Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2020-12-01 | 2020-12-03 → ↓
11:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-01#1025678 << nifty postmortem. and imho illustrates well the futility of 'mitigations'.
11:06 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-01 20:51:02 mats: https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2020/12/an-ios-zero-click-radio-proximity.html
11:06 snsabot (trilema) 2015-07-07 asciilifeform: mats: as a rule, i am entirely uninterested in 'mitigations'
11:06 snsabot (trilema) 2015-10-27 asciilifeform: if you are unwilling to treat the problem as something to be abolished AS A LOGICAL CLASS - you are stuck with idiot epicycles
11:10 asciilifeform the author of linked piece, is, unsurprisingly, an establishment tool. i.e. he tipped off crapple, instead of e.g. worming the hell outta the whole planetary ipnoje install base.
11:10 asciilifeform sad but typical.
11:12 asciilifeform not that it matters one lick in the general case -- ~all~ overflowlang shitware is effectively nsaware, i.e. has inexhaustible supply of exploitable bugolade.
11:12 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
11:12 btcinfobot Current BTC price in USD: $18895.62
11:12 asciilifeform !w poll
11:12 watchglass Polling 16 nodes...
11:12 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640 (Operator: asciilifeform)
11:12 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.114s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : Could not connect! (Operator: jurov)
11:12 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.024s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=659544 (Operator: whaack)
11:12 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.135s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 71.114.46.209:8333 : (pool-71-114-46-209.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640 (Operator: asciilifeform)
11:12 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.178s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.230s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.327s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : (tlapnet-38-54.cust.tlapnet.cz) Alive: (0.411s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.656s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.266s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=659640
11:12 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
11:13 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
11:14 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 120 sec.)
11:14 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 120 sec.)
~ 1 hours 31 minutes ~
12:46 verisimilitude What incenses me, asciilifeform, is that not only are people expected to hand over the discovered flaws, but do it for a pittance, a reduced-rate that's been gaslit as ``the right thing to do''.
12:50 verisimilitude I could see it being fine, were the reward commensurate, but it's effectively ``Here kid, buy part of a house.''.
12:53 verisimilitude It's disappointing that perfect software is possible, but the overlords are too incompetent to build it. Movies depict evil empires run with cold efficiency, and many other things, but my sparse knowledge of the world has me inclined to perhaps believe that the US has been mostly successful with, say, war, because of its chaotic nature, and not because of much of anything greater.
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12:54 verisimilitude What I've in mind are those quotes from Germany and Russia and the US, where the US one is, paraphrased: ``If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!''
~ 46 minutes ~
13:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: see also.
13:41 snsabot (trilema) 2017-12-24 asciilifeform: the 3 or 4 people on the planet who can actually SELL 0days , knowing they'll be paid 1) know who they are 2) wouldn't even cough and spit for a mere 500 , esp if paid in taxolade 3) don't deal with 'uber' et al, or any 'responsible-disclosure'-pushing usg.tentacle , not for promises of three kingdoms and five princesses
13:41 snsabot (trilema) 2017-12-24 asciilifeform: the 3 or 4 people on the planet who can actually SELL 0days , knowing they'll be paid 1) know who they are 2) wouldn't even cough and spit for a mere 500 , esp if paid in taxolade 3) don't deal with 'uber' et al, or any 'responsible-disclosure'-pushing usg.tentacle , not for promises of three kingdoms and five princesses
13:41 snsabot (trilema) 2018-05-04 asciilifeform: for instance 'responsible disclosure' ( i.e. if you find a bug, report to usg first )
13:41 snsabot (trilema) 2018-05-22 asciilifeform: douchebag: https://www.hackerone.com/disclosure-guidelines << 'responsible disclosure'ism, payment in kycolade, etc crapola
13:41 snsabot (trilema) 2018-05-22 asciilifeform: the only responsible, in actuality, disclosure, is one that deals maximal damage to the fucking great satan.
13:41 * asciilifeform lost a line in there somewhere, but nao too late.
13:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-02#1025708 << it aint about incompetence. e.g. tagged memory architectures existed in 1970s. instead, it's about this. there is 0 systemic incentive to release products which work 'now and forever' and require 0 'upgrades', 'mitigations', etc.
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13:45 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-02 12:53:59 verisimilitude: It's disappointing that perfect software is possible, but the overlords are too incompetent to build it. Movies depict evil empires run with cold efficiency, and many other things, but my sparse knowledge of the world has me inclined to perhaps believe that the US has been mostly successful with, say, war, because of its chaotic nature, and not because of much of anything greater.
13:45 snsabot Logged on 2020-08-20 19:16:49 asciilifeform: Aerthean: related reading. it is ~very~ difficult to profit by 'actually Do Right Thing' in engineering, vs. 'convincingly pretend to Do Right Thing' , 'i can't believe it's not butter!' atrocities.
~ 21 minutes ~
14:07 thimbronion asciilifeform: perhaps the only incentive to 'Do Right Thing' wrt computers arises in life or death existential matters, such as war, and humdrum commerce will just never cut it.
14:07 asciilifeform thimbronion: and usually not even then. see also e.g. f35, boeing 737max..
14:08 thimbronion asciilifeform: f35 ever used in combat? I have no rejoinder wrt the 737max.
14:10 asciilifeform see also.
14:10 snsabot Logged on 2020-01-13 21:34:10 asciilifeform: ( notably, the vendors won in the end, and the usg.pentagon's imposition of ada for war machine industry was repealed. so that microshit cpp could reign. )
14:11 asciilifeform the 'interchangeable component model of software engineers' in the end won even there (so that bluebloods could buy 3rd and 4th yachts.)
14:11 verisimilitude The incompetence persists even when doing the right thing is the entire point, such as with things meant to restrict users.
14:11 verisimilitude Intel wants a ``secure enclave'' or whatever, and can't do it properly.
14:12 verisimilitude I've read that only Israel has had any use out of the F35, asciilifeform.
14:12 asciilifeform verisimilitude: that's the thing, it aint meant to be used. purchased -- yes. paraded -- occasionally. used?
14:14 verisimilitude Ada is intended to make the programmer fungible, in the sense that any large project over long enough needs to, but it's different from languages such as Java and Go, in that it doesn't bust the programmer's kneecap to do it.
14:15 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ada was primarily intended to make the ~lang vendor~ fungible. errything else, was afterthought.
14:15 asciilifeform this was same period as when us-dod attempted to enact e.g. a 'standard cpu' for all official irons
14:16 verisimilitude I'm not familiar with that; do tell.
14:17 asciilifeform verisimilitude: subj
14:17 verisimilitude Alright.
14:18 asciilifeform repealed, btw. and afaik last remaining producer of'em is... chinese.
14:18 verisimilitude On the topic, Ada is nice, but I think a better way for building such software is producing the highest-level model, with as little human direction, and then using tools to manipulate it for the particulars, until it can be guaranteed it meets the requirements.
14:19 asciilifeform verisimilitude: to understand context in which ada was enacted, must look at what sort of horrors were then in common use in heavy industry.
14:19 verisimilitude So, ``Read from sensor and do this.'' and the like is accomplished with, say, one line of APL for the entire system (A better non-textual language would be best.), and then the machine is told to optimize it for these qualities, until it can be guaranteed real-time, etc.
14:20 verisimilitude Another quality would be ensuring it runs in constant memory, etc.
14:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: this is known traditionally as 'sufficiently smart compiler'(tm). a kind of philosopher's stone in the industry.
14:21 verisimilitude The major work, at least at the beginning, would be building proven optimizers and whatnot so it actually works, but it would probably be reusable.
14:21 verisimilitude I don't see it that way, asciilifeform.
14:22 verisimilitude Importantly, I want to again stress this would ideally not be a language, but a tool.
14:22 verisimilitude I'm convinced textual languages are poor tools, and not the future, if the future is to be worth a damn.
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14:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: to date, efforts at 'automated proof systems' more or less all resolve to this.
14:23 snsabot (trilema) 2016-01-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i was a small boy, my elder brother taught me a lesson once:
14:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i would not refuse a mechanical reasoner/optimizer/etc which WORKED and in fact simplified, and could 'explain' how did it,etc. but these don't actually exist, the state of the art there is stuck in the early '70s still.
14:26 verisimilitude I don't know how I'll take the idea behind mine MMC, along with other thoughts, and apply it to a high-level system, but I must act as if it's something I can accomplish.
14:27 verisimilitude Perhaps weapons will cease to be programmed, per se, and built out of more specialized components. Its ``mind'' is viable, if it can be pressed to valid hardware.
14:28 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it aint esp. 'sexy' activity, but i rec to read at least a little re historical compiler design (e.g. 'dragon book') an' get a sense of what can and what cannot be accomplished w/ known tech re mechanical optimizations
14:28 asciilifeform verisimilitude: also try programming in e.g. prolog, haskell, and see what looks like when the language feels free to make use of np-complete algos at will while trying to figure out what you meant by your proggy
~ 27 minutes ~
14:56 asciilifeform btw verisimilitude , this leads naturally into question : pcb routing is ideal fit for machine optimizer. constraints are easily expressed ('don't cross wires'; 'make'em all as short as possible'; 'reduce layers') and 0 intrinsic text involved. pcb routing is still hell. and 0 movement on this front in
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14:56 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-02 14:22:52 verisimilitude: I'm convinced textual languages are poor tools, and not the future, if the future is to be worth a damn.
14:56 asciilifeform decades.
15:03 verisimilitude Well, one thing I'm certain of is that textual languages expose failure cases a dedicated tool can eliminate.
15:04 verisimilitude The iterated removal of failure cases, along with the tool knowing its purpose and being able to automate things textual languages typically can't, stands to at the very least improve the situation greatly.
15:15 BingoBoingo thimbronion: Israelis used F35 http://qntra.net/2019/07/israelis-enthusiastically-burning-f-35s-stealth-window-with-strikes-now-in-iraq/
15:16 BingoBoingo Pretty much the only ones to have used F35 and take advantage of the narrow window where the stealth gives them some alleged advantage over cheaper aircraft
15:17 thimbronion BingoBoingo: ok. My theory as stated doesn't stand then. I'll just mumble something to myself about Iraq not being a *real* adversary or something.
15:17 BingoBoingo thimbronion I suspect they rolled their own shit for substantial parts of the softs
15:18 BingoBoingo Or worked within the hard limits
15:18 BingoBoingo But yeah, they pretty much ruined the F35 for all the folks paying more and hoping to use it against real adversaries later
15:21 BingoBoingo Whether or not the F35 is getting shot down over Syria and Iraq yet... probably a really good picture of how they look to S-300 and S-400 radar arrays
15:21 thimbronion I suspect we'll find out (or someone will) soon wrt Syria.
15:23 BingoBoingo I strongly suspect there's an embargo on shooting them down. "Never interrupt enemy while they are making a mistake" and all that. F35 program has to have cost the US far more than any possible benefit that could be derived and... what real adversary would want to interrupt that
15:24 thimbronion BingoBoingo: I'm sure it's generated thousands upon thousands of mcmansions though.
15:25 BingoBoingo Funny how some people think those mcmansions are assets.
~ 16 minutes ~
15:42 verisimilitude I was going to make a joke about what a miracle Israel's use of the F35 would be lauded as, were religious texts still being written, but then I recalled that's what history books are.
~ 3 hours 22 minutes ~
19:04 shinohai asciilifeform: Ever used aws for Ada ?
19:11 asciilifeform shinohai: nope. tried -- but could not get the pile o'shit to build.
19:14 shinohai hmmm, kk thanx. Was reading docs on it to see if I could get it to build using libressl
~ 42 minutes ~
19:57 asciilifeform shinohai: wasn't even a sslism barf, iirc. simply, none of my gnats would swallow the thing w/out sea of eggog
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