thread
19:29 whaack childless isn't even the right term, unless the fork is only 1 chain long
19:29 whaack maybe s/orphan/extinct
19:30 whaack unless the fork is only 1 block* long
19:30 shinohai extinct *does* have a nice ring to it
19:38 whaack jfw used the term loser block, works as well
19:49 signpost repudiable could be used for blocks which have no children and have a competitor with no children, and repudiated when they are left behind.
19:49 signpost just throwing that out there, loser's pretty descriptive too for latter.
19:53 whaack in any case, all better than orphan
19:53 asciilifeform see also tho.
19:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-21 13:13:24 asciilifeform: whaack: more immediately, cuz we haven't any notion what the longest possible reorg is
19:54 asciilifeform fwiw shitoshi also had nfi what longest practical reorg could be. hence wai stored ~all~ recv'd blox 4evah
19:55 asciilifeform (whether ~could~ reorg over9000 blox, in the actual proggy as it stands, no one knows. but they sit there, fossilized, in the db.)
19:57 whaack asciilifeform: given our emperical evidence so far i think it's fair to call loser/repudiated blocks extinct blocks, and should we learn that in practice losers can be revived, then that will be a resurrection
19:59 asciilifeform whaack: aha. but important to remember that it's an empirical result.
19:59 asciilifeform ( the well-known tradition is 'declared dead after 6' but there's no fundamental physical basis for it )
20:00 asciilifeform and iirc whaack turned up >6 long reorgs in early history.
20:07 whaack asciilifeform: i mentioned that i remember a >6 long reorg but not something i verified for myself in any wya
20:07 whaack way
← 2022-01-26 | 2022-01-28 →