06:11 |
punkman |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-17#1046279 << I think it's more likely they stop enforcing 21million limit than segwit |
| |
↖ |
06:11 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-17 17:15:43 whaack: the day of reckoning can come when miners stop enforcing the segwit rule and loads of "bitcoin" users have their coins wiped out from under their feet |
06:13 |
punkman |
btw you can even wrap segwit tx in "normal" P2SH tx |
| |
~ 28 minutes ~ |
06:41 |
punkman |
https://news.bitcoin.com/4-consecutive-difficulty-drops-make-bitcoin-block-rewards-49-easier-to-find/ |
06:47 |
punkman |
"the LiteCoin ($36) founder sold 100% of his coins as it ran up to $300 while wearing a HODL shirt for video interviews. And he was also wash trading nearly 100% of the GDAX volume in LTC trading pairs for months after it listed and while he was an employee of Coinbase/GDAX." |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 45 minutes ~ |
07:33 |
mats |
https://www.crowdsupply.com/1bitsquared/glasgow |
| |
~ 16 minutes ~ |
07:50 |
* |
punkman wonders how much sense does it make to hypothesize about "future segwit fork" when this has already happened and it's called "Bitcoin Cash" |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 4 hours 20 minutes ~ |
12:10 |
punkman |
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22329 "bitcoind uses 24GB of memory despite configuration" "Everything in the wallet is currently loaded into memory, so if your wallet file is large, so will the RAM usage for that wallet. There is some long term and ongoing work to load things on demand, but there is no expected time for when that might |
12:10 |
punkman |
be complete. |
12:10 |
punkman |
" |
12:10 |
punkman |
such progress |
| |
~ 2 hours 29 minutes ~ |
14:39 |
billymg |
punkman: my understanding is that because segwit was implemented via "soft fork" defecting and refusing to enforce it would not result in a hard fork of the network (new coin). though i don't doubt that the "community" would at least attempt to fork to restore the coins, but they'd be the ones forking then, not the defecting miners |
| |
↖ |
14:39 |
billymg |
whereas not enforcing the 21M limit would immediately result in a hard fork |
| |
~ 3 hours 15 minutes ~ |
17:55 |
whaack |
if anyone here has a query they want to run on trbexplorer that the interface does not provide, please inform me and i'll make it available if it seems right |
17:55 |
whaack |
!e help |
17:55 |
trbexplorer |
whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance |
17:56 |
whaack |
i would like to expose the sql schema and provide a way to run raw sql commands, does anyone know if there's a way, using python's sqlite3 module, to restrict commands to READ permission? |
18:01 |
whaack |
punkman: billymg is right. Atm some people have added a new rule (segwit) to bitcoin that trb and actual bitcoin users have no obligation to enforce. As asciilifeform once said beautifully, ~ "they are like the people in India who ride ontop of a train. They are "on the train" for as long as the train does not pass through a tunnel. |
18:01 |
whaack |
" |
18:02 |
whaack |
asciilifeform: apologies if that's a misquote, but i recall reading you write something like that somewhere in the log |
18:06 |
whaack |
punkman: The bar for swooping the coins is low. The miners just have to...run trb. And afaik no one's node is going to stop (not even prb's, seeing as they don't seem to validate anything anyways). Segwit users are just going to see their balances go to zero as the 'anyone can spend' coins are moved to addresses where you need to provide a signature to spend the coins. |
18:07 |
whaack |
I've spoken to some segwit people on this and they seem to think that this cataclysmic event is the end of bitcoin since a majority of exchanges are using segwit and bech32 etc. But I don't think that's the case anymore than Mtgox was the end of bitcoin. |
18:09 |
whaack |
!e height |
18:09 |
trbexplorer |
690611 |
18:09 |
whaack |
!e view-transaction 690611 0 |
18:09 |
trbexplorer |
whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance |
18:09 |
whaack |
!e view-txn 690611 0 |
18:09 |
trbexplorer |
http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Bv-L 1 of 1 |
18:11 |
whaack |
odd, miner sends 3 outputs to 0 satoshi data txns |
18:12 |
whaack |
!e view-txn 690611 1 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
TXN OVERVIEW |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
txn_hash: b9c2374e8b3ee55b770689a729a54336d77f766848cb46ea71e8a053e3196983 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
block_height: 690611 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
txn_index: 1 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
size: 114 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
INPUTS |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
txn_hash: fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
out_index: 1 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
value_sats: 15128979 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
scriptsig: |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
OUTPUTS |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
address: 87cbd83d1431730d628a1b25577faf8e1ea33f900114a9 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
value_sats: 2943880 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
address: 7106379bb6c60edd732e2b2618f58a85152646831400 |
18:12 |
trbexplorer |
value_sats: 12155417 |
18:14 |
whaack |
So this transaciton uses as an input some sorta segwit bs, i guess, since the scriptsig is empty |
18:15 |
whaack |
let's look at the output it consumes |
18:15 |
whaack |
or rather the txn that contains the output it consumes |
18:15 |
whaack |
!e view-txn fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
TXN OVERVIEW |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
txn_hash: fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
block_height: 690608 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
txn_index: 34 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
size: 116 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
INPUTS |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
txn_hash: a23cc8d1914598ffeddd1bdc9cb363bd173f11a9fdc9faf98ac187842b6c4c7e |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
out_index: 1 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
value_sats: 15832068 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
scriptsig: |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
OUTPUTS |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
address: 1ELNmEVRtQHijqykGsAaZVAGQ7Wik2eifY |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
value_sats: 673407 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
address: 1a3f537545d72550325df2c4114ba25fd3c8d88f1400 |
18:15 |
trbexplorer |
value_sats: 15128979 |
18:16 |
mats |
did we see the same p2sh chart? there's 5.6mn btc up for grabs |
18:17 |
mats |
some % of miners defecting and taking a % of that loot could be an extinction event |
| |
↖ ↖ |
18:23 |
whaack |
mats: If using bitcoin extinguishes bicoin then it's already dead in the water |
| |
↖ |
18:23 |
whaack |
bitcoin* |
18:23 |
mats |
for comparison, makerdao in 2016 had about 15% of all ether, and iirc the attacker drained like 4mn of about ~80mn ether before the fork |
18:28 |
whaack |
So the segwit users hard fork, then bitcoin users again get free options, they sell on the segwit hardfork and buyback on the bitcoin network as explained here http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/ |
| |
↖ |
18:30 |
whaack |
!e view-raw-txn -paste fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8 |
18:30 |
trbexplorer |
http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wds3 1 of 1 |
18:31 |
mats |
i lived through those events too, this isn't similar, it strikes at the fundamental viability of bitcoins |
| |
↖ |
18:32 |
mats |
this is the genius of the power rangers work |
18:33 |
mats |
like it or not, ~30% of the monetary supply is vulnerable |
18:33 |
mats |
(probably more, since a couple million coins might be lost) |
18:36 |
whaack |
mats: indeed it is a well crafted evil poison slipped into bitcoin |
18:40 |
billymg |
mats: in that case i guess we're all just waiting around for an "authorized" use of anyone-can-spend. i.e. "ransomware hacker" parks coins in a segwit address, UN orders miners to move them over to a UN address, the prb community cheers because it's authorized, and for "justice" |
18:41 |
billymg |
in which case bitcoin is already subverted |
18:41 |
billymg |
honestly i'd rather "kill bitcoin" if it means forking into a real bitcoin and a UN bitcoin |
18:43 |
mats |
lol, UN bitcoin |
18:44 |
whaack |
PLUS, the evil idiots who created this scam in the first place may be already trying to steal the coins they convinced people to put in anyone-can-spend addresses |
18:44 |
mats |
if public reports about distribution of hash among nations are any good, that's very unlikely |
18:44 |
whaack |
so no doubt the right move is to attack it, question is how to split the rewards with the miner, 50/50? |
18:46 |
mats |
in order, its cn, us, kz, ru, ir |
18:46 |
whaack |
maybe 98% miner and 2% for yourself, i'm happy with 2% of 5mil+ coin |
| |
↖ |
18:46 |
mats |
3/5 of those players don't want anything to do with the rules based us-led intl order, and are actively working to subvert it |
| |
↖ |
18:47 |
mats |
beijing most of all desires a return to a multipolar world, with room to move and without having to be accountable to anyone but the party |
18:49 |
mats |
in a showdown between trbcoin and segwitcoin, trb loses |
| |
↖ |
18:50 |
billymg |
mats: how? if they keep running segwit coin then the miners can keep draining their addresses |
18:50 |
billymg |
however many times they fork to refill 'em |
18:51 |
billymg |
unless they add in some "authorized miners only" in which case even the mouthbreathing users will realize that segwit coin is centralized coin |
18:52 |
whaack |
on a technical level trb has a massive advantage |
18:55 |
mats |
the miners that inappropriately spend segwit coin see their transactions unwound, and if they can't cooperate to do that, maybe that's the end of btc |
| |
↖ |
18:57 |
mats |
illiquidity induces fear like nothing else |
| |
↖ |
18:57 |
whaack |
mats: That's not the end of btc, the miners have the right to unwind the transactions if they're willing to pay to do so |
18:57 |
whaack |
as unideal as that is |
18:58 |
whaack |
so they spend a lot to unwind the 'unauthorized' segwit txn, things go back to the current status quo, and the 'attack vector' remains |
19:01 |
billymg |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046423 << also, if this is true (i hope it is) then the coin that wins is the one that *isn't* susceptible to political pressure |
19:01 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 14:46:38 mats: 3/5 of those players don't want anything to do with the rules based us-led intl order, and are actively working to subvert it |
19:02 |
billymg |
why would any country want the presence of an anyone-can-spend loophole unless they're the only nation that can exploit it |
19:06 |
* |
whaack brb, food |
19:18 |
shinohai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046406 <<< This was always my understanding, both from linked Qntra and reading asciilifeform 's http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009 |
19:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 14:28:09 whaack: So the segwit users hard fork, then bitcoin users again get free options, they sell on the segwit hardfork and buyback on the bitcoin network as explained here http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/ |
| |
~ 23 minutes ~ |
19:42 |
whaack |
shinohai: how does asciilifeform's piece relate? |
| |
↖ |
19:42 |
whaack |
if anything the 'kill switch' is now the 5mil coins held in anyone can spend |
19:43 |
whaack |
that's 5 mil coins to a miner or group of miners who have 51% of the network |
19:44 |
shinohai |
whaack: I was referring specifically to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009#selection-231.0-235.282 |
19:56 |
whaack |
shinohai: I admit I still don't follow, but it's okay if you don't want to take the time to spell it out. |
| |
~ 27 minutes ~ |
20:23 |
signpost |
this idea that trb has some kind of strategic advantage is complete nonsense. |
20:24 |
signpost |
as mats says, draining the segwitcoins would extinguish bitcoin, and some other network would take its place. |
| |
↖ |
20:25 |
signpost |
this isn't happening in a vacuum, and saint mp of lost causes is not watching over trb. |
20:25 |
signpost |
it's a piece of shoddy trash we never got finished decrufting. |
20:28 |
whaack |
signpost: so trb users are beholden to all new rules i.e. softforks that prb imposes? |
20:29 |
signpost |
no, they can fork off into a network of their own, pretending that trbcoin is a unit of account in their imaginary economy, I suppose |
20:31 |
signpost |
contrary to the teachings of mp, declaring victory is not all that is required. |
20:31 |
whaack |
my point in saying that trb has a 'massive technical advantage' is that if segwit coins get drained, trb still has an accounting system, whereas segwit users do not |
20:31 |
signpost |
so what? |
20:32 |
whaack |
so for the 98% of the world not involved in bitcoin, but have heard the term, trb users have a product to sell and segwit users do not |
20:32 |
whaack |
segwit users will say 'bitcoin is broken! it was hacked!' and trb users will say 'nah, just download this client' |
20:33 |
whaack |
i admit that the infrastructure of a huge number of wallets and exchanges collapsing does not bode well |
| |
↖ |
20:33 |
signpost |
that is utter nonsense. "bitcoin failed." is what will happen in that scenario. |
| |
↖ |
20:34 |
signpost |
if you want the economic phenomenon called bitcoin to proceed, you'd better hope the segwit piggy is *not* cracked open. |
| |
↖ |
20:35 |
signpost |
to give mp a small amount of credit, why do you suppose he chose "the darkening" to refer to this era? |
20:36 |
signpost |
it is quite likely from where I sit that what comes next is a chinese-style totalitarian "smart contract" system, much like while peripheral nerds can use p2p warez networks just like they did in the old days, the *economic phenomenon* of mp3/rar/etc was crushed. |
20:36 |
signpost |
and we'll recall the old days of real p2p. |
20:37 |
whaack |
i admit that the thought that bitcoin depends on the miner's continuing to enforce the softfork of segwit is so daunting that i may just have trouble swallowing that idea |
20:37 |
signpost |
if you don't want that, quite a lot of work to be done. |
20:37 |
signpost |
it sucks, eh? I agree. |
20:37 |
signpost |
there's something rotten in the soul of man that desires enslavement. |
| |
↖ ↖ |
20:38 |
signpost |
(this btw is perhaps the clearest statement of my disagreement with mp. he didn't see this as a bug) |
20:40 |
whaack |
no hope, i guess, of getting a mass movement off of segwit - i.e. convincing all the well meanining bitcoiners without the werewithal to see the dangers of segwit to move their coins to a safe address while the current mining cartel is enforcing the new rule |
20:41 |
signpost |
consider what otehr "mass movements" there'd be if this were possible. |
| |
↖ ↖ |
20:41 |
signpost |
*other |
20:42 |
* |
signpost does not btw consider his own life hopeless in the slightest because of this. |
20:44 |
billymg |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046469 << good point, a large percentage of holders can't even be bothered to take their coins off coinbase |
20:44 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 16:41:52 signpost: consider what otehr "mass movements" there'd be if this were possible. |
20:45 |
whaack |
the problem i guess is that when an exchange goes down and their customers lose their coins the customers know they are responsible |
20:47 |
whaack |
whereas those losing their coins in a segwit swoop may be self-righteous about 'having done their due diligence' or something |
20:49 |
signpost |
spoken as broadly as possible, "mass awakening" has been anticipated long enough. |
20:49 |
signpost |
"hope" is in the direction of connecting the graph of thinking men, however big or small it may be. |
| |
↖ |
20:53 |
billymg |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046459 << would you see the result of this being a freedom btc trading in the triple digits? because while it would sting, might not be the end of the world |
20:53 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 16:34:29 signpost: if you want the economic phenomenon called bitcoin to proceed, you'd better hope the segwit piggy is *not* cracked open. |
20:54 |
punkman |
signpost gets it |
20:54 |
punkman |
there are in fact no "anyone can spend" coins right now |
20:54 |
punkman |
if you do this, you are making anothe Bitcoin Cash |
| |
↖ |
20:54 |
punkman |
and we can see how that played out |
20:54 |
punkman |
(or Bitcoin ABC, Bitcoin SV and I dunno what else) |
20:55 |
signpost |
yep |
20:55 |
signpost |
billymg: what'd distinguish this coin next to any of the others of ^ |
| |
↖ |
20:56 |
punkman |
at best, I can see a future fork that deprecates segwit or whatever "innovation" the power rangers come up with |
20:56 |
punkman |
but that would require the segwit coins to be moved back to normal addresses |
20:56 |
punkman |
which is doable |
20:56 |
billymg |
punkman: you may be right that this is how it would be perceived at a social level (i.e. buterin eth is ETH while real ETH is ETC), but on a technical level spending the anyone can spend coins is not something that would cause a fork, no? |
20:57 |
signpost |
which brings the thing back to "why this particular one", and the reason can't be "*this* one sanctified by some larping on the internet one time" |
20:57 |
punkman |
real ETH is buterin ETH, there is no question about this |
20:57 |
billymg |
i mean, it might trigger some people to fork in order to reverse the transactions (i'm sure it would) |
20:57 |
signpost |
the social level is the foundation, not the tech. |
20:57 |
signpost |
tech flows out of culture, which is the graph of people doing whichever peculiar thing. |
20:58 |
billymg |
signpost: true, social and capital levels are the foundation, not the tech |
20:58 |
signpost |
press instead in the direction of facilitating sane culture on the nets, however small, imho. |
20:59 |
billymg |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046486 << in theory might be the coin preferred by >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046477 |
20:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 16:55:58 signpost: billymg: what'd distinguish this coin next to any of the others of ^ |
20:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 16:49:56 signpost: "hope" is in the direction of connecting the graph of thinking men, however big or small it may be. |
20:59 |
signpost |
(which includes yes, pointing out every flaw in prb, but knowing the flaws doesn't mass the army to kill it) |
| |
↖ |
20:59 |
signpost |
billymg: I think I just answered you with ^ |
21:00 |
signpost |
(on that point as well) |
21:00 |
billymg |
signpost: as in, at the moment would be no more than suicide mission? |
21:01 |
signpost |
neh, no one would care to kill ya. |
21:01 |
billymg |
i meant suicide for bitcoin, the economic phenomenon (if segwit piggy broken) |
21:02 |
signpost |
I'll just say it serves nothing I wish to see occur. |
21:02 |
billymg |
i interpreted your point as: first amass army and culture (however many centuries that takes), then strike |
21:03 |
signpost |
if it takes centuries, high-tech totalitarianism wins until we have garage-fabbed spacecraft. |
21:03 |
signpost |
"we" |
21:04 |
mats |
won't take that long, just some people on venus or mars with sustainable ag would be enough |
21:05 |
punkman |
garage-fabbed bio weapons is when things get interesting |
| |
↖ |
21:05 |
mats |
distance/time is enough for sovereignty, like the 13 colonies |
| |
↖ |
21:05 |
signpost |
punkman: I figure that one's not so easy to aim. |
21:05 |
punkman |
easier than garage spaceship |
21:05 |
signpost |
granted to both mats and punkman |
21:06 |
punkman |
fairly certain I'm gonna see garace-covid in my lifetime |
21:06 |
* |
signpost wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
21:06 |
signpost |
and *perhaps* on top of that, a cryptocurrency, although with a strong wot, it really starts to matter less. |
21:07 |
* |
signpost operated the wallet perfectly, challenges anyone to say otherwise. |
21:07 |
punkman |
"stage n, bitcoin exists" or what was it |
21:08 |
signpost |
100% agree garage-covid is coming. |
21:08 |
signpost |
also will be interesting to see the evolutionary effect of the mrna vaccine "pulling of the stick" |
21:08 |
whaack |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046482 < The difference is trb users have funds on both segwit-coin and trb, while segwit users have funds on only 1 of the 2 forks |
21:08 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 16:54:24 punkman: if you do this, you are making anothe Bitcoin Cash |
21:09 |
* |
signpost reminds whaack of mp's "from cause, not towards purpose", which is perhaps one of the wisest framings signpost encountered. |
21:10 |
signpost |
one can't just imagine the trb network whole, big enough to dump enough prbcoin to make trbcoin rise. |
21:10 |
signpost |
how. by what causes. |
21:12 |
punkman |
and we can even find examples of people that dumped their prbcoin to keep their real-bitcoin, but now they only have real-bitcoin-cash, and not real-bitcoin |
21:13 |
billymg |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046513 << i don't see how anyone could argue, but without first fixing the critical bug it won't last long, regardless of planet or galaxy or whatever |
21:13 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 17:05:08 mats: distance/time is enough for sovereignty, like the 13 colonies |
21:13 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 16:37:39 signpost: there's something rotten in the soul of man that desires enslavement. |
21:13 |
* |
signpost sees it growing out of the terror of death. |
21:13 |
mats |
bitcoin won't work further than luna anyway |
21:14 |
billymg |
heh |
21:14 |
signpost |
one can find me prattling about the atomic self being the bug in the logs. |
21:14 |
mats |
centralisation is on a continuum, necessary for basic activities like meeting and making markets |
| |
↖ |
21:15 |
punkman |
hanbot is possible only person with enough bitcoin to bootstrap a trb-coin |
| |
↖ ↖ |
21:15 |
signpost |
perhaps, if prior measures weren't $numberOfSharesOnMpex * $exchRate |
21:16 |
whaack |
punkman: with that argument satoshi helping is a possibility as well |
21:16 |
punkman |
will be a fun time when satoshi funds move |
21:16 |
signpost |
punkman: not that hanbot pronouncing "All will love me and despair!" wouldn't entertain me greatly. |
21:17 |
signpost |
go get it, girl. |
21:17 |
punkman |
my suspicion is that satoshi fund never moves, since none of it has moved until now |
21:17 |
punkman |
even Kleiman and Craig's stash might be lost forever |
21:21 |
mats |
the anime 'eden of the east' is a fun dramatization of a satoshi airdropping 8bn yen (~75mn usd) in digital currency to 12 randos and telling them to change nippon |
21:24 |
mats |
if hanbot is reading, please to return jurov's money, some of us still want to fight you know |
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21:24 |
punkman |
I was looking at mining hardware and calculators today. ROI seems very reasonable if you can get free (or almost free) electricity. |
21:28 |
whaack |
lol "get free" i.e. steal? |
21:29 |
punkman |
whaack: sure that's one way to go about it |
21:31 |
punkman |
find place that's not gonna notice extra 2-3kw, gets you like $30/day at current prices |
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21:35 |
punkman |
you need to not lose/burn machine in less than 4-5 months, and you are golden |
21:39 |
punkman |
there's a good amount of idle PV installations around here, could definitely lease cheap |
21:41 |
punkman |
(they got big subsidies to build, hoping they'd sell energy back to power company, but power company figured out it was uneconomical to connect all these small installations to the grid. so they sit |
21:43 |
punkman |
I have an invitation to invest in PV coop. They say they can build 1mw installations for 600k EUR, bank will loan 480k, 120k from investors. They want to do 100 x 1mw and then do substations that connect back to grid. |
21:44 |
punkman |
marketing materials claiming 20-30% return per year. which makes me suspicious. |
21:47 |
punkman |
even more suspicious, each member of coop gets one vote, no matter how many shares they hold. and maximum of 400k total investment per member. which I'm 99% sure means they want to fill coop with local goatfuckers and embezzle as much as they can |
21:51 |
punkman |
I've sent list of questions to contact, but I expect "you are uninvited" instead of any serious answers |
21:58 |
mats |
its a great time to borrow fiat imo |
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21:59 |
punkman |
yeah if you can get it |
21:59 |
mats |
borrowing against btc is still a shit deal, very capital inefficient |
22:01 |
whaack |
so, pondering this discussion, I guess trb users are now the ones hijacking onto the prb network, using the larger prb network in perhaps a smarter way. My previous idea was that prb users were hijacking onto the trb network |
22:01 |
punkman |
guy I know is borrowing 1mil for building in central EU, almost 0% downpayment, gonna rent to poor people on welfare. All that money and work, and he expects to make about 800-1000 eur per month (after loan payments, maintenance). |
22:01 |
mats |
gotta overcollaterize 100-150%, interest rates are like 8-10 |
22:01 |
whaack |
or in other words, trb used to be the host, prb the virus, now prb is the host, trb the virus |
22:02 |
whaack |
and now trb is in the unfortunate position where it cannot kill its host |
22:03 |
whaack |
unless we have a doctor, farmer, tailor, architect, etc. all lurking in this channel |
22:03 |
mats |
huh? |
22:03 |
punkman |
what's doctor farmer gonna do |
22:04 |
whaack |
point was that trb needs to be a big enough economy on its own to be self sustaining |
22:06 |
punkman |
whaack, you mean tmsr2:electric boogaloo needs big enough economy |
22:07 |
whaack |
more or less |
22:07 |
whaack |
btw, does anyone in channel run a full prb node with all the segwit data included? thimbronion? |
22:07 |
signpost |
yes, lemme see if it's still up. |
22:10 |
signpost |
nvm, trashed it |
22:10 |
punkman |
bitcoins cash sitting around 1-2 exahash, not bad |
22:11 |
punkman |
100 exa on prb |
22:11 |
whaack |
i guess it would be quite a time consuming project in and of itself to verify that that prb full node *actually* contains all the sigs |
22:12 |
punkman |
read thread saying prb never added any new checkpoints past 2014 |
22:13 |
* |
whaack will bbl, or tomorrow, cheers |
22:13 |
punkman |
I wonder if that means prb is actually verifying everything past last checkpoint |
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~ 42 minutes ~ |
22:56 |
punkman |
https://hashrateindex.com/machines/sha256-rig-index |
22:58 |
punkman |
https://hashrateindex.com/reviews/steve-barbour-s9 oilrig miner guy says "even today, over four years since its release, we are still exclusively using S9s when much more efficient hardware is available on the market" |
22:58 |
punkman |
quite interesting |
23:01 |
punkman |
https://compassmining.io/education/oklo-compass-fission-mining-partnership/ |
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~ 40 minutes ~ |
23:42 |
punkman |
https://www.chia.net/ Bram Cohen (bittorrent guy) finally launched his thing. Mining rigs are pile of HDDs, so when you stop mining, you still got pile of HDDs. |
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23:51 |
mats |
this destroys disks tho |
23:53 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046337 << for some values of 'they', already many times 'stopped', neh. |
23:53 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 02:11:36 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-17#1046279 << I think it's more likely they stop enforcing 21million limit than segwit |
23:55 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046341 << shitcoin perpetrators are guilty until proven innocent (lol--proven how?) of this and more. |
23:55 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 02:47:50 punkman: "the LiteCoin ($36) founder sold 100% of his coins as it ran up to $300 while wearing a HODL shirt for video interviews. And he was also wash trading nearly 100% of the GDAX volume in LTC trading pairs for months after it listed and while he was an employee of Coinbase/GDAX." |
23:55 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046343 << moar than one, even (i recall sumthing-or-other 'gold' etc) |
23:55 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 03:50:03 punkman: wonders how much sense does it make to hypothesize about "future segwit fork" when this has already happened and it's called "Bitcoin Cash" |
23:56 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046348 << this is correct, or at least was last i bothered to look inside prb (0.10? iirc) |
23:56 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 10:39:24 billymg: punkman: my understanding is that because segwit was implemented via "soft fork" defecting and refusing to enforce it would not result in a hard fork of the network (new coin). though i don't doubt that the "community" would at least attempt to fork to restore the coins, but they'd be the ones forking then, not the defecting miners |
23:59 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046402 << pretty sure we had at least one 'what does it mean to ask whether bitcoin still works?' thread, and not long ago |
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23:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-18 14:17:39 mats: some % of miners defecting and taking a % of that loot could be an extinction event |
23:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-12-17 16:37:18 asciilifeform: re upstack , imho important q for any participant to answer ~for himself~, 'does bitcoin work? what does it mean for it to work?' (see also e.g.) |
23:59 |
asciilifeform |
for instance asciilifeform strongly suspects that what for mats would be 'extinct', for asciilifeform would be a beautiful dream. e.g. $1 btc for next 10y. |