14:12 |
feedbot |
http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3742 << Loper OS -- "Finite Field Arithmetic." Chapter 21A-Bis: Fix for Lethal Flaw in Ch.15's Greatest Common Divisor. |
| |
~ 46 minutes ~ |
14:58 |
asciilifeform |
^ full postmortem and cure for this item . |
14:58 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-05-07 15:14:35 asciilifeform: in other noose, when testing Ext.GCD against the regular ch.15 kind, found a catastrophic bug in... the latter. |
| |
~ 3 hours 37 minutes ~ |
18:35 |
asciilifeform |
!w poll |
18:35 |
watchglass |
Polling 11 nodes... |
18:35 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.088s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.098s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
18:35 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
18:35 |
watchglass |
208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.106s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.221s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.341s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.306s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 |
18:35 |
watchglass |
192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.) |
18:35 |
watchglass |
103.36.92.112:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.) |
| |
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~ |
20:05 |
BingoBoingo |
Less than 24 hours till halving if block production rate holds steady |
20:06 |
asciilifeform |
ha |
20:06 |
asciilifeform |
iirc last coupla these had ~0 visible to naked eye effect |
| |
~ 29 minutes ~ |
20:36 |
Vexual |
so we're not watching bitcoinity for cool happening gifs? |
20:36 |
asciilifeform |
bitcoinity ? |
20:37 |
Vexual |
price chart website, they add gifs when all time high |
20:37 |
* |
asciilifeform didn't give half a shit 10y ago, and doesn't now |
20:39 |
asciilifeform |
all that interests asciilifeform re subj is the 'macroscopic'; i.e. the obv fact that exch rate aint gonna be 1e8 $ per suddenly. cuz the thing is controlled via the usual means . |
20:39 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-05-05 19:56:14 asciilifeform: it worx because there's a neverending supply of a) dumb shits who see 'paper gold' as == to actual b) greedy shits who want 'leverage' |
20:39 |
asciilifeform |
the 'omg111 it moved by 3%' i'ma leave to the speculator vermin |
20:40 |
asciilifeform |
they -- can care, being paid to. |
20:43 |
Vexual |
I'd forgotten block reward was halving |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: these dun happen by surprise, y'know |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000); |
| |
↖ |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
init was 50. |
20:46 |
Vexual |
how many unspent 50's? |
20:46 |
asciilifeform |
'exercise for reader' |
20:46 |
asciilifeform |
been a while since i bothered to sum'em |
20:47 |
* |
asciilifeform ftr doesn't buy into the old 'unspent for Y yrs means keyz surely lost!11' mythology |
20:48 |
asciilifeform |
i have coin from '11 i haven't spent. what of it. |
20:48 |
Vexual |
wuflu must've sent a few coins to the deep |
20:48 |
asciilifeform |
what reason to think this ? |
20:49 |
Vexual |
statistically speaking. might have |
20:49 |
Vexual |
not must have |
20:49 |
asciilifeform |
'statistically speaking' my arse could fall through the floor. |
20:49 |
asciilifeform |
right |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: helps to also remember that what can be misplaced, can also be found . |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
the 'finds' have sometimes visible effect. the losses (being unpublic) do not . |
20:51 |
Vexual |
visible and real obviously not the same |
20:52 |
Vexual |
block reward halving effects are not for the visible eye as you said |
20:54 |
asciilifeform |
re effect of 'finds'. |
20:54 |
asciilifeform |
see also the well-known effect of the spanish new world gold on spain in 16th c. |
20:55 |
Vexual |
dafaq is bitcoinp? |
20:56 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: old gedankenexperiment of mine. a hypothetical bitcoin noad which forks off if coins thought to be shitoshi's are ever spent. |
20:56 |
asciilifeform |
not partic. relevant per se to this thrd. |
20:57 |
asciilifeform |
re effects of 'losing' and 'finding', given that the exch rates are a figment of collective psychosis, the 'visibility' in principle matters. |
20:57 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-05-05 20:03:43 asciilifeform: ( there is no contradiction here, incidentally -- the paper serves both to inflate the perceived value, and to depress, when necessary . the latter is very easy to do w/ a value that is artificial to begin with) |
20:57 |
Vexual |
I'll read that later. |
21:03 |
Vexual |
exchange rate aside, at some point fees will be greater than block reward |
21:03 |
asciilifeform |
think of it this way -- if a nuke sub transporting 500 tonnes of au goes down w/ melted reactor, making the metal unrecoverable for 1e4 yrs, not only will you an' i not likely hear about it, but it will have 0 detectable effect on 'market'. the folx printing the 'paper gold' will carry on printing, the ones buying bars, will end up with tungsten cores a little more often, is all |
21:04 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: fees? maybe 20y from nao |
21:04 |
Vexual |
well it's already happened on occassion |
21:05 |
Vexual |
dya think satoshi would change the halving algo with time machine? |
21:05 |
asciilifeform |
waiwat |
21:05 |
Vexual |
some fuck sent 200 coin fee once i think i remember |
21:05 |
asciilifeform |
and some unknown number of similar idjits dropped their privkeys into /dev/null , what of it |
21:06 |
Vexual |
just a bit of trivia |
21:06 |
Vexual |
i think the mine might've even returned it, |
21:06 |
Vexual |
go figure |
21:07 |
asciilifeform |
it was, what, 8x the standard block reward at the time ? possib. considered it worth the 'pr' |
21:08 |
mats |
who knows if fees can even support mining without a block subsidy |
21:08 |
asciilifeform |
ohai mats. wb. |
21:08 |
asciilifeform |
mats: what means 'support mining' ? |
21:08 |
mats |
the growth in hash rate recently has been pedestrian compared to previous years |
21:09 |
asciilifeform |
mining will still happen. |
21:10 |
asciilifeform |
whether is eats gigawatts or terawatts , yes, depends on reward. but worked ok when it summed to kilowatts. |
21:10 |
mats |
presumably the miners will eventually try a new chain when this one is juiced |
21:10 |
asciilifeform |
afaik they already 'try chains' |
21:10 |
Vexual |
chains been pretty fuckin solid so far |
21:10 |
asciilifeform |
what's that mean ? |
21:11 |
Vexual |
there has been one chain since inception |
21:11 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: didja sleep through the '17-'18 fork warz or wat |
21:11 |
Vexual |
mustve |
21:12 |
asciilifeform |
tsk. |
21:12 |
Vexual |
look, the shits still working, if that doesn't amaze you more than the imaginary coal fire that runs the mines, fuck me |
21:13 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: what would count to you as 'stopped working' ? |
21:13 |
Vexual |
can you imagine sanding next to that? |
21:13 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. has 'gopher' 'stopped working' ? |
21:13 |
Vexual |
god question |
21:13 |
asciilifeform |
i used it not long ago |
21:13 |
Vexual |
let me think on it |
21:14 |
asciilifeform |
by some defs, it will still 'work' in 3000 a.d. by others, 'never worked'... |
| |
↖ |
21:14 |
Vexual |
oh shit... |
21:15 |
Vexual |
what's the block reward in 3000? goes to 0 right? |
21:16 |
asciilifeform |
do the maffs eh |
21:17 |
asciilifeform |
not esp. interesting q tho, block counter is 32bit lol |
21:17 |
Vexual |
I don't remember it halving indefinitely. |
21:18 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-10#1011535 |
21:18 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-05-10 20:45:21 asciilifeform: nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000); |
21:18 |
Vexual |
an aside |
21:18 |
asciilifeform |
naturally it can't half if already 0 eh |
21:18 |
mats |
they havent made a serious effort since bcash |
21:19 |
asciilifeform |
50*100000000 is 33bit long. |
21:19 |
asciilifeform |
that's 33 'halvings' from '09 to fin. |
21:19 |
asciilifeform |
(i.e. to 0) |
21:20 |
asciilifeform |
mats: i admit that after the 1st btc giveaway (aka 'bcash') i tuned out, 0 of the later attempts afaik were even worth the evening to set up nodes for to milk'em |
21:21 |
Vexual |
presumable theres still unmilked things I haven't heard of |
21:21 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: some folx walk train stations to pick up loose change, too |
21:21 |
asciilifeform |
it's, i imagine, a living, for some |
21:22 |
mats |
the halving is a precarious time for holders |
21:23 |
asciilifeform |
why? |
21:23 |
asciilifeform |
i srsly dun recall ~anyffin interesting directly attributable to any of the prev. halvings. |
21:23 |
Vexual |
halvings mark time tho |
21:24 |
asciilifeform |
motion of moon also marks time, lol, what of it |
21:24 |
Vexual |
it's interesting, like the moon |
21:24 |
mats |
miner economics are challenged, their income collapses while operational costs are unchanged |
21:24 |
asciilifeform |
mats: what's it to holder tho ? |
21:25 |
asciilifeform |
if 9 of 10 miners goes to mars and doesn't come back, i won't notice |
21:25 |
mats |
if they turn off enough hash it'll ruin network usability for hours or weeks |
21:25 |
asciilifeform |
scarcely anyone actually uses it tho |
21:26 |
asciilifeform |
so oughta have said 'txers', rather than 'holders' |
21:26 |
asciilifeform |
holders ~don't tx. |
21:26 |
asciilifeform |
i for instance send a tx maybe erry other yr. |
21:28 |
asciilifeform |
re miners off -- not clear to me what, other than proverbial nuke war, would actually give you suddenly 'month of unusable' |
21:28 |
asciilifeform |
say hash rate drops 2x. so what, 20min per block instead of 10, until next adjust. |
21:28 |
shinohai |
Miners switch off, diff falls, can use fpga's again :D |
21:29 |
asciilifeform |
shinohai: use old pentium again!1111 |
21:29 |
* |
asciilifeform won't complain... |
21:32 |
* |
shinohai wouldn't either ... |
21:33 |
asciilifeform |
it's entertaining, really, all these imaginary 'problems' that go away after 10sec of arithmetic |
21:33 |
asciilifeform |
yet folx studiously avoid thinking about the actual ones. cuz too depressing, i suppose |
21:33 |
mats |
i'm thinking about what happened to atc |
21:33 |
mats |
i'm sure you remember that |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
mats: what would have to happen to turn btc into atc, lol |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
asteroid ? |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
a pill for sha1, i suppose, would do it |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
*sha2 |
| |
↖ |
21:34 |
mats |
miner cartel tries to pump a new chain and 99% of current btc mining quits |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
99% quits, we're back to, when, 2014 ? |
21:35 |
asciilifeform |
btc worked a++, far as i'm concerned, in '14. |
21:35 |
asciilifeform |
certainly not 'atc it in garage' level. |
21:35 |
asciilifeform |
the variant of mass suicide by miners is only interesting to the suiciders |
21:37 |
* |
asciilifeform suspects that the 'bcash' incident put even the dumbest miners off the taste of 'pump new chain' for a good while, if not permanently |
21:37 |
mats |
frankly i thought losing the first billion dollars wouldve done it, but then they went in for more |
21:38 |
asciilifeform |
afaik you'd need a genuine cryptocalypse, i.e. hard break in the algos, for this scenario |
21:38 |
asciilifeform |
mats: could be diff. set of 'theys' |
21:38 |
asciilifeform |
impossible to say from my chair |
21:39 |
asciilifeform |
that's the thing, miners -- disposable, like indiv. bees in hive. |
21:41 |
mats |
who knows |
21:41 |
mats |
in other current events, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tech-trump-idUSKBN22M0D0 |
21:42 |
asciilifeform |
mats: iirc even ibm's ppc factory in ny state sold to china some time in last coupla yrs |
21:42 |
asciilifeform |
meanwhile. |
21:42 |
BingoBoingo |
By this time next year US wages will probably be competitive with Asia even if the work ethic isn't |
21:42 |
asciilifeform |
lulzy 'maga' tho. |
21:43 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: if rents also on par w/ asia, who'll notice |
21:43 |
BingoBoingo |
Money printer goes Brrrrrrr |
21:43 |
asciilifeform |
surely. |
21:45 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: whole thing is lulzy. if i hadn't caught the plague personally, might've hardly noticed it existed. |
21:45 |
asciilifeform |
disappointing 'apocalypse', would like money back!11 |
21:46 |
shinohai |
Be patient and wait for the murder hornets to propagate in greater numbers. |
21:47 |
BingoBoingo |
lol, in updates to local news http://mvdstandard.net/2020/05/anti-drug-brigade-headquarters-hit-by-molotov-bomb/#comment-45 << more serious bomb apparently than initial "molotov" designation suggested |
21:47 |
feedbot |
http://mvdstandard.net/2020/05/mides-audit-shows-probably-fraud-on-the-part-of-local-ngos-more-than-9-million-usd-in-diverted-funds/ << The Montevideo Standard -- MIDES Audit Shows Probably Fraud On The Part Of Local NGOs, More Than 9 Million USD In Diverted Funds |
21:48 |
asciilifeform |
shinohai: lol, waited for those since '98 |
21:48 |
BingoBoingo |
One local rag is reporting the possibility of using alpaca anti-bodies as an uncommon cold treatment |
21:49 |
* |
BingoBoingo prepping to hop on cam in a bit |
21:49 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: i imagine analogous to the folx in ru pushing (ancient stockpile of) 'anti-flu' pharma as ditto |
21:49 |
asciilifeform |
who has what old garbage lying around, will push -- that. |
21:49 |
mats |
i can only imagine the fireworks if usg sanctions biz partners of huawei like tsmc |
21:49 |
asciilifeform |
mats: wai would it sanction taiwan co.? |
21:50 |
asciilifeform |
as if it somehow weren't usg's very own 'unsinkable carrier'(tm) |
21:50 |
mats |
dunno, big orange gets dumb ideas in his head and does something stupid |
21:50 |
mats |
like allegedly threatening the us ksa security agreement over shale |
21:50 |
asciilifeform |
mats: only thing poor fella 'does from own head' involve golf |
21:50 |
asciilifeform |
errything else -- perma-bureaucracy |
21:51 |
asciilifeform |
the folx who 'o |
21:51 |
asciilifeform |
'omfg, president X did xyz' remind me of teenage gurlz who think their 'beloved actor' ~is~ the $character he plays |
21:52 |
asciilifeform |
last us prez who 'tried to do from own head' afaik was kennedy. |
21:52 |
asciilifeform |
and that went to the obv place. |
21:53 |
mats |
ah yes the famous lizard hitler hypothesis |
21:53 |
asciilifeform |
doesn't even req. lizard |
21:54 |
asciilifeform |
0 lizard in ye olde su, but do you think it was marasmatic brezhnev who e.g. started afgan war ? |
21:55 |
mats |
the ussr is a mystery to me |
21:56 |
asciilifeform |
wasn't so diff from current day usa. just diff set of animated cadavers 'in charge' |
21:56 |
mats |
anyway, im curious about it like you mightve been about a hypothetical invasion of crimea |
21:56 |
mats |
even though i wasnt born in tw |
21:56 |
asciilifeform |
invaded, what, 5x, since the turks? i imagine will be again at some pt. it's primo real estate. |
21:57 |
asciilifeform |
germans offed, what, 98% of sevastopol . |
21:58 |
asciilifeform |
re tw -- nfi. the 1 fella i knew in meatspace from there, i asked 'so, ready to fight for motherland?' -- looked at me like i had cock instead of nose. |
21:58 |
asciilifeform |
'fight? we have 'dun shot,iknow seekrits' rehearsed daily' |
21:58 |
mats |
their military is definitionally unready |
21:59 |
asciilifeform |
what would it mean for island to 'be ready' |
21:59 |
mats |
like so much as 80% manning in personnel slots |
21:59 |
asciilifeform |
approx on par w/ u.s. army's, last i knew, % |
22:00 |
asciilifeform |
(what with'em 'double counting' national guard units as 'army' ) |
22:00 |
mats |
lots of pomp and fanfare about american tanks and jets going to taipei late last year, but no mention how they'll rust in a hole somewhere and even odds of being turned on |
22:01 |
asciilifeform |
supposing even shipped, rather than 'money moved, tanks ???' |
22:01 |
asciilifeform |
last i knew 0 tanks produced in usa since '12 |
22:01 |
mats |
arms are generally about tribute but this time is particularly egregious now that conscription is being wound down |
22:01 |
asciilifeform |
oh was it ? |
22:01 |
* |
asciilifeform had nfi |
22:01 |
asciilifeform |
afaik south kr still conscripts |
22:02 |
mats |
theyve abandoned all pretense to military readiness |
22:02 |
mats |
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/15/china-threat-invasion-conscription-taiwans-military-is-a-hollow-shell |
22:02 |
asciilifeform |
догоним и перегоним америку (tm)(r) |
22:03 |
mats |
all the more confusing considering separatist interests |
22:03 |
asciilifeform |
it aint clear to me what the point was (other than graft) of maintaining the pretense of 'ready against china' |
22:03 |
mats |
propping up the taipei govt, for starters |
22:03 |
asciilifeform |
the chinese could take tw if armed with bows & arrows, dun matter what on other end |
22:04 |
asciilifeform |
( 'why' is separate q ) |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
on asciilifeform's home world we had the joke, 'mao will arm china with... stools and radios' 'stool to stand on, radio to say when to jump from it' |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
(notion being, mega-earthquake) |
22:05 |
mats |
on a similar note, theyre shuttering existing (and under construction) nuclear reactors, in favor of... more natural gas shipments from beijing |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
so similar to eu |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
w/ china in role of usa |
22:06 |
asciilifeform |
i suppose they will at some pt sign a formal surrender, like hk |
22:06 |
asciilifeform |
and the price of hard drives won't even change.. |
22:07 |
* |
Vexual still awaits alf's journey to the east |
22:07 |
Vexual |
alf in hk |
22:07 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: dafuq did asciilifeform lose in the east |
22:07 |
Vexual |
dev money? idk |
22:07 |
asciilifeform |
i dun recall losing anyffing there.. |
22:08 |
asciilifeform |
so to go and look for. |
22:08 |
asciilifeform |
iirc even mp didn't bother, and he goes to erry possible shithole for religious reasons |
22:08 |
Vexual |
ah, i see |
22:08 |
Vexual |
religious? |
22:08 |
asciilifeform |
y'know, his religion, w/ self in role of muhamed |
22:09 |
Vexual |
I hadn't made that connection |
22:11 |
Vexual |
having a wee vodka alf? |
22:11 |
asciilifeform |
lolno, why |
22:11 |
Vexual |
you're more vibrant than usual |
22:11 |
asciilifeform |
writing ch20b just nao |
22:11 |
Vexual |
15 rework mustve been a work |
22:12 |
asciilifeform |
took ~4d |
22:13 |
Vexual |
futher fuel for the vodka assumtion |
22:13 |
asciilifeform |
lolk |
22:13 |
asciilifeform |
believe or not, 0 vodka involved in 15 either |
22:13 |
Vexual |
at least not the second iteration |
22:14 |
Vexual |
i'm joking. I can't parse ch1 |
22:15 |
asciilifeform |
i've yet to hear of anybody actually attempting ch1 an' then choking,but there's always a 1st |
22:16 |
Vexual |
not attempting is a valid method |
22:16 |
asciilifeform |
i aint aboutta insist |
22:16 |
asciilifeform |
if you dun think you have any biz reading these, you likely dont |
22:16 |
Vexual |
I should prolly dl all lessons now |
22:17 |
asciilifeform |
won't hurt |
22:17 |
Vexual |
although alf seems particularly insusceptible to webrot |
22:17 |
* |
asciilifeform intends to offer'em on dead tree at some pt |
22:18 |
Vexual |
`nubbins to print? |
22:18 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
22:18 |
asciilifeform |
print costs pennies |
22:18 |
Vexual |
not even joking |
22:18 |
asciilifeform |
less than e.g. pcb |
22:18 |
* |
asciilifeform routinely has apalling crud printed & hardbound , just to take to bed |
22:19 |
asciilifeform |
if i had a stove, could prolly stoke it for a winter or 2 with just these |
22:20 |
asciilifeform |
prolly w/ just the ffa-related junk , thinking about it. |
22:20 |
* |
Vexual finds it stanglely appalling alf don't have a fire |
22:20 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: fireplaces aint standard equip here |
22:20 |
asciilifeform |
matchstick, recall, 'houses' |
22:21 |
asciilifeform |
some folx have'em (1970s and prior construction) |
22:22 |
* |
asciilifeform in conv. w/ brother : he: 'book out yet?' 'mine? nope' 'no, not yours. the chinese fellow's' 'which fellow' 'the 1 who is making career from yer www. you haven't found him just yet?' |
22:23 |
Vexual |
ch1 prolly more parsable than stan brother convo |
22:24 |
asciilifeform |
whats yer beef w/ch1 anyway ? 'too many letters'(tm)(r) ? |
22:25 |
Vexual |
just haven't had a good look yet |
22:25 |
asciilifeform |
wb ben_vulpes |
22:25 |
Vexual |
ayo ben |
22:25 |
ben_vulpes |
i am unpredictably woefully behind on logs |
22:25 |
ben_vulpes |
what is mp's "foundation mess"? |
22:25 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: i can't speak for others, but my logs are pretty light |
22:26 |
* |
ben_vulpes regrets the question immediately |
22:26 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: i have nfi specifically. i imagine he expects some sorta instrument of surrender from jurov |
22:26 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: i suspect jurov also 'regretted question', lol |
22:26 |
ben_vulpes |
'no ragrats', as we said when i was a bairn. |
22:27 |
Vexual |
hows the wee bairns? |
22:28 |
ben_vulpes |
i have a somewhat more prosaic question; i gather from questioning others in my wot that i should probably not consider mixing microcontrollers and NICs if i want something working in human time. asciilifeform; have ye commentary or insight to shed? |
22:28 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: 'beefy' micros tend to come w/ internal nics |
22:28 |
asciilifeform |
pic32mz for instance. |
22:29 |
asciilifeform |
just needs pins brought out to transformer & jack |
22:29 |
asciilifeform |
afaik they dun have a Gb/s variant just nao. but marvell made 'pogo', did |
22:29 |
asciilifeform |
never was able to source the latter in bobbins tho |
22:30 |
asciilifeform |
never found 1 that didn't rely on dma tho, in any micro variant |
22:31 |
Vexual |
set the problem in clear human form if you please |
22:31 |
asciilifeform |
( at least, unlike the pc crapola, they do publish their init specs , tho..) |
22:31 |
ben_vulpes |
frankly i'm so behind the curve on this aspect of my education that i think i'm better off snipping complexity aggressively and reintroducing it selectively as i find compelling cases |
22:31 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: are you even 100% certain that you need ethernet ? |
22:31 |
ben_vulpes |
asciilifeform: no! |
22:32 |
ben_vulpes |
Vexual: well there's an effector, and i need to get it commands. |
22:32 |
asciilifeform |
wainot e.g. rs485. |
22:32 |
asciilifeform |
or ye olde rs232, a la fg. |
22:33 |
ben_vulpes |
other nodes said 'uart' |
22:33 |
asciilifeform |
there's yer uart. |
22:33 |
asciilifeform |
complete (well, tx) uart... |
22:33 |
ben_vulpes |
naively, "i'm going to have to network them eventually" "dummy, focus on making something first" |
22:34 |
asciilifeform |
make 1st. |
22:34 |
Vexual |
ie, hardware solution |
22:34 |
asciilifeform |
then get bogged down in protocol sads. |
22:35 |
asciilifeform |
could spend fucking ~year implementing e.g. even usb1. i did... |
| |
↖ |
22:35 |
ben_vulpes |
which leads me to my second question for asciilifeform tonight; have you blessed a 'microcontroller board' for use with ada? what remains of my sense of honor from the first republic recoils at the notion of "simply compiling c or rust" for use with the common-or-garden boards on the market. |
22:36 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: i'm partial to pic32 series , cuz simple instr set |
22:36 |
asciilifeform |
have a half-done gnat for one of'em, even |
22:37 |
asciilifeform |
fucking hate, otoh, arm |
22:37 |
asciilifeform |
with, what , 700+ instrs & counting |
22:37 |
asciilifeform |
try an' implement a working arm. |
22:37 |
asciilifeform |
whereas mips fits in e.g. 'ice40' fpga & leaves room. |
22:37 |
asciilifeform |
( this for 'fits in head' + for say , when you can't source the ic anymoar.. ) |
22:38 |
asciilifeform |
before you laff, this ~happend~ to the mc68k aficionados |
22:38 |
asciilifeform |
from 1 of world's most common cpu archs, to 'where do i buy even old one?' |
22:38 |
asciilifeform |
iirc BingoBoingo personally was hit by this |
22:38 |
ben_vulpes |
high level i need something that eats from uart and shits to same (albeit different pins) and that's ~it |
22:39 |
ben_vulpes |
BingoBoingo: also smoked museum pieces generating rsa keys |
22:39 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: crib from fg src then |
22:39 |
asciilifeform |
see earlier link. |
22:39 |
asciilifeform |
thing shits to uart all day, erry day... |
22:39 |
asciilifeform |
gens own baud clock too |
22:40 |
* |
asciilifeform realizes that his handmade proto-FG is possibly the longest contin.-powered piece of gear in his torture room... |
22:40 |
Vexual |
not for sale any more tho |
22:41 |
* |
ben_vulpes should know better. goes to castle alfenstein for advice on running ada on small chips of computronium; leaves with conundrum of 'should ams reorient face and mind and butt towards fpga?' |
22:41 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: the folx who bought up the junkyard still selling , last i knew |
22:41 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: if yer short 1, talk to'em |
22:41 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: depends what yer doing! |
22:42 |
asciilifeform |
if contin. to stay 'silent like partizan', will get shite advice, what can do |
22:42 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: if yer in a dire hurry, ave1's gnat builds a raw-mips gcc w/ 1 ln of config change |
22:42 |
ben_vulpes |
need to eat some amount of serial data defining a pair of coords and then shit those coords out on another serial port; it's nigh trivial. would like, however, to use this as an autodidactic and toolchain prototyping exercise for more devices in the same vein. |
22:43 |
asciilifeform |
you'll have to sit down w/ the datashit for yer chip and make defs of 'volatiles' for the particular registers etc tho |
22:43 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: if that -- than straight to fpga. |
22:43 |
asciilifeform |
is what e.g. FG does. |
22:43 |
Vexual |
how far texas to dc? |
22:43 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: ice40 demo for instance |
| |
↖ |
22:44 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: ~20 $ board . |
22:44 |
asciilifeform |
fits small cpu. and maybe 35 FG's... |
22:45 |
ben_vulpes |
heh this is ultimate 'rtos' |
22:45 |
asciilifeform |
open ('opensores') toolchain, unlike xilinx's |
22:45 |
asciilifeform |
iirc demands py3, but was the only headache there |
22:45 |
asciilifeform |
indeed, it dun get anymore 'realtime' |
22:46 |
asciilifeform |
can get deterministic delays pin to pin measured in nsec |
22:47 |
ben_vulpes |
how would you start analyzing tradeoff of 'high level lang' a la ada vs i don't even know what the upside to biting off fpga toolchain is |
22:47 |
asciilifeform |
there's an obv upside to fpga |
22:47 |
Vexual |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ufgsarH4bk |
22:47 |
asciilifeform |
-- that it aint a von neumann comp, no 'interrupts', 'crashes' |
22:47 |
asciilifeform |
it either worx , approx., or doesn't |
22:48 |
asciilifeform |
for 'box takes N bits, gives M other bits, in S millisec, in 30loc' it's straight to fpga. |
22:49 |
ben_vulpes |
determinism and fistinhead the largest wins from fpga? |
22:49 |
asciilifeform |
indeed |
22:49 |
asciilifeform |
that + that you're cured of vendor dependence, in principle can go to tmsc an' get it siliconized, nao or in 2030 |
22:49 |
asciilifeform |
and it'll run |
22:50 |
asciilifeform |
whether you can get away w/ fpgaism depends intimately on what yer thing needs to do to those N bits to make those M |
22:50 |
asciilifeform |
if it's a coupla shifts, adds, xor's -- yes. if it's rsa, prolly not |
22:51 |
asciilifeform |
( i couldn't find fpga that'd hold a 4096b barrel shifter for any amt of money ) |
| |
↖ |
22:51 |
asciilifeform |
and prices go from penny to 100k$+ |
22:51 |
ben_vulpes |
thorny problem |
22:51 |
asciilifeform |
depends on # of gates |
22:51 |
Vexual |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ |
22:51 |
ben_vulpes |
in what situations do 'microcontrollers' win? |
22:52 |
ben_vulpes |
or put another way, what advantages do they have over fpga work? |
22:52 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: when you have existing coad for conventional-style comp, for instance |
22:52 |
asciilifeform |
e.g. ffa |
22:52 |
asciilifeform |
when you dun care how many nsec from pin to pin |
22:53 |
asciilifeform |
when you want item to cost 10cents rather than 10bux |
22:53 |
asciilifeform |
(micros are vastly cheaper per 'horse') |
22:53 |
asciilifeform |
when you want to plant linux on the box |
22:53 |
asciilifeform |
most folx take micro over fpga, even when it dun make logical sense |
22:53 |
asciilifeform |
lotsa 'programmer' types are phobic of circuit design |
22:53 |
asciilifeform |
(even when req's 0 solder) |
22:54 |
asciilifeform |
i've found flashlights w/ 8bit micros in'em. |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
22:54 |
ben_vulpes |
it's all just maffs, i dun understand the hesitation |
22:54 |
Vexual |
time not important |
22:55 |
asciilifeform |
well, if yer running at multiple Mhz, then have to care re gate delays, for instance |
22:55 |
ben_vulpes |
i'm going to focus on the effector controller for now |
22:55 |
asciilifeform |
have to open (gasp) a b00k, and find outwhat 'domain crossing' is. and so on |
22:55 |
Vexual |
dead tree ftw |
22:57 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: have a taste. |
22:58 |
ben_vulpes |
i dunno that i'm necessarily phobic of 'circuit design', but i am certainly wary of getting ratholed in technological duck cunts. one of the compelling ideologies from the first republic was 'tear their arms off and beat them to death with 'em' |
22:58 |
ben_vulpes |
there's no chip getting made sans a windows toolchain, neh? attempting else is tilting |
22:58 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: 1 of the appeals is that's it's a shallow hole. |
22:58 |
asciilifeform |
i've made 0 chip, but have fpgaisms on desk right nao w/ 0 winblowz in the loop anywhere. |
22:58 |
ben_vulpes |
you say 'shallow hole' in one breath and 'book and domain crossing' in another |
22:59 |
Vexual |
my word you cunts clack fast |
22:59 |
Vexual |
smokin keyboards is it wot |
23:00 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: e.g. FG's controller (albeit w/ evil turdware toolchain for linux, then, for xilinx) from mp's prodding to production in <8wks |
23:00 |
asciilifeform |
there's ~0 concept of 'debug' tho, in fpgaism. you can simulate, or prod the chip w/ oscope, but very little in between |
23:00 |
asciilifeform |
so most of work is to actually think when you write. |
23:01 |
ben_vulpes |
yes yes |
23:01 |
ben_vulpes |
asciilifeform: how much had you in your head before? |
23:01 |
asciilifeform |
the serpent demo is good intro, there is link re what the c & ada proggies looked like, and then how it was simmed, and inputs/outputs |
23:01 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: 0 |
23:01 |
ben_vulpes |
nfw |
23:01 |
ben_vulpes |
i disberieve |
23:02 |
asciilifeform |
i guess not quite 0, knew what iwanted the thing to do. but presumably you also know for yours |
23:02 |
asciilifeform |
observe that you can simulate w/out buying any physicals |
23:02 |
asciilifeform |
as pictured in linked piece. |
23:03 |
ben_vulpes |
my physicals woes aren't 20 fpga chips, but good to know |
23:03 |
ben_vulpes |
fuuuuuck but open source cad is bad. |
23:04 |
asciilifeform |
right, presumably you already own whatever shits an' eats those signals |
23:04 |
Vexual |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smim2MNvF8 |
23:04 |
ben_vulpes |
right, servo libary grows day by day. |
23:04 |
* |
ben_vulpes hopes to avoid 'silent like partizan', but mustest exercise a skosh of discretion. |
23:05 |
asciilifeform |
this btw is another + of fpgaism. can simulate 'to nanosecond'. for afaik 0 micro is this avail. (tho some vendors offer turdware for $$$) |
23:05 |
ben_vulpes |
notrly a design goal; not shooting for high speed cnc here |
23:06 |
Vexual |
not cnc we get it. what is it? |
23:06 |
asciilifeform |
for e.g. rocket vanes, need within mSec . for pu pit implosion detonator, within 100nsec. (hey it worked in '40s, they had no fpga..) |
23:07 |
ben_vulpes |
and this is why i'm putting in the time to think and ask; i'm still putting bounds on the problems and what tools get me how far along which trajectories. |
23:07 |
asciilifeform |
put, put |
23:07 |
Vexual |
peek. poke |
23:08 |
asciilifeform |
1c of proper bounds is worth megabux of 'let's do!1111' |
23:08 |
ben_vulpes |
http://www.loper-os.org/#selection-65.1-71.83 << fukkin triggered |
23:08 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: you jinxed the selector kludge |
23:09 |
ben_vulpes |
i lost my first-republic-era workstation to precisely "the minute you try `emerge --sync`..." |
23:09 |
asciilifeform |
plox to regen that link |
23:09 |
asciilifeform |
aa |
23:09 |
asciilifeform |
http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3682#selection-65.1-69.13 ? |
23:10 |
ben_vulpes |
http://www.loper-os.org/#selection-65.1-71.83 |
23:10 |
asciilifeform |
got it |
23:10 |
ben_vulpes |
fascinating |
23:10 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: the js kludge loses the link if you click outside of the sel |
23:10 |
ben_vulpes |
just saw same |
23:11 |
ben_vulpes |
fucking www is the penultimate duck cunt. will eat entire humans alive effecting the most trivial shit. |
23:11 |
Vexual |
seriously, i wanna sell benalf kbs. |
23:11 |
asciilifeform |
( mp, of all people, actually 1 time wrote a server-side selector thing , but it dun work w/ indiv. lines of coad in <pre>... so i cant use.. ) |
| |
↖ |
23:11 |
ben_vulpes |
Vexual: "ergodox ez" |
23:11 |
Vexual |
really? |
23:11 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: 'model f' |
23:11 |
Vexual |
fuck that |
23:11 |
* |
Vexual goes to lok |
23:11 |
ben_vulpes |
i have a reproduction of that on order |
23:12 |
asciilifeform |
ugh the 1 w/out the f keys ? |
23:12 |
asciilifeform |
no ty |
23:12 |
asciilifeform |
i've the proper 122k. |
23:12 |
ben_vulpes |
my generation is poor, we've done this thread to death in the old wankpublic, can skip this time |
23:12 |
asciilifeform |
( sadly can't buy'em anymoar, even heavily beaten ones. and mine i had to not only clean, but... paint, lol ) |
| |
↖ |
23:13 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: dunno, i spend ~100 $. and most of it was for paint. |
23:13 |
asciilifeform |
in particular the conductive anti-rf paint aint cheap |
23:13 |
asciilifeform |
prettysure yer 'ergo' cost > . |
23:13 |
ben_vulpes |
i'll buy time |
23:14 |
asciilifeform |
lolk |
23:14 |
ben_vulpes |
ergo buys me time in pilot seat; without something of this shape i'm done with this line of work in another five years |
23:15 |
asciilifeform |
strangely i never have this prob |
23:15 |
asciilifeform |
lotsa folx for somereason do tho |
23:15 |
ben_vulpes |
i envy you! |
23:15 |
ben_vulpes |
rat is the sole point of pain; maginificently bad after a day of cad |
23:16 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: i bought phf's sphere thing |
23:16 |
asciilifeform |
worx wonderz for 'rat arm' |
23:16 |
ben_vulpes |
"can you open this jar for me lover?" "i mean i can but i really don't want do" "what do you mean?" "well i'm entirely strong enough but the wrist is aflame and i don't need more accrued damage" |
23:16 |
asciilifeform |
subj |
23:16 |
Vexual |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EgB__YratE |
23:16 |
ben_vulpes |
the radius is so large that i found it caused just as much pain |
23:17 |
ben_vulpes |
and the scroll ergonomics are utterly impossible |
23:17 |
ben_vulpes |
drag and drop is pointless too |
23:17 |
asciilifeform |
hm you tried that very ball ? |
23:17 |
asciilifeform |
dunno, worx for me. even for cad. |
23:17 |
asciilifeform |
ifyer wrist is this nuked, maybe try wacom. |
23:17 |
ben_vulpes |
mine, i admit, does not have scroll |
23:17 |
ben_vulpes |
so click, drag |
23:18 |
asciilifeform |
aa i got the 1 phf recced, w/ the roller |
23:18 |
asciilifeform |
smoothest scroll knob ever saw |
23:18 |
ben_vulpes |
somehow missed memo on this |
23:18 |
asciilifeform |
literally like vernier on leica microscope |
23:18 |
asciilifeform |
will almost turn if you blow on it |
23:18 |
ben_vulpes |
oh don't be ridiculous |
23:18 |
asciilifeform |
the ball, similar |
23:18 |
Vexual |
precision is invaluable |
23:19 |
asciilifeform |
mine is set so that 360deg of ball goes across 4 lcd (~8000 pixel) |
23:19 |
Vexual |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3KOowB4k_k |
23:20 |
asciilifeform |
rec to turn off 'mouse acceleration' in x11 |
23:20 |
asciilifeform |
and holyfuq, i cant even picture trying to use 1 of these w/out the wheel |
23:20 |
asciilifeform |
i think fingers would get gangrene |
23:21 |
ben_vulpes |
this was my mistake, yes |
23:21 |
Vexual |
best trackball hasnt been invented yet |
23:21 |
asciilifeform |
try the proper item |
23:21 |
ben_vulpes |
cst meanwhile out of business |
23:21 |
asciilifeform |
no?!! |
23:22 |
* |
asciilifeform takes off hat |
23:22 |
asciilifeform |
i'd bet there's still on shelf somewhere tho. |
23:23 |
ben_vulpes |
"pi engineering" now owns the brand, is out of stock on everything interesting |
23:23 |
asciilifeform |
'ebay' then |
23:23 |
ben_vulpes |
it was a brilliant piece of hardware, simply could not tolerate life without a scroll wheel |
23:24 |
ben_vulpes |
thought placement was remarkably stupid on far side of ball, but asciilifeform attests otherwise? |
23:24 |
asciilifeform |
mine's symmetric |
23:24 |
ben_vulpes |
on far side from torso |
23:24 |
asciilifeform |
the wheel turned w/ index or ring finger |
23:24 |
asciilifeform |
i also like that (unlike in most mice) it doesn't double as 3rd button |
23:24 |
asciilifeform |
(button -- physically separate) |
23:25 |
asciilifeform |
also has 2 jacks for standard (3.5mm mono) pedals |
23:26 |
Vexual |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqBtS6BIP1E |
23:26 |
asciilifeform |
Vexual: i gotta admit, i ~never look at these |
23:27 |
asciilifeform |
( typically i'm on a box w/out audio card, lol ) |
23:27 |
Vexual |
no new info alf |
23:28 |
Vexual |
i'm quite content talking to myself |
23:31 |
ben_vulpes |
@jur |
23:31 |
Vexual |
right? |
23:32 |
ben_vulpes |
jurov: please to report in re "tbf mess"; don't hold luls in abeyance |
23:32 |
* |
ben_vulpes off to mull this fpga knot-cut |
23:32 |
Vexual |
mullaway brother |
23:32 |
asciilifeform |
nighty ben_vulpes |
23:33 |
* |
asciilifeform also off soon |