Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-01-15 | 2022-01-17 →
03:44 asciilifeform ACHTUNG thimbronion , jonsykkel , et al : reworked section 4 with massively simplified algorithm. q's/comments invited.
03:45 asciilifeform if implemented correctly, oughta perma-solve all dedupe problems nao & 4evah.
03:47 * asciilifeform will give folx time to comment, then cut a 0xFB patch some time tomorrow evening.
03:49 jonsykkel cool, will read after sleep
~ 49 minutes ~
04:38 * asciilifeform simplified further.
~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~
05:46 scoopbot New post on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: A Review of ``Softword: Provenance for the Word 'Software''' and Other Work by Paul Niquette
~ 36 minutes ~
06:23 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-15#1073310 << I am going to wait for the new spec. before finalizing my station, hope you don't mind.
06:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-15 22:47:09 asciilifeform: will give folx time to comment, then cut a 0xFB patch some time tomorrow evening.
06:26 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073313 << I read that book a few months ago. the writing style was very strange.
06:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 00:46:36 scoopbot: New post on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: A Review of ``Softword: Provenance for the Word 'Software''' and Other Work by Paul Niquette
06:28 gregory5 {by calling ``bugs'' in software ``flaws''} << I do this as well, "verisimilitude," but I also use the word "error."
06:29 gregory5 some programmers will object, saying that "error" implies the occurrence of a flaw (at run-time), not the flaw itself.
06:29 gregory5 however, "error" does not have that connotation in philosophy and theology.
06:36 gregory5 http://niquette.com/books/101words/be.htm << Niquette is a proponent of "E Prime."
06:39 gregory5 the man's style, and way of thinking, is highly reminiscent of other Catholic intellectuals which I have met.
06:40 gregory5 white Americans who are well-read in English, but do not have the English heritage.
~ 4 hours 6 minutes ~
10:46 mats asciilifeform: i dunno, good questions
10:47 mats https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.05511.pdf ethereum shenanigans
~ 5 hours 37 minutes ~
16:24 asciilifeform mats: gnarly. asciilifeform doesn't have a sufficiently detailed grasp of that particular shitcoin to 100% grasp on 1st pass
16:24 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073314 << which version of spec do you intend to wait for the implementation for ?
16:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 01:23:25 gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-15#1073310 << I am going to wait for the new spec. before finalizing my station, hope you don't mind.
16:26 asciilifeform gregory5: for instance asciilifeform is cleaning up 0xfb. but even after vpatch, will need to wait for folx to fix the coad
16:26 * asciilifeform sadly presently hasn't the time to do w/ own hands the latter
16:27 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073316 << was a++, in fact 1 ch. has been linked from asciilifeform's www for many yrs.
16:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 01:26:13 gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073313 << I read that book a few months ago. the writing style was very strange.
16:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073322 << dunno, imho there was nuffin obv. 'aquinasistic' about it
16:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 01:39:16 gregory5: the man's style, and way of thinking, is highly reminiscent of other Catholic intellectuals which I have met.
16:29 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
16:29 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $43435.76
16:29 asciilifeform !w poll
16:29 watchglass Polling 14 nodes...
16:29 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.021s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.059s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.131s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:29 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:29 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=718998 (Operator: whaack)
16:29 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.143s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.262s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.309s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718910
16:29 watchglass 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.338s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718910
16:29 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.583s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998
16:29 watchglass 75.106.222.93:8333 : Alive: (0.452s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718998
16:30 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
16:31 asciilifeform mats: reread your meth fishwrap link, seems that the authors blame impurities. but unsurprisingly didn't propose the simple solution of 'legalize'(tm)(r) where 100% pure product simply sold in shops otc for pennies.
16:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-29 22:01:33 mats: on meth, https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174
16:34 asciilifeform 'warriors on drugs' simply not interested in even admitting that folx take'em for reasons which often make sense, i.e. where life in usaschwitz in fact suxx palpably less on the dope than off
16:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-15 16:05:27 asciilifeform: the 'permanently changed' thing may even be that the eater (an overworked 'blue collar') simply realizes that 'yes it is possible to be awake'
16:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-15 16:07:52 signpost: pleb gets knocked from two jobs to three to stay alive, finds crank
16:35 asciilifeform in ru, half dozen rulers historically (most recently gorby) tried to clamp down on vodka, w/ similar results
16:36 asciilifeform life in 'nigeria with snow' unendurable for over9000 folx w/out subj...
16:39 asciilifeform mats: observe also that ~0 whine pieces in fishwraps re wallstreet folx and their (generally pure, being obtained via Official channels) meth etc
16:40 asciilifeform cuz these aint 'hearing voices' or tortured in dungeons pointlessly for the entertainment of 'dogooders'
16:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-15 13:20:12 mats: mentally,” Jobe said. “Before, we didn’t keep anybody more than nine months. Now we’re running up to 14 months, because it’s not until six or nine months that we finally find out who we got.” Some can’t remember their life before jail. “It’s not unusual for them to ask what they were found guilty of and sentenced to,” she said.
16:42 asciilifeform nasdaq floor monkey wanting to be awake to do his work or party after is a++ Officially. but welder or trucker, ohnoez, 'addict', 'how do we cure'
16:43 asciilifeform dopaminergics dun produce physical 'withdrawal' in the style of opium. the 'withdrawal' is simply 'normal life', which for over9000 folx simply sux.
16:49 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073329 << I am using my own Java code.
16:49 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 11:26:00 asciilifeform: gregory5: for instance asciilifeform is cleaning up 0xfb. but even after vpatch, will need to wait for folx to fix the coad
16:51 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073331 << that was how I heard of the book, obviously.
16:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 11:27:20 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073316 << was a++, in fact 1 ch. has been linked from asciilifeform's www for many yrs.
16:53 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073333 << he has that native-but-not-native way of writing. hard to describe.
16:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 11:28:09 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073322 << dunno, imho there was nuffin obv. 'aquinasistic' about it
16:53 gregory5 http://niquette.com/books/101words/toc.htm << this is also sort of Thomistic.
16:55 gregory5 willing to release the tarball of my code, if people don't make fun of me for using Java.
16:59 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073360 << if the allegations about Wall Street and illicit drugs are true, the implications are quite horrifying, more than at first glance.
16:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 11:39:07 asciilifeform: mats: observe also that ~0 whine pieces in fishwraps re wallstreet folx and their (generally pure, being obtained via Official channels) meth etc
16:59 gregory5 likewise with similar allegations which I have heard about the Ivy League universities.
17:06 jonsykkel readed section 4 good stuf. intake algo is now quite diffrent to what i ended up with to make everything work, gonna have to put changes in program before can give very meaningful comments. maybe most significant diff is that i added a third buffer for messages that dont fit anywhere in chain, where they sit and wait a sec or so for getdata response, to avoid chain breaking if packets are dropped
17:06 jonsykkel or reordered, or if in process of catching up cuz station was turned off etc. maybe this is outside scope of spec anyway, dunno
~ 30 minutes ~
17:37 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073372 << lol! but wainot ( asciilifeform promises not to make fun of even cobol implementation, if such appears )
17:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 11:55:07 gregory5: willing to release the tarball of my code, if people don't make fun of me for using Java.
17:37 asciilifeform gregory5: asciilifeform doesn't keep a javatron around and likely will not be able to test tho
17:38 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073376 << actually asciilifeform is writing even nao a revised-again sect4 where third, 'output buffer', entirely as you described
17:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 12:06:07 jonsykkel: readed section 4 good stuf. intake algo is now quite diffrent to what i ended up with to make everything work, gonna have to put changes in program before can give very meaningful comments. maybe most significant diff is that i added a third buffer for messages that dont fit anywhere in chain, where they sit and wait a sec or so for getdata response, to avoid chain breaking if packets are dropped
17:39 asciilifeform (normally output buffer empty, console outputs go straight to console. but 'clutch engages' if there's a getdata hole)
17:40 asciilifeform i.e. if a msg makes it to output stage where the chain doesn't link up with the immed. chronological predecessor
17:40 * asciilifeform attempting to remove all 'handwaves' from spec and turn it into sumthing reasonably like a straight pseudocoad, implementable w/out having to bash head against problems which 'hey you must solve' but spec aint saying just how
17:42 asciilifeform jonsykkel, thimbronion , et al : lemme know if the new 'unified' sect4 algo makes 100% sense to you. imho the original one asciilifeform came up with was braindamaged and just about impossible to implement deterministically
~ 37 minutes ~
18:19 punkman https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10390555/Undersea-cable-connecting-Norway-Arctic-satellite-station-mysteriously-damaged.html
18:19 punkman "Radakin said there had been 'a phenomenal increase' in Russian submarine activity over the past 20 years, adding: 'Russia has grown the capability to put at threat those undersea cables and potentially exploit them.' "
18:25 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073380 << I would like to see the JVM in the form of a single executable (statically linked of course). it is tragic that this doesn't already exist.
18:25 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 12:37:26 asciilifeform: gregory5: asciilifeform doesn't keep a javatron around and likely will not be able to test tho
18:26 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073385 << that is such a noble goal. if everyone did this, the exegesis of RFCs might have been one of the pillars of the undergraduate computer-science curriculum.
18:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 12:40:56 asciilifeform: attempting to remove all 'handwaves' from spec and turn it into sumthing reasonably like a straight pseudocoad, implementable w/out having to bash head against problems which 'hey you must solve' but spec aint saying just how
18:28 asciilifeform gregory5: asciilifeform hesitated to do this, it will inevitably make for a more obese spec. but in the end decided it aint escapable. atm wrapping up a 'data types' section, will upload half-finished item shortly so folx can see what meant.
18:28 asciilifeform there.
18:29 * asciilifeform still in the midst of actually massaging whole thing to refer to that sect., rather than the adhoc peppering of 'here's a 256-bit...' prev.
18:33 * asciilifeform will bbl
18:40 gregory5 asciilifeform: section 3.1.4, the phrase "at most N characters in length... at all times occupies precisely N bytes" is contradictory (subject to one's understanding of hypotaxis/parataxis).
18:44 gregory5 might be better to say: A UPestString[N] is a string encoded in UTF-8, at all times occupying precisely N bytes, the unused trailing bytes being set to zero.
18:48 gregory5 then for parallelism you can change the definition of APestString to: a string encoded in pure ASCII, at all times occupying precisely N bytes, the unused trailing bytes being set to zero.
18:49 gregory5 if you don't mind being Laconian, there is no reason to mention "characters" in this section
19:01 asciilifeform gregory5: racking brain, but can't see why contradictory
19:01 asciilifeform can be e.g. 0, 1, etc. characters, but still occupies N bytes.
19:03 asciilifeform in ascii or utfism, can fit at most N chars (which are distinct, in the case of the latter, from bytes)
19:04 * asciilifeform not historically enamoured of utfism, but if can't paste e.g. ru string, as in trad irc, won't use
19:05 asciilifeform the major departure from tradition here is that handles are forced into ascii. which imho is absolutely essential: permitting homoglyph impersonation of nicks is profoundly retarded and major weakness of classical irc
19:06 * asciilifeform genuinely bbl
19:11 cgra http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073393 << document type starting to really look like what the supposed trb documentation also could look like...
19:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 13:28:07 asciilifeform: gregory5: asciilifeform hesitated to do this, it will inevitably make for a more obese spec. but in the end decided it aint escapable. atm wrapping up a 'data types' section, will upload half-finished item shortly so folx can see what meant.
19:14 * cgra considering publishing similar text re trb, to support further discussion of sync (have had such a draft around getting shape since the first months of study)
~ 29 minutes ~
19:44 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073401 << it depends on whether "at most N characters in length" and "The string at all times occupies precisely N bytes." are interpreted as hypotaxis or parataxis.
19:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 14:01:33 asciilifeform: gregory5: racking brain, but can't see why contradictory
19:50 gregory5 that is, whether the second sentence is subordinate to the first, or whether the sentences work together in parallel.
19:51 gregory5 this might have been a trivial contention, sorry.
~ 27 minutes ~
20:19 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073381 << ah, nice nice
20:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 12:38:37 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073376 << actually asciilifeform is writing even nao a revised-again sect4 where third, 'output buffer', entirely as you described
20:19 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073386 << so far seems to make sense but i need to code first to be able to see any problems anyway
20:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 12:42:31 asciilifeform: jonsykkel, thimbronion , et al : lemme know if the new 'unified' sect4 algo makes 100% sense to you. imho the original one asciilifeform came up with was braindamaged and just about impossible to implement deterministically
20:20 jonsykkel there're some details missing from algo that i can see: chek protocol version, invalid command, handling ignore pakets (specially with regard to rekeying), update peer packet stamp + key specific stamp + at entry
20:22 jonsykkel order of operations of these not entirely self explanatory i think anyway
20:23 jonsykkel 100%agre that eliminating handwaving > fat spec concerns
20:24 jonsykkel otherwise guarnanteed to end up with buncha pestrons all doing slightly diff stuff
~ 15 minutes ~
20:40 asciilifeform jonsykkel: re invalid cmd, we already have 'packet is rejected' neh
20:40 asciilifeform the timestamps thing is arguably not req'd to specify in protocol (it concerns strictly client ui) tho imho 100% oughta show last-valid-packet-time in AT view
20:40 jonsykkel indeed
20:41 asciilifeform still btw not certain what to do w/ versions
20:41 asciilifeform (reject packets from later versions? or not?)
20:41 asciilifeform prolly oughta, or at some pt may end up w/ nonsense when an ancient client tries to talk to later 1
20:41 jonsykkel ye dunno wat makes sense, if do that will force entire net to upgrade at same time
20:41 asciilifeform well you can't actually force folx to move, lol
20:42 asciilifeform they'll move or not on own steam
20:42 asciilifeform (we aint baking a prb, lol)
20:42 jonsykkel u are correct of course
20:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073410 << prolly oughta rephrase; tho atm unsure precisely in which dir
20:42 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 14:44:12 gregory5: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073401 << it depends on whether "at most N characters in length" and "The string at all times occupies precisely N bytes." are interpreted as hypotaxis or parataxis.
20:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073409 << would be a+++, and rlyoughta've existed 10+y ago
20:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 14:14:28 cgra: considering publishing similar text re trb, to support further discussion of sync (have had such a draft around getting shape since the first months of study)
20:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073416 << imho the new sect.4 is simpleenuff that oughta be 'walkable in head' (try)
20:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 15:19:38 jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073386 << so far seems to make sense but i need to code first to be able to see any problems anyway
20:45 asciilifeform i.e. the automagick 'knocking out' of hearsays when immed. copy of msg is received is now simple logical consequence of the latter going straight into the longbuffer
20:45 jonsykkel tried and failed. depends very much on capacity of head in question imo
20:45 asciilifeform hm ok
20:45 * asciilifeform interprets this as a sign that thing still needs work
20:46 asciilifeform the aim is 'worx obviously like kalash'
20:46 jonsykkel dunno, always need code in front of face to "think clearly"
~ 54 minutes ~
21:40 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073405 It's tangential, but the ideal computing system I wish to bring about would solve this nicely, by forcing such text to be in one language, and making it known which language were being used.
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 14:05:39 asciilifeform: the major departure from tradition here is that handles are forced into ascii. which imho is absolutely essential: permitting homoglyph impersonation of nicks is profoundly retarded and major weakness of classical irc
21:41 verisimilitude The insanity of Unicode is thinking that languages, unlike people, can peacefully coexist, as a colourful way of putting it.
21:43 verisimilitude An idiot would argue ``B-But now we need special software for each language.'', while his better would retort that it would be needed regardless, to have anything decent.
21:46 verisimilitude Another retort I've seen from idiots is that sometimes languages are heavily mixed, but my system poses no threat to such mixing.
21:46 verisimilitude No differently than having a sane computing system, idiots not only justify the current ways, they argue no other ways should be allowed to exist.
21:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: pre-unicodism things actually worked rather like this
21:56 asciilifeform (w/out, of course, anyffin the way of a standard means to indicate that e.g. next 9000 bytes are in jp or whatnot, had to guess)
21:56 * asciilifeform still has hdd fulla ru txts encoded in ancient 'koi8' etc
21:59 gregory5 to my understanding, part of the intent of Unicode was that program-authors ought to define their own subsets which the program can perfectly support.
22:00 asciilifeform yeawell
22:01 gregory5 instead, Unicode became supported at the language-level (as with Java's built-in UTF-16 support) and programmers began working with it blindly.
22:02 gregory5 moreover, a sort of Political Correctness began to form around the standard. anyone not using Unicode was stigmatized.
22:07 verisimilitude Read the following.
22:08 verisimilitude Regarding the first article, I'd someone tell me that he wished his co-workers understood how to think like that.
22:08 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073458 << good to see that you have made the same observations.
22:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 17:07:36 verisimilitude: Read the following.
22:08 verisimilitude I joke with others about how ``If the program accepts X, handle X.'' passes for great wisdom nowadays.
22:09 gregory5 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-16#1073462 << this is why languages which built Unicode into basic strings such as Python have caused more harm than good.
22:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-16 17:08:45 verisimilitude: I joke with others about how ``If the program accepts X, handle X.'' passes for great wisdom nowadays.
22:10 verisimilitude Those languages were causing harm without anything like that.
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
23:13 asciilifeform thimbronion, jonsykkel , et al : the datatypes thing, moar or less compleet.
23:14 * asciilifeform still gotta move various sections around, and clean up whatever barf, but this is 90% of what was aiming for today
23:16 * asciilifeform not esp. happy re the spec bloat (is over 100kb nao, in html format!) but imho over9000x moar concrete from implementer pov
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