Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-09-11 | 2021-09-13 →
01:48 billymg voxday is back up at voxday.net, on what looks to be self-hosted wordpress. perhaps even reading the logs?
01:48 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-08 17:01:56 billymg: it seems like a missed opportunity. i keep waiting for someone like BAP or Vox to come out and say "i've seen the light, we need to get fucking organized with the tools we use to communicate"
01:48 billymg "If you’re on the cloud, you’d better get off it and back onto your own metal as soon as possible. Putting your own data on other people’s machines and relying on the kindness of strangers was always a hideously stupid idea."
~ 38 minutes ~
02:27 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057525 << oblig.naggum!
02:27 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 14:03:41 billymg: the default is to start life as a normie, some can break out of it, some can't (or won't)
02:27 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-06-10 asciilifeform: '...what I find among the modern novices is that they do not feel the same way about the experts -- they want an expert-free world where their ignorance is not painful, where their inexperience is not used against them, where they get all the jokes, where nobody uses literary references that elude them, where every one of their ideas is accepted by their peers as just as novel as they think it is...'
02:29 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057520 << how'bout marketing also for vtron and FG, lol
02:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 14:01:55 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057421 << i enjoyed this, pretty good as a normie marketing campaign for pest too imo
02:30 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057528 << recall what they turned e.g. pgp into
02:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 14:06:32 signpost: if normies end up making it onto thinking-man-net, great! can't be a design goal of the thing though, or in comes "the consumer has come to expect"
02:30 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057533 << indeed -- and esp. given no tcp overhead
02:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 14:09:19 signpost: nah, online-codes provides for a superior swarm-spread of large binwads
02:32 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057547 << oblig. asciilifeform circa 2009.
02:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 21:48:41 billymg: "If you’re on the cloud, you’d better get off it and back onto your own metal as soon as possible. Putting your own data on other people’s machines and relying on the kindness of strangers was always a hideously stupid idea."
02:34 asciilifeform apropos, it'd be trivial to serve http (or a successor protocol) via pest.
02:34 asciilifeform (tho aint clear to asciilifeform who, if anyone, is ready for this...)
02:40 asciilifeform at some pt even 'own metal' won't 100% help if it's serving to allcomers incl. gestapo.
02:41 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057543 << y'know bingoboingo, apparently there is >1 solution to this. for instance asciilifeform doesn't inhabit any spaces infested with bots (incl. meatbots)
02:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 17:22:23 scoopbot: New post on Bingology - The Blog of Aaron 'BingoBoingo' Rogier: Dead Internet Theory And Searching For The Sticky
02:41 * asciilifeform bbl
~ 37 minutes ~
03:18 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057553 << which is why it's crucial to not compromise anything for the normie (it sounds like we're all in agreement on this tbh)
03:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 22:30:01 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057528 << recall what they turned e.g. pgp into
03:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 14:07:29 billymg: signpost: of course, would never suggest to compromise anything (ANYTHING) for the normie
03:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 14:05:23 signpost: billymg: sequencing matters, lest normie uptake corrupt the ability for thinking men to have their freedom.
03:20 asciilifeform billymg: very easy to see re: particular softs and the like; moar subtle rot re ~concepts~ (consider what 'eternal september' did to the net. theoretically we have same net; in practice...)
03:21 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057551 << it might not have been obvious but i didn't mean market to the bubble wrap crowd, but rather the thinking people who i assume are out there groping around in the dark for something, anything, that looks like a solution
03:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 22:29:41 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057520 << how'bout marketing also for vtron and FG, lol
03:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-07 16:16:22 bingoboingo: Most recent is just popping bubble wrap. Apparently sounds from normal everyday objects is a thing.
03:23 asciilifeform billymg: asciilifeform aint against trying. simply still, i suppose, bitter taste from the weev episode.
03:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 23:07:46 asciilifeform: ^ thread where no less than weev refused to host at pizarro. because ohnoez, mah dns, etc
03:24 billymg asciilifeform: i do think there's a part of me, given career background, that wants to be a "software populist" -- i'll admit that. but i do consciously challenge myself now on every thought i have of how to "win hearts and minds"
03:26 billymg perhaps there really is zero intelligent life that hasn't already wandered in here at some point, but i don't think that's the case and so i think having some type of working funnel could be beneficial
03:26 asciilifeform billymg: arguably the 'funnel' is easier just nao then ever been
03:27 asciilifeform *than
03:28 billymg asciilifeform: easier now because conditions in reich even worse?
03:28 asciilifeform billymg: i meant simply that is very easy to connect to dulapnet. even the rizzo fella, who evidently never heard of irc, managed
03:29 billymg ah
03:30 asciilifeform asciilifeform's earlier point probably worth expanding on. observe how e.g. bitcoin (the actual kind, where you actually hold yer privkeys) has ~to this day~ barely any measurable 'mass uptake'. despite arbitrarily raging totalitarian reich
03:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-10 13:51:02 asciilifeform: imho the concept of 'messianic' technologies is extremely misguided. by itself even a breakthrough like pgp is entirely inert.
03:31 asciilifeform because 'ohnoez i might lose key' 'ohnoez i might format own hdd by farting on wrong key' etc
03:32 asciilifeform atm there aint even an operating system to give to the hypothetical 'intelligent novice'.
03:33 billymg asciilifeform: certainly not where i assumed btc would be when first took seriously back in '14. i assumed the "hold your own keys so the lizards can't steal from you" would be obvious to all but the dumbest of redditards
03:34 asciilifeform billymg: rather like so many folx assumed 'everyone will make a pgp pubkey -- who wouldn't want to be able to communicate & sign?'
03:34 asciilifeform then turns out, battery chickens dun need pgp.
03:34 asciilifeform ( tho can sometimes be persuaded to 'i-can't-believe-it's-not-pgp' (keybase, etc) )
03:36 asciilifeform the power of delusion is actually greater than of actual cure, for some purposes. consider how the chinese in fact still cross ru border , risking their arse, to hunt siberian tiger.
03:37 asciilifeform or similar morons -- rhino, in africa. why? 'make cock stand' 'but there's xyzpharma' answer : the tiger cocks ~mythically~ 'perma-cure'.
03:37 asciilifeform mythical cure -- more attractive than working spampharma.
03:38 asciilifeform hunt for the tiger's cock delivers moar of what tlp called 'feeling like a trader'
03:38 asciilifeform (i.e. what ted kaczynski called 'the power process')
03:40 billymg i thought kaczynski was speaking of a real drive, one that holding one's own keys would satisfy more than gaming a number on a kyc casino
03:40 asciilifeform billymg: the drive, turns out, is satisfied by the path, not the destination.
03:40 asciilifeform the mystical ritual gives, typically, moar scenic 'path'.
03:42 asciilifeform btw it aint about a lack of technical knowledge, either. asciilifeform very recently again encountered programmers (and not 19yo) who knew about pgp, but still 'i'ma use protonmail! convenient!'
03:42 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-05 15:02:46 asciilifeform: or b/w gpg and heathen idiocies a la 'protonmail' & similar
03:42 * billymg feels that fighting with linuxes, devising schemes to store secrets, developing networks with whom to trade, etc. is quite the scenic route in itself
03:43 billymg and to me at least, more rewarding than would be flipping NFTs on coinbase
03:45 billymg asciilifeform: there is a large group on twitter that is downright religious about "must store own btc priv keys or else you're a cuck"
03:45 asciilifeform billymg: prolly still prb on mswin, to a man. but at least sumthing.
03:46 billymg afaik same group happy to use keybase, protonmail, etc., sure, but imo they're the target demographic for vtrons and pestrc networks
03:46 billymg yes, prb too
03:47 asciilifeform if someone (e.g. billymg) ends up 'taking up the white man's burden' and teaching such folx to pest etc -- a++.
03:48 billymg for me, order was: 1) discover btc, 2) discover logs, 3) realize ~everything to do with computing as is practiced in silicon valley is broken
03:48 asciilifeform simply noting that asciilifeform 1) doesn't expect results from this 2) actively avoids devising any schemes contingent on the interest or participation of the redditus
03:49 * asciilifeform wouldn't mind to be pleasantly surprised, there
03:49 billymg asciilifeform: i finished digesting your spec this morning, i might take a stab at doing some diagrams of how i visualize the moving parts
03:49 asciilifeform a++
03:49 asciilifeform keep in mind that it aint 100% complete tho
03:50 billymg yup, understood
03:50 * asciilifeform currently fiddling w/ 0xFD, sadly not yet ready to vpatch
03:52 billymg asciilifeform: is there a reason behind using the command 'PRIVMSG' in pest instead of 'MSG'?
03:52 asciilifeform billymg: observe what section it's in
03:52 asciilifeform billymg: it's what irc messages look like internally. see logotron/bot.py.
03:53 asciilifeform see rfc1459 sect. 4.4.1.
03:54 billymg aha
03:54 billymg so irctrons just map msg to privmsg
03:54 asciilifeform aha
03:54 billymg is key/unkey also part of irc spec?
03:54 asciilifeform mno
03:54 billymg (that wording felt a bit awkward to me)
03:54 asciilifeform again observe which section is in
03:55 asciilifeform 2.5.2. IRC-Compatible Commands consists strictly of rfc1459 commands.
03:56 billymg ohh, ok i see now what you meant by "which section it's in" (one for irc-compat, one unique to pest)
03:56 asciilifeform 2.5.1. Control Commands are proprietary to pest
03:56 asciilifeform aha
03:56 * asciilifeform thinking they oughta be in opposite order
03:57 billymg in that case i think ADDKEY / DELKEY would be clearer
03:57 billymg and map closer to what happens underneath
03:58 asciilifeform initial unpublished draft had 'addkey'/'rmkey' but i like the consistency of 'unkey'/'unpeer'/'ungag'/'unaka'
03:59 asciilifeform ( and the compactness of 'key' 'peer' vs 'addkey' 'addpeer' etc )
04:00 * asciilifeform open to persuasion on subj, but has difficulty justifying why to make folx type longer command
04:00 billymg i noticed that pattern also, but i thought it worked with 'peer' and 'pause' because those work as verbs, e.g. "to peer with someone" means to add them as a peer
04:00 billymg or to pause something
04:00 billymg but 'key' didn't fit in the same way
04:01 asciilifeform actually in 100yo+ lit cipher machines are referred to as 'keyed' or 'unkeyed'
04:01 asciilifeform and to this day
04:02 billymg aha, yes, but the use there is different
04:02 billymg "one sec, i need to key in your number"
04:02 asciilifeform mno, not 'key in'. but 'key'.
04:03 asciilifeform e.g. in usg lit, 'this device is unclassified when unkeyed'
04:03 billymg asciilifeform: hmm, in that example meaning "unlocked"?
04:03 asciilifeform mno
04:03 asciilifeform meaning, not containing a cipherkey.
04:04 asciilifeform (in whatever designated receptacle for same)
04:04 billymg ahh, hmm. i admit i wasn't familiar with that usage before
04:05 asciilifeform example usage in reich: '... The device itself is an UNCLASSIFIED controlled cryptographic item (CCI) as long as it is unkeyed. When keyed, it assumes the classification level of the key in use. ' etc
04:08 billymg interesting, i guess it works pretty well then for what it describes
04:09 * asciilifeform genuinely bbl
~ 4 hours 10 minutes ~
08:19 punkman interesting background on this company we all know now https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/
08:19 punkman "mRNA is like software: You can just turn the crank and get a lot of products going into development."
08:21 punkman "Yet Moderna could not make its therapy work, former employees and collaborators said. The safe dose was too weak, and repeat injections of a dose strong enough to be effective had troubling effects on the liver in animal studies."
~ 2 hours 51 minutes ~
11:13 punkman lol https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/10/covid-19-complicates-9-11-anniversary-effect/
~ 4 hours 55 minutes ~
16:08 signpost most of the shrinks belong in prison.
16:16 signpost asciilifeform: re-digesting pest. it comes to mind that were the station aware of wot ratings, it could weight the capacity it's willing to dedicate to each peering, but I think this is something to deal with once problem's had, if at all.
16:16 * signpost doesn't wish to overcomplicate things, just pointing out the area of potential improvement.
16:17 signpost I am more willing to dedicate repeater capacity to your packets than some newb I let peer up for the first time.
16:18 signpost were one to implement a pest node with an interface from which to extract usage, and with which to adjust capacity allocations, the rest can be handled by some other program, as simple or complicated as one wants.
16:18 signpost again. totally fine to leave for later. can first invent a bed and then discuss what kinds of sheets are desired.
16:19 * signpost can imagine future scenarios where someone important "talking" absolutely *must* get through.
16:21 * signpost reads on
16:21 signpost am I correct that PAUSE means "ignore the output of this peer and do not forward"?
16:22 signpost how does this differ with GAG/UNGAG?
16:24 * signpost loves the ACHTUNG/SCRAM mechanism for honorable death
16:28 signpost occurs to me that involving intentionally opposable messages in some manner might remove the need for manual intervention when e.g. self-chain forks happen.
16:30 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057658 << direct support for wot is definitely part of asciilifeform's picture of the thing. queue prioritization (beyond 'in the back / in the front') has considerable overhead tho, so only makes sense if the traffic volume in fact justifies it
16:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 12:16:13 signpost: asciilifeform: re-digesting pest. it comes to mind that were the station aware of wot ratings, it could weight the capacity it's willing to dedicate to each peering, but I think this is something to deal with once problem's had, if at all.
16:30 signpost indeed. merely pointing out areas where interesting problems arise. it's good to let interesting problems happen first, before trying to solve.
16:30 asciilifeform signpost: difficult to include opposable-anything directly in the protocol w/out bringing in rsa
16:32 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057666 << great question -- (UN)PAUSE is for a peer; (UN)GAG is for any message in general incl. hearsay. currently they're uncoupled, but possibly some kinda coupling is justified
16:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 12:22:20 signpost: how does this differ with GAG/UNGAG?
16:33 asciilifeform i.e. unpeering w/out gagging will still have you picking up same thing as hearsay if even one peer still peers with $victim
16:33 asciilifeform gag == killfile functionality for messages
16:33 signpost ah. one's "I wish to no longer drink from this pipe for now", and other "I wish to hear nothing of this $derp"
16:33 signpost ?
16:33 asciilifeform correct
16:33 signpost makes sense.
16:34 asciilifeform not only 'hear nothing' but 'not rebroadcast' also
16:34 asciilifeform i.e. messages matching a speaker in the killfile get dropped after decoding
16:37 signpost regarding netchain, seems like threading comes in via choosing to specify an older broadcast message, rather than most recent
16:37 asciilifeform aha
16:37 signpost (this is mighty cool protocolization of the hyperlink backreferences currently used)
16:37 asciilifeform not specified atm because no irc client supports any such thing
16:37 signpost yup
16:37 asciilifeform but it's why i put it there.
16:38 asciilifeform signpost: on asciilifeform's open-problems list, currently : 1) what's the optimum way to do acks? 2) what's a reasonable way to handle forks ? (trigger; indication; and resolution) ?
16:38 * asciilifeform not very happy with the current mechanism
16:39 asciilifeform ( there's this, but still leaves questions )
16:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 11:51:15 asciilifeform: also reworking the 'fork' handling mechanism, in light of above -- simply because your station was switched off for a day does not mean that it oughta mark all yer peers as forked -- if it can successfully retrieve unbroken selfchains for all of'em
16:40 signpost were the netchain used in UI you'd notice that suddenly folks that were agreeing on netchain suddenly forking off into chunks of the conversation
16:40 signpost not distinguishable from them choosing to address different parts of the conversation, and it's unclear if a distinction is needed.
16:41 asciilifeform one can still sort by time on ui end
16:41 signpost they are in either case talking about what they're referencing, and in both cases the result is an accurate view of how coherent the convo has been.
16:41 asciilifeform aha.
16:41 asciilifeform 'netchain' is simply a riff on usenet's original representation.
16:42 signpost can perhaps draw lines along the left gutter to show how much or little agreement there is on line-of-history, or one could dream up lots of other representations
16:43 * signpost likes the idea that the thing shows exactly wtf has passed through the eye of the station without further interpretation/inference
16:43 * asciilifeform intended, in 'pest', to make a kind of 'construction kit' for interesting protocols -- can be extended for wot, warez, hypothetically even distributed video hosting, telephones, other exotica
16:43 signpost indeed, all that oughta be achievable
16:44 signpost regarding forks, can I simply getdata my peers for the history I've missed?
16:44 asciilifeform that's the point of getdata, yes. but not guaranteed to get the sought item (or to get it in time)
16:45 signpost if your friends don't want to catch you up, seems like you're forked indeed
16:45 asciilifeform you gotta time it out at some pt and declare $peer forked, if can't get an unbroken selfchain for him w/ getdata
16:45 asciilifeform signpost: not necessarily 'don't want', can be vagaries of the net, that no one answered in time
16:45 signpost this is because getdata pulls things from the cache, right?
16:45 signpost which times out?
16:46 asciilifeform even let's suppose everyone stores infinite log.
16:46 asciilifeform the ~emitter~ of the getdata (i.e. the station that needs to ask for the missing msgs) has to time out at some point
16:47 asciilifeform because otherwise, what, will embargo every incoming message from that peer, forever, until someone deigns to answer..?
16:47 signpost this is why sync order never really made sense to me in trb, seems backwards
16:47 signpost why not work backwards from what you're seeing in the present moment, assuming your peers are friends. which in this case they are.
16:47 asciilifeform signpost: in trb was as it was because erryone could agree on block 0
16:47 signpost "just saw $x, plz gimmeh block parent of $x"
16:47 signpost when not peered with friends, better yeah, start from dawn of history
16:48 signpost and if your friends are all wrong about what tip of history is, you're fucked for reasons entirely other than pest-tronics
16:48 asciilifeform signpost: think about it for a sec, it is trivial to fabricate infinitely many paths backwards to the genesis block. there'd be no possibility of even the concept of a canonical one, if sync worked backwards.
16:48 asciilifeform (this in re bitcoin strictly! not pest, lol)
16:49 * signpost goes and grunts at the section on netchain again
16:50 * asciilifeform will return shortly.
16:51 signpost trying to wrap my head around whether there's such thing as a real line of history here from which one can be forked.
16:57 signpost with a direct peer, it seems I should be able, just like in a phone conversation that temporarily loses connection, "hey buddy, I lost ya for a moment. what did you say?"
16:58 signpost and if you give me a line of packets that never meets up with what I caught previously, I start to wonder indeed what's up with asciilifeform
16:58 signpost or with the wire between us. it's actionable signal if this happens
16:59 punkman I think getdata should be for "I lost ya for a moment", not for catching up with weeks of chat
16:59 punkman could have different mechanism for importing months' worth of chat from friend's archive
17:01 signpost punkman: yeah, and without all messages being signed, you're really left with line of history being no more specific than "this is what was said before punkman"
17:01 signpost cannot be said what was said before god
17:01 signpost I don't think there's any need to try to construct such a god either.
17:02 * signpost will afk for a bit then grunt more of this into head.
17:02 punkman lack of public keys requires weird contortions
17:04 signpost dunno it's undesirable. you have pretty good assurance that your buddy said w/e if you're directly peered.
17:04 signpost if you want to swear, stick signed material into the chatternet
~ 24 minutes ~
17:28 asciilifeform punkman: the whole protocol is one big 'weird contortion' around the fact that we can't do rsa at line rate but 'want to play anyway because fuckerryone'
17:31 asciilifeform asciilifeform's scheme does not try to do the impossible (e.g. opposable signatures at line rate on pc) but next best thing -- nomoar ddos (reject at Gb/s easily on even 8core box; agnostic of ip, so if you have 9000 nics -- you're in biznis for so long as ~1~ can send/receive packets; rejection of replays; and finally, you get to have a ~reasonable~ if not perfect idea that you're talking at time T to same person as a
17:31 asciilifeform t T-1.)
17:32 asciilifeform not a replacement for opposable gpg-type signatures by any means. but imho enuff to get the fuck off ddos-and-mitm-net.
17:33 asciilifeform upstack -- forgot to mention -- there's the problem of in-wot-hearsay. 99.999% of it will be completely useless 100% of the time ;
17:33 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 12:38:13 asciilifeform: signpost: on asciilifeform's open-problems list, currently : 1) what's the optimum way to do acks? 2) what's a reasonable way to handle forks ? (trigger; indication; and resolution) ?
17:34 asciilifeform thing needs a rejection mechanism for it, and not merely the simplistic one in 0xFE.
17:34 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 11:52:56 asciilifeform: and, relatedly: if we have ACKs, then possibly oughta reject in-wot hearsay pertaining to a 'live' peer, categorically ? (how then define 'live' ? when to accept in-wot hearsay again ?)
17:34 * asciilifeform will brb
~ 17 minutes ~
17:51 billymg asciilifeform: question re: spec, in 4.1.2.3, when a message is rebroadcast up to the bounces limit, does this include the originator of the message (who also receives an ACK/receipt)? or would it only be rebroadcast to every WOT peer excluding the originator of the message?
17:56 punkman billymg: no ACK for broadcast messages, unless next version adds it
18:01 billymg punkman: in 4.1.1 Common Prologue for All Packets, step 9 mentions the ACK behavior. that's what led me to believe it would occur for both broadcast and direct messages
18:12 punkman billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057496
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 12:36:45 asciilifeform: signpost: imho broadcasts oughtn't get ack'd
18:12 billymg punkman: ah, apologies, i must have missed that in the discussion
18:13 billymg ty
18:13 punkman went to look 4.1.1 and thought wtf, this is not "Common prologue...", then saw that under 4.2 it starts with 4.1.1 again
18:14 billymg punkman: ha, yeah, known bug
18:14 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-08 13:28:30 asciilifeform: re 0xFE -- lulzily no one noticed that 4.1 and 4.2 numbering is entirely fucked.
18:20 punkman suppose I want to send a paragraph-sized quote that needs 3x320 bytes, if first message said "1 of 3", then station could delay sending to IRC client, until it has all 3 parts gathered.
18:21 punkman so you don't get interruptions inbetween longer messages. same for bot answers with many lines
~ 1 hours 9 minutes ~
19:30 punkman https://medium.com/1kxnetwork/blockchain-bridges-5db6afac44f8 "there are over 40 different bridge projects." still wondering who the fuck uses all these things
~ 36 minutes ~
20:07 asciilifeform meanwhile in familiar faces !
20:09 asciilifeform punkman: not sure why to delay sending; the thing to do might be to delay display (on receiver end) for a multiparter. but not sure whether the req'd complexity is a net gain
20:09 asciilifeform (realize that sending the frags together would not guarantee their arrival together anywhere)
20:10 * asciilifeform suspects that all of this can be accomplished with existing spec's selfchain/netchain
20:13 punkman asciilifeform: delay display (on receiver end) << yes this is what I meant
20:14 punkman and if receiver doesn't get N of N messages in say 5 seconds, then can start displaying anyway
20:16 punkman if you send 3of3 first, the selfchain pointing to 2of3, then send 2of2, selfchain pointing to 1of3, you get an approximation of this
20:16 asciilifeform ^ imho is the Right Thing
20:17 asciilifeform when using conventional irc client as the control head though, you can only make a chain of length 2
20:17 asciilifeform (given as irc permits 512byte, and that includes the msdos-style 2-char line end)
20:17 asciilifeform plug the string PRIVMSG and etc
20:18 punkman hmm indeed, chunking at IRC client side is not in our control
20:19 asciilifeform a hypothetical irc-free implementation could emit chains of any length you like
20:19 asciilifeform but we aint there yet
~ 3 hours 2 minutes ~
23:21 asciilifeform thinking again about 'getdata' : this won't work as given. because if timestamp indicates 'stale' (>15min in the past) the answer to the 'getdata' will be tossed.
23:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 11:49:42 asciilifeform: for 'getdata', my current approach is: stations have a dedupe buffer (as given in 0xFE) but this is merely a 15min.-long subset of a larger (up to operator) buffer which can be used to answer 'getdata's.
23:21 asciilifeform presently i can think of exactly 2 solutions :
23:22 asciilifeform a) TWO timestamps, one concerning a packet, and the other -- the message therein; the former must be 'fresh', the latter -- could be an ancient msg sent as a response to getdata. this is imho a horrid kludge.
23:22 asciilifeform b) ONLY <15min old msgs can be requested in a 'getdata'.
23:23 asciilifeform i.e.
23:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 12:59:04 punkman: I think getdata should be for "I lost ya for a moment", not for catching up with weeks of chat
23:24 asciilifeform and yes (b) means that if yer station loses its net connection for >15min (or potentially even smaller interval) you lose track of all chains.
23:24 asciilifeform the obvious advice is 'don't do that'.
23:25 asciilifeform (a) is imho ridiculous and mentioned strictly for completeness.
23:28 asciilifeform ... this is more of a problem than seems at first. consider the case where your station loses connectivity for a spell. you notice after coupla hrs and find out that you sent your last 10 msgs into the void, they went nowhere.
23:29 asciilifeform your peers notice that your self/net chains are outta sync. they request the missing msgs but lolno, because they're old.
23:30 * asciilifeform thinking further, there's 0 point to there being such a thing as a fork alert re a ~direct peer~.
23:30 asciilifeform the only point of the selfchain with direct peer is to be able to request a missing msg in the event of packet loss.
23:31 asciilifeform the case where selfchain is important, is the 'hearsay' case.
23:32 asciilifeform so far the only solution asciilifeform can think of, is 'pest is not for casualtards who don't have 24/7 fiber. if you don't have at home, get a box in a dc.'
23:32 asciilifeform there simply should not be such a thing as a >15min outage.
23:32 asciilifeform who can think of a better/moar-inclusive solution -- plox to write in.
23:32 * asciilifeform bbl
~ 16 minutes ~
23:49 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057181 I accept comments, but not by automated form.
23:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-10 08:59:32 PeterL: verisimilitude: have you thought of adding comment functionality to your blog?
23:50 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057182 The idea is it uses multiple copies in a way which prevents tampering from reasonably happening, without a hash checksum or whatnot.
23:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-10 09:01:28 PeterL: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-09#1057145 << You say your scheme is ideal, but after reading the article I am not sure what your scheme is or how it helps anything?
23:56 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057543 We've had similar ideas, bingoboingo; why make smart machines when making others act like dumb machines is so much easier?
23:56 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 17:22:23 scoopbot: New post on Bingology - The Blog of Aaron 'BingoBoingo' Rogier: Dead Internet Theory And Searching For The Sticky
23:57 bingoboingo verisimilitude: Maybe? Just I'm not sure what to do with it and you seem to have ideas.
23:57 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057633 Keep the consistency; it's pleasant.
23:57 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-11 23:58:05 asciilifeform: initial unpublished draft had 'addkey'/'rmkey' but i like the consistency of 'unkey'/'unpeer'/'ungag'/'unaka'
23:58 verisimilitude It's more of an issue on anonymous forums, bingoboingo, where it's much easier to plug a machine in.
23:58 verisimilitude The larger forums are overrun by it.
23:59 verisimilitude Topic is one protection; about the only product one can praise without suspicion is a specialized book, preferably with a dead author.
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