Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-01-25 | 2022-01-27 →
00:00 bonechewer And in ru, St. Petersburg also requires vaxpass everywhere
00:01 asciilifeform in ru comical lulz, what w/ folx standing in queues in crowded train stations to get 'covid pass' etc
00:03 bonechewer That's because, in best lizard fashion, it is about societal control, not any sort of health precaution
00:03 asciilifeform noshit.jpg
00:03 bonechewer The distinction between "muppet" and "puppet" is null, at least to me
00:04 asciilifeform 'muppet' bites the hand.
00:04 * bonechewer not encountered that usage before
00:05 asciilifeform bonechewer: covidiocy has 0 to do w/ 'health', rather is about the great theft.
00:05 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-13 15:39:56 asciilifeform: punkman: small change compared to the great theft .
00:05 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 15:17:20 asciilifeform: seems like current (i.e. post- Great Theft) situation is a return to the ancient norm, as intended by the lizards, where 'you work a day, and what do you get? anuther day older and deeper in debt'(tm)(r)
00:05 asciilifeform ( and see also. )
00:06 dulapbot Logged on 2021-10-31 23:13:21 asciilifeform: signpost: in '19 was already clear imho 'they need a worldwar' but also clear that can't afford actual one. so instead organized fictional one
00:07 asciilifeform for the stage prop, used the weakest sauce avail. from the old biowar labs
00:08 * bonechewer not convinced they won't run an actual war
00:08 asciilifeform moar than sufficed for the marks.
00:08 bonechewer A++ way of explaining the inevitable currency devaluation
00:09 asciilifeform bonechewer: actual wars eschewed by lizards, because unpredictable.
00:09 dulapbot Logged on 2020-11-02 15:33:53 asciilifeform: all the current slave empires have exactly 1 strategic objective : 'business-as-usual'. ad infinitum.
00:09 bonechewer currency has much farther to fall, need new and better official justifications
00:09 asciilifeform ( in actual war, yer palace might get levelled, and yacht -- sunk )
00:10 bonechewer actual wars happen in grubby places far from lizards (Libya, Syria, Iraq) but are no less real
00:10 asciilifeform and cocaine supply tighter
00:10 asciilifeform bonechewer: speaking of Actual War, i.e. 'world'
00:10 asciilifeform not 3rd world pissing contests
00:11 asciilifeform ( the latter largely set up to churn reich inventory and cull surplus males in goatfuckistans )
00:12 bonechewer yes, 3rd world pissing contests are orchestrated by lizards to grow access to cheap labor pool, justify importing "refugees", and fund bonuses that will fund some nice kitchen and bathroom renovations in a few Northern Virginia suburbs
00:13 * bonechewer nontheless has queasy feeling that lizard hate for US plebes will get even more active
00:13 asciilifeform bonechewer: also to prevent appearance of new empires on the map.
00:13 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-02-01 asciilifeform: these are the folx for whom e.g. tyre fire of libya is a 'success' ( ghaddafi dead? check. no unified arabistan ? check. etc )
00:13 bonechewer because what's to turn it around?
00:14 bonechewer Gadhafi not only dead, but nobody else tempted to demand gold in exchange for their oil
00:14 asciilifeform bonechewer: it's a predator-prey relationship. one doesn't 'hate' one's food
00:14 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-15 12:21:23 asciilifeform: the reason why inflation is observable in 'cartoon colours' in sad orcistans, e.g. argentina, is that in such shitholes, the elite's ~only asset is the printing press. crowned muppet ~will~ try to keep palace and private jet etc, even if has to pay for it 100% by printing peso.
00:14 asciilifeform bonechewer: correct
00:16 bonechewer asciilifeform: lizards per se may not hate amerikaners but a lot of their minions sure do
00:17 bonechewer Nearly as much as Nuland, Blinken, & co. hate Russians. Deep-seated ancestral hatred.
00:19 asciilifeform bonechewer: there's an interesting psychological trick that asciilifeform is ill-qualified to comment on, where 'desk flyer' in blue hat is conditioned to hate trucker in red hat, powered by likely his dread of having to do honest work w/ own hands, or his red-hatted grandfather's belt buckle in his arse, etc
00:20 asciilifeform fact is, w/ exception of lizards , ~erryone in usa is no moar than 3 gens 'outta the coal mine'
00:20 asciilifeform or the cotton plantation etc
00:20 asciilifeform the hatred is -- engineered -- self-hatred.
00:23 asciilifeform lizards in usa 'solved' the 'unions problem' by getting rid of labour, creating caste of lumpens on left side of bell curve and caste of paper shufflers on right side, with the sleight-of-hand moar than sufficing to ramp down expectations of life for all of'em
00:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-04-22 14:01:38 asciilifeform: this is a '50s-era decision, btw. originally made, in usa, to destroy the unions.
00:23 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-12 16:01:23 asciilifeform: there is a large, brick (quite rarity in usa) house near where asciilifeform lives. owner -- died, no immediate heirs, somehow ended up in bureaucratic limbo, uninhabited, decaying lawn machinery, etc. for many yrs, i assumed it had belonged to a successful businessman, or high official. then found out from elderly townsfolks -- a schoolteacher had lived there.
00:24 bonechewer hmm, your contention reminds me of old-school sovok class-based analysis
00:24 asciilifeform cuz it was factual.
00:24 bonechewer by which broke-ass blue plebe should make common cause with broke-ass red plebe
00:24 bonechewer which is logical, don't get me wrong
00:24 asciilifeform both colours of plebe have 1 actual enemy.
00:25 bonechewer economically, sure
00:25 asciilifeform wasn't so long ago that they were even issued the coloured hats.
00:25 bonechewer but same goes for shia plebe and sunni plebe in iraq
00:25 asciilifeform well those were issued hats 1000+y ago
00:25 bonechewer or catholic plebe vs. protestant plebe in northern ireland
00:25 asciilifeform rather diff. case
00:25 * bonechewer disagrees
00:26 bonechewer blue and red plebes belong to different religions, de facto
00:26 asciilifeform rather young religions tho.
00:26 bonechewer blue plebes follow the Woke, Globohomo cult
00:27 bonechewer red plebes some post-Reagan remnant of pro-US flag waving
00:27 bonechewer Whatever nominal Christianity they may also profess (fewer and fewer of them) hardly enteres into it
00:27 bonechewer *enters
00:27 bonechewer indeed, rather young religions.
00:28 bonechewer whether this was engineered by the lizards, or happened naturally, I couldn't say
00:29 * asciilifeform had a family friend in deep dod contract payola dough, who liked to say 'whether the catholics win the election, or the lesbians, i'ma still get paid just the same'
00:29 bonechewer Although the evidence that lizards engineered feminism to get more women into the workforce and monetize child care is pretty good imho
00:30 asciilifeform bonechewer: orig. was to double the clerk supply and put wages through the floor. worked a++
00:30 * bonechewer agrees re: feminism
00:30 asciilifeform (at one time a bank clerk's wage sufficed to feed a family)
00:31 bonechewer family friend also not wrong, but doesn't change the fact that antifa plebes hate MAGA plebes enough to shoot them down in the street
00:31 asciilifeform to date moar shouting than shooting
00:31 bonechewer yet lizard regime funds and protects only antifa
00:32 bonechewer shooting is nonzero
00:33 asciilifeform is funny, how erry time they need to agitate for yr+, bus in over9000 morons of both hat colours into some shithole, and spend 1e8$ on provocateurs, to get 1-2 corpses
00:33 asciilifeform (which then can be paraded on tv for yrs)
00:34 asciilifeform rather low roi.
00:35 bonechewer number of corpses grew steadily in 1970s, likely to do so again
00:35 asciilifeform see also
00:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-02 14:33:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034974 << tried to have reichstag fire, but no one could find a match that'd light..?
00:36 asciilifeform bonechewer: in '70s mostly slum dwellers agitated into torching own slums (since became a kind of tradition in usa)
00:36 asciilifeform ( see also )
00:36 dulapbot Logged on 2019-12-02 02:26:44 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: disappointing, but unsurprising. in usa also riots ~always like that -- the designated 'kindling' (i.e. slums) burn, and (almost...) never the skyscrapers.
00:37 asciilifeform observe how it's never a 1e7$ mansion that's torched, and never lockheed hq, nor a yacht, nor harvard, etc
00:37 bonechewer separately upstack re: wrist pain, I wanted to reiterate that for pain in the little finger and ring finger, the Kinesis Advantage keyboard is the way to go
00:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-10-13 11:44:19 bonechewer: I saw an orthopedist and he recommended two things, which I followed:
00:38 bonechewer Plus 50 mg of Vitamin B6 per day
00:38 asciilifeform bonechewer: not yet encountered anyone cured by keyboard rec (incl. asciilifeform's)
00:38 bonechewer That combination has been a silver bullet for me and one former co-worker
00:38 bonechewer But again, only for pain caused by squishing the nerve on the little-finger side of the wrist
00:39 asciilifeform 'emacs pinky'
00:39 bonechewer Precisely emacs pinky
00:39 asciilifeform ( oblig naggum )
00:39 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-09-22 asciilifeform: switching caps lock and ctrl << 'Emacs actually comes with a builting Emacs Aptitude Test. Do you remap your keyboard or the Emacs keybindings before the chords and sequences it comes with by default have wreaked havoc with your hands? If you do not do anything to make Emacs more convenient for yourself, you may not have the prerequisite aptitude to use it productive.' (naggum, who else. http://www.xach.com/na
00:39 * bonechewer developed after a few years of heavy emacs use at work
00:40 bonechewer Since not everything is emacs, the Kinesis Advantage (or similarly shaped Kinesis Classic) is exactly what's needed
00:40 bonechewer This puts backspace and control on thumbs
00:41 * asciilifeform still suspects that 'gold standard' prevention & cure of wrist rot is simply not hammering in MB of txt / d
00:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 15:41:38 asciilifeform: has suffered symptoms resembling early stages of wrist rot in the past, tho, when actually had to key > coupla kB / d
00:41 bonechewer That may be, but I am paid much better to hammer in MB of text than I would be to hammer in nails
00:42 bonechewer And that keyboard plus the B6 has let me do so for 2+ decades, when thought would have to quit after a couple years
00:42 asciilifeform (and also perhaps not smashing yer hand on rock-hard incompressible horror all day long)
00:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-10-12 21:26:03 asciilifeform: yer fingers need tactile feedback to give the muscle power somewhere to go; as well as to come to a comfortable stop before smashing into immovable object (keyboard bottom, desk)
00:42 bonechewer Yes, Kinesis is a mechanical kbd, but just using a conventional mechanical kbd was not enough to prevent pain for me
00:43 asciilifeform asciilifeform's current kbd for instance has 10mm of spring travel.
00:43 bonechewer As to specifics: the "KB500" models should be avoided; they have a bug and do no function with modern USB controllers
00:43 * asciilifeform not used subj, cannot comment
00:44 thimbronion bonechewer: re vitamin B6, recently found a butcher that gets liver in weekly.
00:44 * asciilifeform 's kbd
00:44 dulapbot Logged on 2020-06-18 17:04:45 asciilifeform: from above, pic of the particular item i use .
00:44 bonechewer Current model is the "KB600", works A++. Old PS/2 versions ("Kinesis Classic") also fine.
00:44 * bonechewer believes firmly enough to make the following offer:
00:45 bonechewer If one of you guys on this channel tries the Kinesis + B6 for pain that numbs the little finger and ring finger and it does not work, I will purchase it from you at the list price
00:46 asciilifeform iirc whaack had sumthing like this
00:46 bonechewer (because they are spendy
00:46 asciilifeform eh that aint 'spendy'
00:46 asciilifeform 'model f' for instance cost, wat, 2k$ in ~1980~ $
00:47 asciilifeform i.e. like 'harley'
00:47 * bonechewer is impecunious enough to not part with $319 lightly
00:47 * asciilifeform 's cost him very little to purchase but weeks of time spent in restoration
00:49 asciilifeform in particular, soldering in wong's controller was a bitch (ribbon cable)
00:50 asciilifeform not to mention the sanding, stripping, painting, ultrasonic baths for the mechanicals
00:50 asciilifeform was worth it imho tho
00:50 bonechewer Relevance to Kinesis is that to make the KB500s usable, have to crack them open and attach the appropriate cable to make it a PS/2 kbd rather than USB
00:51 asciilifeform thing is indestructible short of running a train over it
00:51 asciilifeform (and impervious to dust, liquids -- contactless electrostatic switches)
00:51 asciilifeform ( this re 'ibm model f' )
00:51 * bonechewer shares some of that experience: at one work location, had to press his original 1997 Kinesis Classic into service after removing over a decade of grime
00:52 asciilifeform subj for ref.
00:52 asciilifeform err, subj
00:52 * bonechewer thinks I used similar item 1991-1992 on horribly slow IBM AIX box of the time, but can't be sure of the details
00:53 asciilifeform most likely was the 'model m'
00:53 asciilifeform 'f' uncommon
00:54 asciilifeform ( in 'm', springs but over a conventional rubber dome matrix internally. and annoyingly riveted down, difficult to clean 100% )
00:54 asciilifeform the key caps are compat. tho
00:55 * asciilifeform pulled caps from buncha 'm'-s to terraform the 'f' into a pclike layout instead of the oddball dumb terminal thing
00:55 bonechewer The machine was the IBM RT PC, slow even by the standards of the time, but what the keyboard may have been I defer to asciilifeform
00:56 * asciilifeform not encountered subj, cannot comment in depth
00:58 bonechewer In any case, I logged on purely to once more extol the Kinesis like the fanatic that I am
00:58 bonechewer But ended up having pleasant conversation with asciilifeform, for which I am grateful
00:58 asciilifeform a++
00:58 bonechewer Must leave the terminal now; have a good evening!
00:58 asciilifeform nighty, bonechewer
~ 3 hours 46 minutes ~
04:45 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075834 << ah
04:45 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075838 << ok, so if blue(b) speaks after green has stored yellow as designated blue relayer, it will show up as "blue-fake1" or watever in greens console? (even tho direct peer) while messages from blue(a) will show up as just "blue".
04:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 09:06:12 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: asciilifeform reverted the 4.3.1 step8 thing before went to bed
04:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 10:42:25 asciilifeform: if they do not, and, say, blue(a) fires, all three (yellow, red, green) will store 'yellow' as designated relayer for 'troo' 'a', and worx
04:45 jonsykkel wat then happens if blue(a) unpeers yellow and peers with red instead? and starts talking
04:45 jonsykkel also in original case entire net will agree on whos real blue guy. wat if 2 nets with no collisions yet merge where net1 agrees that blue(a) is real guy and net2 agrees on blue(b)?
~ 8 hours 34 minutes ~
13:20 whaack !e view-height
13:20 trbexplorer block_height: 720476
13:20 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 15
~ 1 hours 43 minutes ~
15:03 whaack still no reorgs afaik
15:05 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076608 << msgs from direct peers, from receiver's pov, always authentic (and fork which contradicts'em -- bogus)
15:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 23:45:38 jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075838 << ok, so if blue(b) speaks after green has stored yellow as designated blue relayer, it will show up as "blue-fake1" or watever in greens console? (even tho direct peer) while messages from blue(a) will show up as just "blue".
15:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076610 << see above
15:06 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 23:45:43 jonsykkel: wat then happens if blue(a) unpeers yellow and peers with red instead? and starts talking
15:07 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076611 << on ea. of the merged nets, stations would see 'their' blue as the authentic one.
15:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 23:45:46 jonsykkel: also in original case entire net will agree on whos real blue guy. wat if 2 nets with no collisions yet merge where net1 agrees that blue(a) is real guy and net2 agrees on blue(b)?
15:08 asciilifeform ('their' being the 1 which had spoken on that net 1st.)
15:09 asciilifeform nao what's not clear to asciilifeform is whether the proposed rule actually achieves this.
15:10 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076616 << green will at first store yellow as designated relayer for blue, but then if his direct peer blue talks then that is new genuine blue?
15:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 10:05:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076608 << msgs from direct peers, from receiver's pov, always authentic (and fork which contradicts'em -- bogus)
15:10 asciilifeform jonsykkel: correct
15:11 jonsykkel (from greens perspective)
15:11 jonsykkel i see
15:14 jonsykkel so idea is that entire net doesnt necessarily agree on who owns x handle, just that an individual pestron is able to auto resolve l2+ forks?
15:15 asciilifeform correct. i.e. the scheme doesn't actually satisfy asciilifeform's orig. condition .
15:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-23 23:56:22 asciilifeform: applies (unless asciilifeform miscalculates) recursively, to enforce '1st user owns the handle' across the pestnet.
15:15 jonsykkel aight
15:17 asciilifeform nor even the weakened variant of same
15:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 12:10:30 asciilifeform: the fundamental unsolved problem atm is in fact ~distinguishing~ multiple l2+ stations speaking w/ same handle.
15:18 jonsykkel cant this be done using teh chains?
15:18 asciilifeform this -- would, but can't think of any way to do it.
15:18 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 15:06:55 asciilifeform: if one could fit e.g. a lamport sig in there, there'd be no headache.
15:19 asciilifeform jonsykkel: a fundamental problem w/ the chains is that there's no fork until the original speaks up and skips the bogus.
15:19 asciilifeform (and that it may well be the bogus who constructs his msg to skip the original's)
15:21 asciilifeform the ideal unobtainium would be, as described in linked thrd, if erry msg in fact contained a pubkey with which its successor must be signed. but there aint a pubkey cryptosystem that would work here, what with keys & sigs having to fit in ~32bytes, and, most importantly, operate at cpu expense comparable to that of a coupla hashes
15:23 jonsykkel so this is strictly a problem in case of malicious variant of fork
15:23 jonsykkel (2 diff continuations of same chain)
15:23 jonsykkel and not 2 parallel chains of ppl that just happened to use same handle
15:24 asciilifeform aha
15:24 jonsykkel i feel like shud be terms to distinguish these
15:24 jonsykkel i see i see
15:24 asciilifeform the other, orthogonal problem, is that there's no way to distinguish the speakers if they're l3+
15:24 asciilifeform err, l2+
15:24 asciilifeform and relayed by same peer
15:25 asciilifeform can distinguish by chains, if and only if there's actually a fork
15:32 asciilifeform if it weren't for the fact that impostor can extend existing chain, one could simply declare 'well behaved station won't relay fork msgs'. but of course he can extend it, and so the chain would be entirely worthless info, as the orig. could not then 'hey, that wasn't me'
15:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 12:20:19 thimbronion: So the only person who could identify a counterfeit station would be the original station - because, hey - that wasn't me!
15:36 jonsykkel so wat u realy need is non-onetime sig on evry msg
15:37 asciilifeform can be 1time, but gotta be unforgeable by 3rd party
15:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 15:21:04 asciilifeform: hears an l3 msg before you do, and forges it.
15:37 asciilifeform i.e. lamport, but somehow fitting in 32bytes.
15:39 * asciilifeform considered variants where Speaker is 64bytes, with only the bottom 32 representing displayed handle, and the top 32 -- pointing to his 1st msg. but not come up with a variant which actually wins -- for one thing, multiple parties can still trivially extend that chain
15:39 jonsykkel gotta read up on lamport
15:40 asciilifeform (for anuther, msgs aint forward-linked, so one couldn't getdata ~forward~ from the 'birth' msg)
15:40 asciilifeform jonsykkel: asciilifeform's piece re subj. prolly not worth the time, tho, lamport's scheme is unusable here
15:41 asciilifeform it needs 2 hashes in the public key for erry ~bit~ of the material to be signed, and 1 equivalently massive string in the signature for erry such bit
15:43 asciilifeform the earlier thrd, for reference.
15:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:21 asciilifeform: let's repost:
15:44 asciilifeform ^ scheme where in fact dr.evil cannot extend yer chain while you're out at sea. but he can do so ~while you're transmitting~ if yer msgs transit his station, which is equally annoying
15:45 * asciilifeform will bbl
15:52 jonsykkel right
15:54 jonsykkel intresting problem
~ 19 minutes ~
16:13 asciilifeform thinking about the linked thread further : under that scheme, dr.evil is in fact forced to fork your chain if he wants to impersonate you.
16:14 asciilifeform ( i.e. yes, he has all of your 'A', with the exception of that of the ~last~ msg you sent. so can't forge a successor to ~that~ one, meaning that he gotta withhold it
16:14 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:42 asciilifeform: A -- is the S from that station's prev. message .
16:15 asciilifeform )
16:15 asciilifeform but if he aint a bottleneck b/w you and yer l3+ -- the yer genuine last msg. will reach yer l3+.
16:16 jonsykkel but he can make single message fork
16:16 asciilifeform which can then accept the longest chain (i.e. yours).
16:16 asciilifeform jonsykkel: right, but it aint of your ~last~ transmitted msg
16:16 jonsykkel i mean single message that apparently is not fork
16:16 asciilifeform cuz he dun know the 'A' for your last msg.
16:17 asciilifeform ergo, l3+ stations who witness your last msg, will detect the forgery.
16:17 asciilifeform (immediately)
16:17 * asciilifeform brb
16:17 jonsykkel hm
16:19 jonsykkel indeed, assuming last msg arrives. which only doesnt happen if drevil only link
16:23 shinohai for lulz i built smalpest for armv7 jonsykkel .... runs a++
16:25 jonsykkel cool stuf, soon can have pestron on shitdroid fone!
16:26 shinohai thats what i tried it on, some chinesium phone the girls had.
16:26 jonsykkel aha
16:27 * shinohai loves that static c makes it a snap to xfer this to any device .....
16:29 shinohai blatta took a bit of of fiddling with python2.7 in termux, but station is running from phone atm
16:29 jonsykkel would xpect to compile most anywhere, exeption being where the coupel of posixs stuffs dont exist
16:29 jonsykkel thats cool
16:32 shinohai Death drones with pest stations inside, wen ?
16:32 whaack shinohai: what is termux?
16:32 jonsykkel waiting for pest on iot fridge
16:33 shinohai whaack: it's a terminal emulator for android.
16:35 * asciilifeform back
16:35 shinohai whaack: http://btc.info.gf/uploads/termux.png
16:37 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076682 << the next thing is to figure out how oughta behave if chain break.
16:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 11:19:35 jonsykkel: indeed, assuming last msg arrives. which only doesnt happen if drevil only link
16:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076685 << pest per se, or simply irctron plugged into same ?
16:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 11:27:03 shinohai: thats what i tried it on, some chinesium phone the girls had.
16:44 shinohai asciilifeform: is running blatta (seen in top) and can connect to irc using weechat or raw cmds via nc
16:44 asciilifeform a
16:44 * asciilifeform doesn't see wai to put station on the proverbial toaster, but nuffin wrong w/ it for so long as you understand that it's effectively a winblows box, i.e. randos may have access to the keyz
16:45 asciilifeform ... for that matter, somebody somewhere will eventually insist on running his station from winblows. can't stop him, but it'll be 'its own punishment'
16:46 shinohai kind of beauty of it tho, if ya want it built into samovar, can haz.
16:46 asciilifeform wainot
16:46 asciilifeform if yer samovar has a nic and a pentium, can.
16:47 jonsykkel would never consider anything less than quadcore samovar
16:47 * shinohai has an antique samovar now named Mircea Potpescu for this purpose ....
16:48 asciilifeform lol
16:48 asciilifeform shinohai: will be interesting to try w/ that pnoje once nat drilling actually implemented
16:49 asciilifeform ( as asciilifeform understands, currently you'll only have working peerings in own lan, on that thing )
16:49 shinohai I think so too. I like the idea of using it as an "offensive" device, take it places, see what the pest station picks up ....
16:49 asciilifeform in what sense 'picks up' ?
16:50 asciilifeform w/out nat drilling, will simply sit there
16:50 asciilifeform ( or does yer telco actually give out usable external ip ? )
16:52 shinohai sure, its not ready for doing anything useful yet
16:52 * shinohai turns on camera while pet #1 is in shower, connect to NaughtyPest for only 0.0025 BTC!
16:53 asciilifeform shinohai: w/ current blatta, theoretically you'll be able to peer with folx who aint nat'd even from that pnoje
16:53 asciilifeform worth a test
16:54 shinohai ^ thx, will test this
16:54 jonsykkel tried this from my shity gsm conection once without sucess but cant remember exact results of experiment
16:55 asciilifeform w/ a 0xfa blatta, ~2~ pnojes in principle will peer if both already sitting on given pestnet
16:55 shinohai I have not tries via the 4/5G connection, it only has wifi :/
16:56 asciilifeform also worth to test w/ conventional box hanging off wifi of 'tethered' pnoje. double-nat.
16:56 asciilifeform theoretically still oughta work w/ current blatta and a nat-less peer
16:59 asciilifeform to round off upstack thread -- dr.evil not only must fork, if he wants to forge, but must withhold all subsequent msgs from the original, or even folx who hear the victim only through him will discover the boojum
16:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 11:19:35 jonsykkel: indeed, assuming last msg arrives. which only doesnt happen if drevil only link
17:00 asciilifeform ... so imho, that scheme still probably best approach so far.
17:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:28 asciilifeform: so, for the sake of argument: suppose that (at the expense of payload) a message gets 2 new h256 fields : call'em Q and A ;
17:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:35 asciilifeform: Q is H(message, incl. A; and a 32-byte turd, S, not included in the msg.)
17:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:42 asciilifeform: A -- is the S from that station's prev. message .
17:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 15:04:00 asciilifeform: ... to wrap up upstack: if H(M_prev + A_current) != Q_prev : you have a bogon.
17:04 asciilifeform ... then, instead of alarming on forks per se, station alarms on any msg w/ given $speaker which aint the tip of the longest known chain for that $speaker.
17:08 asciilifeform if you ~have~ (or were able to getdata) the msg.prev of a given msg, by selfchain, and H(msg.prev + msg.A) != msg.prev.Q -- you simply throw out msg.
17:11 asciilifeform if you ~don't~ have it (and getdata for it dun succeed within interval 'Tw', you display e.g. '?asciilifeform: i eat bugs!' instead of 'asciilifeform: i eat bugs!'
17:13 asciilifeform now the tricky case if if you have what appears to be the contig. chain, but it turns out that you were being duped by dr.evil, and nao you've finally received the tip of the ~oldest~ (what you actually want, rather than 'longest') chain.
17:15 asciilifeform seems that the logical thing to do, there, would be to walk the 'orphaned' (dr.evil's bogus) chain, and display e.g. 'bogus: <time>:<asciilifeform>:i eat bugs!' etc. for each msg. in the discarded chain
17:15 asciilifeform (in a fyootoor non-irctronic client, could simply mark'em up in the scrollback log)
17:16 asciilifeform with the above logic, operators no longer need to concern selves w/ forks and their resolution, near as asciilifeform can tell
17:17 asciilifeform to complete the algo, if you had the <?..nick..> thing going , and then finally received the getdata response which fills the chain gap, can go back similarly to the 'bogon list' above, and display ea. of the 'unorphaned' msgs w/out the ? mark.
17:18 asciilifeform ^ thimbronion jonsykkel et al ^
17:19 asciilifeform the 1 down side, afaik (aside from biting off a further 64bytes from payload) -- is that if you somehow lose yer last 'A', and still want l2+ stations to hear you, will have to change yer handle.
17:20 asciilifeform this however is inevitable. 'don't lose it.'
17:22 asciilifeform and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes
17:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 11:59:18 asciilifeform: to round off upstack thread -- dr.evil not only must fork, if he wants to forge, but must withhold all subsequent msgs from the original, or even folx who hear the victim only through him will discover the boojum
17:24 * asciilifeform suspects that this is the closest we're gonna get to a general solution, unless somebody somehow comes up with the unobtainium from earlier thrd.
17:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 10:38:05 asciilifeform: i.e. lamport, but somehow fitting in 32bytes.
17:26 asciilifeform ftr all of the above to apply strictly to hearsays.
17:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 10:05:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076608 << msgs from direct peers, from receiver's pov, always authentic (and fork which contradicts'em -- bogus)
17:26 asciilifeform i.e. 'your' (l1) bozo is still 'your' bozo even if he loses his 'A'.
17:27 asciilifeform (but his l2+ would tune him out)
17:29 * asciilifeform puts down microphone, will wait for q's/comments before attempting to stuff this in 0xfa
17:29 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076745 << *willing to bet
17:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes
~ 6 hours 12 minutes ~
23:42 thimbronion asciilifeform: I'm attempting to grok - will see if I can formulate any questions
23:42 asciilifeform thimbronion: ty, a++
23:42 asciilifeform thimbronion: dun hesitate to ask to elaborate.
23:48 asciilifeform thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg.
23:49 asciilifeform if yer station is in a state of chain breakage (i.e. a getdata failed) and you can't fetch that prev msg for $speaker, you display him as e.g. 'asciilifeform-?: ...'
23:49 asciilifeform (supposing asciilifeform is not in yer l1)
23:51 asciilifeform if you ~have~ that prev.msg but you saw a fork (i.e. branching off selfchain wise from not-the-last msg w/ that speaker; or 'unlock' didn't match the prev. msg's lock) you display e.g. 'asciilifeform-2-1234: ...' where '2' is # of chain (if this is e.g. 2nd) and 1234 is the nth msg on that chain
23:52 asciilifeform no need to try to 'resolve' forks, they're all nao distinguishable
23:53 asciilifeform i.e. when you get l2+ hearsay which continues (properly, incl. 'unlock's) ~oldest~ chain, you see 'asciilifeform: ...'
23:53 asciilifeform ^ all of above applies strictly to hearsays.
23:54 asciilifeform if yer log has no breaks, you have selfchains going back to 'birth' for yer l2+ speakers, and most recent 'lock' for each (i.e. in the last msg received w/ that $speaker)
23:55 asciilifeform ( if not obv. here -- selfchain covers all fields, incl. 'unlock' , of prev. msg )
23:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 18:48:29 asciilifeform: thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg.
23:57 asciilifeform if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076745][dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff'
23:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes
23:57 asciilifeform grr
23:57 asciilifeform if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff'
23:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes
23:58 asciilifeform thimbronion et al : lemme know if makes 100% sense.
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