Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-06-21 | 2022-06-23 →
01:44 asciilifeform mats: lol, no cakes
~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~
03:05 phf some russian larper music from the 90s
03:15 phf
03:29 asciilifeform neato
03:30 asciilifeform unrelated 'fun' discovery (possib. of interest to phf) : 'usb 3.0 <-> fiber' systems apparently dunwork with usb 2.0/1.0 (mouse/kbd) , not even via hubs
03:31 asciilifeform ( apparently 3.0 is wholly separate protocol, and over entirely diff pins in connector ( asciilifeform knew this ) but! 3.0's encoding actually simpler , actually can go over '1-bit' link, hence most extant fibertrons implement ~solely~ it )
03:33 phf asciilifeform: that's because computers are a judeo-masonic abomination. disregard technology, embrace trvdition
03:33 phf
03:48 * phf mood
03:53 phf
03:59 phf
04:11 * signpost out in nc at uncle's atm to drink and plink.
04:11 signpost death to computers indeed. all we need is a few good mentats.
04:12 signpost can't even load these vids over this intermittent one bar connection. it's great.
04:12 asciilifeform 'It is by will alone I set my mind in motion...'(tm)(r)(c)
04:17 phf a process cannot be understood by stopping it. understanding must move with the flow of the process.
04:19 verisimilitude I disagree, phf.
04:20 signpost the thing about hierarchy is that there are those with whom you may not disagree.
04:20 signpost such as frank herbert.
04:20 verisimilitude Perhaps some can't, but that's not a general rule.
04:21 verisimilitude It's different here, signpost.
04:21 verisimilitude No gods, no kings, no bedtimes.
04:21 asciilifeform herbert not 100% consistent, but moar fun if one can fughet it for a spell
04:22 phf i think herbert was only good for one book, made a perfect heroes journey, then started to deconstruct it, 70s tweed jacket man style, "well, you see, noe can't really be a hero"
04:22 asciilifeform ^
04:23 * signpost rather likes the downfall of messiah. but it suits my kinks.
04:24 * asciilifeform when covided in bed, against all advice from folx who knew better: ate dune 2 -- 4, barfed mightily
04:24 phf "man acquires godhood, competently solves his problems, lives happily ever after"
04:25 phf you can't spell derrida without reeeee
04:25 signpost lol
04:25 verisimilitude When I likely had covid, asciilifeform, I merely hallucinated.
04:26 verisimilitude I thought some strange things were going to happen to me, despite being aware of my hallucinating.
04:30 phf king david talked to the genies, negotiated deals, enriched himself and his subjects, and yet the educational narrative from then on is on the dangers of attemping to repeat his feat. i wonder why that is!
04:31 verisimilitude Do as I say, not as I Jew.
04:32 asciilifeform per 'uncle al' , the seekrit of genie invocation and carpet flight may've been syrian rue (harmaline)
04:32 * asciilifeform not tried, cannot confirm
04:34 phf << it sort of recovers with the god emperor, but like tolstoy who hated beautiful people, particularly women, so /had/ to make them into vapid bimbos, who are punished in the end: says more about the author than it does about anything objective in th reality.
04:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:22:07 asciilifeform: when covided in bed, against all advice from folx who knew better: ate dune 2 -- 4, barfed mightily
04:34 asciilifeform that 'god emperor' was prolly the most mp-like character asciilifeform ever encountered in fiction
04:35 signpost power being the satanic urge which brings its own destruction is certainly slave culture of some kind.
04:35 phf including the part where tragic hero?
04:36 asciilifeform phf: possibly
04:36 verisimilitude Yes, signpost.
04:36 verisimilitude How convenient, that the good people shouldn't ever step down to the level of those who rule.
04:37 verisimilitude I just need a Pinky to go with my brain.
04:37 asciilifeform verisimilitude: didja read the b00kz re which thrd, or unrelated point ?
04:38 verisimilitude I thought we were talking about David.
04:38 asciilifeform a lolk
04:39 phf signpost: is not, ftr, inherent to christianity, possibly even quite recent invention, where genie like narratives, which were perhaps an equal part of didactic canon, come to dominate. if you e.g. read shakespear, daedalus narrative is almost entirely absent
04:41 phf shakespear who, i believe, pretty much fully documented the scope of human drama, somehow forgot to develop daedalus story? get the fuck outta here. it's not a thing. it's slave fairy tale.
04:41 verisimilitude Oh, I'll be reading a version of that in Latin soon.
04:41 verisimilitude It's told in an upcoming chapter of my book.
04:42 verisimilitude That should be fun.
04:43 phf if you git gud, as the kids say, you're gud. sometimes hubris, sometimes accident might bring you down, but it's not news worthy. there's nothing to learn from that (maybe a little bit the hubris part). yet somehow every 20th century author needs to tell you how being a god is not really being a god? have they fucking tried?
04:43 verisimilitude This reminds me of something.
04:43 verisimilitude I saw this recently: ``Don't try to be better than others; try to be better than yourself.''
04:44 signpost phf: I forget the source of a possibly apocryphal tale of an experiment with apes, but it has served as a useful symbol either way.
04:44 verisimilitude This is good advice. I'm already better than others, so I should aim to be better than I was.
04:44 signpost (slow connection)
04:45 signpost they would put extra food on a special table and punish the apes with a hose if they approached to take the food.
04:46 asciilifeform phf: the edas pov re 'gods also can have problems' -- unrelated to 'christian slave' pov, but imho interesting
04:46 signpost *punished all the apes for the transgression of one.
04:46 signpost eventually they start self-policing and beating up the apes that approach the holy table.
04:46 verisimilitude ``This is the way things are done around here.''
04:46 signpost later they remove the reward and the holy table's still defended.
04:46 asciilifeform signpost: related
04:47 signpost they rotate new apes into the cage, ones that haven't seen the punishment or the food, and they learn the "beat the ass of the table approacher" behavior just the same.
04:47 verisimilitude Yes, don't forget, signpost, they also replace the apes, and eventually none have received the punishment.
04:47 signpost right
04:48 asciilifeform is how 'culture' worx
04:48 verisimilitude We can liken this to those who enjoy the C programming language.
04:49 * asciilifeform bbl
04:51 signpost gonna hit the hay, but I quite agree that WE INVENTED GOD.
04:51 phf signpost: i like this yarn, but i believe humans have protective mechanism, that monkeys lack: some % of humans have a intentional mutation, will approach the table no matter what. e pur si muove and all that
04:51 verisimilitude Sleep well.
04:52 verisimilitude So we're the mutants, right phf?
04:52 signpost mhm. I should clarify that it is a narrow "we" that above invented.
04:52 signpost goodnight gents.
04:53 phf laters
04:53 verisimilitude So with them gone, what will we discuss, phf?
04:54 phf << yes
04:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:49:52 verisimilitude: So we're the mutants, right phf?
04:58 verisimilitude I tried to translate that sentence into Latin; here's at what I arrived:
04:58 verisimilitude NVM ERGO MONSTRA SVMVS
04:59 verisimilitude ``Thus we are the monsters?''
05:00 verisimilitude I wonder if ERGONE be appropriate.
05:03 verisimilitude I'll never forget the delightfully concise way I asked my dog if he were cold:
05:03 verisimilitude FRĪGĒSNE, Beaureguard?
05:05 phf i don't understand this form, and your umlauts don't help. i'd probably say frigus es
05:06 verisimilitude I'll explain.
05:06 verisimilitude I can make a question by appending NE.
05:06 phf ah i get it
05:07 verisimilitude FRĪGĒRE (to be cold)
05:07 verisimilitude FRĪGIDVS -A -VM (cold)
05:07 verisimilitude FRĪGEŌ (I am cold)
05:07 verisimilitude FRĪGES (thou art cold)
05:07 verisimilitude No.
05:08 verisimilitude FRĪGĒS (thou art cold)
05:08 verisimilitude FRĪGĒSNE (art thou cold)
05:08 verisimilitude ESNE FRĪGIDVS (art thou cold)
05:09 verisimilitude Latin is fun.
05:10 phf lingua morta, ita optima lingua loqi ad sui :>
05:11 verisimilitude I'll try.
05:11 verisimilitude ``A dead language, thus the best language for me to speak.''
05:12 verisimilitude I mainly don't understand SVI here, and I believe it's MORTVA.
05:13 phf sui is self, oneself
05:14 phf but my grammar is probably off
05:14 verisimilitude That's what I figured, but AD requires an accusative in all cases, from what I know.
05:14 phf best language to speak to self :)
05:14 verisimilitude We agree, phf.
05:15 verisimilitude Also, since it would be the indirect object, that would be dative.
05:15 verisimilitude The dative is SIBI.
05:16 verisimilitude Also, I didn't recognize ITA until I reread it, but it means ``in that way''.
05:18 phf conjunctions are actually easiest to recall..
05:18 phf sid et sic ita tam
05:18 verisimilitude Perhaps this be closer to correct:
05:18 verisimilitude No.
05:19 phf well, no, that changes meaning
05:19 phf the meaning was "it's a dead language, therefore" not "dead language is"
05:20 verisimilitude Oh.
05:21 verisimilitude I suppose I should stop now. I'm better at reading it, unfortunately.
05:21 verisimilitude I'll improve.
05:21 phf i wonder how long it'll take me to remember most of it..
05:23 verisimilitude Also, those are easiest to recall because they're indeclinable INDĒCLĪNĀBILE.
05:24 verisimilitude Many words ending in ``ble'' and ``ion'' are Latin in origin.
05:27 verisimilitude Even ``me'' is Latin, MĒ.
05:28 phf where are you with it at this point? can you read e.g. ovid? or cicero?
05:31 verisimilitude No.
05:31 verisimilitude I've just learned the past perfect tense, PRAETERITVM PERFECTVM.
05:34 phf quod nos amavimus qua occidimus :p
05:35 verisimilitude This is how I learned of the book I'm reading.
05:35 phf i think i messed that up
05:36 verisimilitude ``What we have loved ??? we rise.''
05:37 verisimilitude The QVA is feminine, singular, ablative of ``whom''.
05:37 phf what we have loved that we have killed
05:37 verisimilitude Well, ``who''.
05:37 phf occidere
05:38 verisimilitude Oh, not to rise, but to fall, right.
05:38 verisimilitude We get Orient and Occident from those words.
05:40 verisimilitude Oh neat, I've not learned that similar word yet, phf.
05:41 verisimilitude I grow weary of typing, but this has been fun, phf.
05:43 phf so qua is not really appropriate there, but i don't remember if i'd replace it with qui, illud or just go with hic. you can never go wrong if you go with hic
05:44 phf rule of highschool latin is that you can pretty much replace any conjuction with hic, which makes it sound latiny, but ovid would disagree
05:44 verisimilitude Well, HIC can mean ``this'' when singular, masculine, and nominative, or it can mean ``here''.
05:44 phf anyway, this is kind of like when i go to paris, if i don't disregard your lating rumblings, will probably recall most of the language in a week or two
05:45 phf *latin
05:45 verisimilitude The latter meaning is actually HĪC.
05:48 verisimilitude It amuses me how the programming board of Lainchan, my primary hangout, hasn't helped me at all; it was the literature board I rarely visit.
05:49 phf both are a lie
05:51 verisimilitude Elaborate.
05:53 phf imageboards are echo to narcissus
05:54 verisimilitude Sure; it depends.
05:57 verisimilitude Every so often, one such as I rises out from the anonymous morass.
05:58 verisimilitude I wouldn't be here if I only believed in anonymous chats, however.
06:00 verisimilitude But sure, I don't disagree phf, because one thing better than no one having names is being the only one with a name.
06:03 phf aka namefag :p
06:04 phf imageboards are also windmills to don quixote or syrens to odysseus
06:05 phf and for some it's pythia
06:07 phf but for all it's mara
06:15 phf <<
06:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 02:04:38 phf: but for all it's mara
~ 3 hours 53 minutes ~
10:09 adlai|text << obligatory namedrop of Daniel Dennett's book, Breaking the Spell, which describes monotheism (and several other forms of supernatural belief) as emergent phenomena, rather than inventions.
10:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:48:39 signpost: gonna hit the hay, but I quite agree that WE INVENTED GOD.
10:10 adlai|text he could've equally named it "The Selfish Meme", although it's quite obvious that he did everything he could for that book to still reach audiences who had been alienated by Dawkins's "The God Delusion".
10:11 adlai|text << am I the only regular here who's read all six, and even one of the posthumous imitations by his son?
10:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:31:34 phf: << it sort of recovers with the god emperor, but like tolstoy who hated beautiful people, particularly women, so /had/ to make them into vapid bimbos, who are punished in the end: says more about the author than it does about anything objective in th reality.
10:12 adlai|text the relationship between Heretics and Chapterhouse to the previous four, is remarkably similar to the relationship between Tehanu and the original Earthsea Trilogy.
10:13 adlai|text although I must admit that Heretics was pretty good, despite stinking strongly of the author attempting affirmative action to rebalance the gender stereotypes of the earlier books.
10:14 adlai|text imo, Chapterhouse is terrible, although for reasons unrelated to gender of the character carrying forward the plot. it simply reads like a book that the author was pressured to send off to the publisher before dying.... "this is not writing, this is only typing".
10:16 adlai|text I freely admit that the reason I had patience to read God Emperor thoroughly, instead of skimming along, is that I read the last ~quarter of Children while under the influence of no prizes for guessing what.
10:18 adlai|text and nobody even ever told me, "if you're gonna spend an entire acid trip reading, then do so after having read the first 2.75 books of the Dune series, then finish Children of Dune while blitzed". it was just blind luck.
~ 5 hours 23 minutes ~
15:41 asciilifeform << asciilifeform had occasion to observe several times engl-speaking folx learning their 1st reasonably intact -- with declensions, etc lang, and always reaction similar to this: 'where was this my whole life, wai no one told me' etc
15:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 01:01:02 verisimilitude: FRĪGĒSNE, Beaureguard?
15:41 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-09-29 asciilifeform: this is btw a long-standing q in asciilifeform's head -- wai is it that lang knobs only ever seem to ~fall off~ in archaeologically-visible period. almost as if they were only formed in 'supernovae' of some sort, and then afterwards only decay
15:42 asciilifeform ( well, almost always. )
15:45 asciilifeform << tbf the monkeys may have similar mutants, but the timescale of the experiment won't likely show'em. ( and arguably similar 'experiments' with humans -- likewise not always show'em )
15:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:49:05 phf: signpost: i like this yarn, but i believe humans have protective mechanism, that monkeys lack: some % of humans have a intentional mutation, will approach the table no matter what. e pur si muove and all that
15:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:45:54 verisimilitude: We can liken this to those who enjoy the C programming language.
15:46 phf asciilifeform: computing field is rife with the kind, naggum didn't want towrite C so much he died of ulcer in protest! :)
15:47 asciilifeform lolyes
15:47 asciilifeform (or was, at any rate)
15:48 asciilifeform the current gen of 'monkeys' for the most part aint even aware the 'table' is there, however.
15:54 asciilifeform << 'now don't tell me that part of the story when the cowboy falls in love / when he traded in his pistol and his saddle and the stars above / when the candle's burnin' down, when midnight comes around / when the best that he can hole for / is to be laughing when he finally hits the ground ...'(tm)(r)
15:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 06:10:16 adlai|text: the relationship between Heretics and Chapterhouse to the previous four, is remarkably similar to the relationship between Tehanu and the original Earthsea Trilogy.
15:54 asciilifeform * hope for
~ 15 minutes ~
16:10 phf i'm trying to recall what was the lyceister conclusion on latin, if the grammar was more elaborate than russian or not. i think there's some compound past tense forms that exist that are better formalized, but that also exist in archaic ru forms
16:12 phf but also there's some difference between proper latin as taught and ovid latin. when i was studying queens english was also under the impression that there's multiple past tense forms, came to america, realized that "we waz kangz" is all the grammar one really needs
16:19 verisimilitude Some of us still speak English and not ebonics, phf.
16:32 verisimilitude It helped to properly learn English before beginning with Latin; I never struggled with TV ``you'' (singular) and VOS ``you'' (plural).
~ 22 minutes ~
16:54 asciilifeform "we waz kangz" << oblig. 'Zehn Orks sennen wir gewesen...'
~ 20 minutes ~
17:15 * asciilifeform in unrelated lulz, picked up phone: 'it's macrofab co. wai you not ordered moar boards? we miss you'
17:21 verisimilitude How amusing.
17:30 asciilifeform recall, moar or less equiv. of their whole line can be had for less than gently used toyota, lol
17:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-17 16:44:26 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. irons, apparently a complete chinese-style production like (x-y paste jetter, pick'n'place, conveyor, reflow oven) can be had naodays for ~15k $ , comes in 1 shipping container
17:32 phf ... fabbing custom pirate john deere boards for the amish and the heartland folk using a chinese manufacturing shipping container in the backyard. i think this is the kind of cyberpunk i'm ok with
17:34 * asciilifeform would be surprised if no one is already doing ^
17:35 asciilifeform johndeere aint exactly 'lispm'-obscure
17:35 asciilifeform iirc they're nearly unusable, to smalltime operator, w/out cracking
17:36 phf asciilifeform: i think it mostly follows the principle of "мыши плакали, кололись, но продолжали жрать кактус"
17:36 asciilifeform a.
17:37 asciilifeform crapple-style
17:38 phf heartland are the last vestiges of law and order also
17:38 asciilifeform ( for other folx: 'the mice cried, pricked themselves, but continued to munch on the cactus' )
~ 1 hours 35 minutes ~
19:14 asciilifeform meanwhile in again wholly unrelated lulz, this was purportedly achieved by some folx, 'outta matchsticks and acorns', but asciilifeform broke teeth attempting to get the megatonne of gnarly deps standing up on any of his boxen, so problem remains open.
19:14 dulapbot (pest) 2022-06-18 asciilifeform: fugheting about illustrations for a moment, what asciilifeform was looking for is an item which generates something maximally approximating the current html form but from latex src, rather than the enfuriatingly moronic markdown
19:19 phf asciilifeform: oh you just need
19:20 phf it's a standalone ocaml code, properly implements tex language, and then has a bunch of latex predefined handlers
19:21 phf also lets you define own
19:21 asciilifeform phf: have you tried it with latexisms containing graphics ? (does it do the Right Thing , i.e. shit'em to bitmaps and embed links to same)
19:21 phf has formula to html and formula to image mode (in fact lets you mark regions for "to image" and it'll spit out image for you)
19:22 asciilifeform a hm then maybe yes
19:22 * asciilifeform will try it
19:22 phf asciilifeform: i maintained cmucl's documentation with it for a bit
19:22 asciilifeform neato
19:23 phf and with cmucl's case was tricky, because you had to make hevea spit out decent html from legacy latex, without touching latex (for philosophical, cut in stone reasons)
19:23 phf but if you're writing from scratch, then..
19:23 asciilifeform defo seems interesting. how does it handle links ?
19:24 phf i did this riscv spec in an hour for friends doing moscow state university course it's very rought draft, but you can kind of see the quality. somebody else took it over and made it shiny
19:25 asciilifeform and lol that was fast...
19:26 asciilifeform phf: very good quality, by all appearances; nao if only asciilifeform knew how to get that thing to build, lol
19:27 phf asciilifeform: i build it manually, but then i also have higher tolerance for that kind of bullshit. recall i made eulora build on mac :>
19:27 * asciilifeform goes to build manually
19:27 phf good luck! :D
19:28 phf but also i'll reminde you that
19:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-21 23:31:11 phf: asciilifeform: that's because computers are a judeo-masonic abomination. disregard technology, embrace trvdition
19:28 asciilifeform aha
19:28 asciilifeform lol, this time :
19:28 asciilifeform File "", line 61, characters 20-34:
19:28 asciilifeform Error: Unbound module Stdlib
19:28 asciilifeform Command exited with code 2.
19:30 phf i wonder why emerge fails, i imagine you have old versions of both ocaml and hevea, should play nice together
19:30 * asciilifeform prolly paying for the sin of already having a 2000s ver. of ocaml on that box, lol
19:30 phf aaah
19:30 asciilifeform last paste was from vendor's current tgz
19:30 phf right
19:33 phf ok, i just checked, hevea-2.36 builds with The OCaml toplevel, version 4.12.1 and ocamlbuild 0.14.1
19:35 asciilifeform phf: ty
19:41 * asciilifeform after the traditional gentoo whack-a-mole -- built...
19:43 asciilifeform phf: notbad. (at least for basic helloworld turd w/ sections, toc, etc) worx outtathebox!!
19:48 * asciilifeform ~2decade ago (recreationally) picked up ocaml, still somewhat fond of it despite well-known gnarls. considered & rejected it at one pt for #t worx
19:48 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-03-03 asciilifeform: ^ ocaml, say, is right out
19:50 asciilifeform loox pretty good, tho, if stood next to various 'modern' atrocities, imho
19:50 phf if nothing else, it's a solid constructor, missing bits can be added, etc.
19:50 * asciilifeform was surprised that their most recent compiler built without much complaint on dulap-gentoo
19:51 phf ocaml (despite janestreet and their "cool new stdlib") sort of missed the cool kids transformation. mostly hacked on by grownups
19:51 phf we can forgive them being french
19:52 * asciilifeform associates it in head with fr islands 'that time forgot'
19:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-11 14:14:45 asciilifeform: wonders whether in some forsaken shithole there is still a uni where 'we didn't know the war ended' and lisps etc. ( maybe inria ? iirc as late as '10 was )
19:53 * asciilifeform wonders if they have a reasonable gc nao
19:57 phf i'm still curious about e.g. mlton that allegedly barely leaks, because aggressive whole program analysis, but i've never had a chance to test that conjecture
19:58 phf also a particularly eager hiki ought to restore stalin scheme back to running for same reasons. "gc so rare you might as well just kill the process from time to time"
19:59 * asciilifeform at one time suggested gcless scheme for 'standard scripting lang'
19:59 dulapbot Logged on 2020-07-18 19:55:54 asciilifeform: trinque: since you mentioned script langs: considering, after ffa, to attempt a 'dethompsonizing' simple gc-less scheme in asm, in style of 'M' as a scripting lang. can't speak for erryone, but i've wanted a <32kB scripting lang that 'compiles with bare hands' for many yrs.
20:00 phf checkout pre-scheme, from scheme48 stack. s48 was at one time written by competent hackers, borrowed heavily from common lisp, at the bottom written in its own system scheme dialect
20:01 asciilifeform phf: was 1 of the places where asciilifeform cribbed the idea, lol
20:01 phf but again not being a scheme person i have no idea how good of code
20:02 asciilifeform ( there were a coupla of these in '90s , tho asciilifeform does not remember finding one where the sexpr eater is implemented in hand-sewn bytecode to start off with rather than c )
20:02 phf i can easily pick up any random new language but find scheme frustrating. couldn't you make lisp1, lexucal etc. but use maclisp naming conventions?
20:02 asciilifeform phf: seems to be rule rather than exception that folx making new things succumb to temptation to rename errything. (recall e.g. 'arc' and its astonishingly gnarly shorthands)
20:04 * asciilifeform not innocent of this, having, in his forthlike tossed out or perverted much of traditional forthish notation
20:05 phf chuck moore tossed iso forth entirely, yet in colorforth retained same names for things that stayed. i think that is the right way
20:06 phf but then i generally share this sanskrit like notion of symbol attached to meaning, that permiates old lisp old forth just generally old communities. "when i invented IF" etc.
20:07 phf what's his name, erlang guy, armstrong, had some similar points, argued for global namespace of functions, that one can load into own code, where, having given enough thought to the name one is then careful to attach and maintain its proper meaning
20:08 * asciilifeform so far quite impressed w/ 'hevea' proggy; ty again phf ! asciilifeform nao fully intends to rewrite pest doc in subj
20:08 asciilifeform rare thing, a tool that actually worx 100% from 1st trigger pull
20:10 phf it has some rough edges (and that's what they are rough edges, can be worked out with some attention to detail), but generally i have a very pleased feeling about hevea
20:11 * asciilifeform generally fond of above angle, trvdition!, etc. but very few sane things in the field in fact lived long enuff to edge into 'becoming sanskrits'. commonlisp, arguably; and ada had this flavour, was part of the appeal from asciilifeform's pov
20:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-21 23:31:11 phf: asciilifeform: that's because computers are a judeo-masonic abomination. disregard technology, embrace trvdition
20:17 verisimilitude I can confirm this, but it has also saved me from common misnomers.
20:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 16:00:29 asciilifeform: phf: seems to be rule rather than exception that folx making new things succumb to temptation to rename errything. (recall e.g. 'arc' and its astonishingly gnarly shorthands)
20:19 verisimilitude It's a matter of respect; I don't respect most of computing, and so opportunistically rename things.
20:20 verisimilitude Other renaming is likewise.
20:22 phf i don't respect scheme, but if i were to write it will follow their conventions
20:22 verisimilitude That's some respect.
20:22 phf renamers are also the people who port clojure list manipulation to elisp and then start pushing it into all the projects
20:23 verisimilitude It's Elisp.
~ 31 minutes ~
20:54 * asciilifeform draws a sharp distinction b/w renaming ops in a system you baked from scratch vs. 'slipping clojurisms into elisp' but grants that from a 'victim's' pov there may be little diff
20:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 16:01:31 asciilifeform: not innocent of this, having, in his forthlike tossed out or perverted much of traditional forthish notation
20:56 asciilifeform e.g. postscript didn't keep all forth notation either.
20:56 asciilifeform and afaik no one's ever complained
20:57 asciilifeform ( see also e.g. )
20:58 phf i suspect two points, that semasiological consistency is a novel concept, and that one is inclined to argue against it by simply having commited a sin against more than once
20:59 asciilifeform in general imho phf's 'sanskrit' concept is applicable widely -- when yer baking sumthing, think, are you contributing to a trvdition and 'such that the field may actually advance', or merely carving yer initials into telephone poles ?
20:59 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-04-03 asciilifeform: ( consider naggum's description -- 'our field does not actually advance, because we are broken people who do not learn from mistakes' or how was it. )
21:01 asciilifeform phf: dunno that 'novel concept', all kindsa folx had quite similar notion (e.g. the talmudists)
21:01 phf *novel concept to computer science world
21:01 asciilifeform there yes
21:01 phf and by novel i of course don't even mean i invented it, but subject is rarely discussed. "nobody objects" etc.
21:02 phf i suspect iverson and his students are the people who thought and talked about it the most, but their esoteric take on subj might've obscured the fundamental point
21:02 asciilifeform moar like 'no one had a framework in which to formulate philosophical objection'
21:02 asciilifeform (vs. merely 'personal objection', 'ugh this stinks')
21:03 asciilifeform ( 'philosophical objection' is how you've a chance of making the other fella ~think~, rather than reply with a 'no you stink' obv.)
21:05 asciilifeform this btw is good % of ' what did asciilifeform learn from naggum ' -- formerly asciilifeform was 'zoological' proponent of scheme pov, and has little patience for 'cl culture' (such as it was) , but after eating herr n 's cll thrds led to think
21:06 asciilifeform and imho much of what was 'led to think' about , in fact covered by phf's 'semasiological consistency'
21:07 asciilifeform ( see e.g. )
21:07 verisimilitude What does this ``siological'' mean?
21:08 verisimilitude Oh, nevermind.
21:08 asciilifeform prolly s/.../semiological
21:08 verisimilitude I found it.
21:08 asciilifeform a++
21:09 verisimilitude Consistency is less important than utility, unto a point.
21:09 asciilifeform unto a point.
21:10 verisimilitude Common Lisp is less consistent, but more practical.
21:11 asciilifeform 'trucks over 5 tonnes will experimentally drive on left side of road first'(tm)(r)(ro)
21:11 verisimilitude As the only APL programmer here, I do look at my such programs with a smile, more often than others.
21:11 asciilifeform verisimilitude: and betcha it aint simply because they fit better on yer screen, lol
21:11 verisimilitude However, I also get heavy satisfaction from the Ada programs I write.
21:12 asciilifeform prolly for same reason neh
21:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 16:09:14 asciilifeform: generally fond of above angle, trvdition!, etc. but very few sane things in the field in fact lived long enuff to edge into 'becoming sanskrits'. commonlisp, arguably; and ada had this flavour, was part of the appeal from asciilifeform's pov
21:13 asciilifeform ... of course one runs the obv. risk. take the trisectors and their 'compass & straight-edge' straightjacket.
21:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 20:05:38 dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-20 16:58:28 dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-07-06 erlehmann:
21:13 verisimilitude Perhaps, perhaps for different reasons.
21:14 verisimilitude Machine code hacking in the MMC is also delightful to me.
21:14 asciilifeform ( the very same greeks had arbitrarily precise trisection algo via 'neusis', but declared 'fishing with dynamite' by no less than plato, and fell into disuse , 'cuz not w/ compass & straightedge' etc )
21:15 asciilifeform neusis trisection, for n00bs
21:16 asciilifeform and elsewhere
21:17 verisimilitude So, less consistent, but more practical, literally to a point.
21:18 asciilifeform well, not consistent w/ 'compass&straightedge' obv
21:19 phf << that's not the meaning of the phrase that i'm proposing though, because you probably went to wikipedia for the meaning of semasiology, but like anthropology, or for that mater s.'s parent science semiotics, s. studies symbols in time within their historic context. i could've just said semantic consistency, and that would've expressed what you thought i expressed, but i
21:19 phf intentionally used a high falutin' word, because. semasiology consistency is about symbolic consistency in time and within historic context. on its own common lisp doesn't need to define its functions with "defun", but for semasiological reasons it does
21:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 17:07:55 verisimilitude: Common Lisp is less consistent, but more practical.
21:19 * asciilifeform not went to pedopedia and shudders to picture what might find there re subj
21:20 verisimilitude No; I loathe Wikipedia.
21:21 phf common lisp is /highly/ consistent from that perspective with standards writer giving semiotic concerns their due. that's why there's e.g. cadr AND first in the language
21:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: concept is, approx, that one in fact can win from following in a tradition, and, similarly, build taller ladder for future folx to climb by doing so
21:22 verisimilitude I understood.
21:22 asciilifeform softwarism is fulla ~remarkably~ short and shaky ladders
21:22 asciilifeform and, consequently, folx who aint even aware that it is possible to climb higher than one can stretch neck, if you will
21:23 verisimilitude In hardware, the ladder is stronger and longer, but eventually contains traces of nitroglycerin.
21:23 asciilifeform moar 'taller pile of chairs'
21:24 asciilifeform but imho no reason to torture the analogy, oughta be obv at this pt
21:24 verisimilitude I won't get arrested for torturing an analogy, though.
21:24 asciilifeform sure but it already confessed, lol
21:27 asciilifeform folx who have 0 lived experience 'winning from' a tradition unsurprisingly inclined to categorically piss, 'hey, wainot tcp over horseback courier' etc.
21:29 asciilifeform from the roughly 1870-1970 century when 'things were happenin'!' technologically, for the most part only this hubris remains, 'fuck the past' etc
21:29 asciilifeform w/out any of the 'happenin''
21:30 phf vienna club wore suits and ties though :p
21:30 asciilifeform aaha
21:31 asciilifeform end of that road tho is 'lift shaft latrines'.
21:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 14:33:21 phf: asciilifeform: you're probably not familiar with specific events i'm refering to. in this case tribals are firmly in the traditional social fabric, i'm not talking obama job creation, they drifted from hills towards green pastures, which is their way, but "no one could spare for'em a bullet" ("we can it zimbabwe now don't we?" -- blood diamonds), so simply .. moved in into offices and administrative buildings. "at f
21:32 phf i don't have much speculation on subj, while end of that road, actively trying to figure it out
21:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-13 14:58:02 phf: << yeah i looked at thread, i don't know anything about quigley otherwise, had to look up who he was for message above. i've long been on rhodesia kick, so i've been reading whatever historic material to put it in context. south africa funded the last plays by the english lordship, and then it all suddenly stopped. yohanesburg now.
21:32 phf *why end of that road
21:32 * asciilifeform recalls asimov's optimistic lulztale re 'and they fughot how to add', fella couldn't picture lift latrines
21:32 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-03-28 asciilifeform: << subj. asimov.
21:33 phf kek
21:33 asciilifeform painted portrait that indestructible ancient machines would arithmetize for'em,
21:34 asciilifeform fella had nfi re 'aah but didja update!' lulz
21:40 verisimilitude So, I've been thinking about Tabular Programming constantly, really, and I think it would be feasible to have the little language asciilifeform wants by building something around the approach.
21:41 asciilifeform the 'short ladders' is much of wai asciilifeform interested in preserving whatever remains of the old lispm culture, despite fact that on any kinda close examination was a handful of good ideas on a kilometre-tall pile of atrocities
21:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-11 11:41:04 phf: it's also ancient development practices, which i'm usually all for, but this is the case where some moved on made sense. global package level state in dynamic variables kind of things
21:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 16:46:58 asciilifeform: always found interesting that the commercial lispm's were extremely 'conventional' internally, rather than e.g. 'scheme83'-style apparatus with iron gc , cons-only memory, etc
21:41 verisimilitude I can see myself building a compiler that knows the few basic operations, such as array indexing, and making it possible to get easily-audited code.
21:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ftr it remains a mystery to asciilifeform how the linked piece re 'tabular' might lead to above
21:43 verisimilitude Imagine that program as machine code, say.
21:43 verisimilitude There would be tables, and relatively few instructions to access them to get a result.
21:43 asciilifeform what's one to do with inherently serial problems ?
21:43 verisimilitude Give an example.
21:43 asciilifeform arbitrarily say, sqrt(x) via newton's method.
21:44 verisimilitude Oh, that would either need to be the compiler's responsibility or the programmer would have a large table of the possible answers.
21:45 verisimilitude For any number, it may be ugly, but for just a few thousand, it's manageable.
21:47 verisimilitude The main issue I see is how this would effectively prohibit the programmer from defining new data structures; the compiler would need to know about all of them.
21:48 verisimilitude Does this make sense?
21:52 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it makes as much sense as this 'computer' lol
21:52 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-01-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i was a small boy, my elder brother taught me a lesson once:
21:52 asciilifeform wtf is the use of 'table of few thousand answers' if you need to sqrt(x) for even 32bit x's
21:52 asciilifeform (not even speaking of longer ones)
21:53 asciilifeform whatcha even doin' with a computer then? straight to log table in leather binding, 'napier's bones' etc
21:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-17 17:10:23 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you see yerself as involved in pure mathematics, rather than aiming to actually solve sumthing in physical reality w/ a comp on sumthing resembling human timescale -- the machine is arguably a distraction, and you oughta be working w/ pen & paper
21:54 verisimilitude No, that's fair; the approach I outline myself would be to reduce the size of that table, somehow.
21:54 verisimilitude I've not thought about it enough.
21:57 asciilifeform that's the thing, serial problem, you can't reduce it, the problem dun decompose that way
21:57 verisimilitude I'm currently poisoning myself by reading something stupid, and it got to me, apparently.
21:57 asciilifeform e.g. multiplication decomposes that way (at some additional cost)
21:58 asciilifeform but universe didn't ship with a guarantee that ~errything~ does.
21:58 verisimilitude Well, let's assume I can't find some good way to attack such serial problems; so what?
21:58 verisimilitude Don't do that then, right?
21:58 asciilifeform ( e.g. division doesn't )
21:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: sadly very few things in fact decompose into e.g. 'fetch from this-here 256 #s'
21:59 verisimilitude I'll remind asciilifeform the universe also doesn't ship with guarantees about cryptography and the like, but this he doesn't mind.
21:59 asciilifeform mind, don't mind, makes 0 diff does it lol
21:59 verisimilitude Yes, exactly.
22:00 asciilifeform 'нравится, не нравится -- терпи моя красавица'
22:00 asciilifeform (tm)(r)
22:00 verisimilitude I'm often told ``It's fine.'' and so enjoy responding ``It doesn't matter if it be fine.''.
22:00 asciilifeform when yer bringing a new crackpottery tho, gotta shoulder the load of making it look even vaguely 'win'
22:01 verisimilitude I need more time.
22:01 asciilifeform ... otherwise reads like knuth's 'Potrzebie system of weights and measures' joak, lol
22:01 asciilifeform aite
22:01 verisimilitude I'll divert resources from being a playboy secret agent.
22:01 asciilifeform a++
22:02 verisimilitude Ah, how dare asciilifeform so vividly show me how the uninitiated could view my work; it stings.
22:03 asciilifeform tbh can't show 'how uninitiated' , only 'how initiated' lul
22:03 verisimilitude I so clearly see how tabular programming could be viewed as a joke now.
22:03 verisimilitude It's not, but it stings.
22:04 asciilifeform there's nuffin new about it tho, is entirely how e.g. trig was implemented on '70s-'80s pocket calcs
22:04 verisimilitude Yes, but it's not exactly common nowadays.
22:04 asciilifeform ... or for that matter, asciilifeform's father's shelf fulla lookup tables and logarithmic rulers
22:05 verisimilitude There's one thing (most) machines do (in most cases) reasonably well: remember.
22:05 asciilifeform the 'table' approach worx, where it worx, and yer cpu likely contains e.g. 4bit multiplication table. but in a finite universe with finite 'c' you can't, lol, reduce all computation to it
22:06 asciilifeform and attempts to try will indeed look like joak
22:06 verisimilitude Well, it's not only arrays, strictly.
22:06 verisimilitude I also use tries now, as an example.
22:07 verisimilitude The ``tabular'' part refers to filling SOME data structure and then only reading from it.
22:08 asciilifeform for a sane take on what verisimilitude (might be) angling at, see also 'hashlife' ( e.g. )
22:08 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: Framedragger: 'hashlife' was interesting because there are not so many 'martian' breakthroughs -- multiple-orders-of-magnitude speedups -- in algo world.
22:08 verisimilitude There's one problem which can't reasonably be structured as a table of answers, but can partially, and I like the idea of running a one-dimensional automaton using this table over the data to arrive at the answer.
22:09 asciilifeform ( wai manually 'compress' time&space, when can persuade the machine to do it ! )
22:09 asciilifeform let it find the compressibles.
22:09 verisimilitude I've never thought of hashlife in this light, but will mull it over now.
22:10 asciilifeform is exacly in that light that it (borders on) qualitative breakthrough in computation, rather than dusty curio.
22:10 verisimilitude One thing is certain above all else, asciilifeform: Less code is best.
22:10 asciilifeform hard to less than 0 eh
22:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-01 17:31:36 asciilifeform: 'best machine is no machine'(tm)(r)(altschuller)
22:10 verisimilitude -1
22:11 asciilifeform lol
22:11 * asciilifeform highly recs to verisimilitude to read gosper's piece. and try w/ own hands
22:12 asciilifeform afaik nobody admitted publicly (outside of #t) to 'getting' it, contemporaries thought it was a curio.
22:13 verisimilitude Link to it.
22:13 * asciilifeform at 1st when learned of it, could not even locate a copy on www, had to visit a (today -- mostly empty, was decimated) library
22:13 verisimilitude Oh.
22:13 asciilifeform verisimilitude:
22:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 18:06:11 asciilifeform: for a sane take on what verisimilitude (might be) angling at, see also 'hashlife' ( e.g. )
22:13 verisimilitude Oh, his name was Gosper.
22:13 verisimilitude I've already read it.
22:14 verisimilitude I've read it from that link.
22:14 verisimilitude I'll read it again later.
22:17 * asciilifeform must bbl
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~
23:29 verisimilitude Say, I don't know the ins and outs of animal husbandry; I must be so silly.
23:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 17:30:27 asciilifeform: recalls asimov's optimistic lulztale re 'and they fughot how to add', fella couldn't picture lift latrines
23:31 verisimilitude Besides, in a purely formal domain, machines truly are better than men in almost every conceivable way.
23:31 verisimilitude ``They forgot how to manually draw silicon schematics.''
23:44 verisimilitude I'll admit it took a few minutes for me to recall how to do long-division properly; I usually use ratios, so I've probably not done it in years; does this make me stupid?
23:45 verisimilitude The story was also written before stochastic algorithms were very popular, apparently.
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