Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-06-18 | 2021-06-20 →
15:25 signpost morning folks, find an ircd-ratbox config here http://trinque.org/2021/06/19/our-nascent-network
15:25 signpost no guarantees that it's correct, just a place to start
15:27 signpost I noticed that ratbox-services has a challenge/response mechanism for auth, curious if it can be adapted for our needs.
15:32 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039826 << 100% agree, this has always been about my own freedom, regardless of the way that word has been trashed in the english language.
15:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:18:44 asciilifeform: not interested in construction of reichs; rather, the opposite.
15:34 signpost there is no life of the mind under totalitarianism, neither if wearing a pantsuit nor crown.
15:35 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039829 << there were various knobs for managing this in the usual ways which I declined to configure in ratbox, would rather solve properly once with e.g. challenge/response mentioned above
15:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:20:01 asciilifeform: thimbronion: i expect at the very least some token spambot efforts.
15:39 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039836 << zero interest in a commercial IRC network. this thing's a scaffold; the real item's yet ahead, and fully decentralized.
15:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:21:57 PeterL: not that you need to sell the network for use, does not generate money
15:40 signpost consider that every user running his own relay is a shitty p2p net if you squint.
15:40 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039837 << yerp
15:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:22:20 asciilifeform: PeterL: my other notion is that erryone who wants to be taken seriously oughta run a relay & peer w/ others.
15:41 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039848 << as you moderate your own living room, I'd expect. however you want, or not at all.
15:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:26:29 verisimilitude: So if I were to run a node here, I'd be expected to moderate it?
15:42 signpost I haven't looked into it yet, but I expect it'd be possible to relay only certain channels, such that a particular node can have w/e other channels, e.g. signpost's unauth'd guest lobby
15:43 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039876 << 32 totally reasonable, trivial to set this in ./configure step for ratbox
15:43 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:43:02 asciilifeform: 9 is ludicrous; in my current config iirc is 32
15:46 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039888 << specifically, it's a ponzi, like most modern tech businesses.
15:46 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:48:36 verisimilitude: Software is increasingly being written by idiots who don't even aim for proper functioning; it's just a game to them.
15:49 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039948 << >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040076
15:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 17:56:39 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-17#1039741 << i agree that channels seem kind of silly with only a dozen or so users, however i'm not sure how i feel about "no 'channels', just nets"
15:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-19 11:42:42 signpost: I haven't looked into it yet, but I expect it'd be possible to relay only certain channels, such that a particular node can have w/e other channels, e.g. signpost's unauth'd guest lobby
15:51 signpost minimal standard is best standard when coordinating among friendly peers; no need to tell billymg what to do in his house if the parties don't spill into my wine cellar uninvited
15:53 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039960 << the flatness here supposes equals among freely-associating peers, not all-comers.
15:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:44 asciilifeform: i.e. absolutely flat topology, yet w/out any 'democracy' or any '-cracy' at all.
15:55 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039985 << this. if you're down and out, "have friends". I'd welcome folks in my WoT using my relay when they need to (ex: traveling and their own relay becomes inaccessible)
15:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 18:45:54 asciilifeform: the idea, billymg , is to have the subordinate type of connection be an exception, rather than the rule
15:58 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039938 << obviously I meant the present, not the archaeological ecosystem.
15:58 snsabot Logged on 2021-06-18 16:47:29 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'must' is bogus there, there were similar guis in '90s at 100x smaller mass.
15:59 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039939 << my own term for these older, efficient, snappy, raster-based GUIs is "classical WIMP."
15:59 snsabot Logged on 2021-06-18 16:47:55 asciilifeform: hell, in '80s. see also.
16:00 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040024 << agreed, death to this notion that there's a "the work". god is dead, and we have killed him.
16:00 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 19:08:58 asciilifeform: but 'the net' in my scheme no longer is a collectivist entity that has 'desires', if this makes sense.
16:01 gregorynyssa I even have a theory that classical WIMP as deliberately killed by The Powers That Be as part of a larger mind-control agenda.
16:02 gregorynyssa its death was not an accident. asciilifeform's blog-post about Hypercard's death supports this thesis, but the conspiracy runs beyond one corporation's financial interests.
16:03 gregorynyssa the failure of Linux to sustain (or even support, in the first place) classical WIMP following its death on Windows is strong evidence that
16:03 gregorynyssa Linux Foundation and GNU were involved in this mind-control agenda.
16:05 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040036 << sure, it'd be foolish to summarily reject what was said/done in that era.
16:05 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 19:13:56 billymg: asciilifeform: right right. i'm just musing on how it seems much closer to what was talked about before as the desired model -- castles (chans, then) among a republic --and how it's coming about now
16:06 gregorynyssa I believe that GCC killed static linking in the belief that such a move would increase the influence of anti-classical WIMP toolkits such as GTK and Qt.
16:06 signpost time to grab oneself by the balls and start again.
16:08 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040037 << highest priority project should be ownership of one's time.
16:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 19:17:47 Aerthean: Yeah, I've been following along. I keep wishing to have more useful time to contribute, difficult to do more when brain gets tired from work.
16:09 gregorynyssa this is because the exclusion of static linking leads to (or, further strengthens) the framework-centric approach to software-development.
16:10 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040051 << imho this means bvt's other WoT connections, if any, had no meaning.
16:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 19:34:34 asciilifeform: observe how quickly e.g. bvt lost interest in e.g. ffa when mp took off his mask
16:12 signpost heh, hopefully gregorynyssa checks the logs soon and joins us.
16:12 * signpost bbl
16:14 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: I understand that you are a fan of non-WIMP approaches in the vein of Jeff Raskin, but WIMP itself was never fully mastered, owing to the conspiracy. I would rather master WIMP first, before moving onto non-WIMP.
16:18 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040108 << I just read the logs, and will proceed to study trinque's new article.
16:18 snsabot Logged on 2021-06-19 12:12:34 signpost: heh, hopefully gregorynyssa checks the logs soon and joins us.
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
17:41 asciilifeform signpost: a++; finally built 'ratbox' here; will config it and pgpgram prolly tonight/tomorrow
17:41 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040099 << ftr didn't mean 'musing' in the sense of "funny you should mention this thing that was already discussed before" but rather "funny how it took so long"
17:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-19 12:05:26 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040036 << sure, it'd be foolish to summarily reject what was said/done in that era.
17:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 18:40:09 asciilifeform: p2p net. which, despite various posturing, mp wanted like a dog wants beets.
17:41 asciilifeform signpost: i'ma swap it into place instead of the 'unreal' that is currently running, as soon as i smoke test it on another port and see that it'll readmit folx immed. after switching on
17:43 asciilifeform signpost: while on subj, if we're doing single channel, imho would be rather bizarre to continue w/ '#asciilifeform'. let's e.g. #a ('arse'!net) or #pipe or sumthing short for nao (i've looked into 'does protocol even require a channel' but all sorts of clients would behave weirdly w/out one)
17:44 asciilifeform ^ other relay participants invited to comment ^
17:45 asciilifeform billymg: makes sense
17:49 billymg asciilifeform: i'm forever interested in coming up with something that somehow satisfies both of these: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040055 <> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040103
17:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 19:37:46 asciilifeform: i personally would rather -- in my non-commercial hours -- work strictly with the internally motivated.
17:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-19 12:08:31 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040037 << highest priority project should be ownership of one's time.
17:49 asciilifeform billymg: elaborate ?
17:51 billymg asciilifeform: something that you work on out of "internal motivation" but that also pays the bills / allows you to "own your own time"
17:51 billymg the "in my non-commercial hours" seems like a bug
17:51 asciilifeform billymg: 'if wishes were horses, beggars would ride' etc. never had such a thing and dun expect to
17:52 asciilifeform ( if yer doing sumthing where 100% internally motivated -- why would anybody bother to pay you ? )
17:53 billymg asciilifeform: how much you like what you do doesn't factor into it with potential customers though, does it?
17:53 billymg if i suspect you thoroughly enjoy assembling FGs that doesn't mean i still wouldn't want to pay what it's worth to me
17:54 asciilifeform ftr the process of assembling & testing (coupla hrs ea.!) FGs was quite unenjoyable.
17:55 billymg asciilifeform: yeah i guess that's the issue, once the problem is solved the "repeating/maintaining it for customers" part isn't any fun
17:55 asciilifeform billymg: it aint that 'liking what you do' has 0 effect -- but as i understand, it is similar as with whores, very few of whom 'like' in the usual sense, but the troo 'pros' conceal, very effectively, their dislike, like talented actors might
17:56 asciilifeform i suspect that very few dentists enjoy, in the usual sense of the word, drilling teeth.
17:56 asciilifeform they approach it much the same way as asciilifeform approaches commercial work.
17:57 asciilifeform get it over with for patient and for self as quickly and painlessly as possible (but not more so)
17:57 billymg asciilifeform: the whore analogy is accurate. saw posted somewhere how working in silicon valley is basically whoring because not just expected to get work done but expected to show enthusiasm/excitement at Nth rewrite of dickpic app
17:58 asciilifeform billymg: i have never done time in such a shithole and cannot directly comment
17:58 billymg asciilifeform: it resonated with me, managers openly graded individuals on "passion"
17:59 billymg asciilifeform: but what does a dentist do then on the weekend?
17:59 asciilifeform billymg: sounds like (american caricature of) sovok
17:59 billymg probably not more drilling
17:59 asciilifeform billymg: well, mine worx on his harley, for instance.
18:00 asciilifeform funnily enuff he once revealed that the uv-cured epoxy in both of his shops is just about the same
18:00 billymg asciilifeform: heh, interesting
18:00 asciilifeform so sometimes, in fact, more drilling.
18:02 asciilifeform billymg: possibly 1 reason why i've no direct exposure to the 'must show enthusiasm' nonsense is that since '16 i've not accepted any work that'd require me to leave my house
18:02 billymg asciilifeform: i can see it but it seems like a bit of a stretch to compare drilling:harley fixing :: programming for client:programming for self
18:03 billymg asciilifeform: this is the only kind i'm doing these days and it's definitely an improvement
18:04 asciilifeform billymg: for 1 thing, you can stack'em up..
18:05 billymg asciilifeform: isn't the "stack" thing only +ev if "salaried" position? if working by the hour then doesn't matter if 10x3 or 30x1
18:05 asciilifeform billymg: depends, yes.
18:06 asciilifeform errything depends on the concretes.
18:09 * asciilifeform does not and has never done 'sexy, exciting' commercial worx; for many yrs nao maintains old proprietary softwares. (to say more would be 'kiss & tell'.)
18:09 billymg asciilifeform: this is what i would love to find
18:10 asciilifeform the people who do not 'pay' with 'exciting', pay with moneys.
18:10 billymg but i suspect it's not something you "find" but that you cultivate over decade
18:10 asciilifeform and, another valuable thing, ask very few q's off subj. (the clients, is known to me, read my www, and in some cases even the logs, but generally passively)
18:11 asciilifeform billymg: most recent one actually found me.
18:12 asciilifeform pointedly, asciilifeform does not work commercially on anyffin pertaining to bitcoinism, or in fact any 'trendy' or public-facing system fullstop.
18:12 billymg asciilifeform: ah, this also makes sense
18:15 asciilifeform there is nothing factually exciting in commercial softs happening today. but plenty of 'exciting'-flavoured crapola for drawing in disposable 19yos to work for, effectively, minwage.
18:16 asciilifeform skip the 'exciting', insist instead on payment on barrelhead.
18:17 asciilifeform billymg: waitasec i thought for some reason that you were a graphics artist, not programmer..?
18:18 billymg asciilifeform: interface designer by trade, which often included implementing the interfaces, which led to more and more JS as React became "the standard", which eventually led to "full stack" programming
18:18 asciilifeform aa.
18:19 asciilifeform one one hand sounds particularly unpleasant, but presumably at least plentiful work.
18:19 billymg plentiful but always of the "let's get excited" variety
18:19 asciilifeform ah hm.
18:20 asciilifeform what asciilifeform does is sorta on polar opposite end of the spectrum.
18:20 billymg i have a small client now that is happy that i just do what's needed and do it well
18:21 asciilifeform the other 'insight' , while we're on this thrd, is that no one is ever about to pay a worker enuff so that he could stop.
18:21 asciilifeform (this, when stated bluntly, seems elementarily obvious, but some folx still seem to not grasp)
18:21 billymg asciilifeform: that is actually what made my shift from the frontend to the backend more active. seeing that the frontend will always be public facing
18:21 billymg it was also after discovering bitcoin and the logs
18:22 billymg and realizing that any degree of self-sufficiency in the future will require ability to code and configure servers
18:23 asciilifeform BingoBoingo for instance went from (iirc) philosophy degree, to configging machines and all kindsa handy skill.
18:27 billymg i should expand, i'm not even fundamentally against "public facing" roles, and in fact did quite well in them, what i am allergic to is the trannyism that infected all of it in the last 5 or so years
18:28 billymg once i found myself self-policing my language in meetings i knew there was no future in it for me
18:28 asciilifeform billymg: there's a kind of phase transition sometimes called 'snake loses his legs'. where a vestigial/newly-superfluous organ atrophies.
18:28 asciilifeform billymg: in this case, it was the actual software-development, in 'tbtf' shitholes.
18:29 asciilifeform actually permitting the 20sumthings to touch the coad (not even to say, satan forbit, to ~develop new~) is generally -ev.
18:29 asciilifeform so instead they give'em various social games to play.
18:29 asciilifeform *forbid
18:34 billymg asciilifeform: how is the actual software development "newly superfluous"?
18:34 asciilifeform billymg: complexity collapse.
18:35 billymg asciilifeform: i.e. the "back to no indoor plumbing" path we're on?
18:35 asciilifeform aha.
18:35 asciilifeform the absolutely last thing anyone actually needs, is ~more~ software-fecal mass.
18:36 asciilifeform the disposable 19yo, otoh, has automatic animal urge to do one and only 1 thing, add, add, add mass.
18:37 asciilifeform because how else to become something other than disposable, than by 'job seekoority'.
18:38 asciilifeform soo, giving'em something to do, in a competitive format, that doesn't contribute directly to accretion of mass, is -- for the tbtf -- adaptive.
18:40 * asciilifeform not implying that anyone has ~consciously~ adopted this algo. merely that it is adaptive; and appears not to contradict observed givens.
18:42 asciilifeform for the 'gendercommitt' people -- also adaptive; learning to actually program is rather much like work; homo redditus will happily take the pay w/out bothering with the study of the (largely obsolete, see above) profession.
18:42 billymg the problem is those "games" they're given to play interfere with those trying to get real work don
18:42 billymg done*
18:42 asciilifeform ... while not necessarily realizing that he is entering yet another, ancient profession..
18:43 billymg although i guess what you're saying is doesn't matter, there is no more "real work" to get done
18:43 asciilifeform aaha.
18:43 asciilifeform not in the shitholes in question, at any rate
18:43 asciilifeform their entire existence is typically in the role of a theatrical prop for stock scamola.
18:43 billymg right
18:44 billymg i guess i had the opportunity to see this transformation play out in real time. when started at the company was about 150 lean, when left, 1500
18:44 asciilifeform ergo, hollywood-style special effects in fact are sufficient in place of whatever 'real thing'
18:46 asciilifeform billymg: i may have said this before, but imho the thing happening to the tbtf-softs co's is a maggotization of an existing corpse, rather than a devourement by predators
18:47 asciilifeform the trans-xyz-etc folx would've been laffed outta the room even 20y ago. the only reason why not now, is that they aint particularly nuttier or more useless than the 'normal' people in the room on typical day now.
18:47 asciilifeform the nominal 'clowns' and 'audience' in the circus -- no longer reliably distinguishable.
18:49 asciilifeform also don't fugher that old-fashioned homosex is conducive to promotion (they promote one another, for obv. reason) , this was a thing in ye olde nsdap w/ ernst rohm, and in hollywood, and etc
18:49 asciilifeform *fughet
18:50 asciilifeform i.e. there is no 'martian invasion'; dying civilization is decomposing along very familiar, historically, lines.
18:51 billymg asciilifeform: ftr my use of "trannyism" was meant as wide brush label for all of the various "social causes" over actually-doing-things people
18:51 asciilifeform upstack -- there's a fissure, a la late-sovok, happening, where softs (and other) industry separates, silently and unofficially, into 'boutique' and 'essential'.
18:52 asciilifeform in 'boutique' -- just about anyffin with a www.
18:52 billymg asciilifeform: if the clowns being tolerated are a symptom of the complexity collapse, (because "real work" is superfluous anyway), what then triggers the complexity collapse
18:53 asciilifeform in 'essential' -- the items standing b/w current state and transition to 'full rhodesia'. e.g. petro, transport, finance (complicated, but ultimately reich's complex, expensive subst. for Gosplan), nukes, etc.
18:53 asciilifeform billymg: accretion.
18:53 asciilifeform ( see e.g. )
18:57 billymg asciilifeform: sad state of affairs
18:58 * billymg was kinda hoping for an answer to "who is it that should be hung"
18:58 asciilifeform the fulltime golf fuckers of course also consider all of themselves '100% essential', but it aint as if worker bee can requalify to become a ~that~
18:59 verisimilitude This is a depressing conversation.
19:00 asciilifeform wb verisimilitude
19:00 verisimilitude I wonder if things fail soon, or this is just a repeat of the unrest of the 1970s.
19:00 asciilifeform verisimilitude: depends which 'things' -- some already by any standard failed.
19:01 asciilifeform moore's law, for instance. (while shitware 'developers' continue to bloat, bloat, bloat... headed head 1st into concrete wall)
19:03 verisimilitude I don't see why Moore's law should persist indefinitely.
19:04 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'civilized' world's entire economic paradigm stood on presumptions of magical infinitely-growing things. incl. ic densities.
19:05 asciilifeform verisimilitude: literally all of their economic arrangements are predicated on these infinities, and cannot live w/out'em , like auto engine cannot run under water
19:05 verisimilitude Perhaps it will finally give way to using the transistors in a better design.
19:06 asciilifeform verisimilitude: go and try, lol, to fund anything resembling 'better design'.
19:06 verisimilitude I know I can't.
19:07 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it's a fundamentally 'terrorist' item, that, if could be funded, only could be by something other than 'system'.
19:07 verisimilitude Anyway, it's very clear to me ``whom to hang'', billymg.
19:08 asciilifeform it's the hook asciilifeform bit, like mindless fish, to work for mp for yrs.
19:08 asciilifeform thought that he was genuinely interested in this.
19:08 verisimilitude It's the hook I rejected.
19:08 asciilifeform verisimilitude: smart. better imho in fact to die in a ditch.
19:10 verisimilitude I see myself as a leader more than a follower, although I've also noticed it seems to be more comfortable not quite at the top of a hierarchy.
19:10 asciilifeform in fact, it is fundamentally foolish imho to believe that someone who profits from the continued operation of the reich (i.e. not simply 'rich', but w/out working) could genuinely take an interest in its destruction.
19:13 * asciilifeform will bbl.
~ 22 minutes ~
19:35 verisimilitude Part of why most software sucks is they don't learn complexity analysis, and even mock it. However, that pales compared to simply not knowing anything about what they do, piling things on.
← 2021-06-18 | 2021-06-20 →