Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-05-21 | 2021-05-23 →
00:14 asciilifeform verisimilitude: long story. price went up to 50, then iirc 100. see logs.
00:27 verisimilitude I'm surprised anyone paid.
00:29 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'm not. ever heard of MMM?
00:30 verisimilitude No.
00:30 asciilifeform verisimilitude: e.g.
00:35 verisimilitude Oh, this was like a Russian Softbank.
00:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: after su collapse, poverty + financial illiteracy led to an explosion in every kind of flimflammery and in particular mega-ponzis like mmm.
00:39 asciilifeform as i understand, every east blok country had one or more roughly-similar 'success'.
00:42 asciilifeform in many parts of the so-called civilized world, ponzis aint even illegal today (normally, so long as either clearly labeled as pyramid, or there is some minimal component of 'normal' economic activity. 'multi-level marketing' being one well-known example in usa)
00:43 asciilifeform the proponents argue that folx sign up knowingly, and as such it is a form of gambling.
00:45 asciilifeform most ponzi artists target 'unwashed masses'. but not all. b. madoff, for instance, did not.
00:46 * asciilifeform bbl.
~ 15 hours 25 minutes ~
16:12 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
16:12 btcinfobot Current BTC price in USD: $37882.59
16:12 asciilifeform !w poll
16:12 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
16:12 watchglass 24.28.108.235:8333 : Could not connect! (Operator: trinque)
16:12 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
16:12 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
16:12 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
16:12 watchglass 108.31.170.100:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.097s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684552 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:12 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.088s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=684552
16:12 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.108s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684552
16:12 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.102s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=684552
16:12 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.152s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684552
16:12 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.244s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684552
16:12 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.138s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=684552 (Operator: whaack)
16:12 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.176s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684552
16:12 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.274s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684552
~ 23 minutes ~
16:35 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036533 << is this the line you're talking about? inside the loop in gen_chanlist?
16:35 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-18 13:36:23 asciilifeform: billymg: the most egregious sharp edge i've not had time to sand off, is the channel menu, it could be generated with 1 sql query rather than N, in principle
16:37 billymg if so, it's a tricky query. only way i could see to get it into one SQL query is with a 'union' statement between, essentially, num_chans queries
16:39 billymg and performance is worse using union vs just doing individual queries
16:40 billymg my results on my rockchip: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=v6kO
16:40 whaack asciilifeform: When planning what to do for my pushtx command for my blockexplorer, I dug up some old log thread about this whole high/low s ordeal. I did not fully grok everything, I believe. For one, was there actually a softfork regarding this - i.e. do miners actually reject blocks with a 'high s' signature? Or are the transactions
16:41 whaack just not relayed?
16:41 snsabot (trilema) 2016-01-13 mod6: so currently, the main thing im working on/looking at is a possible high/low-S vpatch
16:42 billymg asciilifeform: actually, perhaps i spoke too soon. more complete results here: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=mT4_
16:42 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 12:37:22 billymg: my results on my rockchip: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=v6kO
16:44 billymg very minor savings (when db/proggy on the same box), but probably worth refactoring just for neatness and for users who may want to set up their db on a separate box
16:45 whaack For the record, if it's not deemed stoopid, I want to create a 'private' (i.e. only accepts txns pushed through the irc interface) mempool with the most trb-compliant and sane relay policy. So, following the conclusions I gathered from reading the thread, it should accept high or low S txns, and relay them, whether or not miners today accept the high s transactions is another story.
16:46 whaack Practically speaking, it may be worth issueing some warning to the user that currently miners 'dun like transactions congruent to 3 mod 17'
~ 18 minutes ~
17:04 trinque whaack: not trying to be a dick here, but what makes you think IRC is private?
17:07 whaack I don't think irc is private, that's why I put private in quotes and added the parenthetical clarification, I meant to say that the explorer has a separate mempool that can only be accessed via irc commands
17:10 trinque got ya
17:11 trinque whaack: the thing would eat a paste of a transaction? seems like tx hex would be longer than IRC maxlen sometimes.
17:14 whaack trinque: Yes, to deal with this problem I added a feature where arguments can be passed directly into an irc line or via a link to the paste of the arguments
17:15 whaack trinque: see http://logs.bitdash.io/whaacked
17:17 whaack This feature afaik is only useful for pushing raw txns, every other command has arguments that fit in an irc line, but I made the feature available for every command.
17:19 whaack Er, for the sake of the logs see http://logs.bitdash.io/whaacked/2021-05-22#1000018
17:19 bitdashbot (whaacked) 2021-05-22 whaack: !e view-raw-block 728
~ 2 hours 31 minutes ~
19:50 Apocalyptic Regarding the libera.chat drama, Freenode ops abuse
19:58 shinohai i adapted tcinfobot to sun on lisp ircd ok
19:59 verisimilitude Hello, Apocalyptic.
20:00 Apocalyptic Hi verisimilitude
20:03 verisimilitude That link is amusing.
20:04 verisimilitude ``In my view this risk is sufficiently high that the only reasonable course of action at this point is to assume out of caution that all Freenode PMs are tapped.''
20:04 verisimilitude Only idiots weren't already doing this.
20:05 shinohai verisimilitude: lmfao
20:07 shinohai tyvm deedbot
20:07 Apocalyptic verisimilitude, I agree, expecting PMs in cleartext travelling on a network you have no control over to be private is lulzy
20:07 shinohai for rears of wartime service
20:09 shinohai *years
20:10 verisimilitude Since that link mentions Hacker News, I'm almost tempted to try pointing to my work there again, but it would likely be ignored. I should find more places to discuss my work, but so many are just spam holes nowadays.
20:11 verisimilitude I'd upload my work to Reddit, but that would require me to use Reddit; nearly every time I glance over there, more posts have been silently removed from discussions.
20:19 verisimilitude On that note, have a website, Apocalyptic?
20:32 Apocalyptic verisimilitude, sadly I do not, nothing worth publishing, this may be relevant to your question
20:32 snsabot Logged on 2019-12-26 23:35:24 asciilifeform: really, nuffin at all ?!
20:41 verisimilitude Oh, alright.
20:44 verisimilitude I feel the pain of never doing enough, by my thinking.
20:48 Apocalyptic I find myself spending an increasing amount of time in meatspace, and when in front of computer I mainly do math/prog puzzles a la Project Euler
21:03 verisimilitude Care for a similar suggestion?
21:05 Apocalyptic depends what you're into really
21:06 verisimilitude Consider writing CHIP-8 games.
21:07 Apocalyptic I have nfi what CHIP-8 is, will look it up
21:08 Apocalyptic I did my fair share of game writing when I was younger, can't say it's still a topic of interest these days
21:08 verisimilitude I'll provide a good link.
21:09 verisimilitude http://mattmik.com/files/chip8/mastering/chip8.html
21:09 verisimilitude My website also has a few of my games, which I heavily document.
21:10 verisimilitude Writing CHIP-8 games could be fun, like puzzles.
~ 54 minutes ~
22:04 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037233 << what it oughta do , is to only look at lines which hit the db since the last max index.
22:04 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 12:36:59 billymg: and performance is worse using union vs just doing individual queries
22:04 asciilifeform rather than at entire db.
22:05 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037235 << 'soft fork' was the enemy term -- i.e. prb won't relay such blox, and prb-based cartel miners won't mine'em or mine on top of'em
22:05 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 12:38:11 whaack: asciilifeform: When planning what to do for my pushtx command for my blockexplorer, I dug up some old log thread about this whole high/low s ordeal. I did not fully grok everything, I believe. For one, was there actually a softfork regarding this - i.e. do miners actually reject blocks with a 'high s' signature? Or are the transactions
22:06 asciilifeform whaack: the things that happens when you actually broadcast a high-S tx has yet to be adequately 100% explained, afaik.
22:06 snsabot (trilema) 2017-07-25 asciilifeform: interestingly asciilifeform recently learned that the 'mutate high to low S and broadcast malleated tx but ONLY if a 'doublespend attempt' ( you retransmitting, say, with patched trb ) is detected ' thing is STILL running
22:07 asciilifeform (if not obv. from above - initially nothing happens. until you try to spend that coin again, at whatever point, even month later -- suddenly the old tx is dug up, immediately, (by who? why? nfi) malleated into low-S, and... mined into a block.
22:07 asciilifeform )
22:08 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037241 << outta curiosity, what's the practical use of a manual 'stuff tx here' gadget? i never understood the appeal
22:08 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 12:42:47 whaack: For the record, if it's not deemed stoopid, I want to create a 'private' (i.e. only accepts txns pushed through the irc interface) mempool with the most trb-compliant and sane relay policy. So, following the conclusions I gathered from reading the thread, it should accept high or low S txns, and relay them, whether or not miners today accept the high s transactions is another story.
22:09 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037244 << a thing where can ~search~ mempool , display stats, etc. imho would be nifty
22:09 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 13:04:33 whaack: I don't think irc is private, that's why I put private in quotes and added the parenthetical clarification, I meant to say that the explorer has a separate mempool that can only be accessed via irc commands
22:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037252 << see thread on subj.
22:12 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 15:47:57 Apocalyptic: Regarding the libera.chat drama, Freenode ops abuse
22:12 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-19 17:24:59 asciilifeform: btw, for anyone who doesn't know, this is what the 'volunteers' of fleanode historically volunteered .
22:12 whaack asciilifeform: Dafuq, that is quite strange re the delayed malleation, seems like some sort of random fuck-you move being done by someone with a better position in the graph of nodes, I don't see why it would be done by a miner.
22:14 asciilifeform whaack: i suspect it is a side effect of some algo used by miners to fuck competitors, but nfi specifically how
22:17 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037265 << ''is full of people who are fulla shit, and the vermin of the world inhabit it..'
22:17 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 16:09:00 verisimilitude: I'd upload my work to Reddit, but that would require me to use Reddit; nearly every time I glance over there, more posts have been silently removed from discussions.
22:19 whaack asciilifeform: There was a mention of a fork related to the high/low s problem, is there a block number associated with it and a publication of the blocks that were orphaned somewhere?
22:23 asciilifeform whaack: there was never a fork in the 'hard' sense, i.e. with 2-sided war. earliest afaik mention of the problem in the logs.
22:23 snsabot (trilema) 2015-10-15 BingoBoingo: The thing is does 0.5.X produce low-s transactions?
22:26 whaack asciilifeform: Right, I was wondering if there is a documentation of 10+ blocks or so that were lost in the transition, or if those blocks even exist
22:28 asciilifeform whaack: they may actually exist on your hdd. (that is, if you used e.g. asciilifeform's torrent to light up your noad; it descended from an old enuff noad to possibly contain this orphaned chainlet)
22:28 asciilifeform trb's db in fact retains orphaned chains on disk, 4evah
22:29 whaack asciilifeform: Nope, I did not use your torrent
22:29 whaack but that is good to know and if i find the time maybe i'll pick them out and try to document them for historical purposes
22:29 * asciilifeform has not made any efforts to catalogue these historical dead chains. they do exist on the disk, if you need'em for sumthing
22:29 asciilifeform whaack: if you write a detector for'em, i'ma happily run it on my db and give you the output.
22:30 whaack thanks, although in the case I do I'll probably download your torrent anyways
22:30 asciilifeform aite
22:30 asciilifeform it's still up fwiw.
22:32 asciilifeform see also re subj.
22:33 asciilifeform (archived.)
22:34 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: lemme know if you have any objections to this, but i'm thinking of auto-transforming qntra links to point to my mirror the way i do with btcbase linx.
22:34 asciilifeform iirc the dns is not controlled by BingoBoingo and will at some pt expire or goatse.
22:35 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
22:35 bitdashbot BingoBoingo last seen in #alethepedia on 2021-05-09 17:32:29: in wp-config.php
22:35 snsabot BingoBoingo last seen in #alethepedia on 2021-05-09 17:32:29: in wp-config.php
22:35 asciilifeform billymg: plz change the knob on yours to sumthing other than !q.
22:35 asciilifeform !q uptime
22:35 bitdashbot asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 2d 0h 6m
22:35 snsabot asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 0d 14h 41m
22:35 billymg asciilifeform: will do
22:35 asciilifeform thx
22:43 whaack asciilifeform: So I am a bit confuzzled as to what happened in this fork. My understanding is that the powerrrangers said "here's a new rule regarding signatures, all in favor raise your hands" then ~everyone raised their hands but only, say 30%, actually followed through with implementing the rule. So most miners continued as
22:43 whaack normal, allowing high and low s transactions, and then some other miners mined a minority chain 'hey we have a new rule why r u guys not following the new rule!!!!' . Now eventually this split in mining resolved, but my question is did the miners who stuck with the permitive high/low s succcumb and jump onto the minority chain, or did the minority chain give up and jump onto the high/low s chain,
22:43 whaack and then on that chain the new "low-s-only-rule" started to become enforced at a later block number?
22:43 asciilifeform iirc this was the july 4 '15 oops-fork, aha
22:44 asciilifeform afaik the minority-chain got out-POW'd, resolving the fork simply by 'mass'.
22:44 whaack Looks like pete documented it at block 363,731 -> 363,736
22:46 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037281 << by "what it oughta do", do you mean what postgres should be doing in its query plan, but isn't? or that query should be rewritten to coax postgres into using a more efficient plan?
22:46 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 18:01:32 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-22#1037233 << what it oughta do , is to only look at lines which hit the db since the last max index.
22:47 asciilifeform billymg: think about it: there's no reason to walk the entire DB, simply to find 'what was the most recent line marked $chan' etc
22:47 whaack asciilifeform: I don't see how saying 'the minority chain got out-POW'd' helps distinguish which chain succeeded, by definition the minority-chain is the one out-POW'd, no?
22:47 asciilifeform billymg: what it oughta do, is to only examine the lines that weren't in the db during the last query.
22:48 billymg asciilifeform: yes, that makes sense
22:48 asciilifeform whaack: the non-low-S-enforcing chain, to be concrete, was out-POW'd.
22:49 asciilifeform whaack: after this, via means unknown to asciilifeform , the miner cartel was established, and at a certain pt (when?) high-S became unmineable (or rather, will be mined after malleation by known party , as i described. can do the experiment yerself, afaik it still happens today)
22:51 billymg asciilifeform: here is the query plan for one chan, and the time it takes to execute: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=5ZXr
22:51 billymg asciilifeform: i just don't have a frame of reference to know if 37ms is a bad time for that query or not
22:52 asciilifeform billymg: well, it's ~37ms * how many chans, probably
22:52 asciilifeform before long, 'adds up to real money'
22:52 billymg a dozen give/take
22:52 asciilifeform also will depend on vagaries of disk cache etc
22:52 billymg sure
22:52 whaack asciilifeform: alright, thanks, I may have some more questions on this but for now i'm going to go setup a slackline on the beach
22:53 asciilifeform i suspect the bulk of time, billymg , is spent on long-dead chans (assuming linear walk)
22:53 asciilifeform whaack: no prob.
22:53 billymg asciilifeform: i'm just trying to get to root of the sharp edge you mentioned earlier
22:53 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-22 12:33:11 snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 13:36:23 asciilifeform: billymg: the most egregious sharp edge i've not had time to sand off, is the channel menu, it could be generated with 1 sql query rather than N, in principle
22:54 asciilifeform billymg: it's a simple fix, i simply have not gotten to it. (if 0 new lines in db since last page load -- should not even run the query.)
22:54 billymg i can rewrite the N queries into a single query with N unions, and takes about the same amount of time, maybe coupla ms less. but if db is on a separate box this would be a decent gain considering the network latency cost of making N separate requests
22:54 asciilifeform if 1 new line -- that's the only line that should impact the channel list generation.
22:55 asciilifeform etc
22:55 asciilifeform billymg: the channel list generator should only look at the lines entered into db since it last executed.
22:55 asciilifeform does this make sense ?
22:56 billymg asciilifeform: ahhh, so you were talking more about saving state somewhere in the logger, to prevent unnecessary queries, rather than simply doing a more efficient query?
22:56 billymg if that's the case then i misunderstood earlier
22:56 asciilifeform billymg: both, but forgot to mention the essential detail, lol
22:56 * asciilifeform has not looked under the hood of the logger in quite some time, before the recent threads with billymg
22:57 verisimilitude I'm having a hard time imagining something in sufficient detail, asciilifeform, loper-os. How would it be a high-level architecture, non-von Neumann, and yet also have characteristics such as orthogonal persistance; backing up some state to disk is easy to think, but requires being able to treat memory as inert.
22:57 asciilifeform verisimilitude: how much do you know re how cpu cache worx ?
22:58 verisimilitude I know a good bit.
22:58 asciilifeform verisimilitude: observe that it works without you ever explicitly concerning yourself with it.
22:58 verisimilitude I've already realized that using transactions enables grouping together the important memory to persist, but this is still von Neumann.
22:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: these are 100% separate problems.
22:59 verisimilitude Gee, I've read a good bit on when the caching doesn't work.
22:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i dun think i've ever owned a box where 'doesn't work' in the sense of returning random values
23:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: as for 'how persistence on non-vm machine?' -- the simplest method is that whatever computing elements used, have a non-volatile storage inside, large enough to hold 100% of whatever volatile state they have; and access to sufficient power (stored in supercap) to guarantee that the save takes place on interruption of power.
23:01 verisimilitude Transactions enable disregarding minor state, such as intermediate results, when persisting to disk, so it was fun to consider how almost all of the RAM can be safely ignored for this.
23:01 verisimilitude Alright, so very specialized hardware was the answer.
23:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the current vn state of the art is imho analogous to a bus with separate steering wheel and pedals for each wheel.
23:01 asciilifeform yes it is possible to drive such a bus.
23:02 asciilifeform but it would look quite ridiculous compared with a proper bus.
23:02 verisimilitude I've a better analogy.
23:05 verisimilitude Well, not an analogy, but a metaphor.
23:08 * asciilifeform must bbl
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