#asciilifeform | 2020-06-08

~ 4 hours 58 minutes ~

07:52

BingoBoingo: do you realize how this enemy was used by mp to have us where he wanted to?

07:53

Paranoia is good resource, but in moderation.

~ 1 hours 35 minutes ~

09:29

jurov: what enemy?

09:39

I know which, just want to hear it.

09:41

I did not show up in 2015 or w/e it was and get brainwashed into rejecting the criminals in DC.

09:42

that said, as per asciilifeform, I am not aware that there's an "outside", certainly not for one without an armada

~ 49 minutes ~

10:31

trinque: "usg"

10:41

jurov: now that you mention it there was sort of a contradiction between "leave the us now!" and "usg is incompetent and ineffectual."

~ 21 minutes ~

11:03

thimbronion: i probably never wholly understood what is meant by usg, it seemed to me like an archetype of all darkness in the world

11:15

jurov: asciilifeform's pov on this differed from mp's. the latter, as i understand, defined only 'socialist' debasement of currency (and, eventually, the entire post-feudal spectrum of politics) as 'root evil'. but exempted chrematists. asciilifeform does not exempt chrematists.

↖ ↖

11:16

jurov: I thought it was this kind of undying, immune to democracy kind of bureaucratic beast with factions, ala usg.red and usg.blue.

11:17

( likbez: χρηματιστική (aristotle's) -- folx wealthy from manipulating money per se, not limited to printing it. i.e. usurers, constructors of 'financial instruments' , etc. )

11:23

'mp's philosophy' above of course referring to his orig. writings. in practice seems that his only actual gripe w/ usg was that it was sitting on 'his' chair, that he'd rather sit in himself.

11:24

(in the fine historical tradition of revolutionaries of all times and places.)

11:25

asciilifeform: wasn't it more that in addition to not being a sovereign itself, it also stamps out sovereignty where ever it might be found? mp at least claimed to want more mps.

11:26

thimbronion: he claimed to want a number of things, some of'em imho rather contradictory. in the style of e.g. lenin.

11:27

to give concrete example -- non-debased currency and freedom of commerce; but also somehow at same time feudal-style hereditary nobility. ignoring the historical fact that the former , on planet3, nailed the latter

↖ ↖

~ 15 minutes ~

11:42

asciilifeform: I got the impression he didn't think it would last for eternity, but wanted at least another go around.

11:43

asciilifeform: I think he even went so far as to propose restarting Bitcoin periodically.

11:44

jurov: I'd tend to credit your view if you mean in the "lizard hitler" manner

11:46

though if you mean the empire "isn't that bad" to hell with ya.

11:48

thimbronion: this was apparent to me as well. can't both be incompetent and all-devouring great satan

11:53

trinque: My rationale for going abroad at this point is - and I'm not certain about this at all - a) you don't want to be at the epicenter of a collapse and b) being in an area with a weak government has advantages if you know how to use them.

11:53

asciilifeform: I don't see inconsistency in the republic-with-king view. Plato's own work on subj featured such.

11:55

I also don't recall hereditarity coming in.

11:56

I much expected the tradition to become "burn my coins with my corpse" if the fallen had no other plans.

11:56

thimbronion: I don't know; I suspect I do want to be around for w/e happens to Texas.

11:56

and at any rate, gotta die somehow

11:59

trinque: I love Texas. Wish I had stayed there.

~ 15 minutes ~

12:15

trinque: fella made regular references to dukes, margraves, etc. as characters of a 'better time', destroyed by demotism

12:17

the chronology (either 'fr rev started destruction of sovereignty' or the 'diet of worms' one, he had at least 2) imho was just as selective a reading of actual events as what was taught at sovok schools. (albeit 'with sign bit flipped.')

12:21

church, merchants, even private agent 'sourcery prosecutors' -- often successfully interfered with, and even deposed, nominal sovereigns of $locale

12:24

historians who bite the 'return golden age' hook inevitably suffer from problem of 'just when was golden age?' -- if one dwells on any particular, will inevitably find not only problems, but rather 'modern' ones

12:25

even as far back as e.g. egypt -- solid power vertical ? not quite, priest caste hijacked pharaonic sovereignty until ~0 remained

12:25

asciilifeform: i agree in general with "there is no outside", but i think there are degrees to the inside-ness, which mostly have to do with the usg's cost to harass vs. result of harassment. e.g. it costs little to go bother the person living in a big city high rise (doorman working for building corp just hands over keys), whereas bothering the guy living on a ranch in texas costs slightly more

12:25

billymg: tricky question. in countryside, also fewer witnesses when yer ranch 'randomly' burns to the ground

12:26

asciilifeform: yes, ideally ranch with some neighbors you know well and see you at church every week

12:26

increases cost to usg

12:27

billymg: or , conversely, the hassids of nyc are effectively autonomous. w/ own secret courts, judges, juries, executioners

12:27

so this i see as another bullet for thimbronion's list, country outside (at least physically) of zone increases costs again

12:27

despite living mere dozen km from lolstreet

12:27

i.e. geography aint errythin

12:29

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014412 << 'devouring satan' w/ dull teeth, imho entirely consistent picture .

12:29

Logged on 2020-06-08 11:48:43 trinque: thimbronion: this was apparent to me as well. can't both be incompetent and all-devouring great satan

12:31

asciilifeform: as in, connections matter? of course, wouldn't disagree with that

12:32

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014409 << rather like idea of 'restart the sun periodically' imho. while it remains a decentralized system, will behave moar like a force of nature than anyffin within anyone's power to 'restart'.

12:32

Logged on 2020-06-08 11:43:43 thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think he even went so far as to propose restarting Bitcoin periodically.

12:32

( and when becomes effectively centralized -- will collapse, as all reichs collapse. )

12:33

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014416 << this is the default 'capt. kidd' setting. nobody's yet come up with method to yank privkeys outta corpse.

12:33

Logged on 2020-06-08 11:56:03 trinque: I much expected the tradition to become "burn my coins with my corpse" if the fallen had no other plans.

12:34

something else i personally like about being socially distanced from the US is not having to interact daily with the inmates. especially now with their mask-wearing, blm-kneeling campaign going on. i think there's some mental health value in just not being steeped in the madness 24/7

12:36

but this can also be seen as my failure to not build a decent meat-wot consisting only of sane people

12:37

failure to build*

12:37

billymg: i dun recall, where ? south america ?

12:38

costa rica, on the pacific coast side

12:38

a

12:40

incidentally the muzzles thing is double-edged sword -- i expect the 'face recognition camera' folx are pissing themselves

12:41

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014436 << I think this was originally in the context of a discussion of the ever expanding size of the blockchain, or the growing number of lost coins, or something like that. So yes, similar to sun running out of hydrogen.

12:41

Logged on 2020-06-08 12:32:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014409 << rather like idea of 'restart the sun periodically' imho. while it remains a decentralized system, will behave moar like a force of nature than anyffin within anyone's power to 'restart'.

12:41

thimbronion: indeed similar. and incidentally much sooner than 'fragocalypse' .

12:41

Logged on 2020-05-25 10:13:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-25#1013080 << depends what means 'bitcoin'. the timestamp counter overflows in 2038, for instance.

12:46

'size of chain' is red herring, even nao you can buy hdd (well, if yer in civilization, rather than jungle..) that will hold next 100+yr of blox

12:51

this, incidentally, is the major underpinning of my 'there aint an outside' -- and not 'cia will shoot you in panama' (tho the ghosts of noriega's men will nod.) the fact that you can't make a 16TB hdd outta jaguar skins.

12:52

( and can't make transatlantic fiber outta vines, either )

12:59

!w poll

12:59

Polling 11 nodes...

12:59

205.134.172.26:8333 : Could not connect!

12:59

108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.035s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741 (Operator: asciilifeform)

12:59

205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741 (Operator: asciilifeform)

12:59

205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.166s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.205s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.221s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.341s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.561s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633741

12:59

188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.383s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=633742

13:02

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014390 << hm , i thought pythonism were verboten in diana's reich.

13:02

Logged on 2020-06-08 02:53:57 feedbot: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/yrc-re-genesis-and-patch-for-smooth-scrolling-and-other-fixes/ << Fixpoint -- yrc re-genesis and patch for smooth scrolling and other fixes

13:02

i guess only when asciilifeform wrote it.

13:03

don't call her names not to her face!!!11

13:03

jurov: incidentally notice that i dun have a voice filter, diana, obama, etc. could 'show face' whenever they like.

13:04

iirc the only fella i muted was vexual , for brazen spam

~ 15 minutes ~

13:19

asciilifeform: re: available items, bandwidth, etc. - definitely true. and when can be had, always at significantly higher cost

13:20

billymg: i haven't been to cr; but did participate in all kindsa gymnastics to get iron to (and in the end, from) piz in BingoBoingostan. so can speak about cost.

13:20

and, note, this was when borders were open, planes -- flying, iron -- freely sold in usa, etc

13:22

re bw -- same bw costs roughly 10x less here than did in BingoBoingostan . (that is, same numerically per spec sheet. the 1 here also doesn't fall down after 5min of 50 $ ddos , for instance.. )

13:22

asciilifeform: i think there might be a common element between hassids (and amish, etc.) carrying on unmolested, and e.g. alf not being gassed -- members of the herd are not dropping out of school/office life to go join

↖ ↖

13:23

billymg: 'molestation' is typically result of some kinda roi calculation, on some level. as in (at least the early phase) of 1500s witchcraft trials.

13:23

asciilifeform: yes, fully believe it's an roi calculation

13:23

that is, if speaking of 'bullet with yer name on it' rather than 'shrapnel addressed to 'occupant''.

13:24

asciilifeform: same situation here for bandwidth, about 10x

13:25

some people live in arctic circle, where bag of cement costs 20x what costs on mainland. they find it worthwhile, for whatever reason (petro prospectors, hermits, whoever.) again personal taste.

13:25

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-08#1014481 << not sure if that's what i'm referring to, though familiar with concept

13:25

Logged on 2020-06-08 13:23:35 asciilifeform: that is, if speaking of 'bullet with yer name on it' rather than 'shrapnel addressed to 'occupant''.

13:26

but i mean, if john/jane doe all started dropping out of usg.college to go live amish lifestyle, then they'd suddenly start getting attention

13:27

likewise if masses all decided to tmsr (to the best of their ability)

13:28

billymg: hassids, amish, gypsies, etc. all have traditional immunity to this problem , via hostility to outsiders

13:28

as does (did) tmsr

13:28

billymg: ditto ye olde tmsr aha

13:28

( what 'masses' to do there? in fact bar raised until remained null set.. )

13:29

asciilifeform: perhaps nothing, but just no longer doing what they are supposed to (taking out loans and shopping, warming office seat, etc.)

13:29

this dun require 'joining the partizans' tho

13:30

asciilifeform for instance has been happily not-taking-loans for 20y. w/out asking anyone for permission..

13:30

if one or two cows wander off the farm, farmer might not notice, or care. if half do, goes to check where they went

13:30

billymg: observe also that if cow missing, can 100% be sure that it went to another farm (or meat market.)

13:30

asciilifeform: aha

13:30

in ye olde days of serfdom, serf-catchers did not have to search all of europe, they searched neighbouring estates.

13:34

asciilifeform: that's a good point, serfs need livelihood, and only livelihood on offer is from other allies anyway

13:36

but with the closed loop groups (amish, etc.), aren't they fully "opted out" of the sanctioned economy?

13:37

billymg: the ~truly~ closed loop folx are arguably 'dark matter' from my pov. but re the amish, they're being corroded steadily, already make use of all kindsa industrial tech 'strictly for commerce' nominally

13:38

they might argue that 'not addicted' but the only 100% litmus for this is 'cold turkey'

13:42

meanwhile, a wholly-unrelated adaism .

13:44

asciilifeform: man, black pill indeed

13:46

billymg: it may be possible for 'deracinated moderns' to copy, to some extent, the 'technology' of the closed-loop folx, but historically poor track record of this afaik.

13:48

the 1 apparently solid fact (and mp never tired of restating it in various forms) is that it can't be organized around 'roi' / rational advantage .

13:49

asciilifeform: not sure i follow, what means "copy 'technology' of closed-loop folx"?

13:49

e.g. the ru 'old believers' are still around. and found as far as uruguay. but they took centuries to make selves 100% immiscible w/ heathen civ. -- folx wake up at 4 in the morning, 2h of prayer, then again matins, then vespers...

13:50

billymg: copy in the sense of 100% separation from dependence on the collapsing mainstream.

13:50

ah, gotcha

13:51

but with own chip fabs, and fiber optic cable? or just the separation part?

13:51

just the separation. the q of 'how can old believers in jungle make own h-bomb' i'ma leave to sf writers.

13:54

feedbot

http://thimbron.com/2020/06/the-voice-of-trilema/ << Thimbron -- The Voice of Trilema

13:54

in 1970s, a sov. expedition to taiga found some uncontacted old believers. could barely have conversation, spoke 1600s dialect. they had a preserved brass kettle.

13:55

is possible to take with you, sometimes, selected pieces of the civ you left behind. and make'em last.

13:55

this possib. the least 'black' pov i can think of re subj.

13:56