00:10 |
Apocalyptic |
asciilifeform, any ETA for phuctor's return ? |
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~ 18 minutes ~ |
00:28 |
gregorynyssa |
verisimilitude: is that your own website? you are also Russian American like asciilifeform? |
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00:30 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037381 << I am quite interested in this as well. groundbreaking and also cinematic if I might say. |
00:30 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 20:07:13 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, any ETA for phuctor's return ? |
00:30 |
gregorynyssa |
"we will find out who diddled the keys and why" |
00:32 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037378 << APl is beautiful but it is arguably not a general-purpose language |
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00:32 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 19:00:58 verisimilitude: I want to draw a little comic depicting how languages travel; the C language ignores traffic lights, as an example; APL is the only one not driving, but instead riding a train. |
00:33 |
gregorynyssa |
I say arguably because if you have studied it deeply enough, you can make it behave more like a general-purpose language, but few people ever reach that stage |
00:40 |
gregorynyssa |
if anyone has any recommended books or papers concerning APL, please let me know. I still intend to learn more of the language down the road. |
00:40 |
gregorynyssa |
I am not as good as I would like to be. |
00:42 |
verisimilitude |
Is which website mine? |
00:42 |
verisimilitude |
APL may not be general-purpose, but then few languages actually are. |
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00:43 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037391 << mattmik.com |
00:43 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 20:39:23 verisimilitude: Is which website mine? |
00:43 |
verisimilitude |
APL in particular isn't good for linked structures. |
00:43 |
verisimilitude |
No. |
00:43 |
verisimilitude |
http://verisimilitudes.net |
00:43 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037397 << I knew about that one. |
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00:43 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 20:40:50 verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net |
00:54 |
verisimilitude |
I find general-purpose usually means equally bad at everything. |
00:57 |
gregorynyssa |
the term general-purpose in my experience usually means two things: (1) strong support for I/O; (2) strong support for string-processing.\ |
00:57 |
gregorynyssa |
Tcl took #2 to the extreme; not without reason IMO. |
00:58 |
verisimilitude |
I find that absurd. |
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~ 25 minutes ~ |
01:24 |
gregorynyssa |
Tk is pretty bad, I will admit. |
01:24 |
gregorynyssa |
the cleverness of Tcl did not extend to Tk. |
01:32 |
verisimilitude |
I just don't see I/O as related in any way to this. |
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01:32 |
verisimilitude |
It could be argued most I/O today is just due to poor abstractions. |
01:33 |
trinque |
sounds instead like the requirements for webshitlangs, meaning no offense to gregorynyssa |
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01:34 |
* |
trinque is up to eyeballs in such languages himself most days |
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01:36 |
trinque |
gregorynyssa: what do you find clever in tcl? |
01:36 |
verisimilitude |
I'd claim I'd rather kill myself than use such languages, but the truth is I'd rather kill someone else. |
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01:36 |
trinque |
verisimilitude: you fixate too much on your feelings; no one cares |
01:42 |
verisimilitude |
It's a joke. |
01:43 |
verisimilitude |
I suppose I should joke less here. |
01:47 |
trinque |
watch, I'll do the low-effort thing too. holy shit gregorynyssa, uplevel and upvar mean I can't understand *any* procedure without reading the entire call-stack. |
01:48 |
trinque |
now I suppose I should proceed to a non sequitur about some other language I Like (TM) |
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01:54 |
verisimilitude |
I don't consider my jokes low-effort, although suppose some are. |
01:54 |
verisimilitude |
Anyway, I appreciate the criticism. |
01:55 |
trinque |
back on subj, "general purpose lang" is indeed often a fig leaf for "had no particular design principles, thus accreted popular hacks" |
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~ 2 hours 34 minutes ~ |
04:30 |
whaack |
asciilifeform: Okay, for clarification, you say the non-low-S-enforcing chain, to be concrete, was out POW'd and then in the next line say "after this...at a certain pt (when?) high-S became unmineable" ---- If the NON-low-S-enforcing chain was OUT-pow'd, (by OUT-pow'd I understand defeated, as in out-run) then wouldn't the first |
04:30 |
whaack |
block where high-S becomes unmineable be the start of the fork, which by pete's article would be block # 363,731 ? |
04:30 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 18:45:28 asciilifeform: whaack: the non-low-S-enforcing chain, to be concrete, was out-POW'd. |
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~ 5 hours 27 minutes ~ |
09:58 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037407 << this sounds like a very Haskellian sentiment. |
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09:58 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 21:29:56 verisimilitude: It could be argued most I/O today is just due to poor abstractions. |
10:00 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037408 << so-called "web" languages have been surprisingly effective with regard to the implementation of command-line utilities, this being no accident. |
10:00 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 21:30:40 trinque: sounds instead like the requirements for webshitlangs, meaning no offense to gregorynyssa |
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10:02 |
gregorynyssa |
this is not to say that I am fully or even broadly satisfied with "web" languages or with Tcl, as I have continued to harbor two main objections which happened to be the same two mentioned by asciilifeform in his introduction to FFA: |
10:03 |
gregorynyssa |
(1) the rules of the language are constantly being updated by the vendor; |
10:04 |
gregorynyssa |
(2) programs written in the language contain opaque run-time structures. |
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10:05 |
gregorynyssa |
IMO not only is it imperative that the grammar must be formally specified and then frozen as in the case of Ada, but also, |
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10:05 |
gregorynyssa |
the run-time structures underlying the language must be treated as part of the grammar. |
10:07 |
gregorynyssa |
over time I have learned the difficult lesson that having an arbitary dividing line between specification and implementation is scarcely better than having no specification. |
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10:15 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037410 << the language is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs. it unifies function-definition syntax and configuration-file syntax. it unifies call-by-value and call-by-name through "upvar." it has (limited) support for continuations. it was specifically built to solve last-mile problems (functions requiring intensive computation |
10:15 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 21:33:24 trinque: gregorynyssa: what do you find clever in tcl? |
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10:15 |
gregorynyssa |
would be written in C and linked to the interpreter). |
10:16 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037415 << granted, just because one can write obfuscated code doesn't mean that he should. |
10:17 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 21:44:56 trinque: watch, I'll do the low-effort thing too. holy shit gregorynyssa, uplevel and upvar mean I can't understand *any* procedure without reading the entire call-stack. |
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10:21 |
gregorynyssa |
Tcl has numerous problems, one of which is the lack of a dynamic FFI (allowing the language to swallow DLLs at runtime). |
10:21 |
gregorynyssa |
another is the lack of support for UDP. |
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10:22 |
gregorynyssa |
another is the reliance upon opaque optimizations to allow lists to be efficiently operated upon. |
10:23 |
gregorynyssa |
inconsistently named standard-library functions, a problem shared with PHP. |
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10:27 |
gregorynyssa |
the built-in "dictionary" type which was later added to the language to supplement "arrays" is ugly and unorthogonal. |
10:28 |
gregorynyssa |
the organization of namespaces and modules was a mess. |
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~ 56 minutes ~ |
11:24 |
feedbot |
http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/of-coffee-and-code/ << Fixpoint -- Of coffee and code |
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~ 3 hours 16 minutes ~ |
14:41 |
Apocalyptic |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037385 << not convinced we will find out exactly who did it and why, but I'm always up for some mathematical experiments |
14:41 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-22 20:27:48 gregorynyssa: "we will find out who diddled the keys and why" |
14:41 |
Apocalyptic |
curious to see what asciilifeform has in store for this new version |