Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-08-29 | 2021-08-31 →
00:05 billymg alright, can report that i now have a working xorg with dwm while respecting asciilifeform's ban list
~ 36 minutes ~
00:41 signpost congrats
00:46 thimbronion http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-19#1009075 << what does auto-mirrorable mean?
00:46 dulapbot Logged on 2020-03-19 12:32:20 asciilifeform: why the hell is a typical public www bound to 1 box? specifically, why could not exist as an auto-mirrorable directory of signed material ?
00:48 jonsykkel isnt that the idea behind named data networking?
00:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054431 << ftr the linked claim turned out to be disinfo -- asciilifeform has nonroot xorg without any kinda logind at all
00:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 18:25:58 billymg: also, i'm now trying to get startx actually working, and looking at the gentoo guide for non-root-x it seems like i need to have at least elogind (which i think i removed because the xorg-server ebuild on his github wanted to pull in dbus if either systemd or elogind were present)
00:55 asciilifeform ( how? -- with recent kernels, the modeswitch dun require root priv, apparently )
00:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054432 << is your locale set to utf8 ?
00:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 18:31:39 billymg: ahh, it's some | like character being displayed as a 'aOA' (but with ^ accents over each letter), among other strangeness
00:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054433 << aa nm then
00:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 19:19:32 billymg: ok, fixed that by rebuilding his openrc but with unicode support
00:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054437 << neato! i rec to post recipe, for other folx
00:56 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 20:00:39 billymg: alright, can report that i now have a working xorg with dwm while respecting asciilifeform's ban list
00:57 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054441 << lol, can just as readily say that 'it's the idea behind' smoke signalling and messages in bottles
00:57 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 20:44:15 jonsykkel: isnt that the idea behind named data networking?
00:57 asciilifeform ( all arguably 'the same' from this pov.. )
00:57 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, that guide on gentoo's official docs mentions 'suid' but does so in a "don't use this, it's legacy" warning box
00:58 billymg which prompted me to search for startx suid and then i found the news item about how in june 2020 they disabled it by default
00:59 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054439 << it'd mean that you have a wot and when member of said wot uploads a signed material on his station, your station snarfs a copy of the material/signature and in fact erryone who has said pubkey in their personal l1 ends up with identical 'press' of the vtree consisting of what that key had signed, vpatch by vpatch
00:59 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 20:41:45 thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-03-19#1009075 << what does auto-mirrorable mean?
01:00 asciilifeform billymg: 'Official' gentoo has been run by saboteurs for at least decade
01:00 asciilifeform at one point they became aware that most of the people still using some form of gentooism ~don't want~ systemdism under any sauce. but 'gotta' stuff it !! such were orders. so various subterfuges.
01:01 asciilifeform mostly consisting of 'well you still gotta have dbus and gtk3!!! or you don't get to www/emacs/xorg/udev/etc/etc/etc!!' and 'ok have this thing that in fact contains 95% of systemd src but ~we'll call it something else~'
01:03 asciilifeform (see also typical spew of one of these when cornered.)
01:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-05 15:46:03 asciilifeform: 'Since there are holdouts not wanting a systemd only distro, he's decided to slowly destroy it by making it look like the warmed over coprophilic pile called systemd.'
01:03 asciilifeform will paste for permalog:
01:03 asciilifeform '...Regardless of whether systemd's design was a good one, the reality is that notable programs have adopted its tmpfiles design and now depend on certain directories being available without being created by the application. Those directories are required to exist for proper functionality. To ensure their existence, your choices are:...'
01:04 asciilifeform ( and oblig pre-alzheimer mp re this style of 'argument' )
01:04 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-08-18 asciilifeform: 'The situation is somewhat akin to a retarded girlfriend trying to flood your apartment, that not only opens all the faucets and stops all the drains, but also takes the "extremely clever" measure of puncturing the water pipes, so she can then preciously inform you that "turning off the faucets won't help" and you must work with her to somehow create a raft out of your widescreen TV so as to navigate the marshy ter
01:06 asciilifeform ( ... )
01:06 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-08-18 asciilifeform: e your living room. The correct solution in the case of the retarded girlfriend obviously is turning off the main and beating her black and blue, rather than entertaining her idiocy. Similarly in the case of the retarded Internet, the correct solution is turning off the main and beating these idiots black and blue, rather than entertaining their idiocy.'
01:07 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054451 << yeah i just read the quote without the context first
01:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 20:52:38 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054441 << lol, can just as readily say that 'it's the idea behind' smoke signalling and messages in bottles
01:09 asciilifeform jonsykkel: iirc you lurked for long enuff to know about 'v'
01:10 jonsykkel indeed, unacceptabl. should have assumed vtronularity was in play
01:10 billymg asciilifeform: it's certainly maddening. this whole exercise has given me newfound hatred for these people
01:11 billymg asciilifeform: which browser do you recommend i try in this environment?
01:12 asciilifeform jonsykkel: see linked thrd for basic outline of algo. idea is, if you have a www ('vvv' ??) of signed material, will then have as many mirrors as you have readers. and they'll all have up-to-date, authentic content of yours, trivially verifiably. nomoar ddos, expensive hostings, warez takedowns, etc
01:12 dulapbot Logged on 2020-03-19 12:33:43 asciilifeform: config a set of pubkeys and a set of peers. when any of the latter have new material, $node loads, verifies, and interns it.
01:12 asciilifeform billymg: there are no hygienic browsers. if you browse on a box, it thereby is a toilet, pick any, even closed sores atrocities ('chrome', etc)
01:14 billymg asciilifeform: less about hygiene and more about which one is most likely to not require pulling in these systemdisms i've been spending time to avoid
01:14 billymg if there are none, then oh well, i don't mind having done this for my own knownledge
01:14 asciilifeform billymg: bad old 'chrome' worx w/out any deps other than xorg iirc
01:14 asciilifeform 'chromium' iirc ditto
01:14 jonsykkel i see, does sound interesting
01:15 asciilifeform on this particular box both
01:20 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-29#1054473 << their attack has largely worked -- push, push, push the tendrils in , until 'no one knows how' to build even basic box w/out one or more tendrils, and 'the reality is that notable programs have adopted its .... design and now depend on certain ...'
01:20 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 21:06:08 billymg: asciilifeform: it's certainly maddening. this whole exercise has given me newfound hatred for these people
01:20 asciilifeform and 'you need', supposedly, elogind, dbus, etc.
01:21 asciilifeform the funny bit is that there's this intermediate state where they ~say~ 'you need...' but in point of fact the item which supposedly 'needs' $poetteringware will run a++ without it and not notice the 'vital' missing liquishit at all
01:22 asciilifeform this stage is necessary because like certain species of vampire bat, must lull the victim with flapping of wings, anaesthesize prior to bite -- if e.g. 'chromium' ~actually refused to start~ w/out e.g. dbus, someone might conceivably fix.
01:23 asciilifeform but once bogus dependency (e.g. via USE flag) is 'accepted', then and only then they proceed to cement in a hard dependency.
01:23 asciilifeform it's a peculiar pattern, but so far seems to have held.
01:24 asciilifeform 'udev' was picked for poetteringization, but, to the great frustration of the perps, people noticed in time to create a functioning poettering-free fork, 'eudev'
01:25 asciilifeform other items -- not so lucky. asciilifeform for instance is not aware of a poettering-free 'cups' (printer driver system) of any recent vintage
01:26 asciilifeform earlier this yr asciilifeform purchased a serious postscript printer, and found that he has to power up a mswin box to print on it!! just like he had to in e.g. 2004 !
01:26 asciilifeform cuz nomoar cups.
01:26 signpost cups is the original poetteringware imho, fucking hate that thing.
01:27 signpost not actually made by him, but same spirit.
01:27 asciilifeform signpost: it was, wasn't it.
01:27 signpost fucking thing even tries to write to /etc
01:27 asciilifeform and succeeded in displacing all the old, 100% working, clean solutions.
01:27 * signpost ran lots of printers in another life
01:27 asciilifeform arguably set the stage for what followed.
01:28 asciilifeform this printer is a veritable lulzgenerator in own right. pay 4fig for postscript printer (gold standard since '80s... right?) and get, i shit thee not, div-by-0 eggogs mid-way-through printing 100pg doc
01:29 * signpost had to have watchdog check printer state and reboot the entire embedded thing to keep good uptime.
01:29 asciilifeform lol!
01:29 * asciilifeform believes
01:29 signpost yup, or "hm, why does every 10000th-ish print have no fonts"
01:29 signpost all kinds of wonders.
01:30 asciilifeform signpost: i still recall when postscriptism meant that you could simply ftp a e.g. pdf turd to the thing and fughet about 'drivers'
01:30 asciilifeform (spoiler: nomoar)
01:32 signpost far too sensible, that.
01:33 signpost can't get someone to install Hewlett Packard Print Wizard Elite Driver Pack (TM)
01:33 signpost at least the world I was in had pretty standard (rip off star micronics or epson) standards
01:34 * signpost tired, lol, clearly
01:35 * asciilifeform dumpster-dug and repaired, as teenager, early '90s laser printer, and used it until the teeth came off the gears. errything after that has been an adventure in 'wtf, srsly'
01:35 asciilifeform irrespective, interestingly, of price category.
01:36 signpost those star micronics guys are tanks. they have to survive filthy restaurant kitchens.
01:36 asciilifeform oh hm loox like a thermal tape printer ?
01:36 signpost yeah, receipts
01:37 * asciilifeform has a number of these. was speaking of the 'ordinary' office kind tho.
01:37 asciilifeform thermal printers -- nearly indestructible. and almost always speak standard rs-232.
01:37 asciilifeform oblig. piece on subj.
01:38 signpost yeah, I needed to be able to fart images to mine though, so used CUPS.
01:38 * asciilifeform still would like an a4 thermal printer
01:38 asciilifeform would be nifty to find tape for'em that dun fade in ~6months, too
~ 7 hours 47 minutes ~
09:26 punkman "$4.5 million stolen from their xSNX contract. Three months ago this team lost $24 million - in the same token, to the same attack technique. At the time, we wrote;“XToken is a quality protocol”. Now we’re not so sure."
~ 5 hours 9 minutes ~
14:35 asciilifeform punkman: see also
14:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-10 11:00:15 asciilifeform: i.e. the creator of whatever supposed-bug enables the 'ohnoez $xxx mil is gone' (and notice how always reported as an imaginary usd loss, RIAA-style!)
~ 2 hours 26 minutes ~
17:02 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
17:02 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $48172.8
17:02 asciilifeform !w poll
17:02 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
17:02 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
17:02 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
17:02 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
17:02 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.116s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.171s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.093s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698291 (Operator: whaack)
17:02 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.242s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.296s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.331s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.369s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291 (Operator: asciilifeform)
17:02 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.370s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.662s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291
17:02 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.817s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698291 (Operator: asciilifeform)
17:02 billymg asciilifeform: so i found this overlay which has an ebuild for chromium that makes dbus optional, but this depends on the atk use flag, and if disabled, no dbus, but then wants to use gtk3
17:03 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! (Operator: jurov)
17:03 asciilifeform billymg: didja try w/ --nodeps ?
17:03 billymg not yet
17:03 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
17:03 asciilifeform ( simply ignores USE flags )
17:04 asciilifeform or, rather, ignores the deps hardcoded into the port
17:04 asciilifeform if a given item actually linked against, naturally compile will barf
17:06 billymg trying now
17:06 billymg first with upstream latest
17:06 billymg then i'll try his custom ebuild
17:06 billymg i keep forgetting about the --nodeps strategy
17:07 asciilifeform billymg: it's arduous, but apparently (likely for this reason) worx
17:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 21:18:06 asciilifeform: this stage is necessary because like certain species of vampire bat, must lull the victim with flapping of wings, anaesthesize prior to bite -- if e.g. 'chromium' ~actually refused to start~ w/out e.g. dbus, someone might conceivably fix.
17:19 billymg asciilifeform: a warning came up in the build about kernel config USER_NS, which i do not have set. should i enable that?
17:20 asciilifeform $ zcat /proc/config.gz | grep USER_NS
17:20 asciilifeform # CONFIG_USER_NS is not set
17:20 asciilifeform ^ on the box asciilifeform is posting from
17:20 billymg asciilifeform: thanks
17:20 asciilifeform np
17:20 * asciilifeform has nfi what that knob does
17:21 billymg asciilifeform: btw i first tried looking at my rockchip's kernel config but couldn't find it anywhere
17:21 billymg not at /proc/config.gz, not in /boot
17:21 billymg couldn't run sudo modprobe configs
17:22 billymg the warning, if curious, was "USER_NS is required for sandbox to work"
~ 2 hours 9 minutes ~
19:32 billymg asciilifeform: been --nodeps'ing and manually installing missing deps but finally may have hit a wall with 'atk-bridge-2.0' which is part of app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk
19:34 asciilifeform billymg: what proggy this one is for ?
19:34 billymg chromium
19:34 asciilifeform what happens when put in mask list ?
19:34 billymg which?
19:34 asciilifeform app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk
19:35 billymg app-accessibility/at-spi2-atk already masked in your crapolade file
19:35 asciilifeform so where's the wall ? chromium stops at ./configure ? ( post eggog ? )
19:36 asciilifeform btw apparently https://github.com/sabotage-linux/atk-bridge-fake exists.
19:36 * asciilifeform not tried, claims : 'NOP implementation of atk-bridge, so gtk+3 can be used without dbus dependencies'
19:37 billymg asciilifeform: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=InD2
19:37 billymg asciilifeform: interesting, so reason gtk+3 is banned is because it brings in dbus?
19:37 asciilifeform correct
19:37 billymg ok, i might try that NOP solution then
19:38 asciilifeform may be worth to test the above item, aha
19:38 asciilifeform there's several proggies which cannot be installed on asciilifeform-flavoured gentoo on acct of gtk3 ban
19:38 billymg asciilifeform: it seems like there are enough people out there not wanting dbus/systemd
19:39 asciilifeform enuff to find occasional patch. not enuff to maintain a clean gentoo unfortunately.
19:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 14:53:47 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's verdict from his recent experiments is that yes -- it ~is~ possible to bake a 'gentoo as it was in 2007' 100% working item, outta the current morass. but not trivially, and to keep it functioning is full-time work for at least 2 people.
19:39 billymg i've seen multiple custom overlays, people filing issues with popular programs requesting builds that don't require dbus, etc.
19:40 asciilifeform aha. most folx stop at 'this one install sorta worked for me' stage tho.
19:40 billymg seems if they knew how to talk to eachother and organize could work on maintaining ONE custom overlay that did what's needed
19:40 asciilifeform well not overlay, but ideally wholesale fork of gentoo. incl. banishment of gcc5+, python3, etc
19:40 billymg asciilifeform: what do you suppose is the reason there isn't a project like this already?
19:41 asciilifeform billymg: see linked thrd. it's fulltime work for 2+ people, these people don't exist.
19:41 asciilifeform occasional 'nights/weekends' as often happens aint enuff.
19:41 billymg but i've seen more than 2 people, perhaps dozen, that want
19:42 asciilifeform this is a recurring pattern in opensores.
19:42 asciilifeform 'wanting' does 0.
19:42 asciilifeform only doing does anything.
19:44 asciilifeform oblig naggum repasta .
19:44 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: 'The whole idea that anything can be so "shared" as to have no value in itself is not a problem if the rest of the world ensures that nobody _is_ starving or needing money. For young people who have parents who pay for them or student grants or loans and basically have yet to figure out that it costs a hell of a lot of money to live in a highly advanced society, this is not such a bad idea. Grow up, graduate,
19:44 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: marry, start a family, buy a house, have an accident, get seriously ill for a while, or a number of other very expensive things people actually do all the time, and the value of your work starts to get very real and concrete to you, at which point giving away things to be "nice" to some "community" which turns out not to be "nice" _enough_ in return that you will actually stay alive, is no longer an option. Al
19:44 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: l of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for granted is hard to
19:44 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-11-15 asciilifeform: impossible.'
19:47 signpost billymg: were ya not even here when I genesis'd an entire self-building ebuild tree?
19:47 signpost precisely zero people cared.
19:48 billymg signpost: i was around for cuntoo, even tried doing something with it, but at that point had too little experience to really know what i was doing
19:48 signpost same occurred when I put together the compiler bootstrap.
19:48 billymg also had ft job at the time
19:48 signpost not bitching about it, just saying that as asciilifeform says, isn't really a hobby
19:50 * signpost doubts the entire "build it and they will come" algo, having seen it fail a shameful number of times, ought've learned by first or second, haha
19:51 asciilifeform compiler/kernel/shell aint nuffin. but also difficult to get past 'but no way in hell will there be www browser' and the fact that holding back the shitflood is fulltime work.
19:51 asciilifeform generations of idjit 'just-wanters' ceded much key territory to the enemy.
19:54 signpost yep. as I see it now, the move is a very small core that can load in whatever userland environment is suitable for one's task.
19:55 signpost be it a shitwad to run chrome, emacs, w/e
19:55 signpost without dockerism
19:55 asciilifeform signpost: thinking of ye olde chroot/bsd-jail ?
19:56 signpost yep, something like that. would be nice to start with a virgin machine and have it turned into scholar or whore without manual cranking
19:56 * asciilifeform does the simplest and most ancient variant of this -- simply a rack fulla physically separate machines
19:56 signpost yup, same.
19:57 asciilifeform the sad part is when you find that you spend 99+% of time in the toilets.
19:57 * asciilifeform brb
19:58 billymg does the problem boil down to money? if thiel wanted to pay 3-4 ft engineers to maintain a sane fork of gentoo, would that work (hypothetically)?
20:00 billymg and if yes, then is problem solved by 1e6 btc exchange rate (where sandwich stays the same price ofcourse)
20:00 signpost yeah, certainly would. question is then how you get your thiel to not introduce thiel-shaped incentives which prevent the sanity.
20:01 signpost to paraphrase the man himself, "why the fuck even do something if it has no chance to monopolize its market"
20:06 billymg signpost: yeah, so maybe not thiel. and to answer my own hypothetical re: mega btc exchg rate, would not help in current order because it's mostly write only
20:06 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-06 21:15:41 asciilifeform: makes for a rather great 'write-only memory' tho!
20:07 billymg so to me it seems the real root of "why no sane gentoo fork" is "btc not spendable"
20:07 signpost I dunno where the 50-100% figure comes from
20:07 signpost long term capital gains is high, but not that high.
20:08 billymg signpost: yeah, i believe around 20% as of today, but i keep hearing it'll be 50% soon (possibly in that 'infrastructure' bill?)
20:08 signpost if that comes I'll just cash out the 30% to buy my freedom
20:08 signpost because tax changes don't usually happen immediately.
20:10 billymg signpost: i think what happens then is the amount you cashed out to be sufficient for freedom inflates away to not enough for freedom in a few years
20:10 signpost anyway, better not to have one's plans rely on a longshot, but I plan on returning to my own projects somewhere in the woods in a year or two.
20:12 signpost dunno how that tracks. you either 1) cash out just what you need, and pay 20-25% on whatever you made between $300 and $300,000 price tag, or 2) you buy a passport from Antigua for $100k and pay 30% of unrealized gains to USA
20:13 signpost *to buy your freedom from the state dept
20:13 billymg signpost: ah, i didn't understand that the '30% for freedom' meant renouncing citizenship
20:13 signpost imho cheap compared to historical indentured servitude
20:17 signpost anyway. the best strategy if billymg wants a gentoo that is by his standard sane is to find what will acquire that time for him, rather than the "stone soup" strat
20:18 billymg signpost: i think would take 10 billymgs unfortunately
20:18 billymg maybe that number goes down over time, but still
20:22 signpost in either case, if you do go down the "vpatch a portage tree" route, might take another look at cuntoo, could save you some work.
20:22 signpost ftr I always fucking hated that name.
20:24 billymg signpost: i'll look again. so yours was for an entire portage tree, not just designed to be an overlay?
20:24 signpost correct. "cuntoo" was its own "repo" in portage terminology
20:25 signpost the reason I took that approach was that one could have both a cuntoo "repo" and a vintage gentoo repo, with cuntoo at higher priority.
20:25 signpost this allowed easy cherrypicking of ebuilds into the cuntoo repo
20:25 signpost (which one would then vpatch atop the genesis, and eventually dispense with the vintage tree)
20:25 signpost thing gives you a vintage musltronic gentoo with lilo as bootloader, no dbus, etc etc
20:26 signpost even farts the thing onto a usb drive for ya
20:26 signpost mp dismissed it when it didn't have a debian-looking installer, I guess.
20:26 * asciilifeform defo planning to dust off this item again and make it go from dulap-gentoo (iirc open problem)
20:27 asciilifeform signpost imho yer approach was the Right Thing
20:27 asciilifeform but long way to go, i suspect, to replace traditional variant
20:27 signpost yep no doubt.
20:27 asciilifeform at the risk of tautology -- it won't get done unless someone does it
20:27 * signpost went to solve the time problem, which is why one doesn't see many works lately.
20:28 billymg signpost: from my limited understanding of working with my own (growing) overlay at /usr/local/portage, having an overlay also allows you to pick versions/ebuilds between the main repo and overlay fairly easily
20:28 asciilifeform signpost: 'time problem' in fact in past yr got ~substantially worse~ for asciilifeform
20:28 billymg signpost: but it sounds like advantage of separate repo is eventually can jettison upstream completely, which means less work?
20:29 signpost billymg: portage has two features, overlay and repo. latter is more general, can haven
20:29 asciilifeform ( new client came , to asciilifeform's shop of horros, and found that could not refuse, on acct of the shakiness of the existing one )
20:29 signpost *have n
20:29 signpost and in the vintage portage, not 2021 portage
20:29 signpost asciilifeform: we're not dead yet.
20:29 asciilifeform indeed
20:30 signpost billymg: I'm happy to support ya with questions answered if you see fit to dust the thing off.
20:30 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054625 << see imho exhaustive likbez re: subj.
20:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 15:54:00 billymg: does the problem boil down to money? if thiel wanted to pay 3-4 ft engineers to maintain a sane fork of gentoo, would that work (hypothetically)?
20:30 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-12 11:36:44 asciilifeform: in 'civilized world', if you have a 'high-risk high-expense long-term' project, there are exactly three ways to fund it. (1) a. carnegie and j. rockefeller think you have pretty face and gives you $B. (2) convince bureaucrats that your tech, if successful, will enable amazing Wunderwaffen with which surely ww3 will be won. (3) convince investors that they will get 300% in coupla yrs.
20:30 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-12 11:37:43 asciilifeform: (1) we will disregard because it was part of largely bygone era. but included for completeness, it was how e.g. tesla was funded (westinghouse.)
20:30 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-12 11:38:18 asciilifeform: (2) and (3) the pertinent items. it was how lmi & smbx were funded. the problem with these is that they are both ~lying contests~.
20:30 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-12 11:39:00 asciilifeform: and if a ~better liar~ comes along, he will win, and you -- lose. the technical merits of the proj being ~irrelevant.
20:31 signpost and would welcome you naming it something less embarassing.
20:31 billymg signpost: yeah, i suppose i should try it again on this box. last time i tried had almost 0 experience with gentoo and on top of that was trying to install it on some exotic new x1 6th gen thinkpad
20:31 asciilifeform ( and elsewhere . asciilifeform beat the subj moar or less, imho, to death )
20:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-06 22:59:05 asciilifeform: the folx w/ 'infinite dough', only interested in ego fellatio & cocaine. the folx who are interested in other things, have ~no dough. and often enuff even no clue, wouldn't know what to do w/ whatever gear even if gave to'em for phree.
20:32 billymg which required quite a bit of fussing even with the upstream gentoo at the time
20:32 signpost the matter of hardware is just a kernel config, which you have to do for any build, cuntoo or not
20:32 signpost and firmware likely
20:32 signpost asciilifeform: indeed, but entirely correctly
20:32 * signpost was thinking of these when paraphrasing thiel
20:32 signpost "why would I even do something if I can't destroy everything in my path while doing so?"
20:33 signpost these are not men that build.
20:33 * signpost bbl
20:34 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054626 << while we're at it, problem equally 'solvable' by martians airdropping platinum bricks into my backyard. equally, imho, likely.
20:34 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 15:55:49 billymg: and if yes, then is problem solved by 1e6 btc exchange rate (where sandwich stays the same price ofcourse)
20:37 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054639 << imho is lulzy that folx (incl. mp) never seem to include the costs of living in jungle shithole in 'cost of freedom'. asciilifeform not been to e.g. cr. but has been to bingoboingostan, and knows that doing what asciilifeform is wont to do in montevideo could easily cost same as what he currently pays in us tax
20:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 16:07:34 signpost: dunno how that tracks. you either 1) cash out just what you need, and pay 20-25% on whatever you made between $300 and $300,000 price tag, or 2) you buy a passport from Antigua for $100k and pay 30% of unrealized gains to USA
20:37 asciilifeform on acct of the extortionate customs duties and shipping costs of errything that dun grow on that continent
20:38 asciilifeform i.e. if yer in bingostan and you want, say, 'opteron' -- now you need to hire someone to smuggle it in. or pay its weight in silver at customs. or i suppose if you own a uboat...
20:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054631 << obv. can't speak for other folx, but asciilifeform dun have enuff to 'be free' even at 2x of current exch rt. and 0tax somehow
20:43 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 16:02:44 billymg: so to me it seems the real root of "why no sane gentoo fork" is "btc not spendable"
20:43 asciilifeform so rather academic subj for asciilifeform .
20:43 asciilifeform folx for whom otoh practical -- already ran their own #s and know.
20:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054637 << 'cashing out' one's entire chest is imho idiotic no matter how or where. inflation will eat yer pile of dough -- it's what inflation is engineered ~for~.
20:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 16:05:36 billymg: signpost: i think what happens then is the amount you cashed out to be sufficient for freedom inflates away to not enough for freedom in a few years
20:46 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was saying. i misunderstood signpost's '30% for freedom' meaning 30% of stack
20:46 billymg to mean*
20:46 billymg and made the same point, anything you "pre-cashout" inflates away
20:47 billymg so must be consistently spendable, so that it can last\
20:47 billymg and by "spendable" i mean without kyc and with only fair tax from honest jurisdiction (which afaik isn't possible / doesn't exist)
20:48 asciilifeform the other pt was that freedom can be said to come in '-' and '+' sign bits. the '-' is what folx normally focus on when fantasizing escape from usg and similar. and in some places relatively easy to come by. but to combine with '+' is much harder proposition. no gigabit fiber in zimbabwe, no one will set yer broken legs in antarctica.
20:49 asciilifeform a man on a raft in open ocean has just about all the '-' freedom anyone could want.
20:51 billymg asciilifeform: it's a shitty state the world is in now, won't disagree there
20:52 asciilifeform none of the above is any kinda news imho
20:54 billymg asciilifeform: i've been thinking of that 'you and the atomic bomb' essay and it's central point. what i was wondering is whether the atomic bomb is really still the dominant weapon today, or if you could say the dominant weapon is now information technology, and what this would mean (i.e. does a sane os on sane silicon give people their 'claws'?)
20:55 asciilifeform billymg: the bomb, jet, etc. were of more importance back when there was actual resistance. today 'bonsai kittens' for the most part.
20:56 asciilifeform even allah-snackbars explode now where their version of arsebook tells'em to, and not e.g. at davos.
20:56 asciilifeform ( and similarly elsewhere )
20:56 dulapbot Logged on 2019-12-02 02:26:44 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: disappointing, but unsurprising. in usa also riots ~always like that -- the designated 'kindling' (i.e. slums) burn, and (almost...) never the skyscrapers.
20:57 billymg asciilifeform: that example seems like the problem is their version of fb (information tech) and not lack of resistance (willing to suicide seems like enough motivation)
20:57 asciilifeform observe that in e.g. usa millions impoverished, evicted, deprived of just about errything incl., arguably, a soul. and no one had to drop hbomb on'em to make this happen.
20:58 asciilifeform billymg: willingness to ~think~ (and ability to do so, and to have ~with what~) is much rarer than readiness for suicide.
20:58 asciilifeform by coupla orders of magnitude.
20:58 billymg asciilifeform: but say their version of fb told them to go to davos
20:59 * asciilifeform can judge only by results
20:59 billymg you don't need a million "thinkers" just one who can send messages to their screens
20:59 asciilifeform davos -- intact.
21:01 billymg point i'm trying to make is if you could MITM their devices you might be able to get something done, even if they can't "think". this afterall is exactly what enemy does
21:02 billymg and if that's true then greatest weapon is the screen, not the bomb
21:03 billymg and yes nothing has happened yet, but the point in orwell's essay is that based on the dominant tech of the time is where society leads, given enough time
21:04 billymg dominant weapon* tech
21:05 asciilifeform billymg: imho 'hijack broadcast once and Get The Truth Out' worx only in movie.
21:05 asciilifeform in real life propaganda takes 'over9000' repetitions.
21:06 asciilifeform on top of this, homo redditicus is an inherently damaged creature, and damaged in a way that can serve only the reich.
21:07 asciilifeform and to try to 'save' them is endless black hole for any kind of effort imho. the most that thinking people oughta try to save is themselves and -- where possible -- each other.
21:07 billymg asciilifeform: doesn't have to be actual plot as described, but there are other ways that computing 'gives claws', e.g. we now have btc, which can be stored in such a way that can never be seized, short of (successful) torture
21:07 asciilifeform billymg: to asciilifeform seems already btc largely neutered. but asciilifeform aint an unbiased judge of this.
21:08 billymg asciilifeform: it does seem like they've done to btc the same as they did to gold via paper markets, but btc has properties that gold doesn't that make this harder to sustain
21:08 asciilifeform at one time asciilifeform thought 'hard to sustain' but aint seeing any signs of failure to sustain atm.
21:09 asciilifeform 'sandwich' exch rate is rising substantially faster than btc's.
21:10 billymg asciilifeform: that's hyperbole, even by your own account btc has done much much better than inflation
21:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-24 00:10:02 asciilifeform: vex: right but you must be putting wet cardboard in yours. over here the cost of e.g. cheese which actually came outta cow at some pt, has ~tripled in last 10y
21:11 billymg last i checked btc more than tripled in last 10y
21:11 billymg heck, in last year
21:11 asciilifeform billymg: followed the 'expected' 'apocalyptic' trajectory for coupla yrs, then reich got the paperization going
21:13 asciilifeform cost of e.g. housing in asciilifeform's locale is following roughly same trajectory as btc.
21:13 asciilifeform i.e. not btc rising, but simply dollar sinking.
21:16 asciilifeform ridiculous fucking plywood boxes advertised for $mil+ now.
21:16 billymg asciilifeform: yes, they've been 'firing on all cyclinders' lately, but i still don't think they can do this forever (like they do with gld)
21:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-19 14:46:56 asciilifeform: trinque: it's interesting to asciilifeform , even as spectator, how all the engines for damping btc-usd running 'redline'
21:16 asciilifeform nuffing's forever.
21:16 asciilifeform q is whether, as in the old saw, 'market can stay irrational longer than you can stay alive'
21:17 billymg asciilifeform: then have children, transfer keys to them
21:17 * asciilifeform not interested
21:17 billymg asciilifeform: or apprentice, doesn't have to be own dna
21:17 asciilifeform roughly same problem in both cases
21:17 asciilifeform the continuity of the generations was broken.
21:18 asciilifeform the structure for it was damaged.
21:18 asciilifeform ( e.g. mp actually documented quite accurately, imho, how. )
21:18 billymg asciilifeform: i think a lot of people realize this, and admitting there's a problem is the first step
21:19 billymg i know, 'bonsai kitten' and all, but many seem to recognize 1) something's fucked up and 2) something must be done
21:19 * asciilifeform does not have enuff narcissism to try to sell purported solutions to 'planetary' problems, when cannot even solve own.
21:20 * asciilifeform speaking of which, must bbl
~ 21 minutes ~
21:42 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054742 << so house doubled/tripled and we call that "same trajectory"?
21:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 17:08:55 asciilifeform: cost of e.g. housing in asciilifeform's locale is following roughly same trajectory as btc.
21:45 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054692 << bullshit, maybe right for particular case of CR, don't know, but bullshit
21:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 16:32:46 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054639 << imho is lulzy that folx (incl. mp) never seem to include the costs of living in jungle shithole in 'cost of freedom'. asciilifeform not been to e.g. cr. but has been to bingoboingostan, and knows that doing what asciilifeform is wont to do in montevideo could easily cost same as what he currently pays in us tax
21:47 mats the exit tax gets even more gnarly if you're worth more than 2mn, you pay unrealised capital gains on everything you got
21:49 punkman if asciilifeform truly dislikes US, plenty of places to choose. if need to meet client, can travel back, who cares, work is remote anyway (I think asciilifeform said so).
21:50 billymg mats: i believe that's what was being discussed re: the '30%'. iirc < 2mn and it's just a ~$2500 filing fee
21:50 billymg but i haven't looked in a while, not sure
21:51 mats aand your name ends up on a public list
21:52 billymg mats: heh, yeah. and there are public examples of people who renounced, then later usg decided "he didn't do it right, plz extradite"
21:52 punkman plenty of people to help with tax problems
21:52 mats e.g. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/07/29/2021-16201/quarterly-publication-of-individuals-who-have-chosen-to-expatriate-as-required-by-section-6039g
21:53 punkman also for customs problems, what no crooked customs guy in Uruguay
21:53 mats alf is a law abidin' citizen
21:53 billymg imo "renounce" is legal pill and therefore only works if rule of law exists
21:54 mats never know who really owns that guy anyway
21:54 punkman they'll never forget you are American anyway
21:54 billymg punkman: exactly
21:55 punkman most countries "renounce" is not even a thing
~ 1 hours 25 minutes ~
23:20 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054765 << aint so 'plenty' if also want e.g. 'ryzen' at sticker price and not at 200+% import duty.
23:20 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 17:44:57 punkman: if asciilifeform truly dislikes US, plenty of places to choose. if need to meet client, can travel back, who cares, work is remote anyway (I think asciilifeform said so).
23:22 punkman why is sticker price important? how many ryzen does asciilifeform buy per year?
23:24 asciilifeform depends on the year. but collectively gear is good % of asciilifeform's expenses.
23:24 asciilifeform ssd dun grow on trees either.
23:27 punkman paying less at customs is no grand conspiracy in most places, it's everyday business. you call import agent, tell him "I need to import a package with XYZ from over there, how much will this cost", he gives you estimate, you negotiate, problem solved
23:27 asciilifeform punkman: you slept through the pizarro debacle, didntcha.
23:27 punkman don't remember any specifics
23:28 asciilifeform the time ben_vulpes was unable to avoid 1 of the suitcases being inspected, and had to pay coupla k$ for 'import agent' to handle it, summing to considerable fraction of the value of the cargo
23:30 asciilifeform or how about the time we experimentally had 'amazon' ship a $25 drive to bingoboingostan. shipping + tax was iirc >150. (and NO there was no possible 'local' substitute, it was THAT drive or fucking go home, exhaustively tested all avail. at the time metal-shelled usb3 sticks for 24/7 operation)
23:31 asciilifeform ooor let's recall what the piz rack cost and how quickly folded from fucking gust of wind
23:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-08 12:09:10 asciilifeform: see the orig books if interested in what this cost -- was astronomical price.
23:32 asciilifeform or the time asciilifeform and bingoboingo walked all over montevideo trying to find a shop that'd sell a rackmount 220v power strip..
23:33 asciilifeform and satan allmighty forbid you need anyffin more exotic.
23:33 punkman yeah if I buy $25 drive from Amazon US, Fedex will call me and say "plz to pay $150"
23:33 asciilifeform punkman: you at least have a germany to drive to
23:33 asciilifeform there aint a germany in south amer
23:34 punkman or I buy $300 item from China, it comes via EMS, they email me and ask for invoice/paypal-screenshot, I send screenshot that says $50, pay $20 bucks
23:34 asciilifeform punkman: how long btw this usually takes in gr ?
23:35 punkman can take months with cheapest shipping options
23:35 asciilifeform ugh
23:35 punkman but EMS is cheap enough
23:35 asciilifeform for comparison, asciilifeform ordered an iron 4d ago from hk and received today. w/out any emails, phone calls, customs duties, at all
23:36 asciilifeform if it turns out to be missing a screw, can get that screw shipped same-day.
23:36 punkman yeah I think "official" limit is around $1000 in US
23:36 asciilifeform never once paid a customs duty in usa.
23:36 punkman we had customs-free at 20eur or less
23:36 asciilifeform not for 1k, not for 5k
23:36 punkman but they even stopped this now
23:36 punkman everyone must fill form and pay
23:37 asciilifeform vendors invariably fill in 'correctly'.
23:37 asciilifeform or at least on my watch none ever failed to.
23:37 punkman mail forwared can repackage item and include any printed documentaton/invoices you like
23:37 punkman *mail forwarder
23:38 asciilifeform how does forwarder help against local extortionate duties ?
23:39 punkman I can buy $1000 item from Amazon US, sent to forwarder, they can remove all packaging, add invoice for "$100 used item", I pay 30% of $100 instead of $1000
23:39 asciilifeform a
23:39 asciilifeform makes sense
23:39 punkman friend can do this also
23:40 mats geez
23:40 asciilifeform not so diff from what we did w/ e.g. the rk's for piz.
23:41 asciilifeform (funnily enuff the 1 item the customs people in uy pawed over and only reluctantly let through -- looked 'too new', 'sellable')
23:41 mats so i gotta go to dive bars and get to know smugglers if i leave the zone
23:41 asciilifeform mats: unless you need nuffin moar hightech than banana -- then yes
23:42 asciilifeform ( alternatively fly the irons in w/ own hands )
23:42 asciilifeform e.g. mp claimed that he made do with such comp irons as were actually sold in shops in orcistans.
23:42 asciilifeform maybe -- was true.
23:42 * asciilifeform skeptical
23:43 asciilifeform his www was (and to this day, last i knew is) hosted in moscow.
23:43 asciilifeform i.e. wasn't making do w/ bananistani bandwidth prices for ~that~
23:43 punkman or for another example: pallet of clothes going to another EU country, about $5k. call import agent, talk about items, tells me I need this and that documentation. gives estimate, I sort of tell him "get fucked, you gotta do better", he does better, fixes doc problems on arrival, pallet on its way
23:44 asciilifeform punkman: lemme guess, also months ?
23:44 punkman couple weeks from Asia
23:44 punkman pallets don't wait for months, take up too much space
23:44 asciilifeform still ugh
23:44 punkman months is for little things from china
23:45 punkman couple weeks total, not stuck at customs
23:45 asciilifeform or let's say you need a circuit board made. simple, 2-layer, for prototype. for coupla hundy here i get 7day turnaround (incl. shipping). how long and how much for this in e.g. gr ?
23:46 punkman could probably get in 10 days from China, also some shops in Bulgaria
23:46 asciilifeform olimex in bulgaria
23:47 asciilifeform in cn 'phoenix' and prolly others, but gotta wonder how long to gr
23:47 asciilifeform if customs in the loop
23:47 asciilifeform little shithole orcistans, as i understand, live and breathe import taxation like reich breathes income taxation
23:48 punkman my point is, customs is banal, solvable problem, almost everywhere.
23:48 asciilifeform the moolah gotta come from ~somewhere~, and officials expect their yachts and rolexes in even smallest shithole kleptocracy
23:48 punkman and yes you have it easy in US
23:48 asciilifeform punkman: is solvable prolly even on mars. q is always 'what cost'.
23:49 punkman now carrying bunch of servers in luggage, certainly puts you in "sucker" category
23:50 asciilifeform punkman: if you don't have with what to pay 200% duty of (sticker price as if they were new!!) servers -- they go in luggage.
23:50 asciilifeform how else do you propose.
23:50 asciilifeform 'oh but what do you need servers for!' 'fuck you with hot poker'
23:51 asciilifeform i'd've put'em in my u-boat, but so happens that i dun have a uboat.
23:52 mats an rc narcosub looks like a fun project
23:52 asciilifeform mats: iirc there already have been found fully robotic examples
23:53 asciilifeform ( not entirely clear to asciilifeform for what these things needed crew to begin with. )
23:54 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-30#1054771 << pretty interesting. moar entries on that list than i'd've expected
23:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 17:48:07 mats: e.g. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/07/29/2021-16201/quarterly-publication-of-individuals-who-have-chosen-to-expatriate-as-required-by-section-6039g
23:55 asciilifeform ( considering the difficulty and expense of formally breaking outta usg serfdom )
23:55 mats piloting? though i guess the sub could intermittently surface a mast with gps rx sensors and such
23:56 asciilifeform mats: they all snorkel anyway, 100% of the way
23:56 asciilifeform no battery will sail you across any ocean
23:56 punkman asciilifeform: what percentage did you end up paying for luggage servers?
23:56 asciilifeform 0
23:56 mats not yet anyway
23:57 asciilifeform mats: not ever (unless you count compact reactors as 'battery')
23:57 punkman don't even need battery to saild across ocean
23:58 asciilifeform punkman: to sail w/out radar profile, generally you need an artificial power source
23:58 asciilifeform ( not to mention that if sailing, well, with sails -- need crew and provisions for same )
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