00:00 |
bonechewer |
And in ru, St. Petersburg also requires vaxpass everywhere |
00:01 |
asciilifeform |
in ru comical lulz, what w/ folx standing in queues in crowded train stations to get 'covid pass' etc |
00:03 |
bonechewer |
That's because, in best lizard fashion, it is about societal control, not any sort of health precaution |
00:03 |
asciilifeform |
noshit.jpg |
00:03 |
bonechewer |
The distinction between "muppet" and "puppet" is null, at least to me |
00:04 |
asciilifeform |
'muppet' bites the hand. |
00:04 |
* |
bonechewer not encountered that usage before |
00:05 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: covidiocy has 0 to do w/ 'health', rather is about the great theft. |
00:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-13 15:39:56 asciilifeform: punkman: small change compared to the great theft . |
00:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-11-17 15:17:20 asciilifeform: seems like current (i.e. post- Great Theft) situation is a return to the ancient norm, as intended by the lizards, where 'you work a day, and what do you get? anuther day older and deeper in debt'(tm)(r) |
00:05 |
asciilifeform |
( and see also. ) |
00:06 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-10-31 23:13:21 asciilifeform: signpost: in '19 was already clear imho 'they need a worldwar' but also clear that can't afford actual one. so instead organized fictional one |
00:07 |
asciilifeform |
for the stage prop, used the weakest sauce avail. from the old biowar labs |
00:08 |
* |
bonechewer not convinced they won't run an actual war |
00:08 |
asciilifeform |
moar than sufficed for the marks. |
00:08 |
bonechewer |
A++ way of explaining the inevitable currency devaluation |
00:09 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: actual wars eschewed by lizards, because unpredictable. |
00:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-11-02 15:33:53 asciilifeform: all the current slave empires have exactly 1 strategic objective : 'business-as-usual'. ad infinitum. |
00:09 |
bonechewer |
currency has much farther to fall, need new and better official justifications |
00:09 |
asciilifeform |
( in actual war, yer palace might get levelled, and yacht -- sunk ) |
00:10 |
bonechewer |
actual wars happen in grubby places far from lizards (Libya, Syria, Iraq) but are no less real |
00:10 |
asciilifeform |
and cocaine supply tighter |
00:10 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: speaking of Actual War, i.e. 'world' |
00:10 |
asciilifeform |
not 3rd world pissing contests |
00:11 |
asciilifeform |
( the latter largely set up to churn reich inventory and cull surplus males in goatfuckistans ) |
00:12 |
bonechewer |
yes, 3rd world pissing contests are orchestrated by lizards to grow access to cheap labor pool, justify importing "refugees", and fund bonuses that will fund some nice kitchen and bathroom renovations in a few Northern Virginia suburbs |
00:13 |
* |
bonechewer nontheless has queasy feeling that lizard hate for US plebes will get even more active |
00:13 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: also to prevent appearance of new empires on the map. |
00:13 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2019-02-01 asciilifeform: these are the folx for whom e.g. tyre fire of libya is a 'success' ( ghaddafi dead? check. no unified arabistan ? check. etc ) |
00:13 |
bonechewer |
because what's to turn it around? |
00:14 |
bonechewer |
Gadhafi not only dead, but nobody else tempted to demand gold in exchange for their oil |
00:14 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: it's a predator-prey relationship. one doesn't 'hate' one's food |
00:14 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-08-15 12:21:23 asciilifeform: the reason why inflation is observable in 'cartoon colours' in sad orcistans, e.g. argentina, is that in such shitholes, the elite's ~only asset is the printing press. crowned muppet ~will~ try to keep palace and private jet etc, even if has to pay for it 100% by printing peso. |
00:14 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: correct |
00:16 |
bonechewer |
asciilifeform: lizards per se may not hate amerikaners but a lot of their minions sure do |
00:17 |
bonechewer |
Nearly as much as Nuland, Blinken, & co. hate Russians. Deep-seated ancestral hatred. |
00:19 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: there's an interesting psychological trick that asciilifeform is ill-qualified to comment on, where 'desk flyer' in blue hat is conditioned to hate trucker in red hat, powered by likely his dread of having to do honest work w/ own hands, or his red-hatted grandfather's belt buckle in his arse, etc |
00:20 |
asciilifeform |
fact is, w/ exception of lizards , ~erryone in usa is no moar than 3 gens 'outta the coal mine' |
00:20 |
asciilifeform |
or the cotton plantation etc |
00:20 |
asciilifeform |
the hatred is -- engineered -- self-hatred. |
00:23 |
asciilifeform |
lizards in usa 'solved' the 'unions problem' by getting rid of labour, creating caste of lumpens on left side of bell curve and caste of paper shufflers on right side, with the sleight-of-hand moar than sufficing to ramp down expectations of life for all of'em |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
00:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-04-22 14:01:38 asciilifeform: this is a '50s-era decision, btw. originally made, in usa, to destroy the unions. |
00:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-08-12 16:01:23 asciilifeform: there is a large, brick (quite rarity in usa) house near where asciilifeform lives. owner -- died, no immediate heirs, somehow ended up in bureaucratic limbo, uninhabited, decaying lawn machinery, etc. for many yrs, i assumed it had belonged to a successful businessman, or high official. then found out from elderly townsfolks -- a schoolteacher had lived there. |
00:24 |
bonechewer |
hmm, your contention reminds me of old-school sovok class-based analysis |
00:24 |
asciilifeform |
cuz it was factual. |
00:24 |
bonechewer |
by which broke-ass blue plebe should make common cause with broke-ass red plebe |
00:24 |
bonechewer |
which is logical, don't get me wrong |
00:24 |
asciilifeform |
both colours of plebe have 1 actual enemy. |
00:25 |
bonechewer |
economically, sure |
00:25 |
asciilifeform |
wasn't so long ago that they were even issued the coloured hats. |
00:25 |
bonechewer |
but same goes for shia plebe and sunni plebe in iraq |
00:25 |
asciilifeform |
well those were issued hats 1000+y ago |
00:25 |
bonechewer |
or catholic plebe vs. protestant plebe in northern ireland |
00:25 |
asciilifeform |
rather diff. case |
00:25 |
* |
bonechewer disagrees |
00:26 |
bonechewer |
blue and red plebes belong to different religions, de facto |
00:26 |
asciilifeform |
rather young religions tho. |
00:26 |
bonechewer |
blue plebes follow the Woke, Globohomo cult |
00:27 |
bonechewer |
red plebes some post-Reagan remnant of pro-US flag waving |
00:27 |
bonechewer |
Whatever nominal Christianity they may also profess (fewer and fewer of them) hardly enteres into it |
00:27 |
bonechewer |
*enters |
00:27 |
bonechewer |
indeed, rather young religions. |
00:28 |
bonechewer |
whether this was engineered by the lizards, or happened naturally, I couldn't say |
00:29 |
* |
asciilifeform had a family friend in deep dod contract payola dough, who liked to say 'whether the catholics win the election, or the lesbians, i'ma still get paid just the same' |
00:29 |
bonechewer |
Although the evidence that lizards engineered feminism to get more women into the workforce and monetize child care is pretty good imho |
00:30 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: orig. was to double the clerk supply and put wages through the floor. worked a++ |
00:30 |
* |
bonechewer agrees re: feminism |
00:30 |
asciilifeform |
(at one time a bank clerk's wage sufficed to feed a family) |
00:31 |
bonechewer |
family friend also not wrong, but doesn't change the fact that antifa plebes hate MAGA plebes enough to shoot them down in the street |
00:31 |
asciilifeform |
to date moar shouting than shooting |
00:31 |
bonechewer |
yet lizard regime funds and protects only antifa |
00:32 |
bonechewer |
shooting is nonzero |
00:33 |
asciilifeform |
is funny, how erry time they need to agitate for yr+, bus in over9000 morons of both hat colours into some shithole, and spend 1e8$ on provocateurs, to get 1-2 corpses |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
00:33 |
asciilifeform |
(which then can be paraded on tv for yrs) |
00:34 |
asciilifeform |
rather low roi. |
00:35 |
bonechewer |
number of corpses grew steadily in 1970s, likely to do so again |
00:35 |
asciilifeform |
see also |
00:35 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-05-02 14:33:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034974 << tried to have reichstag fire, but no one could find a match that'd light..? |
00:36 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: in '70s mostly slum dwellers agitated into torching own slums (since became a kind of tradition in usa) |
00:36 |
asciilifeform |
( see also ) |
00:36 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2019-12-02 02:26:44 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: disappointing, but unsurprising. in usa also riots ~always like that -- the designated 'kindling' (i.e. slums) burn, and (almost...) never the skyscrapers. |
00:37 |
asciilifeform |
observe how it's never a 1e7$ mansion that's torched, and never lockheed hq, nor a yacht, nor harvard, etc |
00:37 |
bonechewer |
separately upstack re: wrist pain, I wanted to reiterate that for pain in the little finger and ring finger, the Kinesis Advantage keyboard is the way to go |
00:37 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-10-13 11:44:19 bonechewer: I saw an orthopedist and he recommended two things, which I followed: |
00:38 |
bonechewer |
Plus 50 mg of Vitamin B6 per day |
00:38 |
asciilifeform |
bonechewer: not yet encountered anyone cured by keyboard rec (incl. asciilifeform's) |
00:38 |
bonechewer |
That combination has been a silver bullet for me and one former co-worker |
00:38 |
bonechewer |
But again, only for pain caused by squishing the nerve on the little-finger side of the wrist |
00:39 |
asciilifeform |
'emacs pinky' |
00:39 |
bonechewer |
Precisely emacs pinky |
00:39 |
asciilifeform |
( oblig naggum ) |
00:39 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2014-09-22 asciilifeform: switching caps lock and ctrl << 'Emacs actually comes with a builting Emacs Aptitude Test. Do you remap your keyboard or the Emacs keybindings before the chords and sequences it comes with by default have wreaked havoc with your hands? If you do not do anything to make Emacs more convenient for yourself, you may not have the prerequisite aptitude to use it productive.' (naggum, who else. http://www.xach.com/na |
00:39 |
* |
bonechewer developed after a few years of heavy emacs use at work |
00:40 |
bonechewer |
Since not everything is emacs, the Kinesis Advantage (or similarly shaped Kinesis Classic) is exactly what's needed |
00:40 |
bonechewer |
This puts backspace and control on thumbs |
00:41 |
* |
asciilifeform still suspects that 'gold standard' prevention & cure of wrist rot is simply not hammering in MB of txt / d |
| |
↖ |
00:41 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-25 15:41:38 asciilifeform: has suffered symptoms resembling early stages of wrist rot in the past, tho, when actually had to key > coupla kB / d |
00:41 |
bonechewer |
That may be, but I am paid much better to hammer in MB of text than I would be to hammer in nails |
00:42 |
bonechewer |
And that keyboard plus the B6 has let me do so for 2+ decades, when thought would have to quit after a couple years |
00:42 |
asciilifeform |
(and also perhaps not smashing yer hand on rock-hard incompressible horror all day long) |
00:42 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-10-12 21:26:03 asciilifeform: yer fingers need tactile feedback to give the muscle power somewhere to go; as well as to come to a comfortable stop before smashing into immovable object (keyboard bottom, desk) |
00:42 |
bonechewer |
Yes, Kinesis is a mechanical kbd, but just using a conventional mechanical kbd was not enough to prevent pain for me |
00:43 |
asciilifeform |
asciilifeform's current kbd for instance has 10mm of spring travel. |
00:43 |
bonechewer |
As to specifics: the "KB500" models should be avoided; they have a bug and do no function with modern USB controllers |
00:43 |
* |
asciilifeform not used subj, cannot comment |
00:44 |
thimbronion |
bonechewer: re vitamin B6, recently found a butcher that gets liver in weekly. |
00:44 |
* |
asciilifeform 's kbd |
00:44 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-06-18 17:04:45 asciilifeform: from above, pic of the particular item i use . |
00:44 |
bonechewer |
Current model is the "KB600", works A++. Old PS/2 versions ("Kinesis Classic") also fine. |
00:44 |
* |
bonechewer believes firmly enough to make the following offer: |
00:45 |
bonechewer |
If one of you guys on this channel tries the Kinesis + B6 for pain that numbs the little finger and ring finger and it does not work, I will purchase it from you at the list price |
| |
↖ |
00:46 |
asciilifeform |
iirc whaack had sumthing like this |
00:46 |
bonechewer |
(because they are spendy |
00:46 |
asciilifeform |
eh that aint 'spendy' |
00:46 |
asciilifeform |
'model f' for instance cost, wat, 2k$ in ~1980~ $ |
00:47 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. like 'harley' |
00:47 |
* |
bonechewer is impecunious enough to not part with $319 lightly |
00:47 |
* |
asciilifeform 's cost him very little to purchase but weeks of time spent in restoration |
00:49 |
asciilifeform |
in particular, soldering in wong's controller was a bitch (ribbon cable) |
00:50 |
asciilifeform |
not to mention the sanding, stripping, painting, ultrasonic baths for the mechanicals |
00:50 |
asciilifeform |
was worth it imho tho |
00:50 |
bonechewer |
Relevance to Kinesis is that to make the KB500s usable, have to crack them open and attach the appropriate cable to make it a PS/2 kbd rather than USB |
00:51 |
asciilifeform |
thing is indestructible short of running a train over it |
00:51 |
asciilifeform |
(and impervious to dust, liquids -- contactless electrostatic switches) |
00:51 |
asciilifeform |
( this re 'ibm model f' ) |
00:51 |
* |
bonechewer shares some of that experience: at one work location, had to press his original 1997 Kinesis Classic into service after removing over a decade of grime |
00:52 |
asciilifeform |
subj for ref. |
00:52 |
asciilifeform |
err, subj |
00:52 |
* |
bonechewer thinks I used similar item 1991-1992 on horribly slow IBM AIX box of the time, but can't be sure of the details |
00:53 |
asciilifeform |
most likely was the 'model m' |
00:53 |
asciilifeform |
'f' uncommon |
00:54 |
asciilifeform |
( in 'm', springs but over a conventional rubber dome matrix internally. and annoyingly riveted down, difficult to clean 100% ) |
00:54 |
asciilifeform |
the key caps are compat. tho |
00:55 |
* |
asciilifeform pulled caps from buncha 'm'-s to terraform the 'f' into a pclike layout instead of the oddball dumb terminal thing |
00:55 |
bonechewer |
The machine was the IBM RT PC, slow even by the standards of the time, but what the keyboard may have been I defer to asciilifeform |
00:56 |
* |
asciilifeform not encountered subj, cannot comment in depth |
00:58 |
bonechewer |
In any case, I logged on purely to once more extol the Kinesis like the fanatic that I am |
00:58 |
bonechewer |
But ended up having pleasant conversation with asciilifeform, for which I am grateful |
00:58 |
asciilifeform |
a++ |
00:58 |
bonechewer |
Must leave the terminal now; have a good evening! |
00:58 |
asciilifeform |
nighty, bonechewer |
| |
~ 3 hours 46 minutes ~ |
04:45 |
jonsykkel |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075834 << ah |
04:45 |
jonsykkel |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075838 << ok, so if blue(b) speaks after green has stored yellow as designated blue relayer, it will show up as "blue-fake1" or watever in greens console? (even tho direct peer) while messages from blue(a) will show up as just "blue". |
04:45 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 09:06:12 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: asciilifeform reverted the 4.3.1 step8 thing before went to bed |
| |
↖ |
04:45 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 10:42:25 asciilifeform: if they do not, and, say, blue(a) fires, all three (yellow, red, green) will store 'yellow' as designated relayer for 'troo' 'a', and worx |
04:45 |
jonsykkel |
wat then happens if blue(a) unpeers yellow and peers with red instead? and starts talking |
| |
↖ |
04:45 |
jonsykkel |
also in original case entire net will agree on whos real blue guy. wat if 2 nets with no collisions yet merge where net1 agrees that blue(a) is real guy and net2 agrees on blue(b)? |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 8 hours 34 minutes ~ |
13:20 |
whaack |
!e view-height |
13:20 |
trbexplorer |
block_height: 720476 |
13:20 |
trbexplorer |
mins_since_last_block: 15 |
| |
~ 1 hours 43 minutes ~ |
15:03 |
whaack |
still no reorgs afaik |
15:05 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076608 << msgs from direct peers, from receiver's pov, always authentic (and fork which contradicts'em -- bogus) |
| |
↖ ↖ |
15:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-25 23:45:38 jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075838 << ok, so if blue(b) speaks after green has stored yellow as designated blue relayer, it will show up as "blue-fake1" or watever in greens console? (even tho direct peer) while messages from blue(a) will show up as just "blue". |
15:06 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076610 << see above |
15:06 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-25 23:45:43 jonsykkel: wat then happens if blue(a) unpeers yellow and peers with red instead? and starts talking |
15:07 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076611 << on ea. of the merged nets, stations would see 'their' blue as the authentic one. |
| |
↖ |
15:07 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-25 23:45:46 jonsykkel: also in original case entire net will agree on whos real blue guy. wat if 2 nets with no collisions yet merge where net1 agrees that blue(a) is real guy and net2 agrees on blue(b)? |
15:08 |
asciilifeform |
('their' being the 1 which had spoken on that net 1st.) |
15:09 |
asciilifeform |
nao what's not clear to asciilifeform is whether the proposed rule actually achieves this. |
15:10 |
jonsykkel |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076616 << green will at first store yellow as designated relayer for blue, but then if his direct peer blue talks then that is new genuine blue? |
15:10 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 10:05:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076608 << msgs from direct peers, from receiver's pov, always authentic (and fork which contradicts'em -- bogus) |
15:10 |
asciilifeform |
jonsykkel: correct |
15:11 |
jonsykkel |
(from greens perspective) |
15:11 |
jonsykkel |
i see |
15:14 |
jonsykkel |
so idea is that entire net doesnt necessarily agree on who owns x handle, just that an individual pestron is able to auto resolve l2+ forks? |
15:15 |
asciilifeform |
correct. i.e. the scheme doesn't actually satisfy asciilifeform's orig. condition . |
15:15 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-23 23:56:22 asciilifeform: applies (unless asciilifeform miscalculates) recursively, to enforce '1st user owns the handle' across the pestnet. |
15:15 |
jonsykkel |
aight |
15:17 |
asciilifeform |
nor even the weakened variant of same |
15:17 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 12:10:30 asciilifeform: the fundamental unsolved problem atm is in fact ~distinguishing~ multiple l2+ stations speaking w/ same handle. |
15:18 |
jonsykkel |
cant this be done using teh chains? |
15:18 |
asciilifeform |
this -- would, but can't think of any way to do it. |
15:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 15:06:55 asciilifeform: if one could fit e.g. a lamport sig in there, there'd be no headache. |
15:19 |
asciilifeform |
jonsykkel: a fundamental problem w/ the chains is that there's no fork until the original speaks up and skips the bogus. |
15:19 |
asciilifeform |
(and that it may well be the bogus who constructs his msg to skip the original's) |
15:21 |
asciilifeform |
the ideal unobtainium would be, as described in linked thrd, if erry msg in fact contained a pubkey with which its successor must be signed. but there aint a pubkey cryptosystem that would work here, what with keys & sigs having to fit in ~32bytes, and, most importantly, operate at cpu expense comparable to that of a coupla hashes |
15:23 |
jonsykkel |
so this is strictly a problem in case of malicious variant of fork |
15:23 |
jonsykkel |
(2 diff continuations of same chain) |
15:23 |
jonsykkel |
and not 2 parallel chains of ppl that just happened to use same handle |
15:24 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
15:24 |
jonsykkel |
i feel like shud be terms to distinguish these |
15:24 |
jonsykkel |
i see i see |
15:24 |
asciilifeform |
the other, orthogonal problem, is that there's no way to distinguish the speakers if they're l3+ |
15:24 |
asciilifeform |
err, l2+ |
15:24 |
asciilifeform |
and relayed by same peer |
15:25 |
asciilifeform |
can distinguish by chains, if and only if there's actually a fork |
15:32 |
asciilifeform |
if it weren't for the fact that impostor can extend existing chain, one could simply declare 'well behaved station won't relay fork msgs'. but of course he can extend it, and so the chain would be entirely worthless info, as the orig. could not then 'hey, that wasn't me' |
15:32 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 12:20:19 thimbronion: So the only person who could identify a counterfeit station would be the original station - because, hey - that wasn't me! |
15:36 |
jonsykkel |
so wat u realy need is non-onetime sig on evry msg |
15:37 |
asciilifeform |
can be 1time, but gotta be unforgeable by 3rd party |
15:37 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 15:21:04 asciilifeform: hears an l3 msg before you do, and forges it. |
15:37 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. lamport, but somehow fitting in 32bytes. |
| |
↖ |
15:39 |
* |
asciilifeform considered variants where Speaker is 64bytes, with only the bottom 32 representing displayed handle, and the top 32 -- pointing to his 1st msg. but not come up with a variant which actually wins -- for one thing, multiple parties can still trivially extend that chain |
15:39 |
jonsykkel |
gotta read up on lamport |
15:40 |
asciilifeform |
(for anuther, msgs aint forward-linked, so one couldn't getdata ~forward~ from the 'birth' msg) |
15:40 |
asciilifeform |
jonsykkel: asciilifeform's piece re subj. prolly not worth the time, tho, lamport's scheme is unusable here |
15:41 |
asciilifeform |
it needs 2 hashes in the public key for erry ~bit~ of the material to be signed, and 1 equivalently massive string in the signature for erry such bit |
15:43 |
asciilifeform |
the earlier thrd, for reference. |
15:43 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:21 asciilifeform: let's repost: |
15:44 |
asciilifeform |
^ scheme where in fact dr.evil cannot extend yer chain while you're out at sea. but he can do so ~while you're transmitting~ if yer msgs transit his station, which is equally annoying |
15:45 |
* |
asciilifeform will bbl |
15:52 |
jonsykkel |
right |
15:54 |
jonsykkel |
intresting problem |
| |
~ 19 minutes ~ |
16:13 |
asciilifeform |
thinking about the linked thread further : under that scheme, dr.evil is in fact forced to fork your chain if he wants to impersonate you. |
16:14 |
asciilifeform |
( i.e. yes, he has all of your 'A', with the exception of that of the ~last~ msg you sent. so can't forge a successor to ~that~ one, meaning that he gotta withhold it |
16:14 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:42 asciilifeform: A -- is the S from that station's prev. message . |
16:15 |
asciilifeform |
) |
16:15 |
asciilifeform |
but if he aint a bottleneck b/w you and yer l3+ -- the yer genuine last msg. will reach yer l3+. |
16:16 |
jonsykkel |
but he can make single message fork |
16:16 |
asciilifeform |
which can then accept the longest chain (i.e. yours). |
16:16 |
asciilifeform |
jonsykkel: right, but it aint of your ~last~ transmitted msg |
16:16 |
jonsykkel |
i mean single message that apparently is not fork |
16:16 |
asciilifeform |
cuz he dun know the 'A' for your last msg. |
16:17 |
asciilifeform |
ergo, l3+ stations who witness your last msg, will detect the forgery. |
16:17 |
asciilifeform |
(immediately) |
16:17 |
* |
asciilifeform brb |
16:17 |
jonsykkel |
hm |
16:19 |
jonsykkel |
indeed, assuming last msg arrives. which only doesnt happen if drevil only link |
| |
↖ ↖ |
16:23 |
shinohai |
for lulz i built smalpest for armv7 jonsykkel .... runs a++ |
16:25 |
jonsykkel |
cool stuf, soon can have pestron on shitdroid fone! |
16:26 |
shinohai |
thats what i tried it on, some chinesium phone the girls had. |
| |
↖ |
16:26 |
jonsykkel |
aha |
16:27 |
* |
shinohai loves that static c makes it a snap to xfer this to any device ..... |
16:29 |
shinohai |
blatta took a bit of of fiddling with python2.7 in termux, but station is running from phone atm |
16:29 |
jonsykkel |
would xpect to compile most anywhere, exeption being where the coupel of posixs stuffs dont exist |
16:29 |
jonsykkel |
thats cool |
16:32 |
shinohai |
Death drones with pest stations inside, wen ? |
16:32 |
whaack |
shinohai: what is termux? |
16:32 |
jonsykkel |
waiting for pest on iot fridge |
16:33 |
shinohai |
whaack: it's a terminal emulator for android. |
16:35 |
* |
asciilifeform back |
16:35 |
shinohai |
whaack: http://btc.info.gf/uploads/termux.png |
16:37 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076682 << the next thing is to figure out how oughta behave if chain break. |
16:37 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 11:19:35 jonsykkel: indeed, assuming last msg arrives. which only doesnt happen if drevil only link |
16:43 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076685 << pest per se, or simply irctron plugged into same ? |
16:43 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 11:27:03 shinohai: thats what i tried it on, some chinesium phone the girls had. |
16:44 |
shinohai |
asciilifeform: is running blatta (seen in top) and can connect to irc using weechat or raw cmds via nc |
16:44 |
asciilifeform |
a |
16:44 |
* |
asciilifeform doesn't see wai to put station on the proverbial toaster, but nuffin wrong w/ it for so long as you understand that it's effectively a winblows box, i.e. randos may have access to the keyz |
16:45 |
asciilifeform |
... for that matter, somebody somewhere will eventually insist on running his station from winblows. can't stop him, but it'll be 'its own punishment' |
16:46 |
shinohai |
kind of beauty of it tho, if ya want it built into samovar, can haz. |
16:46 |
asciilifeform |
wainot |
16:46 |
asciilifeform |
if yer samovar has a nic and a pentium, can. |
16:47 |
jonsykkel |
would never consider anything less than quadcore samovar |
16:47 |
* |
shinohai has an antique samovar now named Mircea Potpescu for this purpose .... |
16:48 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
16:48 |
asciilifeform |
shinohai: will be interesting to try w/ that pnoje once nat drilling actually implemented |
16:49 |
asciilifeform |
( as asciilifeform understands, currently you'll only have working peerings in own lan, on that thing ) |
16:49 |
shinohai |
I think so too. I like the idea of using it as an "offensive" device, take it places, see what the pest station picks up .... |
16:49 |
asciilifeform |
in what sense 'picks up' ? |
16:50 |
asciilifeform |
w/out nat drilling, will simply sit there |
16:50 |
asciilifeform |
( or does yer telco actually give out usable external ip ? ) |
16:52 |
shinohai |
sure, its not ready for doing anything useful yet |
16:52 |
* |
shinohai turns on camera while pet #1 is in shower, connect to NaughtyPest for only 0.0025 BTC! |
16:53 |
asciilifeform |
shinohai: w/ current blatta, theoretically you'll be able to peer with folx who aint nat'd even from that pnoje |
16:53 |
asciilifeform |
worth a test |
16:54 |
shinohai |
^ thx, will test this |
16:54 |
jonsykkel |
tried this from my shity gsm conection once without sucess but cant remember exact results of experiment |
16:55 |
asciilifeform |
w/ a 0xfa blatta, ~2~ pnojes in principle will peer if both already sitting on given pestnet |
16:55 |
shinohai |
I have not tries via the 4/5G connection, it only has wifi :/ |
16:56 |
asciilifeform |
also worth to test w/ conventional box hanging off wifi of 'tethered' pnoje. double-nat. |
16:56 |
asciilifeform |
theoretically still oughta work w/ current blatta and a nat-less peer |
16:59 |
asciilifeform |
to round off upstack thread -- dr.evil not only must fork, if he wants to forge, but must withhold all subsequent msgs from the original, or even folx who hear the victim only through him will discover the boojum |
| |
↖ ↖ |
16:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 11:19:35 jonsykkel: indeed, assuming last msg arrives. which only doesnt happen if drevil only link |
17:00 |
asciilifeform |
... so imho, that scheme still probably best approach so far. |
| |
↖ |
17:00 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:28 asciilifeform: so, for the sake of argument: suppose that (at the expense of payload) a message gets 2 new h256 fields : call'em Q and A ; |
17:00 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:35 asciilifeform: Q is H(message, incl. A; and a 32-byte turd, S, not included in the msg.) |
17:00 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:42 asciilifeform: A -- is the S from that station's prev. message . |
17:00 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-24 15:04:00 asciilifeform: ... to wrap up upstack: if H(M_prev + A_current) != Q_prev : you have a bogon. |
17:04 |
asciilifeform |
... then, instead of alarming on forks per se, station alarms on any msg w/ given $speaker which aint the tip of the longest known chain for that $speaker. |
17:08 |
asciilifeform |
if you ~have~ (or were able to getdata) the msg.prev of a given msg, by selfchain, and H(msg.prev + msg.A) != msg.prev.Q -- you simply throw out msg. |
17:11 |
asciilifeform |
if you ~don't~ have it (and getdata for it dun succeed within interval 'Tw', you display e.g. '?asciilifeform: i eat bugs!' instead of 'asciilifeform: i eat bugs!' |
17:13 |
asciilifeform |
now the tricky case if if you have what appears to be the contig. chain, but it turns out that you were being duped by dr.evil, and nao you've finally received the tip of the ~oldest~ (what you actually want, rather than 'longest') chain. |
17:15 |
asciilifeform |
seems that the logical thing to do, there, would be to walk the 'orphaned' (dr.evil's bogus) chain, and display e.g. 'bogus: <time>:<asciilifeform>:i eat bugs!' etc. for each msg. in the discarded chain |
17:15 |
asciilifeform |
(in a fyootoor non-irctronic client, could simply mark'em up in the scrollback log) |
17:16 |
asciilifeform |
with the above logic, operators no longer need to concern selves w/ forks and their resolution, near as asciilifeform can tell |
17:17 |
asciilifeform |
to complete the algo, if you had the <?..nick..> thing going , and then finally received the getdata response which fills the chain gap, can go back similarly to the 'bogon list' above, and display ea. of the 'unorphaned' msgs w/out the ? mark. |
17:18 |
asciilifeform |
^ thimbronion jonsykkel et al ^ |
17:19 |
asciilifeform |
the 1 down side, afaik (aside from biting off a further 64bytes from payload) -- is that if you somehow lose yer last 'A', and still want l2+ stations to hear you, will have to change yer handle. |
17:20 |
asciilifeform |
this however is inevitable. 'don't lose it.' |
17:22 |
asciilifeform |
and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
17:22 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 11:59:18 asciilifeform: to round off upstack thread -- dr.evil not only must fork, if he wants to forge, but must withhold all subsequent msgs from the original, or even folx who hear the victim only through him will discover the boojum |
17:24 |
* |
asciilifeform suspects that this is the closest we're gonna get to a general solution, unless somebody somehow comes up with the unobtainium from earlier thrd. |
17:24 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 10:38:05 asciilifeform: i.e. lamport, but somehow fitting in 32bytes. |
17:26 |
asciilifeform |
ftr all of the above to apply strictly to hearsays. |
17:26 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 10:05:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-25#1076608 << msgs from direct peers, from receiver's pov, always authentic (and fork which contradicts'em -- bogus) |
17:26 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. 'your' (l1) bozo is still 'your' bozo even if he loses his 'A'. |
17:27 |
asciilifeform |
(but his l2+ would tune him out) |
17:29 |
* |
asciilifeform puts down microphone, will wait for q's/comments before attempting to stuff this in 0xfa |
| |
↖ |
17:29 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076745 << *willing to bet |
17:29 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes |
| |
~ 6 hours 12 minutes ~ |
23:42 |
thimbronion |
asciilifeform: I'm attempting to grok - will see if I can formulate any questions |
23:42 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion: ty, a++ |
23:42 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion: dun hesitate to ask to elaborate. |
23:48 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg. |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
23:49 |
asciilifeform |
if yer station is in a state of chain breakage (i.e. a getdata failed) and you can't fetch that prev msg for $speaker, you display him as e.g. 'asciilifeform-?: ...' |
23:49 |
asciilifeform |
(supposing asciilifeform is not in yer l1) |
23:51 |
asciilifeform |
if you ~have~ that prev.msg but you saw a fork (i.e. branching off selfchain wise from not-the-last msg w/ that speaker; or 'unlock' didn't match the prev. msg's lock) you display e.g. 'asciilifeform-2-1234: ...' where '2' is # of chain (if this is e.g. 2nd) and 1234 is the nth msg on that chain |
| |
↖ |
23:52 |
asciilifeform |
no need to try to 'resolve' forks, they're all nao distinguishable |
23:53 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. when you get l2+ hearsay which continues (properly, incl. 'unlock's) ~oldest~ chain, you see 'asciilifeform: ...' |
23:53 |
asciilifeform |
^ all of above applies strictly to hearsays. |
23:54 |
asciilifeform |
if yer log has no breaks, you have selfchains going back to 'birth' for yer l2+ speakers, and most recent 'lock' for each (i.e. in the last msg received w/ that $speaker) |
23:55 |
asciilifeform |
( if not obv. here -- selfchain covers all fields, incl. 'unlock' , of prev. msg ) |
23:55 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 18:48:29 asciilifeform: thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg. |
23:57 |
asciilifeform |
if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076745][dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff' |
23:57 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes |
23:57 |
asciilifeform |
grr |
23:57 |
asciilifeform |
if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff' |
| |
↖ |
23:57 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes |
23:58 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion et al : lemme know if makes 100% sense. |