Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-07-06 | 2021-07-08 →
01:59 shinohai What a log today. Still don't feel bad about sneaking a tranny into the tits promotion and onto the pages of Trilema, where it still sits today.
~ 3 hours 33 minutes ~
05:32 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-04#1001446 << reminds me of "To ask "how specifically is it unprincipled" does not yield an answer, at any rate not above and beyond identifying the party asking with the enemy."
05:32 dulapbot Logged on 2019-11-04 19:05:42 asciilifeform: to my shame, mats, i hated kako 'ethnically' , i.e. saw him as unprincipled 'all about the coin' fella. rather like what i nao think of mp .
~ 1 hours 36 minutes ~
07:09 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043270 <<< what?
07:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-06 17:36:47 mats: if you haven't heard yet, i was also robbed, and there was an extra 0 in my loss
07:21 mats coinbr had my monies
~ 1 hours 46 minutes ~
09:08 verisimilitude As the common wisdom goes, isn't that an improper use of the possessive?
~ 5 hours 30 minutes ~
14:38 asciilifeform davout: see 1, 2.
14:38 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-11 04:53:33 jurov: to make matters clear from my side: "withdrawals are possible except for people who ask" === "mpex is in default and thus coinbr too"
14:38 dulapbot (therealbitcoin) 2020-06-06 mats: yes, i understand some of you in here wanted just this outcome
14:39 asciilifeform and 3.
14:39 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-13 09:48:38 asciilifeform: jurov: be sure to let yer customers know they weren't stolen from, but rather 'condemned to confiscation by the sovereign'.
14:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'possession is 9/10th of the law'(tm)(r)(c)
14:42 asciilifeform davout: mp committed this act of goxing i suspect simply to see whether any of his remaining cultists would 'blink'. (none did.)
14:49 shinohai Pepperidge farms remembers tho
14:57 kakobrekla and when it happend to me, instead of doing a bank run, the good folx here (and there) were "kako had it coming"
14:58 kakobrekla its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me
14:58 kakobrekla pure insanity from my pov
15:01 punkman my instinct was that everyone would get kako'd eventually, guess it wasn't wrong
15:06 kakobrekla my name was verbalized!
15:06 kakobrekla can drown in peace now.
~ 18 minutes ~
15:24 punkman I tried playing Eulora, was another point of losing hope
15:27 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-03-10#1428696
15:27 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-10 punkman: diana_coman: i just hated everything about it. moving/finding things in inventory, trying to equip things and and ending up with phantom copies if I didn't click just right. Trying to walk and floating at a 45 degree angle, falling to death off smooth hills. The claim sticks that are "points" in space and keys and... I dunno. I suppose some of that might have changed already.
15:28 punkman I wonder how it looks now :P
~ 15 minutes ~
15:44 shinohai punkman, do you really want to know? http://ossasepia.com/wp-content/themes/default/images/header.jpg
~ 49 minutes ~
16:33 thestringpuller shinohai: meanwhile o3de just dropped so I'm kinda astounded they tried to build a graphics pipeline out of cyrstalspace which is a dead end at this point
16:34 thestringpuller also sinbad's Ogre3D has been out for years and I think just added vulkan support iirc
16:36 shinohai thestringpuller: Most I ever did with Eulora besides play a bit was fuck about with jurov's lisp listener for it. Managed to get it echo back game activity/trades to irc. That's about it.
16:36 shinohai The C++ side was just too gnarly to maintain my interest in it.
16:38 thestringpuller reading diana_coman's blog on eulora dev was like reading a 3D Game Dev book from circa 2002; would have been impossible to use modern GPU tactics in the 3d engine that was tightly coupled with the client
16:39 thestringpuller at that point why not write voxel engine from scratch? *shrugs*
16:43 punkman just picking planeshift was a terrible decision
16:44 punkman and then spending 6-7? years fighting the thing instead of throwing it out
16:46 punkman ah no, apparently diana started in 2016
16:49 thestringpuller when i tried doing a 3d pipeline export from blender it was like writing max script for 2004 to export 3d models without middleware which is one of the most painful aspects of game development (like late 90s console development)
~ 33 minutes ~
17:22 asciilifeform punkman: what ought they have picked instead in '16 ?
17:23 asciilifeform (as i understand, the intent was to make 100% from-source 3d thing. i.e. w/out dependence on gpu driver turds. which inevitably means '1990s' style. )
17:24 asciilifeform ftr '1990s 3d graphics' does not have to mean 'rubbish', if talented programmers are involved. (simply so happens that in the s.mg case -- they weren't involved..)
17:29 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043306 << bbut, such productive!11111 expert!11
17:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 11:24:46 punkman: I tried playing Eulora, was another point of losing hope
17:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-27 10:54:47 asciilifeform: managerial types luvv these to death, they reliably produce 'steady labour' flavour that satisfies performance metrics, whether bureaucratic (reich orgs incl. usg) or sadomasochistic (mp's)
17:31 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043301 << i could be wrong, but iirc most mpex users in fact got out even before kakobrekla was walked on.
17:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 10:58:04 kakobrekla: its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me
17:32 asciilifeform asciilifeform, otoh, didn't even have an acct. was in for entirely different reasons.
17:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
17:41 thestringpuller asciilifeform: what ought they have picked instead in '16 ? << roll voxel engine that runs purely on CPU then. although GPU drivers do indeed suck, you either choose to stay in 1994 circa PSX (as stated plenty of good games use this aesthetic) or tolerate the turd and use modern aesthetics by leveraging the card
17:42 thestringpuller was half expecting announcement of "eulora GPU" at some point
17:46 kakobrekla asciilifeform how many scam-schisms before bb fiasco and consequent ba split?
17:53 asciilifeform kakobrekla: hm which ones are you thinking of ? ( possibly the 'otc' schism which produced 'assets' ? this was before asciilifeform tuned in -- though it oughta be in log, under #t, asciilifeform imported phf's dump which in turn was purported to go back to '11 )
17:53 asciilifeform ( for folx who downloaded db -- is marked 'era 0' )
17:55 asciilifeform crib sheet: 'eta 0' -- above; 'era 1' - #b-a; 'era 2' -- trilemic period when phf had the only reliable logger; 'era 3' -- all fleanode log post-dating 2 (and to present day); 'era 4' -- dulapnet.
17:56 asciilifeform there is in fact a mix of '3' and '4' lines entered on a typical day now.
17:57 * davout is interested in downloading said db
17:57 asciilifeform davout: link at the bottom of log page.
17:57 asciilifeform it's a cron and runs erry hr.
17:58 davout ty
17:59 asciilifeform there's one db covering all chans, and subsumed all previous loggers. (the only chan removed was #eulora, after mp kicked snsabot out of it in a fit of 'will buy ticket and then walk! to spite the conductor!')
18:00 asciilifeform davout: next to that link is 'source', goes to my www and complete version history of this logotron.
18:00 davout i'm mostly interested for historical purposes
18:01 davout archiving for posterity
18:01 asciilifeform davout: it's there, and if you want commented schema, see src link.
18:02 davout thank you
18:02 asciilifeform billymg has a mirror (tho his aint tuned into dulapnet yet) so it's unlikely to get lost, even when asciilifeform drowns
18:03 asciilifeform moar mirrors, however, the merrier.
~ 42 minutes ~
18:45 gregory4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043315 << I still remember NeHe productions and such.
18:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 12:38:07 thestringpuller: reading diana_coman's blog on eulora dev was like reading a 3D Game Dev book from circa 2002; would have been impossible to use modern GPU tactics in the 3d engine that was tightly coupled with the client
18:47 mats http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043284 << if you dont think btc can survive contact with fiat institutions, whats been the motivation behind your btc involvement?
18:47 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-06 19:23:07 dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 18:28:29 asciilifeform: mats: depends who eats whom, doesn't it.
18:51 shinohai Most fiat institutions not running real node, and seem to be all about "muh layer-2!" from my view.
18:54 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043352 << imho, btc and fiat-institutions will eternally fight until one devours the other. asciilifeform's orig. involvement was outta curiosity, to see how the hell 'david' not yet succumbed to 'goliath'.
18:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 14:47:14 mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043284 << if you dont think btc can survive contact with fiat institutions, whats been the motivation behind your btc involvement?
18:55 davout i think it's a false dichotomy to consider to be either "fiat" or "butts"
18:56 thestringpuller davout: came to that conclusion a few years ago
18:56 asciilifeform davout: some form of fiatola will always exist, strictly because more bovine-convenient.
18:56 asciilifeform q is whether the printolade-fueled usury 'industry' will succeed in doing to bitcoin what ibm&microshit succeeded in doing to linux.
18:57 thestringpuller i remember asciilifeform saying "spending BTC is like sawing off piece of limb" - very much feels this way the longer goes on. would rather spend whatever comes out of the main cash flow nozzle
18:58 davout asciilifeform i have no problem with this kind of scenario
18:59 asciilifeform thestringpuller: imho the current exch rate consists largely of air, and is in fact part of the current lizard ploy to 'drop btc from a plane without a parachute' by pumping and periodically dumping
18:59 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:56:14 asciilifeform: it worx because there's a neverending supply of a) dumb shits who see 'paper gold' as == to actual b) greedy shits who want 'leverage'
18:59 davout after all linux runs most of the interwebz under the hood
19:00 asciilifeform davout: have you seen what the 'current' 'linux' consists of ?
19:00 davout asciilifeform how would that work?
19:01 davout i reckon buttcoin will be an order of magnitude harder to coopt
19:01 asciilifeform davout: how does what work ? do you seriously think that the current exch rate is what it is on acct of salarymen spending their pennies to buy coin ?
19:01 davout i honestly have no idea
19:01 asciilifeform davout: it is possible to get some idea.
19:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-10 20:36:13 asciilifeform: shinohai: musk plays a very predictable and straightforward role in the usg.spectable -- helping to maintain the volatility.
19:03 thestringpuller asciilifeform: haven't read too much up on it, but el salvador seems to be pulling stunt modeled after this with their "bitcoin wallet". will receive currency in it, can pay bills through it, but can you withdraw coin to personally controlled private keys? (spoiler you can't)
19:04 mats as btc matures its harder to credit the exchange rate bogeyman
19:04 asciilifeform davout: possibly you missed, while flying planes, but the fiatolacorps succeeded in 'embrace & extinguish' attack against linux; which is why asciilifeform is having to single-handedly maintain a complete gentoo repo simply to run his biz
19:04 mats volatility doesnt hurt anyone but speculators and margin traders
19:05 thestringpuller very surprised coinbase hasn't nailed the bitcoin exit doors shut permanently - and go the "gold note" route with bitcoin. (robinhood, cashapp, and venmo, all have gone this route)
19:05 asciilifeform mats: explain to me how volatility 'doesn't hurt' say a hypothetical asciilifeform who actually needs (as mp would have had it, if i'd have agreed to take the $10k/mo rack) the coin to cover the bill
19:05 mats sucks for you
19:05 thestringpuller asciilifeform: option contracts?
19:06 asciilifeform sucks for anyone doing anything resembling honest commerce, mats
19:06 asciilifeform or what am i missing
19:06 asciilifeform thestringpuller: with whom?
19:06 asciilifeform 'volatility is a tax'(tm)(r)(pre-braindamage mp)
19:07 thestringpuller asciilifeform: me personally or in general?
19:08 asciilifeform thestringpuller: you has said, 'options contracts'. where are these trustworthy entities with whom one ought to be executing such contracts?
19:08 asciilifeform (don't tell me... 'mpex' !1111)
19:11 thestringpuller asciilifeform: in general, trustworthy person like jurov who is willing to interface with the turds for you at your risk tolerance level - personally i built up local rolodex cash brokers, some willing to underwrite contracts for cash
19:11 asciilifeform don't tell me that you think 'bitcoin finance' actually exists. it does not exist. may have briefly, somewhere, existed, and may exist in the future, but afaik currently there's only two known kinds -- mpex-style, where anarchic but 'we'll take yer money, haha, moron, for trusting' and 'kyc' -- i.e. reich's attempts to
19:11 asciilifeform embrace&extinguish bitcoin; often enuff not even operates w/ actual tx, but with paper surrogates.
19:13 thestringpuller easier to just go local. like placing bet with local bookie whom's family has been running books since the babe ruth era...
19:13 asciilifeform thestringpuller: observe that i did not bank at coinbr. because understood that -- yes, he can 'interface' -- but cannot somehow insure against the bear trap snapping shut, as it was quite obviously, imho certain to at some pt.
19:14 asciilifeform thestringpuller: how does an outsider find a trustworthy 'local' ?
19:14 asciilifeform don't tell me 'local-bitcoins' or i'ma die of laffter
19:15 thestringpuller asciilifeform: word of mouth: parties, bulletin boards, meetups etc.
19:16 asciilifeform thestringpuller: as i understand, in e.g. uy where BingoBoingo, is different, but in usa some yrs back it became more or less customary to stfu about possibly having btc, when in public
19:16 asciilifeform i picture was rather similar w/ gold during reign of fdr.
19:17 asciilifeform i'm not even 100% certain that is from 'political' reason, either -- may simply be that no one wants to part w/ coin anymoar under whatever pretext.
19:17 thestringpuller depends on the state; i imagine new york is probably a lot like running drugs. whereas I imagine SF is probably a lot of mETH heads
19:18 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i can only comment re: where observed personally. there is for all practical purposes 0 detectable 'local bitcoin scene', near as asciilifeform can tell.
19:19 asciilifeform (your mileage may vary, esp. if yer a social buttefly, or if you think that a bitcent going this way and that way is a 'trading scene')
19:19 thestringpuller asciilifeform: iirc (don't want to speak for jurov or violate too much confidence), but he in theory could navigate other turds other than mpex, for instance bitstamp and other EU exchanges fwiw
19:20 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i cannot speak for jurov , but afaik he has never expressed interest in 'running an mpex'.
19:21 asciilifeform theoretically, i suppose, could. but neither him nor anyone in my l1 afaik is interested in such a thing; it is moar or less suicide mission imho (which is why mp in fact stopped, effectively, when 'went private')
19:22 thestringpuller i agree, establishing initial connection in local scene is difficult. but so is learning ffa, or setting up trb, etc to some degree; i view it same way as comic trading/collecting scene which is very localized through networks of locally owned comic book stores
19:23 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i'm unable to refute the hypothetical existence of an underground network of mp-style moneybags trading btc to/from bags of fiatola while puffing on 'havanas'. but i am not part of such a network and do not realistically expect to be, it is 'dark matter' from my pov.
19:24 asciilifeform what i ~am~ aware of the existence of, is an enormous 'astroturf culture' of half-starved wretches engaging in reddit-'commerce' w/ each other and where 1 in 5 is usg provocateur.
19:25 asciilifeform ~that~ is the only 'meatspace bitcoin scene' accessible 'off the street'.
19:25 thestringpuller i mean you don't go to the crack house expecting to meet the kingpin if that's what you're saying...
19:26 asciilifeform you go to the crackhouse if you intend to smoke crack. and i've no such intent.
19:26 asciilifeform (nor interested in the 'civilized' end of the idiocy spectrum, where various 'respectable' biz which purport to 'work w/ btc' but demand my passport . FUCK them, with red hot poker. )
19:27 thestringpuller there is a reason culturally the plug generally doesn't meet anyone "off the street"
19:28 mats this thing where you're only interested in bearer instruments is understandable, but acting like certified instruments are inherently scamtronic is nuts
19:28 asciilifeform mats: iirc you pay tax in usa, and so oughta understand why i regard 'plugged into irs' as synonymous w/ scam.
19:28 mats if you don't trust the issuer, then sucks for you, don't be ridiculous
19:29 thestringpuller mats: kyc based platforms are like instantaneous surveillance tho
19:29 thestringpuller you send any BTC through them you're gonna be tracked for life
19:29 asciilifeform it aint as it it were some kind of secret, that they mandatorily put errything you touched in dossier.
19:30 asciilifeform nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr.
19:30 asciilifeform *pointed
19:31 asciilifeform i am hard pressed to see what aspect of an item like 'coinbase' ~isn't~ scamatronic.
19:31 mats cme does a fuckton of volume in btc futures and nobody's been scammed to date, that doesn't mean they'll never exit scam but their record to date is worth ~something~
19:31 thestringpuller asciilifeform: you would have to talk with the Samourai Devs, not much on them in the logs. or on whirlpool.
19:31 asciilifeform mats: how do i use cme without plugging in passport & bank acct etc ?
19:31 thestringpuller you could in theory "liberate coins" from coinbase but what's the point?
19:31 mats its cash settled, what the fuck do you want them to do?
19:31 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i'm not interested in passport traps.
19:32 thestringpuller still giving them passport
19:32 mats 'bitcoin finance doesn't exist' is absurdism, can't believe you're saying any of this and not trolling
19:33 asciilifeform from my pov it does not exist. because a system where i gotta put in passport and have all tx reported to usg, aint bitcoin.
19:33 asciilifeform it's bitcoin-flavoured. y'know, like the 'chocolate flavoured' pseudochocolate they sell in usa.
19:34 thestringpuller mats: fiat finance using bitcoin as underlying asset exists centrally; however i've only seen "bitcoin finance" function at local 1 on 1 levels any larger and it topples over
19:34 asciilifeform 'bitcoin finance' would be if i could do biz with a pgp pubkey strictly, and with 0 questions about meatspace identities etc. y'know, as mp purported to.
19:35 asciilifeform almost decade ago, asciilifeform predicted that all such 'financiers' would succumb to temptation of scamming. and afaik all did, or fell victim, jurov-style, to upstream operators who did.
19:35 thestringpuller asciilifeform: this purportedly exists in shadows online realms, but i have no experience here so can't opine.
19:35 asciilifeform the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out.
19:36 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043419 That's hilarious. I'd no knowledge it was so bad. There's absolutely no reason to use those, then.
19:36 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:30:34 asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr.
19:36 signpost finance with bitcoin as foundation will require a catastrophic event.
19:36 mats theres plenty of shadow banking, you just dont want to get involved because afraid of your own shadow or whatever
19:36 asciilifeform verisimilitude: why do you think usg hunted down and killed e.g. btc-e ?
19:36 asciilifeform verisimilitude: they left ~one~ Official exchange in usa, thoroughly in reich's pocket, 'coinbase'
19:37 asciilifeform mats: i'ma have to take your word for it; and if you're right, my loss, your gain, etc
19:37 verisimilitude I didn't think, because I'm not paying any attention.
19:37 mats i.e. you can go through the same hoops to move dollars into ar peso
19:37 mats shadow banker tells you to wire to some rando corp in hk, bike courier shows up with money
19:37 asciilifeform mats: when dollars move ( i dun get paid in physical dollars.. ) usg knows in realtime where goes/comes every cent.
19:38 mats so go to the bank branch and ask for cash
19:38 asciilifeform lol!!!
19:38 asciilifeform mats: tried this recently ?
19:38 verisimilitude I saw a fool I know showing me ``his'' dogecoin in ``his'' Robinhood account. I tried to educate him, but he wouldn't listen.
19:38 asciilifeform ( go in and try e.g. 10btc's worth of cash.. )
19:39 mats i had no problems getting near five figs of physical usd when i visited hk
19:39 thestringpuller asciilifeform: if you were to interact with "shadow GPG identity" for doing bitcoin finance, wouldn't you still have to get to know this entity in some way even if names aren't mentioned to establish trust?
19:39 mats idk if this works in us, probably need oc or hawala connects if you don't want to scan an id
19:40 asciilifeform mats: iirc (ianal) in usa mandatory report threshhold is 1-2k$
19:40 mats nah, 3k is the optional limit
19:40 mats mandatory is at 10
19:40 asciilifeform (and there's a hilarious -- from safe distance -- article in the penal code for merely knowing about it and 'structuring to avoid' )
19:40 asciilifeform wb PeterL
19:40 mats the problems youre describing are american i think
19:41 asciilifeform thestringpuller: where are these folx, doing biz via pgp, that i oughta be establishing trust with ?
19:41 thestringpuller mats: i think bitcoin hawala exists; but i'm not in the broker business (just use a personal one)
19:41 asciilifeform afaik , thestringpuller , they're all here. to a man.
19:41 mats not bitcoin's fault you insist on living inside the wire
19:41 asciilifeform mats: where are you current, if it aint a seekrit ?
19:41 asciilifeform *currently
19:41 mats california
19:42 asciilifeform lol!! and from there 'you insist on living in the wire!' ??
19:42 thestringpuller asciilifeform: i imagine the same people probably skimming prepaid credit cards - and sitting on 0 day exploits for profit.
19:43 mats somehow i live in the us and i don't have your problems
19:43 mats talk to more people
19:44 asciilifeform mats: iirc you had slightly different problem
19:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-06 17:36:47 mats: if you haven't heard yet, i was also robbed, and there was an extra 0 in my loss
19:44 PeterL asciilifeform: my experience has been that Coinbase works for small amounts of transfers btc<->usd, if you don't want to interact with them you could use someone else here as an intermediary?
19:44 mats salting the wound are we
19:44 asciilifeform mats: not intending to. simply pointing out that it's a choice of which problem to suffer.
19:44 asciilifeform rather than 'hey, idjit, why are you sitting in usa'
19:45 thestringpuller asciilifeform: i'm curious why you are opposed to meatspace?
19:45 mats since the early days discovering btc, i spent years building nets so i could transact kyc free
19:45 mats its not cheap but it works
19:46 asciilifeform mats: a++; mp bragged about similar.
19:47 signpost perhaps slightly more interesting than this is what infrastructure it'd take to satisfy asciilifeform's definition of btc finance.
19:47 * asciilifeform simply doesn't have the necessary degree of extraversion to work as mp.
19:47 asciilifeform signpost: imho is unsolved problem. recall that even when mpex 'functioned as printed on the box' i scorned it, because ~could~ scam.
19:48 asciilifeform (and specifically because pyramidal, and ~must~ at some pt. wasn't wrong)
19:48 mats market participation requires trusting ~somebody~
19:49 asciilifeform i also suspect that this formulation of the problem -- 'how to safely interface btc with fiatola' -- may be an intrinsically wrong formulation, and intractable as stated;
19:49 asciilifeform imho thing to do is to develop ~actual commerce~ in btc.
19:49 signpost this is my reaction to this thread, need more actual things happening in crypto
19:49 asciilifeform where, in selected contexts, ~don't need to care~ about e.g. usd rate.
19:49 asciilifeform asciilifeform's isp is an example of this.
19:50 asciilifeform (halfway, arguably, as still priced in reference to saecular exch rates. but this largely to avoid 'FG problem' where 'wtf, you want 100,000$ for server? maniac')
19:50 * signpost expects someone yet to generalize a bitbet-shaped system with reputation, and many parties acting as oracles for w/e real-world events.
19:51 asciilifeform signpost: iirc we discussed similar even in '15 (but grr, cannot locate thrd..)
19:51 signpost the ethereum shitcoin stack approximates this badly.
19:51 asciilifeform purports to, aha
19:51 thestringpuller signpost: interesting. would you be wililng to elaborate on how the bitbet-shape would work in your mind?
19:51 verisimilitude The only way I'll ever get Bitcoin is as payment for some service; there's naught wrong with that.
19:51 asciilifeform but picture if there had been such a thing, and was bet re who wins potus election !
19:52 * mats relives glory days of 2016
19:52 signpost thestringpuller: see e.g. "chainlink" for other gropes at the problem, how to connect on-chain smart contracts with real world events
19:52 thestringpuller signpost: ty
19:54 verisimilitude It's simply disconcerting how quickly time passes, isn't it, mats; it doesn't feel as if I've been here for over a year already.
19:55 verisimilitude Remembering 2014 feels like old history.
19:55 * asciilifeform is possibly 'finance pessimist', i.e. came to believe that the sums required to engage in 'high finance' are NEVER to be found in the hands of honest folx, for fundamental reasons.
19:56 verisimilitude It's not pessimism when it's true.
19:56 mats ah yes, financial ethnonationalism
19:58 asciilifeform mats: not even 'ethnic' pov, but simply 'show me someone with $B who isn't part of a scammer clique'
19:59 mats i can imagine all kinds of ways to massage the definition of scam
19:59 asciilifeform no need to massage, we have in our 'museum' the platinum standard to refer to..
20:00 mats 'exploitation' of people without capital, by using their own capital to build a successful biz, and then retroactively 'scammer' because not organised as a worker co-op or whatever
20:00 mats this is bog standard american financial ethnonationalism
20:01 verisimilitude Money itself is evil.
20:01 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043375 <<< bitcoin is a couple of orders of magnitude harder to "extend" imo
20:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:04:39 asciilifeform: davout: possibly you missed, while flying planes, but the fiatolacorps succeeded in 'embrace & extinguish' attack against linux; which is why asciilifeform is having to single-handedly maintain a complete gentoo repo simply to run his biz
20:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: imho -- money is an inanimate object. evil people -- are evil.
20:02 asciilifeform davout: didja miss the segshit 'extension' ?
20:02 asciilifeform go an' try to buy an actual coin nao, from the heathens.
20:02 verisimilitude Inanimate objects or concepts can be evil.
20:02 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043382 <<< you're missing the whole notion of 'hedging' which is really not financial rocket science
20:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:06:10 asciilifeform: or what am i missing
20:03 thestringpuller asciilifeform: does coin that goes into segshit address then comes out of it still count as fungible coin to you? or is coin forever mutilated...?
20:03 asciilifeform davout: hedging worx if you have 1) with what 2) with whom.
20:03 asciilifeform ( and 3) not have usg standing over your shoulder, taking 1/2 of erry coin sold for usg )
20:04 asciilifeform thestringpuller: not 'forever mutilated' , but requires 'washing', which costs time, effort, and tx fee
20:04 mats while the wealth gap is unfortunate and its very sad all sorts of people are hopeless, its entirely predictable with the advance of science, technology, civilization's collision with the internet, and i don't see a problem with that
20:04 asciilifeform mats: the 'science' of bamboozling people with elaborate 'instruments' indeed advanced amazingly.
20:04 mats imho the inequality gap is expanding at about the same rate as the knowledge gap, the median person is more useless than ever
20:05 asciilifeform mats: i dun even disagree.
20:05 mats so what to do about that?
20:05 mats idgaf
20:05 * asciilifeform aint in the biznis of 'what do? about saving the whales!!' etc
20:05 asciilifeform '1st save yerself'
20:06 mats but how do you align this agreement with 'billionaires are scammers, definitionally'
20:07 asciilifeform mats: very simply. recognize that you are prey in an ecosystem with predators. hare does not sit to think how to kill all wolves (maybe does? if somehow he has time on his hands?)
20:07 gregory4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043520 << Keys of This Blood by Malachi Martin had a decent chapter explaining how inanimate things can be evil.
20:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:02:26 verisimilitude: Inanimate objects or concepts can be evil.
20:07 asciilifeform gregory4: i'm familiar with the pov.
20:07 asciilifeform read ted kaczynski even.
20:08 verisimilitude I'll keep the title in mind.
20:08 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043419 <<< buttstamp will send to normal address
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:30:34 asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr.
20:08 mats hares are opportunistic carnivores
20:08 mats like many prey animals
20:08 asciilifeform it's the single most pessimistic pov i know of, gregory4 , cuz if 'money is evil' then we're fucked for eternity, the ~idea~ of money aint going anywhere
20:09 verisimilitude Humans advance society, and those benefiting the most certainly aren't human.
20:09 asciilifeform davout: interesting ( but have you tested recently ? ) if so
20:09 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out
20:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:31:37 asciilifeform: mats: how do i use cme without plugging in passport & bank acct etc ?
20:09 gregory4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043536 << how far does this PoV of yours extend? if elite-controlled inflation (Fed. Reserve) did not exist, would you still think this way?
20:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:07:12 asciilifeform: mats: very simply. recognize that you are prey in an ecosystem with predators. hare does not sit to think how to kill all wolves (maybe does? if somehow he has time on his hands?)
20:09 davout asciilifeform i don't recall exactly when, but as far as i can remember, somewhere last year
20:09 davout sometime*
20:10 verisimilitude Capitalism has as much to do with the modern technology as communism, which is to mean next to nothing.
20:10 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043549 << this is troo in the abstract ! but is also the case that no one has a spare cock.
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:09:18 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 14:57:19 thestringpuller: i remember asciilifeform saying "spending BTC is like sawing off piece of limb" - very much feels this way the longer goes on. would rather spend whatever comes out of the main cash flow nozzle
20:10 gregory4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043540 << Kaczynski was drugged involuntarily as a child, which should be considered a crime against humanity.
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:07:55 asciilifeform: read ted kaczynski even.
20:11 verisimilitude Money alone does nothing. A man with a mind is necessary.
20:11 mats again, why not use a cutout
20:12 gregory4 as such, I feel quite sorry for the man, notwithstanding his later crimes.
20:12 asciilifeform gregory4: imho d00d was a hero.
20:12 mats surely you can trust your best mate from grade school
20:12 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043436 <<< ring me
20:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:35:48 asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out.
20:12 mats what a guy
20:13 asciilifeform davout: thread is rather all over the place, but wait, you are running a futures exch ?
20:14 * asciilifeform brb,teatime
20:14 signpost gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there
20:14 signpost possibly lucky it was not as early as kaczynski
20:14 mats i've gotten a lot of value out of quasi btc finance, like putting up coin for usd loans so i can maintain my long
20:14 davout no, but i've had a decade with countless opportunites to exit scam, which i miserably failed to do, you know me personally, how can you say you'd have no counterparty should you wish to trade?
20:15 mats happy to give over my passport to a registered lender if it means i can defer cgt
20:15 gregory4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043571 << I am sorry to see.
20:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:14:07 signpost: gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there
20:16 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043436 <<< sighs, raises hand.
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:35:48 asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out.
20:16 davout fuck, wrong quote
20:16 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043462
20:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:41:07 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: where are these folx, doing biz via pgp, that i oughta be establishing trust with ?
20:16 mats jurov too
20:16 mats honestly i think you'd get at least 3 takers for nontrivial sums if you just put it in the -otc book
20:17 mats episking is still around, darsie does stuff, tbz idles, joecool, etc...
20:18 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043488 <<< for a meaningful discussion i suppose it would make sense to distinguish cashola and bankola
20:18 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:49:04 asciilifeform: i also suspect that this formulation of the problem -- 'how to safely interface btc with fiatola' -- may be an intrinsically wrong formulation, and intractable as stated;
20:21 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043514 <<< weirdo
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:01:15 verisimilitude: Money itself is evil.
20:23 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043526 <<< why? coins that went through segwit adresses have the exact same properties as normal coins when sitting in normal addresses, what would there be to wash?
20:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:04:10 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: not 'forever mutilated' , but requires 'washing', which costs time, effort, and tx fee
20:24 verisimilitude I won't pretend I'm not strange.
20:24 verisimilitude Who wants to be a normal person, nowadays?
20:25 verisimilitude They're downright disconcerting to observe.
20:33 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043571 <<< nice read
20:33 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:14:07 signpost: gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there
20:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043584 << 'takers' in the literal sense? defo!
20:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:16:59 mats: honestly i think you'd get at least 3 takers for nontrivial sums if you just put it in the -otc book
20:41 asciilifeform the thing is, it aint that asciilifeform 'doesn't trust' e.g. davout . it's that there's more than 1 way to lose errything, counterparty may not be a scammer, but may be at risk for dekulakization because he, in turn, uses 'passport please!' systems, or, alternatively, mpex, etc
20:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043585 << i don't know these people at all !
20:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:17:35 mats: episking is still around, darsie does stuff, tbz idles, joecool, etc...
20:42 verisimilitude What's wrong with not trusting others?
20:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043590 << key is 'went'. they have to ~no longer be in~ an anyone-can-spend to count as genuine btc per asciilifeform's pov
20:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:23:16 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043526 <<< why? coins that went through segwit adresses have the exact same properties as normal coins when sitting in normal addresses, what would there be to wash?
20:42 davout again, you need to trust someone at some point
20:43 asciilifeform verisimilitude: nothing , until you need to buy/sell sumthing
20:43 davout verisimilitude it's neither a realistic expectation, nor a satisfying way to live one's life
20:44 davout asciilifeform yeah of course, as long as they're sitting in a normal address previous history is of zero relevance, i think we're in agreement here
20:45 asciilifeform davout: per trb mechanics -- factual
20:45 * davout is writing about taleb's buttcoin "black paper". guy lost some davout points
20:45 asciilifeform (no one is getting, realistically, a 100+blk reorg)
20:45 verisimilitude Once someone asked me something like how I'd feel if someone besides myself depended on any software of mine that happened to be flawed. I replied it would be funny if someone were damned by completely trusting a stranger and doing no checking beforehand.
20:45 asciilifeform davout: see also
20:47 asciilifeform verisimilitude: asciilifeform ftr believes that the 'power of wot' has limits. and i like to formulate it as 'alchemist problem' : a 100% secure wot will help you to choose e.g. a plumber who does honest work. but it will NOT, no mater how constructed, help you to choose an ~alchemist~ who does honest work to make elixir of immortality and philosopher's stone for you.
20:48 asciilifeform sometimes the very statement of the problem preselects for fraud.
20:48 asciilifeform (and if not direct fraud -- then 'N degrees away', e.g. jurov imho was and remains 100% honest, himself -- but relied on mpex.. )
20:49 asciilifeform if you are asking for something impossible -- you ~will~ be defrauded, if you persist in asking.
20:49 verisimilitude Well, the phrasing I'd used at the time was ``I trusted a stranger to write code I trusted my life to. How could this be happening?''.
20:49 asciilifeform someone ~will~ be found, who defrauds your friend's friend, and your friend will sell you, while himself duped, into the fraud.
20:50 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ever flown in a passenger plane?
20:50 verisimilitude No.
20:50 asciilifeform aite, try not to walk under'em..
20:50 verisimilitude Yes.
20:51 verisimilitude Besides, that's different. Plane software actually has standards.
20:51 asciilifeform verisimilitude: used to.
20:51 asciilifeform today, cpp and indian 'low bidder'.
20:51 verisimilitude Compare that to Suckless.
20:51 asciilifeform missed the boeing scandal, didntcha, verisimilitude .
20:52 verisimilitude No.
20:52 asciilifeform so then
20:52 verisimilitude It's still better than some random dipshit on github.
20:52 asciilifeform possibly still. today. and maybe tomorrow. but i fully expect is approaching .
20:53 asciilifeform you'd be surprised, verisimilitude , at how much 'dipshit on github' and 'adults in critical systems' increasingly converging.
20:53 verisimilitude I wouldn't.
20:54 verisimilitude It's awful how humans have done so much in computing, and now capitalists throw it to Indians to save some pennies.
20:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in late su there was a song (nominally about sovok, but..) 'chained with one chain'. they haven't a choice.
20:56 verisimilitude There are too many ``people'' and too few humans on this planet.
20:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: recurring leitmotif. but what about it.
20:56 verisimilitude For the logs, humans here are those who can actually think, which only mostly follows racial lines.
20:57 asciilifeform upstack, thinking about davout's pov , asciilifeform suspects that the 'cultural divide' b/w e.g. asciilifeform on one end, and davout , mats , on other, is that the latter simply can afford to take serious risks.
20:57 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:43:31 davout: verisimilitude it's neither a realistic expectation, nor a satisfying way to live one's life
20:57 asciilifeform when poor -- cannot.
20:57 mats someday alf has to tell me the story of how he met his SO
20:58 asciilifeform mats: maybe when we go to kako's to drink for the fuhrer's repose
20:58 mats lol
20:58 shinohai [~]D
21:03 davout let's make it a scuba-diving themed get together
21:03 asciilifeform lol!!
21:04 asciilifeform or parachuting.
21:04 asciilifeform 'it's better than from vodka or from colds!'(tm)(r)(v.vysotsky, 'mountain climber')
21:06 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043441 << btw I think one of their guys was arrested in Greece. not sure if they extradited yet.
21:06 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:36:27 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why do you think usg hunted down and killed e.g. btc-e ?
21:07 asciilifeform punkman: it was a non-reich exchange. so, 'had to die'
21:07 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043635 <<< lolwut
21:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:54:36 verisimilitude: It's awful how humans have done so much in computing, and now capitalists throw it to Indians to save some pennies.
21:08 punkman asciilifeform: you know every last small-business-man somehow figures out how to steal from USG or insert-gov-here.
21:09 punkman I don't get this obsession with "fiat is impossibru, uncle sam gonna get me"
21:09 asciilifeform punkman: is very easy (while taking care to remain small) -- until it aint
21:11 asciilifeform punkman: i pay ~50% tax rate. plus, regularly, various penalties when usg decided it somehow wasn't enuff.
21:11 asciilifeform i'ma eat my hdd before i ever buy or sell a btc at a usg.exchange.
21:11 punkman Istanbul is pretty hot place if you wanna do btc-to-cash right now btw
21:12 asciilifeform punkman: what am i to do with the cash? stuff in arse ?
21:12 punkman mentioning for anyone that might be interested
21:12 mats binance is the bigger better handsomer btc e anyway
21:13 asciilifeform punkman: iirc mp was interested, but guest of poseidon nao
21:13 asciilifeform (fella wouldnt shuddup about istanbul)
21:14 mats in fiat news, https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/US10YTIP kek
21:14 asciilifeform mats: can translate plz to peasant, for asciilifeform's enlightenment?
21:14 thestringpuller http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043665 << this muthafucka don't miss
21:14 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 17:13:07 asciilifeform: punkman: iirc mp was interested, but guest of poseidon nao
21:15 punkman also if anyone is interested, 9 btc gets you permanent EU residency and villa in .gr
21:16 asciilifeform punkman: can't resist to ask, where ? basileus himself, signed with his pgp key, on foreignministry.gr ?
21:16 punkman yeah investment visa program
21:16 asciilifeform ah, ro has similar. asciilifeform even got a formal quote when was there.
21:16 punkman can even get some stocks instead of real estate, but I wouldn't recommend
21:16 asciilifeform problem was, they only take dollar wire.
21:18 mats real rates on tbonds briefly sank below -1% again as us economic recovery stutters
21:19 asciilifeform mats: did 'brrr' printer run outta paper, or what happened there
21:19 kakobrekla istanbul is a shithole, asian part sort-of survivable, but still shithole
21:19 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i'd like to buy a ticket to the mythical non-shithole
21:20 kakobrekla asciilifeform you too to much armchair complaining, like... if you are serious and actually put effort into eg greece thing, you are likely to get peoples help
21:20 asciilifeform kakobrekla: if exch rate grows a 0 or 2, would in fact put moar-effort etc.
21:21 kakobrekla btw, re crying about trustless finance above, my comment is "baahahah, sounds like you fellas are looking for ethereum"
21:21 kakobrekla aint nothing trustless in this world
21:21 verisimilitude How's the split chain after the ``hack'', kakobrekla?
21:21 asciilifeform as it is, mostly useless thrd, because problem as-posed not imho solvable; prompted by this howler.
21:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:04:49 mats: volatility doesnt hurt anyone but speculators and margin traders
21:21 kakobrekla one can NEVER be "independend man"
21:22 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i don't disagree. hence this comment.
21:22 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:48:17 asciilifeform: sometimes the very statement of the problem preselects for fraud.
21:22 kakobrekla verisimilitude ?
21:23 mats asciilifeform: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/great-reflation-trade-buckling-across-154901362.html some bloomberg reporters explainer
21:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i dun think kakobrekla is 'pushing' ethertardism, but pointing out that it is a natural fuffle for folx who demand impossibilities to be offered eventually.
21:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:47:56 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: asciilifeform ftr believes that the 'power of wot' has limits. and i like to formulate it as 'alchemist problem' : a 100% secure wot will help you to choose e.g. a plumber who does honest work. but it will NOT, no mater how constructed, help you to choose an ~alchemist~ who does honest work to make elixir of immortality and philosopher's stone for you.
21:23 asciilifeform mats: ty, will read
21:25 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043683 <<< kek
21:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 17:21:02 kakobrekla: btw, re crying about trustless finance above, my comment is "baahahah, sounds like you fellas are looking for ethereum"
21:26 kakobrekla asciilifeform, you always try hard to avoid making money, yet you say you need the "number go up" to unchain yourself... im not here to convice anyone of anything, but,.... two things
21:27 kakobrekla one is, do you want to be right or do you want to make money? second, there is a path dependency to unchaining oneself. its easier if you make the money first. (also insert the philosopher king story)
21:27 asciilifeform kakobrekla: it'd have to go up rather unrealistically (and at the same time not like this , lol) so largely academic.
21:27 dulapbot (alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero.
21:28 asciilifeform kakobrekla: the fact is, i aint interested in pyramids, i am not the kind of person who tends to win in them (aside from by not playing)
21:28 kakobrekla make the money free and then make nsa make fgs as non profit
21:29 kakobrekla not the other way around
21:29 asciilifeform actual commerce -- interested in. hence invested (and massively lost) in the uruguay effort.
21:29 * asciilifeform cannot afford another uruguay
21:29 kakobrekla point is, path dependency
21:31 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i don't practice some oddball religion where one eschews profit. but i also don't do pyramids or play similar games which privilege extroverts.
21:31 * kakobrekla now waits for the "kako is scumbag he all about the money fella"
21:31 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i aint mp, do not 'shoot messenger'
21:32 mats i advise trying venues like cme, which can help you hedge your position
21:32 asciilifeform mats: after taking 40% of stash via irs, lol
21:32 mats or even make money from time to time when contango
21:33 asciilifeform perhaps to the amusement of erryone tunes in, asciilifeform will admit that his biggest, longest-time, and most eager trader was... mp
21:34 asciilifeform he couldn't get enuff of buying usd. and always paid on time..
21:34 punkman asciilifeform: cannot afford another uruguay << that was pizzaro?
21:34 asciilifeform aha
21:34 kakobrekla lemme know when you want to actually move out of usganistan, i cant promise you shit aprat from that i will try to help you out. 250k for greece shouldnt be an impossible number.
21:34 punkman asciilifeform: is your current job remote?
21:34 asciilifeform punkman: 100% of my clients remote.
21:34 mats 40%? you make enough to hit that on your investment portfolio?
21:35 mats trump tax cut built a separate ladder for cgt you know
21:36 asciilifeform kakobrekla: thing is, i'm only interested in escape if also comes with escape from working.
21:36 mats trick to managing that is tax loss harvesting and borrowing against the assets, interest expense can be deductible
21:36 mats investment interest expense
21:36 asciilifeform mats: i know, in rough terms, how 'trumps' do it.
21:36 asciilifeform mats: it dun scale down to shoestring.
21:36 mats https://privatebank.jpmorgan.com/content/dam/jpm-wm-aem/documents/washington-watch-spotlight-home-loan-deductions.pdf
21:37 kakobrekla asciilifeform, one of the things i learned past few years dealing with n+1 jurisdictions is: stepping stones
21:37 punkman if asciilifeform (or anyone else) wants to come for long-ish vacation, I can set up living arrangements, hardware, meatware, bandwidth.
21:37 kakobrekla (the other one would be nerves of steel)
21:38 mats it definitely scales to shoestring, you pay nothing on long term cg up to 20k (if married), then 12% 10-40k
21:38 mats er 12% 20-80k
21:38 asciilifeform mats: 1 btc 'out of nowhere' is already >20k cg, neh
21:39 mats then borrow against it and cut up the sale across two years
21:40 asciilifeform mats: and if the buildings 'under water' ?
21:40 kakobrekla its also possible alf is just not that type of a person to step out of the comfort zone and actually pull the trigger and do it.
21:40 mats then your loan gets called when goes below 50% ltv or w/e
21:40 kakobrekla its a bitch for most people.
21:40 asciilifeform ( and how does one borrow against btc that's still in an addr you control?? )
21:41 mats have a stash in case you get margined or autoliquidated
21:41 kakobrekla basically caught in a local minimum, (or local max if you prefer)
21:41 mats well, doh, gotta hand over collateral to lender
21:41 kakobrekla mats that requires trust or ETH
21:41 kakobrekla bahaha
21:41 asciilifeform mats: what i have is a realistic picture of own abilities. so far erry single bet i've made with btc -- lost.
21:42 mats youre already making a long bet on btc
21:42 asciilifeform one day will lose one more, and that'll be last.
21:42 mats this is more of the same
21:42 asciilifeform mats: i don't see 'hodling' as a bet, i've so little that if sold would make 0 diff. in my life.
21:43 asciilifeform ( yes eveb single-digit ~$mil would make 0 diff, one cannot live off the interest of it )
21:43 asciilifeform *even
21:43 asciilifeform i see btc as a mechanical toy 1st, and as a kind of lottery ticket a distant 2nd.
21:43 kakobrekla step by fucking step
21:44 kakobrekla you can just jump 10 casts in one go
21:44 kakobrekla cant*
21:44 kakobrekla speaking from experiene
21:45 kakobrekla (that was the end of the sentence in case it wasnt obvious)
21:45 kakobrekla anyway imma go, ciao
21:45 asciilifeform laters kakobrekla
21:46 asciilifeform revisiting this briefly -- in btc space, for erry 'jumped successfully' i see 'over 9000' wretches holding mutilated stumps of cock.
21:46 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:09:18 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out
21:49 asciilifeform it aint even the case that i don't like betting. simply, don't like betting on what i perceive as games played with stacked deck. on items where asciilifeform believes has the ability to stack deck in ~own~ favour, via whatever knowledge -- will happily bet.
21:49 davout http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043713 <<< plox to explain
21:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 17:32:50 mats: or even make money from time to time when contango
21:50 * asciilifeform must bbl
21:54 davout asciilifeform if you never get out of your comfort zone, you'll stay in your comfort zone, read some self improvement books or whateber
21:54 davout and i feel this is a nth rehash of the same, iirc you had this same discussion with mp quite a few times
21:57 mats davout: can buy spot btc ATM for ... 34.2k usd, sell mbtz2021 (dec2021) future at 35.2k, capture 'risk free' prem when converges at expiry
21:57 davout right
21:58 davout reason it isn't arbitraged yet seems to be the difficulty of getting usd into usdt then :D
21:59 mats the premium is a lot smaller now, for whatever thats worth
22:01 asciilifeform davout: i got 'out of comfort zone', in-person smuggled machines into uy; and prior to that, haggled in ro w/ mp's nut of a lawyer. all it got me was -10btc and 2 moar things that'll be brought up at my usg hanging one day.
22:03 davout some people have no problem parachute jumping, but feel anxiety when they need to call strangers on the phone
22:03 asciilifeform 'not sufficiently out of comfort zone, asciilifeform ! go to afghan, walk on mine field!'
22:04 asciilifeform davout: i feel 0 anxiety , believe or not. somehow had that circuit burn out when i was small.
22:04 davout i believe
22:05 asciilifeform simply realistic picture of own abilities. i'm the sort of person at whose expense others win, whenever such situation is possible, it occurs.
22:05 davout somehow i can't help feeling that sometimes you're making some things sound impossible because you expect perfection and zero risk
22:05 asciilifeform nothing's impossible for folx who can afford to lose 9000 times.
22:05 asciilifeform (and/or have very flexible def of 'win' )
22:06 davout that's not true
22:06 asciilifeform davout: lemme ask straight, do you still work for dough ?
22:06 asciilifeform ( cuz if yes -- not yet 'won' )
22:06 davout some people have problems speaking to strangers, what do they have to lose though?
22:07 davout nah, i'm rich enough
22:07 asciilifeform a++.
22:07 * asciilifeform must bbl
22:09 verisimilitude Why call it anxiety; is it not simple apathy?
22:11 davout what is apathy if not fear of doing?
22:12 davout asciilifeform doesn't strike me as lazy
22:13 verisimilitude I'm just viewing this through my lens.
22:13 verisimilitude Apathy isn't sloth.
22:14 davout maybe my english is betraying me
22:14 davout meanwhile, http://fr.anco.is/2021/07/lets-do-some-taleb
~ 53 minutes ~
23:07 asciilifeform davout: d00d works for those 'respectable institutions', is part of their periodic 'need to crash btc so we can buy in moar and so it doesn't look like a safe bet to plebes' routine
23:09 asciilifeform ( see also e.g. )
23:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-10 14:54:20 asciilifeform: i suppose there's a little entertainment in 'i sold all of my papercoin!' and 4mo later 'lemme tell you what to think about btc'
23:10 asciilifeform taleb & co know full well that bitcoin doesn't 'require maintenance', and don't actually believe any of the howlers they regularly emit. but willing to lie for money, is how 'being rich' worx in the modern world.
23:13 punkman davout: silly paper, been watching taleb derp about it on twitter
23:14 punkman apparently the saifedean guy got taleb to write foreword for his bitcoin book
23:14 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere saifedean
23:14 dulapbot saifedean last seen in #trilema on 2017-04-02 04:26:33: in any case, these only inform the last couple of chapters of the book. the rest is mostly economic history and austrian economics on sound money and its perks & fiat money and its disasters
23:15 asciilifeform iirc d00d had a crankcase full of rather talebesque diet, etc. crackpotteries
23:15 punkman ah yeah some thing about carnivore-diet
23:17 asciilifeform ( see also re subj )
23:17 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-04-02 asciilifeform: lottery winners have not merely 0 to teach, but 'learning' from them tends to make folx dumber.
23:17 asciilifeform ( and also etc )
23:17 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-12 20:16:13 asciilifeform: there are few things on satan's green earth more noxious than a lottery winner cum judas goat 'teaching success'.
~ 15 minutes ~
23:33 mats lol saifedean has quite the public profile now, MSTR's saylor is a self identified acolyte
23:33 asciilifeform mats: what is/was mstr?
23:35 mats microstrategy llc, has the biggest btc stash among public corps https://bitcointreasuries.net
23:35 asciilifeform a.
23:36 verisimilitude It's an anagram of TMSR.
23:36 mats traded in their cash for btc, memefied the shares overnight
23:36 asciilifeform ( apparently was in log, i simply forgot )
23:36 dulapbot Logged on 2020-10-27 13:51:27 thimbronion: asciilifeform: trinque may have been referring to Microstrategy's 450mm btc buy. This is a publicly traded company, but I don't know if it meets the requirements to be 'official.'
23:36 asciilifeform right
23:37 mats its an interesting leveraged financial play if you have money stuck in equities markets
23:37 mats i.e. tax advantaged acct
23:39 * asciilifeform if somehow finds himself anywhere near the position where method from mats applies -- will not forget to try
23:46 mats FBO others, gbtc is trading at a ~16% discount, might be worth scooping into a roth ira
23:53 asciilifeform mats: lol, the usg-sponsored tontine thing ?
23:57 mats grayscale btc trust
← 2021-07-06 | 2021-07-08 →