#asciilifeform | 2021-09-07

ACHTUNG, panzers! thimbronion , signpost , verisimilitude , et al : v. 0xFE.

02:01

reworded, expanded things that needed to be expanded, cut verbosity where found possible to do so.

02:02

scoopbot

New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFE.

~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~

03:21

thimbronion

asciilifeform: if I understand the spec properly, anything coming from a station is only to be associated with one identity? So we won't expect to be handling multiple nicks signed into a single station?

03:22

thimbronion

coming from = originating from and not something relayed

~ 27 minutes ~

03:50

thimbronion: multiple nicks can certainly emerge from a given station. they can be aliases defined on receiver's end via AKA and then will show up as 'immediate' message ;

03:50

in any other case they will show up as a 'hearsay'.

03:51

thimbronion: it is certainly possible to operate bots or guests through a station.

↖ ↖

03:53

so, to elaborate, if you have only 'asciilifeform' for me next to my wot key, but i switch my nick to 'bzzrpphft', you will see 'bzzrpphft(asciilifeform): foo...' when i speak, just as if bzzrpphft were a peer of mine but not of yours and were being relayed.

03:54

(your station always knows that it was my station that sent the message -- because it was our shared key which verified the packet.)

03:54

thimbronion: lemme know if this makes sense, if not i can give further example.

03:54

and i also rec that thimbronion and erryone else throw out the 1st draft and work from 0xFE, it is imho much clearer.

03:56

*

asciilifeform must bbl

~ 21 minutes ~

04:17

asciilifeform: is there something to gain by trying keys at random in 4.1.1? you would know which key a given peer uses, unless they send from new unknown IP.

04:26

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-06#1056616 << wget can be annoying/useless sometimes, https://github.com/ArchiveTeam/wpull is neat replacement

04:26

Logged on 2021-09-06 16:33:39 asciilifeform: punkman: at one time i thought this, then realized that sites that dunwork w/ plain wget are just about 100% liquishit and not really needed for anyffin

~ 4 hours 4 minutes ~

08:31

asciilifeform: a couple of simplistic nitpick attempts re pest_FE

08:31

did you mean ~web~ of trust?

08:32

channel name is specified somewhat incompatible to the irc spec, where three character codes are verboten. (on a side note, i didn't expect irc spec to be that liberal -- newlines or, say, vertical tabs in a channel name?) is this as you intended?

~ 2 hours 10 minutes ~

10:43

gregory4

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-06#1056608 << you might recall that Curtis Yarvin once proposed something similar.

10:43

Logged on 2021-09-06 13:26:17 asciilifeform: ... the 'try to index entire planet' search engines not only suck, but -- more direly -- have irresistible incentive to suck. fuck'em with a thermal lance.

10:55

curtis trying this internet dating thing https://graymirror.substack.com/p/uncle-yarv-0-dating-call

~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~

12:05

PeterL

asciilifeform: in the pest spec, section 4.1.1.9, "identical packet echoed back" refers to an identical "red packet", not an identical "black packet", yes? And would the "bounce" field be incremented in that case?

12:06

PeterL

regarding rebroadcasting, the originator of a message is not escluded from being sent the rebroadcast, correct?

12:11

PeterL

s/escluded/excluded

~ 58 minutes ~

13:09

jonsykkel

http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051#selection-3775.24-3787.1 << under/overflow here are bool outputs, shouldnt they sinply be putted directly in flag

~ 19 minutes ~

13:29

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056631 << notion is to reduce info leakage via timing.

13:29

Logged on 2021-09-07 00:17:44 punkman: asciilifeform: is there something to gain by trying keys at random in 4.1.1? you would know which key a given peer uses, unless they send from new unknown IP.

13:29

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056635 << indeed! interesting typo ( asciilifeform's fingers somehow produced 'wall...' ! )

13:29

Logged on 2021-09-07 04:31:37 cgra: did you mean ~web~ of trust?

13:30

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056636 << in orig. draft 0xFF was to simply require '#pest' but imho this is pointless. so in 0xFF we have 'any #....', was to say ('that fits in the 510 bytes of irc command') but didn't feel like calculating hard max, so gave 128.

13:30

Logged on 2021-09-07 04:32:37 cgra: channel name is specified somewhat incompatible to the irc spec, where three character codes are verboten. (on a side note, i didn't expect irc spec to be that liberal -- newlines or, say, vertical tabs in a channel name?) is this as you intended?

13:31

*

asciilifeform NOT eager to incorporate 'all of irc' idjit postelism into this item -- presently it is SIMPLER than irc in fact, considerably, and asciilifeform likes it that way

13:32

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056640 << in the current draft, the ~original~ received ~black~ packet is echoed. (less cpu load). recall that ~direct~ messages do not get rebroadcast, but still gotta be ACK'd.

13:32

Logged on 2021-09-07 08:05:15 PeterL: asciilifeform: in the pest spec, section 4.1.1.9, "identical packet echoed back" refers to an identical "red packet", not an identical "black packet", yes? And would the "bounce" field be incremented in that case?

13:33

if anyone wants to propose a better ACK mechanism -- i'm all ears.

13:33

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056641 << it oughta be excluded; i simply neglected to specify this. (also, realized yest., neglected to specify breakup of long messages into chains, an essential functionality given that only 320byte of text payload is avail.)

13:33

Logged on 2021-09-07 08:06:18 PeterL: regarding rebroadcasting, the originator of a message is not escluded from being sent the rebroadcast, correct?

13:34

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056643 << indeed. tho you will notice that this coad disappears later, when segregated flags.

13:34

Logged on 2021-09-07 09:09:38 jonsykkel: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051#selection-3775.24-3787.1 << under/overflow here are bool outputs, shouldnt they sinply be putted directly in flag

13:34

*

asciilifeform must bbl

13:34

jonsykkel

cool

~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~

14:45

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056653 << question is what do we gain from this ACK

14:45

Logged on 2021-09-07 09:33:06 asciilifeform: if anyone wants to propose a better ACK mechanism -- i'm all ears.

14:46

punkman: if i send (esp. a ~direct~) message, would like to know whether received before sending another to same dest.

14:47

is an inexpensive (imho) pill against reordering.

14:47

how do we handle lost ACKs

14:47

punkman: same way you handle asteroids.

14:48

so we wait X seconds then send next msg anyway?

14:48

punkman: packet loss in the sense given in schoolbook ~doesn't exist.

14:48

punkman: per spect, if no ack arrives within 1s, console prints 'message to HANDLE not acked!'

14:48

so you know that it wasn't acked.

14:49

*spec

14:49

(so you send anuther, and if ~that~ also not acked, can make reasonable supposition that the box on other end is powered down or moved ip etc)

14:50

^ this only in ~direct message~ algo

14:50

in ~broadcast~, you don't give a fuck at any point.

14:50

(whether all peers received)

~ 20 minutes ~

15:10

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056639 << lulzy. d00d turned into a parody of himself years ago, i've occasionally read him for laffs

15:10

Logged on 2021-09-07 06:55:00 punkman: curtis trying this internet dating thing https://graymirror.substack.com/p/uncle-yarv-0-dating-call

15:11

*

asciilifeform still curious re details of yarvin's surrender of 'urbit'

~ 26 minutes ~

15:38

$ticker btc usd

15:38

busybot

Current BTC price in USD: $46820.78

15:38

lol at dump on the day el salvador enacts 'legal tender' law

15:39

billymg: whoknows, maybe someone bought gigatonne of bananas..

15:39

( after all, finally can!111 )

15:39

Logged on 2021-06-28 17:14:09 asciilifeform: but i do wonder, what's the practical effect: so, maybe asciilifeform can go to el s., and buy all the bananas he wants w/ btc. fat lotta good..

15:40

asciilifeform: can also buy mcfood apparently

15:43

asciilifeform: i'm not quite as cynical as you on this, eventually there will be (if there isn't already) one of those amazon mail forwarding importers, and they'll be taking btc too

~ 22 minutes ~

16:05

billymg: for all i know, there already is

16:06

( prolly still pay orc tax tho )

16:06

Logged on 2021-08-30 19:15:25 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054765 << aint so 'plenty' if also want e.g. 'ryzen' at sticker price and not at 200+% import duty.

16:18

asciilifeform: right but lets you choose where the tax goes. not for billymg of course, for me i would just have to pay double tax (capital gains to us and import tax to orc gov). but i imagine there are some braver than i am who can be more flexible

~ 51 minutes ~

17:09

billymg: asciilifeform is prolly in the minority on this one, but aint excited about 'nao you can buy coffee! and hard drives! with btc!' etc. not looking to part w/ btc for baubles.

17:11

in a hypothetical '1e7$ btc' that somehow could be converted to electric usd tax-free (how?) -- would sell one or two and quit slaving. but imho astronomically unlikely scenario.

17:11

Logged on 2021-08-30 15:55:49 billymg: and if yes, then is problem solved by 1e6 btc exchange rate (where sandwich stays the same price ofcourse)

17:18

asciilifeform: but why sell for e-usd when you could spend directly for literally everything you would otherwise buy with the e-usd? which seems to be the case now in el salvador, i'm assuming since it's legal tender you can pay your rent in it too

17:19

billymg: if in fact worx as described -- you could! the down side is that you're then in bananistan.

17:19

( and when you want product of white man's civilization -- you pay that 200% a la piz )

17:20

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056648 << does it matter that the pest spec now allows spaces and commas in the channel name? not that i really think the operators weren't soon to find out their irc clients won't cooperate in such cases...

17:20

Logged on 2021-09-07 09:30:53 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056636 << in orig. draft 0xFF was to simply require '#pest' but imho this is pointless. so in 0xFF we have 'any #....', was to say ('that fits in the 510 bytes of irc command') but didn't feel like calculating hard max, so gave 128.

17:20

cgra: spaces?!

17:20

fuck no

17:20

command args are space-delimited (really oughta have this in the spec btw)

17:21

will propose a-zA-Z0-9_- for all handles (incl. the pseudochannel placeholder).

17:22

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056701 << this would be clear as crystal

17:22

Logged on 2021-09-07 13:21:39 asciilifeform: will propose a-zA-Z0-9_- for all handles (incl. the pseudochannel placeholder).

17:23

*

asciilifeform has nuffin against utf8 in text payload, in fact often inserts orc glyphs himself, but usernames oughta be latin, fuck erryone

17:23

asciilifeform: unrelated, i spent several hours fighting with my build of "modern" gentoo trying to get python2 to be the default. i went through the change logs for app-eselect/eselect-python and

17:23

dev-lang/python-exec, downloaded and built from ebuilds prior to obvious python2 sabotage, and still no luck

17:24

at least for so long as the asinine 'latin a prints same as cyrillic a' etc thing is a thing

17:24

billymg: i've not yet found how to fix, so far having to invoke pythons manually

17:25

asciilifeform: yeah, i was hoping i could make some progress there, but still stuck

17:25

billymg: i haven't touched it recently, but will come back to it

17:28

asciilifeform: i've given up at the moment. the effort was mostly so i could emerge pip-20.2.3, the last python2 compat build in portage

17:29

asciilifeform: interesting note there, even with that pip ebuild in hand, and PYTHON_TARGETS and PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET set to python2_7, emerge wouldn't include the flag

17:29

billymg: tried PYTHON_COMPAT_OVERRIDE="python2_7" USE="python_targets_python2_7" emerge ... ?

17:29

aah

17:29

odd

17:29

asciilifeform: despite the ebuild file clearly listing 2_7 as a compatible version

17:30

and... if i added -python3_9 to USE emerge would throw an error saying python3_9 is requred

17:30

*

asciilifeform recalls having to in fact 'strace' over 1 of these to see where the fuck it was getting flag

17:30

required*

17:30

so i'm thinking python-exec and eselect-python might have been a red herring and actual breakage is in portage

17:31

likely

17:32

so now i'm just going to build pip 20 from source rather than trying to go through portage

17:32

billymg: from asciilifeform's pov, depythonization is a 'when' not 'if'

17:32

( but, as per st. augustine's salvation, 'please not today!111' lol )

17:32

asciilifeform: what do you mean by depythonization?

17:33

well i have a buncha proggies (e.g. v.py, bot.py, reader.py ...)

17:33

( see also )

17:33

Logged on 2020-07-18 20:01:25 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd dearly like to throw out the pythons, perls, sh atrocities, etc. in favour of sumthing that makes some semblance of sense (incl. when its binary thrown into objdump -D ... )

17:34

ah, as in, these must be ported to ada or something?

17:34

rather than try and keep a working python2 alive

17:34

billymg: mno

17:34

Logged on 2020-07-18 19:55:54 asciilifeform: trinque: since you mentioned script langs: considering, after ffa, to attempt a 'dethompsonizing' simple gc-less scheme in asm, in style of 'M' as a scripting lang. can't speak for erryone, but i've wanted a <32kB scripting lang that 'compiles with bare hands' for many yrs.

17:35

ada is an ill fit for most of these jobs.

17:36

currently there is not a civilized scripting lang imho, sadly.

17:36

Logged on 2020-07-18 19:59:23 asciilifeform: trinque: for me, the big wake-up re 'there is NO reasonably clean script lang atm' was when wrote 'litmus' in what ( asciilifeform naively thought was ) pure 'sh'

17:37

( baking one was on asciilifeform's list of to-do, when the fall of mp empire was near... )

17:38

asciilifeform: what's the downside of keeping fossilzed python2 around? like gnat 4.9.4 for example?

17:38

billymg: well you're in the process of finding out some of these downsides

17:38

heh

17:39

the libraries for instance all externally hosted, and afaik there is no single complete collection of'em (and if there was one, certainly rotten by nao and replaced with py3..)

17:39

^ if asciilifeform is wrong about 'no single...' would like to know

17:42

*

asciilifeform recalls the wankage from '20 w/ mp et al, 'bastard planted us on python! let's rewrite vtron, logger, ..., in sh...'

17:42

wonder how that went.

17:42

Logged on 2020-07-18 19:59:41 asciilifeform: ( turned out in only worx in bash , and possibly not even all vers of bash )

17:43

asciilifeform's adventure w/ .sh ftr.

17:50

if it ain't obvious, asciilifeform despises python, in that way that one can only despise a prison

17:55

relatedly, imho a sane scripting lang oughta be able to 'include' coad vtronically.

17:55

( i.e. ~from inside~ program )

17:56

( see also )

17:56

Logged on 2021-08-29 21:07:32 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: see linked thrd for basic outline of algo. idea is, if you have a www ('vvv' ??) of signed material, will then have as many mirrors as you have readers. and they'll all have up-to-date, authentic content of yours, trivially verifiably. nomoar ddos, expensive hostings, warez takedowns, etc

17:57

e.g. (vrequire '627bce32c3582291563b79b5bf9cbaa7c5d8b1e3cbe38c578418ba41e3b4bbeb9fa6f4a6b3fdf10c4f4933e8dbeca21fdfa1810e03bbc7b2dee7e2ae31c5fdc8) or whatever.

17:57

bang, nomoar dep breakage.

17:58

spittoon -- in one strand!!

18:06

punkman: thinking about ACKs -- possibly simply oughta permit 'getdata' by hash as a message type.

18:06

Logged on 2021-09-07 10:47:16 punkman: how do we handle lost ACKs

18:06

that way can ask peer to fill in the missing msg.

18:06

so then can dispense w/ ACKs entirely, in theory.

18:07

( recall that messages are hash-chained )

18:10

thimbronion, signpost , et al ^

18:14

while we're on pest_FE : there's another msg type asciilifeform did not include, but would like to discuss : rekeys.

18:14

proposed mechanism : 2 msg types for this, 'rekey-a' (payload 512bit of trng) and 'rekey-b' (ditto)

18:15

suppose node X wants to (ideally, probabilistically) initiate a rekey. generates 512b of FG bits, sends as rekey-a to peer Y.

18:16

peer Y receives. generates similarly 512b of FG output, sends to X as 'rekey-b', and immediately adds (512b from rekey-a) xor (512b or rekey-b) as a new key for peer X.

18:17

if X received the rekey-b, does likewise. when peer X validates a packet with new key, it zaps the old; and Y - likewise.

18:19

*(512b from rekey-b)

18:19

*does likewise for Y

18:23

*

asciilifeform considered also to make each peer 1st send a hash of his random 512b -- to prevent a sabotaged client of peer Y from forcing the resulting xor to a zero. but not sure whether worth it.

18:24

( if not obvious -- since Y knows X's string before being asked to produce his own, he can send back ~(X's string) and new key will end up 0)

18:25

granted it'll only compromise X<->Y traffic and no other.

18:25

simply aesthetically Wrong, imho, if even ~theoretically~ possible for an initially a++ handmade key to be swapped with a 0 silently in the future.

18:28

so one possible solution is , 4 types of rekey msg, a', b', a, b. a' carries hash of a's 512b. b' -- hash of b's. from that point, carried on as in earlier example, with proviso that h(a) must == a', and h(b) == b', or peer refuses rekey.

18:28

if to any reader of pest_FE the above does not make sense -- plox to write in!!

18:32

\quit

18:32

oops

18:33

lol

18:33

this pip thing is harder than i thought it would be too

18:34

if there's a way to manually build from source i haven't found it yet, closest thing i found was build python from source with '-ensurepip' flag

18:34

so handshake goes : 1) X->Y : a' 2) Y->X: b' 3) X->Y: a 4) if a' != H(a), Y->X: fuckyou ; else Y->X: b 5) if b' != H(b), X->Y: fuckyou; else X->Y: hello with new key a^b 6) Y->X: hello to you too with new key a^b .

18:35

ftr. nitpicks welcome.

18:35

billymg: have you tried 'easy_install' , the 'alt' pip ?

18:35

asciilifeform: not yet

18:36

what i tried was changing this line in my 2.7 ebuild to be with instead of without

18:36

and it worked in that it installed a pip, but it installed a python3 pip

18:37

despite it being an ebuild for python2.7

18:37

billymg: the sad thing is that the new portage (req'd to eat the new ports tree...) is a py3ism

18:37

( or yours aint?? )

18:38

no, it is

18:38

i.e. py3ism thoroughly infected various mechanisms

18:38

but i assumed it could still be used to install python2 packages, for legacy support and whatnot

18:38

aa nope

18:38

not afaik

18:38

they broke errything they could in py2land

18:42

when war crime tribunals

18:43

when we fight our way outta paper bag!!1!lol

18:51

asciilifeform: I don't get how the a'/b' hash helps anything

18:52

punkman: a and b commit to their xor halves before rekey(a^b) takes effect.

18:52

err, X and Y commit...

18:53

so new key is properly entropic for so long as 1 side has a working rng.

18:53

punkman: or are you asking wtf is the point of autorekeys?

18:54

for anyone curious, running `python2 get-pip.py "pip < 21.0"` with this get-pip.py worked. now to see if it'll install the py2 packages i'm looking for...

18:54

no, never mind, I got it now

18:54

punkman: a ok

18:54

billymg: neato, post recipe if whole thing worx

18:54

might as well check that a xor b is not equal to 0 though?

18:55

punkman: mno. 1 side should not be able to force key to a given value.

18:55

0 aint magic somehow, simply symbolic of this problem

18:56

the objective is this.

18:56

Logged on 2021-09-07 14:53:04 asciilifeform: so new key is properly entropic for so long as 1 side has a working rng.

18:56

asciilifeform: i plan to write up a complete guide for this build, including the source files and tarballs where not the default, once this is all done (so far have working mp-wp, just need the crawler and logotron now)

18:56

this is simply ye olde 'shamir's coin flip'.

18:57

billymg: a++, will read

18:59

punkman: i.e. neither side must be able to force the new key to a constant value. or, if you like, to reduce its entropy below that of the better of the two xor halves.

19:00

it's the kind of bullshit that happens by 'accident' in virtually erry heathen crypto protocol.

19:00

i'd like to kill it even as possibility.

19:02

for noobs, btw, will note that rekeys are necessary, all symm ciphers slowly leak key into ciphertext.

~ 15 minutes ~

19:17

unrelatedly to above, but pertinently to pest_FD draft : prolly oughta specify that operator can define [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-06#1056625][irc 'guests' who can talk but not issue control cmds (and perhaps forcibly prefixed e.g. 'guest_' to their nick, or the like)

19:17

Logged on 2021-09-06 23:51:10 asciilifeform: thimbronion: it is certainly possible to operate bots or guests through a station.

19:17

grr

19:17

unrelatedly to above, but pertinently to pest_FD draft : prolly oughta specify that operator can define irc 'guests' who can talk but not issue control cmds (and perhaps forcibly prefixed e.g. 'guest_' to their nick, or the like)

19:18

Logged on 2021-09-06 23:51:10 asciilifeform: thimbronion: it is certainly possible to operate bots or guests through a station.

19:21

tho ftr it aint clear to asciilifeform that this feature belongs in the core proggy rather than as external util.

19:22

wb bingoboingo

19:22

!q seen bingoboingo

19:22

bingoboingo last seen here on 2021-09-01 16:52:01: signpost: Ease of changing disguise too

19:22

bingoboingo: wat's new in bingoboingostan?

19:24

asciilifeform: uni girl came back around. Trying to script some material to markov chain into video for heathen platforms, still wtf'ing over the ritalin revelation

19:25

bingoboingo: who was wtfing?

19:33

asciilifeform I am.

19:33

bingoboingo: oh hm. why?

19:33

e.g. mp openly admitted to e.g. cocainism, and no one laffed.

19:34

asciilifeform That of all this things I fucked with in my 20's, I never tried this direction

19:34

bingoboingo: pharmaskepticism when living in usa is prolly adaptive.

19:35

likely

19:35

( picture if weren't 'allergic' -- could've been fed 'enuff to kill horse' )

19:35

just US doctors solved everything with sedatives of different species (benzos, D2 blockers), yet... stimulant is the drug delivering actual calm when taken consistently

19:36

*

asciilifeform has met folx taking half dozen ??? -- and largely 'oh, x? that's agains side effects of y'

19:38

soo bingoboingo , now that you have this, got theorems (in broadest sense of the word..) yet ?

19:38

(trilema) 2017-11-29 asciilifeform: patron saint of intellectual dopers, paul erdos , took such small doses that a typical american would not even feel

19:39

There were times in University I was pushed into that

19:39

bingoboingo: ( perhaps can persuade you to read my backbreaker ..? )

19:39

asciilifeform: Big theorem to test is whether or not the platforms can be milked for something now that internet is dead.

19:39

bingoboingo: i.e. for coin?

19:40

asciilifeform: Coin, accelerate the girl funnel livestreaming turned into, whatever, just being open

19:40

iirc shinohai was doing sumthing similar

19:41

The consumers are out there, I'm just come to the point where "Why can't I milk the consumers too"

19:41

*

asciilifeform not master of performing arts, sadly cannot comment pithily

19:44

bingoboingo: btw plz don't hesitate to link your films here

19:44

*

asciilifeform not sure if seen most recent

~ 23 minutes ~

20:07

asciilifeform: I'll probably collate some in blog post with after the fact notes

20:16

Most recent is just popping bubble wrap. Apparently sounds from normal everyday objects is a thing.

20:16

It's 2021, everyone is a weird now. The hunt is for what kinds of weirdos plural I can hammer into an audience.

20:18

bingoboingo: does jingling keys in front of the camera like parents do for babies also work? if no one's tried it yet you could start the trend

20:18

billymg I may have to give that one a try

20:20

The evironmental pressure working against me is that the pnoHe phenomenon has reached the point where most bipeds now have more than capable cameras/etc in their pockets. Sometimes they figure this out and add to crowed field.

~ 21 minutes ~

20:41

lol! what pill do i need to take for popping of bubble wrap to be a++ material to watch ??

20:50

asciilifeform: No idea. Not yet that deep into understanding what drives the consumer

20:52

verisimilitude: answered comment, ty.

21:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056852 << you should look at those chicks doing "egg surprise" unboxing videos, some of them are making serious money

21:06

Logged on 2021-09-07 16:18:19 billymg: bingoboingo: does jingling keys in front of the camera like parents do for babies also work? if no one's tried it yet you could start the trend

21:06

punkman: well chix dun need, theoretically, any theatrical props to 'money from vid' neh

21:07

asciilifeform: porn pays poorly for most of them

21:07

Suggested such to girl if the canadians paying for feet pics dry up

21:08