Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-02-20 | 2021-02-22 →
00:11 trinque verisimilitude: want a commission?
~ 39 minutes ~
00:50 verisimilitude What would this commission be for, trinque?
~ 9 hours 41 minutes ~
10:32 trinque verisimilitude: I'd like to see an implementation of this in Ada or CL, and haven't the time currently https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~petar/papers/maymounkov-online.pdf
~ 2 hours 17 minutes ~
12:49 verisimilitude I'll probably read this regardless, but what would the payment be, trinque?
~ 55 minutes ~
13:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude: some context for subj.
13:55 verisimilitude Oh, so I'm to understand this is something which has been wanted by trinque for years, and must be quite an undertaking, then?
14:02 trinque sadly, trinque spend most of his time doing things far less interesting, and perversely, more profitable.
14:03 trinque I expect this isn't more than a few weeks of effort.
14:04 trinque however, it's better to have the person evaluating the job estimate effort, and derive cost from that.
14:09 verisimilitude We'll continue once I read the paper, then.
14:09 verisimilitude Also, were I to do this, I'd license it as AGPLv3.
14:10 verisimilitude Still, the precedent the logs set doesn't look good for me, so I should stop discussing what I may do.
14:12 trinque ah, agpl is right out, so we can park it there.
14:13 trinque affero's license is specifically designed to trojan-horse useful items such that they can be the basis of lawsuit later.
14:17 verisimilitude I could be flexible, were I paid to be. Anything I write gratis which isn't insignificant is AGPLv3.
14:17 verisimilitude Explain this opinion more, trinque; I disagree with it.
14:17 trinque oh, you may have understood "commission"
14:17 trinque that usually means paid.
14:18 trinque the idea is that a working item would end up in the public domain, or bsd licensed.
14:18 verisimilitude Yes.
14:18 trinque if you read the paper, you'll see it's meant to be used as a p2p network.
14:18 verisimilitude I prefer public domain over the BSD; I prefer extremes.
14:18 trinque sure, that'd probably the best outcome.
14:19 verisimilitude Still, I don't want to appear stupid in the likely case I never get around to this either, so I'll try to start reading the paper today or tomorrow.
14:19 trinque you have no obligation; I certainly haven't done it yet, and have been talking about it long enough.
14:20 trinque this'd be a step towards removing the foolish dependency on freenode.
14:20 trinque I'd be happy enough to see that to gift the person responsible a certain amount of coin.
14:21 verisimilitude Oh, so that's what this is for, neat.
14:22 trinque yep, it wont solve the whole problem, but I suspect it will provide a piece.
~ 24 minutes ~
14:47 verisimilitude So, care to explain why the AGPLv3 is so bad, trinque?
14:48 verisimilitude I find it a fine license, and it effectively prohibits larger corporations from using such software, despite not literally prohibiting it.
14:56 trinque suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.
14:57 trinque oops, now you might be sued.
14:57 trinque I dislike it because it's designed to be a commercial worm which infects like so ^
14:58 trinque I prefer folks state their intentions plainly, than playing "compliance" games with me.
15:00 verisimilitude I like it for these same reasons, so I suppose we simply disagree.
15:01 verisimilitude I don't feel sorry for someone who doesn't read the licenses.
15:02 trinque I've read, and therefore do not touch such items.
15:03 trinque such agreements are like any other kind of debt; I don't carry debt on principle.
15:03 verisimilitude I also avoid debt, and would disagree about it being debt, but also don't use others' libraries, so it still wouldn't be debt to me, even were that so.
15:07 trinque concretely, it'd be self-limiting to try to force behavior upon those that use a networking lib.
15:08 verisimilitude Well, the point is to prevent it from being used in proprietary software.
15:09 trinque sure, I'm familiar with the politics of RMS et al
15:09 trinque long discussed in the logs.
15:09 trinque I don't share them
15:09 trinque but I don't feel strongly about dissuading you of the same.
15:10 verisimilitude I'm rather certain neither of us will change the other's opinion, yes.
15:19 verisimilitude Oh, while it's on my mind, a scenario I find particularly amusing is when a loosely licensed program gets modifications licensed under copyleft, and the bemoaning that tends to occur with this.
~ 1 hours 44 minutes ~
17:03 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in actual practice, software licenses are ceremonial. historically they have not succeeded in tying any of the hands the license authors were hoping to tie (e.g. microshit's, crapple's); in the unlikely event that they 'really need' yer proggy, will a) simply crib it and embed in closed turd b) 'rewrite cleanly' at trifling expense
17:05 asciilifeform ( see e.g. also. )
17:05 snsabot (trilema) 2015-06-28 asciilifeform: i will note that llvm (since i mentioned it again) is upon the most cursory examination a piece of shit, that wasn't even built to 'be good' - but simply with the one and only purpose of killing gcc.
17:06 asciilifeform meanwhile, the amt of wankage around the subj of licenses, if printed an' stacked, could prolly build a ladder to orbit.
17:07 asciilifeform and all of it sums to 0.
17:08 verisimilitude I agree that's obviously the primary reason LLVM exists, and only fools disbelieve this.
17:08 asciilifeform afaik no human being (specifically in contrast to a usg.corp) has ever won a license suit. and i dun expect ever will.
17:08 verisimilitude There have been cases.
17:08 asciilifeform verisimilitude: link?
17:10 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032020 << if this in fact worked as described here, asciilifeform would be quite in favour of agpl etc.
17:10 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 14:56:50 trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.
17:10 verisimilitude Will this qualify: https://torquemag.io/2013/03/busybox
17:11 asciilifeform verisimilitude: pointedly nope. cuz , again, not human being.
17:12 asciilifeform fsf aint a human.
17:12 verisimilitude There was that one Linux kernel developer suing German corporations.
17:12 asciilifeform indeed if you reassign copyright of yer proggy to fsf, there's ~some~ chance of a 'sued, settled' story a la busybox. (slim.)
17:13 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik went nowhere.
17:13 asciilifeform these suits 'go somewhere' when it's in fact in the reich's interest for'em to 'go somewhere.' and not otherwise.
17:13 verisimilitude I don't disagree, but rolling over and dying is no solution either.
17:14 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it aint 'rolling over' to recognize that the pistol is a toy and pulling the trigger and screaming 'bang' kills 0 enemy
17:14 verisimilitude Or, considering yesterday, dying is a solution, but not a nice one.
17:14 verisimilitude It doesn't change that several corporations fear the AGPL.
17:15 asciilifeform important, imho, step in the development of any 21st c. thinking fella, is the realization that the legal system is an enemy, like cancer, it does not work 'for you' and if appears to be doing so, is simply to dupe you into delusion and voluntary compliance where otherwise would not
17:15 verisimilitude I know.
17:17 asciilifeform back to this : if the punishment for 'pulling in' a chain of ??? dependencies were that yer chair might explode under yer arse and scatter guts around the ceiling -- i'd be in favour.
17:17 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 14:56:50 trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.
17:17 asciilifeform the shit-soup model of software development is insufficiently, apparently, 'it's own punishment' atm.
17:17 verisimilitude I agree.
17:18 asciilifeform sadly, software licenses, no matter what the wording, dun do this.
17:18 asciilifeform the reality-based view is : 'intellectual property is what you keep to yourself.'
17:19 verisimilitude Oh, that I should've read that nice sentence sooner.
17:19 asciilifeform errything else is delusion (incl. self-delusion); when 'rubber hits road', microshit can use yer softs with impunity.
17:19 asciilifeform if this gives you heartburn -- don't publish where they'll see it.
17:21 verisimilitude Anyway, I'll still use the AGPLv3.
17:22 asciilifeform verisimilitude: for so long as you don't buy into the notion of the magick string ~doing~ sumthing -- won't harm
17:22 asciilifeform i still wonder wtf is the point tho.
17:23 * asciilifeform bbl.
17:23 verisimilitude I'm going to release the code anyway, and may as well try. I, of course and as mentioned, use the public domain when I don't care and it's insignificant.
17:26 verisimilitude The same criticism applies to this ``you have no right to use the software'' string I see on the software of those here.
17:27 verisimilitude Why bother with that, then?
17:27 verisimilitude It's the same difference.
17:27 verisimilitude I signal a strong preference for copyleft, whereas ye signal a strong dislike of the law.
17:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'the law' in fact worx exclusively against you an' i , and in favour of microshit et al (and the occasional popescu, patent troll, etc.)
17:41 asciilifeform the sooner you grasp this, the sooner can avoid blowing mental cpu cycles on dead end train of though 'how can i humiliate microshit using magick strings in my src files'
17:42 asciilifeform there aint a suitable magick string. cuz it in fact is not how reich law worx.
17:42 asciilifeform ( see also this re a sect in usa which believes that this is how law worx.. )
17:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032075 << mp came up with it, an' i and coupla other folx copied. it reflects (if imho verbosely) a reality-based view of software licensism.
17:44 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 17:26:54 verisimilitude: The same criticism applies to this ``you have no right to use the software'' string I see on the software of those here.
17:44 verisimilitude Yes, it's just signalling.
17:45 verisimilitude I already know justice is only served when people like McVeigh act.
17:45 * asciilifeform considering a shorter statement, to replace original, 'you do not have the right to use this material for any purpose. in fact you are breaking the copyright simply by reading this text; if you believe in copyright, you are asked to destroy your pirated copy of this text by killing yourself immediately.'
17:46 asciilifeform ^ in re mp's soft license.
17:46 verisimilitude I don't even like the idea of copyright, and it would ideally be vanquished.
17:47 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'when hiring an astrologer, hire the cheapest.' ideally propaganda oughta be short an' sweet.
17:47 asciilifeform i'ma update ffa etc. eventually.
17:47 asciilifeform cosmetics simply low priority atm & historically.
17:47 asciilifeform e.g. changing the spaces to tabs, ranks above this.
17:48 verisimilitude I never use tabs.
17:48 verisimilitude Anyway, I think I'll start doing some work right now.
17:48 asciilifeform verisimilitude: happy programming
17:48 * asciilifeform bbl.
17:52 trinque asciilifeform: since the discussion was an item I want, and not a general discussion of software licensing, I don't see what the point is.
17:53 trinque what sums to zero is the old republican "juche" mentality.
17:58 trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032043 << this is pulled squarely from your arse. agpl in particular has been the subject of plenty.
17:58 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 17:08:15 asciilifeform: afaik no human being (specifically in contrast to a usg.corp) has ever won a license suit. and i dun expect ever will.
18:04 trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032061 << curious how in this same cosmology some are wreckers, while others (patent trolls, etc) are doing god's work.
18:04 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 17:17:06 asciilifeform: back to this : if the punishment for 'pulling in' a chain of ??? dependencies were that yer chair might explode under yer arse and scatter guts around the ceiling -- i'd be in favour.
18:04 trinque at any rate, the whole point of the thread was that *I* would not accept an item with a contract embedded in it that declared the author fully intends to bring lawsuit.
18:05 trinque the moment I do anything interesting with it on a network.
18:06 trinque as for whether it protects against microshit et al, but of course not.
18:08 trinque actually, better stated, the presence of such a thing tells me something about the *author*, not the item.
~ 1 hours 31 minutes ~
19:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032100 << ianal, trinque , but afaik at no point has a ~human~ rightsholder won a software licensing suit. (prolly i oughta concretely specify, 'win' here in the ordinary sense, i.e. win monetary damages and/or compliance -- and not ceremonial 'here's our tarball of busybox' but with compelled verification of 'yes this src builds that-there distributed bin and all tainted
19:40 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 17:58:44 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032043 << this is pulled squarely from your arse. agpl in particular has been the subject of plenty.
19:40 asciilifeform propr. softs')
19:40 asciilifeform if i slept through such a case -- plox to describe it here.
19:41 asciilifeform on top of this, will add that asciilifeform witnessed in the salt mines instances of 1e6, 1e7 $ having been spent on prosecuting such suits, and with no conclusive result. this kind of thing is routine and almost unremarkable.
19:41 asciilifeform it's simply a contest of bank accts.
19:43 asciilifeform the usgcorp wins (often by simple prolongation/attrition) over the small firm; and similarly over the individual (esp. if the latter is a working stiff, rather than litigious blueblood)
19:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032102 << not 100% clear what's being asked. plz dun hesitate to elaborate.
19:44 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 18:04:19 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032061 << curious how in this same cosmology some are wreckers, while others (patent trolls, etc) are doing god's work.
19:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032107 << i understand the very human compulsion to perform magical chants, voodoo. my argument is simply that of 'license atheist' -- i do not believe that the gods being invoked, exist. (and to the extent they may -- they are evil gods, and best not invoked at all)
19:45 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 18:08:47 trinque: actually, better stated, the presence of such a thing tells me something about the *author*, not the item.
19:46 trinque perhaps, and I've spent some of dinner thinking about whether a gpg contract stating the disposition of the item would be better suited, but then I am not certain of the disposition of verisimilitude regarding those, with as quickly as reached for AGPL
19:48 asciilifeform trinque: imho folx oughta, as matter of course, discuss what exactly they're agreeing to , sign it, etc. the ritual incantations of opensoresdom is sumthing entirely, imho, else, tho.
19:49 asciilifeform it's voodoo spellcasting.
19:49 asciilifeform in old shamanic cultures they have this, 'hex against thieves', various forms.
20:01 trinque the distinction "affero" makes is that letting people interact with a system that uses the licensed item remotely constitutes distribution of the software, and draws the whole system using that software into the terms of the license.
20:02 asciilifeform trinque: can you see how in my pov this is 'theist' pov ?
20:04 trinque in your view I must deal with such people, or I'm a "theist"?
20:05 asciilifeform trinque: depends on what effect you think the incantations have.
20:06 trinque I see AGPL as a flag that the author is a litigious idiot. there's no harm in avoiding dealing with these.
20:07 trinque there are also fewer people attempting legal arguments that the BSD license is not binding, and precedent that it is.
20:07 trinque you're quite right that it's a game of cost.
20:08 trinque and it would be more expensive to say that BSD doesn't apply to people with left hands, than "AGPL applies to network software" since the latter's contract says that.
20:10 trinque take the "it's just financial competition" argument further. who else would care about BSD lic. being invalidated
20:13 shinohai This whole conversation sound suspiciously like http://www.wtfpl.net/about/ xD
20:16 verisimilitude I don't object to a contract, once I've read the paper and could discuss terms better, trinque; I almost had one with adlai, but rejected it.
20:16 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032127 << i see the use of any traditional license as sign that author is a vooddist. which imho is not mortal sin, but still a sin.
20:16 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 20:06:17 trinque: I see AGPL as a flag that the author is a litigious idiot. there's no harm in avoiding dealing with these.
20:17 * trinque can't disagree.
20:17 verisimilitude In ``the worst-case scenario'', in which I've finished it but don't get paid, I'd simply release it under the AGPLv3.
20:18 verisimilitude In this analogy, I suppose asciilifeform practices a more refined voodoo, atheism+ perhaps.
20:18 verisimilitude In the end, it's just signalling.
20:20 trinque curious how folks think bitcoin would work if it were released under AGPL
20:21 verisimilitude Before trinque comments on it, I don't expect to have any contract between us violated, it's just not impossible.
20:21 trinque but anyhow, I don't prefer to be the defender of licensism here.
20:22 verisimilitude An important point wasn't mentioned in this discussion: prole v. prole
20:22 verisimilitude If John Smith violates my copyright, I've a good chance at suing him and winning, don't we agree?
20:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: imho the right way to do any 'atheism' is where the removal of the dead 'gods' cleans out space inside yer head for more interesting subj. rather than as replacement-religion.
20:23 verisimilitude Yes.
20:23 trinque and prole v prole usually happens in front of a dumber judge.
20:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in prole vs prole, good chance of suit being throw out; and if not, then typically 'the lawyers win'
20:24 trinque asciilifeform: that latter bit means the more rational party is at the mercy of the self-immolator
20:24 trinque I *have* experienced one of those.
20:25 asciilifeform normally the party willing & able to blow more dough -- wins.
20:25 asciilifeform usgcorp often draws out suit into decades, even when would be massively +ev to settle -- simply to 'teach lesson to others'
20:26 trinque that strategy can be employed just as well by a dipshit with a lawyer buddy who accepts IOUs or bags of blow.
20:26 asciilifeform aha
20:27 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032140 << before this gets lost -- imho, approx same as it worked in fact. and for that matter, yer linux box prolly has gif, mp3 decoder, even tho both in supposedly patent/copyrasty inferno
20:27 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-21 20:20:39 trinque: curious how folks think bitcoin would work if it were released under AGPL
20:27 asciilifeform for that matter, trinque , ~all variants of luby algo are similarly usg.prohibited.
20:27 asciilifeform i aint about to give damn.
20:28 asciilifeform ( anyone recall pike's original software patent ? the one on 'unix pipe' )
20:28 verisimilitude The paper covers patented algorithms?
20:29 trinque this guy's thing looks like a huge improvement to what luby had.
20:29 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ianal, but per popular legend e.g. 'tornado code', 'turbo code', under patent
20:29 asciilifeform trinque: aaha. specifically these, and variants.
20:30 * asciilifeform not advocating giving a damn; quite opposite.
20:30 verisimilitude Patented algorithms are bullshit.
20:31 asciilifeform verisimilitude: lemme spell this out ftr :
20:33 asciilifeform 1) reich is your enemy in all situations. 2) no exceptions to (1). if you take a dispute to a reich court, the winner is always the reich. 3) all courts on planet3 atm are reich courts.
20:34 verisimilitude What of North Korea?
20:34 asciilifeform 4) follow the 11th commandment and keep it holy : 'not caught -- not thief'
20:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik scale model of nato reich.
20:34 asciilifeform (at one time , when had intact autarkik industrial economy under kim 1 -- was sovereign)
20:35 verisimilitude Fact four is obvious.
20:35 asciilifeform not that i wouldn't enjoy to see a test gpl suit heard in pyongyang !
20:35 asciilifeform they're an ethnostate, tho, verisimilitude , it aint happening.
20:36 verisimilitude It would be nice to live in an ethnostate.
20:36 asciilifeform yea well unless you already do, it aint happening
20:36 verisimilitude That would make a bad government much more bearable.
20:37 verisimilitude Without a carrot, the stick is just for beatings.
20:37 asciilifeform ask adlai re adlaistan. dun seem to work so well there (then again many argue that is faux ethnostate)
20:39 verisimilitude I wasn't aware Israel was faking putting certain classes of immigrants on birth control, or DNA-testing for citizenship.
20:40 asciilifeform verisimilitude: having a class of hated untermenschen dun make for ethnostate.
20:40 asciilifeform north kr is better example. afaik no white man there can so much as cross a street w/out 4 gestapo handlers following behind.
20:41 verisimilitude Well, in the US, they even try, or succeed, in passing laws where it's okay to abort children, unless they're defective, which is awful.
20:41 asciilifeform jp is a milder version of ethnostate, but still working example.
20:41 asciilifeform you will get tenure at harvard 5 times before you get citizenship in jp.
20:41 verisimilitude Oh, they didn't come to mind, but yes.
20:42 trinque upstack, I previously looked into this as fountain-codes were also part of an IETF RFC.
20:42 asciilifeform and e.g. is perfectly legal in jp to refuse entry to white devil. w/out giving any pretext whatsoever.
20:42 asciilifeform in restaurants etc
20:42 trinque qualcomm will only sue you if you build it into a radio you sell.
20:42 asciilifeform trinque: indeed was. iirc linked in #t at one time
20:42 asciilifeform trinque: 'promises not to sue' aint binding.
20:43 trinque https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2554/
20:43 trinque sure, I know.
20:43 verisimilitude Of course, we come back to this.
20:43 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-20 22:21:56 verisimilitude: The simple fact of things, is that the world would be better if everyone I didn't like were dead.
20:43 * asciilifeform recalls this one
20:44 trinque let me put it another way. sun tzu would be disappointed in a student that ran up to qualcomm and said "bang".
20:44 asciilifeform trinque: my point is that a serious believer in obedience to patentism/copyrasty ought not to program at all. because it is factually impossible to do so without violating usg.patents.
20:45 trinque there's plenty of sense in pricing risk before buying.
20:45 trinque doesn't mean one doesn't take risks.
20:45 asciilifeform trinque: you can dig up an active patent covering literally anything you might ever care to do in a proggy. i shit thee not.
20:45 asciilifeform incl. quicksort. etc
20:45 * trinque believes
20:45 verisimilitude I've written before about this topic.
20:46 asciilifeform there's a popular but very mistaken belief that one can 'stay on right side of law' even in a reich and ought to do xyz, not do ~xyz, etc, and then 'will be safe'
20:47 trinque I don't think in binaries.
20:47 asciilifeform in point of fact if yer corpse is needed to fill nkvd quota -- will help to fill it. and has 0 to do w/ 'guilt'.
20:48 asciilifeform qualcomm will win patent suit against you or i no matter what we put or do not put in program.
20:48 asciilifeform ergo not worth even iota of effort to try to decide 'shoudl i put this..'
20:49 asciilifeform see e.g. 'decss'.
20:49 asciilifeform imagine if author had worried 'but am i violator??'
20:49 * trinque doesn't even disagree, so isn't necessary to belabor the point.
20:49 verisimilitude I'm a creative person, and won't let my society destroy that. I'm fully aware I could be crushed by a corporation or my government for any reason, but have no choice but to live with that.
20:49 asciilifeform aite
20:49 asciilifeform i'ma bbl then.
20:49 trinque cya!
20:49 * trinque very happy to not self-edit, but likes to enumerate known risk, and mitigate where possible.
20:51 verisimilitude It's in one's best interest to claim ``Of course I wouldn't murder the senator's children if given the chance.'', regardless of how true this may be.
20:52 trinque there's also the plain matter of knowing how much leverage one has, and not *seeking* stupid fights.
20:52 trinque see above re: sun tzu
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