01:54 |
gregorynyssa |
That hardwick.fi website contains some interesting quotes. |
01:55 |
gregorynyssa |
"On those occasions when I ride the bus, often mine is the only white face on board. I look out the window and see lots of white faces whizzing by in their single-passenger gaswasters." |
01:55 |
gregorynyssa |
"I would imagine many of them would also hypocritically denounce the explicit espousal of racist ideologies. With racism, you don't say it, you just do it." |
01:55 |
gregorynyssa |
"Rock stars live in true whining heaven. They can whine incessantly (check out Bono whining about Third World debt---he thinks starving Africans who borrowed wealth from other nations should not have to pay it back; in the meantime, the RIAA sues 12-year-old honor students if they download Bono's recordings) while still scoring an endless parade of high-quality chicks." |
01:55 |
gregorynyssa |
"I wonder---does Bono think starving Africans have a right to steal his music? Or should they only be free to steal from banks?" |
01:55 |
gregorynyssa |
The writer is good at noticing connections between events. |
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~ 7 hours 54 minutes ~ |
09:50 |
thimbronion |
!s danimal |
09:50 |
lekythion |
5 results |
09:50 |
lekythion |
http://hardwick.fi/ilkka/d8.htm |
09:50 |
lekythion |
Danimal Archive |
09:50 |
lekythion |
...Posts *Danimal* archive, part 8 *Danimal* archive, part 7 *Danimal* archive, part 6 *Danimal* archive, part 5 *Danimal* archive, part 4 *Danimal* archive, part 3 Who is the *Danimal*? *Danimal* archive, part 2 *Danimal* archive... |
09:50 |
lekythion |
http://hardwick.fi/ilkka/16v0830.htm |
09:50 |
lekythion |
Sixteen Volts: Lucky Ilkka |
09:50 |
lekythion |
...*Danimal* Archive, since next to The *Danimal* I am merely a pale shadow, hardly worthy of even mentioning in the same paragraph.The *Danimal*... |
09:50 |
lekythion |
...Detection Crooked Timber *Danimal* *Danimal* Archive Diggdot EconLog... |
09:50 |
lekythion |
All results can be found at http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Z26A |
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~ 25 minutes ~ |
10:16 |
thimbronion |
Seems to be the coiner of the term "sexual marketplace" |
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~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~ |
11:43 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: see also. |
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~ 2 hours 44 minutes ~ |
14:27 |
gregorynyssa |
it looks like Ilkka has some views rather similar to those of Dr Jordan Peterson. |
14:28 |
gregorynyssa |
I only realized after reading part of that ilkka.txt file. |
14:35 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: not familiar w/ peterson |
14:37 |
asciilifeform |
( oblig: various old threads re the finn ) |
14:37 |
gregorynyssa |
so this author is a Finnish person living in Canada? |
14:38 |
gregorynyssa |
what year were these anecdotes from, if I might ask? |
14:38 |
thimbronion |
Peterson is a member of the "Intellectual Dork Web" |
14:39 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: apologies if sowed confusion : danimal was pseudonym of an american, who lived in iirc ohio. he was active on usenet in early 2000s. ilkka kokkarinen, otoh, a finn, emigrated to canada and to this day (afaik) teaches comp sci. was censored twice, once sued and reinstated, 2nd time -- apparently perma-hushed |
14:40 |
asciilifeform |
kokkarinen preserved some of danimal's usenet articles on his (long-gone, but variously mirrored) www . |
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14:42 |
asciilifeform |
had also a book of short pieces, based on his www. was censored. the link on asciilifeform's www which formerly went to kokkarinen's www, currently points to warez ocr txt of that book. |
14:54 |
gregorynyssa |
that is interesting to hear. I wonder why he was sued.. |
14:57 |
gregorynyssa |
I grew up near the border with Ontario, and had visited there quite a few times. |
14:57 |
gregorynyssa |
never studied or worked in Canada, though. |
15:01 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: he wasn't sued -- was sacked from his professorship. sued (successfully) for reinstatement. 2nd time -- nfi. 'made offer that can't refuse'(tm) presumably. |
15:03 |
gregorynyssa |
that makes sense. similar incidents had happened, back at UIUC. |
15:06 |
gregorynyssa |
I am not necessarily in general agreement with all of Mencius Moldbug's views, |
15:06 |
gregorynyssa |
but the man's writings really woke me up to the power wielded by universities. |
15:07 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: fella wasn't particularly consistent. so impossible to 'agree w/ all' |
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15:07 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: he was also, in asciilifeform's pov, a laughable ignoramus re: all sovok-related subjs |
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15:07 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000507 << glad I am not the only one who noticed that. he got several historical details wrong as well. |
15:07 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 15:07:01 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: fella wasn't particularly consistent. so impossible to 'agree w/ all' |
15:08 |
asciilifeform |
(entirely typical in anglo world) |
15:08 |
asciilifeform |
not merely 'several' lol |
15:09 |
asciilifeform |
hamstrung quite effectively by his ineptitude/sloth for study of languages. |
15:09 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000508 << what would you say are the main ways that the English-speaking world mis-understands Russia or the USSR? |
15:09 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 15:07:35 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: he was also, in asciilifeform's pov, a laughable ignoramus re: all sovok-related subjs |
15:10 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: picture if someone were to ask you same q re china ! would 200yrs be enuff to answer ? |
15:13 |
gregorynyssa |
well, I don't think most Chinese understand that much about China. |
15:13 |
gregorynyssa |
19th and 20th century events led to severe discontinuities. |
15:14 |
gregorynyssa |
the study of ancient history and language even now is heavily dependent upon Western Sinologists |
15:15 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: the english historians (and pretentious amateurs) focus almost exclusively on the discontinuities (given as these were events w/ anglo involvement) but entirely forget re the 1000+ (or in case of cn, 5000+) yrs of entirely divergent cultural hist. |
15:17 |
gregorynyssa |
of course there are huge misconceptions, which are partly driven by ideology. not just transient |
15:18 |
gregorynyssa |
political ideology but also subtle philosophical assumptions. |
15:20 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: the most terrifying thing, to a civilization, is a 'pepsi' -- i.e. alternative model that folx might defect to, because in some (sometimes many) respects is superior. then, 'carthago delenda est', the disinfo is slathered on in kilometre-deep strata, and even very idea of honest picture of what took place becomes pipe dream |
15:21 |
gregorynyssa |
that is a good way to describe it. I see it with China as well. one of the worst |
15:21 |
gregorynyssa |
misconceptions lies in the belief that Americans (Canadians) primarily differ from |
15:21 |
gregorynyssa |
the Asian countries in terms of their Individualism, whereas other countries espouse |
15:22 |
gregorynyssa |
a mentality of Collectivism. what ends up being classified as Individual versus Collective |
15:22 |
gregorynyssa |
is completely inconsistent and subjective. |
15:23 |
asciilifeform |
the anglo folx are very fond of these reductions 'to buzzword', but then often very frustrated when it does not give accurate model of reality |
15:25 |
asciilifeform |
the 'individualism' of 'the west' for instance is moar or less a fiction : the 'western civilized' man who needs capital (or simply new auto, without which he cannot, generally, earn bread) is forced to deal w/ banks and borrow at interest. the 'collectivist orc' can borrow from ext. family at 0%. |
15:26 |
asciilifeform |
can give plenty of similar examples. under brand of 'individualism' is pushed instead atomization. where yer 1 on 1 w/ 'institutions' as a lone and generally powerless peon. |
15:34 |
gregorynyssa |
Chinese people are still searching for a style of (private) corporate management which |
15:35 |
gregorynyssa |
fits with their way of thinking. at present most companies are managed in a rather |
15:35 |
gregorynyssa |
haphazard (or else family-centric) manner. |
15:37 |
gregorynyssa |
the most successful corporations have been those run by persons with pro-American views |
15:37 |
gregorynyssa |
and heavily staffed by employees who had gone to college in America. |
15:38 |
gregorynyssa |
cf. Huawei, Baidu, Xiaomi, Alibaba |
15:43 |
gregorynyssa |
I have been trying to learn more about the modernization of Japan |
15:44 |
gregorynyssa |
and how they had managed to invent their own customs in response to modern needs |
15:55 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: japan -- 2 catastrophic modernizations. (1) upper 19th c.: meiji/civil wars. (2) conquest by usa in '45. |
15:57 |
asciilifeform |
( future historians, i suspect, will also include the 'control shot' with which usa finished off jp economically in '91 . ) |
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15:57 |
gregorynyssa |
yep. 1866 and 1945. my intention was to study both of those. |
15:59 |
gregorynyssa |
I am not very good with economics but would love to understand the mysterious events of the late 1980s crisis as well. |
16:01 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: the anglos pulled their usual 'integrate'em into (controlled) 'global market', then kill'em w/ financial machinations' stunt. |
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16:01 |
gregorynyssa |
China sent its best students to Japan during the 1980s for graduate studies, and many of them, if not most, ended up defecting to America. |
16:02 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000544 << so basically, the Yeltsin era? |
16:02 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:01:01 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the anglos pulled their usual 'integrate'em into (controlled) 'global market', then kill'em w/ financial machinations' stunt. |
16:02 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: admittedly asciilifeform not a cn expert. but afaik cn culture suffers from severe 'worship of wealth' as concept; and catastrophically underdeveloped concept of 'motherland' (in sense of 'not to betray') |
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16:03 |
asciilifeform |
ideal victim for offers to defect, esp. from usa at the peak of its hegemony. |
16:03 |
asciilifeform |
most productive su defections were also in late '80s/early '90s. |
16:04 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: and yes entirely same type of trick as perpetrated via fingerpuppets yeltsin & co. in same period. |
16:05 |
asciilifeform |
here's an entertaining cultural anecdote. ever see american film 'home alone' ? |
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16:06 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000548 << this is a major problem, albeit with some nuances. modern Chinese culture is severely lacking in what might be termed the "confessional" or "credal" quality. |
16:06 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:02:28 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: admittedly asciilifeform not a cn expert. but afaik cn culture suffers from severe 'worship of wealth' as concept; and catastrophically underdeveloped concept of 'motherland' (in sense of 'not to betray') |
16:06 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000552 << yep. I remember that film. |
16:06 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:05:37 asciilifeform: here's an entertaining cultural anecdote. ever see american film 'home alone' ? |
16:06 |
asciilifeform |
recently asciilifeform saw a thread , from not many months ago (!) , where buncha idjits in ru ~even today~ think that most folx in usa live like the 'average' family pictured in that film. |
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16:06 |
asciilifeform |
in 1990 when film came out, and ~nobody had been to usa -- was at least vaguely plausible. but picture, today! |
16:07 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000557 << in the Clinton era that life was still possible, provided you had a decent education. |
16:07 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:06:19 asciilifeform: recently asciilifeform saw a thread , from not many months ago (!) , where buncha idjits in ru ~even today~ think that most folx in usa live like the 'average' family pictured in that film. |
16:07 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: 'possible' is a broad word. |
16:08 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: the house which was setting for the film, most recently iirc sold for ~$10m. |
16:08 |
asciilifeform |
(and not merely 'historic' interest, typical price for the surroundings, allegedly) |
16:09 |
asciilifeform |
or how about where in start of film, the father buys 1st class transatlantic tickets for 19 (iirc) people... |
16:09 |
asciilifeform |
but like any good 'stage magic' sleight of hand, audience largely did not parse these details consciously. even the intended, usa audience, for the most part. |
16:10 |
gregorynyssa |
the upper-middle class in the USA (top 10%) still lives pretty well, to my knowledge |
16:10 |
asciilifeform |
'80s-early90s hollywood spew re 'middle class' was being churned out specifically when the oxygen to said class was being actively cut off. |
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16:11 |
gregorynyssa |
intelligent people across the world still immigrate to America in the race to enter |
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16:11 |
gregorynyssa |
that narrow 10%. to have a spacious home and two cars, etc. |
16:12 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000567 << the broader "middle class" is already gone, no question. |
16:12 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:10:36 asciilifeform: '80s-early90s hollywood spew re 'middle class' was being churned out specifically when the oxygen to said class was being actively cut off. |
16:14 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: most of usa's 'spacious home and cars' people are in abject debt , and 1-2 missed paycheques from penury. |
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16:14 |
asciilifeform |
this was not the case 50y ago. |
16:16 |
gregorynyssa |
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ |
16:16 |
asciilifeform |
and naturally can't speak for erryone, but asciilifeform , per Official stats, closer to '5%' than 10 in usa , but does not live in anyffin resembling the setting of film 'home alone' . (but at least not in debt..) |
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16:17 |
gregorynyssa |
I had found the thesis of this article to be quite convincing. ie. that while the broader "middle class" is gone, a 5-10% "mandarin class" possessing comfortable lifestyles has in fact become enshrined. |
16:19 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000572 << wow that sounds terrible, and far worse than the depiction from the Atlantic article. |
16:19 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:14:37 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: most of usa's 'spacious home and cars' people are in abject debt , and 1-2 missed paycheques from penury. |
16:19 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: imho the focus on incomes is organized misdirection. |
16:19 |
asciilifeform |
the actual class determinant is 'income other than from work'. but these naturally not publicly visible. |
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16:21 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000580 << I see what you mean. the "rentier" class which you mentioned in your review of MPEx. |
16:21 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:19:49 asciilifeform: the actual class determinant is 'income other than from work'. but these naturally not publicly visible. |
16:23 |
asciilifeform |
indeed. |
16:24 |
asciilifeform |
so any time you see discussion of 'incomes', as if ALL income were somehow a scalar, and 100k/y from dividends were somehow the same as 100k of programmer -- you know yer dealing with a work of deception. |
16:26 |
asciilifeform |
( this , largely, is the algo whereby rentiers excel at using naive labourers as willing human shields. ) |
16:30 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000568 << see also re mechanics of 'sausage emigration' . |
16:30 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 16:11:35 gregorynyssa: intelligent people across the world still immigrate to America in the race to enter |
16:30 |
snsabot |
(trilema) 2017-06-08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't comment on ro emigres, but with su world there was a lulzy twist : 1st wave (1970s -- largely j000z!11) wrote home, 'i'ma full professor and it rocks, come on over', 2nd wave went, to discover that market -- glut, and hello cab |
16:30 |
snsabot |
(ossasepia) 2019-08-25 asciilifeform: diana_coman: there is added vexation (esp. among emigres & potential emigres) because in initial stages of progression 'from prof to hobo' there is typically a phase of stockholm syndrome, where the 'patient' is convinced (and will loudly proclaim) that he is 'success' |
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~ 47 minutes ~ |
17:18 |
* |
thimbronion would like to see a movie about how immigrants *actually* achieve living standards approaching middle class - for ex. middle aged chinese lady comes to US as "student", earns 300k tax free working in a massage parlour, secures citizenship via artificial insemination from a sperm bank, buys home with cash. |
17:31 |
thimbronion |
The movie should be called "American Dream." |
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~ 35 minutes ~ |
18:07 |
asciilifeform |
thimbronion: the key diff. vs the traditional fantasy, is that to impress modern audience, gotta get the fuck ~out~ of usa w/ that 300 or watever k . otherwise 'the devil's gold turns to leaves.' |
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18:07 |
snsabot |
(ossasepia) 2019-08-25 asciilifeform: re 'folx in usa w/ plenty of money', admittedly i dun hang out with w. buffett . but also met people who ~think~ 'plenty of money' , and as a rule the 'plenty' can evaporate overnight ( break a leg; go a coupla months w/out work ; tax collector decides you didn't pay enuff ; 9000 other 'surprise' and 'poof' . ) |
18:10 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000592 << it seems to me that one of the greatest prob. with America is the especially pronounced dichotomy between neighborhoods which are affordable and those which are safe from gang-violence. |
18:10 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 18:07:36 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the key diff. vs the traditional fantasy, is that to impress modern audience, gotta get the fuck ~out~ of usa w/ that 300 or watever k . otherwise 'the devil's gold turns to leaves.' |
18:11 |
thimbronion |
asciilifeform: Many, apparantly, are unaware of this last step and consider returning to the home country (at least in the case of China) a worst case scenario. |
18:12 |
thimbronion |
Somehow they saw all the movies, but didn't see clips of the LA riots, etc. |
18:12 |
asciilifeform |
gregorynyssa: it aint as if there were no gangsters in usa, but imho problem is 99% fictional (i.e. monster w/ which to frighten 'whitebread' suburbanites into crowding in high-tax districts and paying for mega-inflated real estate there ) |
18:13 |
asciilifeform |
there is also a tendency to confuse california-problem for whole-usa-problem |
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18:14 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000599 << well, California, Washington, other Washington, and Boston basically -- which is also where most Chinese immigrants have their sights set upon. |
18:14 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2020-10-01 18:13:46 asciilifeform: there is also a tendency to confuse california-problem for whole-usa-problem |
18:22 |
gregorynyssa |
but I totally agree, the ROI of living in those places is in fact very poor. |
18:23 |
gregorynyssa |
unless you are someone who derives immense pleasure from socializing with the sort of people who already live in those places. |
18:24 |
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asciilifeform would not live there even for money. |
18:24 |
snsabot |
(asciilifeform) 2020-09-15 asciilifeform: over the years turned down many californistan work offers, incl. 1 that was already signed by $co. simply -ev, for just about any realistic amt (for worker bees) of dough |