Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-05-22 | 2021-05-24 →
00:10 Apocalyptic asciilifeform, any ETA for phuctor's return ?
~ 18 minutes ~
00:28 gregorynyssa verisimilitude: is that your own website? you are also Russian American like asciilifeform?
00:30 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037381 << I am quite interested in this as well. groundbreaking and also cinematic if I might say.
00:30 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 20:07:13 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, any ETA for phuctor's return ?
00:30 gregorynyssa "we will find out who diddled the keys and why"
00:32 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037378 << APl is beautiful but it is arguably not a general-purpose language
00:32 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 19:00:58 verisimilitude: I want to draw a little comic depicting how languages travel; the C language ignores traffic lights, as an example; APL is the only one not driving, but instead riding a train.
00:33 gregorynyssa I say arguably because if you have studied it deeply enough, you can make it behave more like a general-purpose language, but few people ever reach that stage
00:40 gregorynyssa if anyone has any recommended books or papers concerning APL, please let me know. I still intend to learn more of the language down the road.
00:40 gregorynyssa I am not as good as I would like to be.
00:42 verisimilitude Is which website mine?
00:42 verisimilitude APL may not be general-purpose, but then few languages actually are.
00:43 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037391 << mattmik.com
00:43 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 20:39:23 verisimilitude: Is which website mine?
00:43 verisimilitude APL in particular isn't good for linked structures.
00:43 verisimilitude No.
00:43 verisimilitude http://verisimilitudes.net
00:43 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037397 << I knew about that one.
00:43 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 20:40:50 verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net
00:54 verisimilitude I find general-purpose usually means equally bad at everything.
00:57 gregorynyssa the term general-purpose in my experience usually means two things: (1) strong support for I/O; (2) strong support for string-processing.\
00:57 gregorynyssa Tcl took #2 to the extreme; not without reason IMO.
00:58 verisimilitude I find that absurd.
~ 25 minutes ~
01:24 gregorynyssa Tk is pretty bad, I will admit.
01:24 gregorynyssa the cleverness of Tcl did not extend to Tk.
01:32 verisimilitude I just don't see I/O as related in any way to this.
01:32 verisimilitude It could be argued most I/O today is just due to poor abstractions.
01:33 trinque sounds instead like the requirements for webshitlangs, meaning no offense to gregorynyssa
01:34 * trinque is up to eyeballs in such languages himself most days
01:36 trinque gregorynyssa: what do you find clever in tcl?
01:36 verisimilitude I'd claim I'd rather kill myself than use such languages, but the truth is I'd rather kill someone else.
01:36 trinque verisimilitude: you fixate too much on your feelings; no one cares
01:42 verisimilitude It's a joke.
01:43 verisimilitude I suppose I should joke less here.
01:47 trinque watch, I'll do the low-effort thing too. holy shit gregorynyssa, uplevel and upvar mean I can't understand *any* procedure without reading the entire call-stack.
01:48 trinque now I suppose I should proceed to a non sequitur about some other language I Like (TM)
01:54 verisimilitude I don't consider my jokes low-effort, although suppose some are.
01:54 verisimilitude Anyway, I appreciate the criticism.
01:55 trinque back on subj, "general purpose lang" is indeed often a fig leaf for "had no particular design principles, thus accreted popular hacks"
~ 2 hours 34 minutes ~
04:30 whaack asciilifeform: Okay, for clarification, you say the non-low-S-enforcing chain, to be concrete, was out POW'd and then in the next line say "after this...at a certain pt (when?) high-S became unmineable" ---- If the NON-low-S-enforcing chain was OUT-pow'd, (by OUT-pow'd I understand defeated, as in out-run) then wouldn't the first
04:30 whaack block where high-S becomes unmineable be the start of the fork, which by pete's article would be block # 363,731 ?
04:30 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 18:45:28 asciilifeform: whaack: the non-low-S-enforcing chain, to be concrete, was out-POW'd.
~ 5 hours 27 minutes ~
09:58 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037407 << this sounds like a very Haskellian sentiment.
09:58 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 21:29:56 verisimilitude: It could be argued most I/O today is just due to poor abstractions.
10:00 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037408 << so-called "web" languages have been surprisingly effective with regard to the implementation of command-line utilities, this being no accident.
10:00 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 21:30:40 trinque: sounds instead like the requirements for webshitlangs, meaning no offense to gregorynyssa
10:02 gregorynyssa this is not to say that I am fully or even broadly satisfied with "web" languages or with Tcl, as I have continued to harbor two main objections which happened to be the same two mentioned by asciilifeform in his introduction to FFA:
10:03 gregorynyssa (1) the rules of the language are constantly being updated by the vendor;
10:04 gregorynyssa (2) programs written in the language contain opaque run-time structures.
10:05 gregorynyssa IMO not only is it imperative that the grammar must be formally specified and then frozen as in the case of Ada, but also,
10:05 gregorynyssa the run-time structures underlying the language must be treated as part of the grammar.
10:07 gregorynyssa over time I have learned the difficult lesson that having an arbitary dividing line between specification and implementation is scarcely better than having no specification.
10:15 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037410 << the language is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs. it unifies function-definition syntax and configuration-file syntax. it unifies call-by-value and call-by-name through "upvar." it has (limited) support for continuations. it was specifically built to solve last-mile problems (functions requiring intensive computation
10:15 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 21:33:24 trinque: gregorynyssa: what do you find clever in tcl?
10:15 gregorynyssa would be written in C and linked to the interpreter).
10:16 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037415 << granted, just because one can write obfuscated code doesn't mean that he should.
10:17 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 21:44:56 trinque: watch, I'll do the low-effort thing too. holy shit gregorynyssa, uplevel and upvar mean I can't understand *any* procedure without reading the entire call-stack.
10:21 gregorynyssa Tcl has numerous problems, one of which is the lack of a dynamic FFI (allowing the language to swallow DLLs at runtime).
10:21 gregorynyssa another is the lack of support for UDP.
10:22 gregorynyssa another is the reliance upon opaque optimizations to allow lists to be efficiently operated upon.
10:23 gregorynyssa inconsistently named standard-library functions, a problem shared with PHP.
10:27 gregorynyssa the built-in "dictionary" type which was later added to the language to supplement "arrays" is ugly and unorthogonal.
10:28 gregorynyssa the organization of namespaces and modules was a mess.
~ 56 minutes ~
11:24 feedbot http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/of-coffee-and-code/ << Fixpoint -- Of coffee and code
~ 3 hours 16 minutes ~
14:41 Apocalyptic http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037385 << not convinced we will find out exactly who did it and why, but I'm always up for some mathematical experiments
14:41 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 20:27:48 gregorynyssa: "we will find out who diddled the keys and why"
14:41 Apocalyptic curious to see what asciilifeform has in store for this new version
← 2021-05-22 | 2021-05-24 →