Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-08-07 | 2021-08-09 → ↓
01:36 punkman mats, what's up
01:37 mats intl news about fires in gr
01:38 mats guess that doesnt affect you
01:39 punkman not a lot of trees around here
01:41 punkman the heatwave was brutal though, finally got some cool air tonight
~ 16 minutes ~
01:58 punkman Imagine being some poor schmuck with a burned down house, chief clown repeating on tv "we are so lucky nobody died, we will rebuild all the houses!". But you remember last year's earthquake and the 200 houses that fell down and they ain't rebuilding those either. "Those were shitty old houses anyway".
02:01 punkman so you know nothing's being rebuilt. "Maybe they'll give us some money". Probably a couple thousand eur. You know all this, and you are not going for walk in the rich suburbs, with a can of gasoline.
02:05 punkman because they managed to grow the vacant firefighter positions to 4000, bullied them to take vaccine. They spent ~20 million, or maybe ~2 million, lots of accusations flying around, on "fire protection/preparation" for whole country. They spent 3-4 times that just on vaccine ads.
02:09 punkman there's a meme growing though, every time someone sees TV crew, they shout "Mitsotakis get fucked"/"Mitsotakis you're a faggot"
02:19 punkman "The Dixie Fire burning in two Northern California counties is now the largest single wildfire in recorded state history, exploding in size overnight as drought-stricken lands continue to fuel the flames."
02:20 punkman I wonder how much Cali spends on firefighting
~ 29 minutes ~
02:49 thimbronion Wish they'd spend more on thinning and controlled burns.
02:56 mats it makes sense to force firefighters to take the vaccine, they are already a massive insurance liability
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02:58 mats tobacco use has long since been banned in many firefighter unions because a small set of idiots drive up the cost of insuring the entire pool
02:58 mats its been a thing for like thirty years in many us municipalities
03:00 mats in my last workplace, one person's husband needing chemotherapy drove up rates for like five hundred people
03:01 mats you may or may not be surprised about how much grumbling i heard about maybe canning this person for unrelated cause, from jr and middle mgmt
03:11 punkman banned tobacco use? because insurance? lol
03:11 punkman when do you start banning fat people?
03:12 mats well, more like they won't employ you if you admit to tobacco use
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03:13 mats and will probably lose coverage if its discovered when you make a related claim
03:14 mats the disgustingly obese should probably also be unhireable for insurance reasons but there's a lot more fatties than smokers these days so that's not super politically tenable
03:14 punkman it makes sense to force firefighters to take the vaccine << certainly not if it means you'll end up with half the firefighters
03:15 mats maybe this just means greece is a failed society and ought to burn anyway
03:15 mats mismanaged its finances into austerity, cries victim, seems there's a pattern here
03:17 punkman Greece is prime EU victim, but yes, must burn
03:17 mats not to be unpleasantly direct, but you know what i mean
03:20 punkman not sure what you mean, but I'm not offended or anything
~ 3 hours 26 minutes ~
06:46 signpost I don't know mats. on the one hand, plebs don't get to decide which plague they're going to take seriously.
06:48 signpost on the other, when you find the bureaucracy that can actually make the decision for them wisely, sign me up to shine their shoes.
06:49 signpost (leaving aside for the moment *which* vaccine might be being distributed in greece, too)
~ 6 hours 42 minutes ~
13:31 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-07#1050597 << if it's politically tenable to force the firefighters to take the vaccine then surely it would also be politically tenable to force the unvaccinated firefighters to sign a form waiving their right to insurance coverage in the case of a covid infection
13:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-07 22:52:21 mats: it makes sense to force firefighters to take the vaccine, they are already a massive insurance liability
~ 2 hours 16 minutes ~
15:48 mats who knows how it works in greece, but in usa all the states recognize at-will employment
15:48 mats being an anti vax dummy isn't a protected class
~ 21 minutes ~
16:09 billymg mats: well yes, and they can fire you for having voted for trump, or for not having posted a black square on your instagram profile in the days following st. floyd's death
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16:09 billymg after all, being a racist is not a protected class
16:12 billymg but i thought you were attempting to make a rational point about how, personal preference aside, one's decision may affect others financially (when they choose to not get vaxxed, catch covid, and cause insurance premiums to go up)
16:12 billymg so i was merely pointing out that if that were truly the concern there would be other ways to eliminate it
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~
17:41 punkman how the firefighting is going, quite the scene here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAQTjIZIak4
17:44 mats waivers tend to be difficult to secure and there's no apparently good reason to make exceptions for antivax dummies who can still expose coworkers to covid
17:46 mats what's more likely is that they'll just lie to secure employment, discovered during treatment for an unrelated issue, get fired, sued by the insurance company, and perhaps prosecuted for fraud
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17:48 mats unless covid is a mass hallucination and being unvaccinated is totally okay, without any kind of externalities whatsoever
17:51 mats getting a waiver to go without insurance coverage entirely makes more sense, except the part where its still a problem, so perhaps they ought to sign up to pay everyone's insurance premiums and claims indefinitely
17:52 punkman in greece: 2020 increase in total deaths: 4.6%, 2017 increase: 4.8%
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17:52 punkman don't remember anyone going crazy in 2017
18:04 signpost mats: I'm vaccinated ftr, but suppose mRNA vaccines prove to be nothing more than a great way to evolve more aggressive and evasive protein spikes?
18:04 punkman US 2019: 2,854,838 2020: 3,358,814, that's 17.8% increase. guess you got it a lot worse over there
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18:05 punkman guess the fatties aren't doing very well
18:05 punkman and you got a younger population
18:05 signpost and suppose actually getting covid produces a more robust immunity
18:05 signpost this I Trust the Science (TM) thing is as much religious bullshit as those that think the vax is mark of the beast.
18:06 * signpost proposes another, quite America-compatible approach. let states decide (including deciding to shut their borders) and see who burns.
18:07 punkman pfizer study with 45k people, only had about 15 deaths on each arm iirc
18:07 punkman kinda shocking to see how little data they are working with
18:08 signpost India appears to not be having another covid wave. perhaps later it will, or perhaps "let it burn" isn't so unwise.
18:09 punkman "UK is doing well with Delta variant because of great vaxx rate" "Oh yeah, what about India?"
18:09 signpost punkman: yeah, personally I deemed the risk acceptable to get vaccinated, but I certainly fucking wont be injecting mRNA yearly without way more data collected.
18:09 signpost in fact given the apparent low risk of the vaccinated, *getting* delta might be the best move
18:10 signpost who fucking knows. they'll have written about it in 20yrs.
18:11 mats signpost: what if el sol is actually helios taking a nap
18:11 signpost wut
18:12 mats http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050629 << anyone thats worked in a trauma centre will agree that youd probably be lucky to die in a car accident
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-08 13:48:02 punkman: in greece: 2020 increase in total deaths: 4.6%, 2017 increase: 4.8%
18:12 punkman I read the papers, was thinking "will have more data by the time vaxx is available for my age group", but not that much more convinced now. sure as fuck the "1 in a million serious adverse event" is not true. just by looking at serious cases in my city compared to total population.
18:12 mats ive heard that from nurses and doctors before, and its not a joke
18:13 punkman mats, you mean compared to covid?
18:13 mats dying is easy, living with a handicap or poorly understood illness is not
18:15 punkman that would indeed change the risk/benefit calculations, but I have yet to see this "long covid pandemic" locally. and going by local data beats looking at US/UK/China or wherever.
18:15 signpost eh, that'd be hard to look for.
18:15 signpost how do you measure "x% of the population was y% dumber z years after the plague"
18:16 punkman is that from the "covid will eath your brain" theory?
18:18 signpost are you disputing that it's been found to cross the blood-brain barrier or what?
18:19 punkman no, not disputing anything. but "covid will make you dumber" is a few steps beyond that.
18:20 signpost my statement was that hypothetical longterm negatives will not be visible enough yet to make firm statements.
18:20 signpost not that covid will definitely have some particular effect.
18:21 signpost mats: macroexpand the glib "helios taking a nap" thing?
18:22 signpost punkman: re: india, cases have also not gone to zero, and we'll find out later what endemic covid-19 means.
18:23 signpost it is at least obviously much nastier than the flu, variants of which have caused tens of millions to die.
18:23 punkman there's a lot of "will found out later" going around, kinda worried we actually won't "find out later" for a lot of it
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18:25 signpost reality doesn't owe me a full explanation, but neither do I drop phenomena on the floor that don't justify what I want.
18:25 signpost all that's available is a shitty incompleteness and placing of bets.
18:25 * signpost would readily grant that this is being used by totalitarians to do what they do.
18:29 mats signpost: i dont have training in medicine or biology and im not gonna speculate
18:31 signpost seems training enough to dismiss a particular social caste's mistrust of government, given latter's long history of trustworthiness.
18:32 punkman mats, do you have someone you trust to do the speculating for you?
18:32 signpost but no, I don't have any reliable model of any of it, other than already stated picture of ???
18:32 mats yes, i have md phds in the wot
18:32 * signpost same, ftr.
18:32 punkman works
18:35 mats i distrust usg about as much as anyone else here i think, its not equivalent to denying science
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18:35 signpost seems like you have an axe to grind on this, rather than a point.
18:35 signpost is punkman unvaccinated or something?
18:40 punkman signpost: yes, might have dunning-krugered myself into it by looking at the science
18:43 * signpost is too dissatisfied by the output of the culture of personal choice, can't be bothered to get worked up about winning someone over on "the issues" anymore.
18:44 signpost the proper algo is probably forcing the entire population to take the vax in waves, heavily monitoring, etc, not unlike a large-scale software rollout.
18:45 signpost this supposes a leadership caste that isn't filled with self-harming perverts, and probably just moves the problem of "spontaneous emergence of constructive human order" rather than solving anything.
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18:46 mats i guess i'm moving through the stages of loss, as i discover alarming numbers of people i know that are missing a few leds in their lamp
18:46 mats makes me question my own judgment
18:47 * signpost same, was boiling with rage over the state of austin, but let it go.
18:47 signpost and you know, that cripple making a political football over giving the unvax'd kids covid.
18:48 signpost trivially one could imagine an approach that lets them go to school, but e.g. moves them into the portables I know the state has in abundance, tests 'em regularly.
18:49 * signpost spent too much time arguing with the mad in years past, just sitting back and watching it burn.
~ 54 minutes ~
19:43 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050632 << where were you able to find this number (for 2020)? i've been looking for it myself but the CDC's reporting tool only goes to 2019
19:43 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-08 14:00:15 punkman: US 2019: 2,854,838 2020: 3,358,814, that's 17.8% increase. guess you got it a lot worse over there
19:46 billymg regarding the discussion in general, i would love it if i could just trust what is being printed, and i would also love it if i felt the current crop of elite's gave a shit about their own people. if so, i would gladly follow orders and not even ask too many questions (i have nothing against hierarchy, or following orders)
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19:46 billymg elites*
19:46 adlai no, signpost , it is much unlike a large-scale software rollout.
19:46 adlai don't make such a bad analogy.
19:47 adlai it is not unlike a large-scale fourth-, fifth-, etc-stage clinical trial.
19:48 adlai the 'software rollout" analogy would be less insane were the popular models of computation anything close to "let's play with plasmids!"
19:50 billymg but as it stands currently, i personally don't know where to get good faith, accurate information (and if anyone said he knew where to find, would not believe). and i sure as hell don't trust the current set of elites with anything, mainly because of their horrible track record
19:51 signpost adlai: were you to say what you think a large-scale software rollout is, or how you'd differ from it, there'd be some chance of a discussion.
19:52 adlai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050620 << beatified due to... the fine smells emanating from how he got arrested in the first place?
19:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-08 12:05:32 billymg: mats: well yes, and they can fire you for having voted for trump, or for not having posted a black square on your instagram profile in the days following st. floyd's death
19:52 signpost billymg: the problem is that inaction is most likely not without cost
19:53 adlai alpha/beta rollouts of apps in the Google Play store is one example
19:53 billymg signpost: yes, aware
19:53 billymg i know it's a gamble not taking the vaccine, but i'm making up for it by exercising more and getting lots of sunlight
19:53 signpost adlai: eh, speaking more of the experiment and measurement that goes on at a layer beneath.
19:54 signpost but instead perhaps say how you'd do it
19:54 adlai a more granular, although usually much messier, example is situations where multiple websites use the same database, and incoming clients get served a different page depending on whatever metric
19:54 billymg at this point i trust my immune system, but of course i don't know for sure, we'll see
19:55 * adlai is not having this conversation now, although thank you for the invitation
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19:55 signpost you invited yourself, lol, but w/e
19:56 * adlai resets the /away message that apparently he tripp and knocked over himself
19:56 * signpost farts in adlai's general direction
19:56 signpost billymg: my grandfather "trusted" (by way of no alternative) his immune system with polio, and happened to beat it
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19:57 signpost walks, etc, no lingering effects whatsoever
19:57 signpost but hard to know whether one will be so lucky.
19:57 billymg signpost: bodes well for the genes that got passed down to you in any case
20:03 punkman billymg: here https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm
20:07 punkman https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate 2020 death rate same level as 1991
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20:07 billymg "From 2019 to 2020, the estimated age-adjusted death rate increased by 15.9%, from 715.2 to 828.7 deaths per 100,000 population. COVID-19 was reported as the underlying cause of death or a contributing cause of death for an estimated 377,883 (11.3%) of those deaths (91.5 deaths per 100,000). "
20:09 billymg so even by the CDC's own admission covid only accounts for 11% of the delta between 2019 and 2020 (if i'm interpreting that correctly)
20:09 billymg do we assume the other 89% is attributed to suicide, drug overdoses, etc. stemming from lockdown depression?
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20:11 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050717 << yeah so what exactly is the big deal again?
20:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-08 16:02:45 punkman: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate 2020 death rate same level as 1991
20:13 punkman billymg: well it's going up
20:13 punkman who knows
20:13 billymg yeah
20:15 billymg not that anyone's keeping score but billymg has not had so much as a cough since the beginning of 2019 after significantly reducing sugar/carbs from diet. prior to that would get sick with flu/cold once or twice a year
20:15 * billymg knocks on wood
20:16 billymg iirc my last annual flu shot was winter 2018
20:16 billymg err, no, perhaps winter 2017
20:20 punkman billymg: see also flu thread
20:20 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-03 13:59:02 punkman: did ya know flu completely disappeared worldwide since last March
20:22 punkman related flu graphs https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide-during-the-covid-pandemic1/
20:26 signpost billymg: nothing wrong with limiting carbs; aren't you also in a lesser populated area of CR?
20:36 billymg punkman: yeah, was following along. i often tell people i think covid is just the annual flu with a new branding department
20:37 billymg signpost: yes, i'm sure that helps as well, but only moved here in march 2020. half of 2019 was in the petri dish of nyc and until moving here as in austin tx
20:37 billymg was* in
20:48 signpost familiar with "terror management theory"?
20:48 billymg no, what's that?
20:50 signpost idea that a conflict between self-preservation and the inevitability of death is something fundamental to being human.
20:50 signpost strikes me that these threads always either say (intentional caricature) that "covid's fake" or "vaccines work (TM)"
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20:51 signpost suggests to me that it has more to do with whatever gets one up in the morning than the real.
20:51 * signpost is not exempt, has plenty of personal myths he recites before breakfast.
20:53 billymg signpost: i can definitely see it
20:54 billymg i don't have the log line handy but asciilifeform hinted at something similar. with the reaction to covid being more a means to sow division while they run off with anything not bolted down
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20:55 billymg i'm sure without the media constantly fanning the hysteria (on both sides) the reaction from ordinary people would be much more muted and civil
20:55 signpost sure, and I'd add that the fuckers at the top are just as terrified.
20:55 signpost cowards all.
21:02 billymg speaking of the cowards at the top, it amazes me that in right wing circles online the discussion of what to do about them only ever revolves around "muh guns" and never around my computer and os
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21:06 billymg it seems like a missed opportunity. i keep waiting for someone like BAP or Vox to come out and say "i've seen the light, we need to get fucking organized with the tools we use to communicate"
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21:08 signpost the "right wing" you're talking about is running on an ideology that can't resolve the terror of death mentioned above in anyone with above room-temperature IQ
21:09 signpost what was the west is going to have to deal with nietzsche's mental breakdown before meaning works again.
21:17 billymg signpost: i'm intrigued and would interested to hear more re: nietzche's mental breakdown and how it relates to meaning in the collapsing west
21:18 billymg nietzsche's*
21:19 signpost worth reading Heidegger.
21:21 billymg i'll check it out, thanks
21:21 signpost but this probably doesn't get fixed broadly unless psychedelics become easily available, and even then, not until the culture redevelops the constructive use.
21:21 signpost What is Called Thinking is damned interesting, highly recommended.
21:23 * signpost has a vague, unoriginal notion that there is a mode of being that considers the machine of language itself as the substrate, and no particular, indispensable uniqueness regarding particular meat-nodes processing it
21:23 signpost is bitcoin a particular node, or the movement of the whole net?
21:23 signpost but this line of discourse plows directly into the terror complex, snore to argue about.
21:26 signpost "let's see how unattached you are with a car battery attached to your nuts" etc., and sure, the machine cries out, but what does this prove?
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21:28 billymg the machine crying out in that example being the person with the current applied to his testicles?
21:31 signpost sure, a cheap dismissal of the idea that the self is just a computation happening on a distributed meat computer is to see what the enlightened say when the suffering's turned up.
21:32 signpost (and there are counterexamples. the famous photo of the burning monk...)
21:33 signpost the line of thinking runs into the terror complex because the self-preservation is attached to the idea-of-self as much as the meat.
21:38 verisimilitude I vaguely remember my disappointment at realizing this so-called pandemic was fake, and not something which would kill hundreds of millions, perhaps leaving more room for me.
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21:40 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050690 I completely agree.
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-08 15:41:58 billymg: regarding the discussion in general, i would love it if i could just trust what is being printed, and i would also love it if i felt the current crop of elite's gave a shit about their own people. if so, i would gladly follow orders and not even ask too many questions (i have nothing against hierarchy, or following orders)
21:41 verisimilitude I need to write today, but I'm not certain what I should write about, and my work will disappoint me no matter what I do.
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~ 44 minutes ~
22:25 whaack i met a surfer-nurse five days ago, he claimed ~ 'i am not right wing, but i have given the vaccine shots to many, and it is not too rare that we shortly after have to rush the person to the ICU, I'm not vaccinated and I wouldn't risk it myself, lots of nurses agree and have fake CDC "i has the vax" cards, i believe what happens is that soon to be vaccine recipients come in with a lil covid that
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22:25 whaack their body can handle, and after the vaccine they have a lot of covid, and then their immune system can no longer handle the problem'
22:39 signpost really needs numbers next to the "many" and "not too rare" though right?
22:40 signpost medical folks *live in* the long tail of horrible shit that can happen to a person.
22:45 mats next time you run into a self styled medical professional, ask them for their name and NPI
22:45 signpost austin's a little over half fully vax'd, city of approx 2.2mil. apparently ICU bed capacity is ~200, (i.e. 0.01% of population)
22:46 signpost maybe it gets way worse, but for now, we've been able to stay under that remarkably low number of severe cases.
22:46 mats last goof i ran into at the gym got a confused look on his face when he realised he didnt know medical providers have IDs in a public registry
22:47 signpost lol
22:53 mats that said there are definitely RNs CNAs etc who have problems with the vaccine
22:54 mats and its not a right wing problem as much as the talking heads would have folks believe
22:54 mats vax hesitancy is disproportionately higher in black and brown demos, who in most years besides 2016 heavily lean left
22:55 whaack whlie his anecedotal evidence may be a b.s. argument, i spoke with him enough to be 99.99% sure he is indeed a nurse. and someone with his name shows up in that registry
22:55 mats heh
22:57 whaack and by his anecedotal being b.s., i mean more that my retelling of it is b.s. (as i go 1 degree from the source)
22:58 signpost after we solve this, we're still going to have an acidifying ocean, mineral-depleted food, droughts, fires, and balls full of plastic.
22:58 signpost :D
22:58 signpost none of us have anything on this other than gut.
23:02 * signpost figures better get the people who can actually do anything about it into a wot before complexity ceiling impact.
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