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01:47 asciilifeform ACHTUNG, panzers! thimbronion billymg PeterL shinohai signpost et al : pest draft 0xFD updated !! includes rekey, getdata, bounce logic, and various other items discusses in the log.
01:48 asciilifeform corrections/comments invited.
01:49 asciilifeform also includes a proposed pill for the command headache with trad. irc clients;
01:50 asciilifeform and the 0xFE 'find me' mechanism proposed by asciilifeform recently.
01:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-14 14:49:16 asciilifeform: punkman: imho this oughta be strictly for 'hey $peer, i'm over-here'
01:51 asciilifeform ( for the impatient : rekey ; getdata . )
01:52 asciilifeform there may be ugly typos in the text, asciilifeform did not have time to do a proper walk.
01:53 asciilifeform the new bounce logic is detailed here.
01:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 11:36:21 asciilifeform: (and if there aint -- the station has a chance to receive the 1 with the lowest bounce count prior to rebroadcasting)
01:54 * asciilifeform must bbl
02:04 asciilifeform 1 item still not covered is the 'gimme my ephemeral port' thing. still need to think re the most compact way to do this.
02:04 * asciilifeform genuinely bbl
~ 47 minutes ~
02:52 * asciilifeform notices he made some pretty lulzy mistakes; goes to correct
~ 16 minutes ~
03:08 * asciilifeform fixed!
~ 41 minutes ~
03:49 * asciilifeform updated with prolly last change for this wk, folx who want to print and take to hammock, are invited to do so nao.
03:50 jonsykkel would if had printer and hammock
03:51 asciilifeform lol
03:54 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
03:54 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $55816.48
03:54 asciilifeform ^ see also
03:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 18:59:58 asciilifeform: lizards aint actually interested in ~spending~ their hodls, they need'em strictly for paperization, maintaining volatility so as to prevent their pyramid of traditional fuffles from toppling
~ 4 hours 8 minutes ~
08:03 punkman "the market can stay cringe longer than you can stay based"
~ 6 hours 36 minutes ~
14:39 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-19#1000904 << added to spec the possible use of backslash escape char for this.
14:39 bitbot (pest) 2021-11-19 PeterL: One question about the spec: is there some sort of escape character if you want to send a message starting with % instead of it being interpreted as a command to pest?
14:40 * asciilifeform also added to 'rekeying' the condition where 'key offer's must not be identical. somehow forgot this yest.
14:42 jonsykkel 14:00 stop station for update
14:42 jonsykkel 14:01 <someone> one
14:42 jonsykkel 14:02 start station
14:42 jonsykkel 23:41 <someone> two
14:42 jonsykkel here you wouldnt know about "one" msg until 23:41 as far as i can tell?
14:42 jonsykkel shudnt there be msg to ask for hash of prev msg, that u would send to all pears on boot. so can getdata asap
14:42 asciilifeform jonsykkel: possibly
14:42 asciilifeform jonsykkel: currently you gotta wait for someone to speak
14:43 jonsykkel indeed
14:55 asciilifeform jonsykkel: could specify that a 'getdata' with null hash requests the most recent broadcast msg.
14:55 * asciilifeform will let other folx comment.
14:56 jonsykkel sounds good
14:56 jonsykkel youd get the same thing with direct messages i guess too
14:58 asciilifeform sure
15:04 * asciilifeform would prefer not to add too many moar moving parts, with the possible exception of the above, and of this
15:04 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-18 21:04:25 asciilifeform: 1 item still not covered is the 'gimme my ephemeral port' thing. still need to think re the most compact way to do this.
15:09 * asciilifeform added some clarification to 'getdata'
15:12 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
15:13 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $57746.72
15:13 asciilifeform !w poll
15:13 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
15:13 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : Could not connect! (Operator: jurov)
15:13 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
15:13 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
15:13 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
15:13 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.044s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Could not connect!
15:13 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.142s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.139s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434 (Operator: asciilifeform)
15:13 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.183s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710434 (Operator: whaack)
15:13 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.292s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434 (Operator: asciilifeform)
15:13 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.209s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.244s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.262s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
15:13 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.460s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710434
15:14 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
15:25 asciilifeform meanwhile, vpatch of 0xFD pest spec posted. the working draft is nao officially of 0xFC !
15:25 scoopbot New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFD.
15:38 shinohai In literally random Linux crypto news: https://archive.md/3PEpU
15:45 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066703 << why do you work on p, pest, other items? I won't speak for you, but my assumption is that it's because you prefer to live in the world where they exist.
15:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-18 17:46:26 asciilifeform: thinking about this -- it goes back to the boojum -- how wouldja 'put to work' proverbial 1000btc ? say someone brings it to you and 'how wouldja turn this into 3000 for me, that'd justify the risk of letting it leave my brainwallet at all?'
15:46 signpost if mp had 1mil btc, or anywhere close, he had ample coin to start building the world he preferred to live in.
15:47 signpost and to do this and still be mansa musa at the end of it.
15:47 signpost and he'd have been richer for doing so even if the # of btc decreased a bit.
15:48 signpost not a "richer in his soul" thing either, but rather because he can buy sane computers, can etc
15:48 signpost as for us, yes, better stack sats and sit tight.
15:49 * signpost not even king of the grass-hut-folk yet
15:50 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066723 << woohoo, just ate last version in the tub yest, will pull this one into my head today.
15:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-18 22:49:51 asciilifeform: updated with prolly last change for this wk, folx who want to print and take to hammock, are invited to do so nao.
15:51 signpost beautifully simple with room to (sensibly) extend. I'll have more feedback soon.
15:55 signpost curious whether you see a role for working on obscuring which edges of the node graph are being used for direct messages. I can see utility in these messages hopping through friendlies when a station is under attack.
15:55 signpost since encrypted to recipient, I don't see a problem with flooding my direct messages over the entire wot just like broadcasts. or perhaps I use this when I want to.
15:57 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066728 << yeah, I'm accumulating money, but my goals aren't monetary. certain I'm not alone there.
15:57 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-18 22:54:24 asciilifeform: ^ see also
15:58 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066730 << hue
15:58 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 03:03:07 punkman: "the market can stay cringe longer than you can stay based"
16:11 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066775 << this is so
16:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 10:45:34 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066703 << why do you work on p, pest, other items? I won't speak for you, but my assumption is that it's because you prefer to live in the world where they exist.
16:14 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066777 << the basic boojum is that narcissists have poor contact with reality, cannot themselves build anyffin (tho occasionally gather sufficient manpower that 'things happen' for a spell, but ultimately fuck it all)
16:14 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 10:46:29 signpost: if mp had 1mil btc, or anywhere close, he had ample coin to start building the world he preferred to live in.
16:15 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066786 << see also
16:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 10:55:14 signpost: curious whether you see a role for working on obscuring which edges of the node graph are being used for direct messages. I can see utility in these messages hopping through friendlies when a station is under attack.
16:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-14 20:36:40 asciilifeform: ( note that notion there is to send a copy of the black to ~erry peer~, rather than as a net broadcast )
16:17 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066779 << asciilifeform's point was that ~for a chrematist~ (i.e. somebody for whom metric of success is strictly '# of btc stacked') the only things that make sense to do w/ btc is 1) sit on it 2) devise scams to vacuum up moar
16:17 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 10:47:19 signpost: and he'd have been richer for doing so even if the # of btc decreased a bit.
16:19 asciilifeform signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
16:19 asciilifeform *of life
16:21 asciilifeform hence trb, ffa, pest, etc. ( historically, asciilifeform would actually prefer to work on foundations of sane computing per se. but switched tacks on acct of above. esp. given that asciilifeform discovered to his satisfaction that actual sane computing is a fab-complete problem. )
16:23 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066774 << lulzy maggotry: 'The current maintainer of the existing /dev/random is dead silent since beginning of my work. Other Linux developers including core developers have commented and those comments have been incorporated.'
16:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 10:38:02 shinohai: In literally random Linux crypto news: https://archive.md/3PEpU
16:23 asciilifeform 'hey, new target for do-ocracy!'
16:24 signpost indeed, incidentally I reread the bitcoin whitepaper last night too. would love to see an elegant rewrite *without the scriptlang* someday.
16:24 signpost the basic idea is so elegant, and yet.
16:26 * signpost has no delusions that this would overtake bitcoin, just oughta exist in a museum somewhere.
16:27 asciilifeform signpost: it imho aint esp. hard to do a 'proper bitcoin' (recall various 'trbi' threadwanks). the problem is pow and 'the atc death'.
16:27 asciilifeform afaik no known approaches to a solution there.
16:28 asciilifeform ( and see also e.g. )
16:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-08 09:36:03 asciilifeform: i.e. the 'responsibility collapse triangle' of collectivist failure where there's 'users' who 'just want', and a set of 'providers' who are to supply the thing they 'just want', and somehow they are to live happily-ever-after together w/out one sticking knife in the back of the other
16:29 * signpost not in possesssion of any solutions to "mining is a bug" just yet either
16:29 * shinohai sees signpost setting up those btc miner containers everywhere there is natgas flareoff and mining problems solved.
16:30 signpost shinohai: some mining experiments aren't out of the question in time.
16:30 asciilifeform shinohai: not really -- 'flare' gas nao no longer phree, now that btc miners willing to buy it
16:30 signpost interested in the solar one, less regulatory bullshit to worry about
16:30 asciilifeform shinohai: you'd have to have with what to outbid'em
16:30 asciilifeform even pv panels aint phree
16:30 asciilifeform that's the thing, 'spittoon is in one strand'
16:30 * signpost at least has a relative to bounce ideas off in the pv arena
16:30 shinohai aha
16:31 signpost the passively cooled miner asciilifeform supposed would definitely have a market.
16:31 asciilifeform if it's a btc miner -- yes
16:32 asciilifeform asciilifeform's pov is that the process which 'monetized' btc prolly cannot be repeated. (and various scammer's attempts to repeat it are red herrings)
16:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 18:41:38 asciilifeform: aand shitcoins will prolly always remain an attractive nuisance to the dimwitted who reason (correctly!) 'the derps who were there around shitoshi in '09 were no better than me, wai can't i have 1000 btc, maybe can if we can replay history'
16:32 signpost curious if anybody has done the "cheap as dirt and zillions of 'em" approach to miners correctly yet
16:33 signpost asciilifeform: nah, probably not, but perhaps could have chains that interact in some way.
16:33 * signpost suspects the drug trade monetized btc
16:33 signpost i.e. distributed early coin widely enough
16:34 asciilifeform possib
16:34 * signpost bbl
16:35 * asciilifeform historically very skeptical of 'interacting chains', on the btc end these always require prbistic 'softforkism' 'voluntary' narrowings of the protocol
16:38 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066828 << i suspect not, given as needs proper crypto
16:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:32:46 signpost: curious if anybody has done the "cheap as dirt and zillions of 'em" approach to miners correctly yet
16:39 asciilifeform ... but also because only hardline chrematists have access to fabs, given the expense of the latter, and for these the ev calc. of 'trad btc miner' (i.e. densely packed, operable only in a dc, etc) vs. anyffin else is a nobrainer
16:40 asciilifeform iirc a m^2 pv at high noon on equator will give ~100W at most.
16:42 asciilifeform and, for passive cooling, you'll need a reasonably low-density die, and likely will get 10x less 'minerism per mm^2 of die' vs. traditional.
16:44 asciilifeform the other thing is, pv prolly aint massively attractive to operators because it has to compete with 'phree' (typically embezzled) mains current.
16:44 asciilifeform hard to beat 'phree'.
16:59 * thimbronion likely will not be able to comment on the spec update until next week due to travel/consuming last drops of fiat liquishit for a while.
16:59 * asciilifeform nods
17:03 asciilifeform thimbronion: the changes are (almost) entirely things that we've discusses in log.
17:03 asciilifeform *discussed
17:08 bonechewer re [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-19#1066777], relevant twitter thread: "To explain the nihilism of finance and chasing of optionality: By never actualizing anything you can pretend to have done everything."
17:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 10:46:29 signpost: if mp had 1mil btc, or anywhere close, he had ample coin to start building the world he preferred to live in.
17:08 asciilifeform bonechewer: see also tlp's 'feeling like a trader'(tm)(r)
17:09 asciilifeform for a chrematist, the moolah is an end in itself.
17:09 bonechewer sadly I have no referent for "tlp"
17:09 asciilifeform bonechewer: 'the last psychiatrist', defunkt blog that was occasionally linked in #t days
17:09 bonechewer aha
17:10 punkman "The idea for the LRNG design occurred during a study that I wrote for the German BSI" << german spook confirmed?
17:10 asciilifeform noshit
17:10 asciilifeform punkman: these days they aint even shy about it
17:13 thimbronion Incendentally watched a good film last night: Twelve O'Clock High.
17:13 * asciilifeform not familiar
17:13 thimbronion Relevant line "Act like you're alredy dead"
17:14 asciilifeform popular 'pop-bushido' meme
17:14 asciilifeform who doesn't claim to be 'already dead' naodays.
17:15 thimbronion everyone wearing a mask for ex.
17:23 asciilifeform eh next yr will be Officially mandatory to wear feathered cap instead of muzzle, or locket with scrap of parchment with word 'arsenicum' (troo 14th c. antiplague measure!!) -- and they'll wear. means ~nuffin.
17:23 bonechewer On more prosaic matters, now that Sec. 7 of the pest draft spec describes an exception to the rule of marking messages stale based only on timestamp, Sec. 3.1.1 should be updated to explicitly note the exception for GetData responses.
17:24 asciilifeform bonechewer: it should, indeed
17:24 asciilifeform will go in 0xfc.
17:24 asciilifeform also section numbering needs cleanup.
17:26 bonechewer Similar exception for GetData responses should be noted in Sec. 4.2.1 "Common Prologue". Yes I'm being pedantic but for me at least it would help loading spec into head
17:27 asciilifeform bonechewer: absolutely good point, tho
17:27 * asciilifeform encourages folx to report such sharp edges, no matter how seemingly pedantic
17:27 asciilifeform the specs needs to make sense on 1 pass reading.
17:27 asciilifeform if at all possible.
17:28 * asciilifeform also encourages folx to vpatch the spec. i'ma read and sign as fast as can. plox dun fughet to update the manifest when doing so.
17:28 bonechewer exactly! There is some discomfort when a certain picture formed in head, then upon reaching the GetData stuff, had to be torn down and modified
17:29 asciilifeform this is not as 'sexy' as baking prototype, but imho would really make the thing converge to 'kelvin 0' over9000x faster
17:29 asciilifeform bonechewer: aha
17:41 asciilifeform meanwhile, in wwwtronics mysteries (maybe billymg can solve?) -- in 'rekeying' section, section title fails to appear when rendered in asciilifeform's www css crapola.
17:42 asciilifeform lol actually none of the h1 titles appear.
17:43 * asciilifeform fucking hates cssism
~ 18 minutes ~
18:01 signpost asciilifeform: line 33 in your style.css is setting the text color to same as bg, or close enough
18:02 asciilifeform hmm for h1 ?
18:02 signpost slightly off on line count (it's what chrome's reporting), but it's `color: #F8F8F8`
18:02 signpost yeah
18:02 asciilifeform ty signpost , will look
18:02 signpost yw
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~
19:18 asciilifeform meanwhile in agitprop by old, tired lulzcows.
19:18 asciilifeform '...if you want to get a sense for the typical piece of content enabled by a totally uncensored communications system, check your spam folder.' << cuz wot never happened, etc
19:33 asciilifeform signpost: ty, loox like switching it to 000000 fixed.
19:33 asciilifeform the section titles still suffer from 'crushed' rendering in graphical www browsers, but nfi how to even begin to cure that atm
19:46 punkman https://storage.googleapis.com/media.urbit.org/site/posts/essays/secret-society-shirt.JPG
19:58 asciilifeform lol wassat
19:59 asciilifeform ( for noobs, see also re subj )
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
21:05 jonsykkel maybe gag with no arg should disaply killfilE?
21:05 jonsykkel aka display
~ 41 minutes ~
21:47 asciilifeform jonsykkel: imho yes, should
21:48 jonsykkel aight
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