#asciilifeform | 2021-11-15

Logged on 2021-11-14 15:20:39 punkman67: alternative implementation: "have_you_seen_handle" message, you send to all your peers, they reply with "ip:port:last_seen_timestamp" for requested handle

00:17

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065765 << neato! will press & restart with that one (hopefully stopped losing keys?)

00:17

Logged on 2021-11-14 16:10:41 scoopbot: New post on Thimbron: Blatta 9989: presence for wot

00:21

billymg: if worse comes to worse you could send me a copy of your main station db and I could attempt to debug it on my machine.

00:21

thimbronion: eh it's a sqlite, if need to can pull out contents without sweat

00:22

(simply gotta remember to back it up when trying n+1st draft)

00:26

anyways, i'm on 9989; runs

00:39

asciilifeform: continuing discussion from #pest - can you illustrate a concrete scenario?

00:41

thimbronion: re 'when would a station know a peer key but not a valid AT entry' ?

00:41

asciilifeform: yes. For example, is this for the case when you've already peered with someone, but one party changes IP?

00:42

most elementarily : when either it or the peer have drifted to a new ip and/or ephemeral nat port

00:42

correct.

00:42

this is esp. likely if the station is used intermittently

00:42

(either station)

00:43

Currently, if they both drift, that would be a problem. But if only one drifts, rubbish messages from the drifter should update the drifter's at.

00:43

whereas the key remains valid (currently -- indefinitely, until rekeyed manually; when we get 'rekey' -- similarly by mutual consent of the stations)

00:44

grrr "should update the non-drifter's at"

00:44

thimbronion: correct, as i understand it, is only pertinent if both drifted.

00:44

ahah ok.

00:45

I get it then.

00:45

the other scenario i can think of , is when drift is ~anticipated~

00:45

e.g. someone is planning a travel

00:46

under the current protocol, he may lose link rather frequently

00:51

thimbronion: the other notion behind 0xfe msg is to reduce the amt of avoidable gruntwork in setting up peerings to begin with.

00:51

asciilifeform: such that all one needs is a shared key and one peer?

00:52

( it is theoretically possible to bake a pest where nobody has to give a rat's arse about ip addrs at all! but rather 'unecological' not to mention slow)

00:52

Logged on 2021-11-13 22:01:08 asciilifeform: (2**32) / (60*60*24*10000) ~= 5days , by sending 10k packets/s ( (10000 * 498) / (1024**2) ~= 5MB/s ) to randomly-selected ipv4s.

00:52

thimbronion: correct

00:53

what i'd like is 'next best thing', where a station operator ~almost~ never has to deal with ips/ports.

00:53

e.g. billymg takes his rk station and copies to lappy, and doesn't need to fiddle w/ configs at all

00:53

yeah that would be nice

00:55

fwiw theoretically even nao, if yer station wasn't behind a nat, and none of its peers 'drifted', can already copy config w/out fiddling

00:55

(supposing the copied-to machine aint behind nat)

00:57

with the changes suggested by asciilifeform today & yest., would no longer be a matter of concern to station operator whether he's behind a nat or not.

00:57

and at very little cost.

00:59

i.e. if you can reach ~1~ peer, oughta be able to securely transmit a 'here i am' to each $peer in yer wot.

01:00

(naturally, they gotta be on the net)

01:03

for ref: the other change asciilifeform was referring to , was this. which'd allow 2 natted stations to link up.

01:03

Logged on 2021-11-11 11:22:54 asciilifeform: btw for troo 'hole punching , if we were to a msg type where yer peer tells you your ephemeral port, then a pair of peers where ~both~ are natted could link up if either of'em has a peer who isn't and is reachable.

01:03

(incl. to arbitrary other stations)

01:03

(per current spec, 1 peer in any pair gotta be un-natted)

01:04

with a 'gimme my port' cmd, it'd suffice for 1 of them to simply be able to reach any other unnatted peer.

01:04

(that is, one other)

01:05

thimbronion: makes sense ?

01:06

asciilifeform: yes

01:06

ftr there are heathen protocols which can be abused to send a udpgram and get back own ephemeral port. e.g. dns servers can be milked this way. but i'd rather not encode a reliance on heathen toilets into pest.

01:07

( not to mention that pest stations oughta be able to function inside a lan or whatever other segregated net )

01:07

billymg: sometihng else you could try to debug the bot would be to connect to the bot station with weechat and see who you can communicate with.

01:08

i.e. kill the bot, connect to the bot station with a standard IRC client

01:15

thimbronion: under the proposed scheme w/ 0xfe -- wouldn't even need to keep whole AT on disk; could suffice to supply a few known addrs on cmdline when starting, a la trb, and it'd squeeze the whole AT out via the described process on boot.

01:17

asciilifeform: ah yes. the advantage being -- less to burn when the door is being battered down?

01:17

well you still gotta burn the keys

01:17

(ideally keys oughta live on disk ciphered, and one enters pw on boot)

01:17

this is much easier when the only thing that ever gets updated on disk, is keys

01:18

a station db which falls into enemy hands from 'cold' machine oughta be ~worthless a la ciphered trb wallet.

01:19

(this, note, aint in the draft spec)

01:20

*

asciilifeform realizes that self/net-chains also gotta live on disk. so it won't after all be 'only keys'

01:20

still imho safe mechanism for requesting peer addrs via broadcast would be a win.

01:21

( when done as described, i.e. such that only the addressee learns anyffin )

01:32

incidentally, here's an entirely unrelated idea, simply to increase the suffering of snoops :

01:33

... a copy of erry outgoing ~black~ packet oughta be sent to some random handful of at addrs ~other~ than the intended peer's.

01:33

(the folx for whom not meant -- will simply throw it out as a martian .)

01:33

oughta be operator-configurable behaviour.

01:34

in fact oughta be able to set it to 'max' and then impossible to infer, via traffic analysis, who yer directmsging with.

01:35

*

asciilifeform regards this as optional luxury, rather than essential must-have

01:36

( note that notion there is to send a copy of the black to ~erry peer~, rather than as a net broadcast )

01:36

Logged on 2021-11-14 14:49:37 asciilifeform: punkman: otherwise is an invitation to simply treat ~all~ messages as broadcasts, which will be bw-costly.

01:37

for e.g. warez this'd be obscenely bw-hungry, but i can't think of a reason why a chat directmsg shouldn't travel (as copies of 'black') to erry peer in at (incl. obv. the intended addressee; none of the others will react to it)

01:38

when you directmsg, only you and the addressee have any biz knowing about it happening; and not yer isps, or nsa, etc

01:39

all the latter will see is 'someone is directmsging someone'

01:42

mercilessly twist, twist the knife in the liver of the snoop, and at small cost.

01:44

the other, orthogonal thing i'ma mention for completeness (may already have mentioned) is that stations oughta sometimes send packets of liquishit which aint 496byte. to ea. other (simply discard on receipt as martian) and to random ip.

01:44

it oughta be physically impossible to e.g. compose an ids rule against pest.

01:44

(without banning all of udp, incl. usg.dns etc)

01:47

(moar nuanced -- a pest packet's 496 oughta sometimes be elongated with random rubbish up to the 516 possible w/out fragging, and on receipt discard all bytes above 496 and process then normally)

01:47

Logged on 2021-07-22 13:36:38 asciilifeform: gregory4: gives total packet size of 576 ( 60 byte ip header, 8 byte udp header ) which is the trad. MTU.

01:48

(that way cannot 'oh hey let's allow dns but not pest, reject all where length==496')

01:49

is 'bridge too far' currently, but imho is Right Thing.

01:58

... an alt-variant of this would be to queue a random-soup packet to ea. peer (along with the actual black for the actual addressee) and send'em in random order, when directmsging.

01:58

Logged on 2021-11-14 20:33:05 asciilifeform: ... a copy of erry outgoing ~black~ packet oughta be sent to some random handful of at addrs ~other~ than the intended peer's.

02:00

would have similar effect from snoop's pov; without unnecessarily spreading copies of genuine ciphertext around the planet.

02:00

(can debate whether this matters)

02:01

*

asciilifeform is of the school of thought that it doesn't -- snoop can be presumed to obtain a copy of erry packet sent

02:10

verisimilitude

I was already planning to accept and truncate larger packets, so that works out.

02:10

verisimilitude

That's easier to program in some ways.

~ 45 minutes ~

02:56

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065827 << yeah, something is up with how i'm running that other blatta server. i tried connecting from here (different machine) and i could connect, and see 'billymg' in my nicklist, but messages i sent to #pest weren't showing up on the other machine

02:56

Logged on 2021-11-14 20:07:47 thimbronion: billymg: sometihng else you could try to debug the bot would be to connect to the bot station with weechat and see who you can communicate with.

02:56

i guess at least that rules out that it's something bot specific

03:05

will look into it some more tomorrow

03:15

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065645 << asciilifeform: I'm biting the bullet on this one. Fair, but I'm workin' on it.

03:15

Logged on 2021-11-14 11:50:29 asciilifeform: !!rate cdd 1 n00b

03:16

I

03:20

I'd like to inquire though, what's the story behind diana_coman, mircea_popescu, hanbot, et cetera.

03:22

My understanding of Trilema, TMSR and the (((real))) history of early bitcoin is limited. From my understanding popescu made the first bitcoin exchange, and technologies like the WoT and deedbot were built around them.

03:22

s/them/it./

03:36

Then, TMSR collapsed. I have no idea why.

~ 21 minutes ~

03:58

I am probably missing something, but it seems to me there is no great benefit from selfchains being stored on disk. If my station goes down and traffic continues, won't the selfchains I read from disk be out of date? Or do you mean only the selfchains for my own outgoing messages?

03:58

In the latter case, obviously I do need to read my station's own state from disk.

04:04

further upstack, I am probably not as smart as a schoolboy, but I would very much like to have a hand in creating a portable, air-gapped otptron

04:04

Logged on 2021-11-14 14:04:58 asciilifeform: even a schoolboy could readily bake e.g. otp-ciphered walkie talkie. but no one's ever heard of one, because nobody will engineer a 'bitcoin magazine' marketing push for working crypto, because why.

04:05

...see e.g. my earlier monomania on the subject

04:05

Logged on 2021-07-26 15:16:11 bonechewer: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046718 << upstack: I may be a tedious monomaniac, but I do think that easy availability of a build-it-yourself, un-own-able portable OTPtron would have civilisational impact, if only by crowding out USG's ability to sell ersatz versions

04:09

It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you

04:09

view it

04:11

But an air-gapped otptron that communicates via QR-codes and camera, with no network interface whatsoever, only a SD card for loading code and keys, ought to be doable.

04:14

So, with a bit more risk, might be exchanging ciphertext with one's network-facing box only over an optical serial link

04:17

But if that OTP walkie-talkie can't be built with off-the-shelf parts, it'll never be feasible... so I was pretty dismayed that asciilifeform seemed to envision only an acoustic coupler, the fabrication of which would be entirely beyond my ken

04:17

Logged on 2021-07-26 19:06:02 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-26#1048940 << i can't resist to ask, where do you live or work such that acoustic coupler cannot work (they work at point-blank range) due to ambient noise ?

04:22

bonechewer: the thrd you linked imho contains a quite pedantic explanation by asciilifeform of 'wainot'

04:23

i.e.

04:23

Logged on 2021-07-26 17:19:46 asciilifeform: mats: it is why 'adult' product is specifically ~not~ 'made of lego'

04:25

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065869 << a +1 aint a rebuke, cdd, it's normally what someone gives to a n00b so that the latter is in turn able to rate people (a 0 cannot , traditionally, issue ratings of his own). it simply means 'i don't know this fella at ~all, but imho he can be trusted not to fill wot db w/ spamola at least'

04:25

Logged on 2021-11-14 22:15:36 cdd: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065645 << asciilifeform: I'm biting the bullet on this one. Fair, but I'm workin' on it.

04:26

cdd: wot rating traditionally expresses degree of familiarity you have with the subject of the rating. and the sign bit (+/-) expresses whether in your view his works are of good or evil.

04:27

(there's debate re details of this, but afaik this is a reasonably accurate description of typical use)

04:28

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065873 << mp never (far as anyone knows) built 'bitcoin exchanges' in the usual sense. ( here's a review of what he was orig. known for, in the early days. )

04:28

Logged on 2021-11-14 22:22:25 cdd: My understanding of Trilema, TMSR and the (((real))) history of early bitcoin is limited. From my understanding popescu made the first bitcoin exchange, and technologies like the WoT and deedbot were built around them.

04:30

cdd: fella was 1 of those people who spent entire life preoccupied with building up a 'legend of himself' : reliable info re his actual biography is scarce. but the #t (his chan) log contains literally ~100MB of him, can read until choking

04:32

cdd: keep in mind, mp was not a programmer (even in the hobbyist sense) and 'his' systems were in all cases built up by associates (sometimes unknown) .

04:32

despite your exposition in linked thread, I simply can't fathom why I should object to Other People's Code running on a board with no network interface whatsoever. That code can do whatever it likes, but can't leak plaintext over a network interface that doesn't exist.

04:33

bonechewer: iirc i described in painful detail -- if it shares a power supply and radio nearfield with the seekrit-laden board, can interact w/ same (and with nearby artifacts)

04:34

this doesn't somehow go away if one closes eyes.

04:35

perhaps, but TEMPEST seems like a much more difficult class of attack for the adversary than simply (1) send magic packet to box running PGP (2) ask Intel management engine to squirt framebuffer to adversary HQ

04:36

bonechewer: normally when 'reddit lego designer' builds ciphermachines, there's no reason for adversary to 'plant' anyffin at all - it leaks entirely naturally in the carrierwave of the bluetooth, wifi, etc. liquishit these 'legos' inevitably include.

04:36

and picking up the leaked bits doesn't require exotica in black vans, but generally can be done w/ ~100$ box from across 3 streets if need be.

04:37

my assumption is that otp walkie-talkie contains no commercial wifi, ethernet, bluetooth, etc. chips; just own FPGA.

04:38

this -- would be sane. for so long as you follow sane principles of rng as illustrated here -- separate grounds for analogue/digital/rng , shields, >1 indep. trng unit, etc

04:39

not exotic in any sense, is exactly how test equipment ( a decent, i.e. 5000$+ oscilloscope, encephalograph, etc. ) designed always.

04:40

bonechewer: the main problem with sane electronics is the ~nonexistent market they face at anything like a realistic price point as asciilifeform detailed in 50+ threads to date.

04:40

Logged on 2021-07-26 15:33:18 asciilifeform: bonechewer: this as you can already see aint esp. difficult to build. problem will be similar to FG (which, or something like it, you in fact will need to include in each unit). you'll need to sell'em for 1k$+ to break even. (or, alternatively, 100$ but sell 1e6 units.)

04:40

from bitter experience.

04:41

of course, and in particular otp walkie talkie needs no TRNG onboard. One operator with TRNG can pre-populate a bunch of pads onto microSD cards or such, for operator of OTPtron to insert

04:41

in principle could. (sane for so long as the 'filler' aint a pc)

04:45

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065882 << the traditional countermeasure, used by afaik nearly erryone, is to pgpate on a nicless lappy only switched on for the duration of the session (how to get ciphertext from net and onto it, varies, diff. people do it in diff. ways)

04:45

Logged on 2021-11-14 23:09:00 bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you

04:46

(e.g. mp actually had his whores key it in by hand, supposedly)

04:47

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065872 << it's a 100MB+ story, and dun trust anyone who'd propose to fit it into a paragraph or 3.

04:47

Logged on 2021-11-14 22:20:44 cdd: I'd like to inquire though, what's the story behind diana_coman, mircea_popescu, hanbot, et cetera.

04:48

*

bonechewer would be willing to be that >50% pgpate right on their 'net-connected boxes and hope the Eye of Sauron is napping at that moment

04:49

*willing to bet

04:49

cdd: if yer impatient, here's an mp flunkie's 'interview' of asciilifeform following the latter's expulsion from mp's imaginary empire

↖ ↖

04:49

Logged on 2019-11-08 20:15:06 asciilifeform: dorion: you may begin whenever you wish. ( yer time slot is still to 1600 . )

04:49

bonechewer: how you do it is b/w you and odin

04:49

http://deedbot.org/bundle-709780.txt

point being, there's a traditional 'inexpensive and mostly sane' algo.

04:50

deedbot

04:50

deedbot

http://deedbot.org/bundle-709780.txt

04:50

rather like how is generally agreed that one oughta wash hands b/w shitting and eating.

04:50

oh ha signpost , is it doubled up cuz i fired it twice ?

04:50

(and iirc it used to confirm when eating..?)

04:52

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065877 << correct.

04:52

Logged on 2021-11-14 22:58:43 bonechewer: In the latter case, obviously I do need to read my station's own state from disk.

04:52

shuttling ciphertext to and from 'net-connected box is time-consuming enough to significantly increase message-to-message turnaround time. A well-designed airgapped otptron that made it quicker would mean many more people communicating securely.

04:53

bonechewer: 'securely'

04:53

that's the thing, most people aint masochists, they are not 'doing it painfully for the sake of pain'

04:53

hmm, I fail to understand what you are driving at, sorry

04:54

bonechewer: most 'optimizations for comfort' offered by soi-disant 'security' vendors compromise security in very obvious ways.

04:54

the lusers eat it up anyways, of course.

04:55

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065891 << I understand that, but it's good to have it clarified distinctly. I was rather referring to my newlyfound status of "n00b" which I can't deny.

04:55

Logged on 2021-11-14 23:25:22 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065869 << a +1 aint a rebuke, cdd, it's normally what someone gives to a n00b so that the latter is in turn able to rate people (a 0 cannot , traditionally, issue ratings of his own). it simply means 'i don't know this fella at ~all, but imho he can be trusted not to fill wot db w/ spamola at least'

04:56

cdd: errybody currently tuned in 'started life' as somebody's '+1 -- n00b' or the like, at one pt.

04:56

My understanding of these systems are surface-level to say the least.

04:56

Comforting. :)

04:56

of course there is a trade-off between time taken to encipher/decipher and transmit, vs. probability of the adversary reading your plaintext.

04:57

bonechewer: it doesn't get much faster than e.g. pestgram, if you need 'reasonable' seekoority and fast msg time.

04:57

gold standard is still pgp.

04:57

( tho asciilifeform is slowly working on changing this )

04:58

Agreed. And if one absolutely wants security, use a one-time pad offline, encipher/decipher by hand, key in the ciphertext.

04:58

bonechewer: if yer paper pads aint generated by something mostly equivalent to FG, you're still a walking corpse

04:59

rng is not a trivial problem.

04:59

Sure, and best not reuse them a la VENONA

04:59

(and nobody's about to throw 1e7 coins to bake paper pad. even 1930s su used machines.)

04:59

there's a reason they succumbed to temptation to reuse.

04:59

pads were expensive.

04:59

(esp. the part where it has to travel with armed couriers etc)

05:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065920 << I think I'll opt for this for the time being. I'm considering doing a "tar -czf" of the encounter. Perhaps writing a piece on the history of bitcoin.

05:00

Logged on 2021-11-14 23:49:14 asciilifeform: cdd: if yer impatient, here's an mp flunkie's 'interview' of asciilifeform following the latter's expulsion from mp's imaginary empire

05:00

All of the above nonwithstanding, my contention is simply that there is a worthwhile point on the continuum between pest and offline paper OTP

05:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065927 << yeah, nbd. I made the deed outputs spend way less coin. no sense in burning 60 bucks per or w/e it'd have been now.

05:00

Logged on 2021-11-14 23:50:41 asciilifeform: oh ha signpost , is it doubled up cuz i fired it twice ?

05:00

regarding the confirmation on !!deed, it was aimed at the wrong channel, will happen going forward.

05:00

enjoy!

05:00

ty for repairing deedbot, signpost ! will be very handy going fwd.

05:01

also, added a link to whaack's explorer for txn info

05:01

a++

05:01

yw

05:02

cdd: there's literally 100+MB of txt you'd have to eat before had even faint hope of 'writing a history' that won't make e.g. the already dead mp die again of laffter, along w/ the remaining living folx

05:02

lol

05:02

( in fact not long ago we already had a fella show up who wanted 'write history', seems like choked )

05:02

cdd: sweetheart why don't you read for longer than a few days before writing history of the world, part 2

05:03

rizzo's shitpoasting on twitter

05:03

lol!

05:03

signpost: tmsr-themed shite, or generic ?

05:05

And an airgapped, portable OTPtron vulnerable only to TEMPEST is a worthwhile intermediate point that should exist; should at least be specced out in adequate detail to permit work on one to get underway.

05:05

nope, lots of taproot shit lately https://twitter.com/pete_rizzo_

05:05

*

signpost mighty entertained that this entire branch of history is written atop anyonecanspend

05:06

bonechewer: the problem with (as i understand from prev thrd) your approach, is that 'legoware' is a 100% dead end, it cannot be turned into sane systems, and especially not by the types of folx who accept legoware to start with

05:06

signpost: It was a "perhaps" not an absolute. I'm just interested in what happened here, not a fucking twittertard here to shill opinions and post shit.

05:07

cdd: btw n00b rating is an honor. you are unaware of the cultural context.

05:07

bonechewer: likewise, the cost differential b/w lego and sanity is 2-3 usd zeroes, and the temptation to cut those 0s is virtually irresistible unless yer a self-destructive fanatic like asciilifeform circa '14-15

05:07

(tiny honor, but honor!)

05:08

cdd: just saying much happened, quite worth reading.

05:08

bonechewer: for background info, the cost of fabricating the 1st 100 FGs was ~5k usd. and that's not counting asciilifeform's time , or 1st microbatch of prototypes with defective solder joins , asciilifeform's microscopy time and fight w/ the board people, etc etc

05:09

or the 500+hrs of exhaustive burn-in testing, or, or.

05:09

and that's for a simple-as-hammer, comparatively, item, that was merely a rather slow rng !

05:10

i.e. a tool which pisses trng bits at ~7kB/s outta serial line.

05:10

today that 5k would be 10-15, post-hyperinflation (and counting)

05:10

and not to mention parts shortages.

05:11

and you'll sell 5-6.

05:11

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-15#1065976 << this's the right attitude -- could in fact learn sumthing.

05:11

Logged on 2021-11-15 00:06:39 cdd: signpost: It was a "perhaps" not an absolute. I'm just interested in what happened here, not a fucking twittertard here to shill opinions and post shit.

05:11

05:12

*

signpost afk, will catch up on logs properly tomorrow.

05:12

*

asciilifeform to bed soon

05:12

asciilifeform: In the name of your de-anonymization I'll doxx myself a bit, if it helps.

05:14

*

asciilifeform must to bed, will answer any q's tomorrow

05:16

I'm an 18yo moron who "discovered" for lack of a better term, the marvels of lisp-machines, cybernetics and a window to the world that our founding forefathers (greybeards, hackers and fools alike) left behind.

05:16

good night, asciilifeform. And I'll continue to naively hope that if a sane airgapped OTPtron can get specced and designed, it'll get built, even if not on my own nickel

05:24

I'm here, talking in this channel and asking questions because I want to learn. So I'd like to implore you to excuse my mediocracy, and understand it's taken a substantial amount of effort to break away from the vices and fools that plague my age group.

05:31

As it stands, my love for computers is slowly dwindling of the cusp of death due to the indecent fuckery of the modern "education" system.

05:32

s/of/and at/

~ 26 minutes ~

05:59

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-15#1065995 << all 18yo are "morons", don't worry about that

05:59

Logged on 2021-11-15 00:16:37 cdd: I'm an 18yo moron who "discovered" for lack of a better term, the marvels of lisp-machines, cybernetics and a window to the world that our founding forefathers (greybeards, hackers and fools alike) left behind.

06:05

there has been no progress on this stack of shit we call a computer, since before you were born

~ 55 minutes ~

07:01

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-15#1066002 << It became blazingly obvious in '95 when the seething turd that is "JavaScript" came to fruition. If fruition is the right word; JS would be durian.

07:01

Logged on 2021-11-15 01:05:43 punkman: there has been no progress on this stack of shit we call a computer, since before you were born

07:10

Fucking millennials.

~ 3 hours 9 minutes ~

10:19

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/14/bitcoin-taproot-upgrade-what-it-means-for-investors.html

10:20

funny how niche "bitcoin magazine" article, is now to be found on cnbc

10:20

"The Taproot update means greater transaction privacy and efficiency – and crucially, it will unlock the potential for smart contracts, which can be used to eliminate middlemen from transactions. "

10:21

"It is a rare moment of consensus among stakeholders, and it’s a big deal for the world’s most popular cryptocurrency. "

10:23

lol "NYC Mayor-elect Eric Adams vows to take his first three paychecks in bitcoin"

~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~

11:46

shinohai: in case you couldn't see in #pest: were you able to verify whether the bot is or isn't receiving messages at both the pest level and the IRC level?

11:46

For ex, the above message shows up in my logs as: 2021-11-15 06:43:11.311144 [67.166.203.177:7778] <- 0bbe29dda41c1f9c. You should be able to see that hex number with the arrow going the other way in your log.

11:47

2021-11-15 06:43:11.281190 [127.0.0.1:53954] -> "PRIVMSG #pest :shinohai: were you able to verify whether the bot is or isn't receiving messages at both the pest level and the IRC level?\r\n" <-- this is what the irc message from my irc client to the pest station looks like in my log.

11:52

thimbronion: unpeered bot from myself then manually added key, etc using weechat. Restarted bot. It still spits out msg: 2021-11-15 11:50:55.736051 Discarding message to unknown handle or handle with no key

11:52

oooooh interesting

11:54

Now in bot's logs it *sees me calling messages* and prints 'em to the log. Somehow there is no longer a channel in the field it's supposed to be in - and this behavior persists even when I moved bot back to older version of blatta.

11:55

Bot also doesn't respond to DM's, so nfi

11:55

shinohai: when you do /wot busybot, is there a key in the response?

11:56

yup there is ket there

11:56

*key

11:58

shinohai: can you paste a logline of the command missing the channel field from both the IRC client and the pest station broadcast?

~ 29 minutes ~

12:27

ftr billymg it's possible your bot can't handle irc messages with the optional prefix set to only the nick: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1459#section-2.3.1. In blatta versions prior to 9989 this value was being set to nick@ip.

12:32

Because who would ever not want to share their IP with the whole world?

~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~

14:10

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-three

14:15

jonsykkel

someone pear me on blatta i wana test

~ 33 minutes ~

14:49

shinohai: looks like you figured out how to get your bot working, what was the change?

14:51

billymg: It 'twas as awt said - he removed the `user@host` bit from client.py and now only prints user.

14:51

I still have some bot fiddling to do to get it to respond to DM's tho

14:54

i wonder if my brain was revving backwards, when i came up with this, because now i can't find sense in it. did asciilifeform grasp? :P

14:54

Logged on 2021-08-12 08:54:46 cgra: asciilifeform: haven't tested this, but i suspect that an obey_sendbuffersize node (A), when catching up blocks, may end up banning peer (B) with >2x the sendbuffersize, if B advertises blocks with full capacity, in response to A's "getblocks"

15:08

cgra: it made sense: an unpatched (or patched with higher permissible sendbuffer length) noad may end up banned by a patched one where max sendbuffer is smaller

15:09

cgra: didn't turn out to be a problem in practice -- trb-compat. nodes don't spam multi-dozen-MB contin. sends.

15:10

*

asciilifeform operates 2 noads w/ the patch, and had 0 serious sync problems since patching in feb. 2020.

15:10

Logged on 2020-02-27 10:44:22 asciilifeform: attn trb operators: 205.134.172.27 is nao running mod6's latest variant, augmented with this experimental patch (my sig thereof ) .

15:10

meanwhile, unrelatedly, in covidiocy: 1 2

15:12

asciilifeform: if A is catching up blocks, B isn't going to send getdata to A (and trigger the obey_sendbuffersize check), but the other way around. is why i'm confused atm

15:12

cgra: indeed it's the other way around

15:13

cgra: trb simply doesn't send massive getdatas : it's 'headers-first sync' prb nodes which do this.

15:13

so how does A end up banning B then, if no getdata comes from B?

15:13

(well that an' 'wedger.py, lol)

15:14

cgra: A bans B if B sends massive getdata.

15:14

if B is a trb-compat. noad -- it won't, simply

15:14

hence wai no prob to date.

15:16

anecdotally, I had chest pains for months after the vax

15:16

asciilifeform: i'm referring specifically to my earlier claim -- there's this 2x sendbuffersize thing too. i know trb sends only that many blocks what its sendbuffersize can hold. and also seen how prb streams in 500 block bursts

15:16

went away by now

15:16

signpost: interesting

15:17

signpost: lucky you weren't a heavy athlete, lol

15:17

cgra: aha

15:17

lol no sir

15:17

asciilifeform: i mean, i know trb ~offers~ that many blocks at a time, it could send in one go

15:18

*

signpost stays fit enough that folks can't tell on first sight my wife's a baker.

15:18

that's all

15:18

cgra: i admit that not sure what your q is

15:18

did start biking much more after the chest pains, and I think that helped.

15:20

*

asciilifeform brb

15:20

asciilifeform: np let's fughedaboudit for now, i'll blog it up if it starts to make sense again to me

15:21

moving on with the rest of the dos list

~ 17 minutes ~

15:39

jonsykkel: will get you a key later

15:44

signpost: Shit man. consider doing a heart health work up. Been meaning to do that myself.

15:50

been gone for months, but yeah, wouldn't be a bad idea.

15:51

*

signpost rereading the pest spec on a "remarkable", pretty great for this

15:51

blatta testers: just discovered a bug: too many rubbish messages are being sent out. Doesn't break anything but still dumb.

15:53

signpost: I have a remarkable 2. I love it.

15:57

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-15#1066044 << . sometimes it's just heartburn, but it's probably wise to see a cardiologist, even now without symptoms.

15:57

Logged on 2021-11-15 10:16:31 signpost: anecdotally, I had chest pains for months after the vax

16:03

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-15#1066062 << a, the epaper gadget ? worx reliably ? ( asciilifeform has smaller 'onyx' chinesium currently )

16:03

Logged on 2021-11-15 10:51:07 signpost: rereading the pest spec on a "remarkable", pretty great for this

16:03

yeah, quite pleased with it, and they give ya ssh into it politely.

16:04

punkman: I've got chronic heartburn, managed, so I figure it was probably that

16:04

signpost: how does one get payloads in/outta it ?

16:04

*

punkman considering getting an ipad, to use for reading + drawing

16:04

but sure, will get checked out

16:05

asciilifeform: I'm grandfathered into their "cloud storage" thing, but pretty sure the ssh can be used to huck items to it

16:05

signpost: lemme know if that worx, iirc i passed on that box because vendor docs suggested their server thing is mandatory

16:05

sure will check

16:05

signpost: does the pen thing work ?

16:06

not sure I can bring myself to use an Apple thing though

16:06

punkman: i have the smaller crapplepad, it worx as a www toilet, but prolly will be retired when i get rid of the last crapple box in torture room, it's ~unusable w/out one

16:07

asciilifeform: pen works great for me - eraser too.

16:07

asciilifeform: yeah works fine; I use it for misc notes

16:08

'onyx' came w/ the pen, but there's very little software-end support for it

16:08

(wacom-style radio-powered pen)

16:08

this one's just a plastic stick, but feels alright in the hand

16:09

signpost: don't hesitate to point out bugs in spec btw, while reading

16:09

*

asciilifeform still finding outright typos months later, will eventually carry the fixes from the paper heap to the www draft

16:09

yep, just giving it full attention now, finally settling out of the megacorp-induced attention deficit

16:09

... not to mention whole sections missing, lol

16:11

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-15#1066063 << indeed seemed to asciilifeform that there's a bit many given the logic where triggered by irc client ping

16:11

Logged on 2021-11-15 10:51:55 thimbronion: blatta testers: just discovered a bug: too many rubbish messages are being sent out. Doesn't break anything but still dumb.

16:11

( ideally imho would be an operator-set 'poisson' knob )

16:12

asciilifeform: indeed. gotta work in some kind of settings command.

~ 20 minutes ~

16:32

jonsykkel

thimbronion: cool

~ 1 hours 57 minutes ~

18:29

$ticker btc usd

18:29

busybot

Current BTC price in USD: $64010.34

18:30

!w poll

18:30

Polling 17 nodes...

18:30

185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!

18:30

84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!

18:30

176.9.59.199:8333 : Could not connect! (Operator: jurov)

18:30

185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!

18:30

205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=709871

18:30

213.109.238.156:8333 : Could not connect!

18:30

71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.091s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871 (Operator: asciilifeform)

18:30

205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.142s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871

18:30

208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.165s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871

18:30

54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.257s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871

18:30

205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=709871

18:30

143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.305s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871

18:30

103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.610s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871

18:30

205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=709871 (Operator: whaack)

18:30

205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=709871 (Operator: asciilifeform)

18:31

54.39.156.171:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!

18:31

^ as expected, recent prb lulz have no observable effect in civilized world.

18:31

Logged on 2021-11-09 16:39:27 asciilifeform: i dun give half a fuck about 'taproot' etc. and never will.

18:31

192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)

18:32

( with possible exception of evermoar 'anyone can spend' garbage. but this dun affect anyone but the marks. )

18:34

the battle to prevent hardforks was won.

18:35

signpost: well, to keep hardforks in their place (the circus) at any rate

18:35

Logged on 2021-11-14 13:23:04 asciilifeform: shinohai: udp per se is the proverbial 'postcard' -- take N bytes, an ip and a port, and throw'em on their way at the latter

18:35

grr wrong link

18:35

signpost: ... well, to keep hardforks in their place (the circus) at any rate

18:35

Logged on 2021-11-11 09:31:02 asciilifeform: jurov: lolwhy, splitcoins are great, it's as if idjits were sending out postcards w/ phree bitcent. (arguably we oughta have recycled'em while they were 'fashinable' and worth 3-4 bitcents rather than 1, but better late than never imho)

18:36

*prevent from supplanting real btc, yep

18:37

*

asciilifeform actually disappointed that there aint anymoar lulphorks -- the phree coin was great

18:39

one of my very few successful "trades" was to sell them immediately

18:39

asciilifeform: this is what shitcoins are for

18:39

even just the piggy fattened palpably from shitcoin recycling

18:39

Logged on 2021-11-11 15:35:47 asciilifeform: bch recycling yield : 0.35992805 . ( will go in quarterly broadcast )

18:39

Logged on 2021-11-12 09:30:00 asciilifeform: meanwhile concluding yest's recycling operation : ty shinohai ! net yield from 'bsv' recycling into piggy == 0.09461753 . after all recycling ops, piggy nao == 34.07754558 , and this'll be in the next broadcast !

18:40

*

signpost will be rolling over cardano and ethereum into btc before long

18:40

*

asciilifeform never deliberately collected shitcoins, but how can refuse when they get sent in 'for phree'

18:43

asciilifeform: any good fork-coin balance tools available?

18:43

signpost: various www-based heathen block exploders show certain phorks

18:44

afaik the only 2 'alive' atm (in the sense where you can actually tx) are the 2 described in asciilifeform's recycling saga

18:46

( the third, 'btg', appears to be dead in practice , was unable to find any means of txing on it )

↖ ↖

18:46

Logged on 2021-11-12 09:34:40 asciilifeform: the lemon is 100% squeezed nao ( incidentally that same gox eats 'btg' but i was unable to find a working client for same. so ~those~ bitcents can be considered lost , likely )

18:46

looks like snoar for me

18:47

aha

18:47

it only makes sense if yer moving coinz anyways

18:47

(obv. you wouldn't tx on a shitphork from a 'living' btc addr)

18:48

*

signpost also ate most of his BTC after these forks

18:48

at great effort, lol

18:50

*

asciilifeform similarly

~ 4 hours 40 minutes ~

23:30

asciilifeform: I'm having trouble locating in the spec where the hashing algorithm to be used to check for duplicates is specified.

23:30

bitbot

(pest) 2021-11-15 asciilifeform: deduping is done with hash of entire msg per spec

23:31

thimbronion: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#fn-11

23:32

asciilifeform: ty

23:32

thimbronion: it's the same hash used for selfchain/netchain

23:32

(and later for 'getdata' when we have it)

23:33

thimbronion: observe that only the message is covered by this hash.

23:34

(i.e. nuffin in the red packet other than the 428byte of message is touched by it )

23:36

ftr, 'In the current protocol: SHA256. The hash encompasses all message fields, in the order they are listed in the table. Any trailing padding bytes required by the hash are to equal zero.'

23:38

this means these ( Timestamp, SelfChain, NetChain, Speaker, Text -- in that order )