Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-05-23 | 2021-05-25 →
14:23 trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037428 << this is perhaps the best thing about CL, that all who would change it are dead or retired.
14:23 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:00:20 gregorynyssa: (1) the rules of the language are constantly being updated by the vendor;
14:23 trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037429 << this seems to be at odds with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037438
14:23 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:01:23 gregorynyssa: (2) programs written in the language contain opaque run-time structures.
14:23 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:18:29 gregorynyssa: Tcl has numerous problems, one of which is the lack of a dynamic FFI (allowing the language to swallow DLLs at runtime).
14:24 trinque consider that the rampant use of C extensions in e.g. python, ruby, make for quite opaque run-time structures indeed
14:25 trinque perhaps better OS-level coordination mechanisms are instead called for, rather than sharing needles with other processes
14:27 trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037433 << to my eye uplevel/upvar are kluges less elegant than a proper macro system, which allows more language extension without stack fiddling
14:27 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:12:34 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037410 << the language is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs. it unifies function-definition syntax and configuration-file syntax. it unifies call-by-value and call-by-name through "upvar." it has (limited) support for continuations. it was specifically built to solve last-mile problems (functions requiring intensive computation
14:32 trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037436 << indeed this, but also language can limit or bias what's expressed.
14:32 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:14:10 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037415 << granted, just because one can write obfuscated code doesn't mean that he should.
~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~
16:10 whaack Verisimilitude: Hey your comment from months ago got caught in my spam trap, it has been released and responded to
~ 34 minutes ~
16:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037381 << likely before end of summer.
16:44 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 20:07:13 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, any ETA for phuctor's return ?
16:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037405 << try as i might, never was able to grasp the appeal of tcl/tk. it has imho the flavour of a 'puzzle-lang' take on bash.
16:45 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 21:21:33 gregorynyssa: the cleverness of Tcl did not extend to Tk.
16:48 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037422 << if you discover the exact chronology, plz post! ( thread at the time of the phork ftr, if helps)
16:48 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 00:27:45 whaack: block where high-S becomes unmineable be the start of the fork, which by pete's article would be block # 363,731 ?
16:48 snsabot (trilema) 2015-07-03 cazalla: apparently network forked or some business
16:51 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037425 << 'effective' at solving problems which they, themselves, create. rather like e.g. heroin.
16:51 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 05:57:30 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037408 << so-called "web" languages have been surprisingly effective with regard to the implementation of command-line utilities, this being no accident.
16:51 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 14:53:05 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: upstack -- imho it is worth understanding why well-designed, simple, and functional systems remain obscure, while perl/cpp/microshit 'wins'. if more sane folx understood the basics of the underlying civilizational decay which powers this process, would die of cirrosis less often and overall happier imho
16:53 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037429 << there's only one cure for this.
16:53 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:01:23 gregorynyssa: (2) programs written in the language contain opaque run-time structures.
16:55 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037431 << this means a) NO os interface or ffi in any form whatsoever (a la e.g. peh) or b) drink the spittoon of specifying entire machine. tertium non datur.
16:55 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:03:00 gregorynyssa: the run-time structures underlying the language must be treated as part of the grammar.
16:55 whaack asciilifeform: Will do. To figure out which chain 'won' I figure I have to (1) Figure out what 'voting' policy the BIP squad determined to trigger the new rule enforcement (2) Calculate retroactively which would be the first block that should enforce the rule (i.e. find out the first 1000 blocks where 750 of those blocks broadcasted version 3, or something of this sort), then check to see if any
16:55 whaack signature in block 1001 used a high-S value
16:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037433 << if i wanted to directly slurp the stack, i'd write in asm.
16:56 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:12:34 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037410 << the language is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs. it unifies function-definition syntax and configuration-file syntax. it unifies call-by-value and call-by-name through "upvar." it has (limited) support for continuations. it was specifically built to solve last-mile problems (functions requiring intensive computation
16:56 asciilifeform whaack: didja write a thing that goes by block and shows high-S sigs ?
16:57 whaack asciilifeform: No, I'm interested in doing so, if only to gain a better understanding of how bitcoin sigs work under the hood.
16:57 asciilifeform whaack: a++. looking forward to reading.
16:58 * asciilifeform interested in related q's also, e.g. when did 'anyone-can-spend' outputs begin to appear en masse; how many unspent such are there atm; and various.
16:59 trinque ah indeed, this thing as a chronology of the weakening of the protocol would be outstanding.
17:00 asciilifeform the answers are 'already on everyone's hdd' -- simply needs 'pretty-printing', lol
17:03 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037440 << reminds me of the czech tale where the princess asks about a suitor : 'is he young?' 'nope, he's old' 'is he at least kind?' 'no, he's the meanest old man alive' 'old and mean! ain't he the ideal groom!'
17:03 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-23 06:19:59 gregorynyssa: another is the reliance upon opaque optimizations to allow lists to be efficiently operated upon.
17:03 asciilifeform wtf is supposed to be appealing about tcl..? i still dungetit.
17:04 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037448 << double-edged sword.
17:04 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 10:20:12 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037428 << this is perhaps the best thing about CL, that all who would change it are dead or retired.
17:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037453 << while you're stuck on unix, will have opaque turds in the lang. e.g..
17:06 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 10:21:16 trinque: consider that the rampant use of C extensions in e.g. python, ruby, make for quite opaque run-time structures indeed
17:07 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037455 << stack munging is even worse, imho, than unhygienic macros. it makes for utterly undebuggable proggy, in the general case.
17:07 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 10:24:56 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037433 << to my eye uplevel/upvar are kluges less elegant than a proper macro system, which allows more language extension without stack fiddling
17:11 verisimilitude I've forgotten the name of the website, whaack.
17:11 whaack verisimilitude: ztkfg.com
17:20 verisimilitude Well, I'm glad it didn't just fall into oblivion after all.
17:21 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037450 << FWIW I meant the run-time structures of the interpreter itself. also, Tcl certainly has compile-time FFI, but it lacks dynamic FFI, something which SBCL incidentally is fairly good at.
17:21 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 10:20:43 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037429 << this seems to be at odds with http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-23#1037438
17:22 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037462 << exactly: it tried to unify shell-scripting, configuration-file formats, and an ALGOL-like application-language.
17:22 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 12:42:58 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037405 << try as i might, never was able to grasp the appeal of tcl/tk. it has imho the flavour of a 'puzzle-lang' take on bash.
17:26 trinque gregorynyssa: it's these top-down attempts at integration of "accidental" (in the sense meaning opposite of essential) items which produces more of the same.
17:27 trinque consider the difference in output when proceeding outward along simplest possible solutions
17:28 trinque "because there is make (and implicity 'who am I to change it?') therefore I will write automake"
17:29 trinque *implicitly
17:30 trinque accepting that someone else owns "the world" renders one helpless but to stack kluges.
17:35 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-17#1012465 << following asciilifeform's links, I found this to be quite eye-opening.
17:35 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-17 12:50:25 asciilifeform: quite possibly is the real reason they wrapped up 'nam
17:44 gregorynyssa IIRC correctly, more than a thousand officers died from fragging, yet the notion that the fragging had an effect on policy
17:45 gregorynyssa is something which people would rather not think about
17:49 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: folx whose paycheque, propotion, pension, all depend on not-thinking-about-$subj -- surprise, lol, will show as few symptoms of thinking about $subj as they are able.
17:49 asciilifeform *promotion
~ 34 minutes ~
18:24 trinque I suspect in these cases the officers' hindbrains get the message, thought about or not.
18:30 BingoBoingo asciilifeform I don't have any basis to object
18:31 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: ty. will roll into next ver. then.
18:31 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: lemme know if you'd rather have it point to your own mirror somewhere, instead of mine.
18:33 asciilifeform ( this ftr was the q )
18:33 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 18:31:23 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lemme know if you have any objections to this, but i'm thinking of auto-transforming qntra links to point to my mirror the way i do with btcbase linx.
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
20:07 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026290 << I am interested in hearing your thoughts on a certain subj... do you think this evil "Rockefeller" class
20:07 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 15:04:32 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: at the risk of oversimplification -- one school is that they exist so that rockefeller can buy 15 yachts instead of 1 while you work in either case 25 years of 14hour days and then die.
20:07 gregorynyssa had a hand in the rise of anti-Nerd bullying in the 60s/70s?
20:09 gregorynyssa I mean, through top-down propaganda and/or social engineering.
20:10 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: not sure i understand the subj of the q
20:11 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: I have long been interested in the question of why some children in America are labelled as Nerds and subject to hostility.
20:13 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: 'odd' kid is always and in all times & places subject to pushing, this is how primate hindbrain 'expels defectives'. in '80s various usg busybodies proclaimed it 'problem'. in '90s fed 'victims' various dope, some 'went postal', proclaimed 'evidence there's problem', rinse & repeat, used to present day to justify totalitarian interventions against children in usa.
20:13 gregorynyssa my own research has yielded some answers, but I am interested in hearing whether your "Class Realist" worldview provides any additional answers.
20:14 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: it's a manufactured usg.problem.
20:19 gregorynyssa "odd kid is always subject to pushing" << yes, but the definition of odd has mutated owing to Secularization, and, if one believes eg. Quigley and Shlain, the increase in sensitivity of humans (Americans) to nonverbal communication which occurred during 20th century.
20:21 gregorynyssa "in 90s fed victims various dope" << this was a huge problem IMO, and might be looked upoon by future generations of history as a major bioethics-violation.
20:25 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037525 << any particular reason that they did this, aside from the notion that all bureaucracies inherently create problems?
20:25 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 16:11:21 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it's a manufactured usg.problem.
20:36 gregorynyssa I had to grow up under parents with strong anti-Nerd views, even though my father was himself a PhD.
20:42 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037454 << I found it interesting how the old UNIX versions did not have sockets, something which seems so fundamental in retrospect.
20:42 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 10:22:25 trinque: perhaps better OS-level coordination mechanisms are instead called for, rather than sharing needles with other processes
20:54 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037523 I don't see an inherent issue with totalitarianism in all cases. Unfortunately, the USG is more concerned with harming proper families than, say, homosexuals abusing children, or mothers forcing their sons to act like girls in strip clubs.
20:54 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 16:10:56 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'odd' kid is always and in all times & places subject to pushing, this is how primate hindbrain 'expels defectives'. in '80s various usg busybodies proclaimed it 'problem'. in '90s fed 'victims' various dope, some 'went postal', proclaimed 'evidence there's problem', rinse & repeat, used to present day to justify totalitarian interventions against children in usa.
20:55 verisimilitude Notice, however, that the US isn't even technically totalitarian; no governmental system fixes the issues of a bad population or bad leaders.
20:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: rough 'rule of thumb' -- a regime which purports to tell you what you can and cannot put in yer mouth -- is totalitarian.
20:56 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037530 I've also faced this, ``Stop using big words.'', etc..
20:56 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 16:33:20 gregorynyssa: I had to grow up under parents with strong anti-Nerd views, even though my father was himself a PhD.
20:57 verisimilitude A government must restrict its population in some ways.
20:57 verisimilitude ``You cannot put human flesh in yer mouth.''
20:58 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there's 2 basic ways to enforce a norm -- top-down / bottom-up.
20:58 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037531 Sockets suck.
20:58 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 16:39:21 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037454 << I found it interesting how the old UNIX versions did not have sockets, something which seems so fundamental in retrospect.
20:58 verisimilitude Yes, asciilifeform.
21:00 asciilifeform the totalitarian philosophy (yes) is that 'the natural human bottom-up norms suck, let's force new ones by royal decree and enforce with ubiquitous surveillance, snitch culture, and draconian punishments' approx.
21:01 asciilifeform i disagree w/ this notion. not even because 'natural behaviour is pefect' but simply because 'naturam expellas furca tamen usque recurret'.
21:01 verisimilitude Oh, democracy be so better?
21:02 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'democracy' as experienced in +ad is a totalitarian masquerade mask.
21:03 shinohai i disagree with using '' `` instead of actual quotes and wasting character space.
21:03 asciilifeform waiwat
21:03 shinohai xD
21:03 asciilifeform shinohai: dun tell me yer using variable-width glyphs!
21:03 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037549 << that is GNU convention.
21:03 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:00:18 shinohai: i disagree with using '' `` instead of actual quotes and wasting character space.
21:03 verisimilitude Mine admiration for authoritarianism derives purely from the idea that the better man should lead the weaker men, and not vice-versa.
21:03 asciilifeform verisimilitude: who crowns 'better' ? martians?
21:04 shinohai gregorynyssa: i was trolling verisimilitude
21:04 asciilifeform lolk
21:04 verisimilitude Ideally, some non-human, yes.
21:04 verisimilitude In practicality, we're ruled by well-protected genetic defects.
21:05 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037556 << Curtis Yarvin is actually trying to implement this.
21:05 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:01:03 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: who crowns 'better' ? martians?
21:05 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: for some value of 'trying' and 'implement' , lol
21:05 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: btw he stole the plot from jp 'last exile' in that piece.
21:05 asciilifeform (all but the ending, which i suspect he did not like..)
21:06 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: so Last Exile has an earth which is ruled by a space-colony?
21:07 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: almost exactly as pictured in his piece, aha
21:07 verisimilitude Read this, gregorynyssa.
21:07 asciilifeform 'for the earthlings' own good' etc
21:07 verisimilitude For working on Urbit so long, it's surprisingly unoriginal.
21:08 asciilifeform fella is neither first nor, betcha, last, to 'wouldn't it be a++ if humans were captured and kept as pets by benevolent martians' wank.
21:08 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037567 << I thought he came up with something original, but looks like I simply lack Anime exdpertise.
21:08 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:04:09 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: almost exactly as pictured in his piece, aha
21:08 asciilifeform verisimilitude: because author is fundamentally unoriginal mind.
21:08 gregorynyssa * expertise.
21:08 gregorynyssa I need to go watch this.
21:08 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: there's 0 originality in anything yarvin has published to date. 0.
21:08 asciilifeform all cheap knockoff of , generally, older cheap knockoffs.
21:08 verisimilitude Let's not pretend most humans can handle freedom, asciilifeform.
21:09 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what's that to do with it ?
21:09 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037546 << I still need to read more about the older Celtic and Icelandic civilizations which supposedly had strong self-rule.
21:09 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 16:58:56 asciilifeform: i disagree w/ this notion. not even because 'natural behaviour is pefect' but simply because 'naturam expellas furca tamen usque recurret'.
21:09 verisimilitude I refer to the Martians.
21:10 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037568 << that paper by Backus is one of my favorites.
21:10 verisimilitude Aliens swooping in and killing every politician on Earth would only benefit it.
21:10 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:04:16 verisimilitude: Read this, gregorynyssa.
21:11 asciilifeform btw if we're doing fiction, re humans and 'benevolent' martians, '3 body problem'.
21:11 verisimilitude I meant my review, in particular.
21:11 verisimilitude The paper is nice, yes.
21:11 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: re self-rule -- j.c. scott, 'the art of not being governed'. mandatory reading on subj.
21:12 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: I haven't read it yet. will do so in the near future.
21:13 asciilifeform a more compact statement of the key idea, for impatient folx, is in orwell's 'you and the atomic bomb'.
21:17 gregorynyssa https://orwell.ru/library/articles/ABomb/english/e_abomb << I knew about the consequences of weapon-technology from Quigley. I had not realized that Orwell already explored the same subject.
21:18 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: i picked up quigley and was not impressed. much dead forest, very little said.
21:27 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: the man was not a concise writer, but some segments were impressive. in particular, I find chapters 74 and 75 of Tragedy and Hope to be very important to any modern cultural or sociological discussion.
21:28 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: fwiw i did not make it to anywhere near 74
21:29 asciilifeform (and i suspect that whatever it is, if you looked closely would find where he lifted it..)
21:31 verisimilitude That was a nice read, asciilifeform.
21:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: aint it nice when can read a coupla kB and go from 'i have nfi why $phenomenon goes in $direction' to 'make sense like f = m*a'
21:33 verisimilitude I felt the same way about GEB.
21:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i didn't. it was a++ entertaining but learned 0 new.
21:34 asciilifeform maybe is different if you get hold of it as a child..
21:34 verisimilitude No.
21:34 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037594 I felt the same way about GEB.
21:34 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:15:36 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i picked up quigley and was not impressed. much dead forest, very little said.
21:34 asciilifeform aaa
21:34 asciilifeform ok
21:35 * asciilifeform assumes by default that any message which doesn't reference a line, is re the last .
21:35 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037597 This is the only value it had.
21:35 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:26:12 asciilifeform: (and i suspect that whatever it is, if you looked closely would find where he lifted it..)
21:35 verisimilitude I'm a slower typist, with my chording keyboard; the race condition hit me.
21:36 asciilifeform verisimilitude: see also.
21:36 asciilifeform ^ summary of where the quigleys, yarvins, etc. come from.
21:38 verisimilitude But yes, brevity is the soul of wit and all of that.
21:39 asciilifeform mno, brevity or lack thereof, as such, has nuffin to do with it.
21:40 gregorynyssa https://pastebin.com/raw/dkv5m35V << this is from chapter 75 of Tragedy and Hope.
21:40 asciilifeform simply, some people simply collect crapola and stack it up. much smaller number is able to synthesise, i.e. form new idea.
21:41 asciilifeform the 'stackers' do the bulk of the publishing in a dying culture. they always try to cut off their intellectual betters (folx able to synthesise) from whatever 'official' channels. when cultural death -- this succeeds.
21:42 asciilifeform it's rather like how your stomach always 'tries' to digest itself, simply as a side effect of what it does. in a corpse -- succeeds.
21:43 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: 'In the days of Horatio Alger, the marks of youthful middle-class aspiration were such obvious symbols as well-polished shoes, a necktie and suit coat, a clean-shaved face and well-cut hair, and punctuality.
21:43 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037599 << that is why I try to read old books wherever possible, and for newer books eg. those regarding computing, I make every effort to get the first edition.
21:43 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:30:20 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aint it nice when can read a coupla kB and go from 'i have nfi why $phenomenon goes in $direction' to 'make sense like f = m*a'
21:43 asciilifeform '
21:43 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: why am i reading mythology presented as factual argument ?
21:43 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: and what didya get outta reading this ?
21:44 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037624 << I don't think it is mythology. observe how this transition happened within the black American community at a later date than within the white American community. look at pictures of young black men in MLK's day.
21:44 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:40:56 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: why am i reading mythology presented as factual argument ?
21:45 verisimilitude I've read plenty of good, newer books; judge each book individually.
21:46 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037628 << any recommendations?
21:46 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:42:17 verisimilitude: I've read plenty of good, newer books; judge each book individually.
21:46 gregorynyssa American Nations (2011) by Colin Woodard was surprisingly good.
21:47 verisimilitude I've twenty-nine reviews so far, most of them also reccomendations, gregorynyssa.
21:47 gregorynyssa but on the whole, newer books have stopped making sense to me.
21:48 verisimilitude I misspelled ``recommendations'' I see.
21:48 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: every once in a while i pick up one of these 21st c. anglo-wonders and read until the 1st howler
21:48 asciilifeform (there is always a howler. at which pt i throw an exception)
21:49 verisimilitude Define this term.
21:49 asciilifeform verisimilitude: comes in several varieties. i can catalogue if you like
21:49 verisimilitude Sure.
21:49 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: a large part of the problem is that modern authors themselves are not well-read people, unlike in the past.
21:51 gregorynyssa another problem is that a small number of incorrect models (such as: white people = Individualist; yellows = Collectivist) have come to dominate all socio-cultural discourse.
21:51 asciilifeform ^
21:51 asciilifeform verisimilitude: one type is when author makes a schoolboy gaffe (simply unfactual statement), and carries merrily along building arguments on top
21:51 asciilifeform another is when mythology presented as fact (see e.g. upstack quote)
21:52 verisimilitude It sickens me that so-called professional journalists write English worse than anything of mine, gregorynyssa.
21:53 verisimilitude Why call these ``howlers''; are they laughter?
21:53 asciilifeform another is when inconvenient facts 'unhappen' (to asciilifeform most often stands out to naked eye when entire ru world ignored in anglo narrative of development of physical inventions, mathematics, etc. but equally so in e.g. yarvin's idiotic treatment of the entente's intervention in '18 )
21:54 asciilifeform another , unfortunately increasingly met with variety of 'howler' is when author betrays that he simply is not friends with his native language, such as it is (normally malapropisms, and notice that they made it past editors etc)
21:54 verisimilitude I despise when journalists, typically the women, see fit to add ``cutesy'' tangents to their stories.
21:56 verisimilitude An unpleasant aspect of being surrounded by idiots is the dreadful feeling one isn't necessarily smart, merely smarter.
21:57 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037645 << there was a time when the average American had better proficiency in English than the average British (since the aptitude of the latter was concentrated in its aristocracy)
21:57 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:49:35 verisimilitude: It sickens me that so-called professional journalists write English worse than anything of mine, gregorynyssa.
21:57 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'm deliberately not even touching on 'smart'
21:57 asciilifeform simply basic literacy.
21:57 asciilifeform it is no longer the norm for folx w/ access to dead-tree publishing.
21:57 asciilifeform in english.
21:57 verisimilitude I blame integration, in-part.
21:59 gregorynyssa the American educational establishment abdicated its responsbility by embracing so-called Multiculturalism. in doing so, they also betrayed the principle of "tabula rasa"
22:02 gregorynyssa right-leaning writers have incorrectly regarded Multiculturalism as being allied with tabula rasa.
22:03 gregorynyssa in reality, under a strict "tabula rasa" worldview, culture comes from the school.
22:03 verisimilitude The more general issue is inhibiting the strong for the weak.
22:03 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: the flies on the walls of the school, by that token, oughta be 100% as cultured as the bipedal pupils, neh
22:04 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037662 << if they had sentience, sure.
22:04 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 18:00:56 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the flies on the walls of the school, by that token, oughta be 100% as cultured as the bipedal pupils, neh
22:04 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: the notion that 'sentience' is a binary, is a religious belief.
22:05 asciilifeform .. and one for which not only no evidence exists -- but plenty to the contrary.
22:05 asciilifeform since we touched on yarvin -- in his terminology : 'HNU'.
22:06 verisimilitude Expand that.
22:06 asciilifeform 'the idea that humans are neurologically uniform like golden retrievers' iirc is how he stated it.
22:07 verisimilitude It doesn't strictly matter what sentience is. There are humans, and everything else.
22:07 asciilifeform verisimilitude: herrnstein and murray expanded more than anyone could want.
22:08 asciilifeform verisimilitude: btw i've a problem with 'it doesn't strictly matter what $concept is' followed by nontrivial-assertion-about-$concept
22:09 asciilifeform this oughta throw an eggog in yer head before it comes out
22:09 verisimilitude I expected this response.
22:11 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037665 << yes it is, and I have remained an inherent, which accounts for some of the differences in the way that I see things
22:11 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 18:01:59 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the notion that 'sentience' is a binary, is a religious belief.
22:11 verisimilitude Of course, ``I knew it was dumb and wondered if anyone would call me out on it.'' is no excuse.
22:11 gregorynyssa * I have remained an adherent.
22:12 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: it'sa pretty 'expensive' religion (vs, say, 1 which simply posits that cthulhu sleeps beneath the seas, or similar non-obligating statement)
22:14 asciilifeform ( the 'cost' of a religion, in this model, is roughly proportional to 'how much of the output of His Lying Eyes (tm)(r)(c) is the adherent expected to ignore on a typical day' )
22:16 verisimilitude I don't see the issue.
22:17 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'ma guess you didn't attend an american 'multiculturated' school; or know anyone who has, or has taught at one
22:17 verisimilitude I don't find humans neurologically uniform, and have no issue dehumanizing others by simple observation.
22:17 asciilifeform a
22:18 asciilifeform verisimilitude: was addressed to gregorynyssa if wasn't clear
22:18 verisimilitude I understood.
22:18 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037680 << the existence of souls and the more general question of whether to trust one's senses goes back to Plato versus Aristotle
22:18 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 18:11:14 asciilifeform: ( the 'cost' of a religion, in this model, is roughly proportional to 'how much of the output of His Lying Eyes (tm)(r)(c) is the adherent expected to ignore on a typical day' )
22:19 asciilifeform funnily enuff, even christianity nowhere explicitly specifies that erryone gets the same size soul.
22:19 verisimilitude I've a delightful quote of mine for this occasion.
22:19 verisimilitude I'm perfectly fine with that idea humans hold souls, so long as it be acknowledged others lack them.
22:20 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037682 << I don't think Multiculturalism upholds body/soul distinction. that is a widespread misconception.
22:20 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 18:14:56 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'ma guess you didn't attend an american 'multiculturated' school; or know anyone who has, or has taught at one
22:23 gregorynyssa there are numerous examples of Multiculturalist teachings violating body/soul distinction. besides, Multiculturalism was designed/promulgated by Hippies who were partial to psychedelics and "Eastern religions," which specifically try to tear down that division.
22:27 gregorynyssa the central driving force of Multiculturalism is, in reality, Enclavism (the belief that ethnic enclaves are quasi-sovereign; the desire to strengthen and expand ethnic enclaves, neighborhoods, churches, associations) and its resultant "vote bank" mechanics.
22:28 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: for some $ethnic, for others nope
22:30 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: agreed. although, if your ethnicity is considered white, but has history of victimhood like Polish, you receive some leeway.
22:30 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: where ?
22:30 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: the establishment of "white students clubs" are not allowed at university, but I have seen Polish and Ukrainian ethnic clubs.
22:31 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: the latter outgrowth of usg support for antisovietism in any form
22:31 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: fair point.
22:36 gregorynyssa Enclavism has done a great deal of damage to the country. it has also ruined the lives of the more intelligent and well-read children within those enclaves who do not want to be bound by their racial mechanics.
22:37 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: observe that only dysfunctional enclaves are Officially supported.
22:39 verisimilitude I'm not going to weep for those unlike me.
22:39 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037703 << yep. personally, I attribute that to the unrestrained mindset of Egalitarianism, rather than to more nefarious motives. maybe you don't agree.
22:39 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 18:34:45 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: observe that only dysfunctional enclaves are Officially supported.
22:40 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: the fundamental rot in question is discussed in the old logs.
22:41 gregorynyssa do you have a TLDR of what star-topology is?
22:41 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: familiar with inca empire? and phrase 'palace economy' ?
22:42 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-24#1037709 << nope, but I know the palace-economy from Minoan civilization. is that similar?
22:42 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 18:38:57 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: familiar with inca empire? and phrase 'palace economy' ?
22:42 asciilifeform very similar.
22:43 asciilifeform 'if you want food, and try to buy it from a farmer, the penalty is death by jaguars. you gotta go to the palace and if you're a good boy, the food dispensary will dispense you your allotted portion of gruel'
22:43 asciilifeform 'if you grow $food and deliver it to somewhere other than palace, penalty -- death' etc
22:45 gregorynyssa that is amazing. I never thought of analyzing modern society in terms of this Minoan concept
22:47 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: neither the minoans nor the incas 'had patent' on this glue trap. it's a consequence of the dominant tech paradigm of the time, simply.
22:47 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-24 17:10:43 asciilifeform: a more compact statement of the key idea, for impatient folx, is in orwell's 'you and the atomic bomb'.
22:48 verisimilitude Having read that bomb piece, I finally finished this, which is relevant.
22:49 asciilifeform the key concept that seems to be lost on ~everyone is that the glue trap is not escapable by whining. even philosophically-erudite whining.
22:49 verisimilitude Oh, that link is likely invalid.
22:49 asciilifeform it is only escapable by escaping the technological gluetrap.
22:50 gregorynyssa the star-topology concept perfectly fits my own critique of Multiculturalism.
22:50 asciilifeform verisimilitude: literally ~all of orwell is relevant.
22:50 asciilifeform afaik 100% on www at this pt though.
22:50 gregorynyssa basically, the upper-class, Ivy League educated white Americans serve as the "go betweens" for all other races/neighborhoods
22:51 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: correct, whole 'multiculti' nonsense was from beginning a cheap ploy by elite.
22:55 verisimilitude Having read that bomb piece, I finally finished this, which is relevant.
22:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: loox liek same link ? (i assume was to 'politics and the english language' ? )
22:56 verisimilitude This should be correct, and yes.
22:56 asciilifeform aa worx
22:57 * asciilifeform has his entire collected publications & correspondence, in deadtree.
22:57 verisimilitude I disagree with Orwell in some respects.
22:58 asciilifeform would be a rather curious thing if you didn't
22:59 verisimilitude In particular, I disagree with the antepenultimate paragraph, regarding such things as archaism.
23:00 verisimilitude ``It has nothing to do with correct grammar and syntax, which are of no importance so long as one makes one's meaning clear''
23:00 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i suspect you'd like (at least in principle) the french approach to standardization.
23:00 verisimilitude Yes.
23:02 * asciilifeform must bbl.
23:02 verisimilitude Part of the reason my writing is unique and bereft of common phrases is because I constrain it beyond what a reasonable man would.
23:03 verisimilitude It's more fun to vivisect an idiom, than to use it.
23:03 verisimilitude I also play with language in most of my writing, which is so uncommon nowadays.
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