#asciilifeform | 2021-07-05

verisimilitude: as described there, indeed aint

00:01

I understand the discussion, but my personal ideas are so detached from the few goals stated for this so far.

00:02

At the same time, this proposal is clearly a bandage until the better system actually stops the bleeding.

00:02

verisimilitude: the only hard spec i set out for this so far (and others nodded to) was 'no thrones' + 'no blank cheques to allcomers'

00:02

Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.

00:02

Logged on 2021-06-18 19:06:40 asciilifeform: Aerthean: even vps theoretically works. remember, there is no expectation of confidentiality or authenticity beyond what is strictly required against ddos/spam.

00:03

as for 'bandage' -- if linespeed constant-time rsa were available, whole thing would be trivial.

00:04

(but that aint happening, i suspect, in my lifetime.)

00:05

As an example of a concern entirely ignored so far, how are messages to be formatted. Will it be whatever UTF-8 garbage gets thrown around, which makes duplicated messages trivial?

00:06

verisimilitude: i can't see any reason to artificially constrain the payload.

00:06

(if you do -- welcome to do so on ~your~ own terminal)

00:06

So yes.

00:06

i don't give a shit if 2 messages ~visually~ duplicates. if you catch your peers sending these, the thing to do is to ask'em to stop, and if they do not, unpeer'em.

00:07

The introduction of Unicode makes it easy to write different messages which appear to be the same.

00:07

this is a problem b/w you and peers.

00:07

not of the protocol.

00:07

A better protocol restricts what each client can do.

00:08

verisimilitude: misbehaving party can write his own client to misbehave how he likes.

00:08

This is a matter of personal opinion, however.

00:08

the answer to these is to not peer w/em.

00:11

I have my dreams, asciilifeform, and one of these is a protocol which can grow to rejecting increasingly more messages with such qualities as improper grammar. This errors from our topic, however.

00:12

verisimilitude: imho the practical 'direction to dream in' there would be to select for yerself peers w/ correct grammar etc. but naturally q is b/w you and odin.

00:12

imho is foolish to leave q of 'who is untermensch' to machines.

00:12

I really prefer anonymous systems, where this can't be done.

00:13

verisimilitude: unless you really meant 'pseudonymous' -- anonymous systems divide between 'spammed to death' and 'no one knows about it yet'

00:13

(atm we're talking into one of the second kind, for instance)

00:13

So I've had to give a good deal of thought to automated systems which make it hard to spam.

00:13

verisimilitude: see the pow thrd. state of art re subj.

00:14

there's basically 2 known solutions ('no one knows about it yet' aint a solution) -- wot/shared keys and pow.

00:14

Proof of work is so unfortunate that it works.

00:15

i suppose there's also a 'maxwell's demon', the devil comes and sorts your packets for you. but this is for adepts, i do not know how to summon devils to sort packets for me.

00:15

verisimilitude: i have nfi how to parse that sentence

00:15

Proof of work is so unfortunate, because it works.

00:16

to paraphrase the ancients, 'a kind word and sharp stick works better than only a kind word'

00:16

if kind word sufficed to make folx behave, would not need pow.

00:18

( and see also e.g. )

00:18

Logged on 2020-05-15 22:24:16 asciilifeform: lru: lemme ask you, do you think the resources that went into making, e.g. hydrogen bomb, were wasted ?

00:19

In the most base sense, yes, but really no.

00:20

I like the idea of an anonymous system with a shared key, but only one fool is needed to break it.

00:20

An approval system is subject to sybil attacks.

00:21

as summarized above, there are exactly 2 known pills against sybils.

00:21

One solution is using the union of ``anonymous moderators'' decisions, but this is also flawed.

00:22

verisimilitude: the only 1 of the 2 which worx without persistent identities, is pow.

00:23

*

asciilifeform not particularly interested in construction of anon-toilets

00:23

Perhaps we're simply unimaginative.

00:23

verisimilitude: or perhaps there's a 2 and a 3 somewhere that add to 6, lol

00:23

They're good for beginners, at the least.

00:24

Oh, RSA was once a fairy tale as well, don't give me that.

00:24

wut

00:24

verisimilitude: if you have a breaththrough algo that aint a variant of '1' or '2', i promise to read.

00:25

verisimilitude: did you use a different nickname in the before times?

00:25

I promise to think about it until I'm dead.

00:25

No.

00:27

I use a different name, on another network.

00:27

as for 'beginnners', the primary objective of an intelligent novice must always be, above all: to stop being a novice.

00:28

I mean there's no barrier to asking a question for fear of mockery.

00:28

Then again, why would those here want that?

00:29

phobias are to be overcome by the sufferer, rather than catered to by entire planet.

00:30

I still prefer the anonymous morass, for some things.

00:30

verisimilitude: 2/4/8chan is that-way, lol

00:31

I help run a different imageboard.

00:32

*

asciilifeform at one time sat on the ru equiv. of n-chan. had enuff for 1 lifetime, not interested in any revisit.

00:33

Well, by now, I outclass all or most using it, but I still like it.

00:33

I wouldn't be here if I truly thought myself superior to everyone here, however.

00:34

*

asciilifeform must bbl

~ 16 minutes ~

00:51

Oh spare me; now I'm hearing the normal people talk about the bitcoin millionaire who drowned (mp), and how the USG was totally responsible because he had dirt on $political_group_I_dislike. A man can't just drown anymore without the all-powerful USG causing it.

~ 32 minutes ~

01:23

verisimilitude: Already had countless messages from people asking same, one from none other than http://wot.deedbot.org/CDC13F3B380239FE82250DA310488A0477C34BCE.html

~ 28 minutes ~

01:51

thestringpuller

verisimilitude: "bitcoin millionaire" lol

02:02

the cat was the big stack

02:14

I remember when kakobrekla got shittu about spening bitbet funds after mp fucked up a tx

02:22

One might find it hard to belive that mp forgot which inputs to use, or that kako would get his yoga pants in a twist, but human nature does it's thing

02:23

shinohai: lol, i guess trumpet blew, the corpses arose from their graves

02:24

verisimilitude: it was derped about in 'mainstream news' briefly, is why

02:24

Logged on 2021-06-29 11:32:46 asciilifeform: in other lulz, mp on front pg of 'rt'

02:24

he got on the fishwraps even here

02:25

disappointingly, none of the 'usg drowned him!' folx seem to take interest in extended variant of the legend where 1st they shot him with an idiocy ray..

02:26

asciilifeform: she never wrote back when I said hanbot surely had access to coins and could be rogering herself with gold dildo while looking at the balance for all I know or care.

02:27

*

asciilifeform is pleased to report that absolutely no one asked him about 'mp's buried treasure' or any such nonsense

02:28

I troll sewers so I guess the rats know where to find me.

02:28

rattus shinohai

02:29

a not invaluable species

02:30

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042651 << ah no, lulzier, recall that bbet was 1 of those 'great inventions' of mp, 'zero-asset corp.'. so it was kako's ~personal~ coin that was conscripted to cover the 'oops'.

02:30

Logged on 2021-07-04 22:14:13 vex: I remember when kakobrekla got shittu about spening bitbet funds after mp fucked up a tx

02:31

i didn't know that

02:31

it's all in the log, if you give a damn

02:31

wasn't a huge amt from memory

02:32

there's clones on various eth chains now. thank goodness your bid didn't win

02:34

not small by modern standards

02:34

(trilema) 2016-03-01 mircea_popescu: the damage in this case is ~17 BTC, which whatever - cdb.

02:34

yeah fuck. I'd be shitty too

02:34

vex: there's all sortsa crapola nao, none of it is in any way similar to 'bbet when it was the 1 game in town' for obv reason

02:34

I get it

02:35

another problem was that if bbet took the damage, wouldn't pay dividend for year+

02:35

I still find it hard to fathom that mp didn't know how to hurry up the tx properly

02:35

punkman: afaik bbet per se held no coin aside from what was req'd to pay out bets

02:35

and the undeniable lulz "chinese miners did it"

02:36

punkman: start of 'day x' thread for thread-completeness.

02:36

(trilema) 2016-03-01 mircea_popescu: sooo... it pains me to say that bitbet was just on the receiving end of a concerted miner withholding attack.

02:37

bbet paid divs?

02:39

*

asciilifeform to this day does not know why 'bitbetized tx', i.e. ones that get sat on for days, ~weeks~, until you try an' send a conflicting one, at which pt original gets insta-mined are a thing !

02:39

Logged on 2020-02-20 20:34:07 asciilifeform: ( empirically -- in my experiments re 'bbetization' -- no less than 2wks! )

02:39

as recently as iirc '18 witnessed w/ own eyes.

02:40

(very easy to witness, simply fire a tx from a default trb install where fee==0)

02:40

of course if you aint a moron, and fire the conflicting tx to ~self~, will defuse the bomb

02:41

but ~who~ and why plants this bomb, afaik remains unknown to this day.

02:42

is anyone mining 0 fees today?

02:49

snsa got dissolved too huh alf?

02:50

you had access to a fuckload of capital

02:54

stayed sensible

03:06

vex: i had access to fuck-all.

03:06

Yes, you's need to spin some shit. you did well

03:07

vex: the 'capital' was ~100% a game mp played w/ self

03:07

not dead is a good start

03:07

eh errybody dies.

03:07

not yet friend

03:11

lemme ask again then. I think I asked long ago. what to do with the capital?

03:11

what who is to do with what??

03:12

ok, you've got 5 mil usd free & clear. what do next?

03:13

find a good place to drown, lol

03:13

no rly i have nfi what. i don't think there is a universal answer to this q.

03:13

o no u didn

03:13

Oh hai vex, I wasn't seeing ur messages until I figured out asciilifeform was talking to someone xD

03:13

so squashed a client bug, thx!

03:14

yeah I was checking if dulap had that facility shino

03:14

no bots yet?

03:15

Well somehow I had weechat set to ignore nicks with < 3 chars en 'em prolly from fleanode days

03:15

vex: no fewer than 2 bots

03:15

$vwap

03:15

busybot

The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 34612.85 USD

03:15

*

asciilifeform not yet moved watchglass over

03:15

help

03:15

!q uptime

03:15

asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 19d 0h 13m

03:15

oh heh already 19d of dulapnet.

03:16

that long?

03:16

time marches

03:16

$uptime

03:16

busybot

The bot has been up for: 5 days 5 hours 12 minutes and 14 seconds

03:17

not bad here either!

03:17

asciilifeform: yers connects as localhost bot?

03:18

of course it does

03:18

imho is how all bots oughta work -- connect to author's own relay on localhost.

03:18

this way never fall down.

03:19

( see orig thrd )

03:19

Logged on 2021-06-18 15:17:23 asciilifeform: (imho erry relay operator oughta plug in a bot, into localhost)

03:20

^ thought I recalled seeing that, haven't yet been back through the irc convo, didn't really think worth time to set up relay until workable system came to town.

03:20

shinohai: i still think it'd be useful to set up relays, even if they have to be regularly rearranged by hand

03:20

it still beats the living shit out of having ONE BOX, lol

03:21

im with shino. even reading thimbros blog. I'm still in the drak via alfs roadmap

03:21

vex: unlike e.g. mp, asciilifeform aint a solipsist, and actually believes in the existence of ~other people~ and that they might have ~ideas~

03:22

so, solicited input re: open problems.

03:22

open indeed

03:23

liar, you shot down my idea to use RFC 2549

03:23

lul

03:23

I'd like the new method to be useful with cheap chinese ham radios

03:24

vex: funnily enuff, in my latest sketch, more or less directly usable w/ shortwave etc

03:24

(i.e. medium-agnostic)

03:25

reading between the lines, I wondered if this was on your radar

03:26

iirc said plenty on the subj of shortwave quite directly, in the old days.

03:27

i've read those passages.

03:29

Even moar recently some interesting radio stuff in logs from that superkuh guy

03:29

who dat?

03:30

http://superkuh.com/

03:30

shinohai: very decent electronics www

03:30

Yeah it's an a== site

03:30

*a++

03:31

shiohai is underpriced

03:32

cunt's got all the twitters

03:32

*

shinohai has actually considered finally implementing a comment system on blog such as he has ....

03:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJmXyC4DpVo

03:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G-BP3qwZ-I

03:42

@shinohai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffN-zb7UPlo

03:46

shinohai, can you see my ddc here on dulap?

03:46

^ these all "unavailable in area" vex

03:46

and nope, no ddc

03:47

do you see my direct messages?

03:47

*

shinohai thinks vex may be one of last ppl alive that *still knows how to use ddc*

03:47

*

vex greg beard

03:48

*grey even

03:48

s/ddc/dcc

03:48

u wot?

03:49

how to wot. the shit changed

04:01

how to respect whn the rules change?

04:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xGviVaF4I

04:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flPCk8Z5XS0

04:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwoaCKfqcxQ

04:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnoz5uBEWOA

04:37

^epic track

04:39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ0yjYUFKAE

04:46

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9rVh7ZG5CY @shinohai

~ 3 hours 10 minutes ~

07:56

By the by, a very important consideration for message reordering is permitting better messages.

07:57

Two responses from a bot, triggered by one message, won't be reordered if they can be sent as one message.

~ 3 hours 11 minutes ~

11:08

"It would seem that at BitChute decentralization is not so much a technical reality as a state of mind; like #AltTech itself, it is a brand, a category, a hip buzzword. I’ve seen this mentality a lot in people who use the word “blockchain”; this is unfortunately not my first time trying to figure out how a decentralized platform works only

11:08

for it to come up fully centralized and with a founder making excuses.

11:10

(from: https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/bitchute-decentralization-claims/ )

11:20

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042576 << I can believe, but also believe "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong"

11:20

Logged on 2021-07-04 19:57:36 asciilifeform: punkman: i'm deeply skeptical that 2 messages i send w/ min. (say 100ms) delay b/w them (e.g. if client broke up a paste) will ever arrive out of order anywhere, even if no special precautions are taken.

11:26

a more importan issue I would raise is, how the fuck is this gonna work without any signing? how can I tell between asciilifeform said "asciilifeform: blah blah" and vex was drunk and said "asciilifeform: I luv cocks"?

11:31

the answer I've seen is "just unpeer vex". and what does it mean to "unpeer vex"? wouldn't all the peers have to "unpeer vex"

11:37

lol punkman

~ 1 hours 44 minutes ~

13:22

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042776 << interesting, because I never looked into BitChute figuring it shitcoinery along lines of LBRY. imho they all eventually turn into "We're just a front end for streaming torrents"

13:22

Logged on 2021-07-05 07:10:58 punkman: (from: https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/bitchute-decentralization-claims/ )

~ 15 minutes ~

13:37

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042444 << think I'll do similar to this once I've reviewed entire log discussion, might help me clarify thoughts on comms discussion.

13:37

Logged on 2021-07-04 10:59:40 thimbronion: http://thimbron.com/2021/07/the-comms-chronicle/

~ 1 hours 4 minutes ~

14:41

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042779 << a++ q. folx will exchange shared key over pgpgram, where, naturally, signed. so a ~direct~ message from a peer is reasonably known to be authentic. indirect (relayed) imho oughta be displayed with a mark denoting this, e.g. '(asciilifeform): kick me' etc.

14:41

Logged on 2021-07-05 07:26:14 punkman: a more importan issue I would raise is, how the fuck is this gonna work without any signing? how can I tell between asciilifeform said "asciilifeform: blah blah" and vex was drunk and said "asciilifeform: I luv cocks"?

14:42

punkman: at the same time, observe that we are able to have a conversation without even any kind of authenticity guarantees at all currently.

14:42

Logged on 2021-06-16 10:23:16 asciilifeform: the authenticity and privacy 'promises' of whatever irc net are an illusion, and what better way to remind people of it than by replacing all auth with a toy lock w/ plastic key.

14:43

when you have an actual need for it, there is pgpgram.

14:45

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042780 << indeed, if you want to go beyond killfiling, and not see ~any~ conv. the fella was part of, would have to no longer be part of a net where others peer with him. this is, yes, a different experience than traditional 'palace' irc. i'm willing to live with it.

↖ ↖

14:45

Logged on 2021-07-05 07:31:58 punkman: the answer I've seen is "just unpeer vex". and what does it mean to "unpeer vex"? wouldn't all the peers have to "unpeer vex"

14:45

Logged on 2021-07-04 23:13:44 shinohai: Oh hai vex, I wasn't seeing ur messages until I figured out asciilifeform was talking to someone xD

14:46

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042774 << hilarious scamola, but difficult to sympathize with the victims, who evidently cannot be arsed to develop even basic literacy (to understand that a www service is ipso facto not p2p)

14:46

Logged on 2021-07-05 07:08:59 punkman: "It would seem that at BitChute decentralization is not so much a technical reality as a state of mind; like #AltTech itself, it is a brand, a category, a hip buzzword. I’ve seen this mentality a lot in people who use the word “blockchain”; this is unfortunately not my first time trying to figure out how a decentralized platform works only

14:48

I could do without the ton of youtube links that never resolve from the fellow, but otherwise meh.

14:48

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042773 << i don't grasp this obsession with an imaginary problem

14:48

Logged on 2021-07-05 03:57:28 verisimilitude: Two responses from a bot, triggered by one message, won't be reordered if they can be sent as one message.

14:48

shinohai: i think punkman was making an example, rather than bite at vex concretely

14:48

example re algo, that is

15:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042786 << probably oughta expand on this, because my article on subj is taking longer than expected to bake. when you store shared keys in config, will store e.g. ' asciilifeform : 0cf9180a764aba863a67b6d72f0918bc131c6772642cb2dce5a34f0a702f9470ddc2bf125c12198b1995c233c34b4afd346c54a2334c350a948a51b6e8b4e6b6 ' and direct msg decrypted

15:00

Logged on 2021-07-05 10:41:59 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042779 << a++ q. folx will exchange shared key over pgpgram, where, naturally, signed. so a ~direct~ message from a peer is reasonably known to be authentic. indirect (relayed) imho oughta be displayed with a mark denoting this, e.g. '(asciilifeform): kick me' etc.

15:00

with said key will display the nick from config.

15:01

... when said msg also starts with ' asciilifeform : ' naturally.

15:02

if it's a relayed msg from someone else, will display as e.g. ' (shinohai): ... ' -- but will be emitted to client if and only if it is not a duplicate of a direct message from same (within time T, adjustable)

15:03

if there's an equivalent authenticable msg (i.e. direct from shinohai , in above example) then ~that~ one will be emitted to client, which is to say the same message but without the parens indicating 'rumour'.

15:04

so, to formalize, an 'authentic' message is one marked with a nick which equals the nick given in the config next to the symm key with which this msg was decryptable.

15:05

a 'rumour' message is any other (i.e. one where the nick is ~not~ equal to the one next to the key with which msg was decryptable.)

15:06

a network where erryone is direct-peer to erryone will result in no 'rumour' messages displayed to clients, with the exception of a case where a direct-msg packet is lost.

15:07

*

asciilifeform must bbl, but invites q's.

15:15

grr, thinking about it, this is NOT The Right Thing. in fact better to have the 'shared keys' be used strictly as MAC, and omit the toy crypto entirely (it gives illusion of cryptoism; and makes relay unnecessarily cpu-intensive)

15:15

Logged on 2021-06-30 17:30:26 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-30#1041916 << my current draft consists of a) for strangers, pow b) for folx who have a shared keystring (not long-term or esp. valuable) S -- simply demonstrate knowledge of S by sending hash(S+message+S), then don't need to pow

15:16

so instead of symm.encryption, you have shared key play the role of 'S' ^ above. result is that you have 'unopposable' authentication between you and peer -- either can craft a message which purports to be ~to~ him ~from~ the other; but strictly within that relationship.

15:17

and this rids you of the need to make the rumour vs. direct distinction entirely -- any message carrying correct MAC is known to you to be authentic, regardless of how relayed.

15:17

Logged on 2021-07-05 11:02:40 asciilifeform: if it's a relayed msg from someone else, will display as e.g. ' (shinohai): ... ' -- but will be emitted to client if and only if it is not a duplicate of a direct message from same (within time T, adjustable)

15:18

*

asciilifeform apologizes to readers for 'live-streaming' the solution of this problem , rather than stating 'wholly baked' in one shot.

15:18

Well getting ideas "out on the napkin" is what baked V, no?

15:19

*

asciilifeform unlike e.g. mp, aint invested in 'role playing' an inerrant god etc

15:19

shinohai: for instance, aha

15:22

( for the innocent: 'MAC' authentication refers to any signature scheme implemented via hashes, used as a symmetric key, i.e. you need knowledge of the same key to sign ~or~ to verify. there are various schemes for doing this. )

15:25

the major open q is what to do with messages relayed by a peer which do not correspond to an entry in one's wot config. there are 2 obvious variants : 1) drop 2) display, with 'parens' (see upstack) or similar marking.

15:26

this requires more thought.

15:27

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042811 << so I MAC msg with my punk-alf shared key. If alf forwards this, how can anyone else verify the original MAC? Wouldn't alf have different alf-vex key?

15:27

Logged on 2021-07-05 11:15:21 asciilifeform: grr, thinking about it, this is NOT The Right Thing. in fact better to have the 'shared keys' be used strictly as MAC, and omit the toy crypto entirely (it gives illusion of cryptoism; and makes relay unnecessarily cpu-intensive)

15:29

MAC or encrypted packet doesn't make any difference, they are equivalent

15:29

punkman: not entirely equivalent: you can relay a MAC'd packet blindly

15:29

(whereas relaying a ciphered one requires unciphering/reciphering)

15:30

well how, don't you need to re-MAC with your own set of keys?

15:30

indeed you would

15:31

punkman, i suspect, is right, is a matter of taste.

15:32

imho either of these variants is given here in enuff detail to implement. unless asciilifeform missed something.

15:32

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042788 << I don't dispute that many of these ideas would work just fine for #asciilifeform. But what if punkman wants to have party with 300 20 year olds somewhere else?

15:32

Logged on 2021-07-05 10:42:44 asciilifeform: punkman: at the same time, observe that we are able to have a conversation without even any kind of authenticity guarantees at all currently.

15:32

there will be a lot of "i luv cocks"

15:33

I think we are on track to reinventing the blockchain :P

15:34

i must disagree. there already is such a thing as a pgpgram, for when you absolutely must know who, in your wot, said 'cocks' etc.

15:34

the way to run a heathen pit with 300 unhousetrained morons is, naturally, as a prison, with a warden. i.e. traditional centralized chat/forum.

15:35

p2p net is for thinking men strictly.

15:37

punkman: imho notion of 'blockchain' for just about any application outside of bitcoin proper, is a pseudo-decentralization scam, there is virtually always a dominator who controls sufficient pow to arbitrarily permit/prohibit payloads.

15:37

as pointed out upstack, the word has really become a reliable leper's bell for the most abject kind of scamola

15:38

*

punkman agrees

15:38

Then you don't have blockchain, you have Ethereum database

15:38

So just download postgres

15:38

shinohai: i've lost count of how many shitcoins there are

15:38

from my pov they're 100% same

15:39

All of 'em *made inside mETH* now, "I heard you like shitcoins so I put a shitcoin inside your shitcoin so you can shitcoin!"

15:39

*

asciilifeform will bbl

15:40

p2p net is for thinking men strictly << so 10 of 20 unpeer vex, his packets keep being relayed, the 10 that unpeered vex, now have to block relayed vex packets, or else their "unpeering" does nothing. If they do, then we have situation like /ignore. You see people having monologues, when they are talking to vex.

15:44

"thinking men would never end up in this situation" is slightly lacking

~ 36 minutes ~

16:20

http://ossasepia.com/2020/03/27/a-review-of-the-bitcoin-category-on-trilemacom/ handy list of trilema bookmarks

~ 15 minutes ~

16:35

punkman: i think i understand fully the situation; it was very similar on usenet, where the only filtration mechanism was the killfile, and one would routinely see replies to killfiled folx

16:35

Logged on 2021-07-05 10:45:13 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042780 << indeed, if you want to go beyond killfiling, and not see ~any~ conv. the fella was part of, would have to no longer be part of a net where others peer with him. this is, yes, a different experience than traditional 'palace' irc. i'm willing to live with it.

16:36

it is simply that i prefer this to the 'palace' life.

16:36

Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.

16:36

who does not prefer -- can very much continue to use trad. irc. 'while supplies last'.

16:41

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-05#1042848 << i gotta bite this : 'the 10 that unpeered vex, now have to block relayed vex packets' is not factual; the 10 have to a) unpeer the people who continue to relay'em b) live with killfile filtration c) there neither is nor ought to be a (c).

16:41

Logged on 2021-07-05 11:40:50 punkman: p2p net is for thinking men strictly << so 10 of 20 unpeer vex, his packets keep being relayed, the 10 that unpeered vex, now have to block relayed vex packets, or else their "unpeering" does nothing. If they do, then we have situation like /ignore. You see people having monologues, when they are talking to vex.

16:41

because (c) requires a hitler.

16:42

this is the fundamental hinge, there.

16:44

'tanstaafl'(tm)(r), errything has a cost. decentralization is in fact quite expensive, it is why, if you think about it, so vanishingly rare.

~ 2 hours 8 minutes ~

18:53

whaack

signpost: not sure if this is old newz but looks like wot.deedbot.org is offline

~ 37 minutes ~

19:31

Poor Hitler has such a bad reputation. People should criticize the communists more.

19:34

So the idea has transitioned from symmetric cryptography to secrets used solely for MAC; that seems easy to implement. I could use my libraries to do that, even.

~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~

20:53

I always liked the style of this item https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroshare

20:54

but the technical aspects of it are as dubious as anything else

21:00

I toyed with that too punkman is unfortunate uses OpenSSL for encryption :/

~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~

22:05

https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/only-use-old-computers << fella would have been prime tmsr candidate

22:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLBBGum0nhQ "Against Bitcoin Maximalism: Exchanges Can Print More "Bitcoin""

22:07

they can print "bitcoin" indeed, but not bitcoin

22:08

that 10+billion USD in Tether is gonna end up in megalulz

~ 25 minutes ~

22:33

ty whaack, will look

22:34

currently gettin drunk with friends/fam on a lake, but will resurrect.

22:34

actually... works for me here

22:35

stale data, or just not loading on your end?

22:35

verisimilitude: I agree that the communists somehow get off far too easily in terms of aggregate-evil-score

22:36

see holodomor and etc

22:36

also looking forward to joining the gossiptron thread soon, but will be a few days yet.

22:36

*

signpost thrilled this is being discussed in earnest again.

22:37

that's enough lubricated candor for now. cheers!

22:43

https://peerlinks.io/protocol.html << perfect of example of "blockchain engineering"

~ 25 minutes ~

23:08

*

shinohai raises glass to signpost [~]D

~ 23 minutes ~

23:32