Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-09-22 | 2021-09-24 → ↓
00:01 asciilifeform thimbronion: nope
00:01 asciilifeform ( see also )
00:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 10:40:29 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059091 << the 2-3 times asciilifeform tried to read 'bap', bored to death and garbagecollected. but given how vigorously he's pushed, can only assume is a tame zhirinovskian dissent-pet of the reich
00:11 asciilifeform thimbronion: it has vague rightpablum associations in my head. and if anyffin like the author's www, i suspect is deadly boring to folx who are familiar with the sources he cribbed, mp-style
00:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-11 12:49:07 asciilifeform: the entire history of 'organized right' in usa is a series of these, cynical hucksters, their room-temp-iq marks, book deals
00:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 14:29:33 signpost: check it out, it's aristotle with more cock references
00:12 asciilifeform however serious fans are invited to link to a good warez scan. i'ma eventually read, if this meinkampf really is the best the anglos have to offer atm
~ 16 minutes ~
00:28 thimbronion asciilifeform: Afaict he claims to be eastern european in origin. IMO his material is hilarious. Much of it being in podcast form, I suspect it will be forever inaccessible to asciilifeform. I was not aware that he had any www.
00:29 asciilifeform thimbronion: punkman seems to think that fake orc ? ( i've nfi -- not fan )
00:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 03:59:13 punkman: "This is hardly BAPtist" << they really love Bronze Age Pervert, who turns out is american academic that pretends to write English like someone from Balkans
00:29 thimbronion asciilifeform: also has fake slavic accent, if so.
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00:31 asciilifeform i suppose oneday i'ma have to hear the tape, expect it'll be obvious (ameritards doing 'accent' somehow mysteriously always sound exactly the same)
~ 19 minutes ~
00:50 billymg asciilifeform: i just grabbed one of the copies from here
00:54 billymg aside from some of the valid concerns there's the simple fact of "gotta stick yourself with this to participate in society". and no i don't think getting around it via forged documents or bribes to doctors really solves anything, it could be saline solution and i still wouldn't want it because it's a symbol of compliance/slavery. same with the masks
00:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 15:03:37 punkman: https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/post/the-last-post
00:55 billymg sorry, the above re: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059281
00:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 17:08:12 asciilifeform: punkman: and no one takes bribe at the center? or wat
00:57 thimbronion billymg: I'm gonna try paying the bribe if they ban me from flights before mid-october. Alternatively might try flying out of TJ. Just seems dumb to get the shot if I already had covid.
00:57 billymg the masks are by far the most in your face, humiliating example imo. whenever there's footage of elites at some gathering they're always maskless while the waiters are muzzled
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00:57 billymg and afaik there ain't a slip of paper that gets you out of wearing one of those in places where they're required
00:58 thimbronion I will say that I haven't gotten so much as a cold since everyone started wearing masks, which has been nice, honestly.
00:59 thimbronion I still hate'em.
00:59 billymg thimbronion: i've been trying to monitor that closely, does it seem like they might attempt to limit air travel to the vaccinated (how vaccinated? 2 shots? 3?) only?
01:00 billymg thimbronion: i have no problems with the masks of course, just that i have to wear one
01:02 thimbronion billymg: the white has has been "debating" requiring vaccinations for air travel.
01:03 thimbronion *whitehouse
01:03 billymg yeah, i've seen those headlines
01:03 billymg the trial balloons
01:07 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059232 << in linked piece at least i think this is somewhat unfair. i don't know how you got from author's "use cape (tranny-ism) against enemy (by gumming up his machine and wasting his resources)" to "gore the cape!"
01:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 13:39:51 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059182 << their offered concept of 'the enemy' i find has exactly 0 to do with reality. 100% cape/bait.
01:09 billymg in fact seemed to correctly identify enemy as anyone in the parasite class living off the efforts of others
01:11 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059251 << ain't arrestable offense but more or less required for meaningful employment (unless your parents can pay your tuition)
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01:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 15:04:38 asciilifeform: at the very least stop borrowing money. it aint an arrestable offense yet, even in the heart of the reich.
01:12 * billymg was fortunate enough to avoid this, via random inheritance from the timely death of a relative
01:14 thimbronion Wouldn't you want as much debt AND btc as possible?
01:16 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059253 << only if you mean "what ferrari cost in 1990 in nominal terms". i had to look it up but it seems like they were going for around $125k back then, so when you multiply by inflation that puts you right back into present day rolls royce / bugatti prices (afaik those still aren't plasticars)
01:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 15:06:57 asciilifeform: stop buying plasticars that cost what ferrari cost in 1990.
01:18 billymg thimbronion: that makes sense in theory, because your debt will inflate to ~0 in real value while your btc goes to the moon
01:20 billymg how that works in practice for someone who isn't properly usg-wotted i'm not sure
01:23 billymg and then there are the random market crashes, which i suspect get triggered when too many of the plebs have levered up
01:23 billymg so for me personally i just like the simplicity of no debt
01:29 billymg the rest of this list is all good
01:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 15:11:13 asciilifeform: desk flyers can stop working for sv corps any time they like. the fat pay is imaginary after subtracting rents, but -- i have nfi what drugs they take for this -- none of'em notice
01:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 15:08:53 asciilifeform: the other thing that's entirely 0cost, is to stop quaking in fear of imaginary monsters played by (cheap!) unemployed sad sacks. e.g. 'trannies' and the other demons from linked piece.
01:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 15:11:48 asciilifeform: stop contributing to faux 'political parties'. could go on, but why.
01:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 15:06:02 asciilifeform: can stop respecting 'ivy grads', buying their 'books', listening to 'experts'. this also not yet arrestable, and costs 0.
01:32 billymg re: the sv coders, what does asciilifeform think about something like this as an alternative to quitting?
01:33 billymg "Fortune companies and their international equivalents are worth billions and billions of dollars if not more. Getting hired at one of these places, doing as little work as you can get away with, and reinvesting their money in yourself and your family is an objective moral good."
01:33 asciilifeform billymg: aint that what erryone already does?
01:33 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, everyone except the 10% busting their ass to keep the lights on
01:34 asciilifeform aka 'slow rolling'. tho i hear that at sv, they have decimations where bottom xx% sacked quarterly. so perhaps will have to switch salt mines often if overdoing it
01:34 billymg asciilifeform: or larp as an unfireable class perhaps?
01:35 * billymg knows of only amazon and maybe netflix doing the annual stack rank cullings
01:35 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059305 << imho is a 'toy' humiliation, and crafted to make folx protest in an inexpensive and safe direction. 'mask -- humiliating.' ok, and paying 50% tax not humiliating? or ~80-90% if you include rent/mortgage -- not humiliating ?
01:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 20:57:16 billymg: the masks are by far the most in your face, humiliating example imo. whenever there's footage of elites at some gathering they're always maskless while the waiters are muzzled
01:36 billymg asciilifeform: actually, the switching saltmines each time you get busted strategy costs them even more money -- but also more of your time/effort
01:36 asciilifeform having your savings hoovered away by printing press -- not humiliating?
01:38 billymg asciilifeform: interesting, i hadn't considered that. so maybe in a year or two they "the people have spoken, no more masks" to cheers of "we did it reddit"
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01:38 billymg like pot and gay marriage
01:38 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059318 << 'must have degree' is -- at least in software biz -- disinfo. not 1 place asciilifeform ever worked in, asked after the diploma. believe or not.
01:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 21:11:45 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059251 << ain't arrestable offense but more or less required for meaningful employment (unless your parents can pay your tuition)
01:38 asciilifeform and regularly was in a brigade where was the only 1 with such a thing and no one missed it
01:39 billymg asciilifeform: yes but software biz really is the only place i know of that is like that
01:39 asciilifeform the honest trades (plumbing, repairs, construction) also likethat
01:40 asciilifeform pretty sure that in usa, the only profession where the diploma is actually mandatory -- is medicine
01:42 * billymg also doesn't need to be convinced of "keep your eyes on the goddamned money" -- whole reason behind his interest in btc in the first place
01:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059344 << entirely possible. but what i meant was that it (and then vaccine) is a toy humiliation: immediately distracted over9000 people from the slide into penury organized for'em by the moolahprinters
01:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 21:38:24 billymg: asciilifeform: interesting, i hadn't considered that. so maybe in a year or two they "the people have spoken, no more masks" to cheers of "we did it reddit"
01:43 asciilifeform and mask etc -- relatively safe to protest. try protesting rent.
01:44 billymg asciilifeform: i think symbolic humiliations matter as well. the more psychologically you're beaten down the weaker you are to resist the actual attacks
01:45 asciilifeform billymg: naturally can't speak for billymg et al, but what i've seen was folx feeling as if they actually finally could resist, and with feeling they 'won against reich' by sneaking into mask zone ungagged etc
01:46 asciilifeform i.e. punching bag.
01:46 billymg asciilifeform: that makes sense too, energy goes to mask evasion rather than tax evasion
01:46 asciilifeform aaaha.
01:47 billymg i can see it
01:47 billymg and then ditto with the vaccines
01:47 asciilifeform and the 'rightists' have yet to even approach the 'third eye opening' required to spit out the 1950s bridle of 'anticommunism' and realize that rent and usury are entirely same as 'ordinary' taxation
01:48 billymg fwiw a lot of these same people equally aware of blackrock buying up the suburbs and gates buying up farmland, etc.
01:48 asciilifeform that when yer taxed, it doesn't matter worth half a fuck ~who~ is doing it
01:48 asciilifeform billymg: aware -- but do they object in the general, rather than in the particular ?
01:48 billymg asciilifeform: they object, and as loudly and effectively as they can (which isn't much)
01:49 billymg i mean what do you do?
01:50 asciilifeform billymg: what some folx do, on acct of psychological quirk, is stockholm syndrome.
01:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 13:25:24 asciilifeform: anyway, the one where e.g. 'What did Lenin do? Exterminate the natural aristocracy of Russia ... Everybody but intelligent, conservative Russians of good families... ' etc
01:50 asciilifeform not usually manifests as fellatio of extinct orc nobility, tho, but moar typically as 'you too could build a fortune'
01:51 asciilifeform ( and see also )
01:51 dulapbot Logged on 2020-04-04 16:47:43 asciilifeform: without this psychological quirk, the whole circus would be quite impossible. phunphakt, e.g. auschwitz inmates collected pieces of german uniform to put on. 'feel like german'.
01:54 billymg asciilifeform: right, or as signpost put it, "*chan fascism is a type of porn"
01:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 16:54:51 signpost: upstack, this *chan fascism is a type of porn, not a coherent ideology.
01:55 asciilifeform billymg: the directly analogous people to the inmates are the 'startup' cargocultists
01:56 billymg asciilifeform: re: rent and usury, are you referring only to monopoly rents and interest rates, or the concepts in general?
01:57 asciilifeform billymg: usury in general. it leads inescapably to pricing life out of affordability to those who won't borrow.
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01:57 billymg usury is considered lending at rates above x% iirc, where x is something like 2-3%
01:58 billymg and used to be illegal maybe?
01:59 asciilifeform billymg: the monopolism of course is in play -- via supply constriction ('building codes'; and the fact that the reich rich can afford to buy infinitely many houses with printed money and keep'em empty, simply to keep plebes mortgaged in the remaining ones)
01:59 thimbronion And ... alcuin now has 496 byte black packets.
01:59 asciilifeform thimbronion: a++
02:00 asciilifeform billymg: see also re subj
02:00 billymg asciilifeform: as for rent, i understand why paying $5k/mo to real estate portfolio company is just another form of tax. but if you're young, and don't have the money to buy a house (without credit or at all), what other option is there besides renting?
02:01 asciilifeform 1917.
02:01 billymg so if you find a duplex owned by nice old lady and she rents you the other half for $500/mo, is that also evil and she should be tarred and feathered like the rest of them?
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02:02 asciilifeform understand, all housing in usa already belongs to the crown. simply, they're charging you ~100% of what you make, for it, and the old sovok didn't
02:02 asciilifeform billymg: funnily enuff 'old lady renting a garrett' was permitted ! my father at one time lived in one
02:02 asciilifeform overall the orc reich was over9000x less doctrinaire and rigid in practice than the american one.
02:03 billymg asciilifeform: any affiliation to the howard zinn book?
02:03 billymg (your link)
02:03 asciilifeform nfi, not familiar
02:03 asciilifeform had the thing bookmarked on acct of it having prices for commodore64 on release and various other historic techs
02:04 billymg "A People's History of the United States"
02:05 billymg was an entertaining read when i was younger, if i reread it i suspect it would seem like more obvious communist propaganda
02:05 * asciilifeform not read
02:05 asciilifeform the linked pg doesn't seen to indicate author, oddly.
02:06 asciilifeform seems reasonably well-researched in re prices tho, they're sourced from periodicals which can be found elsewhere
02:08 billymg asciilifeform: ah, yeah, the whole wtf happened in 1971
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02:08 asciilifeform aha.
02:09 asciilifeform btw this is the 'policeman in your head' swinging his truncheon. 1 of the protective programmings the lizards install in heads is 'use the smallholder as human shield'
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02:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 22:01:54 billymg: so if you find a duplex owned by nice old lady and she rents you the other half for $500/mo, is that also evil and she should be tarred and feathered like the rest of them?
02:10 billymg asciilifeform: dunno why i keep sticking up for this twitter crowd but that has to be one of the most heavily shared links in those circles
02:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 23:45:16 billymg: asciilifeform: there is a large group on twitter that is downright religious about "must store own btc priv keys or else you're a cuck"
02:10 * asciilifeform has encountered otherwise reasonable-seeming folx, in usa, who truly believed that private ownership of e.g. a toothbrush was forbidden in su
02:10 billymg my point being they seem to "get it"
02:10 asciilifeform billymg: which ? the 1971 pg?
02:11 billymg the 'wtf happened in 1971' site
02:11 asciilifeform a
02:11 asciilifeform the rub is that quite a few things happened, and 1) we don't know all of'em 2) of the ones known, don't know which -- causes, which -- effects
02:11 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059402 << makes sense
02:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 22:09:46 asciilifeform: btw this is the 'policeman in your head' swinging his truncheon. 1 of the protective programmings the lizards install in heads is 'use the smallholder as human shield'
02:12 * billymg bbl, dinner
02:12 * asciilifeform bbl, debuggism
~ 2 hours 25 minutes ~
04:37 vex I like the masks, strolling through the city like a fucking bankrobber. What a time to be alive.
04:40 vex Fishwraps headlined with "unmasked protestors"... that bit flipped quickly
~ 1 hours 38 minutes ~
06:18 punkman rent is fine, if you can also afford not to rent.
06:24 punkman re:usury, sorta funny how the "islamic banking" folks work around it
06:25 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059400 << before I clicked, thought it was gonna be site dedicated to end of Bretton Woods
06:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 22:08:42 billymg: asciilifeform: ah, yeah, the whole wtf happened in 1971
06:29 punkman cool colleciton of graphs, but kinda hard to build argument on top of fake GDP/Productivity/CPI/whatever data
06:29 punkman the more you move to the right of 1971, faker the data
06:32 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-22#1059297 << never heard the man talk. so he puts of fake accent on his podcasts? pretty funny
06:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-22 20:29:48 thimbronion: asciilifeform: also has fake slavic accent, if so.
06:38 punkman I read BAM few months ago, liked it.
~ 25 minutes ~
07:04 punkman he's romanian apparently https://twitter.com/costinalamariu
07:06 punkman https://www.takimag.com/contributor/costinalamariu/348/
07:06 punkman "Costin Vlad Alamariu moved to the United States from Romania at the age of ten; he has an undergraduate degree in mathematics from MIT, studied at Columbia and the Sorbonne, and has recently completed his doctorate at Yale University in the political science department"
07:07 punkman "he has taught at Yale and Emory, and is currently traveling in Europe and writing a book about the lives of tyrants in ancient Greece and Renaissance Italy."
~ 3 hours 27 minutes ~
10:34 punkman looking at my naive implementation, evil peer can rebroadcast all messages timestamped within 15min, always setting bounces=1, causing other peers to also keep rebroadcasting same messages,
10:36 punkman as receiver of these rebroadcasted messages, you can't tell who the evil peer is
10:38 punkman so I guess my Station needs to keep track of what message it has rebroadcast to which peer, and also what rebroadcast message Station has received from which peer
10:39 punkman first part for Station not to misbehave, second part to know which peers are misbehaving and warn operator
~ 2 hours 7 minutes ~
12:46 PeterL punkman: two things: 1) when you see the flood, you can drop the max_bounces to 1, then either it stops or $Bad_Peer is the only one sending and it is obvious
12:48 PeterL and 2) the messages will all appear as hearsay of the form $any_user($bad_peer):message , which will make it pretty obvious who is misbehaving
~ 18 minutes ~
13:06 PeterL although, this brings up a question, iiuc the peers displayed are only the ones with 1 bounce? if you have your bounce setting high, what would get displayed for a message from your L3, the first peer you see a message from? or anybody with bounces = 2?
~ 37 minutes ~
13:43 punkman PeterL: yes maxbounces=1 stops my Station from rebroadcasting anything that is not immediate msg. Must also not allow hearsay messages with bounces=0 of course.
13:45 punkman still not obvious who is doing it though
13:45 PeterL the name of who is doing it is right there in the parentheses
13:46 PeterL the maxbounces affects what you accept, not what you rebroadcast
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13:47 PeterL (if I understand correctly?)
13:47 punkman no because A sends m1_bounce=0 to B. B starts sending m1_bounce=1 at line rate to a subset of peers, the subset of peers starts rebroadcasting m1_bounce=2 to everyone else
13:47 punkman only subset of peers knows that it's B
13:48 punkman and everyone else thinks it's someone in subset of peers
13:49 punkman and it multiplies, B sends one packet to C, C will rebroadcast N packets
13:50 PeterL right, that is how it is supposed to work, and people de-dupe as they receive the same packet from multiple peers
13:51 punkman yes dedupe saves us from storage ballooning, but not from bandwidth/cpu ballooning
13:51 PeterL so in your exacmple who is the bad peer?
13:51 punkman B
13:51 PeterL well, once everybody has seen the message once they stop resend it
13:51 punkman you just arrived at my "solution"
13:52 PeterL I don't understand what you are trying to solve?
13:57 punkman it seems to me that we should "dedupe" red packets, in addition to dedupe of messages
13:59 PeterL isn't that the same thing?
14:01 punkman message is subset of red packet
14:02 PeterL right, and we expect roughly our entire peerset to each send us a red packet with the same message
14:03 PeterL but with the nonce and bounces, we should not get the same red packet twice
14:04 PeterL if a peer sends the same message twice in two different red packets, the second one gets dropped when you see you already have that message
14:14 punkman so we would only rebroadcast if it's first time we see message
14:14 punkman hmm guess that makes sense, will rethink
14:15 PeterL right (I thought that was obvious from having deduping?)
14:21 PeterL I thought you were describing a malicious peer that was rebroadcasting messages with altered timestamps to make it look like other people were trying to flood the network
14:25 asciilifeform punkman, PeterL : we only rebroadcast the first time we see a message !!
14:26 * asciilifeform thought this was 100% obvious from the doc -- apparently not ?
14:30 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-23#1059441 << and again, rebroadcasting takes place ~only~ if accepted (as validly signed AND not stale AND not seen previously message)
14:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-23 09:46:33 PeterL: the maxbounces affects what you accept, not what you rebroadcast
14:31 asciilifeform i.e. any packet containing a previously-seen message is treated exactly the same as a martian (with the possible exception of incrementing optional 'dupes' counter instead of 'martians')
14:31 punkman yes got confused looking at my code, although if we stop at 4.2.1 "7. The deduplication queue..." we don't get to the part where we count hearsay copies
14:32 asciilifeform in current draft, hearsay dupes are mandatorily counted and the count is displayed.
14:32 asciilifeform punkman: i wrote this part recently, so possibly you haven't seen it if were working from the 0xFE piece
14:32 asciilifeform (the current one is linked above)
14:33 asciilifeform and yes the text aint 100% consistent yet, i wrote new sections w/out much updating the old, much remains to be done there
14:33 asciilifeform ( and sadly atm not time to do it, grr )
14:34 punkman I'm not only counting, I also have counter carry a "got_immediate" flag
14:34 asciilifeform anyways dupes counted, but a given peer only counts as '1' for this purpose no matter how many times he sent the dupe (if he is broken somehow. an in-spec peer will never send same msg twice under any circumstances.)
14:34 punkman thinking how to implement the embargo now
14:36 punkman perhaps better to keep counter with set of peers instead of integer per message
14:38 punkman asciilifeform: if shalmaneser changes his handle to ShalmaneserTheGreat, does he keep same selfchain?
14:40 asciilifeform punkman: of course he does. chains are stored per-peer
14:40 asciilifeform handles are simply a thing a peer can have N of
14:40 asciilifeform (N >= 1)
14:41 punkman and a guest of shalmaneser would start his own selfchain, right?
14:41 asciilifeform correct
14:41 punkman so must track selfchain for off-wot hearsay guests
14:42 asciilifeform this is why i suggested that guests, bots, etc. run on separate instances of the station proggy
14:42 asciilifeform punkman: this is a good point actually, i haven't specified proper handling of chains in hearsay case
14:42 asciilifeform (in out-of-wot hearsay, concretely)
14:43 asciilifeform imho is not essential, one could live happily without attempting to process it at all
14:43 asciilifeform and in fact processing it is a potential storage exhaustion attack
14:44 asciilifeform ( imagine an l3 bozo sets up a lolscript to generate 1e9 handles and emit a msg with each )
14:44 punkman I guess we would expect stations with guests to rate limit their guests
14:45 * asciilifeform also not properly treated the subj. of rate limiting yet
14:45 * asciilifeform brb
14:45 punkman and perhaps also not let them spam different handles
~ 3 hours ~
17:45 asciilifeform punkman: re rate limits, see also.
17:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-10 15:34:04 asciilifeform: thinking about rate-limit -- a limit of e.g. 3 msg/min ~as displayed in console~ (importantly; rather than in general, which would impede multipath propagation) -- would prolly be reasonable. but not sure whether this belongs in algo spec.
17:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-10 15:50:45 asciilifeform: the important thing to note is that a net of say 100 people will contain quite a bit moar (largely dupe) traffic than you'd ever want in your console -- but still useful for multipath propagation/resilience. so any per-peer rate limit must affect only console imho.
17:47 asciilifeform to asciilifeform seems like this is actually easier to implement than seems at first: rate limit ~outgoing~ spew ; erry noad already can reject crapola at line rate (or ~oughta~ be able to, if operator is not a miser for hardware) so no special spew-rejection logic is req'd aside from for console
17:47 punkman 1 message per 20 seconds can be miserable
17:48 asciilifeform probably the Right Thing would be e.g. 100msg per 10min, 'chess-style'
17:48 asciilifeform permits fast responses, bot output, etc. while limiting 'burst pipe' puddle
~ 55 minutes ~
18:43 PeterL asciilifeform: what would you estimate the minimum hardware required for processing packets at line rate?
~ 30 minutes ~
19:14 asciilifeform PeterL: let's assume ethernet. so, in bytes, let's calculate 1 packet's mass: 5 (gap) + 4 (preamble) + 14 (eth header) + 20 (ipv4 hdr) + 8 (udp header) + 496 (pest) + 4 (ethernet crc) == 551
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19:15 asciilifeform standard gap is 12 iirc, and preamble is 8
19:15 asciilifeform but let's go with the 'tight' ones
19:16 asciilifeform 1e9 / 8*551 ~= 226860 packets/s, if all received packets match the 446byte length (ones which do not, you throw out immediately, they do not cost very much except in bw terms)
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19:18 asciilifeform a single cpu would need to process each packet inside ~4.41uS.
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19:19 asciilifeform on e.g. 3GHz cpu, that's ~13230 ticks.
19:20 asciilifeform rather tight, tho not patently impossible. but where the fuck are you even gonna find a 1core cpu nowadays.
19:21 asciilifeform i expect you'd have at least 8cores on reasonable box, which gives you ~105840 ticks to process a packet, imho entirely doable.
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19:21 asciilifeform PeterL: makes sense ?
19:21 asciilifeform i expect that the hardest piece to fit in this constraint will be the dupe check
19:22 PeterL makes sense, yeah
19:25 asciilifeform PeterL: if pestism catches on, will be very easy to bake a fpga prefilter, much cheaper (and lower mains current usage) than a beefy x86
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19:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-19 16:04:04 asciilifeform: i also specifically like the idea of a non-numbertheoretical basis for the signatures -- will make it considerably easier to implement in fpga for baking dedicated (hardware) line-rate prefilters.
19:26 * asciilifeform specifically aiming from the start to make this cleanly doable
19:27 asciilifeform grr did i say 446
19:28 asciilifeform the figures are correct ( for 496 , which is what they weight in current draft ).
19:28 asciilifeform typo.
19:29 asciilifeform anyways this is the method to estimate 'can eat at line rate?' on given iron.
19:29 asciilifeform in practice of course you will not have 100% of avail. cpu cycles usable for pest!
19:30 asciilifeform ( not to mention, some parallel process has to actually carry on with the packets which passed the filter )
19:31 asciilifeform goes without saying that the thing will need to be implemented ~not~ in a interpreted lang, or 1 with gc, if you want line-rate performance !!
19:36 PeterL I think the library thimbronion found specifically came with a caveat "do not use this if you need it to be fast"
19:36 asciilifeform PeterL: prototype aha
19:37 PeterL I guess it only needs to go that fast if you actually saturating the line
19:37 asciilifeform for use in-anger will need not only compiled lang but i suspect to shave cycles (like this)
19:40 asciilifeform PeterL: the cure for ddos as offered in pest is not simply 'can process at nic line rate' but also the ease of switching to fallback line in flight (all you gotta do is to start sending from it, and peers will start replying there as soon as each receives even 1 valid packet from said new line)
19:41 asciilifeform and, as corrolary, the ease of spreading legitimate traffic over a block of N ips you control
19:41 asciilifeform the human operators do not need to be woken up and asked to reconfig anyffin
19:42 asciilifeform aaaand there's the fact that an outsider won't even know where to direct ddos if you have strong opsec.
19:44 asciilifeform so in fact you have three simultaneous nukes, ~any 1 of which~ imho readily cures ddosism.
19:46 asciilifeform will also add that a machine which cannot keep up with the line rate, is still usable if you simply constrict the line. it isn't as if packets won't be dropped in a ddos scenario anyway. you have 'getdata' for retransmission requests, thing will simply behave as a slow modem.
19:47 asciilifeform so you have too few cycles on given iron? ok, simply means that you need to throw away certain % of 496b packets without eating'em. not fatal.
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19:47 asciilifeform peer will do the getdata cycle, wait his turn, etc
19:47 * asciilifeform bbl
19:53 PeterL also, if your n peers each send you the message, and you drop a %, you will still get most messages. direct messages will be affected though
19:54 asciilifeform PeterL: direct messages will go through same getdata cycle , if 1 goes missing, as others
19:56 * asciilifeform genuinely bbl
20:01 punkman if we detect a fork, do we embargo (for 1 sec, more?) and try to resolve by getdata missing messages
~ 1 hours 39 minutes ~
21:40 asciilifeform punkman: you're thinking of a break in the chain (rather than fork per se) -- and i oughta treat the cases separately in the doc
21:40 asciilifeform ( a fork is when your station picks up ~2 or more~ known continuations of a chain )
21:41 asciilifeform a break otoh is simply when the item pointed to by selfchain or netchain aint in the cache
21:41 asciilifeform ( incl. the zero case )
21:53 asciilifeform upstack, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-23#1059507 << note that this example is for a gigabit line. for e.g. 100Mbit, divide by 10, and so forth
21:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-23 15:16:44 asciilifeform: 1e9 / 8*551 ~= 226860 packets/s, if all received packets match the 446byte length (ones which do not, you throw out immediately, they do not cost very much except in bw terms)
~ 31 minutes ~
22:24 thimbronion PeterL: there is are also mcrypt bindings for python. For now it seems like a hassle to import that dependency.
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