Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-01-17 | 2022-01-19 →
00:38 whaack !e height
00:38 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-balance, view-raw-block, view-block, view-height, view-merkle-root, view-txn, view-utxos, view-raw-txn, verify-block, push
00:38 whaack !e view-height
00:38 trbexplorer block_height: 719221
00:38 whaack putting trbexplorer asleep for a minute, new version going online
~ 16 minutes ~
00:55 whaack !e help
00:55 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-raw-tx, view-balance, view-descendents, view-block, view-height, verify-all, verify-all-blocks, view-ancestors, view-utxos, view-merkle-root, verify-block, push, view-highest-high-s-block, view-tx, view-raw-block, view-sig-distribution
00:55 whaack !e view-height
00:55 trbexplorer block_height: 719224
00:55 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-raw-tx, view-balance, view-descendents, view-block, view-height, verify-all, verify-all-blocks, view-ancestors, view-utxos, view-merkle-root, verify-block, push, view-highest-high-s-block, view-tx, view-raw-block, view-sig-distribution
00:55 whaack !e view-block 654321
00:55 trbexplorer height: 654321
00:55 trbexplorer size_bytes: 864671
00:55 trbexplorer version: 1073733632
00:55 trbexplorer prev_hash: 0000000000000000000626308e720d3ea3cbff0873c5fcb636ad9065b13ac6bb
00:55 trbexplorer hash: 000000000000000000058452bbe379ad4364fe8fda68c45e299979b492858095
00:55 trbexplorer merkle_root: b6017391419a6da58855d8d0561b2a76a62e2106f3af700b1fb3280c316c5698
00:55 trbexplorer timestamp: 1603685852
00:55 trbexplorer target: 386798414
00:55 trbexplorer nonce: 866964177
00:55 trbexplorer num_txs: 1914
00:55 trbexplorer fees_btc: 0.36808808
00:55 trbexplorer fees_sats: 36808808
00:55 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-raw-tx, view-balance, view-descendents, view-block, view-height, verify-all, verify-all-blocks, view-ancestors, view-utxos, view-merkle-root, verify-block, push, view-highest-high-s-block, view-tx, view-raw-block, view-sig-distribution
00:56 whaack argh, apologies for spam, will fix that command to return in a dpaste in next iteration
00:57 whaack !e view-txn 654321 0
00:57 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-raw-tx, view-balance, view-descendents, view-block, view-height, verify-all, verify-all-blocks, view-ancestors, view-utxos, view-merkle-root, verify-block, push, view-highest-high-s-block, view-tx, view-raw-block, view-sig-distribution
00:57 whaack !e view-tx 654321 0
00:57 trbexplorer http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=9c1N 1 of 1
00:57 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-raw-tx, view-balance, view-descendents, view-block, view-height, verify-all, verify-all-blocks, view-ancestors, view-utxos, view-merkle-root, verify-block, push, view-highest-high-s-block, view-tx, view-raw-block, view-sig-distribution
00:57 whaack signpost: i renamed view-txn to view-tx, i think you were linking to txs in deedbot nowadays, the link will need to be updated
00:58 whaack looks like trbexplorer is always returnign the help...derp
01:02 whaack !e view-block 654321
01:02 trbexplorer http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=IlZd 1 of 1
01:03 whaack signpost: seems like deedbot is dead atm
01:09 signpost !!help
01:09 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
01:10 signpost whaack: what's the problem?
~ 26 minutes ~
01:36 scoopbot New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFB.
01:36 asciilifeform ^ thimbronion , jonsykkel , et al ^
01:37 asciilifeform q's / corrections welcome.
01:39 asciilifeform billymg: plox to update your mirror when you get a chance, ty
01:44 * asciilifeform thinks is reasonably close to a ~99% 'handwave removal'
01:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 12:40:56 asciilifeform: attempting to remove all 'handwaves' from spec and turn it into sumthing reasonably like a straight pseudocoad, implementable w/out having to bash head against problems which 'hey you must solve' but spec aint saying just how
01:51 jonsykkel looks good
01:52 jonsykkel whats sha257 tho
01:54 jonsykkel gotta make packets bigger for that one extra bit
02:00 asciilifeform loltypo
02:00 asciilifeform apparently can't escape these
02:01 * shinohai goes off to immediately make an Ether token and claim it uses `sha257` .....
02:02 jonsykkel how do i invest
02:02 shinohai Send as much BTC as possible to the addy on my www. Guaranteed 9,623% returns!
02:05 asciilifeform lol!
~ 2 hours 36 minutes ~
04:42 asciilifeform meanwhile in usg lulz.
04:51 mats i am pretty curious what happens next
04:52 mats congress is a lame duck now and probably after midterms, and gop is demographically on the ropes
04:53 mats all the ded folk plus demographic decline prob means even more immigration, with accompanying political problems
04:54 mats gop will be fucked even w/o voter rights bills, so is the future civil war or one party statehood?
04:56 mats congresspeople are actively discussing national divorce on public fora, but how, and i srsly doubt a country with 40% overweight and diabetic citizens going to do any fighting
05:04 mats https://www.newsweek.com/kyle-biedermann-texas-state-rep-who-marched-capitol-introduces-bill-secede-union-1565159 this bill died, but interesting that it even happened
05:05 signpost this happens now and again in the "muh liberty" states. NH had one recently too
05:05 signpost "national divorce" also getting chattered about moar in social media
05:06 signpost pretty clever propaganda term there, imho.
05:16 signpost mats: honestly I think we get poorer and bitch loudly, and other than provincial wars in places like ukraine, not much happens.
05:18 signpost also not clear to me that GOP is done. covid policy was bungled enough to maybe soften up a few purple-ish places.
~ 7 hours 28 minutes ~
12:47 PeterL I don't see how you can say "GOP is done", a % or two swing in a couple states last election and they would still be in control.
12:50 PeterL the media always finds ways to divide people along mostly meaningless issues so that we end up with interesting 50/50 splits in the electorate that make the elections seem really exciting
~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~
14:12 PeterL asciilifeform: why do you set a minimum of 3 for the Speaker length?
14:15 PeterL pest 0xfb section 3.2.4. Do all handles and peer names also have this limitation?
14:24 asciilifeform PeterL: what min. length would you prefer ( & wai ) ?
14:25 asciilifeform PeterL: correct, all 'Speaker' values
14:26 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-17#1073653 << see also.
14:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-17 23:52:39 mats: congress is a lame duck now and probably after midterms, and gop is demographically on the ropes
14:26 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-28 asciilifeform: y'know, as a boy, i was playing with other boyz in the yard and mentioned съезд кпсс , and they laughed. i learned lesson - for life.
14:26 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-28 asciilifeform: and the american съезд кпсс is ~equally influential and interesting as the original.
14:27 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-17#1073655 << already solidly 1party, and has been for many yrs
14:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-17 23:54:53 mats: gop will be fucked even w/o voter rights bills, so is the future civil war or one party statehood?
14:27 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-17#1073656 << lemme guess, on twatter? (i.e. the same place the diabetics will 'fight civil wars')
14:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-17 23:56:48 mats: congresspeople are actively discussing national divorce on public fora, but how, and i srsly doubt a country with 40% overweight and diabetic citizens going to do any fighting
14:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073661 << correct, the 1 and only thing that actually happens. (observe that even the 'provincial wars' dun actually end w/ a 'win')
14:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 00:16:44 signpost: mats: honestly I think we get poorer and bitch loudly, and other than provincial wars in places like ukraine, not much happens.
14:32 PeterL Why do you need a minimum over 1? even here we have d4 with only 2 characters?
~ 38 minutes ~
15:11 asciilifeform PeterL: picture tab completion in a chan w/ dozen or so single-char nicks lol
15:14 jonsykkel i agre cant see good reason for enforcing minimum len > 1
15:14 jonsykkel tabbing can jsut patch ircclient to ignure singlechar nicks
15:15 * asciilifeform put considerable effort concretely into ~not having to patch his irc clients~
15:15 asciilifeform if errybody seems to want 1char nicks ( thimbronion ? signpost ? ) will amend that sect. in 0xfa , then.
15:15 asciilifeform imho 1-2ch niks are lame.
15:16 jonsykkel isnt long term plan is to rip out irc part of guts entirely anyway?
15:16 asciilifeform jonsykkel: long term
15:16 * asciilifeform doesn't expect to see a usable pure-pest client any time soon
15:17 jonsykkel they are indeed lame, but plenty of other lame nick constructions "aaaaaaaaaaaaa" etc
15:17 asciilifeform for this reason
15:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-06 20:00:22 asciilifeform: cuz to date i've not seen a term proggy from which can select e.g. page of text and then paste w/out linebreak pollution
15:18 asciilifeform it'd have to be a x11 proggy, and asciilifeform doesn't know anyone who writes these, and dun have time to do w/ own hands
15:18 asciilifeform it's why went through effort to glue pest to irc moar or less cleanly.
15:19 asciilifeform specifically so that could use e.g. xchat.
15:19 jonsykkel sure
15:22 jonsykkel another idea could be to have peer specific knob for "display name" or smth that pestron uses when displaying msgs to operator console (could simply be bool like - always display messages from this peer using first handle in H)
15:22 asciilifeform omfgno
15:22 jonsykkel wats rong with that
15:22 asciilifeform you go then to manually examine logs / debug dumps / etc and go 'wtf'
15:22 asciilifeform names -- canonical.
15:23 asciilifeform i suppose if one insists on 'display asciilifeform as 'bozo clown' in local console) -- can implement locally, asciilifeform cannot stop him
15:23 asciilifeform but nfi wai this misfeature gotta be in spec
15:24 asciilifeform it has 0 to do w/ protocol
15:24 jonsykkel point was jsut to avoid arbitrary limit on speaker name
15:24 jonsykkel but i se point about names being canonical etc
15:26 asciilifeform jonsykkel: re 'remap' -- there's an arithmetical issue : atm peer can have >1 handle
15:26 asciilifeform if you remap all of'em in console to 'bozo' -- what happens when you tabcomp. and address 'bozo' ? on the emitter end
15:27 asciilifeform to which nick then maps back?
15:27 jonsykkel ah ye
15:27 asciilifeform aha.
15:27 asciilifeform btw the >1 nick thing is concretely to allow changing of nicks
15:27 asciilifeform (which'd otherwise be ~impossible)
15:28 jonsykkel yep makes sense
15:28 asciilifeform very few things in the spec are there because asciilifeform threw a dart
15:29 asciilifeform (the '3 chars' thing is perhaps the only solid example of these)
15:29 asciilifeform for the most part spent over9000 thinking re implications
15:29 asciilifeform (can't guarantee that not missed any, tho)
15:40 billymg mirror of the pest spec now updated to 0xFB
15:40 asciilifeform ty billymg !
15:41 jonsykkel minimizing # of darts is good
15:41 jonsykkel re: "64-bit monotonic epoch clock" << if the clock can be synced how can it be monotonic? afaik unix looking stuff generally has CLOCK_MONOTONIC whcih cannot be set by user adn some other CLOCKS that can be set
15:41 jonsykkel also "fixed-point"?
15:41 asciilifeform jonsykkel: monotonic clocks are synced by adjusting speed while retaining fwd motion
15:42 asciilifeform jonsykkel: fixedpoint, i.e. integer
15:42 jonsykkel in my hed fixed point is like u assign some # of bits to be fractional part of number
15:43 * asciilifeform will s/fixedpoint/integer in the spec , tho afaik the current usage conforms to tradition
15:45 jonsykkel idk i guess it is technically a fixedpoint with point all the way to "right"
15:49 * asciilifeform enjoying billymg's prettyprinted 0xfb. if only asciilifeform knew how to make own www actually display like these
15:51 jonsykkel aha seems COCK_MONOTONIC_RAW is the one that isnt affected at al by ntp. didnt know about the speed adjust thing
15:51 asciilifeform jonsykkel: what matters there is not 'never adjusted' but 'never moves backwards'
15:51 jonsykkel indeed
15:52 asciilifeform adjustment via periodically slowing/stopping is a-ok
15:52 jonsykkel makes sense
15:52 asciilifeform (is how ntpism typically adjusts when drift)
16:01 whaack pretty sure fixedpoint has a clear math meaning... x | f(x) = x
16:02 jonsykkel what does | mean in mathspeak tho
16:03 asciilifeform whaack: 'fixed point of function'. diff. animal
16:18 billymg why ty asciilifeform, glad you like it
16:18 billymg does anyone here know how to get a firefox built and running on a musl system? wasn't anticipating this hiccup
16:18 whaack | is "such that" iirc
16:19 asciilifeform billymg: iirc signpost has 1, may be able to dig up recipe when he wakes
16:19 PeterL tab completion: if you want to talk to a, then you don't need tab completion. If you want abner then you will have to supply "ab". you already need to type a couple characters to differentiate scoopbot from signpost
16:20 asciilifeform PeterL: can't speak for erryone, but asciilifeform has 'muscle memory' tab compl. for erry ln
16:20 asciilifeform ( and historically quite frustrated w/ irctrons, e.g. would like to be able to encode 'it's NEVER scoopbot i'm talking to, stop offering it' )
16:21 whaack billymg: yes that pestmirror looks great! bitdash is coming along
16:21 billymg ty whaack
16:21 whaack why don't you remove 'v' and 'faq' from the menu on the homepage / put something there?
16:21 shinohai billymg: Iffn' you emerge newer FF, be mindful it requires the "Rust" abomination ......
16:22 asciilifeform btw dunno whether noted this, but 0xfc and 0xfb vpatches include the www graphic svg. who wants, can fiddle w/ it
16:22 billymg shinohai: already successfully emerged rust, that built fine on the first try (was enormous though)
16:23 whaack rust is the religion of newbie programmers
16:23 jonsykkel personal forks of small simple spermanent softwares (suckless style) is how the ancient greeks would compute if they had computers
16:23 billymg i thought building ff would be easy after that, but fails mysteriously with "(no error message)"
16:23 shinohai s/newbie/troons/g
16:23 * whaack had to urban dictionary troon, brutal
16:24 jonsykkel any problems like irctron tab completion not behaving 100% like want goes away with 3line patch to code
16:24 shinohai But iirc KISS linux use musl, there might be a FF recipe published by them though dunno tbh.
16:24 asciilifeform indeed jonsykkel . but 'go and find' those 3ln, and 'go and build' the megalith after
16:24 jonsykkel indeed, but why is it a megalith in first place
16:25 asciilifeform jonsykkel: and see also
16:27 jonsykkel megalith is cuz implemeneted every single feature request ever so anyone can use soft without modifications
16:28 asciilifeform jonsykkel: strictly because misarchitected.
16:28 jonsykkel (which is an immpossible goal to begin with, so in "technologically advanced cases" u have disgusting scripting langs bolted to prog)
16:28 billymg shinohai: aha, found a binary ff yanked from KISS in this overlay, will give this a shot
16:29 shinohai o7
16:32 shinohai Of possible interest to those who want "classic" FF without Rust shit: https://www.basilisk-browser.org/
16:32 * shinohai keeping eye on this .....
16:33 asciilifeform shinohai: have you tried building ^ ?
16:34 shinohai asciilifeform: About year ago built for armv7 and worked fine. (tbh so many irons in fire I haven't had chance to revisit)
16:35 shinohai Still using un-googled chromium atm :/
~ 18 minutes ~
16:53 jonsykkel re naggum quote: not sure i understand, i fail to imagine how to get sufficient flexibility in design but that doesnt end up involving horrific script tumors growing out of prog, in which case the scripts become part of the program anyway, and then whats the difference? maybe should read that linked usenet thread tho
16:53 jonsykkel imo makes perfect sense in corectly architected ancient greek software to have configuration == modify source (most of the time only topmost layers of code pyramid need to be touched)
16:59 asciilifeform jonsykkel: i'd rather have 'script tumours' a la emacs than a multi-GB ff-like turd
~ 24 minutes ~
17:24 thimbronion ok my winter break is officially over. back to work.
17:24 asciilifeform wb thimbronion
17:24 thimbronion ty
17:28 * asciilifeform looks fwd to thimbronion's comments on 0xfb
17:29 thimbronion asciilifeform: not sure exactly how to tackle that. I think I may just have to reread the whole thing.
17:29 jonsykkel multigb ffturds 100%cancer agreed, unrelated to point im trying to make tho. maybe following mspaint diagram can help illustrate distinction im talking about http://zzz.st/up/m6y5UhDa/soft.png
17:29 asciilifeform thimbronion: at this pt makes moar sense to read whole thing, imho, fiddled w/ just about errything
17:30 jonsykkel tried reading vpatch first but also found rereading makes more sense
17:30 jonsykkel easy to spot where new stuf is anyway
17:30 asciilifeform vpatch sadly quite obese, cuz touched just about erry ln
17:34 thimbronion signpost: you ever figure out a way to get a readable version of the pest spec onto a remarkable?
17:37 asciilifeform hm thimbronion they dun eat html?
17:38 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 << this is imho fundamentally correct. however must observe that the 'suckless' approach doesn't actually generalize, because 'unix philosophy' is actually braindamaged: proggies other than simple text stream cmdline items dun actually compose meaningfully
17:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:29:44 jonsykkel: multigb ffturds 100%cancer agreed, unrelated to point im trying to make tho. maybe following mspaint diagram can help illustrate distinction im talking about http://zzz.st/up/m6y5UhDa/soft.png
17:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 11:23:14 jonsykkel: personal forks of small simple spermanent softwares (suckless style) is how the ancient greeks would compute if they had computers
17:39 asciilifeform ... and even when they do, require massive i/o massage because of gnarly format divergences
17:39 asciilifeform (hence 'perlisms')
17:46 thimbronion asciilifeform: pdf and epub afaik
17:47 jonsykkel maybe thats true, but im not convinced the approach doesnt generalize if built on top of something else than unix os layer (wat exactly that woudl be is a interesting question)
17:49 jonsykkel unix seems to be missing some "types of pipe". like u have in back of a rack diffrent types of wires depending on wat is transmitted connecting stuff
18:03 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073684 << nah this seems useless, and I will be annoyed to refer to someone as e.g. z
18:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 10:15:45 asciilifeform: if errybody seems to want 1char nicks ( thimbronion ? signpost ? ) will amend that sect. in 0xfa , then.
18:04 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073686 << yes but caution against boiling the ocean
18:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 10:16:03 jonsykkel: isnt long term plan is to rip out irc part of guts entirely anyway?
18:05 signpost what one wants in the future pulled forward to justify accumulating debt today is the cultural heirloom of the nation of walmart
18:06 signpost gotta build from first principles outward, starting with what's in one's hands, imho.
18:07 whaack !e view-tx 1337 0
18:07 trbexplorer http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=u1W6 1 of 1
18:07 whaack signpost: yesterday paste.deedbot.org wasn't loading, sorry for not being clear
18:07 signpost nbd
18:07 whaack did you see my note re view-txn and view-tx?
18:08 signpost I didn't; where was it?
18:08 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073625
18:08 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-18 00:57:28 whaack: signpost: i renamed view-txn to view-tx, i think you were linking to txs in deedbot nowadays, the link will need to be updated
18:08 signpost ah, ty
18:09 signpost links seem to still work; I might be linking via your search
18:09 whaack where do you link?
18:10 signpost http://explorer.ztkfg.com/?args=ade3a1fc72406e0a05fabaa284dad1da58197d0a8d5bba4ff0e65b74d97cf452 << for example
18:10 whaack signpost: ah you are using the shorthand, so that still works
18:10 signpost what'd be the proper link? prepend view-tx ?
18:11 whaack signpost: http://explorer.ztkfg.com/?args=view-tx+ade3a1fc72406e0a05fabaa284dad1da58197d0a8d5bba4ff0e65b74d97cf452
18:12 signpost cool, that will be updated on my end in a few minutes.
18:12 whaack nice
18:16 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073741 << my gentoo x11+musl stack of chairs hasn't been tended in a bit, shifted to building up another from iron when I hit tilt on the number of things I had to cut and cauterize.
18:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 11:19:27 asciilifeform: billymg: iirc signpost has 1, may be able to dig up recipe when he wakes
18:17 signpost not yet to X on the new item; however, historically I've dug up musl patches in either Alpine Linux APKBUILDs or gentoo's musl overlay git repo.
18:18 signpost e.g. https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/packages?name=firefox&branch=v3.12 or https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/packages?name=firefox&branch=v3.12 may be places to dig.
18:18 signpost ah feck
18:18 billymg fwiw just tried this one and it seems to work so far
18:18 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 11:28:59 billymg: shinohai: aha, found a binary ff yanked from KISS in this overlay, will give this a shot
18:18 signpost https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/musl.git/tree/www-client/firefox/firefox-91.3.0.ebuild?id=3ccd2605ad083ee655578dfc8a631fb912da3cde
18:19 signpost billymg: ah ok. yeah, cutting hydra heads in this can be a chore.
18:20 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073819 << x took 4evah (and wasn't even on a musl), asciilifeform blew last yr just about an entire 3wk vacation on just x
18:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:17:22 signpost: not yet to X on the new item; however, historically I've dug up musl patches in either Alpine Linux APKBUILDs or gentoo's musl overlay git repo.
18:20 asciilifeform ( dulap-gentoo )
18:20 signpost found also that on my own distro simply plonking down some source and running ./configure or equiv often yields a less dep-entangled build than -fuck -your -mother -already on gentoo
18:20 asciilifeform indeed, in fact had to build it exactly like that
18:21 signpost yar
18:21 asciilifeform 1 idjit dep at a time
18:21 signpost speaking of musl-lolz, user-mode linux has a ptrace b00g on it, doesn't work.
18:22 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073798 << for sure. in context however my point was just that not wanting patch irc client is a bad reason to impose somwhat arbitrary restrictions at protocol lvl. no debt accumulated
18:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:05:00 signpost: what one wants in the future pulled forward to justify accumulating debt today is the cultural heirloom of the nation of walmart
18:22 * signpost bonked into this last night, and asked himself what the fuck he wanted a whole kernel for when had static binaries for everything.
18:22 signpost n00bs can just run w/e in a chroot if they feel like, don't need the kernel for anything.
18:23 signpost jonsykkel: I can't argue with that principle.
18:23 asciilifeform signpost: properly-build stuff (i.e. w/out dynamism at all) dun even need chroot
18:23 asciilifeform ( 'M' is a handy example, 0 linking at all )
18:24 signpost asciilifeform: trying to balance not requiring things of the host in re: fs layout, indeed not needed for any libs
18:24 asciilifeform rotor-trb is anuther
18:24 asciilifeform ah
18:26 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073791 << iirc 'epub' is simply a ball of html in a zip
18:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:46:39 thimbronion: asciilifeform: pdf and epub afaik
18:27 asciilifeform ( e.g. ru b00kw4r3z often found in said format )
18:27 signpost jonsykkel: there is another principle that perhaps applies, not opening up more fronts of war than capacity to fight.
18:28 signpost if the restriction yields degrees of freedom today, and later can be removed with zero cost once UI clients had, sensible compromise imho.
18:28 signpost at any rate not a big deal, just the philosophical values behind the decisions are interesting to discuss.
18:29 signpost by degrees of freedom I mean to the meat puppet behind the keyboard, that he has more options than had before, not degrees of freedom of the software.
18:29 asciilifeform see also
18:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-28 16:24:16 asciilifeform: feels rather 'meh' re the warts of irc compat. but the alternative would've been 'need guisms on N os' and 'need all new bots' before can even experiment w/ prototype -- which asciilifeform maintains is unpalatable.
18:31 jonsykkel not entirely zero cost if d4 has to pick another handle until then (msgs with tmp nick forever in chain). and yeah i dont care about this specific detail to be clear, doesnt make any diff for me. is principles behind decisions that are interesting as u say
18:31 asciilifeform it's sad but troo, well-behaved guism on existing os is in fact over9000x harder than e.g. writing a kernel and compiler.
18:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-03 18:30:39 asciilifeform: fucked with 'wx', 'qt', bought the fucking books, worked through all known public examples of anyffin even vaguely resembling hypertext editors, tried with raw x11, # of misc. horrors. all to 0 useful result.
18:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-06 20:10:57 asciilifeform: what asciilifeform wants is full-fledged x11 proggy, where interface not distinguishable in any way, other than the 1 described, from adult text editor. e.g. has scroll bars, supports mouse wheel, mouse selection, unmutilated cut'n'paste, arbitrary (incl. var width) fonts, and 0 gigantic wads of legacy shitcoad.
18:32 signpost jonsykkel: some dood going by deefour for a bit is better than an infinite regress of intolerables resulting later in inaction.
18:33 asciilifeform !q seen d4
18:33 dulapbot d4 last seen here on 2022-01-04 04:44:14: dot (graphviz) is useful.
18:33 asciilifeform funnily enuff can't be arsed to write in an 'ohnoez, plz dun make min.handle 3 chars'
18:34 signpost in some ways more obvious now, the first attempt at republic had this conceit, "and once the world has bowed before the unfurling of our cocks, then we'll..."
18:34 signpost cannot be allowed again. step by step, each step digestible and in its proper time.
18:34 * asciilifeform moar of the 'save yerself and others around you will be saved'(tm)(r) and 'the salvation of the drowning is work for the hands of the drowning'(tm)(r)(east church) school of thought
18:35 signpost mhm.
18:36 asciilifeform e.g. pest worx just fine w/ 2 stations.
18:36 asciilifeform 0 world conquest req'd.
18:36 asciilifeform imho The Right Thing comes in that shape and strictly that shape.
18:40 * asciilifeform solidly woke up to mp's terminal brain rot when fella introduced the 'gns' idjicy
18:40 dulapbot Logged on 2020-11-02 17:28:16 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-02#1024159 << asciilifeform strongly suspects that all thinking folx are doomed to eventually reinvent p2p hosting . ( trickier -- to actually make it go. and w/out reintroducing centralizations, as in e.g. mp's ludicrous 'gns' power grab propo
18:40 asciilifeform ( recall ? 'let's bake usg.dns all over again' etc )
18:40 signpost yes, but it roots with me y'see.
18:41 signpost let's pull it all the way back to republic, with monarch, eh?
18:41 signpost cults must cause adherents to internalize a contradiction; it permits arbitrary command.
18:42 asciilifeform monarchs oughta refrain from substance abuse imho, lol
18:42 * signpost doesn't even spit on cult, but there's the mechanism.
18:42 asciilifeform mechanism is over9000y old, aha
18:42 signpost "work, despite death" is a contradiction of the same form
18:42 signpost yar
18:43 asciilifeform it worx until moar gravel than gear in the gearbox.
18:43 whaack thimbronion: do you still have that republic-blog search engine online:
18:43 whaack ?*
18:44 thimbronion whaack: no it's down
18:44 whaack that tool was useful, will be happy to help out if there's some work required to bring it back online.
18:46 signpost seriously useful item.
18:46 signpost search across wot n-levels deep into broader internet would kick the shit out of google.
18:47 thimbronion whaack: ok. I think basically I just didn't point the bot here. Then there were the issues of scraping all the webshit off the results. I made some progress there with the lisp version.
18:48 thimbronion last issue I recall with the lisp version was that I couldn't get indexes working in pg as I would expect, and so searches were very slow.
18:48 whaack i was thinking of a blog search engine, where blogs are organized into a tree structure, where each blog is a node, and one's own blog starts as the root node. each blog has a blogroll (ideally w/ standard format) , and each link in the blogroll represents a child node, the search engine starts at your own blog, and then goes down the tree , prioritizing results closer to your blogroll
18:49 asciilifeform pestronic search of pestronically-hosted www's would be a++
18:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
18:50 whaack ofc. this requires each person to have their own local search engine that runs on a server, constantly crawling and indexing, but that's really how it should be if one can afford it.
18:51 thimbronion asciilifeform: incidentally I was able to get a decently formatted pdf version of the pest spec with working links onto my remarkable. Now to actually read.
18:51 asciilifeform thimbronion: a++
18:51 asciilifeform whaack: well not 'constantly' crawling, but when text actually changes.
18:53 asciilifeform arguably 'search sucks'(tm) because folx insist on copying approach of google et al, which is exact opposite of Right Thing in over900 ways
18:53 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
18:54 asciilifeform it's rather like imitating microshit's approach to os
18:54 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073784 << I use their browser extension, which transits their own webshitware to get to the device.
18:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:34:15 thimbronion: signpost: you ever figure out a way to get a readable version of the pest spec onto a remarkable?
18:55 signpost afaik there's a way to scp them on directly, but haven't bothered since I'm reading public items on the thing, and it has a closed-blob firmware anyway
18:55 * asciilifeform had nfi there were tabletrons w/out sumthing like ordinary www browser
18:56 * asciilifeform has various ones, and sometimes even proofreads e.g. pestism on'em, and all that's req'd is to simply load the url in browser
18:56 thimbronion signpost: my problem was mainly formatting - the default conversion to pdf ened up looking like an inch wide solid column and was all on one page
18:58 thimbronion asciilifeform: remarkable 2 has no browser, but is truly excellent for writing shit down and marking up documents.
18:59 asciilifeform seems like very strange omission, the browser
18:59 asciilifeform ( i suppose b/c no obv. place to stuff the annotations in the latter? )
19:00 signpost it's a really low-power device, possibly tried and chewed through battery too quickly.
19:00 * asciilifeform annotates on dead tree
19:01 signpost http://www.davisr.me/projects/parabola-rm/ << folks grunting out a free firmware for it, haven't tried.
19:02 whaack i'm considering adding segshit support to the blockexplorer, with the caveat that any lookup to a segshit address will display a warning in the browser, on one hand it seems the wrong thing because it removes the 'purity' of the block explorer, on the other hand i want this to be a useful tool, and in my real world experience of doing btc otc there is a large customer base that are either going to
19:02 whaack send or receive coins using '3' or 'bc1' addresses, and being unable to view their heathen addresses without going to a heathen block explorer will be a hinderance
19:02 asciilifeform whaack: what's req'd for segshit etc. parsing ?
19:03 asciilifeform (wouldntcha need to get the bloat-blox somewhere?)
19:03 whaack asciilifeform: i am pretty sure i just need to decode the '3' or 'bc1' addresss into its locking script, then do the lookup via the locking script
19:04 asciilifeform right but iirc the script per se aint in a trb 1e6byte block neh
19:04 whaack i'm just decoding it as it is interpreted in a trb block
19:04 asciilifeform a, as 'anyonecanspend' ?
19:04 whaack yes
19:05 whaack gives us the ability to see this 'anyonecanspend' address has .01 btc
19:05 asciilifeform imho then a-ok. i.e. for so long as the browser shows the segshit from trb pov
19:05 whaack absolutely
19:05 whaack the only non-trb perspective is the 'decoding' of the address
19:06 asciilifeform i duns see wainot to decode anyonecanspends
19:06 asciilifeform whether segshitistic or earlier ones
19:06 asciilifeform for so long as they are clearly marked for what they are
19:07 whaack the reason would be from a strategic pov, that is adding 'enemy notation' into own program
19:07 asciilifeform not rly -- trb entirely supports 'anyoen can spend'
19:08 * asciilifeform still not sure whether the oddball 3x etc addrs decode into sumthing meaningful to a trb noad, i.e. w/out the segshit crapola that aint in trb blox, tho
19:09 asciilifeform (if they do -- nuffin wrong w/ decoding'em )
19:09 whaack asciilifeform: i'm not sure either, i'm riding on the assumption that i can get the scriptPubkey as seen by trb, from the 'bc1' and '3' addys
19:09 asciilifeform wainot try
19:10 whaack and trb supports anyonecanspend but not 'bc1' notation
19:10 * asciilifeform insufficiently up to date re prb formats to answr
19:10 asciilifeform obv. it dun eat the prb addrs directly
19:10 asciilifeform q is whether can map'em onto contents of trb blox w/out the segshit extension datas
19:12 whaack my intuition is 99.9% one can, because prb has to be able to create the trb compat scriptPubkey from just the address
19:13 asciilifeform possib
19:14 whaack either case i'm saving this for post-genesis patch
19:16 d4 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: PeterL: I'm sorry, I've missed most of the conversation here. What is this about? Nicknames length? What should be the minimum in your opinion?
19:17 asciilifeform d4: subj
19:18 asciilifeform have you read any of the pest thrds, d4 ?
19:22 d4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073680 << This happens. You can't stop birthday attacks on your tab completion. You are talking about a client feature from my perspective. A UX feature, not a protocol feature.
19:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 10:11:14 asciilifeform: PeterL: picture tab completion in a chan w/ dozen or so single-char nicks lol
19:26 d4 Aside from that, it's up the IRC server deciding wheter a nick is valid. So the Pest server can reject IRC client connecting with a nick that doesn't conform. ie. [this] or `fun`
19:26 I mean this
19:26 `fun` And this
19:27 ` jonsykkel: fight me.
19:27 asciilifeform well yes it rejects, per spec
19:27 asciilifeform proposed min is 3.
19:28 * asciilifeform was picturing, 'suppose pestnets schismed over min. nick len. which side of the wall would asciilifeform want to sit on'
19:29 asciilifeform atm loox like we have d4 (who i've nfi who is..?) on 1, and... errybody else on other
19:30 asciilifeform other thing is, imho folx scrambling to 'reserve' short nicks results in gnarly conv logs
19:31 asciilifeform (recall that a handle must be unique on a given net)
19:32 d4 Supposing I accept IRC-like nick names and distribute software faster then you can, I may split the pestnetwork having the inclusive one being able to write both the IRC-like nick and the strict pest nick. Just saying tho
19:33 asciilifeform d4: asciilifeform aint competing in 'user count olympics' tho
19:33 signpost lol
19:33 asciilifeform ( pest ftr aint gonna win that olympics, if d4 reads spec will probably understand why )
19:33 signpost he's going to beat you with inclusiveness asciilifeform
19:34 asciilifeform lol
19:34 d4 Then again you didn't reply to my question.
19:34 * asciilifeform doesn't actually find the 'min nick len' q ultra-interesting, but finds fascinating the kind of thinking it can apparently provoke
19:35 asciilifeform d4: very obv. anyone can take the protocol and fiddle in arbitrary ways , incl. incompat. ones, or even make up an entirely new thing vaguely suggested by the old
19:35 asciilifeform this aint a concern of asciilifeform's tho
19:35 d4 >I'm sorry, I've missed most of the conversation here. What is this about?
19:36 d4 You pointed me just to the nick len
19:36 asciilifeform d4: 'pest' spec.
19:37 asciilifeform d4: replacement for irc, already in use, and expected to eventually replace dulapnet, on which we are presently speaking
19:37 asciilifeform d4: 2 prototypes already published. etc
19:37 verisimilitude I agree that having an unnatural minimum name length, that being anything but one, is stupid.
19:38 * asciilifeform orig. wrote down '1', then thought 'what will be reaction if 3'
19:38 signpost the assertion that it's stupid oughta carry with it the reasoning.
19:38 asciilifeform ^
19:38 verisimilitude It's unnatural.
19:38 verisimilitude That's to mean it's completely arbitrary.
19:38 signpost that is not reasoning lol
19:38 asciilifeform and conv. where errybody goes by single char. is 'natural' ?
19:39 verisimilitude Yes, because that's the natural minimum.
19:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ever walk into a room and 'hi, i'm 'a'' ?
19:39 verisimilitude One can't go lower.
19:39 asciilifeform 'hey my name is 9'
19:39 signpost verisimilitude: see, ya finally macroexpanded natural, at least.
19:39 asciilifeform 'why good evening, mr. _ '
19:39 verisimilitude Anything undesirable shouldn't be allowed, by construction.
19:39 signpost oughta be more beatings for bare assertion, as though the foundation is democracy and grunt of a vote is sufficient.
19:39 verisimilitude Care for an example?
19:39 signpost verisimilitude: nonsense, to whom
19:40 signpost this is just lazy belief that democracy is foundational, rather than a construction.
19:40 verisimilitude Democracy sucks.
19:40 signpost we agree.
19:41 verisimilitude We're not voting on this; asciilifeform clearly is the most important person regarding Pest, but I don't find it wise to enforce such a queer requirement.
19:41 verisimilitude Again and rephrased, I find it important to remove the ability to express things I dislike, in systems I design.
19:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: asciilifeform very much open to argument re knobs in spec, hence why always prods folx 'plz comment'
19:42 verisimilitude I've not yet been able to read the latest revision, but would enjoy having something valuable to comment.
19:42 asciilifeform i.e. trying to encourage folx to develop their heads, rather than nod along as in ye olde house of mp
19:42 d4 asciilifeform: you should have pointed me here instead... don't mind at my lazyness, I'm tired.
19:42 verisimilitude I recall what asciilifeform asked me, now.
19:43 signpost d4: one has to mind at it.
19:43 signpost if one's to have "public matters", i.e. men thinking together rather than in silos.
19:43 asciilifeform d4: i rec to read whole thing if you can find 1h or so. highly doubt you'll be entirely bored.
19:44 signpost it's impersonal even, the objection that restrictions which can be lower ought is defensible.
19:44 signpost oughta defend it.
19:44 * signpost still firmly a republican, and this is what it means.
19:44 d4 I read the first two revision. I will find the time, asciilifeform.
19:45 asciilifeform d4: plz dun hesitate to write in w/ errata, comments, qs
19:46 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-02#1070818 Yes.
19:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-02 23:32:35 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-31#1070708 << if he'd bitten it from vodka (as was asciilifeform's orig. expectation) or old age, would read differently ?
19:47 signpost verisimilitude: why so? in all three cases, nature ate a mortal.
19:47 verisimilitude The point is that it was interesting to read about how Bitcoin and TMSR was going to destroy the USG, only for Neptune to decide against that.
19:47 verisimilitude Once the man behind an idea like that dies, the idea looks even sillier.
19:48 signpost marx died, didn't seem to stop the wind from the sails. on the contrary.
19:49 verisimilitude Well, at least Communism has a large death toll. I'm not aware of anyone killed by TMSR.
19:50 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073888 My website linking is perhaps similar to this described setup. Also, take a look at this, whaack: https://search.marginalia.nu
19:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:48:54 whaack: i was thinking of a blog search engine, where blogs are organized into a tree structure, where each blog is a node, and one's own blog starts as the root node. each blog has a blogroll (ideally w/ standard format) , and each link in the blogroll represents a child node, the search engine starts at your own blog, and then goes down the tree , prioritizing results closer to your blogroll
19:51 signpost verisimilitude: the point you glossed over is marx having died before he saw any of it.
19:52 * signpost expects he will be dead before crypto-republicanism lives too, or at best being very old.
19:52 verisimilitude That's fair enough, but excuse me for not believing TMSR will amount to anything by now.
19:52 asciilifeform verisimilitude: linked prev
19:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-06 12:32:54 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in wholly unrelated finds.
19:52 signpost verisimilitude: there is no TMSR now; how can it be otherwise.
19:52 verisimilitude I recognized it for what it was, and am glad I didn't embed myself into it deeply enough to move countries, or something else.
19:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the folx who moved dun seem to regret, fwiw
19:53 signpost neither do the folks who spent time in a space more philosophicall coherent than where they fell out of their mothers.
19:54 verisimilitude I'm to believe thou hadst considered moving, and am glad to have chosen otherwise, right, asciilifeform?
19:54 signpost *philosophically
19:54 signpost verisimilitude: and I'll remind you as I said above, that living itself is a pointless enterprise. so what?
19:54 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'd defo still move if found a spare 1e7$ in sofa cushions lol
19:55 verisimilitude So what indeed, signpost. Be there anything else to write, now?
19:57 signpost one's failures informing the present day wastes nothing.
19:57 verisimilitude I'm curious; was Mircea Popescu fluent in Latin?
19:58 thimbronion I find this theme of "oh they moved countries and then mp died" thing hilarious. O shit I'm living in paradise, what nao!?!! As if anyone expected mp to stay there anyway.
19:58 verisimilitude I misread the situation, apparently.
19:58 * signpost figured mp would die "young" fwiw. seen the party til you puke spiral many times.
19:59 signpost and what great benefit I have to both have experienced TMSR, and understood how it failed.
19:59 signpost wasted nothing at all.
19:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i dun recall anyone moving so could moar easily visit mp et al. BingoBoingo moved to set up piz in uy; iirc whaack moved because likes beaches
20:04 verisimilitude I now recall what I wanted to discuss more.
20:05 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073772 This is the realization I've also made, but I'm more motivated by not allowing the implementation language to have any influence on the program's semantics, jonsykkel.
20:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 11:53:55 jonsykkel: imo makes perfect sense in corectly architected ancient greek software to have configuration == modify source (most of the time only topmost layers of code pyramid need to be touched)
20:06 verisimilitude I yearn to make a particular program of mine as brief as possible, so that I can justify this approach, and avoid providing any real interfaces for modifications.
20:07 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073788 The homosexual tendencies of Greeks apparently have been grossly exaggerated, jonsykkel, so don't be so certain about that.
20:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:38:50 dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 11:23:14 jonsykkel: personal forks of small simple spermanent softwares (suckless style) is how the ancient greeks would compute if they had computers
20:08 verisimilitude The Suckless idiots hate complicated software just long enough to stop at the C language and UNIX. If they truly valued what they claim to value, they'd write truly simple software.
20:09 signpost bwahaha
20:10 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073786 I was subscribed to their mailing list for a time, and got to watch them discuss colours. The cols program, to columnate output, is a shining example of the ``UNIX philosophy'' but lo, it can't handle colour codes without explicit support; they decided colours were bloat, to solve this problem.
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:38:49 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 << this is imho fundamentally correct. however must observe that the 'suckless' approach doesn't actually generalize, because 'unix philosophy' is actually braindamaged: proggies other than simple text stream cmdline items dun actually compose meaningfully
20:10 asciilifeform verisimilitude: prolly you noticed, but there's a rather conspicuous lack of ~with what~ to write simple softs.
20:11 verisimilitude I like mine so far, but it's not for everything.
20:11 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i like mine also, say, but ditto
20:12 asciilifeform there's no magical cure for ~50y of idjit iron/os.
20:12 verisimilitude There's, but we don't have access to nuclear weapons or enough bullets.
20:13 asciilifeform eh that's only half a cure
20:13 asciilifeform somebody still has to bake correct items.
20:13 thimbronion asciilifeform: curious about the provenance of the term "station" in the spec - just obvious 2-way radio analogy, or has the term been used before in a p2p context?
20:14 signpost and the victors would have to burn weeds in their own heads for generations.
20:14 verisimilitude My proposal to build a better society and punish these idiots for harming computing so badly, such as, say, by burying them to their necks in an ant mound, likely wouldn't be well-received, either.
20:14 signpost without this revolutionaries unconsciously recreate the forms with which they're familiar.
20:14 asciilifeform thimbronion: whole thing conceived with 'radio mindset'
20:14 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-14 14:51:52 asciilifeform: over e.g. shortwave, yes, we'll 'errythign to erryone', but there it doesn't cost nearly so much given that there's a single stream.
20:14 signpost USSR had another tsar in what, 50yrs?
20:14 signpost 25?
20:15 asciilifeform signpost: immed.
20:15 signpost probably so, yeah.
20:15 asciilifeform orcs never departed from 'eastern despotism' (in 'civ1' terminology)
20:16 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073793 << this feature was attempted in Windows PowerShell.
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:49:00 jonsykkel: unix seems to be missing some "types of pipe". like u have in back of a rack diffrent types of wires depending on wat is transmitted connecting stuff
20:16 asciilifeform (nor ever particularly wanted to)
20:16 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074056 I call these insidious optimizations, signpost.
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:14:31 signpost: without this revolutionaries unconsciously recreate the forms with which they're familiar.
20:17 signpost when the "our democracies" fail, derps will still have the reddit upvoats in the void where a soul should be.
20:17 signpost and reddit will reincarnate.
20:17 asciilifeform verisimilitude: historically revolutionaries dun even ~try~ to 'depart from familiar forms'. typically simply 'old thing, but with us in driver seat'
20:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:40:45 asciilifeform: ( recall ? 'let's bake usg.dns all over again' etc )
20:18 asciilifeform not even necessarily a bad thing, elites have finite useful life & their periodic replacement can reboot a dying civ
20:18 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074063 << according to Carroll Quigley, the root of Oriental Despotism lies in the mass-inability to distinguish between the concept of "society" and "government."
20:18 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:15:43 asciilifeform: orcs never departed from 'eastern despotism' (in 'civ1' terminology)
20:19 signpost gregory5: how do you distinguish them?
20:19 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074071 This makes them less human in some ways.
20:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:17:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: historically revolutionaries dun even ~try~ to 'depart from familiar forms'. typically simply 'old thing, but with us in driver seat'
20:20 asciilifeform gregory5: asciilifeform was not able to stomach quigley, on acct. of critical mass of howlers in text, so cannot comment in detail
20:20 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:15:36 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i picked up quigley and was not impressed. much dead forest, very little said.
20:20 signpost asciilifeform: quite likely this wheel is all humans can do, and quite good to let it turn.
20:20 asciilifeform gregory5: however, strikes as nonsensical imho, in e.g. ru very much existed a concept of (village-sized) 'society' quite distinct from ruling vertical
20:20 verisimilitude The UNIX pipe is neither original nor particularly useful. It's making a human centipede with programs, and it's a particularly stupid incarnation of the mathematical idea.
20:20 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074067 << quite descriptive.
20:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:16:46 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074056 I call these insidious optimizations, signpost.
20:20 verisimilitude I appreciate it, signpost.
20:21 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074076 << I might not be the best at doing so personally.
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:19:32 signpost: gregory5: how do you distinguish them?
20:21 verisimilitude Recognizing these was a particularly nice realization for me.
20:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074081 << likely imho.
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:20:01 signpost: asciilifeform: quite likely this wheel is all humans can do, and quite good to let it turn.
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-10 08:17:03 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-09#1071796 << revolutions (or simply in older terminology 'emperor lost the mandate of heaven') are a natural process. and incidentally asciilifeform does not share yarvin's worship of stability for the sake of stability (a la ancient egypt. no thx)
20:21 signpost gregory5: abandoning the coyness where one can make reference to ideas which drive their thinking but *not* elaborate their implications is healhty, try.
20:22 verisimilitude I've only written one other entry in the set, so far.
20:22 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074083 << then how come the idea caught on as wildfire at its inception by Doug McIlroy among thousands of classically trained scientists and mathematicians?
20:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:20:46 verisimilitude: The UNIX pipe is neither original nor particularly useful. It's making a human centipede with programs, and it's a particularly stupid incarnation of the mathematical idea.
20:22 asciilifeform gregory5: it was their 1 and only idea, as such
20:22 asciilifeform 'all you have is a hammer, let's hammer screws' etc
20:23 verisimilitude I wasn't there, but I've seen plenty of examples of dipshits getting excited over nonsense.
20:23 verisimilitude Look at Reddit.
20:23 signpost god damn, if that isn't descriptive of vast swaths of human history.
20:24 * signpost must bbl
20:24 asciilifeform this is what happens when folx very poor in synthesis somehow get hold of an idea
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:37:17 asciilifeform: simply, some people simply collect crapola and stack it up. much smaller number is able to synthesise, i.e. form new idea.
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:38:16 asciilifeform: the 'stackers' do the bulk of the publishing in a dying culture. they always try to cut off their intellectual betters (folx able to synthesise) from whatever 'official' channels. when cultural death -- this succeeds.
20:24 asciilifeform 'unix philosophy'(tm) consists of just the pipe.
20:24 verisimilitude Have an old joke I wrote:
20:24 verisimilitude Surely we're familiar with the common sayings about the quality of code written by scientists of other fields? Dennis Ritchie was originally a physicist.
20:24 verisimilitude That explains some things, doesn't it?
20:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: rms was a defrocked physics student, fwiw these are a dime a dozen in early (and even current) world of shitware
20:26 asciilifeform ( for that matter 'properly ordained' physics folx atm aint much to write home about )
20:26 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-08-04 asciilifeform: ditto folks who grew up with 'climatocalypse' and 'string theory' as 'physics'
20:26 verisimilitude RMS can have a pass, I think.
20:26 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074093 << Quigley's view was something along the lines of: Western people regard society as a web of human relationships, and government as a consequence of society.
20:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:21:52 signpost: gregory5: abandoning the coyness where one can make reference to ideas which drive their thinking but *not* elaborate their implications is healhty, try.
20:27 asciilifeform gregory5: imho this pov dooms author to nonsense right off the bat. the correct model is the 'stationary bandit' one of j.c.scott.
20:27 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-01-30 asciilifeform: as described in the mega-super book, 'the art of not being governed' (j.c.scott)
20:28 asciilifeform i.e. government is a robber band which decides to settle in a given geography and succeeds (for whatever interval) in driving off competing marauders.
20:29 asciilifeform all other supposed details being merely 'lipstick on pig'
20:29 gregory5 signpost: owing to the unusual conditions of my upbringing, and college-years, I am hesitant to test this hypothesis using my own experiences.
20:30 verisimilitude All property is usurpation, asciilifeform.
20:30 asciilifeform well from that pov all living things usurpers, even plankton
20:30 verisimilitude The libertarion ``taxation is theft'' is a red herring that purposefully doesn't go far enough.
20:31 verisimilitude ``The government is stealing from me, bastards! Why yes, I'll pay rent, job-creator.''
20:31 verisimilitude Man either takes from nature or other men.
20:31 asciilifeform verisimilitude: this pov is very typical 'anglo' affliction, yes
20:31 verisimilitude Thus, when a man can successfully steal, that makes it his.
20:32 asciilifeform at any rate some folx are accomplishes specialists in theft, these 'govern'
20:32 asciilifeform *accomplished
20:33 asciilifeform and see also.
20:33 * asciilifeform must bbl: teatime
20:33 verisimilitude William the Conqueror drew new property lines in Britannia; thus, if someone successfully does it again, they would be just as legitimate.
20:33 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074098 << are there any viral abstractions comparable to the pipe from other systems, say, TOPS-20, Cedar, Apollo, or the Lisp Machine, which you can think of?
20:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:22:52 asciilifeform: 'all you have is a hammer, let's hammer screws' etc
20:33 verisimilitude With Lisp, we have real function calls and data passing.
20:34 verisimilitude Instead of shitting a serialized list into another's mouth, a Lisp function just hands over the list.
20:35 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074136 << that is a step backward in some ways. copy-on-write is a valuable abstraction.
20:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:34:50 verisimilitude: Instead of shitting a serialized list into another's mouth, a Lisp function just hands over the list.
20:36 verisimilitude It's also what leads to the Linux kernels OOM nonsense.
20:36 verisimilitude Recently, I've been thinking about what a man said years ago, about how a VHS tape can play with injuries, but a DVD skips horribly.
20:36 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074118 << that is simply a more sardonic and pessimistic re-phrasing of Plinio Correa de Oliveira's theory of governmental origination.
20:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:28:47 asciilifeform: i.e. government is a robber band which decides to settle in a given geography and succeeds (for whatever interval) in driving off competing marauders.
20:36 verisimilitude This is because the more complex DVD mechanism has compression, which can result in total failure rather easily.
20:40 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074135 << however, I do like ALGOL's idea of pre-allocating the return-variable, and then writing to it as a normal variable, as opposed to the normal use of "return."
20:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:33:42 verisimilitude: With Lisp, we have real function calls and data passing.
20:41 gregory5 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how do you view the fact that static scoping was developed within ALGOL before being adopted by LISP? was this a case of ALGOL's designers demonstrating greater intelligence? was LISP's use dynamic scoping a tragic oversight?
20:43 verisimilitude APL also does that.
20:43 verisimilitude Other people can have good ideas, gregory5.
20:44 thimbronion asciilifeform: wrt opposability, how could you prove you are not the author a given message?
20:46 PeterL thimbronion: if it was signed using somebody else's private key
20:46 thimbronion PeterL: bonehead question: how can you prove you *don't have* the private key?
20:47 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074128 << even if this were true, there would be competition between governors to reduce their own graft, because that is how a given governor might distinguish himself from others.
20:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:32:05 asciilifeform: at any rate some folx are accomplishes specialists in theft, these 'govern'
20:47 PeterL presumably people keep their keys secret?
20:48 PeterL I guess you just have to take my word that I didn't steal the key first?
20:49 thimbronion PeterL: at a very basic level I can't see you can prove don't have any given bitstring somewhere.
20:49 gregory5 asciilifeform: to defend your theory, you would need to affirm Class Realim: the idea that all elites, regardless of culture/religion/locale, are secretly allied with, and intimate with each other.
20:49 gregory5 * Class Realism
20:51 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 By the by, I've a different view on how to write such ``ancient Greek programs'', or perhaps ``ancient Roman programs'', that I expect to have presentable as an article by this month's end.
20:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 12:29:44 jonsykkel: multigb ffturds 100%cancer agreed, unrelated to point im trying to make tho. maybe following mspaint diagram can help illustrate distinction im talking about http://zzz.st/up/m6y5UhDa/soft.png
20:53 thimbronion PeterL: I suppose you could prove it via a witch trial: produce the key or die, and if you die, you didn't have it.
20:54 PeterL thimbronion: of course there is some limit to the security of digital signatures, but unless you can show somehow that I accessed and made a copy of the key, it is assumed that only the owner of the key is able to sign with it
20:54 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074159 << perhaps you can take inspiration from this example: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Fizz-Buzz-from-Outer-Space
20:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:51:39 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 By the by, I've a different view on how to write such ``ancient Greek programs'', or perhaps ``ancient Roman programs'', that I expect to have presentable as an article by this month's end.
20:59 verisimilitude I'll be sharing true wisdom here, gregory5.
21:01 verisimilitude Still, I could use Fizzbuzz in another article, perhaps as my third example.
21:03 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074149 << recall, it's a symmetric key, either half of the peering can 'sign' with it
21:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:44:10 thimbronion: asciilifeform: wrt opposability, how could you prove you are not the author a given message?
21:04 asciilifeform ( there are no public/private keys in pestism )
21:04 thimbronion asciilifeform: I know there is no pubkey crypto in pest. My question has to do with the concept of opposability.
21:04 PeterL I was talking more generally about how you get an opposable signature
21:04 asciilifeform thimbronion: well, suppose pest were built on rsa.
21:05 verisimilitude To prove no one knows something, we need merely first implant some machinery in the brain of all humans. The rest is clear afterwards.
21:05 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074116 << I wonder how this analysis differs from previous idealizations of the Native Americans, the Celts, and the Pacific Islanders as the ideal non-coercive society.
21:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:27:33 asciilifeform: gregory5: imho this pov dooms author to nonsense right off the bat. the correct model is the 'stationary bandit' one of j.c.scott.
21:05 asciilifeform PeterL: then, when you speak, would generate a massive pile of 'opposable' msgs, i.e. someone with the public key can demonstrate (possib. to your disadvantage) that it was almost certainly you who wrote'em
21:06 verisimilitude Well, ``the brains of all humans'' or ``the brain of every human''.
21:06 thimbronion asciilifeform: I think we can leave pest out of it. I realize this is a little autistic - but how can you prove you *don't* have any given private key?
21:06 verisimilitude I've already explained, thimbronion.
21:06 gregory5 Kevin Flanagan proves that Libertarianism comes from the Celts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Cuko-9w7c
21:07 PeterL there is the minute possibility that somebody generated the same key as you, but the probability is so vanishingly small as to be ignored
21:07 asciilifeform PeterL: ( whereas any pest peer of thimbronion's can trivially generate a log 'proving' that ' thimbronion : let's go shoot kennedy tonight ' -- proving 0 )
21:09 asciilifeform thimbronion: naturally cannot. q aint re proving that you dun have the key ( this is quite impossible ) but whether 'x heard y say z' can be proven to the satisfaction of a third party with only cooperation of x
21:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-10 14:27:00 asciilifeform: ( how wouldja prove that you've coughed up yer last coin? there's a reason dpr aint getting out )
21:09 asciilifeform this is the scenario referred to e.g. here.
21:10 asciilifeform let's outline the field basics, because apparently not universally known
21:10 PeterL so as long as the encryption function is not broken, if something is signed then it is legally the owner of the signature that signed it
21:11 PeterL asciilifeform can prolly explain better than me, I'll sit and listen now
21:11 verisimilitude That's a nice pre-condition.
21:11 asciilifeform all totalitarian shitholes (currently covering entire landmass of planet3) employ over9000 professional provocateurs. the latter are typically 'paid piecework', i.e. for 'sufficiently authentic' hits; and have strong incentive to fudge.
21:12 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074190 << scary.
21:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 16:11:24 asciilifeform: all totalitarian shitholes (currently covering entire landmass of planet3) employ over9000 professional provocateurs. the latter are typically 'paid piecework', i.e. for 'sufficiently authentic' hits; and have strong incentive to fudge.
21:12 asciilifeform to make for a minimal standard of 'passing laugh test' (even in shitholes w/out juries or similar), filters are imposed by the management. which is why these fine folx ~always~ try to get $you outta net chat where 'anyone could have said this' and into a ~physical room~ where they have camera/microphone going
21:12 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-25 asciilifeform: has at this point lost count of the 'fine folx' who offered him 'sure profitz' involving white powders/militias/deathrays across-the-border/across-the-ocean/in-shangri-la/in-shiticonvalley etc etc
21:13 asciilifeform a e.g. chat where erry ln is rsa-signed (i.e. 'opposably') makes the stoolie's work over9000x easier, in this respect.
21:14 thimbronion asciilifeform: what is something that *is* opposable given that it is impossible to prove the lack of a private key?
21:14 * asciilifeform recalls a thrd where in fact was mp explaining this to a skeptical asciilifeform . but can't atm dig up
21:14 gregory5 my introduction to the subject of provocateurs came from videos regarding the G20 protests.
21:15 gregory5 however, the idea of provocateurs as a basic technique of governance is still mind-boggling.
21:15 PeterL thimbronion: imagine you pgp sign contract, don't do your part, I drag you in front of judge "look, this is what he said he would do"
21:16 asciilifeform thimbronion: think of it this way -- not even deepest shithole simply randomly picks folx off the street 'to try as traitors'. normally there is a selection criterion, imposed (not by 'public', but by management, to make the work actually count towards propping up the regime; which plucking randoms off street dun do)
21:16 asciilifeform PeterL: yer still thinking from a 'contracts' pov, which is the wrong model here.
21:16 asciilifeform it aint about proofs in anyffin you think of as a court
21:17 asciilifeform rather, is about whether $kgb meatpuppet who picked you up in fact can show ~to his management~ that he 'did a work'
21:17 asciilifeform rather than put whatever bits on yer hdd
21:18 PeterL asciilifeform: I was just trying to think of a time when you would want an opposable statement
21:19 asciilifeform if he cannot work this 'ratchet', where 'this is plausibly words of mr.x' ~in front of his boss~, he is then effectively plucking victims at random, which does not advance his cause.
21:19 asciilifeform PeterL: at many times you ~do~ want.
21:19 asciilifeform !q !!deed
21:19 dulapbot asciilifeform: my valid commands are: src, uptime, seen-anywhere, help, s, version, seen
21:19 asciilifeform !q s !!deed
21:19 dulapbot No results found for "!!deed" in #asciilifeform
21:19 asciilifeform lol bug!
21:19 asciilifeform anyways plenty of examples. vpatches.
21:20 asciilifeform quite often one goes to great lengths to bake an opposable sig. is what pgp is largely about.
21:20 asciilifeform but 'erry ln you type to a stranger in a chat' aint 1 of'em
21:21 asciilifeform e.g. asciilifeform put yrs of sweat towards a tool largely for baking opposable sigs.
21:21 verisimilitude I wonder if Roman cryptography featured anything such as this.
21:22 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik roman crypto topped out at caesar's substitution cipher
21:22 verisimilitude Yes; I'll need to research it.
21:22 asciilifeform verisimilitude: research seals, the pertinent subj, rather.
21:22 verisimilitude I've read that, yes.
21:23 asciilifeform so at any rate, 'dun want opposable sigs on erry fart in public' is not about judges, juries, contracts.
21:24 PeterL crypto can be much simpler if your enemy does not have computers to help break your codes
21:24 asciilifeform is rather about whether to unnecessarily make work of seekritpolice over9000x easier. which, when easily avoided, avoid.
21:24 asciilifeform (easier & moar effective)
21:24 asciilifeform PeterL: pre-comp. crypto was by and large a joke.
21:24 asciilifeform for that matter current crypto is still for most part a joak
21:25 verisimilitude I can see it now.
21:25 verisimilitude ``Pre-quantum computers, crypto was by and large a joke.''
21:25 verisimilitude ``Pre-$whatever, crypto was by and large a joke.''
21:25 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it's still a joke, for fundamental reason
21:25 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-02-05 asciilifeform: there is no 'provably hard' ~anything~ available, the WHOLE MOTHERFUCKING FIELD is, as far as the eye can see, pseudomathematical turdmeistery
21:26 verisimilitude Only the one-time pad stands out, right?
21:26 asciilifeform actual crypto is otp.
21:26 asciilifeform errything else is a 'bank that enemy hasn't found pill'
21:26 verisimilitude It's amazing how that's, what, nearly two hundred years old by now?
21:27 * asciilifeform considers otp quite simple to bolt onto e.g. pest.
21:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: possibly older. earliest recorded description is in late 19th
21:28 asciilifeform of course the single-bit variant is ancient.
21:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-10 15:45:14 asciilifeform: tldr -- if you anticipate having something to say to folx from reich dungeon, agree on magick words in advance.
21:28 verisimilitude For these and other reasons, I've never been too interested in writing networked programs. The adversarial issues prevent them from being nice and crystalline to me.
21:28 thimbronion asciilifeform: ok so a sig by bob being opposable doesn't mean alice can absolutely deny generating the sig. It means kgb can pick up bob, force him to cough up his private key, and associate him with all his publicly available signed docs.
21:28 asciilifeform thimbronion: it means that if bob is a provocateur, he cannot demonstrate to his employer that alice said $x.
21:29 asciilifeform bob could have just as easily rearranged the bits on disk purportedly found in alice's cunt to 'alice: x'
21:29 asciilifeform handler knows this, and will pay him 5 cents for alice instead of 50$.
21:29 asciilifeform because he can and does bring in 9000 alices / week
21:29 asciilifeform (to this standard of quality)
21:31 asciilifeform imho pretty clear diff.
21:33 asciilifeform thimbronion: observe that if yer using opposable sigs, no one needs to wire you to the mains and get priv key to 'associate you with what said', is by design trivial once you have the pubkey and the 'what said'
21:33 asciilifeform this is appropriate in some situations (vpatch), and not in others (the electrical equiv. of 'conversation on crowded train with stranger'), is all
21:34 whaack http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074009 <-- ty for the link, didn't see the previous one, ty also asciilifeform, looks awesome
21:34 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-18 19:50:12 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073888 My website linking is perhaps similar to this described setup. Also, take a look at this, whaack: https://search.marginalia.nu
21:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:48:54 whaack: i was thinking of a blog search engine, where blogs are organized into a tree structure, where each blog is a node, and one's own blog starts as the root node. each blog has a blogroll (ideally w/ standard format) , and each link in the blogroll represents a child node, the search engine starts at your own blog, and then goes down the tree , prioritizing results closer to your blogroll
21:36 * asciilifeform must bbl
21:49 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074247 << in other words, what one wants from an anti-reich pov is to maintain 'lemon market' in 'alices', in econ terminology.
21:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 16:29:48 asciilifeform: because he can and does bring in 9000 alices / week
21:49 * asciilifeform genuinely bbl
21:52 thimbronion asciilifeform: I think I'm making some progress. Opposability is not a cryptographic term, but in fact a legal term, and appears to be used predominantly in French law.
21:54 thimbronion For the record this is a full definition that I cannot find in English: https://droit-finances.commentcamarche.com/faq/23889-opposabilite-definition
22:01 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074040 << not knowledgeable enuf on subject of homosexuality to give proper reply, maybe c/unix not ideal platform but in the end u must use some editor, terminal, os, cpu and so on. only available alternatives are "make best of it", or "not use computer"
22:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:07:32 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073788 The homosexual tendencies of Greeks apparently have been grossly exaggerated, jonsykkel, so don't be so certain about that.
22:02 jonsykkel maybe pipe sux, idk, havnt thought about it enuf. but is fastest way i know of to make computer do x, in the restricted domain of problems that can be solved with program human centipedes. maybe its possible to solve this restriction by generalizing the concept properly. doing serial (y (x)) in lisp is not analogous to setting up a parallel human centipede operation x | y
22:02 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074159 << looking 4wd to reading
22:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 15:51:39 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073779 By the by, I've a different view on how to write such ``ancient Greek programs'', or perhaps ``ancient Roman programs'', that I expect to have presentable as an article by this month's end.
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
23:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074259 << is prolly where mp lifted it. anglo cryptographers seem to use 'non-deniable' which imho ugh
23:06 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 16:52:33 thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think I'm making some progress. Opposability is not a cryptographic term, but in fact a legal term, and appears to be used predominantly in French law.
23:08 PeterL opposability is the better term because it defines what it is, rather than trying to define what it is not
~ 15 minutes ~
23:23 asciilifeform aaha
23:24 asciilifeform 'horseless carriage'
23:34 asciilifeform observe that in spec said ''repudiatable' (i.e. non-opposable)', maybe 1st part would suffice
23:35 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074263 << the problem is what happens in practice to the problems ~not~ solvable w/ this hammer.
23:35 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 17:02:02 jonsykkel: maybe pipe sux, idk, havnt thought about it enuf. but is fastest way i know of to make computer do x, in the restricted domain of problems that can be solved with program human centipedes. maybe its possible to solve this restriction by generalizing the concept properly. doing serial (y (x)) in lisp is not analogous to setting up a parallel human centipede operation x | y
23:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1074242 << the nice thing about occasionally attacking a concrete problem is that can sometimes actually succeed. e.g. we're a good 90+% of the way towards getting the hell outta irc-on-one-box with the attendant lulz thereof
23:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 16:28:13 verisimilitude: For these and other reasons, I've never been too interested in writing networked programs. The adversarial issues prevent them from being nice and crystalline to me.
23:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-11 18:34:08 asciilifeform: and in particular, the next time the dc folx trip over the main breaker like in dec. of '20, pestnet is what'll be standing and dulapnet awol
23:44 asciilifeform ( and observe that we didn't need a million $ cluster or whateverthefuck googletardation, for it )
23:44 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
23:46 asciilifeform p2pism on entirely existing irons worx a++. 'if you work it.'
23:46 asciilifeform the 0xfb algo even oughta cut through NATs transparently for that matter.
23:50 asciilifeform ( and we haven't even touched the implications of practically impossible to ddos hosting etc. )
23:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
23:51 asciilifeform y'know, the thing morons pay $bils to 'cloudflare' and other charlatans for
23:51 asciilifeform canhaz for ~0$, turns out
23:52 asciilifeform simply suffices to 'stop thinking like reich' and let go of the centralism.
23:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:53:56 asciilifeform: arguably 'search sucks'(tm) because folx insist on copying approach of google et al, which is exact opposite of Right Thing in over900 ways
23:55 asciilifeform ( concrete illustration of failure -- the folx who were 'inventing electronic cash' in '90s. couldn't let go of the 'must have master server' thing despite in fact having all the req'd parts to bake bitcoin.
23:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-10-21 12:07:19 asciilifeform: punkman: dunno whether you followed the 'electronic cash' subject pre-bitcoin, but it was replete with idiocies involving 'untamperable modules' etc
23:55 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-05 14:10:22 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 100% of the mechanical pieces existed in '90s (chaum et all), the item that made present-day bitcoinism possible was specifically the longest-chain hash work mechanism
23:56 asciilifeform )
23:57 asciilifeform even w/ a halfbaked proto pestron, the ~current~ pestnet is moar reliable already than any net-facing system on planet3.
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